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Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
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If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
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Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
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So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
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Hi friends, and welcome to season two of Beside Every Calling, a safe space for those walking beside a calling where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost in it.
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I'm Debbie Daniels.
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And I'm Jill Barber.
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And we are really happy you're here.
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We've had a little bit of a break, and we hope you've listened to the episodes all the way one through twelve in season one.
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And I do want to point out that there are discussion tabletop questions for discussion at in the show notes of each episode.
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So if one episode you're like, oh, I would love to talk about that with a friend or another ministry spouse, just know that we leave some questions there.
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So, Jill, we're on to season two, which high five.
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Hi five.
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Yes.
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And I am so excited to see you.
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It's been a little bit of a break.
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I know.
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What's bringing you joy these days?
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Fall.
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We're heading into fall, and it is my favorite time of year.
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And just I love when there's a brisk feel in the air, and I can put a nice little sweater on and just and not sweat to death because of life changes.
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It's wonderful.
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I just love fall.
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How about you?
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Probably fall is right around the corner, too.
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Still hot in Idaho right now, but it will be pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin, everything, which I love, but I also love the mental reset that fall is like a fresh start.
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It feels like, oh, and just an exciting time.
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As much as I love summer and the sun and swimming, I agree with you.
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Fall is probably my most favorite season.
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So this episode, we are supposed to discuss how we have stayed positive about ministry after over three decades.
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First of all, that's a really great question because I don't know how much longer we have in ministry.
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We're gonna go until the Lord takes us home or we retire or whatever.
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You know how that works.
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But I wish I had just a blueprint of how to do it.
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I the Lord has helped us in a couple ways.
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But one reason I know I want to stay, why I want to stay positive, is because I run into a handful of people that kind of around our age or season in life, there's just a little bit of sourness to them.
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Now, that that can come from hurt that was not their fault, but they just haven't really gotten over it, or expectations that weren't met, or just a lot of things that people that are at sour.
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And Sam and I, our goal is to not sour.
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But I will say the Lord gave us a couple practical things, truthfully, on top of staying in the word.
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That that has been a game changer, of course.
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And I would say this, I'm speaking for my husband here, but he's in the word whether he's preaching or not.
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You have to do your research for your sermons and all that, but there's an everyday existence for him, like for me.
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And that's a wonderful thing to help us to stay positive.
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But we were pastoring in at one of our churches, and we never had a sabbatical before, and we were just burned out, just really never knew what burnout was because you just when you're all in, you just go and go and give it all you got.
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And our church bored so beautifully, and it was around the time where the manual in the Church of the Nazarene said that you can have a sabbatical, and they gave us one.
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And that that saved us, I think.
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That particular where what was happening in our world, what was happening with the church, nothing horrible, but they were just gracious, they were actually ministering to us.
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And so we took that sabbatical.
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It wasn't too long, I don't know, maybe four or five weeks.
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So that's not huge, like some people get big sabbaticals or whatever, but where ours was just that small one, but it was life-changing.
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And so I say that because that's a turning point of not that we were sour before that, we were happy and owl about it.
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But again, when you hit burnout, you can't, there's just nothing to give sometimes.
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You're just depleted.
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So the sabbatical is a great thing.
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And honestly, we just love to laugh.
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I don't know how to say it, other than that.
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If we can't laugh, that it's not a good day.
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And sometimes there are days where it is hard to laugh, right?
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When there's big things going on and your heart just aches at a level that there's you just can't even think about laughing.
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But there's laughter in our world a lot.
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And pretty much on a daily basis, we're laughing about something or just the laugh.
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Something is just beautiful or just whatever.
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Laughter has really helped us.
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The third thing I would say to, we learned this from other ministry couples that we were just watching because they weren't souring and they were doing great and thriving in ministry.
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And they talked to us and they would say, okay, what do you have to look forward to?
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Whether it's a vacation, whether it's a long weekend, whether it's going to visit your favorite aunt or something like that.
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What is it in your world and on your calendar?
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What's next for you?
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And we were like, oh, I I don't know.
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We didn't have an answer.
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And so we we have and are trying to do our best with having that in our calendar.
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Not that we don't love the in-between and all the work and all that kind of stuff because we do, but there's just something that gets your heart singing and you get a little bit of excitement about because you really, really, really want to do this thing that's coming up in a month and a half, or in six months we're gonna go do this, or on next weekend, or whatever it is that fits in your world.
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That has really helped us.
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So those are just practical things.
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Yeah.
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Uh, but what about you?
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How have you stayed so positive?
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I think also Scott and I look for laughter, like you do in everything.
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And our he's he is a man that lives in his head, and I'm a person that speaks before they think.
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It's not it's not always good.
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And so we have found a lot of laughter in our different personalities.
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Yeah, but thinking about it, I know I re-listen to all of our old episodes, and I say this so much, but find your people.
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I've said that so much.
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But again, I think for us, it's very similar to you.
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I looked for people who loved ministry and didn't just talk bad about it.
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I want to say just leave and go do something else.
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There's a hundred ways to make more money.
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If you're thinking this is for money, go do something else.
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But it was finding people who loved ministry and taught showed us how to do it well.
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And it's not that there aren't hard pieces we've discussed in season one.
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Yeah, there were really hard times, but I've always thought it can either make you bitter or better.
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And no matter what someone said at church, there's always a little bit of truth.
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And I felt as leaders, we needed to be like Nordstrom, like listen, say thank you for your words, and then move on.
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Once in a while, you want to say, What?
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You're a nut job.
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But mostly right, we don't do that.
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No, it's very rare.
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But I just think finding our people was key.
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And that Scott and I do find humor, like when we travel now, we laugh way more than we don't.
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Yeah.
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And sometimes you're like, What was that?
