Biological Traitors? Why Women Like Getting Conquered

A detailed examination of historical records showing patterns of relationships between local women and occupying forces during major conflicts. The discussion covers data from World War I occupations in France and Belgium, World War II cases including France and Japan, and comparisons between hostile and allied occupations. It explores evolutionary psychology factors, cooperation studies, genetic ancestry evidence, and implications for group dynamics.

The conversation also addresses male behavior in similar contexts, biblical references, and long-term strategies for post-conquest stability. It draws on primary sources, historian estimates, and experimental research to provide context on these recurring historical patterns.

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins:Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. In the, manosphere, one of the common topics is how women like to sleep with the enemies... The invading enemies during war. And I had heard this historically, and my take on it was... I mean, I guess, maybe, but I decided to do a bit more of a breakdown of this, get the actual numbers. How much of a population comes from this? Why do women do this? Why do we let a population that has a propensity for facilitating the enemy vote in our elections? What would these women likely do if asked to vote on policies like in Well, it’s just... Oh, boy.

Simone Collins:Oh, why are we...

Malcolm Collins:Oh. When I went into this data, the thing that really surprised me, because what you could argue is this is just a function of having a large army within a territory for a period. Right? But if we break down different instances, like the American occupation of France versus similar time window, the Nazi occupation of France, because America occupied France as we were pushing back the Nazis, the French women barely married or had kids with the Americans, whereas they did it in huge numbers with the Nazis. If we look in the case of Americans because the Americans were stationed in New Zealand, they were stationed in Australia, they were stationed in many places, if you’re talking about the Pacific Theater, barely had any marriages out of that. A huge number, orders of magnitude more when Americans were occupying Japan, like an actual hostile conquest even though they treated them fairly nice during that period. so what we’re seeing here is women seem to have a propensity to get with a specific type of male. But let’s go into it. You’re gonna say something, Simone?

Simone Collins:This is bizarre to me because, of course, I only exist because a French boar bride married an American Okie and had my mom. Right?

Malcolm Collins:I think that’s okay. I think it’s fine to marry into a force liberating your country. I think it is quite a different thing

Simone Collins:to worry Didn’t the Nazis frame it as, like, I’m coming to liberate France from your Frenchness or something?

Malcolm Collins:They almost did. They almost did. Say, lovey, look at France today allowing itself to be looted and massacred.

Simone Collins:It’s not looking very good for them. You know, you gotta you gotta say it’s

Malcolm Collins:You think about all these... Like, all the, Irish terrorist organizations to earn their independence only to sell out their country, like, a generation later.

Simone Collins:Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:For real. It is it is wild to me, these historic conflicts reframed. But let’s get into it. I’m gonna start with one of the lesser known examples so we can go into it Yeah. Which is a World War one interwar period between 1914 and nineteen thirties, the occupied Northern France and Belgium region, that led to the term femmes et broches. German occupation of Belgium, and 10 French departments precluded extensive contact between women and German soldiers. Diaries from the period mentioned these relationships frequently to the point where they are actually mentioned in two thirds of all diaries surveyed.

Simone Collins:Are you serious?

Malcolm Collins:That’s No. Mentioned, that doesn’t mean that they weren’t mentioned approvingly.

Simone Collins:Oh, like, maybe their friend Yeah. He was But it was

Malcolm Collins:a common part of life.

Simone Collins:That is bizarre. I just figure you... One, if you were involved with a foreign invader male that maybe your entire community would think that you’re a spy and ostracize you? And then two, wouldn’t you get in trouble for doing that with the foreign invading?

Malcolm Collins:Of these women were ostracized later, but let’s go into numbers here. Okay?

Simone Collins:Okay.

Malcolm Collins:So, there were roughly 6,000 in Belgium and 10 to 20,000 in the occupied French departments, often registered as father unknown or illegitimate birth. This is for how many children were born as a result of this. To understand how much of, impact this had, Douai, one of the districts, saw birth rates go from... In prewar, they were around ten percent, okay, to during the war, note, the local men are gone during the war, okay, to twenty to thirty eight percent.

Simone Collins:That... That’s like a... That’s almost a third.

