Jackie Aston: Welcome to the differentiated love and sex podcast. I'm Jackie Aston. I'm a licensed psychotherapist and relationship coach with over a decade of experience working with individuals and couples to strengthen their mental health and improve their relationships.
Catherine Roebuck: And I'm Catherine Roebuck. I'm a relationship coach and I work with couples and individuals all over the world on loving each other and themselves. And today we're joined by Dr. Corey Allen, who is a writer, marriage therapist, podcaster, speaker, ⁓ basically dedicates his life to encouraging people to experience more in their relationships. And he's got a book coming out probably in October that is called Go First, How One Person Can Change Every Relationship in Their Life. So we're really excited to hear a little bit about that today. ⁓ And also to hear about infidelity and his perspective on that.
Jackie Aston: Okay, so Cory has had a podcast for a long time and you can find ⁓ lots of information already on that from him. But Cory, we just wanted to have a conversation with you today. Can you share a little bit with us about yourself, anything else you wanna add? And then we'll jump into our topic.
Dr Corey Allan: I mean, the only other real accomplishment, I would call it in some ways, is have been married to the same woman for 33 years now. So that's, I find that more and more of an anomaly, in the world. We got married young. I mean, and for the most part, our running joke whenever I get a chance to speak is we've been married for 33 years and for 29 of them have been pretty good. So.
Jackie Aston: Yes. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: The others were really, really dicey. But we see it as a process and a progress we're making. We don't ever arrive someplace. So it's constantly an evolving thing.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.
Catherine Roebuck: Those are pretty good ratios, actually. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, I'm not complaining about it at all. And I attribute a lot of this because I've been in the field and met David Schnarsh and the training with him. been practicing for 25 years now almost. And that's changed my life, not just my profession. So it completely changed how I view marriage and how we do marriage.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: My wife has been on board from the very beginning with as I started learning stuff, she started telling me about that and asking questions and we started going. We even went to some stuff with David and Ruth together and it was fantastic on how it changed us.
Jackie Aston: That's amazing. So when did you start with Dr. Schnarch? Like when did you start attending his trainings?
Dr Corey Allan: The very first time I was introduced to him was in grad school and then my first training was probably around 2005 or so. I mean, I was just finishing up grad school and he did a two day ⁓ constructing, ⁓ deconstructing affairs in the crucible. I think was probably one of his first ones I went to. And I'm like, I'm in, I'm seeing clients with this already. Let's go.
Jackie Aston: ⁓ wow, okay.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm. Nice.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: Soon as I read his work and saw him work, it's like, this just makes complete sense to me. This is just a good way to look at life.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Well, that's great. Well, that's actually that that training is seems applicable to our topic today. Affairs and fidelity. So what do you think? Just thinking about some actually, let pause there. How do you take a differentiation based approach to dealing with infidelity? Because I think there a lot of ideas about infidelity, what causes it, and there's a lot of pain and hurt and our audience, we're trying to give them an idea about being a more solid person and how to deal with conflict. an infidelity is not only conflict, but it's a lot of trust that's broken, a lot of hurt.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, and I think one of the things just to kind of start the conversation, I've been very interested in you guys' perspective too, because I realize ⁓ there's a variety of nuances even when we all have similar trainings, because I've met you ladies through a lot of the different Schnarch world as well. ⁓ But oftentimes I think of infidelity and betrayals, they're symptoms of something that was already present. It's not the key factor at play here. And most people ⁓ come in seeking therapy, thinking that's what we need to fix rather than, wait, there's something else that was there prior that is a part of this dynamic, not that it was, and this is one thing I'd be very careful about.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: on how it's worded because sometimes we hear what we want to hear and then we don't hear anything else. And a lot of times I think it's when people think of it as wait, it's not that I caused something because of the state of my marriage ahead of time, but the state of my marriage was a factor in what choices were made. And so.
Jackie Aston: Yeah. Mm.
Dr Corey Allan: It's starting to separate that out between both spouses on who's responsible for themselves in what ways in the dynamic that's created. And when you can start getting underneath it to that level, then you have something you can build that's completely different. But if you get couples that come in and all I want is I just want to heal from this betrayal and I want to be able to trust them again, that's the wrong question in my mind. That's a factor, but that's not the primary thing at play here.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. That's interesting, because I do hear people talk about wanting to get kind of back to how things were before the affair. And that's not a great idea, because the way things were before the affair had the conditions for an affair to happen, right? So, yeah.
Jackie Aston: Interesting,
Dr Corey Allan: Right? Yep. Yeah. And one of the things, this is one of the things I picked up from David right off the bat that I think that kind of hooked me into, okay, this has a lot more meat to it and it's a lot more nuanced. He had, I don't remember where the article I saw it was, but there was a little cutout. on it and it stood out to me because I was hearing this all the time with clients I was working with that had infidelity as their primary reason they were seeking therapy was the betrayed spouse being able in a state of being able to say I can't believe you did this to me right and it's almost an accusatory you intentionally did this just to hurt me I mean and it's a reactionary
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: ⁓ They're spiraling, they're reeling, they're in pain, the ground is gone for them in some ways. And so you can understand, you're just clinging for anything to try to make sense. But he took the stance of, what exactly did they do to you? Because you weren't involved, right? And being one that has had an emotional betrayal in my marriage five years in, ⁓
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm, interesting.
Dr Corey Allan: I did not evolve into that with a how can I stick it to my wife? I mean, that was not at all ever a thought process. It was more how do you got to separate it out? And when you can use something like that as a as an in, you can start to separate it out to okay, wait, they didn't actually do anything to you. They did something to themselves. So now how do you separate out how you relate to somebody that's shown what they're capable of? And then how do you also create an opportunity to see, to let them see what are they capable of? Because I use it in my own mindset in my own life of I never thought I'd be capable of what I chose. But now that I have chosen what I chose five years into marriage, I know what I'm capable of. So.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: And I also know what I'm capable of on building something beyond that. And so it's just the nuance is where our hurt and our pain doesn't allow us to really investigate and settle as well and grow more because we often just want the pain to go away. And that's where I think a lot of times approaches fall short on dealing with what really needs to get dealt with because it's not just the betrayed spouse that needs to be fixed.
Jackie Aston: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. What? Yeah. Why do you think that the partner who's been hurt takes that stance of, did this to me? Like, what is that about?
Dr Corey Allan: right, or the betrayer that needs to be fixed. It's both.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Well, think a lot of it's based on a ⁓ more fused mindset anyway of you belong to me. I get my identity through you. I get my worth through us. I get a value through the role I play with you, which in and of themselves aren't necessarily wrong. But when we dial it too far, we completely lose ourself. And so I lose perspective. I overreact. I don't function well when somebody doesn't operate the way I want them to operate. And well, welcome to marriage. You know, my wife's going to come home tonight and I guarantee you she's not going to be in the mood I want her to be in. She'll be in the mood she's in. Right. And so it's just OK. That's the reality of living life with somebody else. And how do I see that as there's nothing broken here?
Catherine Roebuck: you
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: It's just part of the process and that's part of the dynamic. I think that we come into marriage with this fused mindset or this you complete me quoting the worst movie line in Jerry Maguire ever. And it's like it's that kind of concept is the Hollywoodization hall marketization of we will create this great thing together because of whatever and it's like, well, you can but it's not at the expense of self. It's at it's at a choice of both.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Because you're talking about separateness and two people having their own identity, their own separate selves. I also think that that position of saying you did this to me, it's just so much easier to hand over the problem to your partner. And it's understandable, especially if you've been hurt to want to do that. And what they did, you know, it was pretty impactful to the relationship. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: But think that is a way for the couple to move away from what they need to work on together.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, because we get over reactionary in these when our hurt kicks in, man, we can burn a house down quickly and not even realize we're doing it, right? And it's that idea of, I don't think I can ever trust you again. And then I'm always quick to, okay, wait, to mean what, right? Trust to do what? Because we will blanketly throw these things around.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: And it's like, you'll still allow. Let's just use the example of him. He was the betrayer. You'll still allow him to care for your children. So you trust him. You trust him to be a good father and you trust him to still go to work and you trust him to, you know, some of these things. you can't, you always have to dig deeper into. You can't just be. If you keep the blanket reaction, then it puts it all on his shoulders to help you feel better.
Jackie Aston: Yes.
Dr Corey Allan: And that's an impossible equation.
Catherine Roebuck: So how are you putting these two things together of the betraying spouse didn't do anything to the betrayed spouse and then using those terms because even saying like the betrayed spouse seems to me to have built into it this idea that something was done to them. So how are you thinking about that?
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. So then like what's on their shoulders? If if what are they what are they really facing? Is that kind of what you're asking?
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah, it's this idea that, I mean, you said David framed it as like, first of all, they didn't do anything to you. But then these are, I think, terms that he used of like the betrayed, or I think he said the resolute spouse and
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, the resolutes vows is one of the phrases that kind of helps separate it out of they aren't the ones that strayed. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So like is betrayal something that your spouse does to you? That's the question, I guess.
