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Yeah.
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Well, no, I was gonna say just a quick one before we start.
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I was gonna say, this morning I was...
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I went for an early morning swim with my sister.
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We go to a local lake, which is really lovely, really good for the wellbeing.
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But anyway, I was tell- I was telling her, she said, "What are you doing today?" I said, "Oh, I'm, I'm recording a podcast on systems leadership," and literally I may as well have said I was talking about the history of filing cabinets.
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She just sort of turned away and carried on swimming.
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And I thought, "Oh, yeah, it's not the most exciting, is it?" But it did lead me to think about the language around system leadership and how we...
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So introducing it and, and how we talk about it today I think is gonna be really, really key.
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Anyway, I'll let you do your introduction.
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Thank you, Emma.
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Hello and welcome back to the Creating Value in Schools podcast with me, Liz Worthen, where we talk about ways to work more sustainably in schools and flourish in our roles.
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And yes, today I'm joined by Unbound SBLs Emma Gray and Helen Burge to tackle a serious-sounding topic: systems leadership, or, how school business leaders can make that shift from operational expert to strategic thinker, from indispensable doer to influential leader.
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Okay.
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First, what do we mean by systems leadership? Over to Emma.
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I think school business leaders particularly are systems leaders.
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They don't get up in the morning and think, "Right, I'm gonna do some systems leadership today."
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But they, they do see the bigger picture, and they do see how everything interconnects.
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So they're, they, because they are responsible for such a wide variety of, of roles within the school they will be seeing all, how all of these bits connect.
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So how the finance links to the curriculum, and how, you know, technology links to outcomes.
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And all of these things really is systems leadership and how do all of these functions contribute to what the, the school trust organisation is trying to achieve? I see it that they're not just trying to make their own school, their own trust better, but they're trying to make the education system better.
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That's a s- a very simple version of what system leadership is.
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And I think also in our roles, not just for school business leaders but for, uh, for other educational leaders, it's also system leadership across multiple systems.
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So, you know, CAMS, NHS But, you know, there it's sometimes it spreads beyond the education system as well, which is quite exciting But I think we probably just need to focus today on what system leadership means within the education system.
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It goes back a little bit to strategy.
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What are we trying to achieve here? What, what outcomes are we looking for? Who else does this affect? You know, it's, it's, it often goes, you're right, outside the boundaries of the school.
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But h- having an influence on systems leadership within your own setting is a really important place to start, I would say.
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And then if you're part of a, a wider organisation, whether that be a federation or a local authority or a academy trust and influencing the systems that work sort of outside your immediate setting is also system leadership.
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So the influence you have over what happens in other schools in your trust, for example is school business leaders making changes and improving systems leadership, and they often don't see that's what they're doing.
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I also think it's about an individual thinking, "How do I stop this problem occurring at somewhere else?" And we see that, don't we, in case studies and or unfortunately we see it sometimes on the front page of Schools Week.
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You know, there's an awful issue and we all look at it and respond re- you know, an emotional reaction about, "Crikey, how are we gonna stop that from happening in our place?" So I think it's, uh, it is about how you can share positives, but also how you can try and prevent things from reoccurring.
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So yes, so if I'm, so I'm a school business manager, perhaps say in an individual school, what is, what's the difference between me being a kind of operational leader and me being a systems leader? What kind of things would I be doing differently? I think as an operational leader, you are delivering, you're solving problems, you're managing, you're keeping the organisation going with the systems that are already in place.
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Whereas I think as a systems leader within an organisation, you might be reviewing, updating, maybe creating some new standard operating procedures for the operational leaders to then implement.
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As simple as that really, isn't it? That a systems leader is probably creating the conditions for an operational leader to, to work within.
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We see it, Helen and I see it a lot in our work as DSBM tutors that, that often when you've come down a l- a little way down the modules with a DSBM learner, and they suddenly start to see the interconnectedness between, I don't know, the risk register and their budget plan and, and other documents they've got, and they suddenly see that actually the value of this is because it informs that, which means that this person can challenge me, and it becomes a complete circle of that systems leadership.
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How are we, how are we improving? What hap- what happens elsewhere in the organisation if I make this change? Um, and we talk quite a bit about change leadership and how, how interesting and, and motivating that can be to really, You know, my old CEO used to talk about leaving a legacy and what actually is his tenure going to be remembered for.
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During that time, what did we do to move the school on? So what, not only what happens in, within the organisation if I make this change, but how does that, how does what I'm doing contribute to the organisation as a whole, or even the sector as a whole in what I'm trying to, in what we're all trying to achieve.
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Why would anybody want to do it? I mean, that's really what I always enjoyed in, in my role is that strategic thinking out a little bit outside the box, seeing that how roles connect, pulling teams together to make one thing happen, which really stepped us forward.
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I think, Emma, what you were saying about our DSBM learners is, yeah, is, is right.
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It- that, that moment when rather than doing what they've always done, they've taken a step back, and they've then become curious.
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To quote Ted Lasso, "Be curious."