Malcolm Collins:You mean that’s more than tripling, almost quadrupling if the 38%

Simone Collins:is for a number of birth is right and at

Malcolm Collins:least doubling the birth rate is. Well, all the local men are away. That’s So, again, not a simple phenomenon. no. No. Sure. This was a heavily occupied district where you didn’t see this as much in the rural areas where you didn’t have any... As many standing troops and stuff like this. So it didn’t have as big of a neg... Genetic impact. So historian Emmanuel Dettour estimates that there were 15 to 20,000 rapes during this period. That said, there were over 50,000 instances of sexual contact. So that means that the rape... You say this is downstream of rapes. It’s not downstream as a rape. Detroit’s core primary source with a corpus of 110 private diaries kept by civilians, about the intimate relationships with German soldiers, which, again, were in two thirds of them. the dominant mentions are, sort of moral panic, and they were thought of as traitors from a brochures or affiliates brochures or worse. a common, motif appears in the diaries where local girls or women are visibly upset when particular German units left. one formulation that surfaces is the observation of girls were seen crying when the soldiers departed.

Simone Collins:Oh my gosh. Wait. Wasn’t this a theme in the sound of music? Wasn’t, one of the older girls super all about, what was his name, Hans or Frans or something?

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. And what the women would often do is they’d flee to some town where they weren’t known afterwards, so the kid wouldn’t be known as the descendant of a Nazi. But in studies after this period, they represented the children as German fathers, 1.5% of the population.

Simone Collins:Oh my gosh. It was the uniforms. Okay.

Malcolm Collins:There’s see this in other instances as well. I’m just I’m just pointing out, this is more of a thing than people often lead on. Now let’s, contrast this, okay, with The United States numbers. Alright? So US soldiers in France and Britain and Rhineland formed relationship with thousands of marriages. While exact totals are uncertain, these range from only 5,000 to 18,000, with one number or in figure is 6,000 bona fide marriages. so very, very low when contrasted with the French. And what’s interesting is that the Americans wanted to get married and form families. Whereas with the Nazis, we only know of about 13, like, a handful, like, in the teens of Nazi soldiers who actually married a local person.

Simone Collins:Could this be a timing thing? I mean, because my grandmother, for example, met my grandfather after the war was over when the Americans were still in Paris. Like, presumably, you’re into family formation when the wartime is over and not so much in the middle of the

Malcolm Collins:It’s part a policy thing in American attitude thing.

Simone Collins:Also, you’re saying, like, the Nazi party was like, you cannot form families with Well, they Oh, right. Because they were all about, you know, German supremacy.

Malcolm Collins:War one. War one, we’re talking about here in sorry.

Simone Collins:I thought you’re talking about World War two. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins:Sorry. So World War one, it was still the Germans were like, no.

Simone Collins:We’re... You’re

Malcolm Collins:you’re not taking back the random locals seriously because... And their kids. Whereas American has always reacted very differently to immigration historically and had a different relationship with it. And I think very few Americans would seriously protest bringing back war brides from the European allied nations.

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah. It was seen as as fancy.

Malcolm Collins:Yes. contemporary newspaper accounts, e g the New York Times reporting on embarkment, noted the brides whose nationality recorded the majority were French followed by British with fewer Germans. Military authorities established bridal camps and transportation arrangements. The Red Cross and YMCA assisted. Some black American soldiers also married French women with an estimated 2,000 such, unions. Military and civil commentary often expressed paternalistic or anxious views. Official worried about foreign sirens and venereal disease and the suitability of such women. In the nineteen twenties, some of these marriages faced social or practical consequences. One 1925 assessment suggested a significant portion estimates around thirty percent or higher over time ended in separation or divorce. Now keep in mind, a moral panic over a divorce rate of only thirty percent. Oh, no. You have a thirty percent chance of getting divorced. I think even, like, the lower numbers today put in

Simone Collins:That must have that must have been a record high. Right? Like Yeah. Before it was unheard of. So I I could see that being pretty alarming.

Malcolm Collins:Now let’s go to the peak of documented cases, World War two. This is what people often talk about during this, and I wanted to see, is this real? Alright? How how much of it... It was called collaboration horizontal, which you can probably guess what that means. So relationships

Simone Collins:between In in the French courts... Sorry. In the French courts, royal courts, in the time of, Louis the fourteenth, they called it, which I really liked.

