In conversation Fireside with Web Existentialist – Eric Bailey – 3/12/2025

WEBVTT
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could be a pair of David Swallow underpants.
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Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, that's in the private collection.
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I don't actually have that published, but I do
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have a private collection of certain items, items
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for the more discerning collector. Okay. Roomy
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and as comfortable as the shirts, and you definitely
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didn't pay me to say this. Moving swiftly on.
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Okay. So I've got a load of questions. If you,
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if you feel uncomfortable, I have any question
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or you don't, you know, just say fuck off basically.
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And that would be fine. That will be, I will
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understand that you don't want to ask that question.
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It's, I mean, they're not overly personal, but
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you know, what we do and work and our lives,
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especially since we, well, you, you do a lot
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of presenting and I present occasionally, but.
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We're on social media. And so people know things
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about us and we, you know, convey certain aspects
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of our private lives publicly. Yeah. Yeah. I
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mean, open book for better or for worse, just
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usually. Okay. So, oh, see, this is what happens.
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I just forget what I'm doing. What I will do
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first, and this is. as i say you don't have to
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pick the from under each of the characters but
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now share now let me know all right i'm gonna
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do it this way i'll i can uh i can quickly ah
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no you're not supposed to see that um okay so
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i don't think you saw it anyway and what makes
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it worse is that when i have the screen screen
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sharing on it doesn't i have to actually push
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a button in order to see my um see my taskbar
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which is really annoying okay so fine folks yes
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so there we are so this is the what we name is
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the Rose Gallery. It's just an aperitif to our
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further conversations. So, first thing asked,
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and it's not a competition, it doesn't really
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matter if you do or do not, but can you name
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the people on this Rose Gallery? So, from top
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left. That individual is I don't know their face,
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so I'm not sure. How could you not know Dr. Swallow's
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face? I use it all the time. That was him when
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he was in Austria on holiday or something. I'm
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wearing an Austrian hat. The next person? That's
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Stuart Hay, if I'm not mistaken. No, it's not.
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That's Ian Lloyd. He does. try to look a lot
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like Stuart Hay at certain times. I don't know
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why. I mean, I think he himself has a fine visage
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and he should just accept the fact. But no, that's
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Ian Lloyd and that was taken from CSUN 2024,
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I think. The next person, you can't not know.
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That's Mr Lauke. Yeah, Patrick Lor... Well, the
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way I pronounce his name, I don't think it's
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correct, but I just always pronounce it that
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way, and I say Lorcan, but it is Lauca or something,
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or Lorca or something. That was from TPAC. See,
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I've just got loads of photos, so it gives me
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an excuse to put those up, especially of Dave
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and Pat, and also quite a few of Lloydy these
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days. That was in TPAC 2020. Four, I think, in,
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where was it? In Seville. Very nice. Fancy. I'm
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sure that you recognize the next person, but
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maybe you don't. It's the good witch, Glenda.
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Yes, yes. Well, the goodness is debatable, but
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the witch part, no. Sorry. I always say these
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things about people. Which is which run through.
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Yeah, it is Glenda Sims. And the next person.
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I honestly don't know. And that's that is that
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is that is Cynthia Shelley. So when when I release
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the interview, you'll be able to recognize it
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because you've got over an hour. What about the
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second row? First person on the second row. They
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look vaguely familiar, but I'm not sure. I have
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that shirt. That's a guy called James Craig,
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also known as James Craig. Yeah, I know James
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Craig. I just don't know what he looks like.
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One of the giants of accessibility at Apple.
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And the next person? I don't know that person.
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now that is ted i can't remember his second name
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it's well it evades me i do know it but it's
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it's ted and he was into it he used to work it
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ted drake ted drake exactly and he's very much
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involved in the the uh csun um organizing speakers
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for csun stuff like that yeah so that's ted drake
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thank you uh the next person see i i know there's
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some you know ringers in here yeah it's funny
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just like you know like some of these people
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i don't know by face but i know them by their
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writing so it's like yeah but back um that's
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jared right jared carlin yes uh i i've known
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jared for years now he used to he used to work
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at wells fargo and tpg uh used to have wells
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fargo as a as a uh customer And I met him through
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that. But yeah, we always have a drink and stuff
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at CSUN and wherever I see him, which is usually
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at a conference. And he's going to be a future
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participant or interviewer. So there's something
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to look forward to. He's a really nice guy, very
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cluey. I've noticed he's been doing a number
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of, it's not like online training that he's been
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doing through some. Yeah. I can't remember what
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the name of the organization is, but yeah. So
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I've noticed that. Do you know the next person?
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Is that Jenny? I think. No. Okay. Then I don't
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know. It is one of the owners. I'll give you
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a clue. It's one of Glenda's bosses. Big bosses.
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Oh, oh my gosh. I'm blanking on it. Petey, right?
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Yeah, Petey Kumar. Yep, okay. And I had a meeting
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with her about something or other at CSUN last
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year, and I took that shot. The next one? That's
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Natalie. Yeah, that's Natalie. She's a future
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hot seater. And, well, everybody knows this guy.
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Nobody wants to know, but everybody knows him.
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I am cursed with the knowledge of RZA recognizing
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that face. That's Adrian. Yeah, he looks very
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thoughtful there. I would say more like he looks
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like he's trying to figure out how to beat you
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up. Oh, maybe. Yeah, that was at XSVTO's CSUN.
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Sorry, XSVTO conference. Where was it? In Toronto,
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that was last year. But I used to work with Adrian
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in years gone by, and we've remained firm friends
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ever since. And, yeah, he seems to have a – everybody
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seems to know him. The next person, this is one
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of those people that you may not know. This is
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killing me because this is somebody else. I also
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recognize the face, and it's – I don't know the
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name off the top of my head. I mean, when his
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name first comes to me, it's Humberto Echo, but
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it's not. It's actually Joe Humbert. Okay. And
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he is somebody else I used to work with that
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is involved in, he specializes in mobile accessibility
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with native applications. And he is involved
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at the W3C with the development of the mobile
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accessibility task force, the work they're doing.
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So I've got a number of pictures of him because
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he likes some of the T -shirts that I made, especially
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ones involving Dr. Swallow. So don't ask me why,
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but he does. They are publicly available. His
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check's clear, so it's all good. Yeah, exactly.
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And then, do you know the next person? I didn't
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recognize him when I met him. I've got to confess,
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the next three, their faces look familiar, but
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I don't know their names. That's absolutely fine.
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I didn't recognize... I was sitting next to this
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guy in the middle at the bar, and... It's only
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because he started to talk that I realized who
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it was. It's a guy called Ricky Huntsman, who
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I've managed for years and works at TPG and is
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an Australian guy. I've known him for years and
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years, but I didn't recognize him in the flesh,
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so to speak. So I subscribe to Ricky's RSS feed,
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and I've definitely cooked meals he's put out
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for his recipes. Oh, really? He has good recipes,
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too. Yeah, I'm unaware of his recipes, but I
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know, like, he's one of the people at TPG that
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I enjoy his articles. And one of the things I
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liked about the TPG blog was that it had good
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technical articles and it wasn't, well, originally
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the TPG blog was just technical stuff. bifurcated
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and there's a marketing blog and there's a technical
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blog, but I really, and the technical blog is
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still that. And so you've got good people writing
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good, insightful information and sharing it with
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the community, which is what we like. And Ricky
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is one of those people that does it. Then, so
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this is not a particularly good photo. We're
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at Seesaw, the one I'm talking about now. This
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is Sarah Horton. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You probably
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know her name because she's written a number
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of books. Yeah, just incredible writer. Anything
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she puts out, I'm there. Well, that's Sarah Horton.
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Again, we used to work together for years. I
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think she works at some university now, but she
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got... I don't know if they got married. I don't
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know if they did. But anyway, she is, her partner
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is David Sloan, who I also used to work with
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and still works at TBG. That picture was actually
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from a, we were at a reception. I hate to say
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this now, but it was a, well, I don't hate to
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say it, but because it was a. audio eye reception
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at um at CSUN I mean essentially it was it was
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a drinks in Mike's room so we were there and
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and for some reason um I've got pictures of it
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to prove it but she she was wearing uh David
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Swallow's shoes at some point and and dancing
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in those shoes these shoes are huge I've also
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got pictures of him trying to put on her shoes,
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which are about four sizes too small. It was
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an interesting night. This was the same night.
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Lloydy was there and he'd had a few and he fell
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over and like just mashed his face into the...
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It was high up. It was like it was on the 20th
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floor or something. And I was concerned because
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the window, the door was open onto the balcony.
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I was concerned he was going to go out and...
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and topple over, but he didn't. But it was, yeah,
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anyway. So that's Sarah. And the last person
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is actually probably most people don't know him.
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That is a guy called Shane Passiello, son of
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Mike Passiello. Shane works for... level access
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or something he's a project manager he used to
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be a project manager tpg and i really enjoyed
00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:22.429
his company um and uh so and i saw that photo
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i thought i'll add shame because i'm um it helps
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with my memory these things so we have a mixed
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bag of people there that you know and don't know
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but you know this is well i would say the uh
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I would say there's a cross section of people
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that are involved in accessibility, but also
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it's, yeah. I noticed there's a lot of blokes
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involved in accessibility. There was also a fair
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amount of women, but also basically white blokes
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like you and I, except that you were younger
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and better looking than I, but. Flattering gets
00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:08.100
you everywhere, Steve. Yeah. So, so anyway, so
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I will, let's get to the meat of it now. Once
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we, This was like the icebreaker. Hopefully you're
00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:19.440
feeling comfortable. I will stop that sharing
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.340
and we're back to you and I. And what happened
00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:28.139
before was that I accidentally flashed my questions.
