Speaker 1:
0:08
[inaudible] . Hello
Speaker 2:
0:08
and welcome to this as mean a podcast on inclusion. Today is part two of our conversation from last week about the five levels of inclusion. Head on over to digital scribbler.com for the original article on the five levels of inclusion to understand the whole philosophy behind what we're discussing today. We'll also link it in the description below. On another note, please take them over to leave a five star rating and write us a glowing review. You will really help our show in getting our message of inclusion out there for a larger audience, but for now, let's pick up on Russ, Greg , and Jackson's conversation on implementing the five levels of inclusion. All right , we're going to go into our second part or part two of how to implement the five levels
Speaker 3:
0:46
of inclusion. We spent a lot of time in the first section, just really an hopefully if you made it to the end of that setting, the framing, the discussion around why it's so important and why it means so much to all of us, but we're going to tackle the five levels of inclusion. And of course we got Jackson here and Greg and they're going to just kind of , um , approach this from a, here's what we think about the levels of inclusion, how they work, how they fit, if they fit. So I think Jackson's going to get us started. Yeah. All right , let's get going. I'll give you my thoughts about the five. Um, first one we talked about was community. Um , that's talking about social inclusion. Um, my thoughts on that one, it's , uh , briefly is , um, is almost if you yourself want to be part of a social inclusion, it's you putting yourself , um, or you helping other being part of a community. Um, that's , that's not as , um, it's not, it might not be as privileged. I might not be as that or that might need more help. But social inclusion is either a community , um, that you go into to help or a community that , uh , you bring along with you to be included. Like we were talking about earlier in section one with , um, including , uh, children with special needs . We might've been talking about this before the first podcast. I can't remember. Part one, I'm talking about bringing children with a special needs into a classroom full of children with typical needs is that's , that's the first stage. That's that sort of community. Um, that's, that's what social inclusion is or programs like soccer's that's social inclusion. Um, uh , another stage , uh , was, which is what I was talking about even more in , in part one, it was , uh , emotional inclusion and that for me is really when I was talking about with my story with, with the, with the other child that I was working with , um, uh, when we were singing songs together. That's that for me is that's that emotional inclusion where it goes deeper than just being a part of a community. It's putting yourself in someone else's shoes. I have a question. What do you think this is Nathan? The producer anyway, the new voice on the microphone. But what do you , when you look at the fellows of inclusion, when I read it, I thought there's one that was specifically for me with a little too daunting or a little like, oh that's a tough one. That's a tough one. Engage with or to like actually get myself to actually respond and want to do something about it. Take Action on. And so for you, when you read the , any of those stand out to you of like, Ooh , this one's a little too little too daunting, right? Cause I think it's, I think even when we talked about in your first story and the, in the, in the first segment about the Barnes and noble story, like there it's, it's, it can be hard enough for an individual to emotionally include somebody. Yes. And to emotionally engage somebody with special needs. Yes. Um, I can share for myself what I thought was the most daunting I think. What's contemplation and cause specifically cause that word purpose and the definition of contemplation. Cause it says contemplation and spiritual inclusion in the pursuit of meaning and purpose. I think it's hard to give somebody purpose. I find it hard to give somebody her purpose because I think that that is one of the hardest things for me to even always know about myself and to identify for myself , um, is okay, what is my purpose? And I have a hard time even wrestling with that as an individual. But then , um, how do I even give that to somebody else's , specifically somebody who's coming into the world or are fighting through a lot of different disadvantages or different kinds of things already going against them. You know what I mean? Yeah . I was curious for you like Jackson, like what, what is the thing that you, when you look at that like, Ooh , that's a little daunting? Uh, when I look at them , it's , um, intellectual inclusion. I think for me , um, I'm just, I'm a very emotional being, so it's easy for me to feel strongly about things, but as far as I'm actually be a getting, getting other people or putting myself out there ,
Speaker 4:
4:30
there , uh , to know about different communities. I think that one, that one daunts me cause there's just so much that I don't know. So what we're talking about then is we're talking about two things. You started us off really great Jackson talking about the fact that you almost put them in steps. And I guess probably I'd never thought about that when I was writing. I didn't think about that. But you basically said, look, the first step is the community, right? So social, and you said the second step is the emotional, and then you just said that the challenge for you is the third step. And did I really, did I say third step? Well the third step is intellectual. Oh, okay. Yeah , yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah. So that, that you, you, you just mentioned you did you do the first to hit the third one. That's the hard one. And I think what people need to understand is we're not saying is easy, right? No, no , definitely. I think that's what words come out. It's not easy. Right, right. Greg? I mean it's, it's a challenge. It's
Speaker 5:
5:21
w when I was thinking about these levels, I , it's cool because I think about why when we started east sports with the soccer , um, I , I just think how we were just thinking, let's create this community of kids with special needs and typical kids and coaches and , and let's just, let's get them together to be able to play sports together. So it was just the community thing. I wasn't thinking beyond that, but I, I, it's funny, I , there's a story, I'm an I , there's one individual I can think of who's gone through all these stages. I mean, he started day one with special needs and you know, I won't say his name. Well, his name is Larry. I won't give you more than that. But he started, it was just a kid out there with some needs and are getting help in the program. Um, but because of the connection, he made the relationships not only on the field and with the coaches, but those friendships that carried into his high school years and off the field that later he became a coach himself and he was coaching other kids with special needs. And now he's gone on to college or he's, you know, an adult now as a young adult, he comes back and he helps train. He comes to the trainings. So he has gone from community connections to the contribution of coaching and now I look at contemplation. He comes back and he trains coaches how to coach and so he's really run the gamut. He's gone through the steps. He's, he's really achieved when we think about all these levels. And I never, you know, it's funny when we, when we started with this, we were trying to try to build something with inclusion, but we didn't think about these levels. But you can, I can look at that example and go, this is what, this is what we're talking about. This is the dream. This is what we hope that every kid with any kind of challenge disability could have. This kind of a, that's what people need to understand. What you said Greg, is that we didn't start out doing this. We didn't know any of this. We got our friends together, went out and played soccer and we were like, hey, we're going to make sure your kids are included and we take care of, we were dedicated taking care of the typical kids and the special needs kids, making sure their dreams came true. And in a sense you could say that all of our kids went through these, but we actually learned these five levels. We didn't create them.