Malcolm Collins:relationships between French women and German soldiers were widespread after liberation. Approximately 20,000 women accused of sexual collaborations had their heads shaved publicly, and were marched through the streets, and provided only domestic and clerical services. Bibsaid Mini provided only domestic and... Anyway, estimates of children born from these unions... No. No. Only 20,000 were marched to the streets are over 200,000 children born in such unions.

Simone Collins:That is a huge number. That is... That’s that’s cities. That’s... Well, I don’t know how many cities

Malcolm Collins:are there. High profile cases are better documented. The actress Arletti had a well known affair with Luftwaffe officer Hans Horgan Schroer. After liberation, she was briefly imprisoned and later quoted as saying roughly, my heart is French, but my ass is international.

Simone Collins:Another That’s that’s, like, that’s just really good. It’s a great sigh.

Malcolm Collins:High end French woman who had a relationship is Coco Chanel, and other favors in the fashion industry had Nazi partners. Some high society women treated the presidents of well mannered officers as almost fashionable. It was considered a high society thing to do.

Simone Collins:Well, yeah, they had their... Look. During during... At least in World War two, during the occupation, I remember my grandmother talking about all the fancy things that they had. Right? Like, they had the resources. You’re the one who’s wondering what sugar used to taste like. Right? You know, it’s

Malcolm Collins:So so what you’re saying is you would have married a Nazi during the war. You would have been like, oh, bad boy. Impress me harder. I mean, look at the popularity of the ice books for the Okay.

Simone Collins:And and and, again, back to the set of music. This is my only frame of reference. I’m an uneducated woman after all. Here’s... In in the actual Broadway musical, again, I don’t know the title of the song, but the the character that I played in our school play, Elsa von Schroeder, sings this song like, be wise, compromise, compromise and be wise. And it’s all just like, hey. Look. I don’t wanna get killed, and these guys have a lot of resources. Maybe we should just be chill with the Nazis. And that’s the whole thing.

Malcolm Collins:That’s This is the fear of allowing women to vote on

Simone Collins:education. Fear of allowing Sorry.

Malcolm Collins:Not education. Immigration. Well, education.

Simone Collins:I guess. Yeah. It’s so close.

Malcolm Collins:So it goes. Yeah. But, really, if there are psychological differences between men and women, and we’ll get into the biological and evolutionary reasons we would likely see these and the evidence we see for these even in experimental data. The the... This does mean that we need to think about the... While I do think that, you know, biblically, as I pointed out, men are supposed to take instruction from their wives, you can see our episode on that, that does not mean that giving women moral authority over society is going to have positive externalities on average when you see rates like this even within high society, even within what’s approved.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah. I guess you could you could you could kind of reason away a very vulnerable woman who just wants to get food or resources for her family, say, from a corrupt official who Yeah. Will look the other way and give them more rations or something. But this is... Yeah. If it’s if it’s high society like Elsa von Schruder, what what else is going on here? Although, of course, they would probably be looking at it in in, I guess, similarly opportunistic, but a different scales way. Right? Where Oh, my goodness. Yeah. You have ears because you’re a pink bear. like, you know, they’re they’re looking to to make money. And if if the economy in which you are playing is fundamentally shifting around a foreign invading power, you probably wanna get in on it if your objective function is maximize profit, which so many people’s is. Right?

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Well, no. I mean, guys didn’t do this. They were out risking their lives to protect these women.

Simone Collins:Well, sure. Because they weren’t allowed they weren’t allowed to make these choices at the time because they were too busy being killed, you see. But I I am confident that if they were at home not being killed, they would also be interested in these opportunistic opportunities.

Malcolm Collins:Well, that doesn’t explain why the rates of sex were higher

Simone Collins:in The United States. They couldn’t pour themselves out. No. No. I said why

Malcolm Collins:the female rates higher in violent occupations of an invading foreigner rather than relieving occupations of an ally, which we’ll get to the numbers in a second.

Simone Collins:Okay. I can’t explain that. I can’t explain that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:Alright. So Arletti, so this is a a famous... Because I wanted to dig into, like, oh, how did this actually work in high society in France? Lorraine Barsata, known as Arletti, was one of France’s most popular and highest paid actresses at the time. She starred in Marseille Carmera films, including Hotel de Nord, famous for the line atmosphere atmosphere, less visitors des sur, and Wartime Productions of Les Enfants du Paradis in March 1941.