Dr Corey Allan: I think of it in terms of it's not something they do to you. It's collateral damage you have to face though of something they have done to the system and to themselves. Because there's there's other things going on here as well, right? Because I mean, even if you take Esther Perel's work of how happy people she has discovered do cheat, right? It's not because somebody was just unhappy and they weren't getting what they wanted in a marriage. And that was the reason why they they strayed.
Catherine Roebuck: Okay.
Jackie Aston: Mm-mm-mm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: which would lead towards this belief that if we can just get what I want in the marriage, I won't stray, which that's just not true. So how do you settle yourself down knowing I'm in a relationship with somebody that's not safe? And that's not the question we ask very often. And that's the stuff that gets blown completely wide open when there's a betrayal.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: or when there's any kind of lie about something or any, because again, this is where you start to get into the nuance. I you ladies, you ladies are in the field. A lot of what I'll see with clients where there's betrayal that's happened, there's an element of, if it would have just come clean right at the very beginning, like it wasn't discovered, it was actually brought forward. There's a different healing path then because...
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: What really wreaks the most havoc in marriages is the lying and the denials of everything.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: It's not the fact that you went and slept with somebody else or got involved in a relationship in some level with somebody else. That's still destructive and painful. Yes. But the fact that you tried to hide it from me, like I'm an idiot, like I like I don't know something's going on, even though I don't know what it is. And so it's that there's the nuance where I think most therapy needs to rest and land, not on.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Okay, how are you just more upfront about what you want? How are you better at communicating what you want? How do we have a contract that says this will never happen again? Actually had a client came to me that they went to another therapist and said, we're going to have a no affair contract. I'm like, isn't that what the marriage was going in? I mean, maybe I'm wrong in the way I view what marriage is, but it's like, it's already been on all, it's already been voided. So, right. Let's talk about both of us just being respectable humans.
Jackie Aston: Yes.
Catherine Roebuck: You
Jackie Aston: Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: You tried that one, yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: And what do I want to do as I see me conducting myself in this relationship? How am I earning my own self-respect? And so for the one that's the resolute spouse, it's helping them in a lot of ways, and this is way David framed it, I think that's really helpful. It made them the wild card if they can really get a hold of themselves better. Now, if you don't need to earn me back, right? This is not about that. You don't need to soften this for me. I've got to deal with what just happened because she does. She's got to deal with the turmoil, the hurt, the lie, all of it. She's going to have to face that. But when she can settle herself down enough to actually be in a position to truly take the risk of he'll choose me or he won't.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: That puts a tremendous pressure on him to get his act together on who does he wanna be in this relationship and as a person in life. How does he wanna conduct himself? And that's a propelling both members forward, not getting stuck over this thing that how do we resolve this? How do I make sure it doesn't ever happen again? How do I get find the best tracker?
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: information. How do I know your codes to all your phones and all the stuff that you know everything which transparency could be a part of the factor. I'll agree with that of there can be benefit to that but it's not a long-term solution because none of us need to live under 100 you know non-stop surveillance.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, you know... And I think, I mean, that's exhausting for the couple. It's like it creates this hypervigilance and it's like, I'm monitoring you. That's also not sexy. And, you know, so I think it takes up a lot of emotional space for people who say, show me your phone. Let me look through your phone. Let me know where you are. And it's, do you really want to monitor your husband or wife? Like their child? And that's even, they go beyond that because they wouldn't be doing that with their kid.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bye.
Jackie Aston: all the time if that was like a healthy parent-child dynamic. And so I think that doesn't help, but definitely transparency. And so we could talk about what that is. But I think it's really hard for the resolute spouse who feels that it's so personal to them. And so it's like, you don't care about me. I don't matter enough for you not to do this.
Dr Corey Allan: What's that?
Jackie Aston: And I think that's really hard to talk, like when I talk about this with clients who have that idea, it's like, it feels so personal, but that taking it personally is just like, gets in the way of moving forward. So how do you deal with that, Corey?
Dr Corey Allan: Well, so a lot of times and it's a pithy statement, so it's easy to say and it's incredibly hard to do. I will acknowledge this upfront. It's the idea of I think a lot of times in life I get better when I can be better at not taking things in my marriage so personally I can actually be more personal in my marriage.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, yes.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Because when I take things personally, like as if my wife acts a certain way and I think it's a personal affront to me and an attack to me, and there could be absolute nuance in there that it is. Because sometimes we are very, very good assassins in our own relationships. ⁓ And I know exactly what I'm doing.
Jackie Aston: Yes, yes. Yes.
Dr Corey Allan: But for the most part, I believe, ⁓ you know, I'm not near as important as my, in my wife's life, as I'd like to think I am in her life. She is important in her life. She's the primary of her life and all that she's got going on. So when I can see it as I separate myself to get a different perspective of, well, this wasn't an intentional thing to just destroy me.
Jackie Aston: Mm.
Dr Corey Allan: This was something that did fall on me and I have to deal with, but it wasn't an egregious. How can I really get them today? Cause if that's the case, then we got other things you need to be talking about. And usually it's an exit strategy. ⁓ but.
Jackie Aston: Yeah. Yeah. You know what I think is often helpful is when the partner who the resolutes spouse sees that, yes, they contributed to the dynamic, but they see that their partner is willing to hide. The partner is ⁓ understanding more about what the affair is about, the infidelity is about. That's really helpful because it's not about them. I mean, yes, there are issues probably in the relationship.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: but it's the fact that sometimes the person who cheats is escaping from real life problems and stress, or sometimes that person is bored and is looking for something else exciting and sort of like a way to get away from the routine. And so it's not really about them, even though it does impact them. And so I think it can be helpful when in the couple's work for the resolute spouse,
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: to see and understand what the infidelity is about so they don't take it so personally. It's still not the easiest thing not to take it personally, but if you understand what's going on with the person.
Dr Corey Allan: Absolutely. It's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly difficult to deal with the depths of what we're required to face in marriage as an adult. ⁓ For both spouses to do this, to do that. It's so hard to do because it all has impact, direct impact. When I wanted to explain, this is the thing I've loved exploring more of Esther Perel's work and seeing how she helps create a container.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: that allows both spouses to confront themselves in some ways within the presence of each other. I Schnarch did this as well, but it's that same kind of concept of a lot of times the whole focus is on who got hurt. That's where everything needs to rest and reside when I'm hanging on. If the person that betrayed. really recognized, wait a second, what was that really about for me? What, what, what was, what am I really facing in this marriage and in my own life and who I am and who I want to be? There's work they need to do. And oftentimes there's not room for that.
Jackie Aston: Can you talk about that? Can you talk about that more specifically? So how someone navigates that who ⁓ has not been honest, who has had an emotional or physical relationship outside of their marriage, where that's not been like, okay, that's not been what the agreement is.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, a lot of times you're talking about somebody that, I mean, you were hinting at it a little bit already, Jackie, of maybe they are trying to escape from things and that's just been the easy way to do it. As weird as that sounds. Because I found somebody that understands me and well, it's all illusionary, right? Every single relationship you start with is just everybody's PR departments.
Jackie Aston: Mm-mm. Yes, yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: And so it's not legit. It's not a real relationship. You haven't met the back office yet. So if you leave a relationship because one seems ideal, well, it's not going to be ideal in time. That's just the way it's going to go. So there could be an element of that. Well, I finally got somebody that listens to me, but that's not real. They're not really listening to you. They're just a good reflection back. If you like what you're getting back, they're not actually being honest themselves either. They're caught in, right. They're caught in la la land as well. Yep. Both of you are just pie in the sky, chemically induced high in your brain because of a new relationship and the taboo of it or the risk of it. There can also be an element you alluded to of, want some, I'm kind of bored. And so this seems the way to bring some variety. Well, what is it that makes me to where I don't have the courage to bring that to my spouse?
Jackie Aston: Okay, so you're talking about validation. That's like one of the things that feels good. It's like very complimentary. Okay.
Dr Corey Allan: to just say, I'm kind of bored. And it's not just be sexually. Cause a lot of times I think there's affairs that have nothing to do with the sex. It's the emotional, it's the relational, it's everything. It's the shared journey, it's the whatever, which still are falling short of really being known. And I think that's what we're all striving for. I am, of how am I willing to take the risk of really being known in the relationships in my life?
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: ⁓ huh.
Dr Corey Allan: which means I'm gonna uncover and share parts of me that my wife's not gonna necessarily applaud at first glance, right? Because it's always unilateral. I mean, I use the joke on Sexy Marriage Radio all the time of if to me I've got this huge dream of I just wanna have sex on our roof, which in Texas in August, no, you can't do that, it's too dangerous. But other times of the year, maybe so. But if that's my dream, well, when I bring that up to her, It's not very likely she's going to be I've just been so waiting for you to say that I can't wait. Let's do it. It's it's likely going to be why in the world you want to do that and that's that's not what I get when I get a good reflected relationship going. I get that that sounds great. I've always wanted to do that too. You know, I get all that stuff when I don't know if they're telling me the truth or not. And that's the I mean to me the crux of where most marriages actually are is there.