Speaker 4:
7:17
So we sat down and wrote down what we learned. Exactly. So I think it's important for the listener to know, again, I'm going to go back through them. The first level based on what Jackson was talking about is community. It's social inclusion and we'll include some of this information in the description of the podcast so you can go back and read it. The second level is connection, emotional inclusion and what a Jackson was talking about the scene I think. Do you have any, any people you keep up with outside of , um, of the programs or outside of , uh, you know, any program that have special needs? Um, I do , um, I still keep in touch with, with , with this kid in his family. And um, that's cool. That's very good. That's emotional inclusion. So to me, emotional inclusion is like , like Nathan our producer, he has helped my son learned to communicate using a software. We create , um, set him up , uh , and work, I'm sorry, going on dates with him that they've set up a gone to movies. Uh, my son's been , uh, in, in , um, in Mu , in a, in a movie documentary that talked about , uh , kids, especially east , he's had a tremendous number of opportunities outside of a program. And I think emotional inclusion is, Yep , I want to have a relationship with you. I want to be your friend for the rest of your life. And that, that's what cause, cause what happens when you graduate high school is you're , you're , you're gone. And so emotional inclusion takes place when you're an adult. What Greg was referring to with this, this, this friend of his is he's got relationships that are still his relationships after he became
Speaker 3:
8:56
an adult. And if you never make emotional inclusion, then everyone ends up alone afterwards. And that's what I felt about the kid and Barnes and nobles is that he was alone. Yeah. They get after high school, they get regulated back to I guess so do you want to look at levels level one, right? You're like, okay, well you know, we're going to pay people to , uh , include you in the community essentially. Right. Cause [inaudible] we could argue is that even inclusion, if I'm being, if I'm, if I'm being taken to a place , if I could say something about that , um, with, with what we were discussing earlier , um, at the end of the first section was the difference between um, modifying and adapting. Yeah. Um, I think the difference there is what, what you are , what Nathan was just describing. That's , that's modifying where you completely, where you , you're changing the environment , um, for, for everyone. Um, whereas in your , there's no inclusion and modification, whereas an adaptive , um, in my class at San Jose state, there's a class called intro to adaptive physical activity. In one thing that's talked about frequently. And one thing that I've given presentations on is , um, the difference between modifying and adapting. Whereas , uh , when, when you adapt something , um, it's, it change , it doesn't, it doesn't change the actual activity. All it does is it , it helps inclusion. Whereas when you modify something, it completely changes the environment or it could completely change the environment and completely change the outcome. Hmm. So That's interesting when you said, cause I think we, Russ and I, when we started east soccer , we weren't thinking about are we modifying or adapting, but we , we, we did adapting, we didn't realize we were doing it right or still doing soccer. We're teaching all the same, which is much more productive. And the goal was to help these kids really learn soccer, build teamwork, friendships, you know, the bond of being on a team sport, all that. Right. Which, which is different. Yeah. And between east soccer and other maybe like house league programs where they have separate teams for sure . Children with special needs like that, that's modified physical activity where they put good children with special needs all on one team. Right. Whereas east soccer is inclusive. It's adaptive and includes people from all backgrounds and we can respect people who say, I don't want adaptive. Right. I want modified . But you know, and I think that me, that was my position was no, I want, I want, I didn't know I was doing this. Right. Great . We didn't know I wanted adaptive to me cause I'm not studying what you're studying. I just went, I want them to have a day to day life. Yeah. And we want to talk for a minute about how do you implement the five levels in day to day life. I want it, my kids ever day to day life. Yeah. That was with people. I don't care if my child with special needs finishes first, second, third or fourth. I don't care whether they're the coolest kid in the room. I just want them to be able to walk, talk, be with people. Because to me relationship is me means I'm with you. Yeah. And, and, and you want
Speaker 4:
11:53
to know me. And so the inclusion of community is good and I congratulate and encourage more of that in classrooms, in recreation centers, in community centers. The connection part. I think that's hard. Yeah . Because that means I'm not just gonna come and help you add a program. Like I'm not going to just be an aid at school to a kid who has special needs. When I go home and I look three doors down, right . And I see a family with special needs, I'm going to go by their house and say hello and go, hey, you know, I , I have a, you know, I do this or I do that. I'm going to get to know them. I'm going to say hello. Uh , to, they're , they're , they're a child. I was out , uh, at a , um , a restaurant and I saw a family and , uh , they were, they had a , their, their, their daughter was a clearly on a, on a, on a soccer team , uh , a typical soccer team. And they were sitting there with the grandparent, grandmother, mom and the dad, and they had a special needs kid, looked about six. And I was like, aw , man, I don't want to barge into their life. But I just wanted to tell them that, yeah . That we had all these east sports programs. I walked up, I said, does your daughter play a soccer? And they though the mom kind of smile . He goes, no. And I said, well, you know we have these elite programs that she may be interested in. Yeah , and I'm just going to give you my card and you can look up. Here's the web address. I think when you get into emotional inclusion, you don't just volunteer. Right ? The you now carry this with you day to day. Yeah. You , yeah. That's what I'm thinking. And I think you, you you're that way Jackson. And I think I want you to talk a little bit more about like, you've come to me and wanted to interview me and write papers . All right , why in the world do you care? I'm like, why not just go off and live your life and have a good time instead of getting involved in something that is so helpful and so transformative. But like I think it would help people to know how old are you? I'm 20 years old. They want to , how would, why would a 20 year old guy not just be like, Hey, I'm going to go dating and go to Tahoe and go skiing and that's sounding good fun to do it. I'll do it all now, but I'm just thinking it would be good for them to get a window into, into why your motivation because they can hear me and go, right , well you're a parent. Of course you feel all those things right. But in , you know, Greg and you are best friends and have grown up together and your kids are going to get course you guys want to do this and , but, but what about you? Why you?
Speaker 3:
14:17
Um, I think I've grown up doing east soccer and seeing , um , I don't know, just seeing how different inclusion is , uh , from like seeing, seeing what happens when someone feels included and being able to see , um, like the inspiration that happens in the gratitude of the parents.