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And uh, so I do think there's always something God's showing us, and I've always looked for that too.
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And then I will say, unfortunately, we have had one sabbatical.
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We didn't, it was two weeks.
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We were on week two, I think, when Scott got elected to his current position.
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And so we were having our first ever sabbatical, and because he's always been in the university and the church, it just never that seven-year mark never lined up for both.
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Yeah.
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So we couldn't do that.
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So I do think that is a key, though, to not have burnout.
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And even if it's a small time, we are taking a huge trip together for our anniversary.
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What was really for our 60th birthday, is why we said, let's set this aside.
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But we couldn't do it during that time.
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And this big trip, and that's something that I'm really looking forward to.
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And one part of it is a cruise, and it's kind of a sabbatical in the sense of we shut everything off.
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Because I think it's important to be reminded, we get to decide do you want to participate in God's story or not?
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It's gonna happen with or without you.
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If you think someone's salvation is up to you, let it go.
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It's not.
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Yeah, the Church of the Nazarene is gonna go on with or without you.
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I'm sorry to say, the whole kingdom of God is gonna go on with or without us.
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Yeah.
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And we get to choose to be a part.
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Like, that's so crazy.
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Why would you let us be apart?
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And I love getting to be a part of that creativity of his.
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I don't know why he included humans, but he did.
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And I find it absolutely joyful.
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And for me, the best part of ministry is absolutely watching someone's life transformed.
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It's just, there's nothing like it.
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And I, to this day, it I love it so much that I just want to keep doing it, like you said, forever.
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I can't wait till the day where Scott's retired where we get to decide where we want to show up and when we want to show up.
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But I don't er I plan on doing ministry till my last breath because I absolutely love getting to be a part of watching God do what He can only do.
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Yeah.
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And you know, I was just thinking many, many years ago, a thing that I had to overcome.
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And I think it was just trying to learn my who I was in ministry and what we were doing and all that kind of stuff.
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But I started doing this comparison thing in my head, sometimes at district assemblies, or sometimes when we were just together with other pastors and listening to their lives and their stories and going, oh my word, I I that that's they're doing great.
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I don't we're never going to be that or whatever.
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And that that little comparison thing that I know is not from the Lord was in my head at a very young age, so to speak, in ministry.
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And so you kind of just look over.
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It's kind of like going to the mall when we had malls.
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And you went in and you're kind of like, oh, you can just kind of feel better if you compare yourself.
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You walk down and look at everybody, you know, people watch or something.
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Yeah.
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But when you ministry watch, you're going to, it's not going to go well.
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It's not a good place to be.
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Uh joy does not spring from that, is what I'm trying to say.
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And so I just literally had to let that go and say, you know, God, we are who we are.
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You placed us where you placed us.
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We started in a church that for the first Sunday had 20 people to come out and see their new pastor.
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And the Lord taught us and grew us, and it was just what we needed to be, where we needed to be at the time for who we are and what we were learning.
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And so the that little, I just say that in case anybody's listening and maybe they might be fighting that.
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I get it.
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I that and every once in a while that slips back in, you know, and we can't let that.
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That's why being in the scripture and being in prayer is so important because God is the one who tells us who we are and gives us our joy and shows us what's great in life.
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When he created laughter, so I think he made me just the laugh kind of thing, is especially the most inappropriate times.
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I think that is so good because that might be the number one thing in ministry that stills your joy is comparison.
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When you compare yourself not only to other churches down the street or one ministry in church is going better than the other, depending where you are.
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And I it made me my mind went back to Satan in the sense of that's his very first trick, right?
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With at with Adam and Eve.
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She focused on one apple.
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You focus on the one thing instead of the 90% of the beautiful garden you could have and all the things God is doing, you're focusing on that one.
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And if he can just keep you there, then you don't enjoy the rest of the garden.
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Yeah.
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And there's so many beautiful parts of ministry.
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And I guarantee, in all of our lives, there's so many beautiful seasons that you just and sometimes you do have dark night of the soul, which I don't know if you've ever heard, but that's a real thing where it is dark and awful.
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And I couldn't, it was horrible.
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And I didn't even know I was in it until I was in it.
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And knowing, reading though, and people sharing their stories about that.
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I know that's a swift left turn there, but yeah, that's all right.
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There are really dark, horrible seasons that you do need help to get through.
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And if one of our listeners is there, I don't want you to think Jill and I are saying, Oh, it's all joy.
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Uh we have to both be in good seasons right now.
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But we want to encourage you that you need to get through this and you will.
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God is so faithful.
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You just keep doing what you know is right to do, even when you're not sure why you're doing it.
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And you just keep doing the next right thing and the next right thing and the next right thing.
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And it's baby steps in ministry.
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Every time I've wanted the big picture, God has reminded me that's not how he likes to lead his leaders.
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He likes to lead his people day by day, step by step.
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And sometimes for me, it's truly minute by minute, especially when we're overseas.
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Like I say, Lord, put on blinders, help me be totally focused on these people today and not the other things.
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And then there's such joy in it because this is what he has for me today, right now.
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And I would say to people listening too, if you really want joy in ministry, focus on what is today?
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What is God doing in your life today, and how can you share that?
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And isn't it interesting when you're talked about the dark night of the soul?
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I every time there's an issue that I'm battling or just in my head, you know, all that kind of stuff, when I go to bed, it's front and forward in my head.
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And it's hard to let that go, isn't it?
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And isn't it interesting that just we have to battle that?
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That can't be what we go to sleep with.
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And that is why we started memorizing different scripture.
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And honestly, both Sam and I, when there's something like that and we our head hits the pillow, we have to start quoting scripture and eventually we'll fall asleep and that is gone.