Jackie Aston: Thank
Dr Corey Allan: is they both play the proper role for what they perceive rather than, okay, that freaks me out a little bit. But I also hear what you're saying because that's a different kind of an adult move in some ways. I like I could kind of understand the nuance of that. But but shingles do nothing for me, babe. Right. So so especially in the summer and then in the winter because it's cold. No. But but it's just that element of revealing myself.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Especially in the summer. Ha ha ha.
Dr Corey Allan: means I take a risk that it's not going to be received well. But I don't ever get an opportunity often in marriage where I have an assurance it will be received well. I have to just take the risk.
Jackie Aston: Yes, but you're trying to be real and you also want someone who's going to be real back, but hopefully decent about it. You just don't guarantee that. You just can't say that.
Dr Corey Allan: Well, true. And it's also that element of, want them to be real back in accordance with my real, not in accordance with where their real actually is. Right. Because there's an element I've actually worked with a couple from years ago that he wanted to open up the marriage and she did it. And, and it was like, okay, we got some serious, we've got a serious gridlock issue here and
Jackie Aston: Okay, yep, yep.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: He was even wanting her to help him get ready for the night he would go out. And he was going to head to another club and pick somebody up. And so as we're talking, it didn't finally click with her. Because she did not want to give up the marriage. She did not want to give up him. But she for sure wasn't going to do that. But she couldn't find where is the spot. Because what she's being pressed to do
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: is something she don't want to do. And most of us don't ever actually ask ourselves the questions of what length will I go? Right? Where do I actually need to stand for my own integrity and my own respect of who I want to be? Because that's a developmental differentiated move. I'm like, you know what, honey, if you want to keep cheating, I'm not trying to stop you.
Catherine Roebuck: So.
Dr Corey Allan: But I won't be here when you get back and that's kind of where she was like if you're going to do this, I'm not home. When you're getting ready and when you come back, I'm not here that night. I don't know if that means I'm gone forever. But I'm not there and that was the move that was big enough for him to go. Can wait, I don't know if I want to risk that much yet. Because she's serious and that put it back on both shoulders to actually have to act in line with who they want to be. Who are they?
Jackie Aston: Yeah, that's more solid.
Dr Corey Allan: And I think that's the way to look at what marriage requires of us all the time.
Catherine Roebuck: Okay, so you're saying that if you take what your spouse does less personally, then you're able to be more personal. Is this what you mean of just like revealing more of yourself, being more real?
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, and being able to stand for what I really believe and willing to go to the mat for. Regardless, the cost, well, regardless, I don't like that word, knowing the cost is the better of like, look, because that's the whole thing of if you guys worked with couples where there's been habitual affairs and it's like, at what point is too many? Right, because some people will just like, well, but and we convince ourselves rather than hang on.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: What do you need to do that really is facing the reality of what's going on? Because I think too often we want to alter our realities rather than how do I face who this person actually is and who I actually am in this. Because if I, and it has to be probably in reverse order of who am I?
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: in this dynamic and how I've tolerated, allowed, not spoken up about, just erupted about and hope that would be enough or what, you all these different patterns I've got rather than, mean, I look back at my wife, what shifted it for me, oddly enough, because I really, I don't know how I was so naive at 27, but I was a 27 year old teenager at this time. She gave me the ring back. And she's like, if things don't change, this is done. And I never believed she would do that. Honestly, I mean, I never believed it, even knowing what I had done. I never believed she'd go. And when she did, I was like, hang on. Give me a moment to let me get my life in order because I got to. And then this isn't over as far as I'm concerned either, but. And that kind of shifted me into a different path is where I am now of like, wait, that was a huge wake one of many huge wake up calls in that journey of like, okay, I've got to face some things in me because my wife had the courage to risk it. Of like, I'm not going to settle for this. And if that means I got to be the bad guy and leave, I'll do it. And I think that's a lot of times we don't really have the honest. Not that I have to go do it, but I don't have the honest work to decide what would I do.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. That's a big deal. I appreciate you sharing that because I think you could track in her that she was serious. And ⁓ we're talking about how both people are part of this dynamic of the infidelity happening. Again, it's not, there's issues going on that need to be addressed. And so your wife essentially was saying, you know, I'm not going to participate in this and close my eyes to it or make excuses for you.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.
Jackie Aston: and you had pressure. Otherwise you would have been like, well, she's going to be around here forever. So you kind of do what, you know, have it my way.
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. I just need to get better not getting caught if I choose to do it again. Although I didn't get caught. came clean because it was I hit a point of like, uh-uh, this is not who I am and ended what was starting and then a couple of days later it was like, ⁓ we need to talk babe because she knew she knew it. I mean she could tell the map. She's like what's going on? Like well funny you should ask and I didn't say it that way, but I was scared to death, but but it's still
Jackie Aston: Yeah, yes. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm
Jackie Aston: Yeah, that's good for you.
Dr Corey Allan: When we're paying attention, and this is the same thing, I think with couples where there's been betrayal that has gone on, outside of the one night stands, but even those, there's signals that we pick up, we just can't settle what it is in the system. you get an intuition, something has shifted, but I don't have the courage oftentimes to actually ask the harder question. But I get a sense something is off and I've yet to ever work with a couple where that has not been true. Where a couple comes in, I had no ideas. Okay, put a pin in that. I want to come back to that in a little bit. Once you get a little more settled, let's explore that because I don't think that's true. And that kind of gets their brain working a little different on what was it could have been? Well, you know, and then you kind of look back at, okay, I'm not shocked. I'm hurt.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm.
Jackie Aston: Mmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: But when I look at the whole landscape, OK, I can see. And that's the difference of that's also the same mechanism I believe we use to move forward. Because it's the difference between like you mentioned earlier, Jackie, of I'm just going to I want full transparency. I want tracking. I want check ins. I want you answer every single question honestly on all these different things when that's all fear based more and more than anything. But intuition will let me know. if something else is going on again. I'll figure it out because we are too stupid as human beings to hide things in a marriage. We just are. If either of us are waking up and paying attention, my spouse can't keep anything hidden from me. Well, you know what I mean.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. That's what I think about in terms of healing too. It's you're talking about presence. So what is it like when I'm with this person? What do I notice? Like noticing the changes, noticing that someone is, ⁓ they're shifting in the dynamic as well. So the tracking is sort of like pseudo security of like, I know it's all good.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: even though it takes a hit to the marriage as well because it's just exhausting and it's a burden and it's a block from real connection. But it's like you're in the presence of your partner where you can track them and you're not gonna know everything. But I think.
Dr Corey Allan: No, and you don't need to. I mean, I think that's one of the myths we need to dispel is there are secrets in marriage. I mean, there are things in my life that my wife doesn't need to know. If she asked me, I'll tell her. But there are some things that have nothing to do with her, and she needs to be OK with that variance, just like I need to be OK with the variance of what she's got in her world. That's nothing to do with me.
Jackie Aston: Yes, yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: But you're putting forward this line of if she asks, you'll tell her. And so do you think there's room for secrets where your spouse asks and you still won't tell them?
Dr Corey Allan: I knew Kath, alright when I said it, I thought Catherine's going to jump on that one. ⁓ That's the way her mind goes. I've been privy to her mind for awhile now. ⁓ So I mean, obviously nuance and context would matter on everything because some of the stuff would be like. Well, if you really mean it might it might have a big impact. Right, because and again, most of these things I'm thinking of.
Catherine Roebuck: ⁓ I love these details. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: ⁓ She's good, yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: that where they're pretty minor. Obviously, if there's a bigger relational dynamic that's going to require quite a bit from me or from her that will have a bigger impact on either one of us, then yeah, that has that needs to be addressed by impact, not necessarily intent. And and so I think there's some nuance that's important in that. But I also try to just dispel the myth of I know everything about. No, you don't.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. You never will, yeah. No, another person's mind is a mystery, like to a great degree. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: You just don't need to. Yeah, you just don't need to. And I don't want to. It frees me up. I used to have this fear of, ⁓ like if Pam walked in the room and she's like, hey, I was just. Nah, nevermind. And then she walked off, because I think this is a human thing. We answer our own question, and we realize it was stupid to even ask in the first place. I used to have this reaction. What? What did you want? What did you... And I would go crazy in my mind of what were you wanting to ask me? Now I see this, good, one less thing I have to worry about on her mind. was like, fine, she'll handle what she needs to handle. I'll deal with whatever comes up. And it's just trying to separate us to have an appropriate healthy space.
Jackie Aston: See ya.
Dr Corey Allan: for each of us to have to handle ourselves.
Jackie Aston: think about with this. you're talking about these aren't like really big secrets. These aren't things that need to come to light that are dishonest. It's more of like, do you really need to know all of my thoughts? Some of them are, I'm pretty regressed, or I'm thinking things that aren't nice. I'm thinking things that aren't nice about you, or I'm distracted by somebody else. And I know that that's not helpful. I'm sort of escaping. And so it's more of like, it's not
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: you
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep.
