Look Who’s Talking: Deep Thoughts About Talking Babies, Compulsory Heteronormativity, and Why Pregnant Women Are Public Property

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I had a realization years ago that the reason why people love babies is because you can project whatever you want onto the baby.
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I mean, yes, they're adorable.
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Yes, like there's all of that.
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But when you make up what they're saying in your head, it it's whatever fits your narrative.
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So, and that's part of what we love about babies and why people may like babies and not like kids, because kids have their own personalities.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And and why it's okay to hate teenagers.
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Yeah.
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Because, man, do they have their own personalities.
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Yeah.
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My sister, Emily Guy Birkin, no hyphen, is an overthinker.
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And my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, yes hyphen, is an overthinker.
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And we both love pop culture, a well-crafted story, and eminently quotable movie lines.
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Each week, with the help of Feminism, Our Super Smart Brains, and each other, we uncover the lessons lurking behind the nostalgia of our favorite comedies, dramas, science fiction, and horror.
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Because pop culture is still culture.
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And shouldn't you know what's in your head?
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I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
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On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1989 rom-com, Look Who's Talking, with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you.
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Let's dive in.
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So, Trace, I know you've seen it because we saw it in the theater together, but what's in your head about Look Who's Talking?
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I have just re-watched it.
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You have not seen it since whenever.
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Yeah, I I can't remember the last time I saw it, but definitely since we saw it in the theater together when it was new.
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But what what's in my head is uh Kirsti Ali as uh the mom.
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Her baby daddy is her boss, maybe.
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I don't know, some sort of corporate fancy dude who's married, I think.
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And Bruce Willis plays the voice of the baby.
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Actually, I think starts with the voice of a sperm and then becomes the voice of the baby.
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And John Travolta is a cab driver who baby Bruce Willis picks out to be his new dad, and that's the rom-com.
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So that's what's in my head about like the the rough plot outline.
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And funnily enough, one of the scenes that really stayed with me, I think from when we saw it when we were kids, is when Kiersey Alley goes to visit the baby daddy at his office and he's like dismissive and rude.
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And so she like puts a dirty diaper down on his super expensive desk.
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That like really stayed with me because it grossed me out so much.
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Yeah.
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So that's what's in my head about Look Who's Talking.
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But tell me, why are we talking about and and we're just talking about this first movie, right?
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Because there were, there was a franchise, like there's Look Who's Talking to TOO and it was like a sibling or something.
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I don't know if I ever saw that.
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Oh, yes, I did because Joan Rivers played the voice of the baby.
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No?
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That's that's uh at the very end of this in the days.
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They were not able to get Joan Rivers for the second talk.
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So it was Roseanne Barr.
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I see.
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Okay, well, obviously I didn't see it.
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Okay, but why are we talking about Look Who's Talking today?
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What's what's at stake for you, Em?
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So I really loved this movie, but one of my strongest memories was we went to see it in the theater.
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I was surprised to see it came out in 1989 because I thought I was younger than 10.
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But we we went to see it with our dad, who loved babies, loved kids, and was excited to see this movie with his two daughters.
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You would have been 13.
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And the very first scene is the egg being released down the fallopian tube.
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And, you know, we're watching that, and then it transitions, it's this great transition of uh the egg then to a lava lamp.
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It's the same colors.
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And I leaned over and asked, Dad, what what is that?
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And he went, I don't know.
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About the egg.
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About the egg.
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Uh-huh.
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I then remember several weeks later him telling our aunt and our grandmother about seeing this movie about how, oh, you know, it's it's it's babies, it's cute, you're gonna take your kids to it.
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And then there's something you have to explain at the very beginning.
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And I could have sworn I was younger than 10 because I would have thought a 10-year-old, like, I think by the time they show the sperm on screen, I knew what that was.
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But I I just I I remember our dad was so easily embarrassed.
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Yeah.
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And so did not want to talk about that kind of stuff with us.
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Well, and it's like the middle of the movie.
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So I get why he might not have wanted to like take the time to be like, oh, well, that's an ovum and like whatever.
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But why didn't he say, I'll tell you later?
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The claim he didn't know.
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And like I was I was thinking, like, it's entirely possible that you're as you're watching this, that you don't know, that he maybe didn't know what it was.
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Because it was just until the sperm should until the sperm showed up.
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And then at that point, he was not gonna be like, okay, so that was the egg.
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But I don't know.
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I don't know.
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But it just every time I see that movie, I am reminded of that moment of our dad, who was so prudish.
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In in many ways, it really was.
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Yeah.
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But I have like this this warm, fuzzy, even though that was not great parenting on dad's part.
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But the fact that he so wanted to share this movie with us because he really liked the idea of like a talking baby, which was new at the time.
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Like that was a new idea.
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Like it's definitely been done since then.
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Yeah, boss baby and all, yeah.
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But at the time it was, it was a like a relatively new idea.
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Um, and casting Bruce Willis as the voice was like a kind of stunt casting that was also very appealing and funny in a way that like Bruce Willis has comedic chops and has definitely done comedy.
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I mean, he got his start on Moonlighting, but the the idea of like Bruce Willis who was in Die Hard.
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Die Hard Baby's voice was kind of hilarious.
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Yeah.
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And and it's just, it's a, it's a light, funny, sunny movie that is just in a lot of ways, just very it's it's a nice way to spend a Saturday afternoon watching this movie, is is how it's always been in my head.
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But there's there's some stuff in there that's is worth examining and did not necessarily age well.
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And that I'm I'm thinking about, like, you know, I'm probably want to be thinking about this, you know, as 10-year-old me taking this in as normal and now like going, like, mm-mm, is that really how we want to do things?
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So it's not like there's a huge amount of at stake for me here, but it is like it is a movie that I definitely watched many, many, many times in my childhood.
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Uh that specific scene when she's changing the baby on the very expensive desk.
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He's like, that's a$10,000 desk.
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And she turns the diaper upside down and slams it on it.
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He's like, and now it's junk.
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So, and now it's junk is in my head.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That that scene really stayed with me.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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Well, you want to give me some postcards from the destination before we get a synopsis.
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So I want to talk about like compulsory heterosexuality and heteronormativity, which we have in part, like you can't escape that when you have an adult man voicing a baby.
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But there's also additional aspects of it that were definitely a choice.
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So I want to talk about that.
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I want to talk about like the intersection of pregnancy and feminism.
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Uh now, this this movie was written and directed by Amy Heckerling, who was also a director of Fast Times at Ridgemont High and Clueless.
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So there's there's the film is definitely from a woman's point of view, and there's a lot in there that I think is wonderful for that reason and and groundbreaking.
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But there's also some kind of regressive stuff in there as well, in part because it's a it's a product of its time.
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It's a 37-year-old movie.
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I want to talk about class differences.
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Yeah, because baby daddy was like a executive, but John Travolta is a cab driver.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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I want to talk about how women continue to be public property when they're pregnant.
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I want to talk about like parenting expectations and then beauty standards and uh and and weight.
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And then there something that I noticed is um just the changes in safety expectations for babies from about 40 years ago to now, which that gets into deeper societal issues in addition to just improved technology.
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But that is something that I think is an important thing to talk about.
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So let me give you a kind of a nickel tour of this of the story.
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So we meet Molly, played by Kirsti Ali.
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She is an accountant.
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And her one of her biggest clients is Albert, played by George Segal.
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Molly and Albert are having an affair.
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Albert is married to Beth, and he is doing the very typical, like, I will divorce her soon.
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I will divorce her soon.
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He has two kids, two daughters, uh, who are about nine and eleven.
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And uh Molly gets pregnant.
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When she finds out, she's kind of horrified.
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Like uh her doctor's like, I take it this wasn't planned.