Simone Collins:Speak French to me. And just... If ever I’m, like, on my bed, will you, like... Will he read French poetry to me or something? Like, I will die laughing and die.

Malcolm Collins:My heart and mind cannot be penetrated by the foreigner, by these foreign thoughts or ideas of the Good. The man who allows their mind to be penetrated by a foreign language lies violated in the streets.

Simone Collins:You’re you’re you’re so the opposite where you you can’t even pronounce the words of a foreign power, let alone consider getting getting

Malcolm Collins:naked with them, I suppose. Yes. Yes. Well So Arletti, she she later, had a relationship with a Luftwaffe officer and military judge, and later described the meeting as transformative. She encountered a singularly handsome young man of perfect indifference who was to upend my life. She nicknamed him Fawrence for his pointed ears, and he called her

Simone Collins:a fantasy romance novel or a French woman’s experience with wartime occupiers? Because this sounds an awful lot like an enemies to lover romance novel. Sorry. Pointed ears? Sorry. Aloof? What? What was his name?

Malcolm Collins:Called her bichet. What does bichet mean in French? Bichet. Pretty? Right?

Simone Collins:Kisses? It means deer. Deer.

Speaker 4:I’d also point out here that later we’re going to talk about how men are not inculpable in this, that a male sleeping with A conquered female can be as damaging to the group as a female sleeping with a conquering male in terms of leaks in intelligence and could even be worse because he’s sleeping with someone who is genetically inferior given that they were able to conquer their group. But in this case, he called her a deer or a prey species, which I, as a male, would find hot. You know, he’s he’s saying you’re weak. You’re You are the prey. And I think in the same way that women find the idea of the monster men hot, many men find the idea of the conquered woman hot, which is, I think, just as morally compromised.

Speaker 13:Side note, if you’re annoyed by Simone’s audio in this, I’m sorry about that. we... The alternative was to rerecord the entire episode to which we would come off as disingenuous because we were reenacting a conversation we already had or not release the video at all, which seemed like a bad idea. it won’t happen again. We’ve built safeguards to this. Essentially, the system switched from her professional microphone to a nonprofessional microphone. And so not just was the audio bad in the middle part, it gets better at the end, but when she was trying to mute it because the baby was in the room who’s very sick, and so we wanted the young kid with her, you could hear the young child Very, very sorry about this, but the alternative was just not release the episode at all.

Malcolm Collins:Anyway For elf boy,

Simone Collins:look. They’re showing something into

Malcolm Collins:the apartment on on a quiet confetti looking this sign. Their relationship was intense and largely private in its emotional core. She insisted and later questioning that it was purely sentimental and that they never discussed military or political events, but it was publicly known in social and artistic circles. They exchanged passionate letters. Some collected, published postwar by something. When Shuring was sent to the Italian front, including the... To Caso area, they continued writing sometimes via intermediaries. Ordinary women were more often in contemporary diaries and later interviews. Historian Robert Gildet interviewed Marine Ramateau, who as a young woman had German officers billeted in her home. She recalled them as polite and cultured, discussing Gosser and French literature playing the violin rather than the cartoon villains of wartime propaganda. Letters exchanged between French women and German soldiers studied by historians such as Charles Farmington often dwell on ordinary daily life at food and small gifts rather than the grand ideology or pure exploitation.

Simone Collins:when documents... Look. Have you been in... Like, you’ve heard about how, like, you know, certain foods go really at high prices in j

Malcolm Collins:Oh, yeah. No. There were women who would sleep with German for, like, nylon stockings. Like, again Like, I don’t I don’t know why.

Simone Collins:That’s like, you can’t downplay it just because it’s for food. I mean, when something’s scarce, it’s valuable.

Malcolm Collins:one documented case involved a woman who followed her German fiance to Germany intending to marry him after the war, later learning of his death, returned that he died for Germany. some women hid deserting German partners, as the allies advanced. So, again It doesn’t sound very romantic. Against us.

Simone Collins:It sounds fair. The the the thing is when you look at women’s romance novels, enemies to lovers, and also, like, the evil, like, bad bad guy, like, it’s it’s very hot to women. And so all of this sounds like just catnip, really. Yes. Really. I’m only being honest and speaking facts, very uncomfortable ones, but enemies to lovers wouldn’t be like... It’s such a it’s such a meaningful thing that often when you read book reviews of romance novels, they’ll just rattle off the tropes, like age gap, enemies to lovers, blah blah blah, like dominance, submission. And this is... It’s just one of the most popular ones. Enemies to lovers is maybe the most popular.