Jackie Aston: helpful and we could say it's a similar thing to like the monitoring is like tell me every thought that you're having all the time and that's just that's too much it doesn't even make sense so I think that actually could hurt the relationship is this ⁓ and couples can do this where it's sort of confession about what is going on what thoughts they had how they interacted with somebody and I think again there's gonna people are gonna have to come forward if they've crossed certain lines
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: But it's more of each person needs to take care of themselves and get on top of what they need to get on top of and be honest with themselves, make the behavior change, get some support if they need it. But it's not the confession and it's not the let me tell you everything all the time. It's gonna interfere.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's it's built that that's built on the belief that if I could actually understand you, then our problem would go away when in reality, when my understanding of my wife is not that if I understand her, that doesn't take our problems away. She has a different view on things than I do. That's what's natural and normal and healthy, actually. And some of her problems I can do nothing about.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Jackie Aston: Let's see.
Dr Corey Allan: I mean, she's primary care for her mother in the season we're in right now. I she lived with us for a month. And now my wife is there almost every day where she's living. And she's got this tremendous guilt anytime her mom feels lonely and sad. And I can look and read and go, you're feeling guilty, aren't you? She's like, yeah, I'm like, there ain't nothing I can do about that.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: I disagree with why she feels guilty because I don't. We've provided good safety. We've got good support for her. We've done what we can do as children. But she doesn't see it that way. Well, that's our problem and the difference. And that's not going away. Even when I understand her stance.
Jackie Aston: Yes.
Catherine Roebuck: One of the things that seems really difficult is when there's like a long time pattern where one person strays and then maybe they do couples counseling and they make some agreement, but then it happens again. And this pattern where someone keeps presenting like, I'm sorry, and I'm working through it, but then it continues to happen. How do you work with that?
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The first thing that came to my mind is some of the phrases I've actually said to couples that have had this where I've become the one of the therapists down the line, because they've tried a couple of others, well, they didn't work or whatever. And so I usually when I'll hear that kind of a pattern, I'll just look at, let's just, I'm going to pick on the guy again, I'll pick on my own kind as the one that's been the repeater. I'll just looking square in the eye and say, okay, so how many, what's your number then?
Jackie Aston: and how we do it.
Dr Corey Allan: What's number that's going to make you stop? What's that really? Because obviously, and I'm kind of doing it this way because I want her to see somebody confront him differently. Because obviously he's not sorry about something. And so as a guy, I can do that a little easier with other guys on just shoot straight. I'm like, OK, so when you hit five affairs, that's when you would stop.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Assuming she'd still be and just kind of present. Just shake it up a little bit on. Have you even thought about what you're doing and how it's landing? Because she isn't quite clear yet, and when she becomes clear, it's going to change the dynamic. But I got you gotta get one of them to really stand up. Or the system will just keep going the way it's going.
Catherine Roebuck: So what are you looking for as like indication that if somebody has done this a bunch of times, they keep presenting like they're sorry, you can tell they're not really sorry. But when you're working with them, what are you looking for as indication of something really has shifted in them?
Dr Corey Allan: Right. Typically, one of them would be a lot more settled in how they confront themselves within the dynamic of if it was the person that had played the card of, I'm sorry, it'll never happen again. All that. And then it happens again. Well, I'm sorry. It'll happen. And then they really do come in different on like, yeah, I'm I'm awful. I don't I don't you know, you kind of see yourself differently. I don't know I actually am sorry.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Right? That, okay, well, at least it's honest. Now we can start to do something. It's cold, but it's honest. Because again, I think the humanness in us, tell me if I'm wrong, ladies, even when it's really ugly, when it's honest, I can deal with that differently. Right? Like if you are just being completely cruel to me, and it's honest when you recognize it, I can deal with that differently.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: than if you're trying to soften it and act like it was a one-off and all these things. When it's like, no, it's, you cause then you start really dealing with what's really going on here. What really is the pattern for you? Cause the marriage isn't going to fix it. That's about them. That's not about the marriage.
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah. Yeah, and something I noticed. Yeah, so I noticed that people function way better when they're dealing with reality, even if it's terrible, even if it's ugly and scary and all of that. Like that's still better and your brain can handle it better and you can be more settled in contact with it than if you're dealing with some kind of pretty lie that you've put together.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Yeah, because otherwise you're trying to deal with the masking that's happening of like, don't, know, our brains pick up, there's something else underneath that. And then we start spinning even more rather than, no, I just can't tell you. I just can't tell the truth. I just can't speak up. I won't even admit it to myself.
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: It's like multiple offenses. It's not just the affair. It's the, do I handle the fact that I had an affair and what am I doing to my partner and their mind about what I'm doing? So am I gonna twist it to make it seem like this was something else or say this really isn't who I am and what I'm doing? So I think then it's like, gets more complex and there's more pain and hurt and things to work through. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep.
Jackie Aston: But I was going to say that I think in these dynamics where there's this ⁓ infidelity, the couple really, both people are pressured. You're having to see what it, to face their own integrity. I think that's what it's about. And we're talking about affairs, but this could be anything else. This could be how I'm handling my kids. This could be how I'm handling my work, ⁓ finances, how honest I am.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: This is a charge topic for most people. So, you know, it can feel a little bit different, but I think it's all about integrity. And if you're working with a couple and you see that one partner is really just sort of asking for forgiveness, there's an integrity issue there about, and they're not really serious about doing anything. And so it's dealing with that person's integrity, which has a very big impact on how they're going to feel about themselves, even if they can sort of suppress
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: the anxiety and the feelings that they have about themselves. And it's gonna have a big impact on their partner and their relationship. just, doesn't, think until the integrity issue is addressed, nothing really gets better.
Dr Corey Allan: Right. And that's where a lot of times, ⁓ sadly enough, the level of a couple's relationship with an infidelity that's happened is is the biggest crucible there is to help actually bring safety integrity will stand up or not. Because it's it's one of the you know, you can say it's one of the most egregious things that happen. But if you think about it, there's there's. all kinds of pseudo levels of betrayal throughout all of marriage. You said you were going to get milk on your way home and you didn't you betrayed me. It's right. Well, they're not necessarily wrong. It's a little bit harsh with the way we're spinning it a little but it's still it's an integrity thing of I said I'm going to do this and I didn't. So what do I do with that? Because that's where marriage has to also be built on a level of grace.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: Yes. Yes.
Dr Corey Allan: and on a level of love and a level of forgiveness. Because I one of my favorite phrases of Schnarch is, know, in marriage, we have to realize that there's an emotional terrorist and then there's our spouse to deal with too. Right. And, and that's the way we live of it's, it's, I don't recognize sometimes what is my spouse actually up against when they have to deal with me.
Catherine Roebuck: Right.
Jackie Aston: You
Dr Corey Allan: And if I use that as a phrase, man, it changes the trajectory of what I can create and what it can become together because I'm just trying to take care of my side of the equation and choose better.
Catherine Roebuck: And it's easy for the resolute spouse to point out the integrity issues on the strain partner side, but there's serious integrity issues on the side of the resolute spouse as well, where they're having a hard time holding onto their own values, their own commitments about what they will and won't put up with or go along with or their, you know, their
Dr Corey Allan: Right.
Catherine Roebuck: having this intuitive sense that something's off and then they're pushing that aside and they're not acting on it over and over. And so it can be just as difficult for the resolute partner to like confront themselves about how much have I known that I wasn't willing to directly address.
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep. Right. And if you can't settle down the resolute spouse enough, they won't ask themselves that question.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Right, well, they won't confront themselves enough. And that's where it's trying to get the balance equal on both shoulders better in the therapeutic process to where both see, OK, wait, I've got to carry my weight and in my own life. And then I'll see what happens with the marriage, because that's that's also the kind of same concept of the marriage you have is done. Question is, do you want to create a new one together or not?
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah.
Jackie Aston: Well, thanks so much, Corey, for talking with us today and sharing your insights. I'm thinking that we'll hear about some of this in your book because you said one person, your ⁓ subtitle is One Person Can Shift the Relationship. And ⁓ so is there anything else you want to leave our audience with and remind us where we can find you or our audience can find you?
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep. ⁓ Absolutely, no. So you can find me at smr.fm is the home on my online world that stands for Sexy Marriage Radio. It's a podcast that we have that's been going for over 15 years now almost. And we talk all things sex as the hook to talk about life is really the idea. New shows come out on Wednesday. My wife is my co-host. Then we have guests every so often as well. and I'm doing a lot more writing as well. But no, the only thing I would want to leave the audience with is just realizing that ⁓ regardless of what we are capable of, we are capable of really good things, right? That we can do negative and destructive things, but man, we can also build really good things in the same life with the same people. And it's just all about how I handle myself better.
Jackie Aston: Well, that's very encouraging. That's a great way to end. So thank you to our audience for joining us for differentiated love and sex, and we hope you join us next week.
Catherine Roebuck: That's awesome.