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And she said, this wasn't even a planned affair.
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She decides to have the baby and she tells everyone that she, because she is 33, that she decided to be artificially inseminated because her doctor actually says to her, Your biological clock is ticking.
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Albert has promised he's going to leave Beth and they will be together.
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And she's about nine months along.
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She runs into him in a store, like in a changing room, uh, canoodling with another woman who is not his wife.
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So another and another woman.
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And he tells her he left his wife for that other woman.
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Oh, I didn't remember that.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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He finally got his own apartment when he was with that other woman, and he tells her, I'm going through a selfish phase.
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And the stress of this causes her to go into labor.
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And as you remember, she hails a cab and it's driven by John Travolta, who takes the it's very seriously that he needs to get her to the hospital really quickly.
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And it's this kind of ridiculous scene of like driving through fruit carts and things like that.
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And she tells him the first part of labor can take hours.
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He's like, so can midtown traffic.
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This is all taking place in New York City, by the way.
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So James is the name of John Travolta's character.
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James helps her into the hospital and he is mistaken for the baby's father.
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And so he ends up observing the birth and actually getting her drugs when uh when she is asking for them because the nurse won't do it.
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So he goes running and finds a doctor who can give her some medication.
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After the baby's born, she she takes him home.
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She had left her purse in the taxi.
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So James comes to her apartment to return it to her.
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He then asks a little bit about how long she's lived in the apartment because she lives in Manhattan.
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He does that because he has a grandfather who needs to move to a different nursing home.
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And so he uses her apartment to establish residency for himself and claims that he lives there.
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Uh, she discovers that and is very angry at him.
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And he suggests a trade that um if she lets him establish residency in her place, he will babysit baby Mikey, who's played by multiple babies but voiced by Bruce Willis.
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Over time, James uh first he falls falls for the baby because he's adorable and also ends up falling for Molly.
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Molly is dating other men, auditioning to try to find Mikey a father, is the way that she puts it.
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And everyone she dates is awful for one reason or another.
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Molly's office tells her that she needs to go back to being the accountant for Albert because he's one of their biggest clients, and she transferred him to another accountant.
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And her boss says, Albert's company needs you, you need to go right now.
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So that's how Albert gets back into her life.
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She reluctantly shows him a picture of Mikey, and he says he's gonna come over to see uh the baby.
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There's a mix-up.
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He shows up when James is there and they get into like an altercation.
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She takes Mikey to meet Albert, and Albert is just dick.
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He's just a complete dick.
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And so that's what you remember about changing the diaper.
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Later that day, Molly gets a call from the nursing home.
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There's something wrong with Grandpa Vince.
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And so she goes and gets that worked out.
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James also shows up and hears uh her fixing things for his grandfather, even though she doesn't actually have any relationship with him.
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Meanwhile, Mikey has been left with the grandfather, and there's an orderly there who is like, oh, I'll keep an eye on him, it'll be okay.
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But the orderly leaves and then Mikey wanders off because the grandfather clearly has Alzheimer's or something like that.
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And so there's a ridiculous chase scene where the baby gets into a car that's being towed and thinks he's driving, and they they run after him and end up finding him.
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There is a very, very bad, and I think intentionally bad, like model of a baby, like uncanny valley of a baby in traffic that they then rescue.
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And I actually feel like it was intentional to make it clear like we never would have put any child in any.
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No babies were harmed in the making of this film.
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Yeah.
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And then they they rescue Mikey, and Mikey gets the two of them once they're together, the the the baby, not Bruce Willis, says Dada.
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And uh that's when Molly realizes like James is is the person who should be Mikey's dad.
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And then it ends with James bringing Mikey to meet his new little sister Julie, who is voiced by John Rivers.
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John Rivers.
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And then that's the end of the film.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So tell me, where where do you want to start with your analysis here?
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Uh I want to start with how women are public property.
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Pregnant women are public property.
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It is something that I experienced very much with both of my pregnancies.
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I'm sure you experienced it.
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Yeah.
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And it's people who would never touch me felt entitled to touch my big belly without asking.
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It was when I was pregnant with my eldest, so this was now 16 years ago, my spouse and I went to a Cubs game.
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And it would have been, I probably was about six or seven months along.
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So definitely visibly pregnant.
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And the woman in the seat in front of me turned around and was talking to me about breastfeeding and how important it was for me to do that.
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And it was just like, this is not your business.
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Yeah.
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Excuse me, who are you?
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Back off.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So we see Molly experience this.
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So Albert, she comes to see him and she's eating because she's at that stage where like you're just you cannot get enough food.
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Yeah.
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And uh Albert says, like, you know, you need to watch your weight.
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You know, Beth only gained 21 pounds with each of our kids.
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They've also established that Beth is bulimic.
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Oh.
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And Molly responds, like, my doctor says my weight is fine.
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That kind of policing.
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Policing of women's pregnant bodies is it feels so real.
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Amy Heckerling wrote this because her own daughter, Molly, who she named the character after and spells it the same way, because it's an I.E.
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Molly, had been born like I think 86 or so, maybe, maybe a little bit later.
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But during that time, they were like narrating things on Molly's behalf as a tiny baby, as people do.
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And she's like, okay, yes.
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Yeah.
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And so it's very clear that she has been through that situation of like my body is public property right here.
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Yeah.
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Somehow bodily autonomy is lost.
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Pregnant women's bodily autonomy is non-existent.
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And pregnant women are expected to just be serene about it and receive it with grace and even gratitude.
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Yeah.
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Like, oh, it's so great that you want to touch my belly.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Aren't aren't aren't I wonderful?
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Of course, everyone wants to touch me.
00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:28.150
And the that sense of you don't get a say.
00:17:28.390 --> 00:17:36.149
So when she is in labor and James is driving her to the hospital, he's telling her to breathe and, you know, remember your lamas.
00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:38.069
And she has quit Lama's.
00:17:38.549 --> 00:17:41.829
And she she was like, not that it's any of your business, but I quit Lamas.
00:17:42.069 --> 00:17:44.230
And he's like, oh my God, it's so much better for the baby.
00:17:44.389 --> 00:17:49.430
And it's like, would you turn around and focus on the road, sir?
00:17:49.589 --> 00:17:50.389
You've got your job.
00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:51.509
I've got mine.
00:17:52.230 --> 00:17:52.710
Yeah.
00:17:52.950 --> 00:17:59.509
And so, in some ways, I feel like the film does a really good job of showing how impossible it is for women.
00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:07.029
And in other ways, it felt like there was a little bit of shaming of Molly because she does end up with James.
00:18:09.109 --> 00:18:14.789
It's a sticky wicket there because I felt very seen.
00:18:14.869 --> 00:18:30.950
And at the same time, I also really wished it was a little more clear that Molly has every right to request drugs, that she has every right to reject Lamas, that this is her body, her pregnancy journey, her labor.
00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:51.349
And that no one, especially no one with a penis, has a right to tell her anything about how she's handling her pregnancy, other than possibly her doctor, who also, by the way, says to her with a twinkle in his eye, remember, your biological clock is ticking.
00:18:51.669 --> 00:18:58.869
Which I can remember that annoying me, even as like a young teen watching it.
00:18:59.669 --> 00:19:12.309
And that's another aspect of it where I feel like Heckerling was reflecting what what was real at the time, rather than her making any commentary on it.
00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:14.629
Because we still get that bullshit.
00:19:14.710 --> 00:19:18.309
I mean, if you are over 35, you're a geriatric pregnancy.
00:19:18.629 --> 00:19:19.190
Oh, I know.
00:19:19.349 --> 00:19:21.029
I was 36 when my daughter was born.
00:19:21.109 --> 00:19:24.710
And yeah, I was I was referred to as a geriatric pregnancy.
