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This file was generated by Descript
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Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the
podcast where you can experience an
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example customer interview every week.
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You'll discover new perspectives on
different software products and improve
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your customer interview technique.
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As I attempt to do the same
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I'm Jonathan Markwell and this week I'll
be interviewing Jacob funnel Jacobs.
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A customer of SEMrush stem rush
describes itself as an online
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visibility management platform.
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how are we trying to understand why
Jacob purchased some rush, how he uses
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it and what alternatives he's considered?
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Jacob's a freelance digital marketer
with a decade of experience helping
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SAS and professional service companies.
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Hi Jacob,
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.
Hello?
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Okay.
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Uh, thank you for taking the time today.
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Uh, I'm super excited to hear your
thoughts on, um, why, uh, you purchased
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a particular software product.
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Um, And, um, yeah, the goal of, uh, of,
of this podcast and these interviews
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is, is, uh, for, for me to practice,
uh, customer interviews, but also just
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to fill up people to experience other
people's experience of, of software.
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Um, uh, so, uh, before we get
started, if you've got any questions,
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Jacob: Uh, no, let's, let's dive in.
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Cool.
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Jon: Then, uh, the final thing to ask
you, if you're comfortable sharing with
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me recording this interview, as I've
already asked you as we are recording it.
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Um, but also, um, that we share it
publicly for the, for the benefit.
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Um, yeah, that's all cool.
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Um, what was it normally a customer
interview like this wouldn't be
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shared outside of the organization.
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Um, but, um, yeah, so this
is a, this is a public one.
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So if that's all cool, we'll
dive into a first question.
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Um, and so can you tell me a
little bit about how you got
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into needing, uh, SEMrush,
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Jacob: yeah.
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So, um, I used, um, a few STO
tools as part of doing SEO.
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Uh, just in house.
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I was, I was working for a small company
and, um, I was, you know, like responsible
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for all digital marketing stuff.
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Like when you're an exec, any small
companies you often end up in.
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You know, the everything guy.
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Um, and it used to use a SEO Moz.
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That was a, that was a tool
which was available at the time
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even before it's called months.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I just wanted to get some like,
decent information on, uh, keywords
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that were available, uh, in the industry
that I was working with at the time.
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And I just, I tried, uh, trials, a
few different products, and I just
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found that stem rough was just so
much better than everyone else.
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They just had a much wider
database of keywords.
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So it came from that keyboard
or such stuff to BMI.
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That was like the main motivating thing.
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Jon: Makes sense.
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Makes sense.
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Do you remember when it was, um, that,
uh, the staff first started paying for it?
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Author used to?
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Jacob: Um, I think so.
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Uh, as far as I recall, um, I was able
to make the case for it pretty easily.
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I sustain, you know, I'm using
this, can we use this and stuff?
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Most, I think most was
expiring anyway, at the time.
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So it's a little bit easier to make
the case when your, your existing
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thing's about to expire, because
you're not asking really for more
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money, you just ask them to spend
the same money in a different place.
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Jon: Right.
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Um, terms of time, uh,
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Jacob: uh, um, as in like before
present or into my bifocal, um, yikes.
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This is going to be ages ago.
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Maybe I'm guessing it's like 2017,
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Jon: right?
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Okay.
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Fears, fears, pain.
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Um, and so can you walk me
through the work that you're
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doing when you use, um, SEM rush?
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Um, what's the end result
that you're trying to get to?
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Jacob: Yeah, so generally speaking,
um, I use this for pretty much any,
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any SEO project I'm involved with.
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Um, and I think the reason for
that is it's really good at just
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use it doing lots of things.
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Well, um, so for example, if I have
a new site to look up, um, as a full
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site audit report, so working on your
plan, then you site, and they want
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to know what's wrong with a slate.
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Is there anything in terms of
how it's bill that's wrong?
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And that full site audit report
is a very good starting point.
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You can't like completely
trust any crueler.
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Um, by itself they will come up with
issues that aren't really issues.
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Um, and it's, um, it's not as
comprehensive as, as doing everything you
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could and something like screaming frog,
for example, which goes into way more, way
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more detail, uh, and requires a lot more.
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Um, configuration, but in
terms of spotting the, uh,
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the, the spotting, the big.
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And doing it quickly.
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It's really good.
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And I think it's like, uh, so
yeah, it's really, really, really
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useful in that first stage when
I was ordered to signify it.
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I'm just trying to go like,
what's, what's going on here.
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I'll say keywords.
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Okay.
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What are they ranking for?
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What's the technical side of things.
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How's the site fit together?
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Is there anything wrong with that?
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Yeah.
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Jon: Can you give me some examples
that anyone would recognize of
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an issue that it might flag it?
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Jacob: Yeah.
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So often when you're building a site,
um, Uh, the focus tends to be on,
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okay, let's just get the site live.
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We want to make sure
that the design is right.
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There are things that people can see.
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If you feel you're making a psychic,
you're always looking at the things that
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you can see about the slate and you,
anyone can spot if like the navigation
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to navigation menus don't function
as, as supposed to, you can spot
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that, but SEO issues tend to get lost.
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And so, for example, um, Errors that
you might see things like this as it
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relates to your mail tag, which tells the
browser, these are the words that should
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appear at the top of the browser tap.
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So, uh, and so that's the title tag.
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And sometimes I work with sites
and they've got like seven.
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And they're completely invisible.
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You won't spot that unless
you crawl your site.
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Right.
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Uh, and then you've got more
insidious, more technical things.
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So for example, if you've got the
same content translated into different
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languages, sometimes, um, you won't
have set up correctly to tell Google.
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This to sustain article,
but in different languages.
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Yeah.
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Uh, yeah, more technical still.
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You might have things like you've
used structured data and you've
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tried to tell Google I have a
software product and here's all of
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the bits of information about this.
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And quite often that's
incorrectly assessed.
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So basically it's all kinds
of things that are hidden.
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You won't be able to see
them just by going to a page.
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It might be perfectly fine,
but then behind the scenes,
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Jon: Got it.
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Correct.
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Makes sense.
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Um, and so what, what other tools
or things have you done manually
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to try and solve the same problems
that you solve by using SEMrush?
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Jacob: I think the big ones in terms
of like keyboard except stuff, um,
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uh, Back in the day you would use,
um, Google ads, keyword planner, um,
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it's becomes increasingly tricky.
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You need like an actual paid
ad account to do that now.
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So if you were trying to do it free, uh,
you just don't have that option anymore.
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You have just going straight to Google.
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Um, and also I feel like I just
have an easier time using some
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Russia's tool than I do with, um,
Uh, easing, easing out to planner.
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It's just a bit more intuitively laid out.
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Um, in terms of site, uh, audit
seemed like technical audit.
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Um, we've got things like screaming,
frog, um, but in the absence of any
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other tools, which is often where
people start, especially if they're in
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house, they don't have anything, then
you end up checking stuff manually.
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So you might get like a plugin and it
becomes, there's so many things where
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like, humans shouldn't be doing them.
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Like it shouldn't be
like manually checking.
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Your metadata page by page, you should
just, you should just get that crawled
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and done in the report in seconds.
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Yup.
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Um, so yeah, that's
another alternative, uh,
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Jon: literally clicking B-cells at a page
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Jacob: on page at a time.
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Yeah.
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So that'd be like the most
formative way of doing it possible.
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And then like the next step step up would
be installing like a Chrome extension.
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I have a Chrome extension that does that.
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So if I'm on a particular page, Uh, and
I'm really focusing on that patient.
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I have a lot of stuff, but
like if you're getting a whole
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site, so this whole site stuff.
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Yeah.
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Anything, anything in
any level of quantity?
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You just, you, you want
the tool to automate this?
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Yup.
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Jon: Got it.
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Okay.
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Um, and can you tell me when you
first started thinking that you should
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use something else to get through?
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Done.
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Um, so may, I mean, obviously quite
awhile, while back in 2017, um, and
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you were an employee at the time.
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Jacob: Yeah.
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So that was I'm obsessed.
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I first started using this.
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Um, um, yeah, I, I think I just wanted
to, um, get more keywords for ads.
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I think that was one thing and
I also wanted to, um, yeah.
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Keep exploring for keywords for,
uh, the blog is a bit, I think one
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of the pinch points was that it was
quite difficult to find keywords.
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It felt like particularly.
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To the B2B audience that
we're trying to reach.
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Um, and honestly, like I think part of my
initial motivations, like the misguided,
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and I feel like I felt that was a big
reservoir of like B2B relevant keywords.
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That if only I could find it,
it would, you know, be there.
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But now that I've worked
with a lot more company.
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Um, I feel like I've got a better
understanding of the buying
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cycle and that how massively
differs from companies company.
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So the thought that I was thinking,
wow, there's just going to be this like,
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like undiscovered land of keywords.
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And if I managed to get them,
then, then, then I'll be able to
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get people on the site and apply.
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Whereas now I think a lot more about like,
well for companies, a lot of the time.
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A person just has the training need.
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And then they start Googling things
about like, you know, X training course,
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and you just got to get them there.
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Then you gotta put a lot of effort
into making sure you get them there.
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And the, the stage before that,
while they've got like awareness of
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a problem and all the rest of it,
I mean, you will get such stands
00:11:34.338 --> 00:11:38.088
around there, but like the, the
overwhelming, like, wait, is that, that
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particular bit where they've just gone.
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We needed a training course.
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Um, and I, I feel like at the time, I
didn't really think that way so much.
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I used to, I used to think that like,
there'll be a more even level of
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interest at all bits of the funnel.
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And you're taught that, you know, oh yeah.
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There's the awareness about where
people are just barely aware that
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they've got a problem or something.
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Some industry that's true.
00:12:01.518 --> 00:12:05.238
Something like dollar shave club is
a fantastic example of that, where
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absolutely awareness was there.
00:12:08.028 --> 00:12:12.048
No one knew you could get subscription
raises fate, that there was, there would
00:12:12.048 --> 00:12:16.548
have been very little search volume for
subscription razor service at that time.
00:12:17.298 --> 00:12:22.998
Um, so they needed to get up there
and that awareness bit, whereas,
00:12:23.328 --> 00:12:27.648
uh, and so, you know, uh, you know,
the YouTube stuff and the display
00:12:27.648 --> 00:12:30.978
advertising, I'm sure they would have
done was absolutely what they need it.
00:12:32.208 --> 00:12:35.808
But for that company, it was just
getting people at those extremely
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high level of intent, you know,
they saw training courses.
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And so it's like getting them
when they're searching for
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those sorts of training courses.
00:12:42.258 --> 00:12:42.468
Yeah.
00:12:42.588 --> 00:12:45.558
So yeah, I thought your
mistaken belief grinding.
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Jon: Interesting.
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I thank you.
00:12:48.618 --> 00:12:49.128
Um,
00:12:52.338 --> 00:12:59.628
and, um, So before, so you've told
me where you were hoping for it to
00:12:59.628 --> 00:13:06.918
solve, um, to get you this rich set
of, of B2B keywords for the particular
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businesses that you're working in.
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Um, and, but you indicated
that maybe it didn't help them.
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Do you expect it to help?
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Um, was there anything, um, before you
started using the product that you were
00:13:24.993 --> 00:13:27.093
unsure of about it, or that was unclear?
00:13:30.288 --> 00:13:37.008
Jacob: I think, I mean, there
were a lot of capacitor tools pan,
00:13:37.018 --> 00:13:40.578
so differentiation between some
roughing, other ones, it was khaki.
00:13:40.578 --> 00:13:45.348
And I feel like I answered a lot of
my questions just by doing the trial.
00:13:46.398 --> 00:13:49.338
I think that that, that, that, that
helped me out with the loss of them.
00:13:51.828 --> 00:13:55.608
As far as I can recall, I was,
I felt pretty sure that it was
00:13:55.608 --> 00:13:56.958
like, it was just like mole.
00:13:56.968 --> 00:14:01.698
So we had this understanding my
head there's more SEO, most visible.
00:14:02.448 --> 00:14:10.703
Um, and so I had this kind of
template in my head like, oh, So I
00:14:10.713 --> 00:14:12.003
feel like happens a lot with stopper.
00:14:12.033 --> 00:14:13.803
You just, you just go,
oh, it's this thing.
00:14:14.253 --> 00:14:17.973
So you don't really need that kind
of, if I was mistaken, it would
00:14:17.973 --> 00:14:20.553
have been mistaken to the extent
that it was different from us.
00:14:20.583 --> 00:14:24.243
And as far as I recall, like that
wasn't a lot that was different from
00:14:25.683 --> 00:14:25.893
Jon: yeah.
00:14:27.603 --> 00:14:31.533
But going back, was there anything
about Mazda at the time that you didn't
00:14:31.533 --> 00:14:34.833
like, was there more that were sort
of pushing you away from, from most.
00:14:38.193 --> 00:14:38.523
Jacob: Yeah.
00:14:38.523 --> 00:14:41.133
Like I felt like summer felt
about a keyword database.
00:14:41.823 --> 00:14:49.143
Um, and, um, yeah, that's, I think that's
the main thing I remember possibly.
00:14:49.143 --> 00:14:54.243
I got a sense that there was more,
there were more sort of features
00:14:54.243 --> 00:14:57.123
in SEMrush, but I'm not sure it's
a, quite a long time ago now.
00:14:57.993 --> 00:14:58.293
Right.
00:14:59.493 --> 00:15:06.378
Jon: Um, and you've touched on this
briefly already, but, uh, Before
00:15:06.378 --> 00:15:09.198
you decided to use, um, the break.
00:15:09.198 --> 00:15:14.238
Was there anyone else that you, um,
asked, um, about it or, um, places
00:15:14.238 --> 00:15:16.638
that you look for information about it?
00:15:19.968 --> 00:15:24.288
Jacob: I mean, I was kind of,
I just remember being like,
00:15:24.288 --> 00:15:27.888
roughly aware of a few of them.
00:15:28.188 --> 00:15:30.258
Uh, I was aware of spite, baby.
00:15:31.203 --> 00:15:33.083
You know, my boss at the
time told me about that.
00:15:33.093 --> 00:15:38.793
We used to be subscribed to that,
but again, it's called SpyFu.
00:15:38.853 --> 00:15:42.363
I don't even know if it's still going,
but it's chemo database was just
00:15:42.423 --> 00:15:43.653
nowhere near as good a stem rush.
00:15:43.803 --> 00:15:48.093
Um, and I think a cool thing is I
tried in all of them to do this sort
00:15:48.093 --> 00:15:52.493
of keyword search and SEMrush just came
up way better than the rest of them.
00:15:52.653 --> 00:15:54.483
And that was during the
trial was a big thing.
00:15:55.233 --> 00:15:55.473
Yeah.
00:15:55.473 --> 00:15:57.543
That was during the trial in advance.
00:15:58.233 --> 00:15:59.883
Um,
00:16:03.138 --> 00:16:04.008
You know, it's so hard.
00:16:04.038 --> 00:16:06.948
I'm just, oh, I have this like
awareness of it being around.
00:16:07.698 --> 00:16:11.778
I feel this happens a lot
with, um, a lot of products.
00:16:11.808 --> 00:16:15.648
Like your first, you often don't
remember your first time you see them.
00:16:16.218 --> 00:16:20.058
And then cause it's just
like, oh, it's around.
00:16:20.658 --> 00:16:24.978
It's people are talking about it and
you're barely even clocking at, um,
00:16:26.133 --> 00:16:32.343
Jon: The w where would you have sort of
been hanging out to have discovered it,
00:16:32.373 --> 00:16:37.683
there are like any forums or websites
or podcasts that you would have, uh,
00:16:37.713 --> 00:16:42.163
or maybe the, the today, if, if, um,
you had to come across a new product.
00:16:42.183 --> 00:16:45.063
W where, where might you
first come across it?
00:16:45.873 --> 00:16:48.063
Jacob: Um, yeah, a lot's changed today.
00:16:48.123 --> 00:16:51.213
So like, where, what I do now
is like way different from even
00:16:51.213 --> 00:16:53.133
like a cereal four years ago.