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But anyway, we can start. So I'm not going to
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show you the questions because that's part of
00:15:38.860 --> 00:15:43.100
it. The mystery, yeah. Oh, the magic of being
00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:48.379
an interviewer. So, Eric, what the fuck is going
00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:59.080
on in your country? Yeah, well, we're in the,
00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:04.080
like, I think the twilight years of a late capital
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.799
imperialist system, and the assholes have...
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:10.980
climbed over the walls and installed themselves
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:14.139
in power and uh yeah you're looking at probably
00:16:14.139 --> 00:16:18.240
the death of the american empire yeah i had that
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feeling myself you know and but i'm very much
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an audience member you know i i'm sure a lot
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.779
of the people in in the u .s audience in that
00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:35.200
it may not you know affect them um in their local
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.110
area for example but it's affecting lots of people
00:16:39.110 --> 00:16:41.049
around them and then there's those people that
00:16:41.049 --> 00:16:46.730
actually live in the places where yeah yeah yeah
00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:49.830
unfortunately like you know the last however
00:16:49.830 --> 00:16:52.190
many years has made america's business a lot
00:16:52.190 --> 00:16:54.409
of people's business and unfortunately i think
00:16:54.409 --> 00:17:00.289
we're reaping what we sow here yeah yeah so has
00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:05.150
it how has it affected you personally as in you
00:17:05.150 --> 00:17:10.319
know the I mean, where you live, is there ice
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.720
raids, et cetera, or is it just more that you
00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:17.380
know it's happening to friends and people you
00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:21.720
don't know? Yeah, I live in a very progressive
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.759
area. Despite that, there have been ice raids,
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notable like a kidnapping of a student from one
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of the universities nearby, and that was towards
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.970
the beginning of this nightmare. They're continuing.
00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:39.789
There's some pretty good response networks in
00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:45.170
place. But we are... I live in Massachusetts
00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:49.569
in the United States. You're typically one of
00:17:49.569 --> 00:17:53.390
the targets of the current administration's ire
00:17:53.390 --> 00:17:57.789
because we tend to put up resistance to their
00:17:57.789 --> 00:18:01.670
illegal and oftentimes unconstitutional mandates.
00:18:02.349 --> 00:18:08.460
And so... That's great. I love that our politicians,
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:10.779
for the most part, are actually doing what we
00:18:10.779 --> 00:18:15.400
need them to do. We're starting to develop kind
00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:20.700
of more local response networks on the state
00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:24.339
level, including creating an alternate network
00:18:24.339 --> 00:18:28.200
to the CDC, which has been compromised. The mayor
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.640
of Boston, Michelle, is amazing in terms of that.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:35.460
It's one of those things, I don't like the snow,
00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:39.099
but I love where I live. So you live in Boston?
00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.380
Just outside of Boston. Because that's where
00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:45.940
Sarah Horton and David Sloan live. Oh, I should
00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:48.000
hit them up, yeah. I'm pretty sure they do, because
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.759
they live in some sort of like, I can't remember
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.660
the name, but some suburb that sounds, you know,
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:02.319
sort of cool. And yeah, so anyway. Yes. So how...
00:19:05.900 --> 00:19:14.880
How has this affected you personally? I'm incredibly
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:21.500
depressed, honestly. I was raised Jewish, and
00:19:21.500 --> 00:19:25.740
so part of that is a very thorough education
00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:31.759
on how fascism comes to rise and leads to things
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:36.720
like ethnic cleansings. history does not repeat
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.279
but it sure as fuck rhymes and uh you know the
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:44.279
fact that everybody has like low -key capitulated
00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:51.480
to a monstrous bully um when it's like history
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.740
has proven the exact thing you want to do is
00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:57.079
defy them and not grant them this kind of power
00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:01.359
yeah drives me up the wall um i'm oftentimes
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:04.220
just screaming at my inability to affect change
00:20:04.220 --> 00:20:08.200
on a level that would change this. And how has
00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.319
this affected your personal life? I mean, as
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:16.640
I understand it, you're in a relationship and
00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:20.200
you think that you don't have children, do you?
00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:23.980
I've got a dog. You've got a dog. Yeah, that's
00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:29.359
problem enough. I'm not advocating that you have
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:34.779
children. It makes life more complicated with
00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:40.720
children. Pat was talking about, this is not
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:45.380
online, but was chatting to me the other day
00:20:45.380 --> 00:20:54.119
about his son was involved in a presentation
00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:59.170
or a thing at school. where they were talking
00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:05.029
about AI. But it was all very positive. You know,
00:21:05.069 --> 00:21:09.289
they had a very positive spin on, you know, the
00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:13.529
future and AI. And I was just thinking, well,
00:21:13.670 --> 00:21:18.089
obviously that doesn't gel with what my feelings
00:21:18.089 --> 00:21:21.529
are about it, my understanding. But also for
00:21:21.529 --> 00:21:25.509
kids, I was just thinking, well, you can't tell
00:21:25.509 --> 00:21:28.490
them the truth. You can't tell them your truth
00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:31.589
anyway. You can't tell them that, you know, AI
00:21:31.589 --> 00:21:37.230
absolutely sucks and it sucks, you know, huge
00:21:37.230 --> 00:21:41.829
dog balls all over the place and it's not a force
00:21:41.829 --> 00:21:45.809
for good. But if you tell them, you know, you
00:21:45.809 --> 00:21:50.069
don't want to, you know, sort of, you don't want
00:21:50.069 --> 00:21:52.470
to sort of, like, make them lose all hope in
00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:58.019
life. Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's one of those
00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:03.160
things where it's, like, if you want to foster,
00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:06.440
like, curiosity in a way that's, like, I guess
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:12.640
you as a parent would seem, like, positive. I
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:14.420
don't know, like, I feel a little uncomfortable
00:22:14.420 --> 00:22:16.200
because it's well out of my area of expertise,
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:19.720
but, like, you can leave a little breadcrumbs,
00:22:19.779 --> 00:22:21.660
yeah, for them to follow. Everything's outside
00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:26.220
my area of expertise, so don't worry. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.619
Either way, you took back accessibility, didn't
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:32.680
you? Well, so my partner is a teacher and we,
00:22:32.740 --> 00:22:34.700
we talk about this a lot or this kind of thing
00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:37.420
where it's like, there's a certain degree as
00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:39.859
like an authoritative figure over children where
00:22:39.859 --> 00:22:42.339
you, you know, you're in for a penny and for
00:22:42.339 --> 00:22:44.019
a pound, like you're going to instruct them on
00:22:44.019 --> 00:22:46.380
how to like navigate through the world, whether
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:48.960
you like it or not. So like, how can you equip
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.250
them to succeed? And part of that is like, Yeah,
00:22:53.250 --> 00:22:55.029
it's the same thing that journalists struggle
00:22:55.029 --> 00:22:58.009
with for no good reason, which is like the myth
00:22:58.009 --> 00:23:03.029
of impartiality, which is like, what is that?
00:23:03.210 --> 00:23:05.730
There's no such thing. They don't seem to struggle
00:23:05.730 --> 00:23:08.009
much in the States with that. Well, they don't
00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:11.769
struggle over here with it much or either. I'm
00:23:11.769 --> 00:23:13.789
going to pick up my dog who is whining. One second.
00:23:14.009 --> 00:23:20.970
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So she's very needy when
00:23:20.970 --> 00:23:24.420
it's winter. And she's cold. Where is she? She's
00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:27.920
right here. This is Chicken. Hey, Chicken. What
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:32.400
type is she? Cavapoo? Yep, Havanese Poodle. She's
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.259
tragically shortened to Havapoo, which... Ah,
00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:38.619
all right. Yep. She's a rescue, like three and
00:23:38.619 --> 00:23:43.099
change. Yeah. Well, we paid like 800 quid for
00:23:43.099 --> 00:23:48.960
our dog. This was 2018. But she's had so much
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:54.640
illness that it's just... Yeah. The cost to us
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.700
is dwarfed, but she's part of the family, so
00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:59.559
we have to, well, not have to, but we want to
00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.460
look after her and keep her happy and well as
00:24:03.460 --> 00:24:08.640
she possibly can. I mean, I love dogs. I often
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.579
say this, and I'll say it again, dogs are the
00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:17.000
best people. Yeah, no, I mean, you say, you know,
00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:19.299
how's my mental health? Like, what are the...