Speaker 4:
14:38
Can you tell me another instance? You talked about the singing. Can you tell me another instance? You, maybe you were just sitting on a field, maybe you were looking from a distance where you felt that that emotion ,
Speaker 3:
14:48
um, I could tell you another situation at east soccer. It was a, it was before east soccer started. It was maybe 30 minutes. I think a family had gotten there early or either that or they had to leave the house. They tried to leave. I think it was, they tried to leave the house early to get there on time cause it was harder for them to get out the door. I know that feeling because of their children, but um, which, and they got there actually 30 minutes early and it was while we were setting up the field. This was in Walnut Creek , um, at the walnut creaky soccer. So we, but I saw while we were setting up the field and we were about to get all the coaches together , um , but some part of me wanted, wanted to go talk to the family. So because I didn't want them just to stand there as the first , it was the first time out. I didn't want them just to stand there and watch us do what we do. I wanted to make sure that they felt included and that they know what was going on. So I went and talked to them. Um, and before I had even gotten to say my name, you know, introduce myself or introduce this as east soccer, they, I came up to them and uh , before I had even met them before. Yeah, we like the first second we made eye contact, they asked me is this he soccer? This is the program that we've heard so much about. And I was like, this is definitely east soccer. Um, and I introduced myself. We got to know each other better, but just being able to hear their story and hear how they've tried so many things. And yeah, like how east soccer's just different. Cause I had gone to other, they had been in Alameda, they had been in San Ramon . Um , just looking for different programs for their children and seeing, I'm seeing the level of inclusion that happens. And seeing the gratitude from the parents I think really gets me thinking about how many lives can , can be changed. That's, that's the reason I do it is because for me, that's, that's how I get to make the most impact as I possibly can. And it's, for me, it's more than a resume, you know, like, this is what I want to do with my life. The dream for me is to be able to work in the Special Olympics like that . That's what I want to do with my career or anything that has to do with adaptive physical activity , um, that cause, so that's just how I feel like, so the most important you to see this, and I want everybody to understand this in that one moment that's comprehensive inclusion. Yeah. In that one moment you included them in the community instantly by going over to them and talking to them. And that one moment you made a connection because you felt emotionally the frustration that any parent with special needs can have. Of what program, what thing can I involve them in that isn't school? Because our programs take place on weekends when a lot of parents are at home going, what do I do? Cause cause the regular program is not going to necessarily, they're going to take me to a modified situation. Not An adaptive situation. Right, right . A lot of cases you're not even going to have a modified one. Exactly. And in that moment you, you actually were involved with them intellectually because you're your cause . Intellectual is actually looking at how do I provide dignity and a contribution, how do I contribute? And a lot of times it's getting the whole family to feel like they are contributing. How do they contribute? When you see a family
Speaker 4:
17:50
and they come to something and they have special needs and you treat them the way you would treat a typical family and you treated them like not only are they there to benefit, but they're contributing. Right? They're contributing by their presence. They're contributing by their involvement. And the moment you include a family, you now have included that kid. And that's the difference with our programs. Right. Greg. Yeah. Our programs don't look at special needs kids just as, hey, come over here and we're going to take care of you for while we actually think they do something for us. Right. Yeah ,
Speaker 5:
18:18
absolutely. No, I mean what you and I think about how the coolest thing is watching the kids not just come and participate. You know, typical kids, special needs kids alongside each other. But once they're a part of it, they're, they're learning to give back. They're , they're becoming coaches there . So, yeah, I think that I think about what you shared was just the beginning of what they're going to experience.
Speaker 4:
18:38
You know what I think about when I think about that, what I was saying is that they give to us. I was watching a film that was done, actually our producer Nathan worked on the film that was done about a r r program and it had a scene from the hoops that I had not, I was not there. And the giving out of the awards to kids. They were getting different awards and one kid was on the screen and he , he kinda tapped his heart and put his award right in front of his chest. And in that moment, that kid was not
Speaker 6:
19:11
a,
Speaker 4:
19:12
the person being served by a program. Right. He was a participant in giving to the program and you could see it in the eyes of everybody who looked. Yeah. Because in his accomplishment, all of the coaches had accomplished something. Right , right. And it's a beautiful moment and it's a contribution to you, like my guess is Jackson, that you're a ton more confident because you've had an opportunity to work with kids, see them develop and see them grow. So their intellectual contribution to you is to make you say, Hey, I'm, I'm actually capable of changing a life forever. And that's embedded in you now I see it. I've known you since you were a teenager. And I guess, yeah, I don't, I think I can count on the number of, I can count on my fingers how many conversations we've had. But yeah, knowing someone is when you have special needs kids knowing someone is physical, it's emotional, it's in silence, it's watching someone interact, it's watching someone walk, it's watching someone talk it , seeing how someone's shy and then all of a sudden they're confident. So there's a whole lot. Sure. Knowing someone, right? Sure . And so I've watched you as a teenager and I remember seeing you at functions, you know, scared to do certain things and then go to the point where you now do those things. You just kind of get up there and do it. Now. You may still be nervous, but I can't tell. And so that confidence, people don't understand science . I understand where their confidence comes from. And Greg and I've seen this a million times where people come into the program and Nathan, you know, he's seeing people into the program and they think, oh, I'm giving to this kid. And they don't all the time. They don't realize, not only that kid's giving you [inaudible] speed in the journey.
Speaker 3:
20:56
Yeah, no, I was going to say, that's one of the things I always tell people. I say, I said, you can never, you can never outgive how much you feel given to by serving it in that kind of a program please. Because, because the amount of time you spend, it's , it doesn't feel like sacrifice, you know, when you're going, you're , I'm going to go give my time on a Saturday morning and , and coach and work hard and there's so much you get back, you get way more back than you feel like you're ever giving . Yeah.