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And actually that curiosity A, about, you know, really understanding maybe what the data is telling you within your own organisation and then comparing it with another organisation.
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Why is it different? Try to understand that.
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What can I learn from that process? What can I now put in place within my own school as a result? Or what do I need to share with that other school that they could learn from us? So I think it's that that, yeah, the, the ability to become curious.
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So not just do but to, to, to look and try and understand a little bit more.
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Ted Lasso, sort of way of thinking is be a goldfli- fish, isn't it? Be a goldfish and, you know, forget what's happened and just keep moving on.
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And I think school business leaders really need to keep doing that because they r- we do inevitably get knocked back.
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There are lots of things going on, and we might not hit all of our to-do list, but to be a goldfish and to keep moving forward and not remembering everything that's gone on behind you is, is a really good learning.
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I think also to carry on with our Ted Lasso appreciation, Ted has got a lot of humility, hasn't he? He recognises that he doesn't have all the answers.
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He leans into other people's expertise and skillsets, and enthusiasm, and and, makes the most of that.
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So I think there's, as a system leader, you do have to recognise that you don't have all the answers, but you're going to find them out from somewhere else, and you're going to recognise, uh, another leader who might not currently see themself as a system leader, and connect with them and learn from them.
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And I think there's something really great about opening up those sort of opportunities via networking.
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You know, that's a great one, isn't it? Mm-hmm.
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You know, just saying to somebody, "Well, that's a really good idea," you can see their face change, and you just think, "Wow, has no one ever told you you've had a good idea before?" 'Cause that's some reaction that you've just shared with me.
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Encouraging people to flourish in their roles is what we're all about at Creating Value in Schools.
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For ongoing insights, tips, and resources delivered straight to your inbox, sign up for our fortnightly newsletter.
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Link in the show notes or description.
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You'll find other useful resources there too, including information about the DSBM, or to give it its full title, The Diploma for School Business Managers.
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Coming up next, we have a dilemma from a listener who's wondering about making an exit, and we'll be talking about the value of personal risk registers and the wisdom of Nanny McPhee.
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Now back to the show.
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Okay, maybe this is a good moment to actually bring in another listener dilemma.
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'Cause it kind of touches on valuing yourself, the value you bring to your role, which we talked about in our last episode.
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And yeah, but also where, where can you have influence, and where can you best position yourself? Anyway, so this school business leader has been offered a more senior role with better pay in another organisation.
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They are concerned as their departure would create significant challenges for their current school.
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Do you stay out of loyalty, or leave for your own development and sanity? I used to when I was having tough times if I, or if I was having tough times, not when, if I was having tough times at work, I would c- sometimes come home and offload to my husband, who would listen, uh, very patiently all the way through and, and then say, "But isn't that your job?" And that, that remind- that reminded me of that, because it's your job to make sure you leave your team, your department in a place where they can manage without you.
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That is your job at the end of the day.
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It's that succ- whole succession planning and, being able to leave sweep the sheds having everything clear and tidy, ready for, either somebody to take on temporarily while if you happen to be off sick, or if you move, then somebody else can, can pick up your role.
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So basically perhaps this isn't as gentle as as it should be, but Get yourself to a, a in a position where you can leave.
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And we get very possessive of our jobs, don't we? Because, this is my role.
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I really love my job, and I can't imagine anybody else doing it.
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But we're not being a good leader if we're doing that.
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Being indispensable is not good leadership.
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Yeah, and I think there's also something about no organisation, no school should be relying on someone who feels like that, who's literally sacrificing their own wellbeing, maybe their career aspirations and development opportunities in order to keep the school ticking over how it currently is.
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So, you know, we can't have schools relying on that.
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So it's probably a very...
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It's not gonna be a long-term solution for this, this SBL if they don't, if they stay in their school, because they're probably gonna be prone to burnout, frustration, that sort of switching off mentality, you know, not caring as much.
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No one wants to be like that.
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No one needs to be like that.
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And something that Emma and I have been talking about recently, obviously is risk management.
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It's, it's not gonna surprise you, I'm gonna talk about risk registers here, but about the idea of having your own personal risk register.
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So if you are, you know, a failure to to adjust your work diary or to to have planned adequate CPD for the year or something like that, which could lead to career stagnation or could lead to burnout or whatever the, the consequences are.
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If you actually think about your own personal risk register and what are you trying to protect yourself against, what controls have you got in place currently? Literally, what controls have you got in place about how you're gonna prevent yourself from getting risk burnout, or how you're gonna prevent work-life balance, poor work-life balance.
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So have you got enough controls? Do you need some more mitigations? You know- Is it that this particular school business leader, Liz, as the-- it could be that other people are leaving, which, you know, if you've got a head teacher that you really enjoy working with and you know that they're coming up to retirement or that they're gonna retire in like twelve to eighteen months' time, so you're gonna carry on waiting until they leave before you then make a decision about your own career.
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Like, you know, is that is that a good thing? What's the impact gonna be on you in that, that amount of time? So you do have to think about the likelihood of things, the impact that, that can happen, but also what is in your control.