00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:22.630
she's a she's a load -bearing part of my support
00:24:22.630 --> 00:24:25.829
structure yeah yeah exactly yeah i know what
00:24:25.829 --> 00:24:30.769
you mean i mean i just yeah i i uh because as
00:24:30.769 --> 00:24:33.470
i said was saying to you earlier that my dog
00:24:33.470 --> 00:24:37.210
lol has been ill of late and it just really affected
00:24:37.210 --> 00:24:43.309
like the thought of of her being so ill and worrying
00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:46.410
about her passing away it just really got me
00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:49.069
down I mean, it got us all down, got my wife
00:24:49.069 --> 00:24:54.609
down too. The kids, yeah, live on a different
00:24:54.609 --> 00:24:57.609
planet, I think, but they're still, but it was
00:24:57.609 --> 00:25:02.150
just so depressing. So I was so happy that she
00:25:02.150 --> 00:25:04.789
was able, because she just likes to go to the
00:25:04.789 --> 00:25:08.630
park and run around and be an idiot. She's got
00:25:08.630 --> 00:25:13.190
a pee brain, I'm sure, but what is in that pee
00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:16.240
is a lot of love. yeah it's it's great to get
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:18.839
you out of your own head like yeah a little green
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:20.700
area where i live and like same thing like just
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:23.180
taking her there to smell and romp around is
00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:26.700
such a good antidote to like doom scrolling on
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:29.759
my phone yeah you know marinating in the things
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.599
i already know that are bad yeah exactly i mean
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:38.480
again yeah to be honest i wouldn't like to be
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.529
anybody in the states at the moment um Even those
00:25:42.529 --> 00:25:45.490
people that, you know, that have a comparatively
00:25:45.490 --> 00:25:49.309
shelved life compared to the others. But just
00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:52.650
the sort of shit that you see on, you know, people
00:25:52.650 --> 00:25:58.109
being disappeared, you know, just people being
00:25:58.109 --> 00:26:02.430
abused. And for sport, which is essentially what
00:26:02.430 --> 00:26:06.230
it seems to be about. Yeah, the cruelty is the
00:26:06.230 --> 00:26:10.329
point. Performative. Yeah. Performative cruelty.
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.980
Now, okay, well, moving swiftly on from there,
00:26:16.059 --> 00:26:23.220
because, yeah, unfortunately, I tend to ask depressing
00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:27.640
questions, so I'm sorry. It's refreshing, because,
00:26:27.740 --> 00:26:30.680
like, another thing that feeds the depression
00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:32.920
is, like, you wouldn't know the fuck this is
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:38.829
going on at, like, at work. Yeah. 40 to, let's
00:26:38.829 --> 00:26:41.430
be real, it's the US, 60 hours plus at work,
00:26:41.549 --> 00:26:43.809
and you wouldn't think any of this shit is going
00:26:43.809 --> 00:26:48.150
on. So you don't talk about it with your colleagues?
00:26:48.730 --> 00:26:52.470
Oh, I talk about it with my colleagues, but the
00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:55.990
civility politics of it all is just infuriating.
00:26:56.589 --> 00:26:58.990
You're just pretending like everyone isn't living
00:26:58.990 --> 00:27:08.049
depressed and terrified. Yeah, soldier on. It's
00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:10.450
like the English saying about the stiff upper
00:27:10.450 --> 00:27:13.269
lip. Yeah. Regardless of what the fuck, you know,
00:27:13.269 --> 00:27:17.069
is. And it's like that meme that we always see
00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:21.170
about, you know, the person or the animal sitting
00:27:21.170 --> 00:27:23.210
there drinking their morning coffee and saying,
00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:25.930
you know, everything's fine and places burning
00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:31.549
around them. Yeah, it's that idea. So I'll move
00:27:31.549 --> 00:27:35.670
on to the next question. Which is lived experience.
00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:40.009
How do you view your own intersection with disability?
00:27:40.890 --> 00:27:47.890
Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah, it's changed
00:27:47.890 --> 00:27:53.029
throughout the years. Like, I started, and I
00:27:53.029 --> 00:27:55.690
think, like, as a preface, like, we live in a
00:27:55.690 --> 00:27:59.549
deeply ableist and eugenicist culture. And so,
00:27:59.569 --> 00:28:04.680
like, with that, you're kind of. born into thinking
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.220
usually like you don't really question your disabled
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:13.420
identity unless you're made to um and like one
00:28:13.420 --> 00:28:15.480
really good thing about kind of like reading
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:17.599
up more about disability justice and that kind
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.059
of space is like exactly how to untangle those
00:28:20.059 --> 00:28:25.200
views um and so like originally I kind of was
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:26.960
like well I don't really identify as disabled
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.180
um and then like one of the first kind of instructive
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:33.680
moments is like Well, you'll wear glasses there,
00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:36.140
buddy, which is, you know, kind of the shallow
00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:39.420
and cool, but it's like, that's become so normalized
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:41.519
that we don't question it where like, I take
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:46.000
these off, I legally can't drive, you know, QED.
00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:51.880
And then like, I talked about it in my accessibility
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:55.599
Toronto talk where kind of recently. I've done
00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:57.799
a lot of soul searching and there's a lot of
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.880
traits there that are present that are on the
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.680
neurodivergent end of things. I haven't done
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:09.460
the official evaluations because I'm terrified
00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:11.920
of the current CDC. You haven't got the diagnosis.
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:14.519
Yeah, because I think that'll put me on a list
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:16.759
which will throw me in a camp if things go pear
00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:22.400
-shaped. Yeah. Probably with your output, they'll
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.730
probably... put you in the cab anyway any independent
00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:30.890
thinker of any type will will be scooped up so
00:29:30.890 --> 00:29:35.910
yeah but um yeah it's just i think having that
00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:37.710
framework to sort of question those sorts of
00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:39.369
things and because i think a little bit of that
00:29:39.369 --> 00:29:41.190
might have been just like some subconscious denial
00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:45.009
um but like i think it's pretty clear at this
00:29:45.009 --> 00:29:47.569
point you know one thing i don't mind chatting
00:29:47.569 --> 00:29:50.750
about is like i definitely have aphantasia um
00:29:50.750 --> 00:29:55.490
and i which is Like the inability to form mental
00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:59.329
pictures. So like. I thought somebody else's
00:29:59.329 --> 00:30:01.529
got that. Yeah. Yeah. I always thought it was
00:30:01.529 --> 00:30:04.250
like a narrative conceit, but I'm like, it's
00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:06.450
like, oh yeah, no, like I don't have like these
00:30:06.450 --> 00:30:09.829
vivid imaginative, you know, daydream sequences.
00:30:10.549 --> 00:30:13.529
People just do that. And like, you know, if I
00:30:13.529 --> 00:30:15.529
want to like conjure the mental picture of an
00:30:15.529 --> 00:30:18.829
apple, say like that takes work, that takes focus.
00:30:18.869 --> 00:30:23.200
And like, it's very like. transient like if i
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.400
don't maintain that concentration like it just
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:28.200
kind of fades to black um and that's just how
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.480
i've always been i just never really stopped
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:34.480
a question if that was like you know not the
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:40.680
norm yeah so so you see that as a disability
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:45.420
um i think it's gets into uh it's definitely
00:30:45.420 --> 00:30:51.329
a neurodivergent trait yeah But again, is neurodiversion
00:30:51.329 --> 00:30:54.529
necessarily a disability? I don't know. I think
00:30:54.529 --> 00:30:58.450
it's under the larger umbrella of a disability.
00:30:58.450 --> 00:31:04.089
It definitely does create barriers. One of my
00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:12.450
daughters has ADHD and is autistic and I definitely
00:31:12.450 --> 00:31:18.450
see that as being problematic for her at certain
00:31:18.450 --> 00:31:21.150
times in her life because just the way that she
00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:25.410
interacts with people yeah yeah and i definitely
00:31:25.410 --> 00:31:28.369
like there's some other tells in that kind of
00:31:28.369 --> 00:31:32.069
camp as well but like the flip of it is like
00:31:32.069 --> 00:31:35.289
i think a lot of where i am and who i am is kind
00:31:35.289 --> 00:31:37.809
of leaning into those traits as well um yeah
00:31:37.809 --> 00:31:40.910
it's a double -edged sword for sure but uh i
00:31:40.910 --> 00:31:44.349
don't know i recently got diagnosed with diabetes
00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:48.119
um that's Definitely a disability, but like...
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:53.759
What sort of diabetes do you have? Type 2? Yeah,
00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:58.680
I recently got diagnosed with type 2 diabetes.
00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:02.759
High five. You got the little machine? No, what
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.920
little machine? I haven't got anything like I
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:09.759
don't need. It's, you know, age -related. And
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:13.319
at this stage, I'm not... I don't need to take
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:19.170
any medication. They put me into some support
00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:23.289
group, and it's got to act with it. What I'm
00:32:23.289 --> 00:32:27.849
trying to do is lose weight by changing my diet
00:32:27.849 --> 00:32:33.450
and continue to do light, regular exercise. Yeah,
00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:36.990
yeah. I have a continual glucose monitor, CGM.