00:16:53.823 --> 00:17:01.443
Um, So I would say since about 2018,
uh, I joined an absolute ton of, uh,
00:17:01.863 --> 00:17:03.333
Facebook groups are actually really good.
00:17:04.323 --> 00:17:07.843
Um, handful of them are really good.
00:17:08.313 --> 00:17:13.863
You normally get decent information than
I have, um, posed questions about, um,
00:17:13.893 --> 00:17:15.563
things like learning patient flower or.
00:17:17.583 --> 00:17:19.803
Um, I think that was the
most recent one yeah.
00:17:19.863 --> 00:17:20.643
Landing page stuff.
00:17:20.673 --> 00:17:25.083
And I was just going to be like, what
are people using for page building?
00:17:25.083 --> 00:17:26.193
Because I knew about Unbounce.
00:17:26.433 --> 00:17:27.813
Was there anything else people knew about?
00:17:27.813 --> 00:17:28.323
So, yeah.
00:17:28.323 --> 00:17:34.503
So, um, uh, so the idea is to get a
recommendation from someone who has
00:17:34.503 --> 00:17:39.303
actively used the tool and who seems
credible, like there's someone who's
00:17:39.303 --> 00:17:42.033
actually, you know, you, you, you have
faith that they, in their ability to
00:17:42.033 --> 00:17:44.193
use this as part of a larger process.
00:17:45.198 --> 00:17:53.778
So, um, you know, if I'm talking to
you, uh, about, uh, something and
00:17:53.778 --> 00:17:56.868
you say this tool is just good, it
just immediately goes like waste
00:17:56.928 --> 00:17:59.088
waste at the top of my consideration.
00:17:59.148 --> 00:17:59.598
Let's yeah.
00:18:00.048 --> 00:18:03.378
So it's trying to find a
recommendation from a peer or
00:18:03.378 --> 00:18:03.768
Jon: better.
00:18:04.578 --> 00:18:06.828
And so you actively look for it right?
00:18:07.038 --> 00:18:12.048
When, when you have a
problem and it is that
00:18:12.048 --> 00:18:12.258
Jacob: right.
00:18:13.818 --> 00:18:14.568
Yeah.
00:18:14.808 --> 00:18:15.198
Yeah.
00:18:15.228 --> 00:18:22.088
So I, um, I normally am able, as long
as I can conceive of that being, uh, uh,
00:18:22.318 --> 00:18:23.868
a kind of a tool, which does the thing.
00:18:24.978 --> 00:18:29.718
So, um, I'm sure that there are
some things which I'm doing some
00:18:29.718 --> 00:18:31.728
problems that I'm having, that I
don't even realize that there's a
00:18:31.728 --> 00:18:32.928
tool which could help me with that.
00:18:33.738 --> 00:18:37.218
But with things like landing page
builders, like a concept in my brain,
00:18:38.178 --> 00:18:45.618
um, But then there are other things where
I'm like less, you know, I'm probably
00:18:45.618 --> 00:18:50.808
just not aware that this is something
which, um, could, uh, could help.
00:18:50.868 --> 00:18:51.138
Yeah.
00:18:51.618 --> 00:18:55.128
So wherever I bought a sense that,
that, that this is, this is a
00:18:55.128 --> 00:18:56.328
category of staying that I want.
00:18:57.168 --> 00:19:02.328
And, um, then I'll ask for opinions.
00:19:02.808 --> 00:19:03.018
And
00:19:03.328 --> 00:19:06.808
Jon: can you name any of the specific
Facebook groups that you've found useful?
00:19:08.268 --> 00:19:13.188
Jacob: Yeah, the, I mean the big one
for me, like huge, uh, just generally
00:19:13.188 --> 00:19:19.428
in my, my career for like the past three
years, the CXL, uh, compassion, but a
00:19:19.428 --> 00:19:21.828
group it's just absolutely enormous.
00:19:21.888 --> 00:19:32.673
Um, loads of the contacts that I've made,
the, um, uh, the recommendations, uh, Uh,
00:19:33.243 --> 00:19:36.663
yeah, that's another, I remember asking
about full my elastics on there as well.
00:19:36.663 --> 00:19:40.533
It's another thing we've got some
recommendations that, um, yeah,
00:19:40.533 --> 00:19:41.823
that's, that's always been a big one.
00:19:41.913 --> 00:19:48.123
Um, I feel like, uh, that there were
some other ones, like the Google tag
00:19:48.123 --> 00:19:51.573
manager one is, is another one, but it's
very specific to help within the tool.
00:19:52.263 --> 00:19:55.773
I'm trying to think of, oh yeah.
00:19:55.773 --> 00:20:05.028
Some interesting . Um, if I'm asking
about tool, you know, if I was asking
00:20:05.028 --> 00:20:08.328
tool agnostic, there's also like
superstar SEO, which is pretty good.
00:20:09.318 --> 00:20:16.998
Um, um, Google ad strategy with Kohl's
Soulard has never in a group ever,
00:20:17.028 --> 00:20:18.888
but like it's decent Google ads group.
00:20:18.918 --> 00:20:19.128
Yeah.
00:20:19.518 --> 00:20:22.548
So, yeah, so I'd say that
was like my, like one tier.
00:20:22.548 --> 00:20:24.978
And then I see above
that in terms of quality.
00:20:26.013 --> 00:20:27.693
Is the private slack groups.
00:20:28.353 --> 00:20:33.603
So, um, let's measure slack,
uh, which is excellent.
00:20:34.353 --> 00:20:35.763
Um, and.
00:20:37.863 --> 00:20:41.883
Uh, there's one or two smaller ones,
which I'm members of, which are just
00:20:41.883 --> 00:20:44.973
like some individual who I know is
like fully scaled and what they do.
00:20:44.973 --> 00:20:48.453
And they have their own
private slack group in on that.
00:20:48.813 --> 00:20:55.353
Um, yeah, but for these slack groups,
you need like the quality of the question
00:20:55.353 --> 00:20:58.893
that you need to ask to get a response
in those groups is extremely IST.
00:20:58.893 --> 00:21:01.563
You need, but you need to
clearly be asking her question.
00:21:02.778 --> 00:21:05.268
That is worth asking
people who know this much.
00:21:05.268 --> 00:21:07.458
So I go there, when I've got
a question where I'd like,
00:21:07.548 --> 00:21:09.198
just, just beat my brains out.
00:21:09.258 --> 00:21:10.458
I can't figure it out.
00:21:11.718 --> 00:21:13.368
I just get pleased, anyone.
00:21:14.748 --> 00:21:16.728
Um, yeah.
00:21:17.178 --> 00:21:23.958
And, um, uh, I would take a recommendation
from inside that extremely seriously.
00:21:24.678 --> 00:21:24.948
Yeah.
00:21:26.088 --> 00:21:30.528
Jon: That'd be great to have that
kind of squirt network around
00:21:30.888 --> 00:21:31.668
Jacob: and built it up.
00:21:32.268 --> 00:21:36.738
I built up really, really
painstakingly any, any opportunity.
00:21:37.128 --> 00:21:41.688
I literally added to one at recently
as a guy who just posted a lot
00:21:41.688 --> 00:21:44.988
on, um, uh, San Mar full styles.
00:21:44.988 --> 00:21:47.418
And he's very, he's clearly very good.
00:21:47.418 --> 00:21:48.768
And I've learned those from his posts.
00:21:49.788 --> 00:21:51.768
And then he just, he just
said, oh, I bought this.
00:21:51.918 --> 00:21:52.518
He mentioned.
00:21:53.343 --> 00:21:56.973
Almost done an offhand about like in his
private flat group, someone mentioned X.
00:21:57.063 --> 00:21:57.303
Yeah.
00:21:57.783 --> 00:22:00.633
I just commented, you know, the
bit in fight club where they're
00:22:00.633 --> 00:22:04.503
waiting outside the door, trying
to get membership to the club.
00:22:05.043 --> 00:22:06.333
I just, that that's me right now.
00:22:06.753 --> 00:22:07.623
Just waiting outside.
00:22:07.863 --> 00:22:08.913
And he gave somebody the invite.
00:22:09.423 --> 00:22:11.913
So, um, yeah.
00:22:12.003 --> 00:22:14.163
Uh, and, um, private,
private mastermind groups.
00:22:14.163 --> 00:22:15.573
Who've got other things like that as well.
00:22:15.573 --> 00:22:18.903
So some really excellent conversion.
00:22:19.683 --> 00:22:23.343
Optimization practitioner and you just
see the sheer quality of what he's
00:22:23.343 --> 00:22:27.183
posting and I've just, you know, it's
just being proactive with these things.
00:22:27.783 --> 00:22:31.113
Um, because as a, as a solo freelancer,
this is the thing that I'm just, I will
00:22:31.113 --> 00:22:32.823
just, I can easily be totally deficient.
00:22:32.823 --> 00:22:35.283
Then I can literally just talk to nobody.
00:22:35.763 --> 00:22:37.923
And I had exactly the same thing
when I was working in house.
00:22:37.953 --> 00:22:40.983
Like you just constantly know
more than everyone in the room
00:22:41.133 --> 00:22:42.153
about like your specialist.
00:22:43.293 --> 00:22:44.343
'cause it's just you.
00:22:44.493 --> 00:22:44.883
Yeah.
00:22:45.153 --> 00:22:47.223
Um, and that's not a good place to be.
00:22:47.293 --> 00:22:49.323
You need to constantly be
around people who have.
00:22:50.433 --> 00:22:52.833
You are, I'm challenging.
00:22:52.833 --> 00:22:55.473
You, you have, and then I think also
the other side, it's really good if
00:22:55.473 --> 00:22:58.863
you've, um, if you're, if you're trying
to impart that knowledge as well.
00:22:59.673 --> 00:23:02.613
Um, that's the biggest side though.
00:23:03.933 --> 00:23:04.263
That's
00:23:05.313 --> 00:23:05.883
Jon: really useful.
00:23:06.123 --> 00:23:07.053
Interesting stuff though.
00:23:07.113 --> 00:23:08.373
I'm conscious of time.
00:23:08.373 --> 00:23:10.293
We're already up to 23 minutes.
00:23:10.383 --> 00:23:10.983
Um, you're right.
00:23:10.983 --> 00:23:11.913
To keep going for a bit.
00:23:11.913 --> 00:23:12.843
I've got a couple more questions.
00:23:16.698 --> 00:23:20.148
So, uh, well, where are we up to?
00:23:20.268 --> 00:23:28.908
Um, was there, um, anyone that
you needed to sort of, uh, have
00:23:28.908 --> 00:23:30.468
weigh in on your decision to buy?
00:23:30.498 --> 00:23:34.338
I think you mentioned this also earlier
because you were working in house at the
00:23:34.338 --> 00:23:39.528
time, and so you, you have a boss that was
going to sign off on the, on the purchase.
00:23:40.038 --> 00:23:41.298
Um, yeah.
00:23:41.628 --> 00:23:44.688
And is that similar now
or how, how do you make.
00:23:50.553 --> 00:23:51.573
Jacob: Uh, so it's interesting.
00:23:51.573 --> 00:23:55.173
So when I work with, so yeah, at the time
it's just, the boss needed the decision
00:23:55.173 --> 00:24:00.153
and he was, um, one of the real strengths
of that company was that if you wanted
00:24:00.153 --> 00:24:06.273
some software, you wouldn't end up in
some just tedious debate about, you
00:24:06.273 --> 00:24:08.373
know, relatively small amounts of money.
00:24:08.403 --> 00:24:09.573
You just get the thing.
00:24:09.693 --> 00:24:09.963
Yeah.
00:24:10.593 --> 00:24:12.213
Um, that's, that's great.
00:24:12.333 --> 00:24:23.448
So, um, Next company I was at, um, I did
get some rough, uh, and I think I, that
00:24:23.448 --> 00:24:27.498
was with like the initial bit of momentum
that I had as a new person coming in.
00:24:27.538 --> 00:24:29.628
I was just like, this is
the tool of my, I need this.
00:24:29.628 --> 00:24:30.438
This is what I use.
00:24:31.878 --> 00:24:35.028
Um, and I think it's, that was fine.
00:24:35.748 --> 00:24:37.638
Um, when I've, I.
00:24:39.378 --> 00:24:45.498
I helped move, uh, an agency I've done
some work with, to summarize as well.
00:24:46.248 --> 00:24:54.408
And again, they were using muzzle ready
and I was really like up for just being
00:24:54.408 --> 00:24:57.438
like, oh yeah, no, I just use most,
if I can do the stuff I do at SEMrush
00:24:57.438 --> 00:25:01.068
and most and fantastic, but I just
couldn't quite do it in the same way.
00:25:01.068 --> 00:25:03.288
And workflow and process becomes a big.
00:25:04.188 --> 00:25:06.978
So a lot of the time, if I'm working
with clients to say like, look,
00:25:07.038 --> 00:25:09.198
here's the tool, but here's also
the workflow and process behind it.
00:25:10.128 --> 00:25:13.848
And with, with SEMrush, you can fit
it into work flows and processes.
00:25:14.628 --> 00:25:22.428
Um, and yeah, and also a, um, it
works it's really, really good
00:25:22.428 --> 00:25:28.878
for, um, moderately successful and
above small and medium businesses.
00:25:29.418 --> 00:25:33.258
I think once you start getting
increasingly complex website,
00:25:34.083 --> 00:25:39.903
And you start getting, um,
the investment in SEO becomes
00:25:39.903 --> 00:25:43.833
progressively more, um, worthwhile.
00:25:44.733 --> 00:25:46.623
Then you need to start
expanding your toolkit.
00:25:46.623 --> 00:25:52.083
So a lot of people use pH rights, um,
because it's just better, but things
00:25:52.083 --> 00:25:55.593
like link-building air trust just
acknowledged as being a better tool.
00:25:56.283 --> 00:25:59.073
Um, but San Francisco very
good at doing lots of.
00:25:59.988 --> 00:26:02.298
So it's quite a, it's
slightly easiest, Alex.
00:26:02.298 --> 00:26:03.588
It's like, can we just get this?
00:26:03.588 --> 00:26:07.818
And it'll cover lots of bases rather
than let's get this kind of ecosystem
00:26:08.418 --> 00:26:11.718
of, you know, it's funny how some
are actually does do lots of things.
00:26:12.038 --> 00:26:15.798
And if you were to go back 10 years,
there used to be more like separate,
00:26:16.218 --> 00:26:17.508
separate tools doing these things.
00:26:17.508 --> 00:26:18.948
And some are just kind of bring us
00:26:18.948 --> 00:26:22.578
Jon: into, you mentioned H refs,
would that be something that
00:26:22.578 --> 00:26:24.618
you use instead of SEMrush?
00:26:25.128 --> 00:26:25.398
Sorry.
00:26:26.928 --> 00:26:28.398
Jacob: Um, you know, I never used.
00:26:29.778 --> 00:26:30.168
Myself.
00:26:30.168 --> 00:26:31.758
I just know that loads
of people do use that.
00:26:31.968 --> 00:26:38.448
And I know that if, uh, um, if I
was in a position where I was in
00:26:38.448 --> 00:26:45.948
any way responsible for extensive
link-building then, um, I would
00:26:45.948 --> 00:26:47.058
definitely at least try it.
00:26:47.448 --> 00:26:47.718
Right.
00:26:48.078 --> 00:26:50.148
Um, I know it does other things as well.
00:26:51.458 --> 00:26:56.673
Um, One of the things hair,
as well as that light.
00:26:56.673 --> 00:26:59.493
Let's just that you've got
to look at like where your
00:26:59.493 --> 00:27:00.933
bottlenecks are and your processes.
00:27:01.023 --> 00:27:08.733
And, um, so often, like there are multiple
tools that will do things well enough
00:27:09.603 --> 00:27:11.283
for the level that you can execute.
00:27:13.863 --> 00:27:17.373
You know, in most small medium-sized
businesses, there's just a limit to how
00:27:17.373 --> 00:27:20.073
well they can execute any ex STO work.
00:27:20.493 --> 00:27:25.503
And so the amount of extra benefit that
you'd get from having lots of tools
00:27:26.343 --> 00:27:27.903
just doesn't translate into actual.