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But it's just as always when our head hits, you know, that pillow and we're gonna go, oh, I'm so sleepy.
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It doesn't matter.
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That issue comes right to your head or to your mind, and and it's just that's a time.
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And I say that because if that happens to you, if you're listening, you're not the only one.
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And it's just we have to battle even right there.
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Yeah.
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And I love the scripture.
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And I actually had a really wise Christian counselor give me a piece of advice because I had something that we that I just couldn't get out of my head, and I'm still praying about it all the time.
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And she said, I just want you to open your hands, Debbie, and give it to God and say, Lord, I can't carry this anymore.
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Could you carry it tonight so my soul can sleep?
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And so literally, I physically at night give it to God and I can rest because he's gonna be awake anyways, and say, Lord, can you take this and I'm just giving it to you and I'm gonna sleep?
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And that really has helped me settle my mind down too, because there are seasons and times and things that just weigh so heavy, especially on ministry leaders, but on your personal life, that's mine right now.
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Something I've just my husband and I with our family are just praying through.
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And it's wow, I just have to keep giving it to God again and again and again and not let the enemy keep me focused on it, where I can't enjoy the 99% of beautifulness in my life.
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Yeah, that is so good.
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What books have you read to maybe help you have joy?
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Or is there any?
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I don't know.
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That wasn't even on our list to even talk about, but it just came to the show.
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She just do a total curveball.
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Well, actually, I do have one, and so you can't trick me today.
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Yeah, I'm gonna break that.
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I am not a poem reader.
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It'll surprise you with my personality that I don't sit down the end of poem, poetry reading all the time.
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But a friend has introduced me to it's called the generosity, a book of poems.
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And you just read it slowly and then read it again slowly and see what comes up in it.
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And I have found the spirit because I'm really bad at rest.
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I'm really great at doing, not so good at resting.
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And in this position, I really have to be able to turn off my mind and rest with the Lord when I get home, especially.
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And I travel with this book even, and it's been just a real beautiful piece for me.
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:27.600
And then another, if this is silly, but it for years, probably the last 25-30 years, I have only read books you underline.
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.200
I'm just, how can I get better?
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:30.480
How can this help me in ministry?
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:31.759
How can this help my spiritual life?
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:34.799
How can, and so, you know, I have a lot of people I love.
00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.519
I'm a fan of Mark Patterson, I'm a fan of Bob Goff, I'm a fan of anything.
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.240
Um, oh, his name just left my head.
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:43.440
Dallas Willard.
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.519
Those things I've read a ton of.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.960
But right now, I'm actually reading Christian novels.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.600
Yeah.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.120
And her last name is Gunn, and I can't even remember her first name.
00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:58.720
But I love reading those now to turn my mind off because you can't underline anything.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:04.319
Like I'm not trying to learn, and it's just helping me settle in my space, if you will.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:10.880
And it's still a beautiful story, but I do say I I'm loving reading these novels by her.
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:12.000
What about you?
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:13.599
That's a great question.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:14.720
There's a handful.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.039
First of all, I'm a Psalms reader girl.
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:18.240
I love the Psalms.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.480
I read one every morning because it's a part of the lectionary, of course.
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:27.519
And then I start praying the Psalms, but on a book level, other than the Bible, I love Dr.
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:28.480
Henry Cloud.
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:35.279
Now, I know it's more structural and practical kind of thing instead of what you're reading right there during these days.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:18:00.960
But the boundaries book, all of the boundaries books, I know I've mentioned that before, but those are those, let me just say, they give me boundaries, obviously, but they give me permission to only go so far and or to create or to not say no or to whatever I, as a woman and as a ministry spouse, I'm allowed to have boundaries.
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.839
I just don't have to be this open book to everybody.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:15.119
And that particular book, and I read a couple of them, he's got a few out there, but that gave me permission to go, oh, I can be joyful right here.
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:23.920
And I can set up my fence lines, you know, with maybe some people, or maybe with activities, or maybe with whatever it is.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:28.319
But that one was probably and still is a game changer.
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.720
I like to read Lisa Turkish too.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:35.680
She's got some books out there that I have underlined and post-it noted pretty much the entire thing.
00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:40.880
Uh, you know, um, that that just filled my soul with, oh, okay.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:45.279
I'm not the only one, so to speak, that has felt this or dealt with that.
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.880
And she's a beautiful way of coming back to the scripture that grounds you.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.000
And anyway, so that those are some just a couple.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:54.960
So some tools that they could add to the belt if you're interested.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:55.359
Yeah.
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.319
And I do think just as we close out this very first episode, again, welcome to season two.
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.160
But who you surround yourself with really matters, right?
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.039
I think you will become like the people you're with.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.440
So if you're with a group of people who are constantly saying, Can you believe the church did that?
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:12.640
Can you believe this?
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:16.640
You're gonna sit and wallow in that, and your whole life is gonna be so negative.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:23.599
You want to be people who like no offense, I'm gonna sound like we're being arrogant here, but in a sense, me and Jill, right?
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.839
We thought, man, no one talks about spouses, and this is so lonely.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:29.839
And we could have just whined about it, man.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:32.160
Can you believe the church does nothing for spouses?
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.519
And then I said, Jill, kettle, we're the church.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:36.880
We need nothing.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:37.279
Yeah.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:39.440
So we thought, okay, how do we do this?
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.640
And then figured it out.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.960
And literally, I'm still so proud of us in the sense of we had no we've heard a podcast.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.160
No, do you know the first time someone said we need I need a thumbnail?
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:51.440
I'm like, I have two thumbs.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:52.240
What's a thumbnail?
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:52.960
No, right?
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:53.359
Yeah.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.720
And I text you and we just start laughing and you just figure it out.