00:32:37.230 --> 00:32:39.950
It's like a little bug that lives on your arm,
00:32:39.990 --> 00:32:41.809
and it just has a little needle that samples
00:32:41.809 --> 00:32:44.380
your blood sugar level. Makes your phone scream
00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:48.140
at you if you eat too much cake. Really, so it
00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:51.619
helps you to moderate what you intake. You don't
00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:56.519
have to take insulin or anything for it yet.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.440
Thank God I don't have to inject insulin right
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.519
now, knock on wood. Because that's another whole
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:04.940
mess in the States, which is our private health
00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:12.859
care. Yeah, I've talked about that. both Cynthia
00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:17.440
and Crystal. Because, yeah, it's just, that's
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.980
something that's alien to me because I've always
00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:22.380
lived in a country that has universal healthcare.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.940
Well, you know, I started off living in Australia
00:33:24.940 --> 00:33:27.900
and the UK. And it's just, you know, in Europe,
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:31.799
it's some form of universal healthcare. It's
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:33.819
not exactly the same. Some of it is, you know,
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:38.519
managed insurance. But, yeah, nobody goes broke
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:42.670
from... yeah healthcare yeah like it's one of
00:33:42.670 --> 00:33:44.309
those things where it's like people refusing
00:33:44.309 --> 00:33:47.109
an ambulance because it would put them irreparably
00:33:47.109 --> 00:33:49.289
in debt like we as a society should have stopped
00:33:49.289 --> 00:33:51.009
and said all right some people need to go to
00:33:51.009 --> 00:33:55.390
jail like yeah well it's just it's just something
00:33:55.390 --> 00:34:00.369
that that i'm not anti you know uh capitalist
00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:06.329
um in in the sense but some things just shouldn't
00:34:06.329 --> 00:34:09.969
be run for a profit motive Health being one of
00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:15.289
them. Education being another. Government being
00:34:15.289 --> 00:34:19.090
another. But, you know, it's, yeah, it's definitely
00:34:19.090 --> 00:34:23.429
a slippery slope. What was I going to say? So
00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:28.650
I know you've had mental health issues. I mean,
00:34:28.670 --> 00:34:31.570
I have suffered from myself, from depression
00:34:31.570 --> 00:34:34.690
for most of my adult life. And I take medication
00:34:34.690 --> 00:34:40.269
for it. I've made, you know, no. no secret of
00:34:40.269 --> 00:34:45.650
that. I don't know whether I see it in terms
00:34:45.650 --> 00:34:49.710
of disability. It's just something that makes
00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:53.469
me me. Yeah. I was going to say a lot of the
00:34:53.469 --> 00:34:55.789
things that I consider under that larger disability
00:34:55.789 --> 00:34:59.909
umbrella, we don't consider the classic forms
00:34:59.909 --> 00:35:04.530
of disability. I'm not in a wheelchair. I have...
00:35:05.130 --> 00:35:08.130
what you are what you see I have low vision but
00:35:08.130 --> 00:35:10.789
like not to the point where it impedes you know
00:35:10.789 --> 00:35:15.849
my day -to -day um you know those are kind of
00:35:15.849 --> 00:35:20.809
the classic archetypes uh but like yeah you know
00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:23.750
like I have depression as well um I manage it
00:35:23.750 --> 00:35:28.769
with uh medication as well as therapy um I did
00:35:28.769 --> 00:35:32.610
therapy but I haven't I'll tell you what made
00:35:32.610 --> 00:35:35.719
a big difference for me was that, or getting
00:35:35.719 --> 00:35:38.320
older, things would seem, because I used to have
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.280
really bad anxiety all the time as well. Occasionally
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:46.500
I had to take, well, I take anti -anxiolytics,
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.280
anti -depressing medication, but I used to have
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:56.019
to also top it up with some Valium or some, you
00:35:56.019 --> 00:35:58.719
know, diazepam type things on occasion because
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:02.079
it was so, the anxiety was so bad. But that hasn't
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:03.860
happened to me yet. in the last couple years
00:36:03.860 --> 00:36:07.079
which is great that's awesome yeah like and that's
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.840
the other end of it is like i i firmly believe
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:12.659
in de -stigmatizing it about talking about it
00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:16.340
and like that's generational notions around disability
00:36:16.340 --> 00:36:22.219
which is like you know we've gone from oh gosh
00:36:22.219 --> 00:36:25.119
uh homer just had an article with the name for
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:28.099
it but basically like you know you sequester
00:36:28.099 --> 00:36:31.820
your weird aunt away because they're you know
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:36.199
not like us and that's generally shifted to like
00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:38.360
understanding what the heck is going on and like
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:40.860
the only way that really changes is if we like
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:43.199
collectively kind of talk about it and so like
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.940
we have more support yeah and normalize I suppose
00:36:46.940 --> 00:36:50.219
or just or bring it you know destigmatize it
00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:52.739
is probably a better word than normalize yeah
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:56.920
I mean I don't you know I don't wear it on my
00:36:56.920 --> 00:37:01.559
sleeve so to speak but I you know I do I'm I
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:04.449
don't hide it Because I know that there's lots
00:37:04.449 --> 00:37:08.889
of other people that are in this situation. Yeah.
00:37:09.530 --> 00:37:12.849
I can't, like, more than I have fingers and toes,
00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:15.130
like, people I've talked to that I've, like,
00:37:15.130 --> 00:37:18.750
worked with or friends with that, like, didn't
00:37:18.750 --> 00:37:20.389
feel comfortable talking about it, so, like,
00:37:20.429 --> 00:37:23.210
messaged me on the side. And, like, getting rid
00:37:23.210 --> 00:37:27.369
of that stigma, I think, is really big. Yeah.
00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:30.329
Well, one of the ways I tried to do that was
00:37:30.329 --> 00:37:33.039
that... well as well as just mentioning it in
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:38.960
you know i um created uh a shirt with with sertraline
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:42.880
on it with a pill you know 50 milligram 100 milligram
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:47.019
and the number of i got quite a few people that
00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:50.000
i knew you know sort of responding saying that's
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.480
great and and wanting you know they themselves
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.480
take take that because i don't especially with
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:01.610
mental um health that there's a lot of stigma
00:38:01.610 --> 00:38:05.550
about actually taking medication. And I say,
00:38:05.670 --> 00:38:07.670
well, look, you know, because I was at the point
00:38:07.670 --> 00:38:11.349
30 years ago, I was at the point where I was
00:38:11.349 --> 00:38:14.869
feeling so bad and my life was just so shit that
00:38:14.869 --> 00:38:17.610
I either had a choice. I was on this Alzheimer's
00:38:17.610 --> 00:38:20.170
and depressants, which didn't really help during
00:38:20.170 --> 00:38:28.320
my 20s. And then I was... just getting worse
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.059
and worse and worse. I felt so bad, like I couldn't
00:38:31.059 --> 00:38:34.739
get up, stand up without having severe anxiety.
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:38.900
And so I thought, something's got to change or
00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:42.300
I'm going to top myself. And I went and saw the
00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:46.179
doctor and he said, try these, which at the time
00:38:46.179 --> 00:38:52.119
was a new class of drugs, a newly available class
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:57.050
of drugs in Australia called sertraline. From
00:38:57.050 --> 00:38:59.610
the moment I took them, not the moment, from
00:38:59.610 --> 00:39:02.449
the, you know, I woke up the next day after first
00:39:02.449 --> 00:39:04.869
taking them and I just felt better. I just felt,
00:39:04.969 --> 00:39:08.949
I didn't feel, you know, like happy, but I felt
00:39:08.949 --> 00:39:14.190
able to cope with my existence. Yeah. I thought
00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:18.309
getting a prescription for a really long time,
00:39:18.389 --> 00:39:20.250
like I was like, I think this is something I
00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:22.809
can work through with therapy. And my two thoughts
00:39:22.809 --> 00:39:28.840
here, one, The quality of therapists are unfortunately
00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:32.519
unevenly distributed. And I think that fortunately,
00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:34.739
some really good advice somebody told me, which
00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:37.199
is like, if it's not working, fire your therapist.
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:39.219
It's nothing personal. You have nothing to prove
00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:42.920
to them. It's just business. And find a better
00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.099
one if you have that privilege or the ability
00:39:45.099 --> 00:39:47.840
to. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, you're paying
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:51.199
them. If they're not providing a good service,
00:39:51.219 --> 00:39:54.110
then you... Tell them to bugger off and find
00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:58.110
somebody else. I mean, I think that talking therapy
00:39:58.110 --> 00:40:01.949
is, or therapy in general is, is a, an important
00:40:01.949 --> 00:40:07.789
part of, of helping you to, you know, to refocus
00:40:07.789 --> 00:40:10.710
how you're feeling about yourself and et cetera.
00:40:10.789 --> 00:40:15.489
But yeah, I don't think I could have done it
00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:17.530
without drugs. Yeah. And that's the thing is
00:40:17.530 --> 00:40:20.969
like the better therapist I found, like eventually
00:40:20.969 --> 00:40:22.800
it was like, candid and they're like i think
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.400
we've reached a point where like you need chemical
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:29.920
intervention and you know i talk a lot about
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.380
like that disabled identity in the abstract but
00:40:32.380 --> 00:40:34.920
like i was holding on to this like really rigid
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:39.079
idea of self which is like i alone can like mentally
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:43.559
force my way through this sort of thing and like
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.239
i had a lot of hesitancy around taking on a prescription
00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:49.159
to deal with like the depression and the anxiety
00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:55.659
and like And she led me to a framework that's
00:40:55.659 --> 00:40:59.239
a little bit more adaptive, which dovetails quite
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.139
nicely into like a larger disabled identity conversation
00:41:02.139 --> 00:41:06.519
of like, what is me? You know, why do I draw
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:08.639
these artificial lines? Why am I so afraid of
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:12.260
these things? Can I interrogate that? And same
00:41:12.260 --> 00:41:14.159
as you, like, you know, we started on a low dose,
00:41:14.179 --> 00:41:17.300
but like, it just even things out a little bit
00:41:17.300 --> 00:41:20.550
more. Gave me a fighting chance. That's what
00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:23.269
it did, you know. Gave me the opportunity to
00:41:23.269 --> 00:41:27.469
have some perspective. Whereas before I was living
00:41:27.469 --> 00:41:29.809
this fucking nightmare that never went away.
00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:33.170
And I was able to step back from that a bit.
00:41:33.650 --> 00:41:36.710
As I say, I mean, it didn't, you know, I still
00:41:36.710 --> 00:41:41.469
had anxiety and still suffered depression. But
00:41:41.469 --> 00:41:46.800
over the years and before that. And along with
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.119
that, also sort of psychiatrists and therapists
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.500
and things like that. But I haven't for years,
00:41:52.699 --> 00:41:56.059
which you can probably tell. That's why I've
00:41:56.059 --> 00:41:58.860
turned into some sort of mad old goat or something.