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So for that individual school business leader you said about staying out of loyalty is that actually gonna be the best thing for them? So yeah, I know we all wanna do a really good job, and we all feel very strongly, which is why we all work in education rather than some corporate organisation.
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But I think we have to think about ourselves as well.
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I think that's really true.
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Thank you, yes.
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Yes, 'cause I was thinking too how I feel like education is the kind of world, isn't it, where we, we're doing it because we care, and so y- those feelings of loyalty can really come to the fore.
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You think, "I need to take care of these people, but what about this and what about that?" But I think you're also really right, but the risk is then that actually, you know, you don't enjoy your job as much, so maybe you're not doing a great job anyway.
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And ultimately it's not gonna be the best thing for you or even for the organisation.
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And organisations change over time.
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People, different people come in at different points in their careers and things move on and change.
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And actually maybe, you know, a bit like it's Is it Nanny McPhee? Uh, what's the quote about Nanny McPhee? We've got lots of little TV references here.
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It's as if we spent all summer watching telly, which we've not.
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But, you know, she's only gonna be there as long as you need her.
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She's there.
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I'm gonna have to get the quote.
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I'm gonna have to look it up 'cause it's gonna annoy me.
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What it is, what Nanny McPhee says is, "When you need me but do not want me, then I have to stay.
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When you want me but no longer need me, then I have to go."
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Ooh.
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So- That's quite deep, isn't it? Yeah.
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That is quite deep.
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Quite deep for a summer's afternoon.
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Uh, but yeah, maybe you need to think about that, about what I need, what the organisation needs.
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And maybe put it in a risk register if that's how Emma and I would do it.
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But to help you think about what controls you currently put in place, and are you genuinely putting those controls in place? If you're feeling like things are getting out of control, how can you tighten it up? How can you maintain it? And sometimes, you know, you don't actually need to leave, you just need to do a little bit of a reset and, or you need to ask the right questions in your appraisal.
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Um, you know, if you feel like your career's stagnating a little bit, you- maybe you need to think about how you're gonna prepare for your next appraisal.
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I also think, and I've said before, I'm sure, that healthy organisations do benefit from turnover in staff.
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If we were all moving around, if, if teachers moved around more and, and school business leaders moved around more, the sector, the system as a whole would be much healthier because we are all sharing skills and, and moving along and we start something new with, with renewed vigour and motivation inevitably.
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It is easy to become a little bit sort of set in your ways.
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There's that saying, isn't it, "Don't sit too long in a comfortable chair," who I think is Jake Humphrey, but I don't know whether he coined it from somebody else.
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Okay.
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So in terms of then development and not getting too comfy in your chair- Mm if, yeah, if I want to progress from being that operational leader to being more of a systems thinker, what kind of things can I do? I think one of the key things is that you don't actually have to have the job title that says that you're a systems leader.
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You don't even necessarily need to be in the SLT.
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I think it's, it's sometimes it's a way of thinking.
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It's not necessarily where you are in the hierarchy.
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It's your way of thinking.
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It's the opportunities that you take with networking.
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It's the, the collaboration that you can be involved with, either receiving or giving.
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And I suppose, yeah, looking outside.
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Looking outside of your current school.
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Thinking about solutions that might be a- outside your school, or thinking about solutions that could help others outside your school.
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You know, and when someone asks you to write a case study about something, i.e.,
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if the UKSSN Ops Group asks you to write a case study about something amazing you're doing with sustainability, please do write it.
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That's an example of system leadership, isn't it? I think it's about seeing, not seeing your job through, just through your function, to not just seeing, right, I'm the school business leader, this is my job, this is what I do.
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But actually seeing the function and the jobs you do through the organisation.
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What is the benefit of you, for example, doing the budget? What is the benefit of you managing the estates? And looking at it from a, a, a sort of wider angle, and all those, how those pieces in connect, interconnect, as we talked about at the beginning.
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And, bringing the right people together within your team so that you are left to lead them, and not doing all of the doing, and you can continue with the strategic piece that is so important.
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And I think sometimes to move from that operational bit to the strategic bit, it's actually taking that step back, what patterns am I seeing? What's, what is in front of me right now? What am I trying to solve? What problem is it that I'm trying to solve? What problem is it that I can't solve because I haven't got to the root cause of the problem yet as well? So it's sort of lifting your head out of that the daily task and reflecting on that task, I think.
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Obviously joining professional networks is another good thing for for school business leaders who want to become more system system leaders.
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And I think I kn- I know from a lot of SBMs and, uh, CFOs and COOs I speak to you know, Emma and I have asked people to, to join us on panels at risk- risky business and things like that, and people are like, "Oh, no.
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Gosh, no, I'm not an expert in this."
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Well, do you know what? None of us are experts in any of it.
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We don't have to be the expert.
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None of us are claiming to be experts either.
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But share what you do know, because that could help fill a gap in someone else's knowledge.
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At what point would anyone say that they're an expert in something? You don't, I think that's You can't wait, just do.
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And often I think actually, isn't it, there's something about the, some of the better advice comes from that person who's just ahead of you.