00:19:25.190 --> 00:19:33.029
And I I I comprehend that that is a medical term, but I mean the other phrase they use is advanced maternal age.
00:19:33.349 --> 00:19:33.990
Yeah.
00:19:34.389 --> 00:19:37.909
So, like, can we just say pregnancy after 35?
00:19:38.069 --> 00:19:38.710
Yeah.
00:19:39.750 --> 00:19:41.349
Not that many more syllables.
00:19:43.990 --> 00:19:47.190
I mean, it's one more syllable than geriatric.
00:19:47.430 --> 00:19:47.829
Yeah.
00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:48.309
Yeah.
00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:51.190
I mean, I really don't think that there's any problem with that.
00:19:51.349 --> 00:19:59.190
But no, we have to shame women for how dare you wait too long this age before you have a baby.
00:19:59.430 --> 00:19:59.669
Yeah.
00:19:59.750 --> 00:19:59.909
Yeah.
00:20:00.069 --> 00:20:01.430
Shame, shame, shame.
00:20:02.149 --> 00:20:12.869
I I think that the mom shaming that you and I lived through came well after 89 in the mode of delivery.
00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:20.230
But I think what is clear from this film is that the mom shaming is very old.
00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:21.109
Oh gosh.
00:20:21.349 --> 00:20:22.470
It's not something new.
00:20:22.629 --> 00:20:26.629
You know, the it's so much better for the baby and all those, you know, all of the things.
00:20:26.789 --> 00:20:27.909
Like, yeah, okay.
00:20:28.069 --> 00:20:35.589
And you have to make the choice that works for you and your family and your kid and your body and your, you know, all the things.
00:20:35.909 --> 00:20:43.509
But the that I mean, the mom shaming from social media that you and I lived through, Molly doesn't have.
00:20:43.669 --> 00:20:45.589
But that doesn't mean she didn't have mom shaming.
00:20:45.909 --> 00:20:46.710
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:52.149
And in fact, I mentioned about how changes in safety expectations for babies.
00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:52.710
Mm-hmm.
00:20:54.230 --> 00:21:01.029
So when we were kids, moms, I feel like were more likely to be shamed if they were overprotective.
00:21:02.789 --> 00:21:12.230
And we see that a bit when James first comes to her apartment when she's like two days postpartum to bring him the uh the purse that she left.
00:21:12.629 --> 00:21:21.190
He comes in, he's got a cigarette behind his ear, and he takes it and he he lights it in front of a newborn.
00:21:22.389 --> 00:21:26.950
And she like pulls it out of his mouth and says, Don't smoke that in front of my baby.
00:21:27.109 --> 00:21:38.549
And she has the statistics of cancer from secondhand smoke and is like waving and like that right there, like I had forgotten that part.
00:21:39.509 --> 00:21:41.750
I'm sorry, he is off.
00:21:42.230 --> 00:21:50.389
Like he may never be around my child, but he acts as if she's being overprotective and ridiculous.
00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:52.710
He's like rolling his eyes at the baby.
00:21:53.029 --> 00:21:57.029
Meanwhile, he's the one who was like, Lama's is so much better for the baby.
00:21:57.349 --> 00:21:57.990
Yes.
00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:03.349
There's another point where they're talking about him babysitting.
00:22:03.430 --> 00:22:05.430
It's when they first established that.
00:22:05.829 --> 00:22:09.430
And she is like dead on her feet, and they're sitting at the table.
00:22:09.669 --> 00:22:16.069
The baby's in one of those like baby chairs on the table that also was a car seat that, oh my God, it looked so unsafe.
00:22:16.309 --> 00:22:20.470
And he actually they set up the car seat in the front seat forward facing.
00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:21.430
Like, oh god.
00:22:21.669 --> 00:22:24.710
I was I was having heart palpitations.
00:22:25.029 --> 00:22:30.629
And so she She is like at the table and they're talking and she falls asleep.
00:22:30.789 --> 00:22:33.430
And so he's like, let's let your mom have some time.
00:22:33.589 --> 00:22:36.309
He carries her into the bedroom and puts her in bed and she doesn't wake up.
00:22:36.389 --> 00:22:42.389
And then he takes Mikey and he goes, goes to, he's uh actually a flight instructor.
00:22:42.789 --> 00:22:45.509
He is only a taxi driver to pay the bills.
00:22:45.669 --> 00:22:48.869
And so he goes to his airport and takes the baby with him.
00:22:48.950 --> 00:22:50.549
He goes to see his grandfather.
00:22:50.789 --> 00:22:51.589
Oh my God.
00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:52.869
No note.
00:22:53.430 --> 00:22:54.549
Oh my God.
00:22:54.869 --> 00:22:56.389
No cell phones.
00:22:56.629 --> 00:22:57.750
Oh my God.
00:22:58.069 --> 00:23:00.629
So she wakes up and is just like, oh my God.
00:23:01.029 --> 00:23:01.750
And panics.
00:23:01.829 --> 00:23:02.069
Yeah.
00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:03.909
She calls 911.
00:23:04.069 --> 00:23:04.470
Yeah.
00:23:04.710 --> 00:23:07.430
And says, he might just be with an idiot.
00:23:07.669 --> 00:23:11.190
And then when he comes back, she she's like, oh my God, my baby.
00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:12.869
And she's like, you know, so glad to see him.
00:23:12.950 --> 00:23:14.309
And he's like, oh, it's so sweet.
00:23:14.389 --> 00:23:16.950
And then she starts, she clocks him.
00:23:17.109 --> 00:23:19.430
She hates him, like total.
00:23:19.589 --> 00:23:20.710
Like, of course.
00:23:20.869 --> 00:23:21.109
Yeah.
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:22.789
He kidnaps her baby.
00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:23.669
Yes.
00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:26.629
And he didn't even note.
00:23:27.029 --> 00:23:28.309
Yeah, that's the, yeah.
00:23:28.549 --> 00:23:29.990
And he's like, I was babysitting.
00:23:30.069 --> 00:23:32.549
And she's like, that means the baby stays and you sit.
00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:33.589
Yeah.
00:23:35.589 --> 00:23:41.190
But that is also kind of by the film and by James treated as her being like overprotective.
00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:43.190
Yeah.
00:23:43.669 --> 00:23:46.710
That's part of why I want to talk about changes in safety expectations.
00:23:46.789 --> 00:23:49.109
So some of it is like the car seats, we didn't know better.
00:23:49.269 --> 00:23:53.990
Like that's I don't even know if you and I had car seats in 76 and 79.
00:23:54.230 --> 00:23:55.190
Like we must have.
00:23:55.349 --> 00:23:55.909
I don't know.
00:23:56.309 --> 00:24:01.109
But whatever they were, they were not the marvels of engineering that we now have.
00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:01.909
Right.
00:24:02.549 --> 00:24:08.470
We did not know that babies needed to be facing backwards in the backseat for safety.
00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:09.430
We didn't know.
00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:15.750
So there's some aspects of that where that safety aspect is just like technology capsule.
00:24:15.909 --> 00:24:16.309
It's not approved.
00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:18.069
It's a time capsule.
00:24:18.789 --> 00:24:40.869
But then other aspects of safety expectations is if this movie were put out today, exactly the same, except that the, you know, uh like car seat was updated and things like that, Molly would be judged as a bad mother for allowing James to be near him because he smokes, because he takes the baby without letting her know.
00:24:41.509 --> 00:24:43.430
Like that's also a time capsule.
00:24:43.589 --> 00:24:57.589
And so the things that we shame Molly for, or the film shames Molly for in 1989, are the very things that we would judge her for not being overprotective enough.
00:24:59.829 --> 00:25:08.549
And even at the very end, after they've rescued him from being in traffic, he she's like, oh my God, he doesn't have a scratch on him.