00:27:29.073 --> 00:27:30.033
Real changes.
00:27:30.213 --> 00:27:32.913
It's just, oh, I've got lots of
fancy tools, but I've got like this
00:27:32.913 --> 00:27:36.483
really limited amount of actual work
practical changes and what I can do.
00:27:37.083 --> 00:27:38.523
And so I felt like SEMrush is quite good.
00:27:39.063 --> 00:27:40.083
I could level.
00:27:40.983 --> 00:27:41.133
Yeah.
00:27:41.193 --> 00:27:42.093
Cause you can just go, right.
00:27:42.123 --> 00:27:42.513
Okay.
00:27:42.993 --> 00:27:44.463
This covers covers my basis.
00:27:44.463 --> 00:27:46.953
Anything that I would want to do, this
will give me the adequate support for it.
00:27:48.123 --> 00:27:48.813
Jon: Makes sense.
00:27:49.623 --> 00:27:56.218
Um, and so if, uh, If SEMrush
disappeared, um, tomorrow and you
00:27:56.218 --> 00:28:01.438
weren't able to use it, what would
those unit you comfortable with the
00:28:01.438 --> 00:28:02.938
tools that would fill the gap that,
00:28:05.458 --> 00:28:08.818
Jacob: um, I think the main thing, yes.
00:28:08.878 --> 00:28:10.138
I think I could definitely do.
00:28:10.168 --> 00:28:13.058
Like, there's nothing that like, if
they do, which I don't think I, I
00:28:13.078 --> 00:28:16.608
could do in some other way, there are
all the keyword research tools out.
00:28:17.463 --> 00:28:26.103
Um, um, I think I would just
have to relearn some of my
00:28:26.103 --> 00:28:28.383
privacy practices or alter them.
00:28:28.953 --> 00:28:33.813
So, um, like a core part of when I
do technical audits, of course part
00:28:33.813 --> 00:28:39.363
is just going through the summary
report first, um, and pulling out
00:28:39.363 --> 00:28:40.683
what looks relevant from that.
00:28:41.943 --> 00:28:43.983
And it's a couple of, so
many things so quickly.
00:28:44.643 --> 00:28:49.893
Um, I would have to look at like,
okay, how do I do this manually in
00:28:49.893 --> 00:28:55.623
screaming frog, or how do I am, you
know, what other tools do the same thing?
00:28:56.553 --> 00:28:58.833
Um, yeah.
00:29:01.593 --> 00:29:02.853
Jon: And to understand that process.
00:29:02.853 --> 00:29:08.163
So SEMrush will give you, um,
is that a list of keywords or
00:29:08.223 --> 00:29:09.963
issues at that at that point?
00:29:11.133 --> 00:29:11.663
Jacob: Yeah.
00:29:11.923 --> 00:29:14.283
So, um, you've got like a Crow.
00:29:14.313 --> 00:29:16.233
What I call it, like the cruel report.
00:29:16.323 --> 00:29:22.383
So basically they, um, it's like a full
site audit and that's the technical stuff.
00:29:22.413 --> 00:29:28.083
Like how your site is set up,
um, things like, you know, your
00:29:28.113 --> 00:29:29.973
method descriptions or your.
00:29:31.413 --> 00:29:33.663
EMA or your internal
linking and stuff like that.
00:29:35.583 --> 00:29:42.693
So Ross just let you run a report
on all of those issues at once.
00:29:43.623 --> 00:29:49.043
And then, um, from that report, then I go
through that and I, I, you know, I look
00:29:49.103 --> 00:29:51.783
at picture it manually and I go, okay,
here's an issue that needs a bit more.
00:29:52.113 --> 00:29:53.283
So there's an issue
which needs a bit more.
00:29:54.063 --> 00:29:55.053
Um, probing that.
00:29:55.053 --> 00:29:58.743
Am I going to screaming, frog and
then an investigator a bit more
00:29:58.743 --> 00:30:00.153
or depending on what the issue is?
00:30:01.443 --> 00:30:05.853
Um, so, but it forms my core thing.
00:30:05.883 --> 00:30:09.483
It's just gone and it's gone all
the checking it's it's it's the,
00:30:09.483 --> 00:30:15.033
the, it, it C it means that I won't
have had to have done what would
00:30:15.063 --> 00:30:18.843
literally take dozens of hours to do.
00:30:19.623 --> 00:30:21.753
Depending on the site, it
could be crazy amounts of time.
00:30:22.713 --> 00:30:24.123
Um, it's just dumb.
00:30:25.023 --> 00:30:30.033
Um, and you know, other, other
other sites would do this,
00:30:30.093 --> 00:30:31.893
but I would need to get that.
00:30:31.953 --> 00:30:35.373
It's just that while I was doing research,
right, I've got this report and this
00:30:35.373 --> 00:30:36.843
provides like a nice backbone for me.
00:30:37.533 --> 00:30:40.413
Um, Um,
00:30:41.283 --> 00:30:41.553
Jon: yeah.
00:30:42.213 --> 00:30:42.663
All right.
00:30:43.263 --> 00:30:46.893
That's been super insightful.
00:30:47.073 --> 00:30:53.073
Um, I've learned loads, having not used
these tools much my myself, but is there
00:30:53.133 --> 00:30:57.903
anything else you think I should know
about your experience of using SEMrush?
00:30:59.433 --> 00:31:02.193
Jacob: I think it's, I think
it's, um, it's your experience?
00:31:02.223 --> 00:31:05.883
It's going from like user
friendliness has gone from being.
00:31:07.158 --> 00:31:09.738
Really bad to mediocre.
00:31:11.148 --> 00:31:20.088
Um, he used to be so, um, uh, it
was so hard to find what you wanted.
00:31:20.778 --> 00:31:22.038
It's still not easy.
00:31:22.908 --> 00:31:26.388
Um, there are so many options.
00:31:26.838 --> 00:31:30.258
There are so, so, so, so many options
and it, it definitely feels like.
00:31:31.263 --> 00:31:34.083
Uh, an agglomeration of
lots of different tools.
00:31:35.073 --> 00:31:40.743
Um, and that's taken precedence over
its user-friendliness as a tool.
00:31:41.293 --> 00:31:44.723
You definitely don't get it.
00:31:44.723 --> 00:31:48.933
It's definitely against that
kind of, oh, I'm new in the tool.
00:31:49.113 --> 00:31:51.603
Let's cut down the number of
decisions that I have to make so that
00:31:51.603 --> 00:31:53.283
I get in and I get stuff using it.
00:31:53.283 --> 00:31:54.573
Start getting value immediately.
00:31:54.573 --> 00:31:57.873
Like that is not a sudden rush.
00:31:57.873 --> 00:32:00.033
It's like, here are so many
things that you can do.
00:32:01.893 --> 00:32:05.673
You figure out a way of using them and you
figure out your own workflows and stuff.
00:32:05.703 --> 00:32:10.893
Like it's, it's something that I've
really had to learn to work with
00:32:11.693 --> 00:32:13.173
to come up with what flows around.
00:32:13.323 --> 00:32:13.593
Jon: Yep.
00:32:15.123 --> 00:32:15.753
Struggle.
00:32:16.593 --> 00:32:17.883
Jacob: Um, yeah.
00:32:19.488 --> 00:32:23.868
Um, and I feel like that's, that's
one of the major gaps with it, with
00:32:23.868 --> 00:32:31.728
a torch there's so many things is
actually having strong workflows because
00:32:31.748 --> 00:32:35.868
it's so easy just to get like all of
these, like Google analytics, right?
00:32:35.928 --> 00:32:41.388
Like a, you have this preponderance
of reports I spring as it just
00:32:41.388 --> 00:32:42.888
to kind of dive in and get lost.
00:32:43.818 --> 00:32:47.588
Um, and so the, the,
the really cool thing.
00:32:48.933 --> 00:32:54.693
SEMrush is knowing when to use what
tools at what stage and what to do
00:32:54.693 --> 00:32:57.013
with the outputs of them and happy.
00:32:57.013 --> 00:33:05.403
You know, it's very, um, it's a very kind
of multi-purpose tool, but it's certainly
00:33:05.403 --> 00:33:10.533
not the kind of thing where you're going
to get the maximum value out of it easily.
00:33:11.718 --> 00:33:14.428
Um, yeah.
00:33:16.098 --> 00:33:18.618
Jon: If you had a magic wand and
you could change one thing about
00:33:18.618 --> 00:33:20.568
SEMrush, what would it, would it be?
00:33:22.428 --> 00:33:30.438
Jacob: Um, I think that I would, Hmm.
00:33:32.688 --> 00:33:34.308
I feel like it's a more, always more of a.
00:33:36.798 --> 00:33:44.478
Conceptual thing where like, it could be
nice if it had some way of guiding people
00:33:44.478 --> 00:33:50.028
through a particular process, rather
than like giving you loads of reports.
00:33:50.628 --> 00:33:55.758
I'm working with people who sometimes,
um, when a client I'm working with gets
00:33:55.758 --> 00:34:02.523
SEMrush, you know, Uh, I often work
with people, um, who are, you know,
00:34:02.523 --> 00:34:04.953
they're not like asking your specialist
or they're early in their career.
00:34:04.953 --> 00:34:08.073
I was talking to someone literally
this morning talking through some
00:34:08.073 --> 00:34:10.983
Russian and different things that
he, that he could be doing in it.
00:34:11.763 --> 00:34:20.883
And, um, I feel like if there was a
way of organizing it so that you could
00:34:20.883 --> 00:34:22.083
just go, what are you trying to do?
00:34:23.508 --> 00:34:27.468
And then, you know, I'm trying to
find technical issues on my site.
00:34:27.498 --> 00:34:27.738
All right.
00:34:27.738 --> 00:34:28.038
Click.
00:34:28.038 --> 00:34:30.798
And then here's like this
checklist checklist do this.
00:34:31.758 --> 00:34:33.768
I feel like there's some, I
like walking people through
00:34:33.768 --> 00:34:36.048
the processes through SEMrush.
00:34:36.198 --> 00:34:44.028
I feel like it could be more,
more useful for newbies, but
00:34:44.028 --> 00:34:45.618
it's, you know, it's, it's tricky.
00:34:45.618 --> 00:34:46.338
I'm, I'm calling.
00:34:47.808 --> 00:34:52.878
All of how onboarding and making
tools, user friendly is like its
00:34:52.878 --> 00:34:55.698
own its own discipline, same thing.
00:34:56.628 --> 00:35:03.228
Um, and I I'm, I'm sure
that whoever's worked on it.
00:35:03.228 --> 00:35:04.728
It's like really organized over.
00:35:05.778 --> 00:35:07.548
But I just, I generally get the sense.
00:35:07.548 --> 00:35:09.408
It's just very easy to
get lost in the report.
00:35:10.248 --> 00:35:13.548
And sometimes it'd be nicer to have
some sense of where this fits into
00:35:13.548 --> 00:35:17.208
a broader process, particularly for
people who aren't familiar with that
00:35:18.498 --> 00:35:22.368
Jon: that's really very useful to hear.
00:35:22.428 --> 00:35:22.968
Thank you.
00:35:23.208 --> 00:35:28.158
Um, so that's the, uh,
end of my questions.
00:35:28.488 --> 00:35:32.358
Thank you again for taking the
time to share that experience.
00:35:33.183 --> 00:35:39.333
Um, is there anything, what else do you
think I should talk to if I was exploring
00:35:39.393 --> 00:35:45.303
more about SEMrush, um, who else would
be good people to ask where if you're
00:35:45.303 --> 00:35:48.693
not comfortable saying their name on
the, on the show, that's, that's fine.
00:35:49.083 --> 00:35:54.723
Um, but are there other, other people
that use, uh, use it a lot that you
00:35:54.723 --> 00:35:56.673
know, that you could introduce me?
00:35:58.848 --> 00:36:03.558
Jacob: Um, there's uh, Ooh, Hmm.
00:36:04.308 --> 00:36:08.748
There, uh, there are some people
who could potentially talk to him.
00:36:09.258 --> 00:36:14.928
Um, the reason I hesitate is because
of like, um, let us super busy.
00:36:15.228 --> 00:36:15.408
Yeah.
00:36:15.428 --> 00:36:21.118
So it, uh, it, I mean, you could,
you could certainly try, um, I would.
00:36:21.948 --> 00:36:23.888
If it's interesting, you
asked me like where, where I
00:36:23.898 --> 00:36:25.488
find information about that.
00:36:25.518 --> 00:36:27.378
Like someone like stupid stuff, SEO.
00:36:27.588 --> 00:36:28.848
I do this all the time.
00:36:29.268 --> 00:36:34.428
When I'm researching stuff for clients, I
will just find the niche Facebook group.
00:36:34.548 --> 00:36:34.788
Yeah.
00:36:35.538 --> 00:36:40.158
That I remember of that that's relevant
to whatever thing I'm working on.
00:36:41.238 --> 00:36:41.708
And then I.
00:36:43.008 --> 00:36:44.988
Whatever question I want to ask.
00:36:44.988 --> 00:36:46.368
I'll just stay, you know?
00:36:47.868 --> 00:36:48.198
Yeah.
00:36:48.228 --> 00:36:52.878
Like, like for example, if I'm trying to
find out, um, I have to find out, uh, I
00:36:52.878 --> 00:36:58.068
was writing some ads that were in, uh,
fiction writers and I wanted to get a
00:36:58.068 --> 00:36:59.678
sense of like, what's what's success.
00:36:59.688 --> 00:37:04.068
What, what, in terms of like
the, you know, what, what
00:37:04.068 --> 00:37:05.358
can I put into this coffee?
00:37:05.358 --> 00:37:06.498
That's going to make
it compelling to them.
00:37:06.498 --> 00:37:08.358
So I just asked them, like, what
does success mean to you as a.
00:37:09.498 --> 00:37:10.338
What does it picture it?
00:37:10.608 --> 00:37:12.318
What does, what does the
picture of success look like?
00:37:12.318 --> 00:37:15.558
You, I gave you only one of these
ideas and it's like, okay, brilliant.
00:37:16.668 --> 00:37:17.598
I can try these in ads.
00:37:17.898 --> 00:37:18.288
Right.
00:37:18.738 --> 00:37:23.418
Um, uh, so yeah, superstar,
Theo would be a pretty good one.
00:37:23.568 --> 00:37:23.838
Yeah.
00:37:24.138 --> 00:37:29.748
Um, there was some are styles, which
would obviously be a biased sample.
00:37:30.198 --> 00:37:33.408
Um, but then you've got,
um, guests you've star SEO.
00:37:33.528 --> 00:37:34.338
You'd get a ton of recent.
00:37:35.193 --> 00:37:35.523
Got it.
00:37:36.633 --> 00:37:37.113
Jon: Thank you.
00:37:37.923 --> 00:37:38.343
All right.
00:37:38.463 --> 00:37:42.423
Um, and, uh, yeah, that's really good.
00:37:42.423 --> 00:37:45.003
I mean, we've probably started to get
a picture of some of the work that you
00:37:45.003 --> 00:37:50.703
do, but can you tell me what, what,
uh, what you do if there's a way for
00:37:50.703 --> 00:37:54.353
people that are listening to work with
you, um, where we can find out more.
00:37:56.673 --> 00:37:56.943
Jacob: Yeah.
00:37:56.943 --> 00:38:01.713
So, um, I work with, um,
like a variety of businesses.
00:38:01.743 --> 00:38:06.183
It's been this really, really wide span
of businesses, um, particularly with
00:38:06.183 --> 00:38:12.483
like, um, stat and professional services,
but actually, um, brought it out a lot.
00:38:12.753 --> 00:38:15.453
Um, just multipurpose thing.
00:38:16.263 --> 00:38:19.563
And what I was hearing is, you know,
if, if you've got the sense of, oh,
00:38:19.563 --> 00:38:22.473
we could reach more people or, oh,
our website could convert more people.
00:38:23.133 --> 00:38:27.738
Um, Then, if he comes to me,
then I can help you figure out
00:38:27.738 --> 00:38:28.908
where these opportunities lie.