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.839
But I don't want to be the person that just whines about it.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:02.960
I want to be a part of the solution in every part of my life.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.759
I want to be moving forward with God.
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:11.440
And it is such a again, I go back to I can't believe he uses humans to do this.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.160
That he doesn't have to, but he chose to.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:30.720
And I can't believe he's using just two ladies like us that we've had different experiences in the church, and we just think, okay, no, we can talk about them because we realize we needed encouraged when we were there, and there wasn't those voices out there, or we couldn't find them or didn't know about them.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:40.559
So if we are the bridge for the next generation of people coming behind us to say, no, remember those loudmouth women that said that, whatever, that's that might be true.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:41.599
We can live this way.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.680
You know, we don't have to be so negative about ministry.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:47.759
There is so much joy in it.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.119
And if you don't feel that, you might be listening and you don't feel that, pray about it.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.119
Ask the Lord to fill you with his spirit and his joy.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:04.079
And little by little, just like you said, it might not be overnight and it might be, but just ask him to fill and he will.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.960
You just wait, hold on because it's coming.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:07.519
Yeah.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:11.920
And even this podcast, we hope that we are a tool in your tool belt.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.559
But if we're not your jam, don't listen again.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.920
Don't it's not a problem.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:17.519
We're definitely not for everybody.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:21.279
I'm not sure for anybody, and I'm not sure who's listening besides my aunt, I aunt Loretta.
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:30.319
But I do think I we are just trying to help people that we wished we could have had the help when we were in our 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s, and now we're 60.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:35.039
I was gonna say two midlife women, but my son Jonah always reminds me, Mom, you're way past midlife.
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:36.559
There's no way to be 120.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:37.440
Thanks for that.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.920
Yeah, he's completely right.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.000
I have no intention of being 120.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.920
So yeah, but ministry should be fun most of the time.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:50.240
Now, again, there are seasons that aren't, and you've got to have your people.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.480
I'm still I'm sorry, I can't get away from that.
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.359
No, that's good.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.599
But you've got to find those people that help you get to the next season.
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:03.200
And I think that Scott and I have always had those people that have helped us when we needed them.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:04.480
And yeah.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:22.640
And as we wrap this up for our first episode on season two, at the end of season two, somewhere along the line, we're going to answer some questions or thoughts that you all might have, or you, or maybe a topic you want us to chat on and see what we say about.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:28.480
Go ahead and email at us, email us at beside every calling at gmail.com.
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:32.240
And we would love to just gather those topics and kind of hit some.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.160
And one of the last episodes of the of season two, we'd love to see what you're thinking or what you have questions about.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:38.960
Absolutely.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.519
And I do want to say thank you to those that have reached out.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:48.079
We've had people from several countries, and it is so fun to know that we are helping, even if it's a tiny bit.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:48.559
Yeah.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:58.960
And we will keep doing this if we are moving the needle forward to help other spouses feel seen and get healthy and know that you have people out there that do understand the role that you're in.
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.920
But like Jill said, please do email us at besideverycalling at gmail.com.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:11.119
And also, if you want, at the end of all of the show notes, if you're listening to the podcast or watching on YouTube, we have something called Table Talk.
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:17.200
And every episode has questions where you can just a conversation starter for you and a friend.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:20.720
So go meet someone at a coffee shop and talk about it, watch the episode.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:26.799
Or if you happen to be another leader and want to do a Zoom call, say, hey, watch this episode and then let's talk about it.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:27.839
That's another way.
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:37.039
We're just trying to give you more tools out there to build healthy ministries and love the life beside the call because we don't need to be absorbed into it.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:41.680
We really should love walking beside our spouses, whatever that looks like.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:43.759
Any closing thought, Joe?
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.799
No, I again, I, you know, you say always find your people, and I love that so much.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.079
But I guess I keep going back to you're doing better than you think you are.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:52.559
Absolutely.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.319
And um, just hang in there.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.480
Hope you're joy-filled, and uh, and if you're not, you can be.
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.480
And uh, we're we're here for you.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:08.960
Thank you, friends, for listening to episode the first episode, it's really episode 13, but of season two in Beside Every Calling.
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:10.400
We are really glad you're here.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.359
And like Jill said, please help us spread the word.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:18.799
Share this with another ministry spouse or email us at beside everycalling at gmail.com.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:25.359
If this conversation felt a little too familiar, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.640
That's your sign.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.640
Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:37.680
And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:43.920
It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.039
We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.
00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:06.160
Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:15.279
If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:23.519
Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:27.600
So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:40.960
Hi friends, and welcome to season two of Beside Every Calling, a safe space for those walking beside a calling where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost in it.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:42.320
I'm Debbie Daniels.
00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:43.759
And I'm Jill Barber.
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.079
And we are really happy you're here.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:52.399
We've had a little bit of a break, and we hope you've listened to the episodes all the way one through twelve in season one.
00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:59.200
And I do want to point out that there are discussion tabletop questions for discussion at in the show notes of each episode.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:06.640
So if one episode you're like, oh, I would love to talk about that with a friend or another ministry spouse, just know that we leave some questions there.
00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:10.079
So, Jill, we're on to season two, which high five.
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Hi five.
00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:12.159
Yes.
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And I am so excited to see you.
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It's been a little bit of a break.
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I know.
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What's bringing you joy these days?
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:20.640
Fall.
00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:24.879
We're heading into fall, and it is my favorite time of year.
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And just I love when there's a brisk feel in the air, and I can put a nice little sweater on and just and not sweat to death because of life changes.
00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:35.840
It's wonderful.
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I just love fall.
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How about you?
00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:39.840
Probably fall is right around the corner, too.
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Still hot in Idaho right now, but it will be pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin, pumpkin, everything, which I love, but I also love the mental reset that fall is like a fresh start.