00:25:08.710 --> 00:25:09.029
You know what?
00:25:09.109 --> 00:25:11.909
I should probably take him to the hospital anyway, just in case there's internal injuries.
00:25:12.069 --> 00:25:13.669
And James says, ah, he's a tough kid.
00:25:13.750 --> 00:25:14.629
I'm sure he's fine.
00:25:14.789 --> 00:25:17.190
Like, what, you're gonna rub some dirt on it?
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:22.309
Like, like you don't know where this child has been for like 25 minutes.
00:25:22.549 --> 00:25:25.269
And he was just standing in the middle of traffic.
00:25:25.430 --> 00:25:27.669
Yes, you take him to the hospital.
00:25:27.909 --> 00:25:28.950
You double check.
00:25:29.109 --> 00:25:30.950
The child can't talk.
00:25:31.349 --> 00:25:31.990
Yeah.
00:25:32.309 --> 00:25:32.629
Yeah.
00:25:32.869 --> 00:25:35.909
You double check that there's nothing wrong.
00:25:37.190 --> 00:25:39.029
You know, it's it's interesting.
00:25:39.190 --> 00:25:46.710
One one of the things that's coming up for me in in all of this is the double standard to regarding gender, right?
00:25:46.869 --> 00:26:00.629
When we see today, if there's a woman in the grocery store with a toddler who's screaming, everybody has that sort of look of judgment, like she should get her kid under control.
00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:10.309
If there's a man in the grocery store by himself with a toddler who's screaming, there's all of this sympathy and empathy, like, oh, what a good dad.
00:26:10.470 --> 00:26:14.869
And people like offer to help in ways they would not offer to help a mom.
00:26:15.190 --> 00:26:32.309
And I think there's something of that coming up here that audiences in '89 would have sort of given John Travolta a pass for having kidnapped the child because he was caring for the kid.
00:26:32.470 --> 00:26:44.869
And when men care for kids, even if it's their job, whether professionally or because they are a parent, we somehow like shower them with accolades.
00:26:45.269 --> 00:26:45.669
Yes.
00:26:45.829 --> 00:26:48.389
Yes, there's definitely a double standard.
00:26:48.629 --> 00:26:55.990
And I was doing the same kind of thought experiment that you did with uh Monsters Inc.
00:26:56.149 --> 00:26:57.430
with if Boo were a boy.
00:26:57.669 --> 00:26:58.230
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:58.389 --> 00:27:00.149
If Mikey had been a girl.
00:27:00.309 --> 00:27:00.549
Yeah.
00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:07.109
Then James definitely would have said, yeah, definitely James would have said, Yeah, we need to get her to the hospital to make sure she's okay.
00:27:07.349 --> 00:27:07.990
Yes.
00:27:08.950 --> 00:27:13.589
And the way that James interacts with the baby is kind of gross.
00:27:13.909 --> 00:27:22.149
So when she when he first comes to see the baby when she's a couple days postpartum, she says, I need to go get changed.
00:27:22.309 --> 00:27:24.069
Can you just keep an eye on him?
00:27:24.230 --> 00:27:26.549
Don't touch him or do anything.
00:27:26.710 --> 00:27:27.589
Just look at him.
00:27:28.470 --> 00:27:31.269
He starts talking to the baby and it's it's charming.
00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:35.589
He's telling him he's just like, So I'm gonna tell teach you about New York coffee.
00:27:35.829 --> 00:27:40.309
This is black coffee and coffee regulars with uh two sugars and and milk.
00:27:40.389 --> 00:27:42.549
And then he's like, I and they forgot to add the milk.
00:27:42.629 --> 00:27:44.069
So I'm gonna stay take some of yours.
00:27:44.149 --> 00:27:46.549
He takes some out of a bottle and it's breast milk.
00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:48.869
Oh my God, that grosses me out.
00:27:49.029 --> 00:27:55.029
Molly starts to like interrupt him, but like she she waits until he's drinking it and she goes, That's breast milk.
00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:58.389
And he like spits it out and he says to the baby, Why didn't you tell me?
00:27:58.549 --> 00:28:01.430
And Bruce Willis's voiceover is like, hey, you're on your own, man.
00:28:01.589 --> 00:28:10.950
But one of the things that he tells him, uh like first thing he says, uh that Molly doesn't hear is like, Yeah, you spend nine months trying to get out and the rest of your life trying to get back in.
00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:11.669
Ew.
00:28:13.269 --> 00:28:13.669
Ew.
00:28:14.789 --> 00:28:15.990
To a baby.
00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:17.430
Oh, newborn.
00:28:17.669 --> 00:28:18.710
A newborn.
00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:23.829
Oh, that and it's like that turns my stomach.
00:28:23.990 --> 00:28:25.190
It's so gross.
00:28:25.509 --> 00:28:26.309
It's so gross.
00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:29.750
And it's also like what?
00:28:33.029 --> 00:28:34.470
Like what what?
00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:37.829
It's awfully edible there, James.
00:28:38.230 --> 00:28:38.549
Yeah.
00:28:38.789 --> 00:28:40.629
Like what what?
00:28:41.750 --> 00:28:48.629
So it like it just doesn't it, it's it's so unnecessarily sexualized.
00:28:48.950 --> 00:28:49.589
Yeah.
00:28:49.909 --> 00:29:01.669
And then when he takes the baby and goes to the airport, the um, there's like a receptionist there who is a blonde, very gorgeous woman who's wearing a tank top and she has very, very large bosoms.
00:29:02.069 --> 00:29:04.470
And so You said bosom.
00:29:04.629 --> 00:29:05.509
I said bosoms.
00:29:07.829 --> 00:29:09.909
It's my preferred nomenclature.
00:29:10.149 --> 00:29:12.389
That's what mom said when we were growing up.
00:29:12.629 --> 00:29:13.269
Yes.
00:29:13.589 --> 00:29:18.869
So James is holding the baby and they're both like staring at this woman who is leaning over.
00:29:19.190 --> 00:29:22.149
And James says to the baby, you thinking what I'm thinking?
00:29:22.309 --> 00:29:31.029
And you hear uh Bruce Willis, and they manage to get a shot of the baby with like wide eyes, going, damn, these come in different sizes.
00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:37.589
And then you thinking what I'm thinking, James says, and uh, and then Bruce Willis's voiceover goes, Yeah, lunch.
00:29:38.470 --> 00:29:48.309
It's such an expectation that, yeah, of course, even an infant baby is going to be to objectify a woman.
00:29:48.629 --> 00:29:49.750
Objectify a woman.
00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:53.190
And it's funny because he's objectifying her for food.
00:29:53.349 --> 00:29:54.869
Like what?
00:29:55.990 --> 00:29:59.029
It just doesn't and like we do this.
00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:07.269
Like one of the reasons I had a realization years ago that the reason why people love babies is because you can project whatever you want onto the baby.
00:30:08.389 --> 00:30:09.829
I mean, yes, they're adorable.
00:30:09.909 --> 00:30:11.109
Yes, like there's all of that.
00:30:11.269 --> 00:30:17.509
But when you make up what they're saying in your head, it it's whatever fits your narrative.
00:30:18.230 --> 00:30:26.710
So, and that's part of what we love about babies and why people may like babies and not like kids, because kids have their own personalities.
00:30:26.950 --> 00:30:27.349
Yeah.
00:30:27.589 --> 00:30:27.909
Yeah.
00:30:28.149 --> 00:30:30.710
And and why it's okay to hate teenagers.
00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:32.069
Yeah.
00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:35.029
Because, man, do they have their own personalities.
00:30:35.269 --> 00:30:35.750
Yeah.