Malcolm Collins:Well, maybe women are built for this. Let’s continue. So allied soldiers, where do we see this? 70,000 British women. In Australia and New Zealand, it was 12,000 to 15,500 women. In New Zealand, it was a 500. In Continental Europe, this is where you get the large numbers. We run into around a 150,000 to 200,000. And then in Asia, we have 66,000 from Japan, 28,000 from Korea, and 52,000 from The Philippines. now you can compare, you know, similar periods here where if you’re looking at, like, Australia and New Zealand, you’re looking at, like, 12,000 to 15,000 peaceful occupation. Japan, you’re looking at, like, 66,000, which again was much higher than even Korea, which is a more peaceful occupation, 28,000. The only number that really comes close to Japan is is The Philippines with 52,000. Obviously, you get the Continental Europe, but that includes Italy. That includes Germany. So that includes a lot of, you know, the the people we were actually at war with. In Germany, we’re looking at 14 to 20,000. So in occupied Japan... And note here, we’re seeing different numbers here. Anyway, lots of lots of war brides in occupied Japan. In Tolbert’s Washington Post series on the related Japanese war brides oral history archive, she met Hokusuki Tolbert, met a GI on a Tokyo streetcar while working at PX. He persisted after initial refusials. Japanese men, she noted, rarely did. She was not head over heels, but saw the relationship and then escaped from a post... A bleak postwar situation. Certainly not as bleak as the soldiers who were fighting on the front line to keep you safe. He brought scarce gifts such as chocolate, clothing, and spam. Great that you went for a box of spam.

Simone Collins:He did it for the spam.

Malcolm Collins:She noted that the American soldiers were taller and better fed than the Japanese soldiers. Women never denying the allegation of going after the talkings.

Simone Collins:Oh, boy.

Malcolm Collins:No. Where you get really high numbers in comparison to all this is where you have things like mass sexual violence, like, happened in Germany after the Soviet advance, which was a, less peaceful advance. and here, you’re getting, number of children at around, 400,000, at least of which 300,000 were attributed to Soviets.

Simone Collins:Oh gosh.

Malcolm Collins:and in Austria, if you’re talking about American GIs, around 30,000 black babies, which apparently people find they need to separate out. in so let’s go through the the different numbers here. Okay? So if we’re looking at hostile versus nonhostile occupation. Okay? So hostile occupations, you have America of Japan where you had, you know, 50,000, 60,000 marriages as a result. You have the German occupation of Belgium, 10 to 20,000. You have German occupied France, 40 to a 100,000. And the Soviets in East Germany, 300,000. Then we have the the peaceful ones where it’s a lot easier to measure marriages. They don’t have as many kids. Or we we can get children here. So with Americans in Britain, it was only 9,000 to 23,000. Compare that to these other numbers that’s comparatively smaller occupations. Americans are not children yet. In marriages, we have twelve fifteen thousand five hundred, again, lower than a lot of those others. And Americans in occupied Germany, you had 14 to 20,000, which is wildly different than the 300,000 children born of the Soviets. So there’s been some research done on this, which is really fascinating. They looked at playing games and how affection works between males and females.

Simone Collins:And Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I’m sorry. I’m gonna try to guess here. If a woman loses a game, she finds her male counterpart hotter?

Malcolm Collins:So it’s it’s not about hotness. It’s about, like, trust versus hostility, like like, team camaraderie is what they were looking at.

Simone Collins:If I could beat you at a game, I’m not gonna trust you as much.

Malcolm Collins:So if you’re playing a team sport and your team is losing, men feel more trust for their own side, whereas women feel less trust for their own side. And I believe, I have to look at this up and post, more trust for the other side when their side is losing.

Speaker 5:So it’s been ages since I went over this, and I wanted to get you guys the accurate info. So this is, Van Vogue de Kramer d Johnson, 2007, gender differences in cooperation and competition, the male warrior hypothesis. And, what it showed was that men showed significantly more, contribution when their group was competing against other groups than when there was no intergroup competition. they also showed stronger identification with in group under threat. Specifically, they would give even more when their group was losing, whereas women’s cooperation levels was completely unaffected by whether or not there was in group competition or whether their group had won or lost the last round.