00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.079
It feels like, oh, and just an exciting time.
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As much as I love summer and the sun and swimming, I agree with you.
00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.120
Fall is probably my most favorite season.
00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:08.800
So this episode, we are supposed to discuss how we have stayed positive about ministry after over three decades.
00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:14.000
First of all, that's a really great question because I don't know how much longer we have in ministry.
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.840
We're gonna go until the Lord takes us home or we retire or whatever.
00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:18.800
You know how that works.
00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:24.000
But I wish I had just a blueprint of how to do it.
00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:26.560
I the Lord has helped us in a couple ways.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:43.199
But one reason I know I want to stay, why I want to stay positive, is because I run into a handful of people that kind of around our age or season in life, there's just a little bit of sourness to them.
00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:58.319
Now, that that can come from hurt that was not their fault, but they just haven't really gotten over it, or expectations that weren't met, or just a lot of things that people that are at sour.
00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.439
And Sam and I, our goal is to not sour.
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:08.560
But I will say the Lord gave us a couple practical things, truthfully, on top of staying in the word.
00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.439
That that has been a game changer, of course.
00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:17.520
And I would say this, I'm speaking for my husband here, but he's in the word whether he's preaching or not.
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:23.840
You have to do your research for your sermons and all that, but there's an everyday existence for him, like for me.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.439
And that's a wonderful thing to help us to stay positive.
00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:42.479
But we were pastoring in at one of our churches, and we never had a sabbatical before, and we were just burned out, just really never knew what burnout was because you just when you're all in, you just go and go and give it all you got.
00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:52.159
And our church bored so beautifully, and it was around the time where the manual in the Church of the Nazarene said that you can have a sabbatical, and they gave us one.
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.199
And that that saved us, I think.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:05.120
That particular where what was happening in our world, what was happening with the church, nothing horrible, but they were just gracious, they were actually ministering to us.
00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.039
And so we took that sabbatical.
00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:10.240
It wasn't too long, I don't know, maybe four or five weeks.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:18.480
So that's not huge, like some people get big sabbaticals or whatever, but where ours was just that small one, but it was life-changing.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.959
And so I say that because that's a turning point of not that we were sour before that, we were happy and owl about it.
00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:30.240
But again, when you hit burnout, you can't, there's just nothing to give sometimes.
00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:31.839
You're just depleted.
00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.839
So the sabbatical is a great thing.
00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.600
And honestly, we just love to laugh.
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:39.439
I don't know how to say it, other than that.
00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.160
If we can't laugh, that it's not a good day.
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.040
And sometimes there are days where it is hard to laugh, right?
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:52.560
When there's big things going on and your heart just aches at a level that there's you just can't even think about laughing.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:56.959
But there's laughter in our world a lot.
00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:03.360
And pretty much on a daily basis, we're laughing about something or just the laugh.
00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:05.680
Something is just beautiful or just whatever.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:07.360
Laughter has really helped us.
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:18.160
The third thing I would say to, we learned this from other ministry couples that we were just watching because they weren't souring and they were doing great and thriving in ministry.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:22.879
And they talked to us and they would say, okay, what do you have to look forward to?
00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:30.560
Whether it's a vacation, whether it's a long weekend, whether it's going to visit your favorite aunt or something like that.
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.040
What is it in your world and on your calendar?
00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:34.480
What's next for you?
00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:36.879
And we were like, oh, I I don't know.
00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:38.240
We didn't have an answer.
00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:45.040
And so we we have and are trying to do our best with having that in our calendar.
00:05:45.199 --> 00:06:05.600
Not that we don't love the in-between and all the work and all that kind of stuff because we do, but there's just something that gets your heart singing and you get a little bit of excitement about because you really, really, really want to do this thing that's coming up in a month and a half, or in six months we're gonna go do this, or on next weekend, or whatever it is that fits in your world.
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:07.040
That has really helped us.
00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:08.879
So those are just practical things.
00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:09.279
Yeah.
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:10.560
Uh, but what about you?
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:12.879
How have you stayed so positive?
00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:16.800
I think also Scott and I look for laughter, like you do in everything.
00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:23.120
And our he's he is a man that lives in his head, and I'm a person that speaks before they think.
00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.120
It's not it's not always good.
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.399
And so we have found a lot of laughter in our different personalities.
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:35.120
Yeah, but thinking about it, I know I re-listen to all of our old episodes, and I say this so much, but find your people.
00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.319
I've said that so much.
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:39.600
But again, I think for us, it's very similar to you.
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:44.160
I looked for people who loved ministry and didn't just talk bad about it.
00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.399
I want to say just leave and go do something else.
00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.160
There's a hundred ways to make more money.
00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:51.120
If you're thinking this is for money, go do something else.
00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:57.439
But it was finding people who loved ministry and taught showed us how to do it well.
00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.199
And it's not that there aren't hard pieces we've discussed in season one.
00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.399
Yeah, there were really hard times, but I've always thought it can either make you bitter or better.
00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:10.639
And no matter what someone said at church, there's always a little bit of truth.
00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:16.319
And I felt as leaders, we needed to be like Nordstrom, like listen, say thank you for your words, and then move on.
00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:17.920
Once in a while, you want to say, What?
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:19.040
You're a nut job.
00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:21.680
But mostly right, we don't do that.
00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:23.519
No, it's very rare.
00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.920
But I just think finding our people was key.
00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:33.839
And that Scott and I do find humor, like when we travel now, we laugh way more than we don't.
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:34.319
Yeah.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:37.279
And sometimes you're like, What was that?
00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:43.360
And uh, so I do think there's always something God's showing us, and I've always looked for that too.
00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:47.519
And then I will say, unfortunately, we have had one sabbatical.