00:38:29.478 --> 00:38:38.028
Um, I think, um, one of the major
benefits of having someone who's
00:38:38.028 --> 00:38:42.408
external to your business have a look
at it is I can, you know, I can get
00:38:42.408 --> 00:38:45.168
the sense of like that bit where it's
talking about like the awareness.
00:38:46.548 --> 00:38:49.728
Uh, and why, like you have these
different kinds of areas, which
00:38:49.728 --> 00:38:51.108
are like particular target places.
00:38:51.708 --> 00:38:55.098
Um, because I do your SEO and do
a conversion rate optimization.
00:38:55.098 --> 00:38:58.338
I'm very good at looking at like,
okay, maybe you want to create more
00:38:58.338 --> 00:39:03.408
content here, or maybe you want
to, um, improve this landing page.
00:39:03.408 --> 00:39:05.928
Or maybe you, you know, this
bit is conceptually wrong.
00:39:06.558 --> 00:39:08.958
It's just about finding
places where you could grow.
00:39:09.693 --> 00:39:14.403
And improve, identifying them
coming up with a plan to, to,
00:39:14.403 --> 00:39:16.233
to, to, to grow your business
00:39:17.733 --> 00:39:18.213
Jon: excellence.
00:39:18.333 --> 00:39:19.713
Where on the web, can we find that,
00:39:20.523 --> 00:39:23.403
Jacob: uh, it's funnel
marketing.com and follow us?
00:39:23.433 --> 00:39:29.193
Actually, my name that's F U
double N E double L marketing.com.
00:39:29.313 --> 00:39:36.843
So it's, um, I think it's got an acronym
for your work, reflect your, um, name.
00:39:38.358 --> 00:39:43.008
So, yeah, I was recently told by a
business owner that my site is very
00:39:43.008 --> 00:39:46.128
easy to understand, but there's a state.
00:39:46.158 --> 00:39:48.678
So if you go there, hopefully you'll
get the answers that you need.
00:39:50.568 --> 00:39:52.008
Jon: I would say the same.
00:39:52.048 --> 00:39:52.698
It is.
00:39:52.968 --> 00:39:53.418
It's great.
00:39:53.418 --> 00:39:55.038
But you know, I'm very
fortunate to have worked with.
00:39:55.878 --> 00:40:00.438
Both all the way, way back, um, when
you had that, uh, in-house role.
00:40:00.558 --> 00:40:04.848
And, um, I was, you know, I
was impressed, uh, then, um,
00:40:04.938 --> 00:40:06.348
about the quality of your work.
00:40:06.408 --> 00:40:11.028
And, um, I've been very, uh, glad
to be able to hire a few times, um,
00:40:11.058 --> 00:40:13.218
to work with a couple of different
clients that I've worked with.
00:40:13.608 --> 00:40:19.038
Um, and I can, uh, yeah, I will keep
hiring you because I'm, we're actually
00:40:19.038 --> 00:40:21.228
about to have a conversation about
one client that we're working with
00:40:21.228 --> 00:40:27.643
after, after this interview, um, Uh,
because yet Jacob is someone that, that
00:40:27.643 --> 00:40:29.773
knows us, knows his stuff on, on this.
00:40:29.803 --> 00:40:33.853
I'm quite a generalist and I
really need an expert on SEO.
00:40:33.943 --> 00:40:37.363
Um, and I'm in conversion
rate optimization.
00:40:37.363 --> 00:40:41.173
Jacob's the person that like go
to, um, so, uh, yeah, check, check
00:40:41.173 --> 00:40:43.393
out his website, funnel marketing.
00:40:45.063 --> 00:40:47.983
, so my last leading question, um, we.
00:40:48.873 --> 00:40:52.713
Can you, um, and they may be a piece of
software that you've already mentioned,
00:40:52.773 --> 00:40:57.483
um, earlier, but are there three pieces
of software, um, maybe relate to this
00:40:57.483 --> 00:41:00.843
conversation or just generally that you've
used recently or bought recently that
00:41:00.843 --> 00:41:02.583
you would recommend people check out?
00:41:04.443 --> 00:41:09.633
Jacob: Um, I am going to be
extremely generic on this.
00:41:10.623 --> 00:41:16.173
I think that one is a studio.
00:41:16.353 --> 00:41:17.733
Obviously people have had.
00:41:19.353 --> 00:41:22.743
But the amount of clients I
see who do their reporting
00:41:22.743 --> 00:41:24.123
right out of Google analytics.
00:41:24.633 --> 00:41:26.973
So high, you need to get it.
00:41:27.273 --> 00:41:31.443
You need to get it into Google data studio
because analytics is not a reporting tool.
00:41:31.473 --> 00:41:32.643
It's a data store.
00:41:32.733 --> 00:41:34.683
Analytics is not a reporting tool.
00:41:35.013 --> 00:41:36.123
It's just a data store.
00:41:36.183 --> 00:41:40.083
It was designed with
your reporting in mind.
00:41:40.503 --> 00:41:42.303
That's why they crazy Google data studio.
00:41:43.053 --> 00:41:45.183
If you use Google
analytics for your reports.
00:41:46.143 --> 00:41:48.783
You're costing yourself time and
you're not getting your information
00:41:48.783 --> 00:41:49.863
across as well as you can.
00:41:50.103 --> 00:41:54.333
Google data studio is free and it
takes, you can learn how to use it
00:41:54.423 --> 00:41:56.733
well enough to like create a dashboard.
00:41:56.763 --> 00:41:58.413
You can learn it in a day.
00:41:59.793 --> 00:42:03.633
So there's really, really, really,
really no excuse not to use data
00:42:03.633 --> 00:42:05.043
studio now, like you should.
00:42:05.793 --> 00:42:08.073
Um, but that's my harangue.
00:42:08.703 --> 00:42:11.013
Uh, that's the first part.
00:42:11.883 --> 00:42:19.963
Um, I think, um, I'm going to, again,
this is another one, which I think is
00:42:19.963 --> 00:42:27.073
like widely known, uh, lots of people use
Hotjar, but I think, uh, lots of people
00:42:27.073 --> 00:42:31.933
don't get enough, uh, value as they could
out of the surveys, functionality of that.
00:42:32.503 --> 00:42:37.723
Just asking if you don't have any surveys
to up on your site, then if you're an
00:42:37.783 --> 00:42:41.323
e-commerce site, then set up a question,
which just does both one thing that's
00:42:41.323 --> 00:42:42.613
holding you back from making a purchase.
00:42:43.818 --> 00:42:44.028
Yeah.
00:42:44.148 --> 00:42:51.108
If, um, you've got a lead gen site
as a question, what's one thing that
00:42:51.318 --> 00:42:52.668
almost stopped me getting in touch.
00:42:54.168 --> 00:43:01.098
Um, if you've got, uh, like, uh, as such,
but, and you've just, just after someone
00:43:01.098 --> 00:43:04.458
purchased, just ask, but what's one thing
that almost prevented you from buying
00:43:04.458 --> 00:43:08.718
today and the amount of feedback you get.
00:43:08.928 --> 00:43:10.938
And also often the consistency of that.
00:43:12.093 --> 00:43:14.673
Um, it's storytelling it's
supposed so, so valuable.
00:43:15.663 --> 00:43:21.063
Um, so yeah, Hotjar, uh, is it's still
remains like, um, the easiest one
00:43:21.063 --> 00:43:25.713
stop shop for this sort of thing, even
though they've increased their prices.
00:43:26.373 --> 00:43:35.343
Um, and for a piece of software,
I think it's particularly useful.
00:43:37.338 --> 00:43:42.018
I think another one, uh, particularly
in GDPR times, uh, is cookie box.
00:43:42.828 --> 00:43:46.848
Um, it's just a very easy way.
00:43:46.878 --> 00:43:50.778
So if you pass cookie bot with Google
tag manager, then all of the stuff
00:43:50.808 --> 00:43:54.018
where people ended up getting in,
in like tying themselves in knots,
00:43:54.048 --> 00:43:57.078
over GDPR and permissions and stuff,
it just integrates photography.
00:43:58.773 --> 00:44:04.623
It's not expensive and it's
way better than trying to
00:44:04.623 --> 00:44:06.243
build your own thing in house.
00:44:06.393 --> 00:44:10.473
Just like, I think when GDPR first
came out, people just instinctively
00:44:10.473 --> 00:44:13.563
went to the web developers
to try and create something.
00:44:13.743 --> 00:44:16.473
And you can give better to
that in just install this thing
00:44:16.773 --> 00:44:17.853
integrates the tag manager.
00:44:17.853 --> 00:44:22.383
So it means that the things that
you're using will be compliant.
00:44:23.073 --> 00:44:26.133
Um, Yeah, those
00:44:26.133 --> 00:44:26.883
Jon: would be my three.
00:44:27.453 --> 00:44:27.753
Perfect.
00:44:28.143 --> 00:44:29.103
Thank you very much, Jacob.
00:44:31.293 --> 00:44:33.093
Again, it's been brilliant to have you on.
00:44:33.333 --> 00:44:39.213
Um, and, uh, yeah, I was looking forward
to our next conversation about a specific,
00:44:39.363 --> 00:44:41.253
um, plant that we're both working with.
00:44:42.123 --> 00:44:44.403
Um, but yeah, take a
00:44:45.333 --> 00:44:45.903
Jacob: code test.
00:44:48.026 --> 00:44:51.716
Jon: That was hopefully a useful
example of a customer interview.
00:44:52.856 --> 00:44:56.936
You can find notes from this episode,
including links to all the products
00:44:56.936 --> 00:44:59.486
mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.
00:45:00.416 --> 00:45:03.926
If you know anyone who might benefit
from hearing this perspective,
00:45:04.256 --> 00:45:05.306
please share the episode.
00:45:07.151 --> 00:45:07.991
And word of caution.
00:45:08.591 --> 00:45:11.591
This interview is a snapshot of
just one person's perspective
00:45:11.861 --> 00:45:13.421
in an artificial situation.
00:45:14.081 --> 00:45:17.261
You should be very careful about
drawing any conclusions about
00:45:17.261 --> 00:45:21.101
the guest people like them or the
product from this single data point.
00:45:22.331 --> 00:45:25.841
Customer interviews are most valuable
when you see parallels across, many
00:45:25.841 --> 00:45:28.091
of them will be in a specific context.
00:45:28.961 --> 00:45:31.841
I'd suggest a minimum of
five and ideally 12 to 15.
00:45:32.951 --> 00:45:36.911
I recommend the book, deploy
empathy by Michelle Hanson for a
00:45:36.911 --> 00:45:38.681
practical guide on how to do it.
00:45:38.711 --> 00:45:42.310
Well, if you'd like to join
me as a guest on a future
00:45:42.310 --> 00:45:44.080
episode, please send me a note.
00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:46.090
I'm jumped on Twitter.
00:45:46.390 --> 00:45:47.560
That's J O T.
00:45:47.890 --> 00:45:49.300
My DMS are open.
00:45:50.590 --> 00:45:54.400
You can also use the form at
empathy, deployed.com or email.
00:45:54.430 --> 00:45:56.020
Hello at empathy deployed.
00:45:57.865 --> 00:46:01.165
Please include the names and
addresses of free software products
00:46:01.585 --> 00:46:03.895
you use regularly and or pay for.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.193
Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the
podcast where you can experience an
00:00:04.193 --> 00:00:06.593
example customer interview every week.
00:00:07.001 --> 00:00:10.931
You'll discover new perspectives on
different software products and improve
00:00:10.931 --> 00:00:12.341
your customer interview technique.
00:00:12.611 --> 00:00:14.201
As I attempt to do the same
00:00:14.601 --> 00:00:19.581
I'm Jonathan Markwell and this week I'll
be interviewing Jacob funnel Jacobs.
00:00:19.701 --> 00:00:24.351
A customer of SEMrush stem rush
describes itself as an online
00:00:24.381 --> 00:00:26.061
visibility management platform.
00:00:26.992 --> 00:00:31.462
how are we trying to understand why
Jacob purchased some rush, how he uses
00:00:31.462 --> 00:00:33.832
it and what alternatives he's considered?
00:00:34.552 --> 00:00:38.752
Jacob's a freelance digital marketer
with a decade of experience helping
00:00:38.752 --> 00:00:41.032
SAS and professional service companies.
00:00:42.052 --> 00:00:42.652
Hi Jacob,
00:00:43.473 --> 00:00:43.923
.
Hello?
00:00:44.433 --> 00:00:44.763
Okay.
00:00:45.423 --> 00:00:47.793
Uh, thank you for taking the time today.
00:00:48.003 --> 00:00:56.283
Uh, I'm super excited to hear your
thoughts on, um, why, uh, you purchased
00:00:56.283 --> 00:00:58.113
a particular software product.
00:00:58.413 --> 00:01:05.133
Um, And, um, yeah, the goal of, uh, of,
of this podcast and these interviews
00:01:05.133 --> 00:01:09.843
is, is, uh, for, for me to practice,
uh, customer interviews, but also just
00:01:09.843 --> 00:01:13.803
to fill up people to experience other
people's experience of, of software.
00:01:14.403 --> 00:01:18.903
Um, uh, so, uh, before we get
started, if you've got any questions,
00:01:21.693 --> 00:01:23.223
Jacob: Uh, no, let's, let's dive in.
00:01:23.283 --> 00:01:23.583
Cool.
00:01:24.153 --> 00:01:29.463
Jon: Then, uh, the final thing to ask
you, if you're comfortable sharing with
00:01:29.483 --> 00:01:32.733
me recording this interview, as I've
already asked you as we are recording it.
00:01:32.943 --> 00:01:36.633
Um, but also, um, that we share it
publicly for the, for the benefit.
00:01:38.253 --> 00:01:40.383
Um, yeah, that's all cool.
00:01:40.983 --> 00:01:43.203
Um, what was it normally a customer
interview like this wouldn't be
00:01:43.203 --> 00:01:45.003
shared outside of the organization.
00:01:45.363 --> 00:01:48.333
Um, but, um, yeah, so this
is a, this is a public one.
00:01:48.603 --> 00:01:52.833
So if that's all cool, we'll
dive into a first question.
00:01:53.433 --> 00:01:58.443
Um, and so can you tell me a
little bit about how you got
00:01:58.443 --> 00:02:01.053
into needing, uh, SEMrush,
00:02:01.163 --> 00:02:01.553
Jacob: yeah.
00:02:01.553 --> 00:02:09.323
So, um, I used, um, a few STO
tools as part of doing SEO.
00:02:09.803 --> 00:02:10.973
Uh, just in house.
00:02:11.443 --> 00:02:18.833
I was, I was working for a small company
and, um, I was, you know, like responsible
00:02:18.833 --> 00:02:20.063
for all digital marketing stuff.
00:02:20.093 --> 00:02:22.463
Like when you're an exec, any small
companies you often end up in.
00:02:23.288 --> 00:02:24.728
You know, the everything guy.
00:02:25.508 --> 00:02:28.748
Um, and it used to use a SEO Moz.
00:02:28.808 --> 00:02:30.728
That was a, that was a tool
which was available at the time
00:02:31.548 --> 00:02:32.658
even before it's called months.
00:02:32.748 --> 00:02:32.958
Yeah.
00:02:33.138 --> 00:02:38.028
Um, but I just wanted to get some like,
decent information on, uh, keywords
00:02:38.028 --> 00:02:41.688
that were available, uh, in the industry
that I was working with at the time.
00:02:43.023 --> 00:02:46.653
And I just, I tried, uh, trials, a
few different products, and I just
00:02:46.653 --> 00:02:49.593
found that stem rough was just so
much better than everyone else.
00:02:50.013 --> 00:02:53.223
They just had a much wider
database of keywords.
00:02:53.703 --> 00:02:56.163
So it came from that keyboard
or such stuff to BMI.
00:02:56.253 --> 00:02:58.953
That was like the main motivating thing.
00:02:59.493 --> 00:03:00.123
Jon: Makes sense.
00:03:00.203 --> 00:03:00.553
Makes sense.
00:03:00.613 --> 00:03:05.433
Do you remember when it was, um, that,
uh, the staff first started paying for it?