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You don't always necessarily want to hear from the person who's been doing it for 20 years, and it's all completely natural to them and everything else.
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The person who is a year or two years ahead of you, "Oh, I did," or, "I did that thing last term, and this is how I, I found it," that's just as or if not more helpful, isn't it? Absolutely.
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And also I think you know, Emma and I are both mentors as well, and actually when you're in that position of, there's a confidentiality obviously around it as well, but you're supporting somebody with their leadership, you learn lots from them, and it helps you reflect.
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So it's, it's not, again, it's not a one-way thing, it's a two-way thing.
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You are then building understanding and, and interest and knowledge, I suppose, just by mentoring somebody else, supporting somebody else.
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I think, um, one of the risks about system leadership is that others might think you're not focusing on the task that they want you to focus on.
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Ooh, interesting.
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So I think that's something to bear in mind and to have that balance about the, the relationship about what you're giving and what you're receiving back and and also be able to chase back the impact it's gonna have on your own work or your own thinking.
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So that, that's something to be mindful of.
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That there are people out there go, "I hate networking, can't stand that, don't like going to conferences, don't, don't get anything from that."
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That's fine, but also don't then knock someone else who does get uh, something from that experience.
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Yes, or some- we can get so caught up in I've got so much to do, I can't take the time out to go and do that thing.
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Um, but actually taking the time out to go along to that meeting might well mean, yeah, you might meet someone who's also doing that and can help you with it, or you might get an idea, or you might just get a bit of thinking time and a sense of perspective.
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Oh, actually, why don't, I can just do this rather than plow on with everything.
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Yeah.
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Definitely.
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So are we convinced that systems leadership can be exciting now, or is it still all very serious? Yeah, it does feel like a serious thing, doesn't it? Yeah.
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And does it have to be? Does system leadership have to be serious? I suppose there is a bit.
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Well, there is, 'cause if it's your reputation, if you're representing an organisation to another and you're not being taken seriously- It depends how you separate, depends how you separate professional and serious.
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You can be professional, but at the same time not completely serious about things.
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But do you think that, that element of seriousness could put some people off, or that...
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Or actually the fear of saying the wrong thing, that reputation part, saying the wrong thing or advising someone and the consequences that follow are different from the consequences that followed from the advice when they when they acted out in their own setting.
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Do you think that puts some people off from being a system leader? Well, I mean, I think one of the things you talked earlier about 6.123
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in the DSBM and we often find this one is quite challenging.
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I think I'm talking about the right one where the s- the question asks you to look at data and and identify inconsistencies between functions and departments.
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So that, that is generally a, a one big question about this and it's quite a tricky question to answer because unless you are a systems leader, because if you are just looking at, let's take an example that's often used, attendance.
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It's mu- much easier to look what's the attendance like in reception, what's the attendance like in year one and year two, what's the attendance like between free school mealers and non-free school mealers, for example.
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So that sort of data is readily available, but what the question asks you to do, which is, I think, much more of a system leadership question is, is in gathering that data, what are the inconsistencies? So it might be that, for ex- an example we often use is that the teacher might struggle to fill in a register before the deadline for various reasons, which we all, uh, know about.
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And therefore, the attendance officer then has difficulty in, in in calling home, for example and there might be a, a sort of mismatch in there and you might find if you look at the data that 95% of the time you don't hit your agreed- outcomes because of these inconsistencies in, in how data's recorded and, and the timings and all that sort of thing.
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And that's what it's asking you to do.
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Think of, think about that.
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So what I'm trying to say in a roundabout fashion is that, uh, systems leadership is, is recognizing that attendance for example is not just about attendance.
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It- it, there is a wider work and wider remit around attendance in a school that has a knock-on effect of lots of different areas.
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And recognizing that those all need to work together in order for attendance to be the most successful is really important for the school business leader and the systems leader.
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But you will find that school business leaders are doing this automatically without realizing that they're talk- they are doing systems leadership.
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Yeah, I agree.
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And actually, just some of the, the key verbs in the DSBM program are important here, aren't they? Like describe, that's probably when you are a operational leader.
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You're just describing what you're doing.
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The assessing part of it is when you start beginning to think a little bit like a systems leader, that you are really focusing on the why, on the how and trying to determine how you can make things better, and that is an example in a nutshell, isn't it, of what a systems leader is doing.
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Really, yes.
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I think, no, thank you.
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Given us lots to think about and I hope we just inspire people to, to think about their roles a bit differently or consider the things they are doing maybe in their jobs already differently and where else they can add value and make a difference.
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Thank you.
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Thank you, Liz.
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I wanna know when we're gonna start talking about the history of filing cabinets.
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You know- Yeah Well, I can't promise any further enlightenment on the history of filing cabinets, but I hope that our reflections on systems leadership have been helpful.
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If so, do let us know in the comments, and remember to subscribe so that you can keep up to date with future episodes.
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Thank you again to Emma Gray and Helen Burge, our Unbound SBLs, and thank you for listening.
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Be back with you soon.