Speaker 4:
21:21
Do you remember, you talked about one of the kids you mentioned earlier. Yeah. You did . Did he ever, did you ever interact with him on the NBA? Oh, he is brilliant. At least in his understanding of all the stats and the figures and the players. And that's what he tells me all the time. It gives me all about all the game players. Yeah. That's what I made . Brilliant with that stuff . I go to him every NBA season. Yeah . And I say, so, you know, I liked the warriors. Uh, you know, and , and , and, and, and when, when Dwayne Wade was in Lavonne with, he liked the heat and I go, what, what , what am I chances? How am I looking? What's the , what's the season going to be like? He will , he can run it down. He'll give me a layout of what the possibilities are with the potential ar it play off games. Who's gonna win? That's intellectual contribution. Yeah . And I think a lot of times we miss sometimes, yeah . That because we grade people out on IQ [inaudible] we have it in our mind. Well I don't know where your IQ is. I don't know if you can contribute . You know what I think one , I think the IQ thing is overstated and, and a lot of people have tremendous IQ, no ECU and they're not very effective at much of anything except, you know , right . Put them in a room by themselves and let them work on a project. Good. But anything beyond that, they're not. But I think somethings we have to remember, part of humanizing people with special needs is seeing that they can make a contribution. Yeah. And not always framing them as they need help and we are the great saviors walking in to save them, which is the difference, which is what I was talking
Speaker 3:
22:45
about . I think earlier with the difference between empathy and sympathy. Like I think it all brings back, it all comes back to that. It all comes back to how, how can you help as opposed to how you feel, you know? Um, and I think those two are connected , uh , because you help because you feel like you should. But , um, I think it goes deeper into the, into more , um, do you help out? Like do you like one I help out the special needs community because I believe that it can make impact on the world. Um, but which , um, other people can come out to Isacur and think I'm here because I want to get credit for a class. I'm here because I need to, I should help. Um, but I think what's really going to help inclusion is helping because you believe that you, that your help or that because you are there, the world can be changed. Cool.
Speaker 4:
23:36
I like that. Let me tell you, sorry . So what I saw Matt See , I think one of the things is, and in, in, in the five levels of inclusion, again, our , our , our social inclusion, emotional inclusion, intellectual conclusion, spiritual inclusion and comprehensive inclusion. And we'll try to make sure we post not only a , you know, some of the information, we'll try to make sure we post a graphic so you can kind of look at it and get a quick look. But what I want to , what I want to make note of is, you know, when I was in high school, I was made a coach for fifth and sixth graders. My coach wanted us, some of us to coach and I coached a team that was pretty good and I really loved it. I mean these kids, you know, I , I was training all the time so I really wasn't like looking for something else to do, but I ended up coaching them and then about , um, five to seven years later, I can't do the math that quickly in my head. I went back to watch a high school game and four of the guys that I coached were , uh, in the top six players on the team and they were a state ranked team , uh , in Michigan. Wow. I got so much out of it. I still have the basketball that they signed for me that their parents wanted me to have because they were grateful for me coaching. But I got so much out of going to that game and looking and seeing what they did. I think what they did for me is made me ready to parent kids with special needs because I learned early in my life that there's so much you can do for a typical kid if you show up. And I think yeah , to humanize, to truly humanize special needs kids. You can't see them only as the people you help. I think that's a critical thing, right? You have to see them as people help you. Exactly . A kid in that classroom that you're presenting to needs to see the need they have. But I think they also have to see the need they have that they, they need to see the kid it's have or the adults have the special needs, but they also need to see that they have a need. And I think part of what's missing and why inclusion doesn't make places. People look and say, well that person in a wheelchair just needs my hell . No. You need their help . Yeah. And I think until we flipped that, and I think your generation could do it and stop even always referring to it, I'm going to go do these people a favor. Right. I'm coming out here. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but somebody probably did you a favor. Did me a favor. Right , right , right , right. What you're really doing is you're believing that my involvement with this person is going to change my life.
Speaker 5:
26:07
I just think it's , I mean, you know, I go back to when you and I ride in that car talking about figuring out something for the kids. It was inclusive for your boys. And I mean, here I was a single guy or no , I was just newly married, no kids. But I always, I often credit , um, one at some of the greatest lessons I ever learned to becoming a dad of my own two boys now, where that was the first time that I ever really worked closely with kids. And I got the chance to work with both of your kids with their, with their different challenges and needs, but just the friendship we built, the hours we spent together. Yes . And that has shaped as a dad forever. And I look at my kids who are now helping in the program, right , right. But every day, you know, you talking about the day to day life, man, I'd say those, those moments on those east soccer fields, all those years before I had my kids, that shaped how I am as a dad. And I even remember before doing that thinking, man, I, I kinda liked my, my young married with no kids life. And I was like, man, it's gonna be challenging having kids. But boy, I felt so different about being a dad when I had the kids. And, and just, it's , it's absolutely shaped the way I am as a dad. So that's what it gave to me. You were talking about, you know, I came out and served, I brought the soccer skills, I tried to serve and help and, and all that. But I got so much in return because I look at my boys in the family that, that , that I've been able to, you know, to be blessed with because of how that shaped my heart and taught me things and how to raise my boys,
Speaker 4:
27:30
I think. I think two people for us, but then also for listeners, like you won't necessarily a hundred percent even grasp and understand that you actually have that need, that that person can fit and fill and until you actually do it and you're actually in the thick of it. Cause I think when I think about inclusion, I think inclusive programs are great. I'm a part of multiple inclusive programs and I love them. But I think inclusion happens in the day to day life. And in the moments like Jackson, you were talking about the story of that family, right? Where you're like, let me go take care of my responsibility to do this thing, but I'm going to take this one moment to go talk to this family. And they had so much hope and excitement, you know, rash you're talking about at wherever you were , Applebee's or something at their restaurant, right? You're going up and you're talking to that family, right? And you're like, oh, you know, you see them maybe potentially being a soccer player, you take that moment to go up and talk to that person. I just think it's, I think for anybody who inclusion happens in those moments, it's taking that that one moment to go have a conversation. Yeah . Or it's even our basketball analyst friend that we were talking about. Right. It's taking a moment to ask him like, what do you, what are the odds on the season, you know , from my fantasy league or whatever. Yes. You know, they con they contribute in those moments and that, those moments that make the most of a difference for people. This is me, is our podcast and today we're grateful to be able to have Jackson Shaffer join us and wish them good luck and all of his endeavors at San Jose state. Thank you. Yup . But we also want to say to you, remember, we're not denying that inclusion is hard. It can be challenging cause we, most of us didn't grow up , uh , knowing how to do it. But we hear what Nathan just said. When you hear what Greg was sharing with Jackson and sharing it is so incredibly worth it not just for people with disabilities, but it will affect change for people who are homeless, for people who are , uh, alone , uh, in, in society. Just making a society that knows how to include people. We're going to talk more about the five levels of inclusion in the weeks and months ahead. We're going to keep it in front of us and bring in more guest . Thank you for listening. If you made it this far , uh , we're not going to give up. We hope you don't give up. And if you're a parent out, know that
Speaker 2:
29:42
there are a lot of people fighting hard. Try to make sure that you're not alone in your journey. Your beautiful journey of raising a kid with special needs or an adult with special needs. Have a great [inaudible] .
Speaker 1:
30:08
[inaudible] .