00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:00.900
But anyway. Another thing they don't tell you
00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:02.920
is, like, sometimes it's just a sometimes thing.
00:42:03.179 --> 00:42:06.099
Like, people see therapists for a little bit
00:42:06.099 --> 00:42:07.579
to work through something. Sometimes they see
00:42:07.579 --> 00:42:09.500
them for their entire life. It depends on your
00:42:09.500 --> 00:42:11.420
need. But, like, we just don't collectively talk
00:42:11.420 --> 00:42:13.460
about this shit. And it, like, drives me on the
00:42:13.460 --> 00:42:15.889
wall. it's like oh well we're talking about it
00:42:15.889 --> 00:42:17.989
now though yeah yeah yeah like you go to a dentist
00:42:17.989 --> 00:42:21.230
if your tooth hurts you know you go to a proctologist
00:42:21.230 --> 00:42:25.550
if your ass hurts like yeah yeah i've done both
00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:31.710
uh yeah so a very experience in my life yeah
00:42:31.710 --> 00:42:35.110
um yeah like that's another layer to it which
00:42:35.110 --> 00:42:36.849
is like especially if you come up i think in
00:42:36.849 --> 00:42:39.030
like computer science like you're made to believe
00:42:39.030 --> 00:42:41.969
that your brain like your body is this like little
00:42:41.969 --> 00:42:45.300
like mech suit for your brain which is like this
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:48.940
perfect you know platonic ideal of like cognition
00:42:48.940 --> 00:42:52.559
and like beautiful ideas flow forth into the
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:54.960
world and you just happen to have to like walk
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.039
around and live in a body and you know eat food
00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:59.960
to keep it going the real truth is like the brain
00:42:59.960 --> 00:43:02.300
body connection is very fucking real and like
00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:05.460
you're as much a product of like your physical
00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:07.739
body as much as you are like the thoughts and
00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:10.139
like turns out oops they're interrelated and
00:43:10.139 --> 00:43:12.480
so like yeah you know again like it's part of
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.420
that stigma i think around like you know your
00:43:15.420 --> 00:43:17.739
body is a part of you for better for worse and
00:43:17.739 --> 00:43:20.500
you got to live in it and so like i guarantee
00:43:20.500 --> 00:43:22.500
you if you have a hemorrhoid and you're suffering
00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:23.900
the pain of it you're going to be a completely
00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:25.739
different person until you get those symptoms
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:30.639
addressed so like yeah definitely definitely
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:36.280
um yeah i i was going to say i'll cut a bit out
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:38.960
but i won't it's just part of the conversation
00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:45.960
uh moving safety on yet again uh how has your
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.860
work life been affected by the war on work did
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:54.920
as in you know anti -dei uh just the whole thing
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:58.420
about you know in in the states especially but
00:43:58.420 --> 00:44:03.079
also in other places um yeah sort of deprioritizing
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:07.260
accessibility or disability related issues deprioritizing
00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:13.530
any issues not uh really below to uh adult uh
00:44:13.530 --> 00:44:17.849
white men yeah yeah um there's definitely been
00:44:17.849 --> 00:44:23.389
effects um uh you know your your classic like
00:44:23.389 --> 00:44:25.750
let's rebrand this and not talk about it directly
00:44:25.750 --> 00:44:28.570
um i've seen that come down the pike through
00:44:28.570 --> 00:44:37.329
how we uh talk about certain things um microsoft
00:44:38.250 --> 00:44:42.570
which is our parent company, 86th, their annual
00:44:42.570 --> 00:44:47.349
diversity reports, which is, I feel, cowardly.
00:44:48.530 --> 00:44:51.929
And do you think that this was a direct result
00:44:51.929 --> 00:44:55.150
of the change in political climate government,
00:44:55.289 --> 00:44:59.190
whatever? Oh, undoubtedly. You know, thank God
00:44:59.190 --> 00:45:02.389
the European Accessibility Act exists because
00:45:02.389 --> 00:45:08.340
we do business and turns out, you know. I was,
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:11.760
yeah, I was talking to Cynthia about that, but,
00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:13.960
you know, just like the carrot versus the stick
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:17.079
with accessibility and people sort of, you know,
00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:20.840
some people will say, you know, they don't like
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.820
the idea of having laws around or having it codified.
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:29.320
I think it's great because it actually does make
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:32.139
people sit up and listen and make people actually
00:45:32.139 --> 00:45:36.039
do things more than people make, you know, organisations,
00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:41.360
companies. Take it seriously. Yeah. I think it's,
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.619
you know, it's one of those things where, to
00:45:44.619 --> 00:45:47.099
me, the value has always been intrinsic. But
00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:50.599
it turns out, at a certain point, and I know
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:54.760
you know this, like, you need to appeal to a
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:58.280
higher authority, which is usually law. And it
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:01.340
sucks if you wind up there. But, like, at the
00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:04.619
same time, these laws exist for a reason. And
00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:07.039
that's because... a lot of people who have a
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:10.300
direct like quality of life impact for the lack
00:46:10.300 --> 00:46:13.619
of accessibility spent their precious time on
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:18.280
this planet pushing said laws so like they exist
00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:21.940
for a reason and i i'm here as a result of that
00:46:21.940 --> 00:46:26.280
yeah i mean that yeah i mean i as i say i mean
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:29.480
i i i'm totally comfortable with laws and i actually
00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:33.960
appreciate them because they actually do um codify
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:38.929
things within practice and make it part of the
00:46:38.929 --> 00:46:41.849
business process whereby the business has to
00:46:41.849 --> 00:46:45.690
think about this because otherwise they'll get
00:46:45.690 --> 00:46:50.590
fined by the particular state that they work
00:46:50.590 --> 00:46:53.829
in or by the European state in this case. I mean,
00:46:53.889 --> 00:47:01.650
it's not at the same level of litigation as occurred
00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:05.840
in the States because It seems like the way everybody
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:08.739
does things there, it soothes each other. Yeah.
00:47:09.099 --> 00:47:14.599
But still, I have been hearing from certain customers
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:20.340
that, you know, they're getting, they have to
00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:22.139
respond to certain things that the government
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:25.719
has already, or individuals based upon the framework,
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:30.079
and the framework have actually, you know, come
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:32.969
to them and said, this isn't working. And they
00:47:32.969 --> 00:47:35.670
sit up and take notes because they, because of
00:47:35.670 --> 00:47:38.909
the laws. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot about like,
00:47:38.949 --> 00:47:42.489
you know, the web and I think a lot of accessibility
00:47:42.489 --> 00:47:45.190
work is like inherently anti -capitalist. And
00:47:45.190 --> 00:47:47.730
like, so we've tried to contort it into being
00:47:47.730 --> 00:47:54.150
like a vehicle to do a capitalism. And so like,
00:47:54.190 --> 00:47:56.849
I think that's one of the reasons why we, what
00:47:56.849 --> 00:47:59.539
we do is in the margins. And it's interesting
00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:01.440
when you think about it as like infrastructure
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:07.820
where like if you find a architect and you explain
00:48:07.820 --> 00:48:11.079
how the web is built to somebody like who can
00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:13.659
go to jail for building a building that kills
00:48:13.659 --> 00:48:19.420
people, like the way we build the web is so flimsy
00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:22.880
and crappy. Like if these were houses, they'd
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:24.760
be collapsing on people on the left and right.
00:48:25.099 --> 00:48:28.889
Yeah. It's like without that regulation. There
00:48:28.889 --> 00:48:33.730
just honestly isn't a lot of reason for a profit
00:48:33.730 --> 00:48:37.510
-motivated organization to give a shit. Yeah,
00:48:37.570 --> 00:48:46.130
yes, yes. I used a, recently used one of these
00:48:46.130 --> 00:48:51.570
apps for getting food delivered. And, well, it
00:48:51.570 --> 00:48:56.650
was actually my daughter was using it. She made
00:48:56.650 --> 00:49:00.230
an order, immediately realised that it was going
00:49:00.230 --> 00:49:05.429
to the wrong place. Yeah. Yeah. Can't change
00:49:05.429 --> 00:49:08.389
it. I mean, I'm talking about instantly realised,
00:49:08.510 --> 00:49:11.269
oh, it's going to the wrong place. Weren't allowed
00:49:11.269 --> 00:49:14.349
to change it. So it ended up costing me 30 quid.
00:49:14.570 --> 00:49:17.090
Yep. Because food was delivered at 11 o 'clock
00:49:17.090 --> 00:49:19.530
tonight somewhere that didn't, and they couldn't.
00:49:20.619 --> 00:49:22.559
The number of times, yeah, my buddy across town
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:24.679
has gotten, like, some Thai food that he can't
00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:28.440
even eat. I'm just like, sorry, man. It's just,
00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:34.719
yeah, it's just, like, I don't, that is just
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:40.460
poor user, you know, it's poor usability on the
00:49:40.460 --> 00:49:45.099
part of the app. And their processors, they didn't
00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:49.000
seem to give a shit about it. Yeah, okay. Because
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:52.599
it won't stop me using it, but it will mean that
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:54.639
I spend money that I don't necessarily need to
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:58.940
anyway. Yeah, going back to me again. See, this
00:49:58.940 --> 00:50:01.820
is just a vehicle for me to rave, that's all.
00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:09.599
Okay. Next question. I'm talking still about
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.960
depression and anxiety. I think, do you think...