00:03:06.393 --> 00:03:07.323
Author used to?
00:03:07.413 --> 00:03:10.383
Jacob: Um, I think so.
00:03:11.238 --> 00:03:16.518
Uh, as far as I recall, um, I was able
to make the case for it pretty easily.
00:03:16.518 --> 00:03:19.038
I sustain, you know, I'm using
this, can we use this and stuff?
00:03:19.068 --> 00:03:22.218
Most, I think most was
expiring anyway, at the time.
00:03:23.133 --> 00:03:26.343
So it's a little bit easier to make
the case when your, your existing
00:03:26.343 --> 00:03:28.983
thing's about to expire, because
you're not asking really for more
00:03:28.983 --> 00:03:31.243
money, you just ask them to spend
the same money in a different place.
00:03:31.263 --> 00:03:31.503
Jon: Right.
00:03:32.343 --> 00:03:34.923
Um, terms of time, uh,
00:03:35.763 --> 00:03:44.223
Jacob: uh, um, as in like before
present or into my bifocal, um, yikes.
00:03:44.253 --> 00:03:46.173
This is going to be ages ago.
00:03:47.613 --> 00:03:52.503
Maybe I'm guessing it's like 2017,
00:03:53.253 --> 00:03:53.463
Jon: right?
00:03:53.613 --> 00:03:53.913
Okay.
00:03:53.913 --> 00:03:55.023
Fears, fears, pain.
00:03:56.013 --> 00:04:01.443
Um, and so can you walk me
through the work that you're
00:04:01.443 --> 00:04:04.923
doing when you use, um, SEM rush?
00:04:05.013 --> 00:04:07.833
Um, what's the end result
that you're trying to get to?
00:04:10.083 --> 00:04:18.558
Jacob: Yeah, so generally speaking,
um, I use this for pretty much any,
00:04:18.648 --> 00:04:20.148
any SEO project I'm involved with.
00:04:20.718 --> 00:04:25.458
Um, and I think the reason for
that is it's really good at just
00:04:25.458 --> 00:04:26.928
use it doing lots of things.
00:04:26.958 --> 00:04:35.688
Well, um, so for example, if I have
a new site to look up, um, as a full
00:04:35.688 --> 00:04:39.708
site audit report, so working on your
plan, then you site, and they want
00:04:39.708 --> 00:04:41.118
to know what's wrong with a slate.
00:04:41.418 --> 00:04:44.028
Is there anything in terms of
how it's bill that's wrong?
00:04:45.228 --> 00:04:48.288
And that full site audit report
is a very good starting point.
00:04:48.918 --> 00:04:51.738
You can't like completely
trust any crueler.
00:04:52.158 --> 00:04:55.698
Um, by itself they will come up with
issues that aren't really issues.
00:04:55.788 --> 00:05:02.208
Um, and it's, um, it's not as
comprehensive as, as doing everything you
00:05:02.208 --> 00:05:06.018
could and something like screaming frog,
for example, which goes into way more, way
00:05:06.018 --> 00:05:08.538
more detail, uh, and requires a lot more.
00:05:09.663 --> 00:05:15.063
Um, configuration, but in
terms of spotting the, uh,
00:05:15.953 --> 00:05:17.403
the, the spotting, the big.
00:05:18.948 --> 00:05:19.968
And doing it quickly.
00:05:20.628 --> 00:05:21.348
It's really good.
00:05:22.398 --> 00:05:25.158
And I think it's like, uh, so
yeah, it's really, really, really
00:05:25.158 --> 00:05:27.348
useful in that first stage when
I was ordered to signify it.
00:05:27.348 --> 00:05:28.878
I'm just trying to go like,
what's, what's going on here.
00:05:29.148 --> 00:05:29.928
I'll say keywords.
00:05:29.928 --> 00:05:30.168
Okay.
00:05:30.708 --> 00:05:31.608
What are they ranking for?
00:05:31.998 --> 00:05:33.348
What's the technical side of things.
00:05:33.348 --> 00:05:34.548
How's the site fit together?
00:05:34.548 --> 00:05:35.358
Is there anything wrong with that?
00:05:35.358 --> 00:05:35.478
Yeah.
00:05:35.658 --> 00:05:39.378
Jon: Can you give me some examples
that anyone would recognize of
00:05:39.378 --> 00:05:40.728
an issue that it might flag it?
00:05:42.558 --> 00:05:43.038
Jacob: Yeah.
00:05:43.038 --> 00:05:51.168
So often when you're building a site,
um, Uh, the focus tends to be on,
00:05:51.168 --> 00:05:52.848
okay, let's just get the site live.
00:05:52.848 --> 00:05:54.768
We want to make sure
that the design is right.
00:05:54.888 --> 00:05:56.688
There are things that people can see.
00:05:57.528 --> 00:06:01.038
If you feel you're making a psychic,
you're always looking at the things that
00:06:01.038 --> 00:06:06.828
you can see about the slate and you,
anyone can spot if like the navigation
00:06:07.098 --> 00:06:09.918
to navigation menus don't function
as, as supposed to, you can spot
00:06:09.918 --> 00:06:13.878
that, but SEO issues tend to get lost.
00:06:14.208 --> 00:06:21.108
And so, for example, um, Errors that
you might see things like this as it
00:06:21.108 --> 00:06:25.698
relates to your mail tag, which tells the
browser, these are the words that should
00:06:25.698 --> 00:06:28.308
appear at the top of the browser tap.
00:06:29.028 --> 00:06:31.878
So, uh, and so that's the title tag.
00:06:32.568 --> 00:06:35.148
And sometimes I work with sites
and they've got like seven.
00:06:36.138 --> 00:06:37.068
And they're completely invisible.
00:06:37.068 --> 00:06:38.898
You won't spot that unless
you crawl your site.
00:06:39.018 --> 00:06:39.318
Right.
00:06:39.588 --> 00:06:43.848
Uh, and then you've got more
insidious, more technical things.
00:06:43.938 --> 00:06:48.048
So for example, if you've got the
same content translated into different
00:06:48.048 --> 00:06:55.488
languages, sometimes, um, you won't
have set up correctly to tell Google.
00:06:56.373 --> 00:06:58.653
This to sustain article,
but in different languages.
00:06:58.863 --> 00:06:59.103
Yeah.
00:06:59.313 --> 00:07:01.653
Uh, yeah, more technical still.
00:07:01.683 --> 00:07:06.813
You might have things like you've
used structured data and you've
00:07:06.813 --> 00:07:10.023
tried to tell Google I have a
software product and here's all of
00:07:10.023 --> 00:07:11.523
the bits of information about this.
00:07:12.393 --> 00:07:13.983
And quite often that's
incorrectly assessed.
00:07:14.703 --> 00:07:17.403
So basically it's all kinds
of things that are hidden.
00:07:17.673 --> 00:07:20.073
You won't be able to see
them just by going to a page.
00:07:20.073 --> 00:07:21.783
It might be perfectly fine,
but then behind the scenes,
00:07:23.208 --> 00:07:23.508
Jon: Got it.
00:07:23.748 --> 00:07:24.078
Correct.
00:07:24.228 --> 00:07:24.888
Makes sense.
00:07:25.518 --> 00:07:29.958
Um, and so what, what other tools
or things have you done manually
00:07:30.018 --> 00:07:35.508
to try and solve the same problems
that you solve by using SEMrush?
00:07:37.008 --> 00:07:40.878
Jacob: I think the big ones in terms
of like keyboard except stuff, um,
00:07:42.078 --> 00:07:49.458
uh, Back in the day you would use,
um, Google ads, keyword planner, um,
00:07:50.208 --> 00:07:52.188
it's becomes increasingly tricky.
00:07:52.188 --> 00:07:54.768
You need like an actual paid
ad account to do that now.
00:07:54.798 --> 00:07:59.158
So if you were trying to do it free, uh,
you just don't have that option anymore.
00:07:59.268 --> 00:08:00.408
You have just going straight to Google.
00:08:01.188 --> 00:08:06.288
Um, and also I feel like I just
have an easier time using some
00:08:06.288 --> 00:08:12.243
Russia's tool than I do with, um,
Uh, easing, easing out to planner.
00:08:12.603 --> 00:08:14.403
It's just a bit more intuitively laid out.
00:08:15.093 --> 00:08:21.843
Um, in terms of site, uh, audit
seemed like technical audit.
00:08:22.683 --> 00:08:30.213
Um, we've got things like screaming,
frog, um, but in the absence of any
00:08:30.213 --> 00:08:32.463
other tools, which is often where
people start, especially if they're in
00:08:32.473 --> 00:08:35.793
house, they don't have anything, then
you end up checking stuff manually.
00:08:36.033 --> 00:08:40.923
So you might get like a plugin and it
becomes, there's so many things where
00:08:40.923 --> 00:08:42.573
like, humans shouldn't be doing them.
00:08:42.873 --> 00:08:44.453
Like it shouldn't be
like manually checking.
00:08:45.393 --> 00:08:49.953
Your metadata page by page, you should
just, you should just get that crawled
00:08:49.953 --> 00:08:51.903
and done in the report in seconds.
00:08:51.963 --> 00:08:52.203
Yup.
00:08:52.683 --> 00:08:56.613
Um, so yeah, that's
another alternative, uh,
00:08:57.093 --> 00:09:01.443
Jon: literally clicking B-cells at a page
00:09:02.073 --> 00:09:02.763
Jacob: on page at a time.
00:09:02.793 --> 00:09:03.063
Yeah.
00:09:03.063 --> 00:09:05.943
So that'd be like the most
formative way of doing it possible.
00:09:06.303 --> 00:09:10.443
And then like the next step step up would
be installing like a Chrome extension.
00:09:10.443 --> 00:09:11.853
I have a Chrome extension that does that.
00:09:11.853 --> 00:09:16.473
So if I'm on a particular page, Uh, and
I'm really focusing on that patient.
00:09:16.473 --> 00:09:18.573
I have a lot of stuff, but
like if you're getting a whole
00:09:18.573 --> 00:09:20.223
site, so this whole site stuff.
00:09:20.523 --> 00:09:20.793
Yeah.
00:09:20.943 --> 00:09:23.253
Anything, anything in
any level of quantity?
00:09:23.283 --> 00:09:25.683
You just, you, you want
the tool to automate this?
00:09:25.773 --> 00:09:25.983
Yup.
00:09:26.283 --> 00:09:26.643
Jon: Got it.
00:09:27.213 --> 00:09:27.783
Okay.
00:09:28.473 --> 00:09:36.663
Um, and can you tell me when you
first started thinking that you should
00:09:36.663 --> 00:09:38.373
use something else to get through?
00:09:39.318 --> 00:09:39.798
Done.
00:09:40.068 --> 00:09:48.948
Um, so may, I mean, obviously quite
awhile, while back in 2017, um, and
00:09:48.948 --> 00:09:50.088
you were an employee at the time.
00:09:52.158 --> 00:09:52.398
Jacob: Yeah.
00:09:52.428 --> 00:09:53.268
So that was I'm obsessed.
00:09:53.268 --> 00:09:54.378
I first started using this.
00:09:54.468 --> 00:10:03.948
Um, um, yeah, I, I think I just wanted
to, um, get more keywords for ads.
00:10:04.218 --> 00:10:09.018
I think that was one thing and
I also wanted to, um, yeah.
00:10:09.048 --> 00:10:14.238
Keep exploring for keywords for,
uh, the blog is a bit, I think one
00:10:14.238 --> 00:10:18.738
of the pinch points was that it was
quite difficult to find keywords.
00:10:18.738 --> 00:10:19.728
It felt like particularly.
00:10:20.973 --> 00:10:23.373
To the B2B audience that
we're trying to reach.
00:10:24.363 --> 00:10:32.673
Um, and honestly, like I think part of my
initial motivations, like the misguided,
00:10:32.853 --> 00:10:39.813
and I feel like I felt that was a big
reservoir of like B2B relevant keywords.
00:10:39.813 --> 00:10:42.453
That if only I could find it,
it would, you know, be there.
00:10:43.353 --> 00:10:46.503
But now that I've worked
with a lot more company.
00:10:47.463 --> 00:10:50.913
Um, I feel like I've got a better
understanding of the buying
00:10:50.913 --> 00:10:55.983
cycle and that how massively
differs from companies company.
00:10:56.343 --> 00:10:58.683
So the thought that I was thinking,
wow, there's just going to be this like,
00:10:58.703 --> 00:11:00.633
like undiscovered land of keywords.
00:11:00.633 --> 00:11:02.763
And if I managed to get them,
then, then, then I'll be able to
00:11:02.763 --> 00:11:04.113
get people on the site and apply.
00:11:04.833 --> 00:11:09.903
Whereas now I think a lot more about like,
well for companies, a lot of the time.
00:11:11.088 --> 00:11:13.548
A person just has the training need.
00:11:13.638 --> 00:11:18.798
And then they start Googling things
about like, you know, X training course,
00:11:20.088 --> 00:11:22.488
and you just got to get them there.
00:11:22.698 --> 00:11:25.278
Then you gotta put a lot of effort
into making sure you get them there.
00:11:26.568 --> 00:11:31.188
And the, the stage before that,
while they've got like awareness of
00:11:31.188 --> 00:11:34.338
a problem and all the rest of it,
I mean, you will get such stands
00:11:34.338 --> 00:11:38.088
around there, but like the, the
overwhelming, like, wait, is that, that
00:11:38.088 --> 00:11:39.678
particular bit where they've just gone.
00:11:40.818 --> 00:11:41.778
We needed a training course.
00:11:42.468 --> 00:11:48.318
Um, and I, I feel like at the time, I
didn't really think that way so much.
00:11:48.348 --> 00:11:52.068
I used to, I used to think that like,
there'll be a more even level of
00:11:52.068 --> 00:11:53.778
interest at all bits of the funnel.
00:11:53.778 --> 00:11:55.218
And you're taught that, you know, oh yeah.
00:11:55.248 --> 00:11:57.828
There's the awareness about where
people are just barely aware that
00:11:57.828 --> 00:11:58.938
they've got a problem or something.
00:11:59.388 --> 00:12:00.648
Some industry that's true.
00:12:01.518 --> 00:12:05.238
Something like dollar shave club is
a fantastic example of that, where
00:12:05.298 --> 00:12:07.098
absolutely awareness was there.
00:12:08.028 --> 00:12:12.048
No one knew you could get subscription
raises fate, that there was, there would
00:12:12.048 --> 00:12:16.548
have been very little search volume for
subscription razor service at that time.
00:12:17.298 --> 00:12:22.998
Um, so they needed to get up there
and that awareness bit, whereas,
00:12:23.328 --> 00:12:27.648
uh, and so, you know, uh, you know,
the YouTube stuff and the display
00:12:27.648 --> 00:12:30.978
advertising, I'm sure they would have
done was absolutely what they need it.
00:12:32.208 --> 00:12:35.808
But for that company, it was just
getting people at those extremely
00:12:35.808 --> 00:12:39.018
high level of intent, you know,
they saw training courses.
00:12:39.018 --> 00:12:40.728
And so it's like getting them
when they're searching for
00:12:40.728 --> 00:12:41.778
those sorts of training courses.
00:12:42.258 --> 00:12:42.468
Yeah.
00:12:42.588 --> 00:12:45.558
So yeah, I thought your
mistaken belief grinding.
00:12:46.938 --> 00:12:47.488
Jon: Interesting.
00:12:47.488 --> 00:12:48.018
I thank you.
00:12:48.618 --> 00:12:49.128
Um,
00:12:52.338 --> 00:12:59.628
and, um, So before, so you've told
me where you were hoping for it to
00:12:59.628 --> 00:13:06.918
solve, um, to get you this rich set
of, of B2B keywords for the particular
00:13:07.308 --> 00:13:10.008
businesses that you're working in.
00:13:10.458 --> 00:13:14.358
Um, and, but you indicated
that maybe it didn't help them.
00:13:15.123 --> 00:13:17.043
Do you expect it to help?
00:13:17.733 --> 00:13:24.993
Um, was there anything, um, before you
started using the product that you were
00:13:24.993 --> 00:13:27.093
unsure of about it, or that was unclear?