0:08
[inaudible] . Hello
Speaker 2:
0:08
and welcome to this as mean a podcast on inclusion. Today is part two of our conversation from last week about the five levels of inclusion. Head on over to digital scribbler.com for the original article on the five levels of inclusion to understand the whole philosophy behind what we're discussing today. We'll also link it in the description below. On another note, please take them over to leave a five star rating and write us a glowing review. You will really help our show in getting our message of inclusion out there for a larger audience, but for now, let's pick up on Russ, Greg , and Jackson's conversation on implementing the five levels of inclusion. All right , we're going to go into our second part or part two of how to implement the five levels
Speaker 3:
0:46
of inclusion. We spent a lot of time in the first section, just really an hopefully if you made it to the end of that setting, the framing, the discussion around why it's so important and why it means so much to all of us, but we're going to tackle the five levels of inclusion. And of course we got Jackson here and Greg and they're going to just kind of , um , approach this from a, here's what we think about the levels of inclusion, how they work, how they fit, if they fit. So I think Jackson's going to get us started. Yeah. All right , let's get going. I'll give you my thoughts about the five. Um, first one we talked about was community. Um , that's talking about social inclusion. Um, my thoughts on that one, it's , uh , briefly is , um, is almost if you yourself want to be part of a social inclusion, it's you putting yourself , um, or you helping other being part of a community. Um, that's , that's not as , um, it's not, it might not be as privileged. I might not be as that or that might need more help. But social inclusion is either a community , um, that you go into to help or a community that , uh , you bring along with you to be included. Like we were talking about earlier in section one with , um, including , uh, children with special needs . We might've been talking about this before the first podcast. I can't remember. Part one, I'm talking about bringing children with a special needs into a classroom full of children with typical needs is that's , that's the first stage. That's that sort of community. Um, that's, that's what social inclusion is or programs like soccer's that's social inclusion. Um, uh , another stage , uh , was, which is what I was talking about even more in , in part one, it was , uh , emotional inclusion and that for me is really when I was talking about with my story with, with the, with the other child that I was working with , um, uh, when we were singing songs together. That's that for me is that's that emotional inclusion where it goes deeper than just being a part of a community. It's putting yourself in someone else's shoes. I have a question. What do you think this is Nathan? The producer anyway, the new voice on the microphone. But what do you , when you look at the fellows of inclusion, when I read it, I thought there's one that was specifically for me with a little too daunting or a little like, oh that's a tough one. That's a tough one. Engage with or to like actually get myself to actually respond and want to do something about it. Take Action on. And so for you, when you read the , any of those stand out to you of like, Ooh , this one's a little too little too daunting, right? Cause I think it's, I think even when we talked about in your first story and the, in the, in the first segment about the Barnes and noble story, like there it's, it's, it can be hard enough for an individual to emotionally include somebody. Yes. And to emotionally engage somebody with special needs. Yes. Um, I can share for myself what I thought was the most daunting I think. What's contemplation and cause specifically cause that word purpose and the definition of contemplation. Cause it says contemplation and spiritual inclusion in the pursuit of meaning and purpose. I think it's hard to give somebody purpose. I find it hard to give somebody her purpose because I think that that is one of the hardest things for me to even always know about myself and to identify for myself , um, is okay, what is my purpose? And I have a hard time even wrestling with that as an individual. But then , um, how do I even give that to somebody else's , specifically somebody who's coming into the world or are fighting through a lot of different disadvantages or different kinds of things already going against them. You know what I mean? Yeah . I was curious for you like Jackson, like what, what is the thing that you, when you look at that like, Ooh , that's a little daunting? Uh, when I look at them , it's , um, intellectual inclusion. I think for me , um, I'm just, I'm a very emotional being, so it's easy for me to feel strongly about things, but as far as I'm actually be a getting, getting other people or putting myself out there ,
Speaker 4:
4:30
there , uh , to know about different communities. I think that one, that one daunts me cause there's just so much that I don't know. So what we're talking about then is we're talking about two things. You started us off really great Jackson talking about the fact that you almost put them in steps. And I guess probably I'd never thought about that when I was writing. I didn't think about that. But you basically said, look, the first step is the community, right? So social, and you said the second step is the emotional, and then you just said that the challenge for you is the third step. And did I really, did I say third step? Well the third step is intellectual. Oh, okay. Yeah , yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah. So that, that you, you, you just mentioned you did you do the first to hit the third one. That's the hard one. And I think what people need to understand is we're not saying is easy, right? No, no , definitely. I think that's what words come out. It's not easy. Right, right. Greg? I mean it's, it's a challenge. It's
Speaker 5:
5:21
w when I was thinking about these levels, I , it's cool because I think about why when we started east sports with the soccer , um, I , I just think how we were just thinking, let's create this community of kids with special needs and typical kids and coaches and , and let's just, let's get them together to be able to play sports together. So it was just the community thing. I wasn't thinking beyond that, but I, I, it's funny, I , there's a story, I'm an I , there's one individual I can think of who's gone through all these stages. I mean, he started day one with special needs and you know, I won't say his name. Well, his name is Larry. I won't give you more than that. But he started, it was just a kid out there with some needs and are getting help in the program. Um, but because of the connection, he made the relationships not only on the field and with the coaches, but those friendships that carried into his high school years and off the field that later he became a coach himself and he was coaching other kids with special needs. And now he's gone on to college or he's, you know, an adult now as a young adult, he comes back and he helps train. He comes to the trainings. So he has gone from community connections to the contribution of coaching and now I look at contemplation. He comes back and he trains coaches how to coach and so he's really run the gamut. He's gone through the steps. He's, he's really achieved when we think about all these levels. And I never, you know, it's funny when we, when we started with this, we were trying to try to build something with inclusion, but we didn't think about these levels. But you can, I can look at that example and go, this is what, this is what we're talking about. This is the dream. This is what we hope that every kid with any kind of challenge disability could have. This kind of a, that's what people need to understand. What you said Greg, is that we didn't start out doing this. We didn't know any of this. We got our friends together, went out and played soccer and we were like, hey, we're going to make sure your kids are included and we take care of, we were dedicated taking care of the typical kids and the special needs kids, making sure their dreams came true. And in a sense you could say that all of our kids went through these, but we actually learned these five levels. We didn't create them.