00:30:36.069 --> 00:30:49.750
So that that compulsory heteronormativity, I think there's a another aspect of it that I find a little troubling, which again, this is just like this is a silly, fluffy movie.
00:30:50.629 --> 00:30:57.190
But Bruce Willis voices Mikey, but he also voices the sperm that becomes Mikey.
00:30:57.349 --> 00:30:57.750
Right.
00:30:58.710 --> 00:31:06.149
Which in some ways suggests that the egg, that Molly's contribution didn't do anything to create his personality.
00:31:06.389 --> 00:31:06.789
Right.
00:31:07.589 --> 00:31:11.430
And that also is like a little gross.
00:31:11.750 --> 00:31:11.990
Yeah.
00:31:12.149 --> 00:31:12.950
It's bothersome.
00:31:13.269 --> 00:31:13.589
Yeah.
00:31:13.909 --> 00:31:15.750
Because he is half her.
00:31:15.990 --> 00:31:16.470
Right.
00:31:17.349 --> 00:31:19.190
And like I understand why they did that.
00:31:19.269 --> 00:31:24.149
Like they wanted to kind of establish the Bruce Willis voice.
00:31:24.549 --> 00:31:30.069
And there's some funny comments when the the all the sperm are trying to find the egg.
00:31:30.470 --> 00:31:39.269
But it does make this suggestion that like this personality was fully formed in Albert's balls.
00:31:39.509 --> 00:31:40.069
Yeah.
00:31:42.629 --> 00:31:45.190
And, you know, just needed the egg for, you know.
00:31:45.990 --> 00:31:46.549
Soil.
00:31:46.950 --> 00:31:47.349
Yeah.
00:31:47.589 --> 00:31:47.990
Yeah.
00:31:48.470 --> 00:31:52.230
It's very old-fashioned and kind of misogynistic.
00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:52.950
Mm-hmm.
00:31:53.349 --> 00:31:53.750
Yeah.
00:31:53.990 --> 00:32:05.509
And it makes you wonder like if they had followed the same trajectory with Julie's conception, the the the daughter's conception.
00:32:05.829 --> 00:32:08.869
Would one of the sperm have Joan Rivers' voice?
00:32:09.269 --> 00:32:09.509
Right.
00:32:09.669 --> 00:32:11.909
Or would they have made the ovum be Joan Rivers?
00:32:12.389 --> 00:32:12.789
Yeah.
00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:13.430
Yeah.
00:32:13.669 --> 00:32:14.309
Yeah.
00:32:14.869 --> 00:32:18.309
There's also the this, and again, this is time capsule.
00:32:18.470 --> 00:32:27.430
Mikey at one point is playing in a in a sandbox with two other, you know, toddlers and um one of them is picked up by her father and carried away.
00:32:27.589 --> 00:32:31.909
And as Bruce Willis like says, like, hey, who's that big guy?
00:32:31.990 --> 00:32:32.869
What's what what's going on?
00:32:33.109 --> 00:32:35.990
And the other other little kids, like, oh, that's that's her daddy.
00:32:36.230 --> 00:32:36.869
That's the daddy.
00:32:36.950 --> 00:32:37.909
Yeah, I remember that.
00:32:38.069 --> 00:32:38.629
I remember that.
00:32:38.869 --> 00:32:40.309
And he's like, What's a daddy?
00:32:40.389 --> 00:32:44.869
And and like, and that's when he decides to ask James to be his daddy.
00:32:45.109 --> 00:32:45.750
Right.
00:32:46.389 --> 00:32:52.869
And there are so many ways to make a family, and there were in 1989.
00:32:53.109 --> 00:32:55.990
And again, it's it's a time capsule.
00:32:56.230 --> 00:33:02.549
And part of, you know, Molly's journey is she is trying to find the right father for her son.
00:33:03.029 --> 00:33:07.509
But there's never any sense that, like, we're fine, just the two of us.
00:33:08.069 --> 00:33:08.549
Mm-hmm.
00:33:09.190 --> 00:33:14.789
Uh, now some of that has to do with her mother, played by Olympia Dukakis, who is hilarious.
00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:16.869
Like, she is hilarious.
00:33:17.109 --> 00:33:19.349
And again, very real to life.
00:33:19.669 --> 00:33:32.470
So her mother, whose name I can't remember, is consistently saying, you know, you're so pretty and you need to, you need to get married, and and, you know, those sorts of like that kind of pressure.
00:33:33.190 --> 00:33:41.750
And when Molly asks her mother for advice on on love and dating, without telling her, because her mother doesn't know that she's been having an affair with a with a married man.
00:33:42.869 --> 00:33:46.549
But she'll she'll ask about how her mother and father met.
00:33:46.629 --> 00:33:50.149
And like we only see her father, like, they're all accountants.
00:33:50.309 --> 00:33:52.789
And her father seems like the most boring man on earth.
00:33:53.029 --> 00:33:58.069
Like there's a point where one of the funniest sight gags is she's like, Do you ever get bored of daddy?
00:33:58.230 --> 00:33:59.509
And she's like, What's to get bored?
00:33:59.669 --> 00:34:04.950
And you turn and then he's reading the journal of accounting and just giggling to himself.
00:34:05.109 --> 00:34:08.150
Like he turns the page and he starts laughing even harder.
00:34:11.829 --> 00:34:13.269
Like we never see him speak.
00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:14.550
He never talks.
00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:21.750
And like, you know, her mother says stuff like, um, you know, well, you just you find someone you have something in common with.
00:34:21.909 --> 00:34:25.909
Like, we're both accountants, we both love to eat at diners, and both we both love the movies.
00:34:26.070 --> 00:34:27.269
That's all you need.
00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:29.430
I see.
00:34:30.150 --> 00:34:38.550
So, like, it's very clear that Molly is operating without any realistic guidance or support.
00:34:38.789 --> 00:34:39.430
Yeah.
00:34:39.830 --> 00:34:52.870
And her best friend, Rona, who is very supportive, but is similarly at sea when it comes to romance and dating, she's really trying to figure stuff out without any help.
00:34:53.990 --> 00:35:02.150
But the film does sign off on the idea that, you know, a nuclear family is the right way to go.
00:35:03.350 --> 00:35:03.830
Mm-hmm.
00:35:04.710 --> 00:35:05.350
You know.
00:35:06.710 --> 00:35:11.990
I don't know that there were queer couples having babies in Manhattan in 1989.
00:35:13.590 --> 00:35:14.630
Seems like there must have been.
00:35:14.870 --> 00:35:15.510
There must have been.
00:35:15.750 --> 00:35:19.269
I mean, that was before the the book Heather Has Two Mommies, which was in the 90s.
00:35:19.430 --> 00:35:22.550
So But there was a need for that Heather Has Two Mommies.
00:35:22.789 --> 00:35:22.950
Yes.
00:35:23.190 --> 00:35:25.990
And some of this is just like this is this is a time.
00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:33.670
I mean, this is what was considered normal and and and all of that in in uh 1989.
00:35:35.910 --> 00:35:43.430
But it lets James off the hook for some really bad behavior because of of that that expectation.
00:35:43.670 --> 00:35:57.990
And it posits that Molly is somehow incomplete, even though she's, I mean, she she's a well-paid CPA doing a job she she likes and is good at.
00:35:58.230 --> 00:36:00.150
Uh she's got a great apartment.
00:36:00.390 --> 00:36:06.390
You know, she's got friends, she's got a life, and like she and Mikey would be fine.
00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:07.670
The two of them.
00:36:08.310 --> 00:36:08.710
Yeah.
00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:12.550
And James comes in and he's kind of like the fun dad.
00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:13.190
Yeah.
00:36:13.350 --> 00:36:18.710
There are there's multiple times where she comes in after he's been babysitting and the place is a wreck because he hasn't cleaned up.