Catherine Roebuck: And I'm Catherine Roebuck. I'm a relationship coach and I work with couples and individuals all over the world on loving each other and themselves. And today we're joined by Dr. Corey Allen, who is a writer, marriage therapist, podcaster, speaker, ⁓ basically dedicates his life to encouraging people to experience more in their relationships. And he's got a book coming out probably in October that is called Go First, How One Person Can Change Every Relationship in Their Life. So we're really excited to hear a little bit about that today. ⁓ And also to hear about infidelity and his perspective on that.
Jackie Aston: Okay, so Cory has had a podcast for a long time and you can find ⁓ lots of information already on that from him. But Cory, we just wanted to have a conversation with you today. Can you share a little bit with us about yourself, anything else you wanna add? And then we'll jump into our topic.
Dr Corey Allan: I mean, the only other real accomplishment, I would call it in some ways, is have been married to the same woman for 33 years now. So that's, I find that more and more of an anomaly, in the world. We got married young. I mean, and for the most part, our running joke whenever I get a chance to speak is we've been married for 33 years and for 29 of them have been pretty good. So.
Jackie Aston: Yes. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: The others were really, really dicey. But we see it as a process and a progress we're making. We don't ever arrive someplace. So it's constantly an evolving thing.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.
Catherine Roebuck: Those are pretty good ratios, actually. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, I'm not complaining about it at all. And I attribute a lot of this because I've been in the field and met David Schnarsh and the training with him. been practicing for 25 years now almost. And that's changed my life, not just my profession. So it completely changed how I view marriage and how we do marriage.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: My wife has been on board from the very beginning with as I started learning stuff, she started telling me about that and asking questions and we started going. We even went to some stuff with David and Ruth together and it was fantastic on how it changed us.
Jackie Aston: That's amazing. So when did you start with Dr. Schnarch? Like when did you start attending his trainings?
Dr Corey Allan: The very first time I was introduced to him was in grad school and then my first training was probably around 2005 or so. I mean, I was just finishing up grad school and he did a two day ⁓ constructing, ⁓ deconstructing affairs in the crucible. I think was probably one of his first ones I went to. And I'm like, I'm in, I'm seeing clients with this already. Let's go.
Jackie Aston: ⁓ wow, okay.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm. Nice.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: Soon as I read his work and saw him work, it's like, this just makes complete sense to me. This is just a good way to look at life.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Well, that's great. Well, that's actually that that training is seems applicable to our topic today. Affairs and fidelity. So what do you think? Just thinking about some actually, let pause there. How do you take a differentiation based approach to dealing with infidelity? Because I think there a lot of ideas about infidelity, what causes it, and there's a lot of pain and hurt and our audience, we're trying to give them an idea about being a more solid person and how to deal with conflict. an infidelity is not only conflict, but it's a lot of trust that's broken, a lot of hurt.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, and I think one of the things just to kind of start the conversation, I've been very interested in you guys' perspective too, because I realize ⁓ there's a variety of nuances even when we all have similar trainings, because I've met you ladies through a lot of the different Schnarch world as well. ⁓ But oftentimes I think of infidelity and betrayals, they're symptoms of something that was already present. It's not the key factor at play here. And most people ⁓ come in seeking therapy, thinking that's what we need to fix rather than, wait, there's something else that was there prior that is a part of this dynamic, not that it was, and this is one thing I'd be very careful about.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: on how it's worded because sometimes we hear what we want to hear and then we don't hear anything else. And a lot of times I think it's when people think of it as wait, it's not that I caused something because of the state of my marriage ahead of time, but the state of my marriage was a factor in what choices were made. And so.
Jackie Aston: Yeah. Mm.
Dr Corey Allan: It's starting to separate that out between both spouses on who's responsible for themselves in what ways in the dynamic that's created. And when you can start getting underneath it to that level, then you have something you can build that's completely different. But if you get couples that come in and all I want is I just want to heal from this betrayal and I want to be able to trust them again, that's the wrong question in my mind. That's a factor, but that's not the primary thing at play here.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. That's interesting, because I do hear people talk about wanting to get kind of back to how things were before the affair. And that's not a great idea, because the way things were before the affair had the conditions for an affair to happen, right? So, yeah.
Jackie Aston: Interesting,
Dr Corey Allan: Right? Yep. Yeah. And one of the things, this is one of the things I picked up from David right off the bat that I think that kind of hooked me into, okay, this has a lot more meat to it and it's a lot more nuanced. He had, I don't remember where the article I saw it was, but there was a little cutout. on it and it stood out to me because I was hearing this all the time with clients I was working with that had infidelity as their primary reason they were seeking therapy was the betrayed spouse being able in a state of being able to say I can't believe you did this to me right and it's almost an accusatory you intentionally did this just to hurt me I mean and it's a reactionary
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: ⁓ They're spiraling, they're reeling, they're in pain, the ground is gone for them in some ways. And so you can understand, you're just clinging for anything to try to make sense. But he took the stance of, what exactly did they do to you? Because you weren't involved, right? And being one that has had an emotional betrayal in my marriage five years in, ⁓
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm, interesting.
Dr Corey Allan: I did not evolve into that with a how can I stick it to my wife? I mean, that was not at all ever a thought process. It was more how do you got to separate it out? And when you can use something like that as a as an in, you can start to separate it out to okay, wait, they didn't actually do anything to you. They did something to themselves. So now how do you separate out how you relate to somebody that's shown what they're capable of? And then how do you also create an opportunity to see, to let them see what are they capable of? Because I use it in my own mindset in my own life of I never thought I'd be capable of what I chose. But now that I have chosen what I chose five years into marriage, I know what I'm capable of. So.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: And I also know what I'm capable of on building something beyond that. And so it's just the nuance is where our hurt and our pain doesn't allow us to really investigate and settle as well and grow more because we often just want the pain to go away. And that's where I think a lot of times approaches fall short on dealing with what really needs to get dealt with because it's not just the betrayed spouse that needs to be fixed.
Jackie Aston: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. What? Yeah. Why do you think that the partner who's been hurt takes that stance of, did this to me? Like, what is that about?
Dr Corey Allan: right, or the betrayer that needs to be fixed. It's both.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Well, think a lot of it's based on a ⁓ more fused mindset anyway of you belong to me. I get my identity through you. I get my worth through us. I get a value through the role I play with you, which in and of themselves aren't necessarily wrong. But when we dial it too far, we completely lose ourself. And so I lose perspective. I overreact. I don't function well when somebody doesn't operate the way I want them to operate. And well, welcome to marriage. You know, my wife's going to come home tonight and I guarantee you she's not going to be in the mood I want her to be in. She'll be in the mood she's in. Right. And so it's just OK. That's the reality of living life with somebody else. And how do I see that as there's nothing broken here?
Catherine Roebuck: you
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: It's just part of the process and that's part of the dynamic. I think that we come into marriage with this fused mindset or this you complete me quoting the worst movie line in Jerry Maguire ever. And it's like it's that kind of concept is the Hollywoodization hall marketization of we will create this great thing together because of whatever and it's like, well, you can but it's not at the expense of self. It's at it's at a choice of both.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Because you're talking about separateness and two people having their own identity, their own separate selves. I also think that that position of saying you did this to me, it's just so much easier to hand over the problem to your partner. And it's understandable, especially if you've been hurt to want to do that. And what they did, you know, it was pretty impactful to the relationship. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: But think that is a way for the couple to move away from what they need to work on together.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, because we get over reactionary in these when our hurt kicks in, man, we can burn a house down quickly and not even realize we're doing it, right? And it's that idea of, I don't think I can ever trust you again. And then I'm always quick to, okay, wait, to mean what, right? Trust to do what? Because we will blanketly throw these things around.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: And it's like, you'll still allow. Let's just use the example of him. He was the betrayer. You'll still allow him to care for your children. So you trust him. You trust him to be a good father and you trust him to still go to work and you trust him to, you know, some of these things. you can't, you always have to dig deeper into. You can't just be. If you keep the blanket reaction, then it puts it all on his shoulders to help you feel better.
Jackie Aston: Yes.
Dr Corey Allan: And that's an impossible equation.
Catherine Roebuck: So how are you putting these two things together of the betraying spouse didn't do anything to the betrayed spouse and then using those terms because even saying like the betrayed spouse seems to me to have built into it this idea that something was done to them. So how are you thinking about that?
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. So then like what's on their shoulders? If if what are they what are they really facing? Is that kind of what you're asking?
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah, it's this idea that, I mean, you said David framed it as like, first of all, they didn't do anything to you. But then these are, I think, terms that he used of like the betrayed, or I think he said the resolute spouse and
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, the resolutes vows is one of the phrases that kind of helps separate it out of they aren't the ones that strayed. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So like is betrayal something that your spouse does to you? That's the question, I guess.
Dr Corey Allan: I think of it in terms of it's not something they do to you. It's collateral damage you have to face though of something they have done to the system and to themselves. Because there's there's other things going on here as well, right? Because I mean, even if you take Esther Perel's work of how happy people she has discovered do cheat, right? It's not because somebody was just unhappy and they weren't getting what they wanted in a marriage. And that was the reason why they they strayed.