Malcolm Collins:and keep in mind, there’s also the famous study of punishment. When there is a bad actor in an experiment where somebody cheated at an online game and received a shock, men felt good when they saw the cheater receive a shock, whereas women felt as bad as they did when somebody who is totally innocent received a shock.

Simone Collins:So they just don’t want anyone to be hurt, basically.

Malcolm Collins:Yes. So now the question comes, why are women like this? Indeed.

Speaker 16:Okay. I wanted to add some additional studies here that there was one on sexual selection in war heroism, which showed archival analysis of US World War two soldiers found that surviving Medal of Honors recipients had dramatically more offspring than other veterans, 3.18 to 2.72. Experimental vignette studies with female participants showed higher sexual attractiveness ratings for male soldiers described as war heroes versus those who served with distinguished, heroism who did not go to war. So women like warriors, disproportionately even if they say they don’t. if you were looking at Snyder et al, evolution human behavior, it found that women’s self reported fear of crime predicted stronger preferences for long term mates described as aggressive and dominant or physically formidable. Follow-up work has examined how stable this preference is across context and links it to perceived vulnerability related studies have looked into women’s evaluations of outgroup men in intergroup settings, sometimes finding more negative responses under conditions of elevated contraception risk when women appraise themselves as vulnerable to sexual coercion. The male warrior hypothesis. If we’re looking at genetic studies on this, what we have found is, in basis... Sex based immigration on, Iberia, particularly the 2,000 BC mark. 40% of the overall ancestry was replaced with one in a 100% of the y chromosome lineage being from that region. So they basically just took wives and completely replaced the existing population. We also saw significant, male admixture added in areas where the Mongol Empire dominated a region. And if we look at Vikings in the British Isles, what we see is it’s highest in the Northern Isles with 20 to 25 having a Viking ancestry, but significantly more having y chromosome based Viking ancestry. We also see this pattern in Anatolia, the Levite, and the Sabeans.

Malcolm Collins:Why are women like this? Do you hypothesize, Simone? I mean, I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah. The... Women existed in places that were rated for thousands of years, if not millions of years. This is something that you see among, I think, both monkeys and apes, right, where Males from other troops or groups or clans will raid the other one, and then they will, you know, kill the babies, kill the men, take the the females, and then do do do things. I mean, a woman’s goal

Malcolm Collins:is to find a genetically fit male. Right? Like, that’s what they’re looking for. They’re not

Simone Collins:wins, but that is to say by defeating the other males around her. We have identified a a genetically fit male. Let us reproduce with him.

Malcolm Collins:It’s called in biology honest signaling. In biology, you have two phenomenons. You have one phenomenon, which is dishonest signaling, and one phenomenon that is honest signaling.

Simone Collins:Wait. What’s an example of dishonest signaling?

Malcolm Collins:So suppose a deer, this is is an actual case of of dishonest signaling, which usually leads to the species going extinct or this this trait going extinct, finds out that they can signal to females, which is larger by making, like, a a roaring sound or something like that.

Simone Collins:Right? A roaring deer, Wendy.

Malcolm Collins:Yes. I think this was in Ireland or something. Anyway So they they terrifying. They make a sound that is meant to show, which is a more genetically fit deer Oh my gosh. Other deer. Okay? now suppose one of these deers finds a hatchet in this, and they evolve some sort of larynx that can produce a deeper roar even on sickly males. This is dishonest signaling, and it usually eventually dies out.

Simone Collins:That is really funny, and I’m... After this, we’re going to have to look up roaring deer. So are we... I’m excited.

Malcolm Collins:Find that this is just from memory of biology.

Speaker 6:It’s just from my memory, but also surprisingly accurate. It was on red deer roaring to show fitness, but it was a sign of honest signaling because it matched their fitness relatively well, and they are a species found in Scotland and Ireland.