00:36:19.030 --> 00:36:19.750
Right, right.
00:36:19.910 --> 00:36:22.310
And he smokes in front of the baby and he kidnaps the baby.
00:36:22.550 --> 00:36:22.710
Yeah.
00:36:23.110 --> 00:36:25.750
He doesn't he, you know, rubs some dirt on it.
00:36:26.310 --> 00:36:26.710
Yeah.
00:36:26.950 --> 00:36:27.990
Tough kid.
00:36:28.630 --> 00:36:30.550
But, you know, she needs him.
00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:31.590
Right.
00:36:31.910 --> 00:36:34.789
Because she doesn't know how to let go and loosen up.
00:36:35.030 --> 00:36:35.670
Loosen up.
00:36:35.750 --> 00:36:36.230
Yeah.
00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:37.190
Gross.
00:36:37.430 --> 00:36:45.269
It's yeah, it's it's and seeing John Travolta interact with the the baby actors is adorable.
00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:51.190
He has chemistry with these babies, and there's a dance scene, which, you know, John Travolta's a great dancer.
00:36:51.430 --> 00:36:57.030
The scene is um scored to walking on sunshine, and it it's it's lovely.
00:36:57.350 --> 00:37:05.269
He seems like he could potentially be a good dad if he could be a fully adult human first.
00:37:05.910 --> 00:37:06.550
Right.
00:37:07.430 --> 00:37:08.070
Right.
00:37:09.030 --> 00:37:10.630
I'm reminded of Mrs.
00:37:10.789 --> 00:37:29.110
Doubtfire, where, you know, the Sally Field character in some ways is kind of shames for being annoyed that the Robin Williams character is always making a mess and always like and and shirking responsibility, you know, in the in the name of fun.
00:37:30.390 --> 00:37:32.390
As if the two can't coexist.
00:37:32.710 --> 00:37:33.190
Yes.
00:37:33.350 --> 00:37:33.750
Yeah.
00:37:33.910 --> 00:37:35.590
That's part of the time capsule.
00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:41.110
And I think there is a sense.
00:37:41.269 --> 00:37:42.150
I I'm not sure.
00:37:42.230 --> 00:37:44.070
So the the class differences.
00:37:44.470 --> 00:37:44.870
Oh, yeah.
00:37:44.950 --> 00:37:45.910
Let's talk about class.
00:37:46.070 --> 00:37:46.550
Yeah.
00:37:46.870 --> 00:38:00.390
So the fact that Molly is interested in James, even though he is blue-collar and makes a lot less than her, I think is supposed to show like how she's progressive, how she's forward-thinking.
00:38:00.550 --> 00:38:06.789
And we definitely see that James is a better father and person than Albert.
00:38:07.350 --> 00:38:10.630
But she wasn't interested in him initially, right?
00:38:10.789 --> 00:38:11.670
I mean, it's it no.
00:38:11.830 --> 00:38:18.710
It takes the baby responding to him for hack for her to actually see him as a as a potential partner, right?
00:38:18.950 --> 00:38:19.190
Yes.
00:38:19.350 --> 00:38:28.950
Now, part of that is because when she is done with Albert, she she tells newborn Mikey, like, I'm sorry your father isn't here.
00:38:29.030 --> 00:38:36.550
I'm sorry he's kind of worthless as a father, but I'm gonna find you the best possible father I can.
00:38:36.710 --> 00:38:40.630
Which again, it's just like, no, you and me, kid.
00:38:40.950 --> 00:38:41.590
It's us.
00:38:41.830 --> 00:38:50.710
But and so when we see her on dates, they're always middle class men who seem to have office jobs.
00:38:51.269 --> 00:38:51.590
Yeah.
00:38:52.710 --> 00:38:54.550
Uh peers.
00:38:55.430 --> 00:39:03.190
And so I think there is a a sense that that class distinction is something that she has taken as a given, as a necessary.
00:39:04.789 --> 00:39:06.710
Which feels true to life.
00:39:06.950 --> 00:39:07.350
Yes.
00:39:07.750 --> 00:39:08.150
Yes.
00:39:09.110 --> 00:39:10.310
It definitely does.
00:39:11.430 --> 00:39:21.350
And in some ways, it feels like the movie also wants us to know it's okay that he's a taxi driver, because really he's uh a pilot.
00:39:21.830 --> 00:39:24.070
You know, like he's not really a taxi driver.
00:39:24.230 --> 00:39:27.830
He just does that for money because he's a flight instructor.
00:39:27.990 --> 00:39:33.110
And she asks him at one point, like, you know, well, how much does it do you make as a flight instructor?
00:39:33.190 --> 00:39:36.310
He's like, Well, if I really hustle, I can I can clear up 1100.
00:39:36.390 --> 00:39:37.110
She's like, a week?
00:39:37.190 --> 00:39:38.310
And he goes, No, a month.
00:39:38.550 --> 00:39:41.190
And she's like, Oh my God, why do you even bother?
00:39:42.150 --> 00:39:44.470
He can't just be a taxi driver.
00:39:44.630 --> 00:39:44.789
Right.
00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:47.590
He has to have a passion.
00:39:47.910 --> 00:39:48.310
A passion.
00:39:48.550 --> 00:39:50.070
That's somehow more noble.
00:39:50.390 --> 00:39:51.030
Yes.
00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:57.430
That also like it kind of undercuts it a little bit.
00:39:57.990 --> 00:40:03.030
It undercuts her progressivism implied by her accepting him as a partner.
00:40:03.510 --> 00:40:03.910
Yeah.
00:40:05.030 --> 00:40:08.950
It's also I think that's as much for the for the viewer.
00:40:09.269 --> 00:40:21.510
So that that the you know, the middle class women who are the target audience accept John Travolta as a as a life partner for for their self-insert.
00:40:21.910 --> 00:40:22.310
Mm-hmm.
00:40:23.510 --> 00:40:27.350
So it there's a there's a degree to which the classism is pandering.
00:40:27.750 --> 00:40:27.910
Yes.
00:40:28.230 --> 00:40:28.550
I think.
00:40:28.950 --> 00:40:29.190
Yes.
00:40:29.510 --> 00:40:35.269
And it also, like, there's a bit of I don't know if pandering's quite the right word.
00:40:35.510 --> 00:40:40.070
So the woman that Albert has the second affair with is his interior decorator.
00:40:40.230 --> 00:40:46.550
And so there's a point where Molly comes in and he's telling her about all the changes that he's gonna be doing to his office.
00:40:46.630 --> 00:40:54.550
And so it's a$10,000 desk, and he's getting like Native American rugs that were woven.
00:40:54.630 --> 00:40:57.590
And he's going through all of these things, and he's like, So what do you think?
00:40:57.750 --> 00:41:01.910
And she's like, I like the deco, which is the the style that he has right now.
00:41:02.150 --> 00:41:02.470
Yeah.
00:41:02.789 --> 00:41:10.070
And so we also get kind of a hello to this guy, you know, like wasting so much money on decorations that don't matter.
00:41:11.030 --> 00:41:13.030
We don't need any more for Albert to be a villain.
00:41:13.110 --> 00:41:13.990
He's a villain.
00:41:14.150 --> 00:41:14.710
Mm-hmm.
00:41:15.670 --> 00:41:17.830
But there that we see that.
00:41:17.910 --> 00:41:23.990
And then John Travolta's character talks about how, like, at one point he's like, Oh, you want lunch?
00:41:24.070 --> 00:41:24.870
Uh, you want to get lunch?
00:41:24.950 --> 00:41:25.830
He's like, Yeah, I could eat.
00:41:25.990 --> 00:41:29.269
He's like, Oh, Northwestern Mutual, they, they, they give uh their employees lunch.