00:50:14.090 --> 00:50:17.789
depression anxiety adhd etc is more prevalent
00:50:17.789 --> 00:50:25.789
in accessibility workers um i don't know i think
00:50:25.789 --> 00:50:29.730
like a lot of it i think is kind of parallel
00:50:29.730 --> 00:50:34.670
to the uh like autism conversations writ large
00:50:34.670 --> 00:50:38.650
where it's like i don't know if it's an uptick
00:50:38.650 --> 00:50:43.199
in its prevalence as much as it is. We as a society
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:45.920
have better mechanisms for talking about it and
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:49.360
identifying it. So I do think there are more
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:53.800
people in accessibility who have a personal connection
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.579
to it. That might be through ADHD and depression
00:50:57.579 --> 00:51:01.219
and anxiety. But I also think we're probably
00:51:01.219 --> 00:51:03.179
net a little bit more equipped to talk about
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:06.650
it than other folks. especially in a professional
00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:09.630
context, like there's still a lot of danger in
00:51:09.630 --> 00:51:12.929
saying like, you know, I have depression at work
00:51:12.929 --> 00:51:15.789
where suddenly like HR has taken a real close
00:51:15.789 --> 00:51:21.449
look at you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's one
00:51:21.449 --> 00:51:25.530
of the, yes. In general, when I'm, when I was
00:51:25.530 --> 00:51:29.690
at TPG, my boss, you know, Mike and Debs and
00:51:29.690 --> 00:51:36.039
Charlie knew about my, my struggles. I didn't
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:40.480
mention them once the TPG got bought by Vespera.
00:51:40.619 --> 00:51:45.960
I just, you know, but now I'm part owner of a
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:48.940
company. So it doesn't, you know, it's really
00:51:48.940 --> 00:51:53.420
is that how I treat the people that work for
00:51:53.420 --> 00:51:57.239
us, I work with, you know. Well, like I see you
00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:59.440
and I raise you here where it's like, I think
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:05.280
like depression and like attention. issues are
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.360
double -edged swords where it's like you know
00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.920
a lot of i think a lot of my like depression
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:15.440
also opens the door to thinking critically about
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:18.260
things because oh yeah you know and like that's
00:52:18.260 --> 00:52:21.940
really good if you work in software because like
00:52:21.940 --> 00:52:23.659
you think about failure paths you think about
00:52:23.659 --> 00:52:25.920
non -ideal situations you think about like how
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:29.260
could this be abused or misused and so for like
00:52:29.260 --> 00:52:31.340
somebody like me that like has to build a lot
00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:34.519
of things that i don't get to revisit and also
00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:38.000
get distributed at a global scale by an unknown
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:40.860
amount of people with an unknown amount of things
00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:45.800
they need to do. That really is helpful for thinking
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:49.900
through exactly how can I make this as self -sufficient
00:52:49.900 --> 00:52:53.639
as possible in a way that is accessible to the
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:55.559
people that need it, but also serves the needs
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:57.679
of designers that just want to put a table on
00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:01.539
a website and not think too hard about it. And,
00:53:01.579 --> 00:53:03.840
like, the ADHD thing, like, I don't know, jury's
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:08.300
out. But, like, since I can't visualize things,
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:10.940
I think in, like, related concepts a lot. And
00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:13.340
so, like, I didn't realize this until way too
00:53:13.340 --> 00:53:17.199
late in the game, which is, like, you know, those
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:19.780
logical leaps may not occur to everyone around
00:53:19.780 --> 00:53:21.920
me. And so, like, one of the coping mechanisms
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.639
I've cultivated is, like, explaining it. And
00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:26.099
I'll say, like, the connecting thought here is
00:53:26.099 --> 00:53:29.789
A to B. That's great for conversations with people
00:53:29.789 --> 00:53:31.489
when we're, like, talking about what should we
00:53:31.489 --> 00:53:33.269
get for dinner, and I suddenly start talking
00:53:33.269 --> 00:53:37.150
about, like, I don't know, helicopters. But,
00:53:37.150 --> 00:53:40.349
like, it's also helpful when you work in systems,
00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:42.809
which, like, surprise, all of the web is just
00:53:42.809 --> 00:53:46.110
systems all the way down. So, like, you know,
00:53:46.230 --> 00:53:51.309
it giveth and it taketh away. Yeah. Yeah, no,
00:53:51.449 --> 00:53:59.199
I mean, I ask that question myself. I was asking
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:03.079
that question because, and I think that your
00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:09.960
answer is right. I think that there's more, there's
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:13.559
more intensity to be able to talk about those,
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.300
you know, mental health, physical health or whatever
00:54:16.300 --> 00:54:23.769
in the accessibility space. Space. Yeah. I don't
00:54:23.769 --> 00:54:26.929
think necessarily, I suppose while I was trying
00:54:26.929 --> 00:54:29.630
to understand whether the actual, the job, you
00:54:29.630 --> 00:54:33.929
know, is killing us or is it, you know? Yeah.
00:54:34.929 --> 00:54:39.409
It's not, it's not helping. No, no, you gotta,
00:54:39.489 --> 00:54:41.590
I mean, that's another thing I talked about in
00:54:41.590 --> 00:54:44.070
that talk, which is like, you gotta really like
00:54:44.070 --> 00:54:52.159
cultivate some strategies to like focus. on how
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:53.739
to take care of yourself before you can take
00:54:53.739 --> 00:54:57.119
care of somebody else because for people like
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:01.920
us this job will take and take and take and take
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:05.800
and take yeah and you need to figure out where
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:08.840
that line is and like having crossed that line
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:11.239
like you can give too much of yourself and then
00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:13.940
there's nothing left to give and so like it's
00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:16.239
not selfish as much as it is like sustainable
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:18.360
and like i know i'm speaking in really general
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:22.469
abstracts but it's like the web never stops the
00:55:22.469 --> 00:55:26.010
work never stops like no that's yeah that that
00:55:26.010 --> 00:55:27.829
is that is the thing that's one of the things
00:55:27.829 --> 00:55:33.130
i realized uh in doing the stewardship of specifications
00:55:33.130 --> 00:55:36.929
of w3c is to think that the you're going to be
00:55:36.929 --> 00:55:40.070
an editor for life or anything it's just it just
00:55:40.070 --> 00:55:44.289
doesn't work i mean the specifications live on
00:55:44.289 --> 00:55:49.269
like html lives on lives on past my direct involvement
00:55:49.269 --> 00:55:52.630
in it lives on past, you know, Ian Hickson, who
00:55:52.630 --> 00:55:57.710
was the, the great, you know, sort of changer
00:55:57.710 --> 00:56:02.949
of, of the, the way Haitian world was developed.
00:56:04.269 --> 00:56:07.050
But he, he saw himself as, you know, edits of
00:56:07.050 --> 00:56:10.809
her life or that's how we, you know, and he's,
00:56:10.809 --> 00:56:15.510
he, he burned out, I think, and just disappeared.
00:56:15.989 --> 00:56:22.800
Yeah. Even on a good trajectory, your average
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:26.860
tenure in tech is two to three years at a place,
00:56:26.980 --> 00:56:31.280
which is ridiculous. But say I got hit by a bus
00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:35.360
tomorrow, how is my place of employment going
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:37.780
to sustain these practices without me? It's a
00:56:37.780 --> 00:56:44.320
savior complex, and that sucks. Fuck that. Yeah,
00:56:44.340 --> 00:56:48.969
definitely. I think we have time. We've been
00:56:48.969 --> 00:56:51.530
speaking for just over an hour. We have time
00:56:51.530 --> 00:56:56.949
for one more question. Do it, buddy. Get weird.
00:56:57.550 --> 00:57:01.010
Does spirituality, religion play a part in your
00:57:01.010 --> 00:57:06.429
work? Damn, Steve. Going for that. Well, I'm
00:57:06.429 --> 00:57:09.309
interested in that because, I mean, myself, I
00:57:09.309 --> 00:57:14.010
don't have a, I don't, I'm not religious. Yeah.