Speaker 4:
7:17
So we sat down and wrote down what we learned. Exactly. So I think it's important for the listener to know, again, I'm going to go back through them. The first level based on what Jackson was talking about is community. It's social inclusion and we'll include some of this information in the description of the podcast so you can go back and read it. The second level is connection, emotional inclusion and what a Jackson was talking about the scene I think. Do you have any, any people you keep up with outside of , um, of the programs or outside of , uh, you know, any program that have special needs? Um, I do , um, I still keep in touch with, with , with this kid in his family. And um, that's cool. That's very good. That's emotional inclusion. So to me, emotional inclusion is like , like Nathan our producer, he has helped my son learned to communicate using a software. We create , um, set him up , uh , and work, I'm sorry, going on dates with him that they've set up a gone to movies. Uh, my son's been , uh, in, in , um, in Mu , in a, in a movie documentary that talked about , uh , kids, especially east , he's had a tremendous number of opportunities outside of a program. And I think emotional inclusion is, Yep , I want to have a relationship with you. I want to be your friend for the rest of your life. And that, that's what cause, cause what happens when you graduate high school is you're , you're , you're gone. And so emotional inclusion takes place when you're an adult. What Greg was referring to with this, this, this friend of his is he's got relationships that are still his relationships after he became
Speaker 3:
8:56
an adult. And if you never make emotional inclusion, then everyone ends up alone afterwards. And that's what I felt about the kid and Barnes and nobles is that he was alone. Yeah. They get after high school, they get regulated back to I guess so do you want to look at levels level one, right? You're like, okay, well you know, we're going to pay people to , uh , include you in the community essentially. Right. Cause [inaudible] we could argue is that even inclusion, if I'm being, if I'm, if I'm being taken to a place , if I could say something about that , um, with, with what we were discussing earlier , um, at the end of the first section was the difference between um, modifying and adapting. Yeah. Um, I think the difference there is what, what you are , what Nathan was just describing. That's , that's modifying where you completely, where you , you're changing the environment , um, for, for everyone. Um, whereas in your , there's no inclusion and modification, whereas an adaptive , um, in my class at San Jose state, there's a class called intro to adaptive physical activity. In one thing that's talked about frequently. And one thing that I've given presentations on is , um, the difference between modifying and adapting. Whereas , uh , when, when you adapt something , um, it's, it change , it doesn't, it doesn't change the actual activity. All it does is it , it helps inclusion. Whereas when you modify something, it completely changes the environment or it could completely change the environment and completely change the outcome. Hmm. So That's interesting when you said, cause I think we, Russ and I, when we started east soccer , we weren't thinking about are we modifying or adapting, but we , we, we did adapting, we didn't realize we were doing it right or still doing soccer. We're teaching all the same, which is much more productive. And the goal was to help these kids really learn soccer, build teamwork, friendships, you know, the bond of being on a team sport, all that. Right. Which, which is different. Yeah. And between east soccer and other maybe like house league programs where they have separate teams for sure . Children with special needs like that, that's modified physical activity where they put good children with special needs all on one team. Right. Whereas east soccer is inclusive. It's adaptive and includes people from all backgrounds and we can respect people who say, I don't want adaptive. Right. I want modified . But you know, and I think that me, that was my position was no, I want, I want, I didn't know I was doing this. Right. Great . We didn't know I wanted adaptive to me cause I'm not studying what you're studying. I just went, I want them to have a day to day life. Yeah. And we want to talk for a minute about how do you implement the five levels in day to day life. I want it, my kids ever day to day life. Yeah. That was with people. I don't care if my child with special needs finishes first, second, third or fourth. I don't care whether they're the coolest kid in the room. I just want them to be able to walk, talk, be with people. Because to me relationship is me means I'm with you. Yeah. And, and, and you want
Speaker 4:
11:53
to know me. And so the inclusion of community is good and I congratulate and encourage more of that in classrooms, in recreation centers, in community centers. The connection part. I think that's hard. Yeah . Because that means I'm not just gonna come and help you add a program. Like I'm not going to just be an aid at school to a kid who has special needs. When I go home and I look three doors down, right . And I see a family with special needs, I'm going to go by their house and say hello and go, hey, you know, I , I have a, you know, I do this or I do that. I'm going to get to know them. I'm going to say hello. Uh , to, they're , they're , they're a child. I was out , uh, at a , um , a restaurant and I saw a family and , uh , they were, they had a , their, their, their daughter was a clearly on a, on a, on a soccer team , uh , a typical soccer team. And they were sitting there with the grandparent, grandmother, mom and the dad, and they had a special needs kid, looked about six. And I was like, aw , man, I don't want to barge into their life. But I just wanted to tell them that, yeah . That we had all these east sports programs. I walked up, I said, does your daughter play a soccer? And they though the mom kind of smile . He goes, no. And I said, well, you know we have these elite programs that she may be interested in. Yeah , and I'm just going to give you my card and you can look up. Here's the web address. I think when you get into emotional inclusion, you don't just volunteer. Right ? The you now carry this with you day to day. Yeah. You , yeah. That's what I'm thinking. And I think you, you you're that way Jackson. And I think I want you to talk a little bit more about like, you've come to me and wanted to interview me and write papers . All right , why in the world do you care? I'm like, why not just go off and live your life and have a good time instead of getting involved in something that is so helpful and so transformative. But like I think it would help people to know how old are you? I'm 20 years old. They want to , how would, why would a 20 year old guy not just be like, Hey, I'm going to go dating and go to Tahoe and go skiing and that's sounding good fun to do it. I'll do it all now, but I'm just thinking it would be good for them to get a window into, into why your motivation because they can hear me and go, right , well you're a parent. Of course you feel all those things right. But in , you know, Greg and you are best friends and have grown up together and your kids are going to get course you guys want to do this and , but, but what about you? Why you?
Speaker 3:
14:17
Um, I think I've grown up doing east soccer and seeing , um , I don't know, just seeing how different inclusion is , uh , from like seeing, seeing what happens when someone feels included and being able to see , um, like the inspiration that happens in the gratitude of the parents.