Catherine Roebuck: Okay.
Jackie Aston: Mm-mm-mm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: which would lead towards this belief that if we can just get what I want in the marriage, I won't stray, which that's just not true. So how do you settle yourself down knowing I'm in a relationship with somebody that's not safe? And that's not the question we ask very often. And that's the stuff that gets blown completely wide open when there's a betrayal.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: or when there's any kind of lie about something or any, because again, this is where you start to get into the nuance. I you ladies, you ladies are in the field. A lot of what I'll see with clients where there's betrayal that's happened, there's an element of, if it would have just come clean right at the very beginning, like it wasn't discovered, it was actually brought forward. There's a different healing path then because...
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: What really wreaks the most havoc in marriages is the lying and the denials of everything.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: It's not the fact that you went and slept with somebody else or got involved in a relationship in some level with somebody else. That's still destructive and painful. Yes. But the fact that you tried to hide it from me, like I'm an idiot, like I like I don't know something's going on, even though I don't know what it is. And so it's that there's the nuance where I think most therapy needs to rest and land, not on.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Okay, how are you just more upfront about what you want? How are you better at communicating what you want? How do we have a contract that says this will never happen again? Actually had a client came to me that they went to another therapist and said, we're going to have a no affair contract. I'm like, isn't that what the marriage was going in? I mean, maybe I'm wrong in the way I view what marriage is, but it's like, it's already been on all, it's already been voided. So, right. Let's talk about both of us just being respectable humans.
Jackie Aston: Yes.
Catherine Roebuck: You
Jackie Aston: Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: You tried that one, yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: And what do I want to do as I see me conducting myself in this relationship? How am I earning my own self-respect? And so for the one that's the resolute spouse, it's helping them in a lot of ways, and this is way David framed it, I think that's really helpful. It made them the wild card if they can really get a hold of themselves better. Now, if you don't need to earn me back, right? This is not about that. You don't need to soften this for me. I've got to deal with what just happened because she does. She's got to deal with the turmoil, the hurt, the lie, all of it. She's going to have to face that. But when she can settle herself down enough to actually be in a position to truly take the risk of he'll choose me or he won't.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: That puts a tremendous pressure on him to get his act together on who does he wanna be in this relationship and as a person in life. How does he wanna conduct himself? And that's a propelling both members forward, not getting stuck over this thing that how do we resolve this? How do I make sure it doesn't ever happen again? How do I get find the best tracker?
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: information. How do I know your codes to all your phones and all the stuff that you know everything which transparency could be a part of the factor. I'll agree with that of there can be benefit to that but it's not a long-term solution because none of us need to live under 100 you know non-stop surveillance.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, you know... And I think, I mean, that's exhausting for the couple. It's like it creates this hypervigilance and it's like, I'm monitoring you. That's also not sexy. And, you know, so I think it takes up a lot of emotional space for people who say, show me your phone. Let me look through your phone. Let me know where you are. And it's, do you really want to monitor your husband or wife? Like their child? And that's even, they go beyond that because they wouldn't be doing that with their kid.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Bye.
Jackie Aston: all the time if that was like a healthy parent-child dynamic. And so I think that doesn't help, but definitely transparency. And so we could talk about what that is. But I think it's really hard for the resolute spouse who feels that it's so personal to them. And so it's like, you don't care about me. I don't matter enough for you not to do this.
Dr Corey Allan: What's that?
Jackie Aston: And I think that's really hard to talk, like when I talk about this with clients who have that idea, it's like, it feels so personal, but that taking it personally is just like, gets in the way of moving forward. So how do you deal with that, Corey?
Dr Corey Allan: Well, so a lot of times and it's a pithy statement, so it's easy to say and it's incredibly hard to do. I will acknowledge this upfront. It's the idea of I think a lot of times in life I get better when I can be better at not taking things in my marriage so personally I can actually be more personal in my marriage.
Jackie Aston: Yeah, yes.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Because when I take things personally, like as if my wife acts a certain way and I think it's a personal affront to me and an attack to me, and there could be absolute nuance in there that it is. Because sometimes we are very, very good assassins in our own relationships. ⁓ And I know exactly what I'm doing.
Jackie Aston: Yes, yes. Yes.
Dr Corey Allan: But for the most part, I believe, ⁓ you know, I'm not near as important as my, in my wife's life, as I'd like to think I am in her life. She is important in her life. She's the primary of her life and all that she's got going on. So when I can see it as I separate myself to get a different perspective of, well, this wasn't an intentional thing to just destroy me.
Jackie Aston: Mm.
Dr Corey Allan: This was something that did fall on me and I have to deal with, but it wasn't an egregious. How can I really get them today? Cause if that's the case, then we got other things you need to be talking about. And usually it's an exit strategy. ⁓ but.
Jackie Aston: Yeah. Yeah. You know what I think is often helpful is when the partner who the resolutes spouse sees that, yes, they contributed to the dynamic, but they see that their partner is willing to hide. The partner is ⁓ understanding more about what the affair is about, the infidelity is about. That's really helpful because it's not about them. I mean, yes, there are issues probably in the relationship.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: but it's the fact that sometimes the person who cheats is escaping from real life problems and stress, or sometimes that person is bored and is looking for something else exciting and sort of like a way to get away from the routine. And so it's not really about them, even though it does impact them. And so I think it can be helpful when in the couple's work for the resolute spouse,
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: to see and understand what the infidelity is about so they don't take it so personally. It's still not the easiest thing not to take it personally, but if you understand what's going on with the person.
Dr Corey Allan: Absolutely. It's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly difficult to deal with the depths of what we're required to face in marriage as an adult. ⁓ For both spouses to do this, to do that. It's so hard to do because it all has impact, direct impact. When I wanted to explain, this is the thing I've loved exploring more of Esther Perel's work and seeing how she helps create a container.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: that allows both spouses to confront themselves in some ways within the presence of each other. I Schnarch did this as well, but it's that same kind of concept of a lot of times the whole focus is on who got hurt. That's where everything needs to rest and reside when I'm hanging on. If the person that betrayed. really recognized, wait a second, what was that really about for me? What, what, what was, what am I really facing in this marriage and in my own life and who I am and who I want to be? There's work they need to do. And oftentimes there's not room for that.
Jackie Aston: Can you talk about that? Can you talk about that more specifically? So how someone navigates that who ⁓ has not been honest, who has had an emotional or physical relationship outside of their marriage, where that's not been like, okay, that's not been what the agreement is.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, a lot of times you're talking about somebody that, I mean, you were hinting at it a little bit already, Jackie, of maybe they are trying to escape from things and that's just been the easy way to do it. As weird as that sounds. Because I found somebody that understands me and well, it's all illusionary, right? Every single relationship you start with is just everybody's PR departments.
Jackie Aston: Mm-mm. Yes, yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: And so it's not legit. It's not a real relationship. You haven't met the back office yet. So if you leave a relationship because one seems ideal, well, it's not going to be ideal in time. That's just the way it's going to go. So there could be an element of that. Well, I finally got somebody that listens to me, but that's not real. They're not really listening to you. They're just a good reflection back. If you like what you're getting back, they're not actually being honest themselves either. They're caught in, right. They're caught in la la land as well. Yep. Both of you are just pie in the sky, chemically induced high in your brain because of a new relationship and the taboo of it or the risk of it. There can also be an element you alluded to of, want some, I'm kind of bored. And so this seems the way to bring some variety. Well, what is it that makes me to where I don't have the courage to bring that to my spouse?
Jackie Aston: Okay, so you're talking about validation. That's like one of the things that feels good. It's like very complimentary. Okay.
Dr Corey Allan: to just say, I'm kind of bored. And it's not just be sexually. Cause a lot of times I think there's affairs that have nothing to do with the sex. It's the emotional, it's the relational, it's everything. It's the shared journey, it's the whatever, which still are falling short of really being known. And I think that's what we're all striving for. I am, of how am I willing to take the risk of really being known in the relationships in my life?
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: ⁓ huh.
Dr Corey Allan: which means I'm gonna uncover and share parts of me that my wife's not gonna necessarily applaud at first glance, right? Because it's always unilateral. I mean, I use the joke on Sexy Marriage Radio all the time of if to me I've got this huge dream of I just wanna have sex on our roof, which in Texas in August, no, you can't do that, it's too dangerous. But other times of the year, maybe so. But if that's my dream, well, when I bring that up to her, It's not very likely she's going to be I've just been so waiting for you to say that I can't wait. Let's do it. It's it's likely going to be why in the world you want to do that and that's that's not what I get when I get a good reflected relationship going. I get that that sounds great. I've always wanted to do that too. You know, I get all that stuff when I don't know if they're telling me the truth or not. And that's the I mean to me the crux of where most marriages actually are is there.
Jackie Aston: Thank
Dr Corey Allan: is they both play the proper role for what they perceive rather than, okay, that freaks me out a little bit. But I also hear what you're saying because that's a different kind of an adult move in some ways. I like I could kind of understand the nuance of that. But but shingles do nothing for me, babe. Right. So so especially in the summer and then in the winter because it's cold. No. But but it's just that element of revealing myself.