00:13:30.288 --> 00:13:37.008
Jacob: I think, I mean, there
were a lot of capacitor tools pan,
00:13:37.018 --> 00:13:40.578
so differentiation between some
roughing, other ones, it was khaki.
00:13:40.578 --> 00:13:45.348
And I feel like I answered a lot of
my questions just by doing the trial.
00:13:46.398 --> 00:13:49.338
I think that that, that, that, that
helped me out with the loss of them.
00:13:51.828 --> 00:13:55.608
As far as I can recall, I was,
I felt pretty sure that it was
00:13:55.608 --> 00:13:56.958
like, it was just like mole.
00:13:56.968 --> 00:14:01.698
So we had this understanding my
head there's more SEO, most visible.
00:14:02.448 --> 00:14:10.703
Um, and so I had this kind of
template in my head like, oh, So I
00:14:10.713 --> 00:14:12.003
feel like happens a lot with stopper.
00:14:12.033 --> 00:14:13.803
You just, you just go,
oh, it's this thing.
00:14:14.253 --> 00:14:17.973
So you don't really need that kind
of, if I was mistaken, it would
00:14:17.973 --> 00:14:20.553
have been mistaken to the extent
that it was different from us.
00:14:20.583 --> 00:14:24.243
And as far as I recall, like that
wasn't a lot that was different from
00:14:25.683 --> 00:14:25.893
Jon: yeah.
00:14:27.603 --> 00:14:31.533
But going back, was there anything
about Mazda at the time that you didn't
00:14:31.533 --> 00:14:34.833
like, was there more that were sort
of pushing you away from, from most.
00:14:38.193 --> 00:14:38.523
Jacob: Yeah.
00:14:38.523 --> 00:14:41.133
Like I felt like summer felt
about a keyword database.
00:14:41.823 --> 00:14:49.143
Um, and, um, yeah, that's, I think that's
the main thing I remember possibly.
00:14:49.143 --> 00:14:54.243
I got a sense that there was more,
there were more sort of features
00:14:54.243 --> 00:14:57.123
in SEMrush, but I'm not sure it's
a, quite a long time ago now.
00:14:57.993 --> 00:14:58.293
Right.
00:14:59.493 --> 00:15:06.378
Jon: Um, and you've touched on this
briefly already, but, uh, Before
00:15:06.378 --> 00:15:09.198
you decided to use, um, the break.
00:15:09.198 --> 00:15:14.238
Was there anyone else that you, um,
asked, um, about it or, um, places
00:15:14.238 --> 00:15:16.638
that you look for information about it?
00:15:19.968 --> 00:15:24.288
Jacob: I mean, I was kind of,
I just remember being like,
00:15:24.288 --> 00:15:27.888
roughly aware of a few of them.
00:15:28.188 --> 00:15:30.258
Uh, I was aware of spite, baby.
00:15:31.203 --> 00:15:33.083
You know, my boss at the
time told me about that.
00:15:33.093 --> 00:15:38.793
We used to be subscribed to that,
but again, it's called SpyFu.
00:15:38.853 --> 00:15:42.363
I don't even know if it's still going,
but it's chemo database was just
00:15:42.423 --> 00:15:43.653
nowhere near as good a stem rush.
00:15:43.803 --> 00:15:48.093
Um, and I think a cool thing is I
tried in all of them to do this sort
00:15:48.093 --> 00:15:52.493
of keyword search and SEMrush just came
up way better than the rest of them.
00:15:52.653 --> 00:15:54.483
And that was during the
trial was a big thing.
00:15:55.233 --> 00:15:55.473
Yeah.
00:15:55.473 --> 00:15:57.543
That was during the trial in advance.
00:15:58.233 --> 00:15:59.883
Um,
00:16:03.138 --> 00:16:04.008
You know, it's so hard.
00:16:04.038 --> 00:16:06.948
I'm just, oh, I have this like
awareness of it being around.
00:16:07.698 --> 00:16:11.778
I feel this happens a lot
with, um, a lot of products.
00:16:11.808 --> 00:16:15.648
Like your first, you often don't
remember your first time you see them.
00:16:16.218 --> 00:16:20.058
And then cause it's just
like, oh, it's around.
00:16:20.658 --> 00:16:24.978
It's people are talking about it and
you're barely even clocking at, um,
00:16:26.133 --> 00:16:32.343
Jon: The w where would you have sort of
been hanging out to have discovered it,
00:16:32.373 --> 00:16:37.683
there are like any forums or websites
or podcasts that you would have, uh,
00:16:37.713 --> 00:16:42.163
or maybe the, the today, if, if, um,
you had to come across a new product.
00:16:42.183 --> 00:16:45.063
W where, where might you
first come across it?
00:16:45.873 --> 00:16:48.063
Jacob: Um, yeah, a lot's changed today.
00:16:48.123 --> 00:16:51.213
So like, where, what I do now
is like way different from even
00:16:51.213 --> 00:16:53.133
like a cereal four years ago.
00:16:53.823 --> 00:17:01.443
Um, So I would say since about 2018,
uh, I joined an absolute ton of, uh,
00:17:01.863 --> 00:17:03.333
Facebook groups are actually really good.
00:17:04.323 --> 00:17:07.843
Um, handful of them are really good.
00:17:08.313 --> 00:17:13.863
You normally get decent information than
I have, um, posed questions about, um,
00:17:13.893 --> 00:17:15.563
things like learning patient flower or.
00:17:17.583 --> 00:17:19.803
Um, I think that was the
most recent one yeah.
00:17:19.863 --> 00:17:20.643
Landing page stuff.
00:17:20.673 --> 00:17:25.083
And I was just going to be like, what
are people using for page building?
00:17:25.083 --> 00:17:26.193
Because I knew about Unbounce.
00:17:26.433 --> 00:17:27.813
Was there anything else people knew about?
00:17:27.813 --> 00:17:28.323
So, yeah.
00:17:28.323 --> 00:17:34.503
So, um, uh, so the idea is to get a
recommendation from someone who has
00:17:34.503 --> 00:17:39.303
actively used the tool and who seems
credible, like there's someone who's
00:17:39.303 --> 00:17:42.033
actually, you know, you, you, you have
faith that they, in their ability to
00:17:42.033 --> 00:17:44.193
use this as part of a larger process.
00:17:45.198 --> 00:17:53.778
So, um, you know, if I'm talking to
you, uh, about, uh, something and
00:17:53.778 --> 00:17:56.868
you say this tool is just good, it
just immediately goes like waste
00:17:56.928 --> 00:17:59.088
waste at the top of my consideration.
00:17:59.148 --> 00:17:59.598
Let's yeah.
00:18:00.048 --> 00:18:03.378
So it's trying to find a
recommendation from a peer or
00:18:03.378 --> 00:18:03.768
Jon: better.
00:18:04.578 --> 00:18:06.828
And so you actively look for it right?
00:18:07.038 --> 00:18:12.048
When, when you have a
problem and it is that
00:18:12.048 --> 00:18:12.258
Jacob: right.
00:18:13.818 --> 00:18:14.568
Yeah.
00:18:14.808 --> 00:18:15.198
Yeah.
00:18:15.228 --> 00:18:22.088
So I, um, I normally am able, as long
as I can conceive of that being, uh, uh,
00:18:22.318 --> 00:18:23.868
a kind of a tool, which does the thing.
00:18:24.978 --> 00:18:29.718
So, um, I'm sure that there are
some things which I'm doing some
00:18:29.718 --> 00:18:31.728
problems that I'm having, that I
don't even realize that there's a
00:18:31.728 --> 00:18:32.928
tool which could help me with that.
00:18:33.738 --> 00:18:37.218
But with things like landing page
builders, like a concept in my brain,
00:18:38.178 --> 00:18:45.618
um, But then there are other things where
I'm like less, you know, I'm probably
00:18:45.618 --> 00:18:50.808
just not aware that this is something
which, um, could, uh, could help.
00:18:50.868 --> 00:18:51.138
Yeah.
00:18:51.618 --> 00:18:55.128
So wherever I bought a sense that,
that, that this is, this is a
00:18:55.128 --> 00:18:56.328
category of staying that I want.
00:18:57.168 --> 00:19:02.328
And, um, then I'll ask for opinions.
00:19:02.808 --> 00:19:03.018
And
00:19:03.328 --> 00:19:06.808
Jon: can you name any of the specific
Facebook groups that you've found useful?
00:19:08.268 --> 00:19:13.188
Jacob: Yeah, the, I mean the big one
for me, like huge, uh, just generally
00:19:13.188 --> 00:19:19.428
in my, my career for like the past three
years, the CXL, uh, compassion, but a
00:19:19.428 --> 00:19:21.828
group it's just absolutely enormous.
00:19:21.888 --> 00:19:32.673
Um, loads of the contacts that I've made,
the, um, uh, the recommendations, uh, Uh,
00:19:33.243 --> 00:19:36.663
yeah, that's another, I remember asking
about full my elastics on there as well.
00:19:36.663 --> 00:19:40.533
It's another thing we've got some
recommendations that, um, yeah,
00:19:40.533 --> 00:19:41.823
that's, that's always been a big one.
00:19:41.913 --> 00:19:48.123
Um, I feel like, uh, that there were
some other ones, like the Google tag
00:19:48.123 --> 00:19:51.573
manager one is, is another one, but it's
very specific to help within the tool.
00:19:52.263 --> 00:19:55.773
I'm trying to think of, oh yeah.
00:19:55.773 --> 00:20:05.028
Some interesting . Um, if I'm asking
about tool, you know, if I was asking
00:20:05.028 --> 00:20:08.328
tool agnostic, there's also like
superstar SEO, which is pretty good.
00:20:09.318 --> 00:20:16.998
Um, um, Google ad strategy with Kohl's
Soulard has never in a group ever,
00:20:17.028 --> 00:20:18.888
but like it's decent Google ads group.
00:20:18.918 --> 00:20:19.128
Yeah.
00:20:19.518 --> 00:20:22.548
So, yeah, so I'd say that
was like my, like one tier.
00:20:22.548 --> 00:20:24.978
And then I see above
that in terms of quality.
00:20:26.013 --> 00:20:27.693
Is the private slack groups.
00:20:28.353 --> 00:20:33.603
So, um, let's measure slack,
uh, which is excellent.
00:20:34.353 --> 00:20:35.763
Um, and.
00:20:37.863 --> 00:20:41.883
Uh, there's one or two smaller ones,
which I'm members of, which are just
00:20:41.883 --> 00:20:44.973
like some individual who I know is
like fully scaled and what they do.
00:20:44.973 --> 00:20:48.453
And they have their own
private slack group in on that.
00:20:48.813 --> 00:20:55.353
Um, yeah, but for these slack groups,
you need like the quality of the question
00:20:55.353 --> 00:20:58.893
that you need to ask to get a response
in those groups is extremely IST.
00:20:58.893 --> 00:21:01.563
You need, but you need to
clearly be asking her question.
00:21:02.778 --> 00:21:05.268
That is worth asking
people who know this much.
00:21:05.268 --> 00:21:07.458
So I go there, when I've got
a question where I'd like,
00:21:07.548 --> 00:21:09.198
just, just beat my brains out.
00:21:09.258 --> 00:21:10.458
I can't figure it out.
00:21:11.718 --> 00:21:13.368
I just get pleased, anyone.
00:21:14.748 --> 00:21:16.728
Um, yeah.
00:21:17.178 --> 00:21:23.958
And, um, uh, I would take a recommendation
from inside that extremely seriously.
00:21:24.678 --> 00:21:24.948
Yeah.
00:21:26.088 --> 00:21:30.528
Jon: That'd be great to have that
kind of squirt network around
00:21:30.888 --> 00:21:31.668
Jacob: and built it up.
00:21:32.268 --> 00:21:36.738
I built up really, really
painstakingly any, any opportunity.
00:21:37.128 --> 00:21:41.688
I literally added to one at recently
as a guy who just posted a lot
00:21:41.688 --> 00:21:44.988
on, um, uh, San Mar full styles.
00:21:44.988 --> 00:21:47.418
And he's very, he's clearly very good.
00:21:47.418 --> 00:21:48.768
And I've learned those from his posts.
00:21:49.788 --> 00:21:51.768
And then he just, he just
said, oh, I bought this.
00:21:51.918 --> 00:21:52.518
He mentioned.
00:21:53.343 --> 00:21:56.973
Almost done an offhand about like in his
private flat group, someone mentioned X.
00:21:57.063 --> 00:21:57.303
Yeah.
00:21:57.783 --> 00:22:00.633
I just commented, you know, the
bit in fight club where they're
00:22:00.633 --> 00:22:04.503
waiting outside the door, trying
to get membership to the club.
00:22:05.043 --> 00:22:06.333
I just, that that's me right now.
00:22:06.753 --> 00:22:07.623
Just waiting outside.
00:22:07.863 --> 00:22:08.913
And he gave somebody the invite.
00:22:09.423 --> 00:22:11.913
So, um, yeah.
00:22:12.003 --> 00:22:14.163
Uh, and, um, private,
private mastermind groups.
00:22:14.163 --> 00:22:15.573
Who've got other things like that as well.
00:22:15.573 --> 00:22:18.903
So some really excellent conversion.
00:22:19.683 --> 00:22:23.343
Optimization practitioner and you just
see the sheer quality of what he's
00:22:23.343 --> 00:22:27.183
posting and I've just, you know, it's
just being proactive with these things.
00:22:27.783 --> 00:22:31.113
Um, because as a, as a solo freelancer,
this is the thing that I'm just, I will
00:22:31.113 --> 00:22:32.823
just, I can easily be totally deficient.
00:22:32.823 --> 00:22:35.283
Then I can literally just talk to nobody.
00:22:35.763 --> 00:22:37.923
And I had exactly the same thing
when I was working in house.
00:22:37.953 --> 00:22:40.983
Like you just constantly know
more than everyone in the room
00:22:41.133 --> 00:22:42.153
about like your specialist.
00:22:43.293 --> 00:22:44.343
'cause it's just you.
00:22:44.493 --> 00:22:44.883
Yeah.
00:22:45.153 --> 00:22:47.223
Um, and that's not a good place to be.
00:22:47.293 --> 00:22:49.323
You need to constantly be
around people who have.
00:22:50.433 --> 00:22:52.833
You are, I'm challenging.
00:22:52.833 --> 00:22:55.473
You, you have, and then I think also
the other side, it's really good if
00:22:55.473 --> 00:22:58.863
you've, um, if you're, if you're trying
to impart that knowledge as well.
00:22:59.673 --> 00:23:02.613
Um, that's the biggest side though.
00:23:03.933 --> 00:23:04.263
That's
00:23:05.313 --> 00:23:05.883
Jon: really useful.
00:23:06.123 --> 00:23:07.053
Interesting stuff though.
00:23:07.113 --> 00:23:08.373
I'm conscious of time.
00:23:08.373 --> 00:23:10.293
We're already up to 23 minutes.
00:23:10.383 --> 00:23:10.983
Um, you're right.
00:23:10.983 --> 00:23:11.913
To keep going for a bit.
00:23:11.913 --> 00:23:12.843
I've got a couple more questions.
00:23:16.698 --> 00:23:20.148
So, uh, well, where are we up to?
00:23:20.268 --> 00:23:28.908
Um, was there, um, anyone that
you needed to sort of, uh, have
00:23:28.908 --> 00:23:30.468
weigh in on your decision to buy?
00:23:30.498 --> 00:23:34.338
I think you mentioned this also earlier
because you were working in house at the
00:23:34.338 --> 00:23:39.528
time, and so you, you have a boss that was
going to sign off on the, on the purchase.
00:23:40.038 --> 00:23:41.298
Um, yeah.
00:23:41.628 --> 00:23:44.688
And is that similar now
or how, how do you make.
00:23:50.553 --> 00:23:51.573
Jacob: Uh, so it's interesting.
00:23:51.573 --> 00:23:55.173
So when I work with, so yeah, at the time
it's just, the boss needed the decision
00:23:55.173 --> 00:24:00.153
and he was, um, one of the real strengths
of that company was that if you wanted
00:24:00.153 --> 00:24:06.273
some software, you wouldn't end up in
some just tedious debate about, you
00:24:06.273 --> 00:24:08.373
know, relatively small amounts of money.