00:41:29.350 --> 00:41:30.150
We'll just go in.
00:41:30.390 --> 00:41:31.510
And she's like, What?
00:41:31.750 --> 00:41:36.230
And so he has found ways to scam free stuff throughout the city.
00:41:36.470 --> 00:41:39.590
He's like, Yeah, I don't pay attention, pay for uh long distance calls.
00:41:39.830 --> 00:41:46.310
I just go into like a big office and pretend to be a lost messenger and ask the receptionist if I can use their phone.
00:41:46.470 --> 00:41:46.870
It's great.
00:41:46.950 --> 00:41:48.789
I call my mom, I call my brothers.
00:41:49.110 --> 00:41:53.590
That is also kind of shown as those kind of scams, which he's doing all the time.
00:41:53.670 --> 00:42:06.789
That's how he got his grandfather into the nursing home with when he didn't have Manhattan residency, as like applauded, at least like intelligent.
00:42:06.870 --> 00:42:09.670
It's like it's smart, even though she's like, this is ridiculous.
00:42:09.830 --> 00:42:16.150
And she has a fantasy in in she thinks about like, oh my God, if I ended up with him, because he's like, we we could be poor and still live like kings.
00:42:16.230 --> 00:42:19.590
And so she has a fantasy about what that would look like, and it's horrifying.
00:42:19.910 --> 00:42:20.550
Uh-huh.
00:42:21.350 --> 00:42:29.590
But so it's not so do you think that the filmmakers wanted us to appreciate that about him or judge him for it?
00:42:32.150 --> 00:42:42.710
I think we are invited to like see it as a quirk rather than like something like a flaw.
00:42:42.950 --> 00:42:43.350
Uh-huh.
00:42:43.510 --> 00:42:45.670
But it's not necessarily to be lauded.
00:42:46.150 --> 00:42:50.710
But it is definitely better than$10,000 on a desk.
00:42:51.269 --> 00:42:51.910
Right.
00:42:52.630 --> 00:42:53.030
Right.
00:42:53.269 --> 00:42:53.590
Okay.
00:42:54.870 --> 00:42:55.269
Huh.
00:42:55.670 --> 00:42:58.630
It's it's hard to say because there's there's a lot in there.
00:42:58.789 --> 00:43:03.030
But he says something about like, yeah, I know 20 would 20 different ways to get free lunch in this town.
00:43:03.190 --> 00:43:11.990
And and on the one hand, that's like survival, you know, someone living in New York City making very little money, you're gonna find ways to survive.
00:43:12.310 --> 00:43:19.190
But we could live like kings on someone else's dime.
00:43:19.750 --> 00:43:27.910
Just feels well, but that the movie makers through Molly's fantasy show us that that's, you know, unacceptable.
00:43:28.230 --> 00:43:28.470
Yeah.
00:43:28.630 --> 00:43:28.789
Yeah.
00:43:29.030 --> 00:43:43.190
There's a I wonder if this is like there's a there was a joke, a truism that when I was a student of religion, we used to talk about anyone who is more religiously observant than you are is a fanatic.
00:43:43.269 --> 00:43:46.230
And anyone who is less religiously observant than you are is lazy.
00:43:46.470 --> 00:43:51.350
And that's sort of, I feel like that sort of conversation is what's happening here, right?
00:43:51.430 --> 00:44:02.950
So anyone who's like more extravagant with their wealth than Molly is off their racker, but with Albert.
00:44:03.110 --> 00:44:26.150
But anyone who is, you know, considerably less is also somehow lazy or not to be trusted, or I'm not sure what the right denigrative adjective is, but it reminds me of that truism where from one's point of view, the the way that they do it, whether with religion or with money, is the right way and ways to.
00:44:26.630 --> 00:44:29.670
To either extreme are to be avoided.
00:44:31.670 --> 00:44:34.550
And that maybe have been for the audience as well.
00:44:34.710 --> 00:44:41.750
Like assuming that the target audience was sort of, you know, middle class folks.
00:44:42.150 --> 00:44:42.789
Yeah.
00:44:43.750 --> 00:44:44.390
Hmm.
00:44:46.070 --> 00:44:49.510
Well, we're running a little short on time, I believe.
00:44:49.830 --> 00:44:53.830
And we did not talk about beauty standards and weight.
00:44:53.990 --> 00:44:55.590
Do you want to talk about that?
00:44:56.230 --> 00:44:57.430
Just briefly.
00:44:57.750 --> 00:45:02.870
So we have that moment where Albert says ta talks about Molly's weight.
00:45:03.110 --> 00:45:07.750
And there's also a montage during portion of her pregnancy.
00:45:07.910 --> 00:45:16.470
And we see her consistently um getting on an old-fashioned scale to kind of the uh where you mean where you move the weights.
00:45:16.630 --> 00:45:17.990
No, you move the weights.
00:45:18.150 --> 00:45:18.630
Yeah.
00:45:18.950 --> 00:45:25.430
And so we see her like her face, facial expression, where uh at first she's like, ooh, ooh, okay.
00:45:25.590 --> 00:45:28.470
And then the next time, and then the next time.
00:45:28.789 --> 00:45:34.310
And because it's the, you know, you move the weights, you can see how much she weighs.
00:45:34.470 --> 00:45:39.269
And the first time she she has that facial expression, she's 120 pounds.
00:45:39.510 --> 00:45:40.470
Oh my God.
00:45:40.789 --> 00:45:43.990
And then I haven't been 120 pounds since I was 14.
00:45:44.230 --> 00:45:44.870
I know.
00:45:45.269 --> 00:45:47.190
And then it's in 130.
00:45:47.269 --> 00:45:51.670
And then when she like the final one, it's uh like it goes all the way to 150.
00:45:51.830 --> 00:45:55.910
And she's like and like really, really not happy about it.
00:45:57.430 --> 00:46:07.269
And I can't say that I looked at the weight numbers previously, but you can see them.
00:46:07.830 --> 00:46:10.390
They are, they are like I didn't have to pause it or anything.
00:46:10.470 --> 00:46:13.510
I could tell what it was if you're looking.
00:46:13.830 --> 00:46:24.070
And it's just like and particularly considering how Kirsi Alley struggled with her weight and body image throughout her life.
00:46:24.870 --> 00:46:28.950
And the fact that Beth, who we never meet, is bulimic.
00:46:29.269 --> 00:46:31.590
It's just like we did not need to include this.
00:46:31.830 --> 00:46:33.190
We did not need to include this.
00:46:33.590 --> 00:46:44.950
Like the the line with Albert saying saying about how she shouldn't gain too much weight and and that, that I think is is worthwhile to include because it shows how women are public property when they're pregnant.
00:46:46.789 --> 00:46:55.590
This is supposed to be like funny and relatable, and it just feels like who's gonna relate to this?
00:46:59.110 --> 00:47:02.550
And again, I it it feels like time capsule.
00:47:02.630 --> 00:47:06.470
I mean, this is this was what we did in the late 80s.
00:47:06.789 --> 00:47:07.190
Yeah.
00:47:08.070 --> 00:47:08.710
Yeah.
00:47:10.870 --> 00:47:15.430
Any final words of analysis before I try and synthesize back to you what we talked about?
00:47:16.070 --> 00:47:18.550
Not analysis, but I've got an interesting fact.
00:47:18.870 --> 00:47:19.190
Okay.
00:47:19.590 --> 00:47:34.630
So Amy Heckerling, her her child Molly, I believe, was the result of a similar relationship where she was and um Harold Ramis thought it was about him.
00:47:35.269 --> 00:47:35.910
Really?
00:47:36.150 --> 00:47:36.710
Mm-hmm.
00:47:38.310 --> 00:47:43.269
I will include the link in the show notes to where I learned that interesting fact.