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Especially in the summer. Ha ha ha.
Dr Corey Allan: means I take a risk that it's not going to be received well. But I don't ever get an opportunity often in marriage where I have an assurance it will be received well. I have to just take the risk.
Jackie Aston: Yes, but you're trying to be real and you also want someone who's going to be real back, but hopefully decent about it. You just don't guarantee that. You just can't say that.
Dr Corey Allan: Well, true. And it's also that element of, want them to be real back in accordance with my real, not in accordance with where their real actually is. Right. Because there's an element I've actually worked with a couple from years ago that he wanted to open up the marriage and she did it. And, and it was like, okay, we got some serious, we've got a serious gridlock issue here and
Jackie Aston: Okay, yep, yep.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: He was even wanting her to help him get ready for the night he would go out. And he was going to head to another club and pick somebody up. And so as we're talking, it didn't finally click with her. Because she did not want to give up the marriage. She did not want to give up him. But she for sure wasn't going to do that. But she couldn't find where is the spot. Because what she's being pressed to do
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: is something she don't want to do. And most of us don't ever actually ask ourselves the questions of what length will I go? Right? Where do I actually need to stand for my own integrity and my own respect of who I want to be? Because that's a developmental differentiated move. I'm like, you know what, honey, if you want to keep cheating, I'm not trying to stop you.
Catherine Roebuck: So.
Dr Corey Allan: But I won't be here when you get back and that's kind of where she was like if you're going to do this, I'm not home. When you're getting ready and when you come back, I'm not here that night. I don't know if that means I'm gone forever. But I'm not there and that was the move that was big enough for him to go. Can wait, I don't know if I want to risk that much yet. Because she's serious and that put it back on both shoulders to actually have to act in line with who they want to be. Who are they?
Jackie Aston: Yeah, that's more solid.
Dr Corey Allan: And I think that's the way to look at what marriage requires of us all the time.
Catherine Roebuck: Okay, so you're saying that if you take what your spouse does less personally, then you're able to be more personal. Is this what you mean of just like revealing more of yourself, being more real?
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, and being able to stand for what I really believe and willing to go to the mat for. Regardless, the cost, well, regardless, I don't like that word, knowing the cost is the better of like, look, because that's the whole thing of if you guys worked with couples where there's been habitual affairs and it's like, at what point is too many? Right, because some people will just like, well, but and we convince ourselves rather than hang on.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: What do you need to do that really is facing the reality of what's going on? Because I think too often we want to alter our realities rather than how do I face who this person actually is and who I actually am in this. Because if I, and it has to be probably in reverse order of who am I?
Jackie Aston: Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: in this dynamic and how I've tolerated, allowed, not spoken up about, just erupted about and hope that would be enough or what, you all these different patterns I've got rather than, mean, I look back at my wife, what shifted it for me, oddly enough, because I really, I don't know how I was so naive at 27, but I was a 27 year old teenager at this time. She gave me the ring back. And she's like, if things don't change, this is done. And I never believed she would do that. Honestly, I mean, I never believed it, even knowing what I had done. I never believed she'd go. And when she did, I was like, hang on. Give me a moment to let me get my life in order because I got to. And then this isn't over as far as I'm concerned either, but. And that kind of shifted me into a different path is where I am now of like, wait, that was a huge wake one of many huge wake up calls in that journey of like, okay, I've got to face some things in me because my wife had the courage to risk it. Of like, I'm not going to settle for this. And if that means I got to be the bad guy and leave, I'll do it. And I think that's a lot of times we don't really have the honest. Not that I have to go do it, but I don't have the honest work to decide what would I do.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. That's a big deal. I appreciate you sharing that because I think you could track in her that she was serious. And ⁓ we're talking about how both people are part of this dynamic of the infidelity happening. Again, it's not, there's issues going on that need to be addressed. And so your wife essentially was saying, you know, I'm not going to participate in this and close my eyes to it or make excuses for you.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.
Jackie Aston: and you had pressure. Otherwise you would have been like, well, she's going to be around here forever. So you kind of do what, you know, have it my way.
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. I just need to get better not getting caught if I choose to do it again. Although I didn't get caught. came clean because it was I hit a point of like, uh-uh, this is not who I am and ended what was starting and then a couple of days later it was like, ⁓ we need to talk babe because she knew she knew it. I mean she could tell the map. She's like what's going on? Like well funny you should ask and I didn't say it that way, but I was scared to death, but but it's still
Jackie Aston: Yeah, yes. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm
Jackie Aston: Yeah, that's good for you.
Dr Corey Allan: When we're paying attention, and this is the same thing, I think with couples where there's been betrayal that has gone on, outside of the one night stands, but even those, there's signals that we pick up, we just can't settle what it is in the system. you get an intuition, something has shifted, but I don't have the courage oftentimes to actually ask the harder question. But I get a sense something is off and I've yet to ever work with a couple where that has not been true. Where a couple comes in, I had no ideas. Okay, put a pin in that. I want to come back to that in a little bit. Once you get a little more settled, let's explore that because I don't think that's true. And that kind of gets their brain working a little different on what was it could have been? Well, you know, and then you kind of look back at, okay, I'm not shocked. I'm hurt.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm.
Jackie Aston: Mmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: But when I look at the whole landscape, OK, I can see. And that's the difference of that's also the same mechanism I believe we use to move forward. Because it's the difference between like you mentioned earlier, Jackie, of I'm just going to I want full transparency. I want tracking. I want check ins. I want you answer every single question honestly on all these different things when that's all fear based more and more than anything. But intuition will let me know. if something else is going on again. I'll figure it out because we are too stupid as human beings to hide things in a marriage. We just are. If either of us are waking up and paying attention, my spouse can't keep anything hidden from me. Well, you know what I mean.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm. That's what I think about in terms of healing too. It's you're talking about presence. So what is it like when I'm with this person? What do I notice? Like noticing the changes, noticing that someone is, ⁓ they're shifting in the dynamic as well. So the tracking is sort of like pseudo security of like, I know it's all good.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: even though it takes a hit to the marriage as well because it's just exhausting and it's a burden and it's a block from real connection. But it's like you're in the presence of your partner where you can track them and you're not gonna know everything. But I think.
Dr Corey Allan: No, and you don't need to. I mean, I think that's one of the myths we need to dispel is there are secrets in marriage. I mean, there are things in my life that my wife doesn't need to know. If she asked me, I'll tell her. But there are some things that have nothing to do with her, and she needs to be OK with that variance, just like I need to be OK with the variance of what she's got in her world. That's nothing to do with me.
Jackie Aston: Yes, yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: But you're putting forward this line of if she asks, you'll tell her. And so do you think there's room for secrets where your spouse asks and you still won't tell them?
Dr Corey Allan: I knew Kath, alright when I said it, I thought Catherine's going to jump on that one. ⁓ That's the way her mind goes. I've been privy to her mind for awhile now. ⁓ So I mean, obviously nuance and context would matter on everything because some of the stuff would be like. Well, if you really mean it might it might have a big impact. Right, because and again, most of these things I'm thinking of.
Catherine Roebuck: ⁓ I love these details. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: ⁓ She's good, yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: that where they're pretty minor. Obviously, if there's a bigger relational dynamic that's going to require quite a bit from me or from her that will have a bigger impact on either one of us, then yeah, that has that needs to be addressed by impact, not necessarily intent. And and so I think there's some nuance that's important in that. But I also try to just dispel the myth of I know everything about. No, you don't.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. You never will, yeah. No, another person's mind is a mystery, like to a great degree. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: You just don't need to. Yeah, you just don't need to. And I don't want to. It frees me up. I used to have this fear of, ⁓ like if Pam walked in the room and she's like, hey, I was just. Nah, nevermind. And then she walked off, because I think this is a human thing. We answer our own question, and we realize it was stupid to even ask in the first place. I used to have this reaction. What? What did you want? What did you... And I would go crazy in my mind of what were you wanting to ask me? Now I see this, good, one less thing I have to worry about on her mind. was like, fine, she'll handle what she needs to handle. I'll deal with whatever comes up. And it's just trying to separate us to have an appropriate healthy space.
Jackie Aston: See ya.
Dr Corey Allan: for each of us to have to handle ourselves.
Jackie Aston: think about with this. you're talking about these aren't like really big secrets. These aren't things that need to come to light that are dishonest. It's more of like, do you really need to know all of my thoughts? Some of them are, I'm pretty regressed, or I'm thinking things that aren't nice. I'm thinking things that aren't nice about you, or I'm distracted by somebody else. And I know that that's not helpful. I'm sort of escaping. And so it's more of like, it's not
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine Roebuck: you
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep.