00:24:08.403 --> 00:24:09.573
You just get the thing.
00:24:09.693 --> 00:24:09.963
Yeah.
00:24:10.593 --> 00:24:12.213
Um, that's, that's great.
00:24:12.333 --> 00:24:23.448
So, um, Next company I was at, um, I did
get some rough, uh, and I think I, that
00:24:23.448 --> 00:24:27.498
was with like the initial bit of momentum
that I had as a new person coming in.
00:24:27.538 --> 00:24:29.628
I was just like, this is
the tool of my, I need this.
00:24:29.628 --> 00:24:30.438
This is what I use.
00:24:31.878 --> 00:24:35.028
Um, and I think it's, that was fine.
00:24:35.748 --> 00:24:37.638
Um, when I've, I.
00:24:39.378 --> 00:24:45.498
I helped move, uh, an agency I've done
some work with, to summarize as well.
00:24:46.248 --> 00:24:54.408
And again, they were using muzzle ready
and I was really like up for just being
00:24:54.408 --> 00:24:57.438
like, oh yeah, no, I just use most,
if I can do the stuff I do at SEMrush
00:24:57.438 --> 00:25:01.068
and most and fantastic, but I just
couldn't quite do it in the same way.
00:25:01.068 --> 00:25:03.288
And workflow and process becomes a big.
00:25:04.188 --> 00:25:06.978
So a lot of the time, if I'm working
with clients to say like, look,
00:25:07.038 --> 00:25:09.198
here's the tool, but here's also
the workflow and process behind it.
00:25:10.128 --> 00:25:13.848
And with, with SEMrush, you can fit
it into work flows and processes.
00:25:14.628 --> 00:25:22.428
Um, and yeah, and also a, um, it
works it's really, really good
00:25:22.428 --> 00:25:28.878
for, um, moderately successful and
above small and medium businesses.
00:25:29.418 --> 00:25:33.258
I think once you start getting
increasingly complex website,
00:25:34.083 --> 00:25:39.903
And you start getting, um,
the investment in SEO becomes
00:25:39.903 --> 00:25:43.833
progressively more, um, worthwhile.
00:25:44.733 --> 00:25:46.623
Then you need to start
expanding your toolkit.
00:25:46.623 --> 00:25:52.083
So a lot of people use pH rights, um,
because it's just better, but things
00:25:52.083 --> 00:25:55.593
like link-building air trust just
acknowledged as being a better tool.
00:25:56.283 --> 00:25:59.073
Um, but San Francisco very
good at doing lots of.
00:25:59.988 --> 00:26:02.298
So it's quite a, it's
slightly easiest, Alex.
00:26:02.298 --> 00:26:03.588
It's like, can we just get this?
00:26:03.588 --> 00:26:07.818
And it'll cover lots of bases rather
than let's get this kind of ecosystem
00:26:08.418 --> 00:26:11.718
of, you know, it's funny how some
are actually does do lots of things.
00:26:12.038 --> 00:26:15.798
And if you were to go back 10 years,
there used to be more like separate,
00:26:16.218 --> 00:26:17.508
separate tools doing these things.
00:26:17.508 --> 00:26:18.948
And some are just kind of bring us
00:26:18.948 --> 00:26:22.578
Jon: into, you mentioned H refs,
would that be something that
00:26:22.578 --> 00:26:24.618
you use instead of SEMrush?
00:26:25.128 --> 00:26:25.398
Sorry.
00:26:26.928 --> 00:26:28.398
Jacob: Um, you know, I never used.
00:26:29.778 --> 00:26:30.168
Myself.
00:26:30.168 --> 00:26:31.758
I just know that loads
of people do use that.
00:26:31.968 --> 00:26:38.448
And I know that if, uh, um, if I
was in a position where I was in
00:26:38.448 --> 00:26:45.948
any way responsible for extensive
link-building then, um, I would
00:26:45.948 --> 00:26:47.058
definitely at least try it.
00:26:47.448 --> 00:26:47.718
Right.
00:26:48.078 --> 00:26:50.148
Um, I know it does other things as well.
00:26:51.458 --> 00:26:56.673
Um, One of the things hair,
as well as that light.
00:26:56.673 --> 00:26:59.493
Let's just that you've got
to look at like where your
00:26:59.493 --> 00:27:00.933
bottlenecks are and your processes.
00:27:01.023 --> 00:27:08.733
And, um, so often, like there are multiple
tools that will do things well enough
00:27:09.603 --> 00:27:11.283
for the level that you can execute.
00:27:13.863 --> 00:27:17.373
You know, in most small medium-sized
businesses, there's just a limit to how
00:27:17.373 --> 00:27:20.073
well they can execute any ex STO work.
00:27:20.493 --> 00:27:25.503
And so the amount of extra benefit that
you'd get from having lots of tools
00:27:26.343 --> 00:27:27.903
just doesn't translate into actual.
00:27:29.073 --> 00:27:30.033
Real changes.
00:27:30.213 --> 00:27:32.913
It's just, oh, I've got lots of
fancy tools, but I've got like this
00:27:32.913 --> 00:27:36.483
really limited amount of actual work
practical changes and what I can do.
00:27:37.083 --> 00:27:38.523
And so I felt like SEMrush is quite good.
00:27:39.063 --> 00:27:40.083
I could level.
00:27:40.983 --> 00:27:41.133
Yeah.
00:27:41.193 --> 00:27:42.093
Cause you can just go, right.
00:27:42.123 --> 00:27:42.513
Okay.
00:27:42.993 --> 00:27:44.463
This covers covers my basis.
00:27:44.463 --> 00:27:46.953
Anything that I would want to do, this
will give me the adequate support for it.
00:27:48.123 --> 00:27:48.813
Jon: Makes sense.
00:27:49.623 --> 00:27:56.218
Um, and so if, uh, If SEMrush
disappeared, um, tomorrow and you
00:27:56.218 --> 00:28:01.438
weren't able to use it, what would
those unit you comfortable with the
00:28:01.438 --> 00:28:02.938
tools that would fill the gap that,
00:28:05.458 --> 00:28:08.818
Jacob: um, I think the main thing, yes.
00:28:08.878 --> 00:28:10.138
I think I could definitely do.
00:28:10.168 --> 00:28:13.058
Like, there's nothing that like, if
they do, which I don't think I, I
00:28:13.078 --> 00:28:16.608
could do in some other way, there are
all the keyword research tools out.
00:28:17.463 --> 00:28:26.103
Um, um, I think I would just
have to relearn some of my
00:28:26.103 --> 00:28:28.383
privacy practices or alter them.
00:28:28.953 --> 00:28:33.813
So, um, like a core part of when I
do technical audits, of course part
00:28:33.813 --> 00:28:39.363
is just going through the summary
report first, um, and pulling out
00:28:39.363 --> 00:28:40.683
what looks relevant from that.
00:28:41.943 --> 00:28:43.983
And it's a couple of, so
many things so quickly.
00:28:44.643 --> 00:28:49.893
Um, I would have to look at like,
okay, how do I do this manually in
00:28:49.893 --> 00:28:55.623
screaming frog, or how do I am, you
know, what other tools do the same thing?
00:28:56.553 --> 00:28:58.833
Um, yeah.
00:29:01.593 --> 00:29:02.853
Jon: And to understand that process.
00:29:02.853 --> 00:29:08.163
So SEMrush will give you, um,
is that a list of keywords or
00:29:08.223 --> 00:29:09.963
issues at that at that point?
00:29:11.133 --> 00:29:11.663
Jacob: Yeah.
00:29:11.923 --> 00:29:14.283
So, um, you've got like a Crow.
00:29:14.313 --> 00:29:16.233
What I call it, like the cruel report.
00:29:16.323 --> 00:29:22.383
So basically they, um, it's like a full
site audit and that's the technical stuff.
00:29:22.413 --> 00:29:28.083
Like how your site is set up,
um, things like, you know, your
00:29:28.113 --> 00:29:29.973
method descriptions or your.
00:29:31.413 --> 00:29:33.663
EMA or your internal
linking and stuff like that.
00:29:35.583 --> 00:29:42.693
So Ross just let you run a report
on all of those issues at once.
00:29:43.623 --> 00:29:49.043
And then, um, from that report, then I go
through that and I, I, you know, I look
00:29:49.103 --> 00:29:51.783
at picture it manually and I go, okay,
here's an issue that needs a bit more.
00:29:52.113 --> 00:29:53.283
So there's an issue
which needs a bit more.
00:29:54.063 --> 00:29:55.053
Um, probing that.
00:29:55.053 --> 00:29:58.743
Am I going to screaming, frog and
then an investigator a bit more
00:29:58.743 --> 00:30:00.153
or depending on what the issue is?
00:30:01.443 --> 00:30:05.853
Um, so, but it forms my core thing.
00:30:05.883 --> 00:30:09.483
It's just gone and it's gone all
the checking it's it's it's the,
00:30:09.483 --> 00:30:15.033
the, it, it C it means that I won't
have had to have done what would
00:30:15.063 --> 00:30:18.843
literally take dozens of hours to do.
00:30:19.623 --> 00:30:21.753
Depending on the site, it
could be crazy amounts of time.
00:30:22.713 --> 00:30:24.123
Um, it's just dumb.
00:30:25.023 --> 00:30:30.033
Um, and you know, other, other
other sites would do this,
00:30:30.093 --> 00:30:31.893
but I would need to get that.
00:30:31.953 --> 00:30:35.373
It's just that while I was doing research,
right, I've got this report and this
00:30:35.373 --> 00:30:36.843
provides like a nice backbone for me.
00:30:37.533 --> 00:30:40.413
Um, Um,
00:30:41.283 --> 00:30:41.553
Jon: yeah.
00:30:42.213 --> 00:30:42.663
All right.
00:30:43.263 --> 00:30:46.893
That's been super insightful.
00:30:47.073 --> 00:30:53.073
Um, I've learned loads, having not used
these tools much my myself, but is there
00:30:53.133 --> 00:30:57.903
anything else you think I should know
about your experience of using SEMrush?
00:30:59.433 --> 00:31:02.193
Jacob: I think it's, I think
it's, um, it's your experience?
00:31:02.223 --> 00:31:05.883
It's going from like user
friendliness has gone from being.
00:31:07.158 --> 00:31:09.738
Really bad to mediocre.
00:31:11.148 --> 00:31:20.088
Um, he used to be so, um, uh, it
was so hard to find what you wanted.
00:31:20.778 --> 00:31:22.038
It's still not easy.
00:31:22.908 --> 00:31:26.388
Um, there are so many options.
00:31:26.838 --> 00:31:30.258
There are so, so, so, so many options
and it, it definitely feels like.
00:31:31.263 --> 00:31:34.083
Uh, an agglomeration of
lots of different tools.
00:31:35.073 --> 00:31:40.743
Um, and that's taken precedence over
its user-friendliness as a tool.
00:31:41.293 --> 00:31:44.723
You definitely don't get it.
00:31:44.723 --> 00:31:48.933
It's definitely against that
kind of, oh, I'm new in the tool.
00:31:49.113 --> 00:31:51.603
Let's cut down the number of
decisions that I have to make so that
00:31:51.603 --> 00:31:53.283
I get in and I get stuff using it.
00:31:53.283 --> 00:31:54.573
Start getting value immediately.
00:31:54.573 --> 00:31:57.873
Like that is not a sudden rush.
00:31:57.873 --> 00:32:00.033
It's like, here are so many
things that you can do.
00:32:01.893 --> 00:32:05.673
You figure out a way of using them and you
figure out your own workflows and stuff.
00:32:05.703 --> 00:32:10.893
Like it's, it's something that I've
really had to learn to work with
00:32:11.693 --> 00:32:13.173
to come up with what flows around.
00:32:13.323 --> 00:32:13.593
Jon: Yep.
00:32:15.123 --> 00:32:15.753
Struggle.
00:32:16.593 --> 00:32:17.883
Jacob: Um, yeah.
00:32:19.488 --> 00:32:23.868
Um, and I feel like that's, that's
one of the major gaps with it, with
00:32:23.868 --> 00:32:31.728
a torch there's so many things is
actually having strong workflows because
00:32:31.748 --> 00:32:35.868
it's so easy just to get like all of
these, like Google analytics, right?
00:32:35.928 --> 00:32:41.388
Like a, you have this preponderance
of reports I spring as it just
00:32:41.388 --> 00:32:42.888
to kind of dive in and get lost.
00:32:43.818 --> 00:32:47.588
Um, and so the, the,
the really cool thing.
00:32:48.933 --> 00:32:54.693
SEMrush is knowing when to use what
tools at what stage and what to do
00:32:54.693 --> 00:32:57.013
with the outputs of them and happy.
00:32:57.013 --> 00:33:05.403
You know, it's very, um, it's a very kind
of multi-purpose tool, but it's certainly
00:33:05.403 --> 00:33:10.533
not the kind of thing where you're going
to get the maximum value out of it easily.
00:33:11.718 --> 00:33:14.428
Um, yeah.
00:33:16.098 --> 00:33:18.618
Jon: If you had a magic wand and
you could change one thing about
00:33:18.618 --> 00:33:20.568
SEMrush, what would it, would it be?
00:33:22.428 --> 00:33:30.438
Jacob: Um, I think that I would, Hmm.
00:33:32.688 --> 00:33:34.308
I feel like it's a more, always more of a.
00:33:36.798 --> 00:33:44.478
Conceptual thing where like, it could be
nice if it had some way of guiding people
00:33:44.478 --> 00:33:50.028
through a particular process, rather
than like giving you loads of reports.
00:33:50.628 --> 00:33:55.758
I'm working with people who sometimes,
um, when a client I'm working with gets
00:33:55.758 --> 00:34:02.523
SEMrush, you know, Uh, I often work
with people, um, who are, you know,
00:34:02.523 --> 00:34:04.953
they're not like asking your specialist
or they're early in their career.
00:34:04.953 --> 00:34:08.073
I was talking to someone literally
this morning talking through some
00:34:08.073 --> 00:34:10.983
Russian and different things that
he, that he could be doing in it.
00:34:11.763 --> 00:34:20.883
And, um, I feel like if there was a
way of organizing it so that you could
00:34:20.883 --> 00:34:22.083
just go, what are you trying to do?
00:34:23.508 --> 00:34:27.468
And then, you know, I'm trying to
find technical issues on my site.
00:34:27.498 --> 00:34:27.738
All right.
00:34:27.738 --> 00:34:28.038
Click.
00:34:28.038 --> 00:34:30.798
And then here's like this
checklist checklist do this.
00:34:31.758 --> 00:34:33.768
I feel like there's some, I
like walking people through
00:34:33.768 --> 00:34:36.048
the processes through SEMrush.
00:34:36.198 --> 00:34:44.028
I feel like it could be more,
more useful for newbies, but
00:34:44.028 --> 00:34:45.618
it's, you know, it's, it's tricky.
00:34:45.618 --> 00:34:46.338
I'm, I'm calling.
00:34:47.808 --> 00:34:52.878
All of how onboarding and making
tools, user friendly is like its
00:34:52.878 --> 00:34:55.698
own its own discipline, same thing.
00:34:56.628 --> 00:35:03.228
Um, and I I'm, I'm sure
that whoever's worked on it.
00:35:03.228 --> 00:35:04.728
It's like really organized over.
00:35:05.778 --> 00:35:07.548
But I just, I generally get the sense.
00:35:07.548 --> 00:35:09.408
It's just very easy to
get lost in the report.
00:35:10.248 --> 00:35:13.548
And sometimes it'd be nicer to have
some sense of where this fits into
00:35:13.548 --> 00:35:17.208
a broader process, particularly for
people who aren't familiar with that
00:35:18.498 --> 00:35:22.368
Jon: that's really very useful to hear.
00:35:22.428 --> 00:35:22.968
Thank you.
00:35:23.208 --> 00:35:28.158
Um, so that's the, uh,
end of my questions.