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Yeah.
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Well, no, I was gonna say just a quick one before we start.
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I was gonna say, this morning I was...
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I went for an early morning swim with my sister.
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We go to a local lake, which is really lovely, really good for the wellbeing.
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But anyway, I was tell- I was telling her, she said, "What are you doing today?" I said, "Oh, I'm, I'm recording a podcast on systems leadership," and literally I may as well have said I was talking about the history of filing cabinets.
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She just sort of turned away and carried on swimming.
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And I thought, "Oh, yeah, it's not the most exciting, is it?" But it did lead me to think about the language around system leadership and how we...
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So introducing it and, and how we talk about it today I think is gonna be really, really key.
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Anyway, I'll let you do your introduction.
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Thank you, Emma.
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Hello and welcome back to the Creating Value in Schools podcast with me, Liz Worthen, where we talk about ways to work more sustainably in schools and flourish in our roles.
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And yes, today I'm joined by Unbound SBLs Emma Gray and Helen Burge to tackle a serious-sounding topic: systems leadership, or, how school business leaders can make that shift from operational expert to strategic thinker, from indispensable doer to influential leader.
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Okay.
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First, what do we mean by systems leadership? Over to Emma.
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I think school business leaders particularly are systems leaders.
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They don't get up in the morning and think, "Right, I'm gonna do some systems leadership today."
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But they, they do see the bigger picture, and they do see how everything interconnects.
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So they're, they, because they are responsible for such a wide variety of, of roles within the school they will be seeing all, how all of these bits connect.
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So how the finance links to the curriculum, and how, you know, technology links to outcomes.
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And all of these things really is systems leadership and how do all of these functions contribute to what the, the school trust organisation is trying to achieve? I see it that they're not just trying to make their own school, their own trust better, but they're trying to make the education system better.
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That's a s- a very simple version of what system leadership is.
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And I think also in our roles, not just for school business leaders but for, uh, for other educational leaders, it's also system leadership across multiple systems.
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So, you know, CAMS, NHS But, you know, there it's sometimes it spreads beyond the education system as well, which is quite exciting But I think we probably just need to focus today on what system leadership means within the education system.
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It goes back a little bit to strategy.
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What are we trying to achieve here? What, what outcomes are we looking for? Who else does this affect? You know, it's, it's, it often goes, you're right, outside the boundaries of the school.
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But h- having an influence on systems leadership within your own setting is a really important place to start, I would say.
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And then if you're part of a, a wider organisation, whether that be a federation or a local authority or a academy trust and influencing the systems that work sort of outside your immediate setting is also system leadership.
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So the influence you have over what happens in other schools in your trust, for example is school business leaders making changes and improving systems leadership, and they often don't see that's what they're doing.
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I also think it's about an individual thinking, "How do I stop this problem occurring at somewhere else?" And we see that, don't we, in case studies and or unfortunately we see it sometimes on the front page of Schools Week.
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You know, there's an awful issue and we all look at it and respond re- you know, an emotional reaction about, "Crikey, how are we gonna stop that from happening in our place?" So I think it's, uh, it is about how you can share positives, but also how you can try and prevent things from reoccurring.
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So yes, so if I'm, so I'm a school business manager, perhaps say in an individual school, what is, what's the difference between me being a kind of operational leader and me being a systems leader? What kind of things would I be doing differently? I think as an operational leader, you are delivering, you're solving problems, you're managing, you're keeping the organisation going with the systems that are already in place.
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Whereas I think as a systems leader within an organisation, you might be reviewing, updating, maybe creating some new standard operating procedures for the operational leaders to then implement.
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As simple as that really, isn't it? That a systems leader is probably creating the conditions for an operational leader to, to work within.
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We see it, Helen and I see it a lot in our work as DSBM tutors that, that often when you've come down a l- a little way down the modules with a DSBM learner, and they suddenly start to see the interconnectedness between, I don't know, the risk register and their budget plan and, and other documents they've got, and they suddenly see that actually the value of this is because it informs that, which means that this person can challenge me, and it becomes a complete circle of that systems leadership.
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How are we, how are we improving? What hap- what happens elsewhere in the organisation if I make this change? Um, and we talk quite a bit about change leadership and how, how interesting and, and motivating that can be to really, You know, my old CEO used to talk about leaving a legacy and what actually is his tenure going to be remembered for.
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During that time, what did we do to move the school on? So what, not only what happens in, within the organisation if I make this change, but how does that, how does what I'm doing contribute to the organisation as a whole, or even the sector as a whole in what I'm trying to, in what we're all trying to achieve.
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Why would anybody want to do it? I mean, that's really what I always enjoyed in, in my role is that strategic thinking out a little bit outside the box, seeing that how roles connect, pulling teams together to make one thing happen, which really stepped us forward.
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I think, Emma, what you were saying about our DSBM learners is, yeah, is, is right.
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It- that, that moment when rather than doing what they've always done, they've taken a step back, and they've then become curious.
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To quote Ted Lasso, "Be curious."