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:48.879
We didn't, it was two weeks.
00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.879
We were on week two, I think, when Scott got elected to his current position.
00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:01.199
And so we were having our first ever sabbatical, and because he's always been in the university and the church, it just never that seven-year mark never lined up for both.
00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:01.680
Yeah.
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:02.879
So we couldn't do that.
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.680
So I do think that is a key, though, to not have burnout.
00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:13.439
And even if it's a small time, we are taking a huge trip together for our anniversary.
00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.720
What was really for our 60th birthday, is why we said, let's set this aside.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:18.800
But we couldn't do it during that time.
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.399
And this big trip, and that's something that I'm really looking forward to.
00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:28.160
And one part of it is a cruise, and it's kind of a sabbatical in the sense of we shut everything off.
00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:35.039
Because I think it's important to be reminded, we get to decide do you want to participate in God's story or not?
00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:36.879
It's gonna happen with or without you.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.399
If you think someone's salvation is up to you, let it go.
00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:41.039
It's not.
00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:44.480
Yeah, the Church of the Nazarene is gonna go on with or without you.
00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:49.440
I'm sorry to say, the whole kingdom of God is gonna go on with or without us.
00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:49.840
Yeah.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.759
And we get to choose to be a part.
00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:53.120
Like, that's so crazy.
00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:55.200
Why would you let us be apart?
00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.639
And I love getting to be a part of that creativity of his.
00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:01.759
I don't know why he included humans, but he did.
00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:04.080
And I find it absolutely joyful.
00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:09.279
And for me, the best part of ministry is absolutely watching someone's life transformed.
00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:11.600
It's just, there's nothing like it.
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:18.240
And I, to this day, it I love it so much that I just want to keep doing it, like you said, forever.
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:23.679
I can't wait till the day where Scott's retired where we get to decide where we want to show up and when we want to show up.
00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:31.919
But I don't er I plan on doing ministry till my last breath because I absolutely love getting to be a part of watching God do what He can only do.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:32.399
Yeah.
00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:37.440
And you know, I was just thinking many, many years ago, a thing that I had to overcome.
00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:42.960
And I think it was just trying to learn my who I was in ministry and what we were doing and all that kind of stuff.
00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:57.360
But I started doing this comparison thing in my head, sometimes at district assemblies, or sometimes when we were just together with other pastors and listening to their lives and their stories and going, oh my word, I I that that's they're doing great.
00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:00.240
I don't we're never going to be that or whatever.
00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:09.519
And that that little comparison thing that I know is not from the Lord was in my head at a very young age, so to speak, in ministry.
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:11.200
And so you kind of just look over.
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:14.159
It's kind of like going to the mall when we had malls.
00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:18.639
And you went in and you're kind of like, oh, you can just kind of feel better if you compare yourself.
00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.919
You walk down and look at everybody, you know, people watch or something.
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:22.480
Yeah.
00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:27.679
But when you ministry watch, you're going to, it's not going to go well.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:29.840
It's not a good place to be.
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.840
Uh joy does not spring from that, is what I'm trying to say.
00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:39.360
And so I just literally had to let that go and say, you know, God, we are who we are.
00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.440
You placed us where you placed us.
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.960
We started in a church that for the first Sunday had 20 people to come out and see their new pastor.
00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:56.480
And the Lord taught us and grew us, and it was just what we needed to be, where we needed to be at the time for who we are and what we were learning.
00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:02.000
And so the that little, I just say that in case anybody's listening and maybe they might be fighting that.
00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:02.879
I get it.
00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:08.399
I that and every once in a while that slips back in, you know, and we can't let that.
00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:19.759
That's why being in the scripture and being in prayer is so important because God is the one who tells us who we are and gives us our joy and shows us what's great in life.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:26.720
When he created laughter, so I think he made me just the laugh kind of thing, is especially the most inappropriate times.
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:33.840
I think that is so good because that might be the number one thing in ministry that stills your joy is comparison.
00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:41.120
When you compare yourself not only to other churches down the street or one ministry in church is going better than the other, depending where you are.
00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:46.480
And I it made me my mind went back to Satan in the sense of that's his very first trick, right?
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:47.759
With at with Adam and Eve.
00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:49.279
She focused on one apple.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:56.720
You focus on the one thing instead of the 90% of the beautiful garden you could have and all the things God is doing, you're focusing on that one.
00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.720
And if he can just keep you there, then you don't enjoy the rest of the garden.
00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:01.120
Yeah.
00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.919
And there's so many beautiful parts of ministry.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:14.399
And I guarantee, in all of our lives, there's so many beautiful seasons that you just and sometimes you do have dark night of the soul, which I don't know if you've ever heard, but that's a real thing where it is dark and awful.
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.159
And I couldn't, it was horrible.
00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.799
And I didn't even know I was in it until I was in it.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:23.200
And knowing, reading though, and people sharing their stories about that.
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.480
I know that's a swift left turn there, but yeah, that's all right.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.320
There are really dark, horrible seasons that you do need help to get through.
00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:34.720
And if one of our listeners is there, I don't want you to think Jill and I are saying, Oh, it's all joy.
00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.759
Uh we have to both be in good seasons right now.
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:42.000
But we want to encourage you that you need to get through this and you will.
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:43.519
God is so faithful.
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:49.200
You just keep doing what you know is right to do, even when you're not sure why you're doing it.
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.840
And you just keep doing the next right thing and the next right thing and the next right thing.
00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:55.679
And it's baby steps in ministry.
00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:00.960
Every time I've wanted the big picture, God has reminded me that's not how he likes to lead his leaders.
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.159
He likes to lead his people day by day, step by step.
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:08.240
And sometimes for me, it's truly minute by minute, especially when we're overseas.