00:57:14.860 --> 00:57:18.360
But definitely my politics does play a part in
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:21.739
my work. But, you know, I just, yeah, I'm just
00:57:21.739 --> 00:57:25.019
interested because also I've just, I've worked
00:57:25.019 --> 00:57:31.780
with people that were highly religious and I
00:57:31.780 --> 00:57:35.219
just see how it's affected their outlook or not
00:57:35.219 --> 00:57:39.280
affected the way that they, you know, act and
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:42.989
towards other people. Yeah. okay well um you
00:57:42.989 --> 00:57:46.349
know speaking of savior complexes uh so like
00:57:46.349 --> 00:57:49.090
i'm not religious i said i was raised jewish
00:57:49.090 --> 00:57:58.269
um but i don't practice um i think there's different
00:57:58.269 --> 00:58:00.630
motivating factors for coming into this kind
00:58:00.630 --> 00:58:05.809
of work um but also if you look at the history
00:58:05.809 --> 00:58:11.809
of disability and religion um i think Unfortunately,
00:58:12.090 --> 00:58:18.630
the no -no word of saviorism pops up a lot, which
00:58:18.630 --> 00:58:23.250
has definitely altered the course of how we as
00:58:23.250 --> 00:58:25.590
a society talk about disability. And so I'm always
00:58:25.590 --> 00:58:28.829
a little nervous about that because there's a
00:58:28.829 --> 00:58:33.690
direct line between institutionalization and
00:58:33.690 --> 00:58:38.510
religion and speaking for an individual and what
00:58:38.510 --> 00:58:41.280
their needs are compared to... letting the individual
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:45.059
self you know advocate yeah and that runs a spectrum
00:58:45.059 --> 00:58:48.639
but it's like there's a world of difference between
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:54.199
you know somebody who just by virtue of accident
00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:56.579
of birth can't see versus somebody who may have
00:58:56.579 --> 00:59:00.340
a lot more you know what i would constitute as
00:59:00.340 --> 00:59:04.960
like severe needs uh and so people coming into
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:07.760
the work through the model of a savior mindset
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:13.599
always make me ambiently a little nervous. In
00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:15.639
the same breath, I do know people who are religious,
00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:18.440
who do work in accessibility, and they're lovely,
00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:20.400
beautiful, wonderful human beings. It's just
00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:26.980
like... Oh, yeah, so do I. My experience has
00:59:26.980 --> 00:59:33.360
been that certain people that... I actually don't
00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:35.400
think they're concerned with Christianity or
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:37.900
concerned with any religion that has any place
00:59:37.900 --> 00:59:45.840
always. helpful in any way to the cause of supporting
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:50.019
or increasing accessibility or decreasing the
00:59:50.019 --> 00:59:53.260
effects of disability, to be honest. But that's
00:59:53.260 --> 00:59:59.000
one way. But then again, I had a boss for 15
00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:07.139
years that was of a Christian church that I thought
01:00:07.139 --> 01:00:11.820
was really fucked and i still think they're fucked
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:15.619
i mean i don't have but that person always acted
01:00:15.619 --> 01:00:18.639
with integrity i didn't even know that that person
01:00:18.639 --> 01:00:22.800
was was in the church um until a third person
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:24.960
happened to mention it after five years of working
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:28.599
with the person and i've seen that the the person
01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:36.159
um except you know sort of people that are professed
01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:40.150
themselves as satanist I think it was a bit tongue
01:00:40.150 --> 01:00:43.449
-in -cheek, but that was Hayden Pickering, as
01:00:43.449 --> 01:00:50.090
was said that he does say. Yeah. But, yeah, like,
01:00:50.170 --> 01:00:53.389
I mean, I guess it's like, you know, I promised
01:00:53.389 --> 01:00:55.309
you an overlay reference here, but it's like,
01:00:55.429 --> 01:00:57.909
it's the same shit. Like, who is getting centered
01:00:57.909 --> 01:01:03.110
and why? And, like, if it's centering somebody
01:01:03.110 --> 01:01:07.610
who is not disabled as an attempt to try to fix
01:01:07.610 --> 01:01:10.829
them yeah like i'm immediately like well that's
01:01:10.829 --> 01:01:18.269
sus as fuck so yeah uh yeah it's um i suppose
01:01:18.269 --> 01:01:24.250
what what i'm trying to convey is that that people
01:01:24.250 --> 01:01:27.710
can have their religious beliefs but they can
01:01:27.710 --> 01:01:32.739
still support a humanist sort of yeah you know,
01:01:32.739 --> 01:01:35.780
philosophy. And they could still, you know, people
01:01:35.780 --> 01:01:40.780
who have a religious belief, but then don't immediately
01:01:40.780 --> 01:01:43.800
make it their whole personality. It's part of
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:46.760
them, and that's great, but they still look,
01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:50.820
you know, they could still experience and get
01:01:50.820 --> 01:01:54.380
on with people many different types. But where
01:01:54.380 --> 01:01:57.159
I've found it to be a problem is that the person,
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.860
it's obviously people have, it's like, well.
01:02:01.260 --> 01:02:03.679
I was going to say it's like racism, but it's
01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:06.619
not because like you can, I don't think any form
01:02:06.619 --> 01:02:09.239
of racism can actually have any positivity to
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:11.719
it, but some forms of religion, you know, some
01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:17.500
religious belief can. Yeah. You know, I find
01:02:17.500 --> 01:02:21.559
that certain people, it's the same thing. I just
01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:27.119
cannot understand why, how a person could be
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:31.860
a racist, but then also. be interested in supporting
01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:35.920
accessibility yeah developing accessibility and
01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:39.099
you know like people contain multitudes and sometimes
01:02:39.099 --> 01:02:41.820
sometimes that's not the greatest thing but yeah
01:02:41.820 --> 01:02:43.199
i'm right there with you where i'm like how did
01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:48.840
you wind up here yeah yeah um it was just that
01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:52.780
i i made sorry i did some social media but i
01:02:52.780 --> 01:02:55.599
think it was on um linkedin and i was talking
01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:00.570
about um ai because I haven't talked about it
01:03:00.570 --> 01:03:02.670
with you, but I've talked about it with other
01:03:02.670 --> 01:03:05.949
people. But I did this post, and then somebody
01:03:05.949 --> 01:03:10.070
reposted it with the statement that, you know,
01:03:10.090 --> 01:03:13.949
I'm sure that they're trying to help us with
01:03:13.949 --> 01:03:15.989
these tools by creating them. This was about
01:03:15.989 --> 01:03:21.469
accessibility testing. And to think that somebody
01:03:21.469 --> 01:03:23.869
is actually there, I don't think they're doing
01:03:23.869 --> 01:03:27.610
it for a good motive. I think companies are doing
01:03:27.610 --> 01:03:30.050
it for a profit motive, whether they, you know,
01:03:30.090 --> 01:03:36.630
if it can have some, if the product can actually
01:03:36.630 --> 01:03:40.250
do something that it says it does, then that's
01:03:40.250 --> 01:03:42.530
a selling point. It's not about accessibility
01:03:42.530 --> 01:03:45.269
or disability. It's about making money. And it
01:03:45.269 --> 01:03:48.409
doesn't really matter what the product is. That's
01:03:48.409 --> 01:03:50.250
it, you know, whether it's an accessibility testing
01:03:50.250 --> 01:03:54.929
product or, you know, whatever it is, it's about,
01:03:56.079 --> 01:03:59.400
you know what what is the potential of that of
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:05.460
that um product to um to enrich uh the shareholders
01:04:05.460 --> 01:04:09.199
which is important yeah i think like i mean there's
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:11.940
definitely a world where you can have a business
01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:13.960
that's motivated by profit that puts something
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:16.579
out into the world that like genuinely helps
01:04:16.579 --> 01:04:19.800
uh it's like and i know you know like when we're
01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:23.139
in our like I know it's such a buzzword, but
01:04:23.139 --> 01:04:26.099
like in shitified like late capital era where
01:04:26.099 --> 01:04:30.519
like there is a disconnect between the service
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:32.639
you produce and the profit that comes in. That's
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:35.179
when things get really screwy because like you've
01:04:35.179 --> 01:04:38.300
basically abandoned the reason you exist in the
01:04:38.300 --> 01:04:40.679
first place. I'm like, we're seeing it all over
01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:43.300
the board. I think like the Campbell's soup thing
01:04:43.300 --> 01:04:45.280
being the most recent example of that, which
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:47.719
is like at the end of the day, you make soup.
01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:50.500
You probably should care about the people that
01:04:50.500 --> 01:04:54.559
consume your soup. Sorry, I'm unaware of what
01:04:54.559 --> 01:04:57.639
happened with Campbell's soup. Oh, just a random
01:04:57.639 --> 01:05:02.619
exec went on this racist talk about the people
01:05:02.619 --> 01:05:06.219
that consumed his product. Really? Talk about
01:05:06.219 --> 01:05:08.260
biting the hand that feeds you, man. Yeah, exactly.
01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:11.980
And it's just because these concerns are now
01:05:11.980 --> 01:05:14.139
so abstract that you forget at the end of the
01:05:14.139 --> 01:05:19.400
day. You make soup. People eat soup. Yeah. Well,
01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:25.840
it's just, I mean, the narrative, the so -called
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:29.099
Overton window for what's acceptable speech has
01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:32.059
widened massively in the states of late, hasn't
01:05:32.059 --> 01:05:35.619
it? I mean, it's widened here as well, but not
01:05:35.619 --> 01:05:38.460
to the extent. Like, it's not actually glorified,
01:05:38.460 --> 01:05:40.400
you know. We don't have the government putting
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:44.820
out ads, you know, sort of glorifying the...
01:05:45.500 --> 01:05:48.380
the rounding up of people and and the deporting
01:05:48.380 --> 01:05:50.460
of people illegally and all these sort of things
01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:52.599
well i mean you talk you know you mentioned earlier
01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:57.019
like white dudes and accessibility and like hi
01:05:57.019 --> 01:05:59.940
one of them like yeah never underestimate the
01:05:59.940 --> 01:06:03.340
power of as a tall white dude just saying why
01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:06.880
would you say something like that like i'd pop
01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:09.360
that off in real life a few times and like it
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.920
stops that shit cold and dead yeah well yeah
01:06:12.920 --> 01:06:16.940
i mean it's a I definitely think that the onus
01:06:16.940 --> 01:06:21.039
is upon those of us with more privilege to call
01:06:21.039 --> 01:06:23.920
out that shit. Yeah. And, like, obviously, you
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:26.880
know, be safe about that. Like, don't universally
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.440
apply to every situation you're in. No, no, of
01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:30.880
course. If you're in a dive bar where you don't
01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:33.219
know anybody versus, like, maybe on the terrain.
01:06:33.980 --> 01:06:37.960
I mean, I've, you know, I've drank in lots of
01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:40.139
bars during my life and been there. But I've
01:06:40.139 --> 01:06:43.199
managed so far not to. I've been in one fight.