00:47:43.910 --> 00:47:44.550
Wow.
00:47:44.950 --> 00:47:45.430
Yeah.
00:47:46.950 --> 00:47:49.030
Egon, I had no idea.
00:47:49.269 --> 00:47:49.830
I know.
00:47:50.310 --> 00:47:50.710
Egon.
00:47:55.269 --> 00:47:55.830
All right.
00:47:56.150 --> 00:48:20.310
So reflecting back to you, what we talked about, you started with talking about the ways this movie is sort of a mirror when it shows Molly's pregnant body being public property that people feel the right to touch and give advice whether or not it has been asked.
00:48:21.030 --> 00:48:26.870
And we both shared experiences of having that happen when we ourselves were pregnant.
00:48:27.430 --> 00:48:45.590
You spent some time talking about compulsory heterosexuality and the way that that is sort of projected onto this child uh character, all the more so by having Bruce Willis be his voice, which is funny to have an adult man's voice for this tiny baby.
00:48:45.750 --> 00:48:55.830
But then the corollary becomes, and I think this happens in other places too, when I think about the baby in Roger Rabbit.
00:48:55.910 --> 00:49:02.150
There's like a baby cart, a cartoon baby who's very sexual, and other I don't I don't know if boss baby is or not.
00:49:02.310 --> 00:49:02.870
I don't think so.
00:49:03.030 --> 00:49:03.350
I don't know.
00:49:03.590 --> 00:49:20.550
Anyway, but but the compulsory hetero heterosexuality that had John Travolta's James saying like weird, inappropriate things to a newborn that had the baby objectifying a woman's body and it was funny.
00:49:20.630 --> 00:49:24.390
I'm putting quotes around that word because he was like, Yeah, lunch.
00:49:25.670 --> 00:49:47.910
We talked about the things that sort of stand out in the way that safety standards, technology has changed, but also in the societal, the cultural expectations, where in '89 the character of Molly is to a certain extent shamed or reprimanded for being overprotective.
00:49:48.150 --> 00:49:51.830
Whereas from today's eyes, she was not protective enough.
00:49:52.630 --> 00:50:11.910
And we did talk about the double standard too, whereby we, the audience, are meant to give James a pass for basically kidnapping the child because he's a man and, you know, isn't it great that he wants to spend time with a kid?
00:50:12.789 --> 00:50:13.750
Let me see.
00:50:14.070 --> 00:50:28.470
We spent some time talking about classism and where the film kind of falls out as moral judgment on different class and different uses and attitudes toward money.
00:50:28.630 --> 00:50:46.070
And I brought in the analogy of from talking about religion, uh, where anyone who is sort of more extreme than one's own point of view is to be mocked as extremist, and anybody less extreme is to be mocked as lazy.
00:50:46.230 --> 00:50:49.670
And I think that that's comes out here too with the class thing.
00:50:50.070 --> 00:50:55.910
George Carlin said something similar about how when you're driving, anyone going faster than you is a maniac, anyone slower than you is an idiot.
00:50:56.230 --> 00:50:56.470
Yes.
00:50:56.630 --> 00:50:56.870
Yes.
00:50:56.950 --> 00:51:00.150
I think it, I mean, I think it it it translates in a lot of places.
00:51:00.310 --> 00:51:05.990
Like I was a scholar of religion, and so that's why it comes up for me in religious uh uh connotations.
00:51:06.150 --> 00:51:09.590
But in this context, in this economic context, I think it is the same.
00:51:09.750 --> 00:51:15.269
So the people with more money, so Albert is wasteful.
00:51:16.070 --> 00:51:21.350
And people with money less money, so James is somehow unsavory.
00:51:21.670 --> 00:51:23.430
So we talked about that to a certain extent.
00:51:23.590 --> 00:51:28.390
And and you came back to again and again, uh, I'll come back to the heteronormativity.
00:51:28.630 --> 00:51:34.550
You said this in a a couple of different ways, that it's not just heteronormativity.
00:51:34.789 --> 00:52:00.550
It is, but it's it's there's something else, another piece of it, which is about the primacy of the nuclear family, of that heterosexual pairing as the center of a family that is completely compulsory and not questioned at all by this movie, even though it presents a character in Molly who could potentially thrive as a single mom.
00:52:00.710 --> 00:52:10.710
She has the resources, both financial and human, because she has a support system to potentially do it, but that's not an option for her.
00:52:10.870 --> 00:52:13.350
She doesn't, she doesn't see that as an option.
00:52:13.590 --> 00:52:20.950
And so again and again, the movie kind of comes back to the fact that she needs to find a dad a daddy for her son.
00:52:21.269 --> 00:52:32.789
And we get that through the babies talking to one another, and we get that through Molly talking to her mom and to others, and and Molly talking to Mikey, the baby.
00:52:33.430 --> 00:52:36.070
She never says, like, it's you and me, kid, we're gonna be okay.
00:52:36.230 --> 00:52:38.789
She says, I'm gonna find you the best daddy I can.
00:52:39.430 --> 00:52:41.430
I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
00:52:41.590 --> 00:52:56.390
Oh, we did talk a bit about beauty standards and weight and the fact that while you felt Albert's comments about his bulimic wife only gaining 20 pounds with pregnancy felt necessary to the plot and to the character development.
00:52:56.950 --> 00:53:08.630
The montage where we see Molly gaining weight and not feeling good about it, and we actually see that the numbers felt gratuitous to you and and potentially harmful.
00:53:08.870 --> 00:53:11.030
I mean, especially the number at 120.
00:53:11.110 --> 00:53:17.110
Like, seriously, I think I was 14 or maybe younger the last time I I weighed 120.
00:53:17.350 --> 00:53:18.950
So yeah.
00:53:19.190 --> 00:53:20.150
What did I forget?
00:53:20.310 --> 00:53:22.230
I feel like I I'm forgetting something.
00:53:22.470 --> 00:53:23.510
Did I get it all?
00:53:23.750 --> 00:53:25.510
Uh no, I think you got it.
00:53:25.750 --> 00:53:26.550
Okay, cool.
00:53:26.789 --> 00:53:43.830
I will I will reiterate actually, Heckerling, who wrote and directed this film, we we feel seen in a lot of ways because she clearly experienced the pregnant body being sort of treated as if it's public, uh, public property and and and that sort of thing.
00:53:43.910 --> 00:53:50.789
But then you brought in this surprising little fact that perhaps Albert, the real life Albert, was Harold Ramis.
00:53:51.430 --> 00:53:52.070
What?
00:53:52.789 --> 00:53:54.150
Anyway, okay.
00:53:54.470 --> 00:53:56.550
Well, thank you for this.
00:53:56.710 --> 00:53:58.710
I was that was kind of fun to revisit.
00:53:58.950 --> 00:54:02.310
And next time we're gonna have a guest on.
00:54:02.630 --> 00:54:08.230
Uh, one of my romantic partners, Seth, is gonna come on to talk to us about the TV show Lost.
00:54:08.550 --> 00:54:09.590
Oh, fun.
00:54:10.789 --> 00:54:11.670
See you then.
00:54:11.830 --> 00:54:12.789
See you then.
00:54:13.750 --> 00:54:18.070
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce.
00:54:18.310 --> 00:54:23.670
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00:54:23.910 --> 00:54:26.150
You can support us at our Patreon.
00:54:26.310 --> 00:54:30.710
There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us.
00:54:30.950 --> 00:54:33.830
And of course, share the show with your people.
00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:39.190
Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com.
00:54:39.590 --> 00:54:41.750
Find full music credits in the show notes.
00:54:41.990 --> 00:54:46.310
Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture.
00:54:46.550 --> 00:54:48.390
And shouldn't you know what's in your head?