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:15.360
Like I say, Lord, put on blinders, help me be totally focused on these people today and not the other things.
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.840
And then there's such joy in it because this is what he has for me today, right now.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.799
And I would say to people listening too, if you really want joy in ministry, focus on what is today?
00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:28.639
What is God doing in your life today, and how can you share that?
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:31.919
And isn't it interesting when you're talked about the dark night of the soul?
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:42.159
I every time there's an issue that I'm battling or just in my head, you know, all that kind of stuff, when I go to bed, it's front and forward in my head.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:44.320
And it's hard to let that go, isn't it?
00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:48.559
And isn't it interesting that just we have to battle that?
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.120
That can't be what we go to sleep with.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:54.799
And that is why we started memorizing different scripture.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:07.120
And honestly, both Sam and I, when there's something like that and we our head hits the pillow, we have to start quoting scripture and eventually we'll fall asleep and that is gone.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:13.200
But it's just as always when our head hits, you know, that pillow and we're gonna go, oh, I'm so sleepy.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:14.000
It doesn't matter.
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:19.600
That issue comes right to your head or to your mind, and and it's just that's a time.
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:24.080
And I say that because if that happens to you, if you're listening, you're not the only one.
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.879
And it's just we have to battle even right there.
00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:27.360
Yeah.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:28.480
And I love the scripture.
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:37.679
And I actually had a really wise Christian counselor give me a piece of advice because I had something that we that I just couldn't get out of my head, and I'm still praying about it all the time.
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:42.799
And she said, I just want you to open your hands, Debbie, and give it to God and say, Lord, I can't carry this anymore.
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.200
Could you carry it tonight so my soul can sleep?
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:55.120
And so literally, I physically at night give it to God and I can rest because he's gonna be awake anyways, and say, Lord, can you take this and I'm just giving it to you and I'm gonna sleep?
00:14:55.360 --> 00:15:06.879
And that really has helped me settle my mind down too, because there are seasons and times and things that just weigh so heavy, especially on ministry leaders, but on your personal life, that's mine right now.
00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:10.320
Something I've just my husband and I with our family are just praying through.
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:21.600
And it's wow, I just have to keep giving it to God again and again and again and not let the enemy keep me focused on it, where I can't enjoy the 99% of beautifulness in my life.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.440
Yeah, that is so good.
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:27.679
What books have you read to maybe help you have joy?
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:28.559
Or is there any?
00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:29.039
I don't know.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:31.440
That wasn't even on our list to even talk about, but it just came to the show.
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:33.360
She just do a total curveball.
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.879
Well, actually, I do have one, and so you can't trick me today.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.960
Yeah, I'm gonna break that.
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.320
I am not a poem reader.
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:46.480
It'll surprise you with my personality that I don't sit down the end of poem, poetry reading all the time.
00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:51.120
But a friend has introduced me to it's called the generosity, a book of poems.
00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:57.679
And you just read it slowly and then read it again slowly and see what comes up in it.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.759
And I have found the spirit because I'm really bad at rest.
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:05.039
I'm really great at doing, not so good at resting.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:12.879
And in this position, I really have to be able to turn off my mind and rest with the Lord when I get home, especially.
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:19.200
And I travel with this book even, and it's been just a real beautiful piece for me.
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:27.600
And then another, if this is silly, but it for years, probably the last 25-30 years, I have only read books you underline.
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.200
I'm just, how can I get better?
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:30.480
How can this help me in ministry?
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:31.759
How can this help my spiritual life?
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:34.799
How can, and so, you know, I have a lot of people I love.
00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.519
I'm a fan of Mark Patterson, I'm a fan of Bob Goff, I'm a fan of anything.
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.240
Um, oh, his name just left my head.
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:43.440
Dallas Willard.
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.519
Those things I've read a ton of.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.960
But right now, I'm actually reading Christian novels.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.600
Yeah.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.120
And her last name is Gunn, and I can't even remember her first name.
00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:58.720
But I love reading those now to turn my mind off because you can't underline anything.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:04.319
Like I'm not trying to learn, and it's just helping me settle in my space, if you will.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:10.880
And it's still a beautiful story, but I do say I I'm loving reading these novels by her.
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:12.000
What about you?
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:13.599
That's a great question.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:14.720
There's a handful.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.039
First of all, I'm a Psalms reader girl.
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:18.240
I love the Psalms.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.480
I read one every morning because it's a part of the lectionary, of course.
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:27.519
And then I start praying the Psalms, but on a book level, other than the Bible, I love Dr.
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:28.480
Henry Cloud.
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:35.279
Now, I know it's more structural and practical kind of thing instead of what you're reading right there during these days.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:18:00.960
But the boundaries book, all of the boundaries books, I know I've mentioned that before, but those are those, let me just say, they give me boundaries, obviously, but they give me permission to only go so far and or to create or to not say no or to whatever I, as a woman and as a ministry spouse, I'm allowed to have boundaries.
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.839
I just don't have to be this open book to everybody.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:15.119
And that particular book, and I read a couple of them, he's got a few out there, but that gave me permission to go, oh, I can be joyful right here.
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:23.920
And I can set up my fence lines, you know, with maybe some people, or maybe with activities, or maybe with whatever it is.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:28.319
But that one was probably and still is a game changer.
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.720
I like to read Lisa Turkish too.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:35.680
She's got some books out there that I have underlined and post-it noted pretty much the entire thing.
00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:40.880
Uh, you know, um, that that just filled my soul with, oh, okay.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:45.279
I'm not the only one, so to speak, that has felt this or dealt with that.
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.880
And she's a beautiful way of coming back to the scripture that grounds you.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.000
And anyway, so that those are some just a couple.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:54.960
So some tools that they could add to the belt if you're interested.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:55.359
Yeah.