00:35:28.488 --> 00:35:32.358
Thank you again for taking the
time to share that experience.
00:35:33.183 --> 00:35:39.333
Um, is there anything, what else do you
think I should talk to if I was exploring
00:35:39.393 --> 00:35:45.303
more about SEMrush, um, who else would
be good people to ask where if you're
00:35:45.303 --> 00:35:48.693
not comfortable saying their name on
the, on the show, that's, that's fine.
00:35:49.083 --> 00:35:54.723
Um, but are there other, other people
that use, uh, use it a lot that you
00:35:54.723 --> 00:35:56.673
know, that you could introduce me?
00:35:58.848 --> 00:36:03.558
Jacob: Um, there's uh, Ooh, Hmm.
00:36:04.308 --> 00:36:08.748
There, uh, there are some people
who could potentially talk to him.
00:36:09.258 --> 00:36:14.928
Um, the reason I hesitate is because
of like, um, let us super busy.
00:36:15.228 --> 00:36:15.408
Yeah.
00:36:15.428 --> 00:36:21.118
So it, uh, it, I mean, you could,
you could certainly try, um, I would.
00:36:21.948 --> 00:36:23.888
If it's interesting, you
asked me like where, where I
00:36:23.898 --> 00:36:25.488
find information about that.
00:36:25.518 --> 00:36:27.378
Like someone like stupid stuff, SEO.
00:36:27.588 --> 00:36:28.848
I do this all the time.
00:36:29.268 --> 00:36:34.428
When I'm researching stuff for clients, I
will just find the niche Facebook group.
00:36:34.548 --> 00:36:34.788
Yeah.
00:36:35.538 --> 00:36:40.158
That I remember of that that's relevant
to whatever thing I'm working on.
00:36:41.238 --> 00:36:41.708
And then I.
00:36:43.008 --> 00:36:44.988
Whatever question I want to ask.
00:36:44.988 --> 00:36:46.368
I'll just stay, you know?
00:36:47.868 --> 00:36:48.198
Yeah.
00:36:48.228 --> 00:36:52.878
Like, like for example, if I'm trying to
find out, um, I have to find out, uh, I
00:36:52.878 --> 00:36:58.068
was writing some ads that were in, uh,
fiction writers and I wanted to get a
00:36:58.068 --> 00:36:59.678
sense of like, what's what's success.
00:36:59.688 --> 00:37:04.068
What, what, in terms of like
the, you know, what, what
00:37:04.068 --> 00:37:05.358
can I put into this coffee?
00:37:05.358 --> 00:37:06.498
That's going to make
it compelling to them.
00:37:06.498 --> 00:37:08.358
So I just asked them, like, what
does success mean to you as a.
00:37:09.498 --> 00:37:10.338
What does it picture it?
00:37:10.608 --> 00:37:12.318
What does, what does the
picture of success look like?
00:37:12.318 --> 00:37:15.558
You, I gave you only one of these
ideas and it's like, okay, brilliant.
00:37:16.668 --> 00:37:17.598
I can try these in ads.
00:37:17.898 --> 00:37:18.288
Right.
00:37:18.738 --> 00:37:23.418
Um, uh, so yeah, superstar,
Theo would be a pretty good one.
00:37:23.568 --> 00:37:23.838
Yeah.
00:37:24.138 --> 00:37:29.748
Um, there was some are styles, which
would obviously be a biased sample.
00:37:30.198 --> 00:37:33.408
Um, but then you've got,
um, guests you've star SEO.
00:37:33.528 --> 00:37:34.338
You'd get a ton of recent.
00:37:35.193 --> 00:37:35.523
Got it.
00:37:36.633 --> 00:37:37.113
Jon: Thank you.
00:37:37.923 --> 00:37:38.343
All right.
00:37:38.463 --> 00:37:42.423
Um, and, uh, yeah, that's really good.
00:37:42.423 --> 00:37:45.003
I mean, we've probably started to get
a picture of some of the work that you
00:37:45.003 --> 00:37:50.703
do, but can you tell me what, what,
uh, what you do if there's a way for
00:37:50.703 --> 00:37:54.353
people that are listening to work with
you, um, where we can find out more.
00:37:56.673 --> 00:37:56.943
Jacob: Yeah.
00:37:56.943 --> 00:38:01.713
So, um, I work with, um,
like a variety of businesses.
00:38:01.743 --> 00:38:06.183
It's been this really, really wide span
of businesses, um, particularly with
00:38:06.183 --> 00:38:12.483
like, um, stat and professional services,
but actually, um, brought it out a lot.
00:38:12.753 --> 00:38:15.453
Um, just multipurpose thing.
00:38:16.263 --> 00:38:19.563
And what I was hearing is, you know,
if, if you've got the sense of, oh,
00:38:19.563 --> 00:38:22.473
we could reach more people or, oh,
our website could convert more people.
00:38:23.133 --> 00:38:27.738
Um, Then, if he comes to me,
then I can help you figure out
00:38:27.738 --> 00:38:28.908
where these opportunities lie.
00:38:29.478 --> 00:38:38.028
Um, I think, um, one of the major
benefits of having someone who's
00:38:38.028 --> 00:38:42.408
external to your business have a look
at it is I can, you know, I can get
00:38:42.408 --> 00:38:45.168
the sense of like that bit where it's
talking about like the awareness.
00:38:46.548 --> 00:38:49.728
Uh, and why, like you have these
different kinds of areas, which
00:38:49.728 --> 00:38:51.108
are like particular target places.
00:38:51.708 --> 00:38:55.098
Um, because I do your SEO and do
a conversion rate optimization.
00:38:55.098 --> 00:38:58.338
I'm very good at looking at like,
okay, maybe you want to create more
00:38:58.338 --> 00:39:03.408
content here, or maybe you want
to, um, improve this landing page.
00:39:03.408 --> 00:39:05.928
Or maybe you, you know, this
bit is conceptually wrong.
00:39:06.558 --> 00:39:08.958
It's just about finding
places where you could grow.
00:39:09.693 --> 00:39:14.403
And improve, identifying them
coming up with a plan to, to,
00:39:14.403 --> 00:39:16.233
to, to, to grow your business
00:39:17.733 --> 00:39:18.213
Jon: excellence.
00:39:18.333 --> 00:39:19.713
Where on the web, can we find that,
00:39:20.523 --> 00:39:23.403
Jacob: uh, it's funnel
marketing.com and follow us?
00:39:23.433 --> 00:39:29.193
Actually, my name that's F U
double N E double L marketing.com.
00:39:29.313 --> 00:39:36.843
So it's, um, I think it's got an acronym
for your work, reflect your, um, name.
00:39:38.358 --> 00:39:43.008
So, yeah, I was recently told by a
business owner that my site is very
00:39:43.008 --> 00:39:46.128
easy to understand, but there's a state.
00:39:46.158 --> 00:39:48.678
So if you go there, hopefully you'll
get the answers that you need.
00:39:50.568 --> 00:39:52.008
Jon: I would say the same.
00:39:52.048 --> 00:39:52.698
It is.
00:39:52.968 --> 00:39:53.418
It's great.
00:39:53.418 --> 00:39:55.038
But you know, I'm very
fortunate to have worked with.
00:39:55.878 --> 00:40:00.438
Both all the way, way back, um, when
you had that, uh, in-house role.
00:40:00.558 --> 00:40:04.848
And, um, I was, you know, I
was impressed, uh, then, um,
00:40:04.938 --> 00:40:06.348
about the quality of your work.
00:40:06.408 --> 00:40:11.028
And, um, I've been very, uh, glad
to be able to hire a few times, um,
00:40:11.058 --> 00:40:13.218
to work with a couple of different
clients that I've worked with.
00:40:13.608 --> 00:40:19.038
Um, and I can, uh, yeah, I will keep
hiring you because I'm, we're actually
00:40:19.038 --> 00:40:21.228
about to have a conversation about
one client that we're working with
00:40:21.228 --> 00:40:27.643
after, after this interview, um, Uh,
because yet Jacob is someone that, that
00:40:27.643 --> 00:40:29.773
knows us, knows his stuff on, on this.
00:40:29.803 --> 00:40:33.853
I'm quite a generalist and I
really need an expert on SEO.
00:40:33.943 --> 00:40:37.363
Um, and I'm in conversion
rate optimization.
00:40:37.363 --> 00:40:41.173
Jacob's the person that like go
to, um, so, uh, yeah, check, check
00:40:41.173 --> 00:40:43.393
out his website, funnel marketing.
00:40:45.063 --> 00:40:47.983
, so my last leading question, um, we.
00:40:48.873 --> 00:40:52.713
Can you, um, and they may be a piece of
software that you've already mentioned,
00:40:52.773 --> 00:40:57.483
um, earlier, but are there three pieces
of software, um, maybe relate to this
00:40:57.483 --> 00:41:00.843
conversation or just generally that you've
used recently or bought recently that
00:41:00.843 --> 00:41:02.583
you would recommend people check out?
00:41:04.443 --> 00:41:09.633
Jacob: Um, I am going to be
extremely generic on this.
00:41:10.623 --> 00:41:16.173
I think that one is a studio.
00:41:16.353 --> 00:41:17.733
Obviously people have had.
00:41:19.353 --> 00:41:22.743
But the amount of clients I
see who do their reporting
00:41:22.743 --> 00:41:24.123
right out of Google analytics.
00:41:24.633 --> 00:41:26.973
So high, you need to get it.
00:41:27.273 --> 00:41:31.443
You need to get it into Google data studio
because analytics is not a reporting tool.
00:41:31.473 --> 00:41:32.643
It's a data store.
00:41:32.733 --> 00:41:34.683
Analytics is not a reporting tool.
00:41:35.013 --> 00:41:36.123
It's just a data store.
00:41:36.183 --> 00:41:40.083
It was designed with
your reporting in mind.
00:41:40.503 --> 00:41:42.303
That's why they crazy Google data studio.
00:41:43.053 --> 00:41:45.183
If you use Google
analytics for your reports.
00:41:46.143 --> 00:41:48.783
You're costing yourself time and
you're not getting your information
00:41:48.783 --> 00:41:49.863
across as well as you can.
00:41:50.103 --> 00:41:54.333
Google data studio is free and it
takes, you can learn how to use it
00:41:54.423 --> 00:41:56.733
well enough to like create a dashboard.
00:41:56.763 --> 00:41:58.413
You can learn it in a day.
00:41:59.793 --> 00:42:03.633
So there's really, really, really,
really no excuse not to use data
00:42:03.633 --> 00:42:05.043
studio now, like you should.
00:42:05.793 --> 00:42:08.073
Um, but that's my harangue.
00:42:08.703 --> 00:42:11.013
Uh, that's the first part.
00:42:11.883 --> 00:42:19.963
Um, I think, um, I'm going to, again,
this is another one, which I think is
00:42:19.963 --> 00:42:27.073
like widely known, uh, lots of people use
Hotjar, but I think, uh, lots of people
00:42:27.073 --> 00:42:31.933
don't get enough, uh, value as they could
out of the surveys, functionality of that.
00:42:32.503 --> 00:42:37.723
Just asking if you don't have any surveys
to up on your site, then if you're an
00:42:37.783 --> 00:42:41.323
e-commerce site, then set up a question,
which just does both one thing that's
00:42:41.323 --> 00:42:42.613
holding you back from making a purchase.
00:42:43.818 --> 00:42:44.028
Yeah.
00:42:44.148 --> 00:42:51.108
If, um, you've got a lead gen site
as a question, what's one thing that
00:42:51.318 --> 00:42:52.668
almost stopped me getting in touch.
00:42:54.168 --> 00:43:01.098
Um, if you've got, uh, like, uh, as such,
but, and you've just, just after someone
00:43:01.098 --> 00:43:04.458
purchased, just ask, but what's one thing
that almost prevented you from buying
00:43:04.458 --> 00:43:08.718
today and the amount of feedback you get.
00:43:08.928 --> 00:43:10.938
And also often the consistency of that.
00:43:12.093 --> 00:43:14.673
Um, it's storytelling it's
supposed so, so valuable.
00:43:15.663 --> 00:43:21.063
Um, so yeah, Hotjar, uh, is it's still
remains like, um, the easiest one
00:43:21.063 --> 00:43:25.713
stop shop for this sort of thing, even
though they've increased their prices.
00:43:26.373 --> 00:43:35.343
Um, and for a piece of software,
I think it's particularly useful.
00:43:37.338 --> 00:43:42.018
I think another one, uh, particularly
in GDPR times, uh, is cookie box.
00:43:42.828 --> 00:43:46.848
Um, it's just a very easy way.
00:43:46.878 --> 00:43:50.778
So if you pass cookie bot with Google
tag manager, then all of the stuff
00:43:50.808 --> 00:43:54.018
where people ended up getting in,
in like tying themselves in knots,
00:43:54.048 --> 00:43:57.078
over GDPR and permissions and stuff,
it just integrates photography.
00:43:58.773 --> 00:44:04.623
It's not expensive and it's
way better than trying to
00:44:04.623 --> 00:44:06.243
build your own thing in house.
00:44:06.393 --> 00:44:10.473
Just like, I think when GDPR first
came out, people just instinctively
00:44:10.473 --> 00:44:13.563
went to the web developers
to try and create something.
00:44:13.743 --> 00:44:16.473
And you can give better to
that in just install this thing
00:44:16.773 --> 00:44:17.853
integrates the tag manager.
00:44:17.853 --> 00:44:22.383
So it means that the things that
you're using will be compliant.
00:44:23.073 --> 00:44:26.133
Um, Yeah, those
00:44:26.133 --> 00:44:26.883
Jon: would be my three.
00:44:27.453 --> 00:44:27.753
Perfect.
00:44:28.143 --> 00:44:29.103
Thank you very much, Jacob.
00:44:31.293 --> 00:44:33.093
Again, it's been brilliant to have you on.
00:44:33.333 --> 00:44:39.213
Um, and, uh, yeah, I was looking forward
to our next conversation about a specific,
00:44:39.363 --> 00:44:41.253
um, plant that we're both working with.
00:44:42.123 --> 00:44:44.403
Um, but yeah, take a
00:44:45.333 --> 00:44:45.903
Jacob: code test.
00:44:48.026 --> 00:44:51.716
Jon: That was hopefully a useful
example of a customer interview.
00:44:52.856 --> 00:44:56.936
You can find notes from this episode,
including links to all the products
00:44:56.936 --> 00:44:59.486
mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.
00:45:00.416 --> 00:45:03.926
If you know anyone who might benefit
from hearing this perspective,
00:45:04.256 --> 00:45:05.306
please share the episode.
00:45:07.151 --> 00:45:07.991
And word of caution.
00:45:08.591 --> 00:45:11.591
This interview is a snapshot of
just one person's perspective
00:45:11.861 --> 00:45:13.421
in an artificial situation.
00:45:14.081 --> 00:45:17.261
You should be very careful about
drawing any conclusions about
00:45:17.261 --> 00:45:21.101
the guest people like them or the
product from this single data point.
00:45:22.331 --> 00:45:25.841
Customer interviews are most valuable
when you see parallels across, many
00:45:25.841 --> 00:45:28.091
of them will be in a specific context.
00:45:28.961 --> 00:45:31.841
I'd suggest a minimum of
five and ideally 12 to 15.
00:45:32.951 --> 00:45:36.911
I recommend the book, deploy
empathy by Michelle Hanson for a
00:45:36.911 --> 00:45:38.681
practical guide on how to do it.
00:45:38.711 --> 00:45:42.310
Well, if you'd like to join
me as a guest on a future
00:45:42.310 --> 00:45:44.080
episode, please send me a note.
00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:46.090
I'm jumped on Twitter.
00:45:46.390 --> 00:45:47.560
That's J O T.
00:45:47.890 --> 00:45:49.300
My DMS are open.
00:45:50.590 --> 00:45:54.400
You can also use the form at
empathy, deployed.com or email.
00:45:54.430 --> 00:45:56.020
Hello at empathy deployed.
00:45:57.865 --> 00:46:01.165
Please include the names and
addresses of free software products
00:46:01.585 --> 00:46:03.895
you use regularly and or pay for.