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And actually that curiosity A, about, you know, really understanding maybe what the data is telling you within your own organisation and then comparing it with another organisation.
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Why is it different? Try to understand that.
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What can I learn from that process? What can I now put in place within my own school as a result? Or what do I need to share with that other school that they could learn from us? So I think it's that that, yeah, the, the ability to become curious.
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So not just do but to, to, to look and try and understand a little bit more.
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Ted Lasso, sort of way of thinking is be a goldfli- fish, isn't it? Be a goldfish and, you know, forget what's happened and just keep moving on.
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And I think school business leaders really need to keep doing that because they r- we do inevitably get knocked back.
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There are lots of things going on, and we might not hit all of our to-do list, but to be a goldfish and to keep moving forward and not remembering everything that's gone on behind you is, is a really good learning.
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I think also to carry on with our Ted Lasso appreciation, Ted has got a lot of humility, hasn't he? He recognises that he doesn't have all the answers.
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He leans into other people's expertise and skillsets, and enthusiasm, and and, makes the most of that.
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So I think there's, as a system leader, you do have to recognise that you don't have all the answers, but you're going to find them out from somewhere else, and you're going to recognise, uh, another leader who might not currently see themself as a system leader, and connect with them and learn from them.
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And I think there's something really great about opening up those sort of opportunities via networking.
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You know, that's a great one, isn't it? Mm-hmm.
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You know, just saying to somebody, "Well, that's a really good idea," you can see their face change, and you just think, "Wow, has no one ever told you you've had a good idea before?" 'Cause that's some reaction that you've just shared with me.
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Encouraging people to flourish in their roles is what we're all about at Creating Value in Schools.
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For ongoing insights, tips, and resources delivered straight to your inbox, sign up for our fortnightly newsletter.
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Link in the show notes or description.
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You'll find other useful resources there too, including information about the DSBM, or to give it its full title, The Diploma for School Business Managers.
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Coming up next, we have a dilemma from a listener who's wondering about making an exit, and we'll be talking about the value of personal risk registers and the wisdom of Nanny McPhee.
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Now back to the show.
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Okay, maybe this is a good moment to actually bring in another listener dilemma.
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'Cause it kind of touches on valuing yourself, the value you bring to your role, which we talked about in our last episode.
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And yeah, but also where, where can you have influence, and where can you best position yourself? Anyway, so this school business leader has been offered a more senior role with better pay in another organisation.
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They are concerned as their departure would create significant challenges for their current school.
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Do you stay out of loyalty, or leave for your own development and sanity? I used to when I was having tough times if I, or if I was having tough times, not when, if I was having tough times at work, I would c- sometimes come home and offload to my husband, who would listen, uh, very patiently all the way through and, and then say, "But isn't that your job?" And that, that remind- that reminded me of that, because it's your job to make sure you leave your team, your department in a place where they can manage without you.
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That is your job at the end of the day.
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It's that succ- whole succession planning and, being able to leave sweep the sheds having everything clear and tidy, ready for, either somebody to take on temporarily while if you happen to be off sick, or if you move, then somebody else can, can pick up your role.
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So basically perhaps this isn't as gentle as as it should be, but Get yourself to a, a in a position where you can leave.
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And we get very possessive of our jobs, don't we? Because, this is my role.
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I really love my job, and I can't imagine anybody else doing it.
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But we're not being a good leader if we're doing that.
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Being indispensable is not good leadership.
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Yeah, and I think there's also something about no organisation, no school should be relying on someone who feels like that, who's literally sacrificing their own wellbeing, maybe their career aspirations and development opportunities in order to keep the school ticking over how it currently is.
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So, you know, we can't have schools relying on that.
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So it's probably a very...
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It's not gonna be a long-term solution for this, this SBL if they don't, if they stay in their school, because they're probably gonna be prone to burnout, frustration, that sort of switching off mentality, you know, not caring as much.
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No one wants to be like that.
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No one needs to be like that.
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And something that Emma and I have been talking about recently, obviously is risk management.
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It's, it's not gonna surprise you, I'm gonna talk about risk registers here, but about the idea of having your own personal risk register.
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So if you are, you know, a failure to to adjust your work diary or to to have planned adequate CPD for the year or something like that, which could lead to career stagnation or could lead to burnout or whatever the, the consequences are.
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If you actually think about your own personal risk register and what are you trying to protect yourself against, what controls have you got in place currently? Literally, what controls have you got in place about how you're gonna prevent yourself from getting risk burnout, or how you're gonna prevent work-life balance, poor work-life balance.
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So have you got enough controls? Do you need some more mitigations? You know- Is it that this particular school business leader, Liz, as the-- it could be that other people are leaving, which, you know, if you've got a head teacher that you really enjoy working with and you know that they're coming up to retirement or that they're gonna retire in like twelve to eighteen months' time, so you're gonna carry on waiting until they leave before you then make a decision about your own career.
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Like, you know, is that is that a good thing? What's the impact gonna be on you in that, that amount of time? So you do have to think about the likelihood of things, the impact that, that can happen, but also what is in your control.