Speaker 4:
14:38
Can you tell me another instance? You talked about the singing. Can you tell me another instance? You, maybe you were just sitting on a field, maybe you were looking from a distance where you felt that that emotion ,
Speaker 3:
14:48
um, I could tell you another situation at east soccer. It was a, it was before east soccer started. It was maybe 30 minutes. I think a family had gotten there early or either that or they had to leave the house. They tried to leave. I think it was, they tried to leave the house early to get there on time cause it was harder for them to get out the door. I know that feeling because of their children, but um, which, and they got there actually 30 minutes early and it was while we were setting up the field. This was in Walnut Creek , um, at the walnut creaky soccer. So we, but I saw while we were setting up the field and we were about to get all the coaches together , um , but some part of me wanted, wanted to go talk to the family. So because I didn't want them just to stand there as the first , it was the first time out. I didn't want them just to stand there and watch us do what we do. I wanted to make sure that they felt included and that they know what was going on. So I went and talked to them. Um, and before I had even gotten to say my name, you know, introduce myself or introduce this as east soccer, they, I came up to them and uh , before I had even met them before. Yeah, we like the first second we made eye contact, they asked me is this he soccer? This is the program that we've heard so much about. And I was like, this is definitely east soccer. Um, and I introduced myself. We got to know each other better, but just being able to hear their story and hear how they've tried so many things. And yeah, like how east soccer's just different. Cause I had gone to other, they had been in Alameda, they had been in San Ramon . Um , just looking for different programs for their children and seeing, I'm seeing the level of inclusion that happens. And seeing the gratitude from the parents I think really gets me thinking about how many lives can , can be changed. That's, that's the reason I do it is because for me, that's, that's how I get to make the most impact as I possibly can. And it's, for me, it's more than a resume, you know, like, this is what I want to do with my life. The dream for me is to be able to work in the Special Olympics like that . That's what I want to do with my career or anything that has to do with adaptive physical activity , um, that cause, so that's just how I feel like, so the most important you to see this, and I want everybody to understand this in that one moment that's comprehensive inclusion. Yeah. In that one moment you included them in the community instantly by going over to them and talking to them. And that one moment you made a connection because you felt emotionally the frustration that any parent with special needs can have. Of what program, what thing can I involve them in that isn't school? Because our programs take place on weekends when a lot of parents are at home going, what do I do? Cause cause the regular program is not going to necessarily, they're going to take me to a modified situation. Not An adaptive situation. Right, right . A lot of cases you're not even going to have a modified one. Exactly. And in that moment you, you actually were involved with them intellectually because you're your cause . Intellectual is actually looking at how do I provide dignity and a contribution, how do I contribute? And a lot of times it's getting the whole family to feel like they are contributing. How do they contribute? When you see a family
Speaker 4:
17:50
and they come to something and they have special needs and you treat them the way you would treat a typical family and you treated them like not only are they there to benefit, but they're contributing. Right? They're contributing by their presence. They're contributing by their involvement. And the moment you include a family, you now have included that kid. And that's the difference with our programs. Right. Greg. Yeah. Our programs don't look at special needs kids just as, hey, come over here and we're going to take care of you for while we actually think they do something for us. Right. Yeah ,
Speaker 5:
18:18
absolutely. No, I mean what you and I think about how the coolest thing is watching the kids not just come and participate. You know, typical kids, special needs kids alongside each other. But once they're a part of it, they're, they're learning to give back. They're , they're becoming coaches there . So, yeah, I think that I think about what you shared was just the beginning of what they're going to experience.
Speaker 4:
18:38
You know what I think about when I think about that, what I was saying is that they give to us. I was watching a film that was done, actually our producer Nathan worked on the film that was done about a r r program and it had a scene from the hoops that I had not, I was not there. And the giving out of the awards to kids. They were getting different awards and one kid was on the screen and he , he kinda tapped his heart and put his award right in front of his chest. And in that moment, that kid was not
Speaker 6:
19:11
a,
Speaker 4:
19:12
the person being served by a program. Right. He was a participant in giving to the program and you could see it in the eyes of everybody who looked. Yeah. Because in his accomplishment, all of the coaches had accomplished something. Right , right. And it's a beautiful moment and it's a contribution to you, like my guess is Jackson, that you're a ton more confident because you've had an opportunity to work with kids, see them develop and see them grow. So their intellectual contribution to you is to make you say, Hey, I'm, I'm actually capable of changing a life forever. And that's embedded in you now I see it. I've known you since you were a teenager. And I guess, yeah, I don't, I think I can count on the number of, I can count on my fingers how many conversations we've had. But yeah, knowing someone is when you have special needs kids knowing someone is physical, it's emotional, it's in silence, it's watching someone interact, it's watching someone walk, it's watching someone talk it , seeing how someone's shy and then all of a sudden they're confident. So there's a whole lot. Sure. Knowing someone, right? Sure . And so I've watched you as a teenager and I remember seeing you at functions, you know, scared to do certain things and then go to the point where you now do those things. You just kind of get up there and do it. Now. You may still be nervous, but I can't tell. And so that confidence, people don't understand science . I understand where their confidence comes from. And Greg and I've seen this a million times where people come into the program and Nathan, you know, he's seeing people into the program and they think, oh, I'm giving to this kid. And they don't all the time. They don't realize, not only that kid's giving you [inaudible] speed in the journey.
Speaker 3:
20:56
Yeah, no, I was going to say, that's one of the things I always tell people. I say, I said, you can never, you can never outgive how much you feel given to by serving it in that kind of a program please. Because, because the amount of time you spend, it's , it doesn't feel like sacrifice, you know, when you're going, you're , I'm going to go give my time on a Saturday morning and , and coach and work hard and there's so much you get back, you get way more back than you feel like you're ever giving . Yeah.
Speaker 4:
21:21
Do you remember, you talked about one of the kids you mentioned earlier. Yeah. You did . Did he ever, did you ever interact with him on the NBA? Oh, he is brilliant. At least in his understanding of all the stats and the figures and the players. And that's what he tells me all the time. It gives me all about all the game players. Yeah. That's what I made . Brilliant with that stuff . I go to him every NBA season. Yeah . And I say, so, you know, I liked the warriors. Uh, you know, and , and , and, and, and when, when Dwayne Wade was in Lavonne with, he liked the heat and I go, what, what , what am I chances? How am I looking? What's the , what's the season going to be like? He will , he can run it down. He'll give me a layout of what the possibilities are with the potential ar it play off games. Who's gonna win? That's intellectual contribution. Yeah . And I think a lot of times we miss sometimes, yeah . That because we grade people out on IQ [inaudible] we have it in our mind. Well I don't know where your IQ is. I don't know if you can contribute . You know what I think one , I think the IQ thing is overstated and, and a lot of people have tremendous IQ, no ECU and they're not very effective at much of anything except, you know , right . Put them in a room by themselves and let them work on a project. Good. But anything beyond that, they're not. But I think somethings we have to remember, part of humanizing people with special needs is seeing that they can make a contribution. Yeah. And not always framing them as they need help and we are the great saviors walking in to save them, which is the difference, which is what I was talking
Speaker 3:
22:45
about . I think earlier with the difference between empathy and sympathy. Like I think it all brings back, it all comes back to that. It all comes back to how, how can you help as opposed to how you feel, you know? Um, and I think those two are connected , uh , because you help because you feel like you should. But , um, I think it goes deeper into the, into more , um, do you help out? Like do you like one I help out the special needs community because I believe that it can make impact on the world. Um, but which , um, other people can come out to Isacur and think I'm here because I want to get credit for a class. I'm here because I need to, I should help. Um, but I think what's really going to help inclusion is helping because you believe that you, that your help or that because you are there, the world can be changed. Cool.