Jackie Aston: helpful and we could say it's a similar thing to like the monitoring is like tell me every thought that you're having all the time and that's just that's too much it doesn't even make sense so I think that actually could hurt the relationship is this ⁓ and couples can do this where it's sort of confession about what is going on what thoughts they had how they interacted with somebody and I think again there's gonna people are gonna have to come forward if they've crossed certain lines
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: But it's more of each person needs to take care of themselves and get on top of what they need to get on top of and be honest with themselves, make the behavior change, get some support if they need it. But it's not the confession and it's not the let me tell you everything all the time. It's gonna interfere.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's it's built that that's built on the belief that if I could actually understand you, then our problem would go away when in reality, when my understanding of my wife is not that if I understand her, that doesn't take our problems away. She has a different view on things than I do. That's what's natural and normal and healthy, actually. And some of her problems I can do nothing about.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Jackie Aston: Let's see.
Dr Corey Allan: I mean, she's primary care for her mother in the season we're in right now. I she lived with us for a month. And now my wife is there almost every day where she's living. And she's got this tremendous guilt anytime her mom feels lonely and sad. And I can look and read and go, you're feeling guilty, aren't you? She's like, yeah, I'm like, there ain't nothing I can do about that.
Catherine Roebuck: Hmm.
Jackie Aston: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: I disagree with why she feels guilty because I don't. We've provided good safety. We've got good support for her. We've done what we can do as children. But she doesn't see it that way. Well, that's our problem and the difference. And that's not going away. Even when I understand her stance.
Jackie Aston: Yes.
Catherine Roebuck: One of the things that seems really difficult is when there's like a long time pattern where one person strays and then maybe they do couples counseling and they make some agreement, but then it happens again. And this pattern where someone keeps presenting like, I'm sorry, and I'm working through it, but then it continues to happen. How do you work with that?
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The first thing that came to my mind is some of the phrases I've actually said to couples that have had this where I've become the one of the therapists down the line, because they've tried a couple of others, well, they didn't work or whatever. And so I usually when I'll hear that kind of a pattern, I'll just look at, let's just, I'm going to pick on the guy again, I'll pick on my own kind as the one that's been the repeater. I'll just looking square in the eye and say, okay, so how many, what's your number then?
Jackie Aston: and how we do it.
Dr Corey Allan: What's number that's going to make you stop? What's that really? Because obviously, and I'm kind of doing it this way because I want her to see somebody confront him differently. Because obviously he's not sorry about something. And so as a guy, I can do that a little easier with other guys on just shoot straight. I'm like, OK, so when you hit five affairs, that's when you would stop.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Assuming she'd still be and just kind of present. Just shake it up a little bit on. Have you even thought about what you're doing and how it's landing? Because she isn't quite clear yet, and when she becomes clear, it's going to change the dynamic. But I got you gotta get one of them to really stand up. Or the system will just keep going the way it's going.
Catherine Roebuck: So what are you looking for as like indication that if somebody has done this a bunch of times, they keep presenting like they're sorry, you can tell they're not really sorry. But when you're working with them, what are you looking for as indication of something really has shifted in them?
Dr Corey Allan: Right. Typically, one of them would be a lot more settled in how they confront themselves within the dynamic of if it was the person that had played the card of, I'm sorry, it'll never happen again. All that. And then it happens again. Well, I'm sorry. It'll happen. And then they really do come in different on like, yeah, I'm I'm awful. I don't I don't you know, you kind of see yourself differently. I don't know I actually am sorry.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Right? That, okay, well, at least it's honest. Now we can start to do something. It's cold, but it's honest. Because again, I think the humanness in us, tell me if I'm wrong, ladies, even when it's really ugly, when it's honest, I can deal with that differently. Right? Like if you are just being completely cruel to me, and it's honest when you recognize it, I can deal with that differently.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Corey Allan: than if you're trying to soften it and act like it was a one-off and all these things. When it's like, no, it's, you cause then you start really dealing with what's really going on here. What really is the pattern for you? Cause the marriage isn't going to fix it. That's about them. That's not about the marriage.
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah. Yeah, and something I noticed. Yeah, so I noticed that people function way better when they're dealing with reality, even if it's terrible, even if it's ugly and scary and all of that. Like that's still better and your brain can handle it better and you can be more settled in contact with it than if you're dealing with some kind of pretty lie that you've put together.
Dr Corey Allan: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Yeah, because otherwise you're trying to deal with the masking that's happening of like, don't, know, our brains pick up, there's something else underneath that. And then we start spinning even more rather than, no, I just can't tell you. I just can't tell the truth. I just can't speak up. I won't even admit it to myself.
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: It's like multiple offenses. It's not just the affair. It's the, do I handle the fact that I had an affair and what am I doing to my partner and their mind about what I'm doing? So am I gonna twist it to make it seem like this was something else or say this really isn't who I am and what I'm doing? So I think then it's like, gets more complex and there's more pain and hurt and things to work through. ⁓
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep.
Jackie Aston: But I was going to say that I think in these dynamics where there's this ⁓ infidelity, the couple really, both people are pressured. You're having to see what it, to face their own integrity. I think that's what it's about. And we're talking about affairs, but this could be anything else. This could be how I'm handling my kids. This could be how I'm handling my work, ⁓ finances, how honest I am.
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: This is a charge topic for most people. So, you know, it can feel a little bit different, but I think it's all about integrity. And if you're working with a couple and you see that one partner is really just sort of asking for forgiveness, there's an integrity issue there about, and they're not really serious about doing anything. And so it's dealing with that person's integrity, which has a very big impact on how they're going to feel about themselves, even if they can sort of suppress
Dr Corey Allan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jackie Aston: the anxiety and the feelings that they have about themselves. And it's gonna have a big impact on their partner and their relationship. just, doesn't, think until the integrity issue is addressed, nothing really gets better.
Dr Corey Allan: Right. And that's where a lot of times, ⁓ sadly enough, the level of a couple's relationship with an infidelity that's happened is is the biggest crucible there is to help actually bring safety integrity will stand up or not. Because it's it's one of the you know, you can say it's one of the most egregious things that happen. But if you think about it, there's there's. all kinds of pseudo levels of betrayal throughout all of marriage. You said you were going to get milk on your way home and you didn't you betrayed me. It's right. Well, they're not necessarily wrong. It's a little bit harsh with the way we're spinning it a little but it's still it's an integrity thing of I said I'm going to do this and I didn't. So what do I do with that? Because that's where marriage has to also be built on a level of grace.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jackie Aston: Yes. Yes.
Dr Corey Allan: and on a level of love and a level of forgiveness. Because I one of my favorite phrases of Schnarch is, know, in marriage, we have to realize that there's an emotional terrorist and then there's our spouse to deal with too. Right. And, and that's the way we live of it's, it's, I don't recognize sometimes what is my spouse actually up against when they have to deal with me.
Catherine Roebuck: Right.
Jackie Aston: You
Dr Corey Allan: And if I use that as a phrase, man, it changes the trajectory of what I can create and what it can become together because I'm just trying to take care of my side of the equation and choose better.
Catherine Roebuck: And it's easy for the resolute spouse to point out the integrity issues on the strain partner side, but there's serious integrity issues on the side of the resolute spouse as well, where they're having a hard time holding onto their own values, their own commitments about what they will and won't put up with or go along with or their, you know, their
Dr Corey Allan: Right.
Catherine Roebuck: having this intuitive sense that something's off and then they're pushing that aside and they're not acting on it over and over. And so it can be just as difficult for the resolute partner to like confront themselves about how much have I known that I wasn't willing to directly address.
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep. Right. And if you can't settle down the resolute spouse enough, they won't ask themselves that question.
Catherine Roebuck: Mm-hmm.
Dr Corey Allan: Right, well, they won't confront themselves enough. And that's where it's trying to get the balance equal on both shoulders better in the therapeutic process to where both see, OK, wait, I've got to carry my weight and in my own life. And then I'll see what happens with the marriage, because that's that's also the kind of same concept of the marriage you have is done. Question is, do you want to create a new one together or not?
Catherine Roebuck: Yeah.
Jackie Aston: Well, thanks so much, Corey, for talking with us today and sharing your insights. I'm thinking that we'll hear about some of this in your book because you said one person, your ⁓ subtitle is One Person Can Shift the Relationship. And ⁓ so is there anything else you want to leave our audience with and remind us where we can find you or our audience can find you?
Dr Corey Allan: Yep. Yep. ⁓ Absolutely, no. So you can find me at smr.fm is the home on my online world that stands for Sexy Marriage Radio. It's a podcast that we have that's been going for over 15 years now almost. And we talk all things sex as the hook to talk about life is really the idea. New shows come out on Wednesday. My wife is my co-host. Then we have guests every so often as well. and I'm doing a lot more writing as well. But no, the only thing I would want to leave the audience with is just realizing that ⁓ regardless of what we are capable of, we are capable of really good things, right? That we can do negative and destructive things, but man, we can also build really good things in the same life with the same people. And it's just all about how I handle myself better.
Jackie Aston: Well, that's very encouraging. That's a great way to end. So thank you to our audience for joining us for differentiated love and sex, and we hope you join us next week.
Catherine Roebuck: That's awesome.