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So for that individual school business leader you said about staying out of loyalty is that actually gonna be the best thing for them? So yeah, I know we all wanna do a really good job, and we all feel very strongly, which is why we all work in education rather than some corporate organisation.
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But I think we have to think about ourselves as well.
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I think that's really true.
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Thank you, yes.
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Yes, 'cause I was thinking too how I feel like education is the kind of world, isn't it, where we, we're doing it because we care, and so y- those feelings of loyalty can really come to the fore.
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You think, "I need to take care of these people, but what about this and what about that?" But I think you're also really right, but the risk is then that actually, you know, you don't enjoy your job as much, so maybe you're not doing a great job anyway.
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And ultimately it's not gonna be the best thing for you or even for the organisation.
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And organisations change over time.
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People, different people come in at different points in their careers and things move on and change.
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And actually maybe, you know, a bit like it's Is it Nanny McPhee? Uh, what's the quote about Nanny McPhee? We've got lots of little TV references here.
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It's as if we spent all summer watching telly, which we've not.
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But, you know, she's only gonna be there as long as you need her.
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She's there.
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I'm gonna have to get the quote.
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I'm gonna have to look it up 'cause it's gonna annoy me.
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What it is, what Nanny McPhee says is, "When you need me but do not want me, then I have to stay.
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When you want me but no longer need me, then I have to go."
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Ooh.
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So- That's quite deep, isn't it? Yeah.
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That is quite deep.
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Quite deep for a summer's afternoon.
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Uh, but yeah, maybe you need to think about that, about what I need, what the organisation needs.
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And maybe put it in a risk register if that's how Emma and I would do it.
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But to help you think about what controls you currently put in place, and are you genuinely putting those controls in place? If you're feeling like things are getting out of control, how can you tighten it up? How can you maintain it? And sometimes, you know, you don't actually need to leave, you just need to do a little bit of a reset and, or you need to ask the right questions in your appraisal.
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Um, you know, if you feel like your career's stagnating a little bit, you- maybe you need to think about how you're gonna prepare for your next appraisal.
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I also think, and I've said before, I'm sure, that healthy organisations do benefit from turnover in staff.
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If we were all moving around, if, if teachers moved around more and, and school business leaders moved around more, the sector, the system as a whole would be much healthier because we are all sharing skills and, and moving along and we start something new with, with renewed vigour and motivation inevitably.
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It is easy to become a little bit sort of set in your ways.
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There's that saying, isn't it, "Don't sit too long in a comfortable chair," who I think is Jake Humphrey, but I don't know whether he coined it from somebody else.
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Okay.
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So in terms of then development and not getting too comfy in your chair- Mm if, yeah, if I want to progress from being that operational leader to being more of a systems thinker, what kind of things can I do? I think one of the key things is that you don't actually have to have the job title that says that you're a systems leader.
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You don't even necessarily need to be in the SLT.
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I think it's, it's sometimes it's a way of thinking.
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It's not necessarily where you are in the hierarchy.
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It's your way of thinking.
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It's the opportunities that you take with networking.
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It's the, the collaboration that you can be involved with, either receiving or giving.
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And I suppose, yeah, looking outside.
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Looking outside of your current school.
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Thinking about solutions that might be a- outside your school, or thinking about solutions that could help others outside your school.
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You know, and when someone asks you to write a case study about something, i.e.,
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if the UKSSN Ops Group asks you to write a case study about something amazing you're doing with sustainability, please do write it.
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That's an example of system leadership, isn't it? I think it's about seeing, not seeing your job through, just through your function, to not just seeing, right, I'm the school business leader, this is my job, this is what I do.
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But actually seeing the function and the jobs you do through the organisation.
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What is the benefit of you, for example, doing the budget? What is the benefit of you managing the estates? And looking at it from a, a, a sort of wider angle, and all those, how those pieces in connect, interconnect, as we talked about at the beginning.
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And, bringing the right people together within your team so that you are left to lead them, and not doing all of the doing, and you can continue with the strategic piece that is so important.
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And I think sometimes to move from that operational bit to the strategic bit, it's actually taking that step back, what patterns am I seeing? What's, what is in front of me right now? What am I trying to solve? What problem is it that I'm trying to solve? What problem is it that I can't solve because I haven't got to the root cause of the problem yet as well? So it's sort of lifting your head out of that the daily task and reflecting on that task, I think.
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Obviously joining professional networks is another good thing for for school business leaders who want to become more system system leaders.
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And I think I kn- I know from a lot of SBMs and, uh, CFOs and COOs I speak to you know, Emma and I have asked people to, to join us on panels at risk- risky business and things like that, and people are like, "Oh, no.
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Gosh, no, I'm not an expert in this."
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Well, do you know what? None of us are experts in any of it.
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We don't have to be the expert.
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None of us are claiming to be experts either.
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But share what you do know, because that could help fill a gap in someone else's knowledge.
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At what point would anyone say that they're an expert in something? You don't, I think that's You can't wait, just do.
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And often I think actually, isn't it, there's something about the, some of the better advice comes from that person who's just ahead of you.