01:06:43.630 --> 01:06:46.610
during my adult life and it wasn't really a big
01:06:46.610 --> 01:06:51.849
fight um so yeah you you really you need to know
01:06:51.849 --> 01:06:56.510
when to when to hold your uh your words back
01:06:56.510 --> 01:07:00.130
for sure but in certain circumstances i think
01:07:00.130 --> 01:07:07.550
yeah and you know wherever you can um make a
01:07:07.550 --> 01:07:10.349
statement about something to then you should
01:07:10.349 --> 01:07:18.780
yeah So you were talking about your talk, and
01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:24.179
I really enjoyed your talk at AccessVue TO. It
01:07:24.179 --> 01:07:27.260
was definitely the highlight of AccessVue TO
01:07:27.260 --> 01:07:30.219
for me, which is surprising because I don't normally
01:07:30.219 --> 01:07:32.579
sit through a lot, but I sat through the whole
01:07:32.579 --> 01:07:38.289
of your talk. You did mention me, which was nice,
01:07:38.590 --> 01:07:42.690
but that was a small part of the whole thing.
01:07:43.030 --> 01:07:46.570
But what, and I've said this to other people
01:07:46.570 --> 01:07:50.630
as well, I think I said it to Crystal, that one
01:07:50.630 --> 01:07:52.829
of the things that I got from your talk, which
01:07:52.829 --> 01:07:57.670
I hadn't understood was about burnout and how
01:07:57.670 --> 01:08:02.829
it can affect people, excessively people more.
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:06.500
And the reason why I hadn't picked it up before
01:08:06.500 --> 01:08:08.820
was because I've never been in the situation
01:08:08.820 --> 01:08:10.760
where I've been the only accessible person in
01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:14.440
the room or, you know, I've always worked for
01:08:14.440 --> 01:08:17.659
organizations that help organizations, you know,
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:20.680
that provide services. So I've always been surrounded
01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:23.899
by other people that are involved in accessibility.
01:08:24.899 --> 01:08:27.439
Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, like in my current
01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:32.670
setup, like I have peers that. Yeah. And that's
01:08:32.670 --> 01:08:37.149
rare. But it's also like, you know. Sorry, I
01:08:37.149 --> 01:08:39.729
might just go to the doctor's. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
01:08:41.289 --> 01:08:46.350
Yeah. Yeah. I come from a consulting background,
01:08:46.470 --> 01:08:48.949
too. And like that definitely changes how you
01:08:48.949 --> 01:08:52.130
interact with folks where like usually just say,
01:08:52.170 --> 01:08:54.350
go do this. All right. Bye. And like you're too
01:08:54.350 --> 01:08:57.869
expensive for them to like ignore you. Yeah.
01:08:58.989 --> 01:09:03.310
Yeah. Well, that is like, you know. Being paid
01:09:03.310 --> 01:09:07.930
for a service is a positive thing because it
01:09:07.930 --> 01:09:12.750
means that they, you know, the people that pay
01:09:12.750 --> 01:09:17.189
see a certain value in what the service you're
01:09:17.189 --> 01:09:19.050
providing, the information you're providing.
01:09:19.470 --> 01:09:24.710
Yeah. So I just wanted to thank you for that
01:09:24.710 --> 01:09:32.020
talk because I really enjoyed it. Yeah. Thanks
01:09:32.020 --> 01:09:36.300
for watching. One of the things that I came away
01:09:36.300 --> 01:09:40.899
from that as well has been appreciation of what
01:09:40.899 --> 01:09:46.760
burnout can do, but also that I just realized,
01:09:46.939 --> 01:09:51.279
well, I realized, I see you as a web existentialist.
01:09:53.739 --> 01:09:58.159
You know, like you just have that, you know,
01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:03.869
like. existential as in, uh, Sartre and, uh,
01:10:04.050 --> 01:10:06.250
Yeah, it's going right on the business card there.
01:10:06.689 --> 01:10:09.649
Yeah. Yeah. But you do, because it just, cause
01:10:09.649 --> 01:10:12.630
you, you know, that talk that you gave that had
01:10:12.630 --> 01:10:15.090
a lot of, um, obviously a lot of thought into
01:10:15.090 --> 01:10:18.590
it and you, and the, the sort of references and
01:10:18.590 --> 01:10:21.869
the sources that you, the, the really well thought
01:10:21.869 --> 01:10:25.270
out as well as it looked good. because my my
01:10:25.270 --> 01:10:28.989
uh presentations always look um so i appreciated
01:10:28.989 --> 01:10:32.510
uh seeing someone that can do it professionally
01:10:32.510 --> 01:10:37.090
but yeah it was i as i say it was honestly was
01:10:37.090 --> 01:10:42.489
um i'm not gonna no i've got i'm gonna be speaking
01:10:42.489 --> 01:10:45.550
to doug later but i can't say that he's i enjoyed
01:10:45.550 --> 01:10:48.779
seeing doug because i dug shepherds because i
01:10:48.779 --> 01:10:51.680
just think he's a real character and also i appreciate
01:10:51.680 --> 01:10:53.699
the the fact that you have all the work you do
01:10:53.699 --> 01:10:59.899
on svg but um it it uh really uh made me into
01:10:59.899 --> 01:11:05.119
a bit of a eric bailey fan oh buddy big funny
01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:10.340
but um there's many other questions i could ask
01:11:10.340 --> 01:11:14.539
you but as as usual time is Well, it's actually
01:11:14.539 --> 01:11:17.119
been going for an hour and a half. So I think
01:11:17.119 --> 01:11:19.460
that's more than enough, definitely more than
01:11:19.460 --> 01:11:23.079
enough of me, probably enough of you at this
01:11:23.079 --> 01:11:28.779
point in time. And if you're willing, we'll have
01:11:28.779 --> 01:11:30.979
you back again to talk about something later
01:11:30.979 --> 01:11:34.760
on. I've always said, because it just takes such
01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:37.279
a lot of effort for me to actually do the post
01:11:37.279 --> 01:11:39.460
-production. Hopefully this will be better. That's
01:11:39.460 --> 01:11:41.939
why I got rid of all that, because it was just
01:11:41.939 --> 01:11:48.680
causing me conniptions. But as I said, thank
01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:52.819
you for talking with me about these various subjects
01:11:52.819 --> 01:11:57.960
and hopefully you had an enjoyable time. Oh my
01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:00.939
gosh, highlight of my week. Thanks for giving
01:12:00.939 --> 01:12:03.979
me the chance to, you know. It's funny because
01:12:03.979 --> 01:12:09.390
I think you and I... I don't know, we don't know
01:12:09.390 --> 01:12:12.229
each other very well. And I think I got to know
01:12:12.229 --> 01:12:18.329
you a bit better at SVTO, but I think that both
01:12:18.329 --> 01:12:23.350
of us had different preconceptions about the
01:12:23.350 --> 01:12:26.869
other person. So, and I think that those, you
01:12:26.869 --> 01:12:31.890
know, through actually talking and it wasn't
01:12:31.890 --> 01:12:34.229
negative preconceptions, just preconceptions
01:12:34.229 --> 01:12:36.670
about who the person is, you know, from limited.
01:12:37.730 --> 01:12:42.649
So I appreciate the opportunity to get to know
01:12:42.649 --> 01:12:46.890
you a bit better. Same, buddy. All right. Well,
01:12:47.069 --> 01:12:51.449
yeah, as I said, I'll send you the details of
01:12:51.449 --> 01:12:53.590
this and you can look at it in your own time
01:12:53.590 --> 01:12:57.970
and come back to me if you want to cut. Unfortunately,
01:12:58.010 --> 01:13:03.170
you can't cut out anything that I say, but it'll
01:13:03.170 --> 01:13:06.310
just be me. If I had my way, it'll just be me.
01:13:07.039 --> 01:13:08.840
Well, they cut out your hemorrhoids, so, like,
01:13:08.840 --> 01:13:11.500
what else can they cut? Yeah, exactly. Oh, God,
01:13:11.500 --> 01:13:15.119
yeah. I don't know how that came. It just reminds
01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:18.899
me. I had a wonderful time when I lived in Chippendale,
01:13:18.939 --> 01:13:25.680
this inner -city suburb of Sydney, which is where
01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:29.279
the university was. Yeah. But, yeah, I had a
01:13:29.279 --> 01:13:32.000
wonderful time, but that was many, many years
01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:38.319
ago now. So, anyway, Eric. Thank you again. And
01:13:38.319 --> 01:13:44.180
what's your dog's name? Chicken. Chicken? You
01:13:44.180 --> 01:13:47.399
want to know her full name? Yeah. Crispy Chicken
01:13:47.399 --> 01:13:51.819
Bacon Cheddar Ranch. Ah. Yeah. How old is she?
01:13:52.460 --> 01:13:55.439
She's like three and change. They picked her
01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:57.239
up on the streets of the city when she was a
01:13:57.239 --> 01:14:00.020
pup, so we don't know her actual birthday. Ah,
01:14:00.039 --> 01:14:03.220
right. So how long ago did you get her? Two years
01:14:03.220 --> 01:14:06.439
ago. So you got her when she was a year and a
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:09.899
bit. Cool. Well, give her a pat and a kiss and
01:14:09.899 --> 01:14:15.199
a hug from Uncle Steve. And hopefully I'll see
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:17.899
you again soon. Yeah. All right. Good to see
01:14:17.899 --> 01:14:19.079
you, man. See ya.