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.319
And I do think just as we close out this very first episode, again, welcome to season two.
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.160
But who you surround yourself with really matters, right?
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.039
I think you will become like the people you're with.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.440
So if you're with a group of people who are constantly saying, Can you believe the church did that?
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:12.640
Can you believe this?
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:16.640
You're gonna sit and wallow in that, and your whole life is gonna be so negative.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:23.599
You want to be people who like no offense, I'm gonna sound like we're being arrogant here, but in a sense, me and Jill, right?
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.839
We thought, man, no one talks about spouses, and this is so lonely.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:29.839
And we could have just whined about it, man.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:32.160
Can you believe the church does nothing for spouses?
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.519
And then I said, Jill, kettle, we're the church.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:36.880
We need nothing.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:37.279
Yeah.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:39.440
So we thought, okay, how do we do this?
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.640
And then figured it out.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.960
And literally, I'm still so proud of us in the sense of we had no we've heard a podcast.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.160
No, do you know the first time someone said we need I need a thumbnail?
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:51.440
I'm like, I have two thumbs.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:52.240
What's a thumbnail?
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:52.960
No, right?
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:53.359
Yeah.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.720
And I text you and we just start laughing and you just figure it out.
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.839
But I don't want to be the person that just whines about it.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:02.960
I want to be a part of the solution in every part of my life.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.759
I want to be moving forward with God.
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:11.440
And it is such a again, I go back to I can't believe he uses humans to do this.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.160
That he doesn't have to, but he chose to.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:30.720
And I can't believe he's using just two ladies like us that we've had different experiences in the church, and we just think, okay, no, we can talk about them because we realize we needed encouraged when we were there, and there wasn't those voices out there, or we couldn't find them or didn't know about them.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:40.559
So if we are the bridge for the next generation of people coming behind us to say, no, remember those loudmouth women that said that, whatever, that's that might be true.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:41.599
We can live this way.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.680
You know, we don't have to be so negative about ministry.
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:47.759
There is so much joy in it.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.119
And if you don't feel that, you might be listening and you don't feel that, pray about it.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.119
Ask the Lord to fill you with his spirit and his joy.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:04.079
And little by little, just like you said, it might not be overnight and it might be, but just ask him to fill and he will.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.960
You just wait, hold on because it's coming.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:07.519
Yeah.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:11.920
And even this podcast, we hope that we are a tool in your tool belt.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.559
But if we're not your jam, don't listen again.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.920
Don't it's not a problem.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:17.519
We're definitely not for everybody.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:21.279
I'm not sure for anybody, and I'm not sure who's listening besides my aunt, I aunt Loretta.
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:30.319
But I do think I we are just trying to help people that we wished we could have had the help when we were in our 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s, and now we're 60.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:35.039
I was gonna say two midlife women, but my son Jonah always reminds me, Mom, you're way past midlife.
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:36.559
There's no way to be 120.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:37.440
Thanks for that.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.920
Yeah, he's completely right.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.000
I have no intention of being 120.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.920
So yeah, but ministry should be fun most of the time.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:50.240
Now, again, there are seasons that aren't, and you've got to have your people.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.480
I'm still I'm sorry, I can't get away from that.
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.359
No, that's good.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.599
But you've got to find those people that help you get to the next season.
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:03.200
And I think that Scott and I have always had those people that have helped us when we needed them.
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:04.480
And yeah.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:22.640
And as we wrap this up for our first episode on season two, at the end of season two, somewhere along the line, we're going to answer some questions or thoughts that you all might have, or you, or maybe a topic you want us to chat on and see what we say about.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:28.480
Go ahead and email at us, email us at beside every calling at gmail.com.
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:32.240
And we would love to just gather those topics and kind of hit some.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.160
And one of the last episodes of the of season two, we'd love to see what you're thinking or what you have questions about.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:38.960
Absolutely.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.519
And I do want to say thank you to those that have reached out.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:48.079
We've had people from several countries, and it is so fun to know that we are helping, even if it's a tiny bit.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:48.559
Yeah.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:58.960
And we will keep doing this if we are moving the needle forward to help other spouses feel seen and get healthy and know that you have people out there that do understand the role that you're in.
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.920
But like Jill said, please do email us at besideverycalling at gmail.com.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:11.119
And also, if you want, at the end of all of the show notes, if you're listening to the podcast or watching on YouTube, we have something called Table Talk.
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:17.200
And every episode has questions where you can just a conversation starter for you and a friend.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:20.720
So go meet someone at a coffee shop and talk about it, watch the episode.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:26.799
Or if you happen to be another leader and want to do a Zoom call, say, hey, watch this episode and then let's talk about it.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:27.839
That's another way.
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:37.039
We're just trying to give you more tools out there to build healthy ministries and love the life beside the call because we don't need to be absorbed into it.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:41.680
We really should love walking beside our spouses, whatever that looks like.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:43.759
Any closing thought, Joe?
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.799
No, I again, I, you know, you say always find your people, and I love that so much.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.079
But I guess I keep going back to you're doing better than you think you are.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:52.559
Absolutely.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.319
And um, just hang in there.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.480
Hope you're joy-filled, and uh, and if you're not, you can be.
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.480
And uh, we're we're here for you.
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:08.960
Thank you, friends, for listening to episode the first episode, it's really episode 13, but of season two in Beside Every Calling.
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:10.400
We are really glad you're here.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.359
And like Jill said, please help us spread the word.
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:18.799
Share this with another ministry spouse or email us at beside everycalling at gmail.com.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:25.359
If this conversation felt a little too familiar, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.640
That's your sign.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.640
Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:37.680
And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
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It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
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We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.