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You don't always necessarily want to hear from the person who's been doing it for 20 years, and it's all completely natural to them and everything else.
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The person who is a year or two years ahead of you, "Oh, I did," or, "I did that thing last term, and this is how I, I found it," that's just as or if not more helpful, isn't it? Absolutely.
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And also I think you know, Emma and I are both mentors as well, and actually when you're in that position of, there's a confidentiality obviously around it as well, but you're supporting somebody with their leadership, you learn lots from them, and it helps you reflect.
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So it's, it's not, again, it's not a one-way thing, it's a two-way thing.
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You are then building understanding and, and interest and knowledge, I suppose, just by mentoring somebody else, supporting somebody else.
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I think, um, one of the risks about system leadership is that others might think you're not focusing on the task that they want you to focus on.
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Ooh, interesting.
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So I think that's something to bear in mind and to have that balance about the, the relationship about what you're giving and what you're receiving back and and also be able to chase back the impact it's gonna have on your own work or your own thinking.
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So that, that's something to be mindful of.
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That there are people out there go, "I hate networking, can't stand that, don't like going to conferences, don't, don't get anything from that."
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That's fine, but also don't then knock someone else who does get uh, something from that experience.
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Yes, or some- we can get so caught up in I've got so much to do, I can't take the time out to go and do that thing.
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Um, but actually taking the time out to go along to that meeting might well mean, yeah, you might meet someone who's also doing that and can help you with it, or you might get an idea, or you might just get a bit of thinking time and a sense of perspective.
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Oh, actually, why don't, I can just do this rather than plow on with everything.
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Yeah.
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Definitely.
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So are we convinced that systems leadership can be exciting now, or is it still all very serious? Yeah, it does feel like a serious thing, doesn't it? Yeah.
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And does it have to be? Does system leadership have to be serious? I suppose there is a bit.
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Well, there is, 'cause if it's your reputation, if you're representing an organisation to another and you're not being taken seriously- It depends how you separate, depends how you separate professional and serious.
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You can be professional, but at the same time not completely serious about things.
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But do you think that, that element of seriousness could put some people off, or that...
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Or actually the fear of saying the wrong thing, that reputation part, saying the wrong thing or advising someone and the consequences that follow are different from the consequences that followed from the advice when they when they acted out in their own setting.
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Do you think that puts some people off from being a system leader? Well, I mean, I think one of the things you talked earlier about 6.123
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in the DSBM and we often find this one is quite challenging.
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I think I'm talking about the right one where the s- the question asks you to look at data and and identify inconsistencies between functions and departments.
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So that, that is generally a, a one big question about this and it's quite a tricky question to answer because unless you are a systems leader, because if you are just looking at, let's take an example that's often used, attendance.
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It's mu- much easier to look what's the attendance like in reception, what's the attendance like in year one and year two, what's the attendance like between free school mealers and non-free school mealers, for example.
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So that sort of data is readily available, but what the question asks you to do, which is, I think, much more of a system leadership question is, is in gathering that data, what are the inconsistencies? So it might be that, for ex- an example we often use is that the teacher might struggle to fill in a register before the deadline for various reasons, which we all, uh, know about.
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And therefore, the attendance officer then has difficulty in, in in calling home, for example and there might be a, a sort of mismatch in there and you might find if you look at the data that 95% of the time you don't hit your agreed- outcomes because of these inconsistencies in, in how data's recorded and, and the timings and all that sort of thing.
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And that's what it's asking you to do.
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Think of, think about that.
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So what I'm trying to say in a roundabout fashion is that, uh, systems leadership is, is recognizing that attendance for example is not just about attendance.
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It- it, there is a wider work and wider remit around attendance in a school that has a knock-on effect of lots of different areas.
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And recognizing that those all need to work together in order for attendance to be the most successful is really important for the school business leader and the systems leader.
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But you will find that school business leaders are doing this automatically without realizing that they're talk- they are doing systems leadership.
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Yeah, I agree.
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And actually, just some of the, the key verbs in the DSBM program are important here, aren't they? Like describe, that's probably when you are a operational leader.
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You're just describing what you're doing.
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The assessing part of it is when you start beginning to think a little bit like a systems leader, that you are really focusing on the why, on the how and trying to determine how you can make things better, and that is an example in a nutshell, isn't it, of what a systems leader is doing.
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Really, yes.
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I think, no, thank you.
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Given us lots to think about and I hope we just inspire people to, to think about their roles a bit differently or consider the things they are doing maybe in their jobs already differently and where else they can add value and make a difference.
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Thank you.
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Thank you, Liz.
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I wanna know when we're gonna start talking about the history of filing cabinets.
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You know- Yeah Well, I can't promise any further enlightenment on the history of filing cabinets, but I hope that our reflections on systems leadership have been helpful.
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If so, do let us know in the comments, and remember to subscribe so that you can keep up to date with future episodes.
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Thank you again to Emma Gray and Helen Burge, our Unbound SBLs, and thank you for listening.
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Be back with you soon.