Speaker 4:
23:36
I like that. Let me tell you, sorry . So what I saw Matt See , I think one of the things is, and in, in, in the five levels of inclusion, again, our , our , our social inclusion, emotional inclusion, intellectual conclusion, spiritual inclusion and comprehensive inclusion. And we'll try to make sure we post not only a , you know, some of the information, we'll try to make sure we post a graphic so you can kind of look at it and get a quick look. But what I want to , what I want to make note of is, you know, when I was in high school, I was made a coach for fifth and sixth graders. My coach wanted us, some of us to coach and I coached a team that was pretty good and I really loved it. I mean these kids, you know, I , I was training all the time so I really wasn't like looking for something else to do, but I ended up coaching them and then about , um, five to seven years later, I can't do the math that quickly in my head. I went back to watch a high school game and four of the guys that I coached were , uh, in the top six players on the team and they were a state ranked team , uh , in Michigan. Wow. I got so much out of it. I still have the basketball that they signed for me that their parents wanted me to have because they were grateful for me coaching. But I got so much out of going to that game and looking and seeing what they did. I think what they did for me is made me ready to parent kids with special needs because I learned early in my life that there's so much you can do for a typical kid if you show up. And I think yeah , to humanize, to truly humanize special needs kids. You can't see them only as the people you help. I think that's a critical thing, right? You have to see them as people help you. Exactly . A kid in that classroom that you're presenting to needs to see the need they have. But I think they also have to see the need they have that they, they need to see the kid it's have or the adults have the special needs, but they also need to see that they have a need. And I think part of what's missing and why inclusion doesn't make places. People look and say, well that person in a wheelchair just needs my hell . No. You need their help . Yeah. And I think until we flipped that, and I think your generation could do it and stop even always referring to it, I'm going to go do these people a favor. Right. I'm coming out here. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but somebody probably did you a favor. Did me a favor. Right , right , right , right. What you're really doing is you're believing that my involvement with this person is going to change my life.
Speaker 5:
26:07
I just think it's , I mean, you know, I go back to when you and I ride in that car talking about figuring out something for the kids. It was inclusive for your boys. And I mean, here I was a single guy or no , I was just newly married, no kids. But I always, I often credit , um, one at some of the greatest lessons I ever learned to becoming a dad of my own two boys now, where that was the first time that I ever really worked closely with kids. And I got the chance to work with both of your kids with their, with their different challenges and needs, but just the friendship we built, the hours we spent together. Yes . And that has shaped as a dad forever. And I look at my kids who are now helping in the program, right , right. But every day, you know, you talking about the day to day life, man, I'd say those, those moments on those east soccer fields, all those years before I had my kids, that shaped how I am as a dad. And I even remember before doing that thinking, man, I, I kinda liked my, my young married with no kids life. And I was like, man, it's gonna be challenging having kids. But boy, I felt so different about being a dad when I had the kids. And, and just, it's , it's absolutely shaped the way I am as a dad. So that's what it gave to me. You were talking about, you know, I came out and served, I brought the soccer skills, I tried to serve and help and, and all that. But I got so much in return because I look at my boys in the family that, that , that I've been able to, you know, to be blessed with because of how that shaped my heart and taught me things and how to raise my boys,
Speaker 4:
27:30
I think. I think two people for us, but then also for listeners, like you won't necessarily a hundred percent even grasp and understand that you actually have that need, that that person can fit and fill and until you actually do it and you're actually in the thick of it. Cause I think when I think about inclusion, I think inclusive programs are great. I'm a part of multiple inclusive programs and I love them. But I think inclusion happens in the day to day life. And in the moments like Jackson, you were talking about the story of that family, right? Where you're like, let me go take care of my responsibility to do this thing, but I'm going to take this one moment to go talk to this family. And they had so much hope and excitement, you know, rash you're talking about at wherever you were , Applebee's or something at their restaurant, right? You're going up and you're talking to that family, right? And you're like, oh, you know, you see them maybe potentially being a soccer player, you take that moment to go up and talk to that person. I just think it's, I think for anybody who inclusion happens in those moments, it's taking that that one moment to go have a conversation. Yeah . Or it's even our basketball analyst friend that we were talking about. Right. It's taking a moment to ask him like, what do you, what are the odds on the season, you know , from my fantasy league or whatever. Yes. You know, they con they contribute in those moments and that, those moments that make the most of a difference for people. This is me, is our podcast and today we're grateful to be able to have Jackson Shaffer join us and wish them good luck and all of his endeavors at San Jose state. Thank you. Yup . But we also want to say to you, remember, we're not denying that inclusion is hard. It can be challenging cause we, most of us didn't grow up , uh , knowing how to do it. But we hear what Nathan just said. When you hear what Greg was sharing with Jackson and sharing it is so incredibly worth it not just for people with disabilities, but it will affect change for people who are homeless, for people who are , uh, alone , uh, in, in society. Just making a society that knows how to include people. We're going to talk more about the five levels of inclusion in the weeks and months ahead. We're going to keep it in front of us and bring in more guest . Thank you for listening. If you made it this far , uh , we're not going to give up. We hope you don't give up. And if you're a parent out, know that
Speaker 2:
29:42
there are a lot of people fighting hard. Try to make sure that you're not alone in your journey. Your beautiful journey of raising a kid with special needs or an adult with special needs. Have a great [inaudible] .
Speaker 1:
30:08
[inaudible] .