Malcolm Collins:Note, by the way, very interestingly, in dishonest versus honest signaling, in the video game I’m making that takes place in a techno puritan far future, it is very normal to have children, or adolescents in their school systems undergo life and death based competitions, and a large number of them die . And the answer for this... And people are like, why would you do this? It’s in a world of high levels of genetic modification, you can either have this, dysgenics, or become a eugenesis, what this world would call a eugenesis. And what would they mean by this is if you don’t have people removed from the gene pool in honest tests of genetic fitness, the tests of genetic fitness that ends up determining what genes survive is just how many surviving offspring you have, which can lead to very negative consequences of... As we are seeing right now, as in being a dumb baby factory can get you more kids. Right? So that’s seen as a a, a dishonest test of meaningful fitness. If meaningful fitness is defined by your ability to creatively outcompete your opponents. And it’s a world where when people die, they can be uploaded into virtual environments, so death is treated very differently. But the eugenicists are the people who say, well, yes, dysgenics would be a bad thing if we allowed it to happen. We should engineer what are good genes and what are bad genes Of of the level of the government. Whereas the techno puritans believe, no. You can’t engineer what genes are good or bad at the level of the government. Because if you do that, you’re you’re not allowing honest competition, and you will eventually be outcompeted by groups that do allow honest competition. Competition. What? No. I always try to make my own descendants the bad guys in any games or narrative I make or at least significantly morally dubious because I think it’s it’s really leads to uninteresting stories if your own guys are morally pure from a modern standpoint. Right? Like, they’re... So I I try to make them more interesting in this regard, and this is one of the the the ways I did this in this environment. But... Yeah. The... So, yeah, Simone answer is right. Historically speaking, villages were rated...

Simone Collins:Do have like regular...... Cats?

Malcolm Collins:I do. So it would make genetic sense if your village is being rated in a historic basis. One, your men have proven through their defeat their own genetic unfitness. Yeah. so if you are a fitness seeking vehicle, it is actually good from the perspective so long as you don’t give women too much power in a society. It is actually genetically good for your own people to have this propensity. An example of this is throughout the bible, we see stop marrying the Canaanites Jews. Stop marrying the Canaanites Jews. Stop marrying the Canaanites Jews after you conquer these these people. And, we now know that around 50% of the Jewish genome, like the historic legacy genome, is Canaanite. So you can conquer a people genetically who end up successfully through your women. And and I think this also shows that the bible was giving the Jews good advice. They just didn’t always follow it very well. I mean, we see this in a story that we’ll be talking about in an upcoming track on the binding of Isaac, which is, you know, when he’s when he’s finding Isaac a wife, it’s like, None of these Canaanite women. Come on, man.

Simone Collins:But it’s not just about, like, you might get slightly better genes. It’s... Sometimes it’s about a question of, are you going to die? Does your genetic line die with you, or does it continue?

Malcolm Collins:No. It’s not. Coco Chanel was not going to die. The most famous

Simone Collins:actress But she is the descendant of millions of years of women who may have died had they not. True. True.

Malcolm Collins:Okay. This is why we get the monster f Yes.

Simone Collins:Like, the the... Yes. This is... It... It’s it’s this is inbuilt instincts caused by selective pressures that have been banging on women for a very, very, very long time. So it... Just because maybe right now, it’s not gonna play out that way, There is still a deep instinct that perhaps it would. And, you know, like like, when you’re being waterboarded, you’re probably not gonna die. Yeah. It is it is gonna die.

Malcolm Collins:Genetically stupid to do this, to to do this because as a as a theme... When I say genetically stupid, what I mean is if you care about your genes and the genes of your people propagating, it matters to keep yourself and your new offspring with z conquering groups alive. and I’ll I’ll note here that we have to say not all women. You know? Famously, a woman who would have genetically helped her people but had teachings in her stuff around not marrying and having sex with the invading force, famously a Jewish woman. This is how Mohammed ended up dying. He killed her husband and kids and said, okay. Now you’re gonna be one of my sex slaves because Mohammed had sex slaves. Of course, that was one of his things that Muslims worship someone with sex slaves or or worship through someone with sex slaves. Great. It’s not awesome. You can’t be like, it was of the period. Like, Jesus didn’t have sex slaves. Okay?

Simone Collins:That we know of. No. He he didn’t. It doesn’t seem like this thing. He’s just like, it’s really hard to even imagine some secret sex life life for Jesus.

Malcolm Collins:So you didn’t have to do that. Okay? But he chose to, and, make it cool, make it okay, make it kosher. And so, one of those sex lines decided to poison him. And, famously, there’s the the famous line of it felt like someone was tearing out my aorta. And earlier in the text, he says, if I’m lying about god talking to me, may he tear out my aorta. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Or similar

Simone Collins:to the word. That’s a very

Malcolm Collins:Very distinct. And weird to say. Yes. I know.

Speaker 7:And I would note here that while two different words are used for aorta in both contexts, in each case, the concept of tearing out whatever that word is is totally unique to the Quran and the Hadith in that instance. this is not a common saying and incredibly distinct to these two places in the Quran.

Malcolm Collins:You won’t... They almost say it’s a sign, but we we won’t go too far onto that. Okay. Okay.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Okay. So,

Malcolm Collins:yeah, I’m gonna point out... Like like, my actual takeaway on this is good for women attempting to survive and keep the line of their people stable. Maybe wait till, like, you’ve actually been conquered. But, again, those genetic tendencies are going to be there in that population. And if we look at groups that, you know, work... There’s a reason why, the the groups that had trouble keeping it in their pants, like the Catholic and Castilean factions versus the more Protestant factions that didn’t injurious frequently was the native population. Why? The native population, despite being subject to the same diseases that the Northern European ones were in Latin America, have a much higher surviving population rate. And a lot of that... A third a third of the genome in the region, it comes from these these sorts of pairings. Right? Where where... Not not all of it. Obviously, some of them integrated into society, but a big chunk of it did, where the... And they had, like, an entire class in society, the... I forget what you call it, but it was the children of the Spaniard

Simone Collins:It’s Metzizos.

Malcolm Collins:Metzizos. Yes. You know your history. Simone, such an educated

Simone Collins:woman. Great.

Malcolm Collins:So you immediately jumped on and tried to defend this behavior, which I love. You never did not... Never defeating the allegations.

Simone Collins:I have to represent the counterpoints and also the women, apparently. But, also, I’ve read enough, like... You know?

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. You find it hot. You read enemies to lovers.

Simone Collins:You read enemies to lovers. I love enemies to lovers. Yeah. I I really do. I really do. I I don’t know why. Why do I like it? I I think it’s the male version of hard to get, and that’s a status signaler. Because if it’s hard to get, it must be valuable. Right? I think that’s, like, the most rudimentary version of it that you can get.

Malcolm Collins:And I want to be clear to something about men. Okay? If you look at this and you see these women as betraying their country for having a predilection to find this stuff hot. Do men have a problem with having sex with? conquered women. The men who marry the conquered women are as morally culpable as the women who mate with the conquering men. I’ll explain why.

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I guess in in the same way that return with the v to land, is is insulted by the fact that all these men are replying who’ve married Latin American women. you’re saying that, like, the men who are fighting for, like, the Aryan race or France are are are betraying France or wherever because they’re not working to, in a very concentrated fashion, continue their their both genetic and cultural inheritance?

Malcolm Collins:So the reason why it’s so bad is when women do it, it is bad for two reasons. Okay? You you could argue. Reason number one is that you could say... If if you care about any form of, like, genetic ethnic purity, it’s bad for that reason. Right? Okay. And reason number two is they are betraying their own people, the people fighting for them in a war by marrying an outsider. But it is good for one reason. The women are choosing genetically more fit populations to breed with.

Simone Collins:So that... Yeah. Like like you said, historically, that’s true, but now it’s not necessarily true.

Malcolm Collins:No. I mean, that’s... In a war, that is true.

Simone Collins:No. Look. The genetically fit men of their population are out fighting the war further afield. They’ve been drafted. They’re gone. They’ve been lost.

Malcolm Collins:They lost the war. The French lost... That’s how you get under occupation.

Simone Collins:They were That’s a fair point. So they did an insufficiently bad job while being away from home.

Malcolm Collins:However, if you are a male while you are not betraying your country, that’s fairly... You could be because this is how a lot of reports were leaked. More leaks happen from men sleeping with women than from women sleeping with men in terms of valuable military secrets. So you are actually engaging in something that can be more harmful to the war effort than what the woman is doing. But in addition to that, you are doing something worse than the woman because you are marrying a genetically unfit population. If...

Simone Collins:This many tokens. See? Yeah. Because she hasn’t used any of her tokens ever. She’s only done learning things. She doesn’t watch cartoons. What?

Malcolm Collins:So you mean Can you show them the

Simone Collins:app so he can Show show mom. Show the

Malcolm Collins:app. Show the app to the screen.

Simone Collins:So, yeah, what... The the kids, since we’re recording, are on their on their tablets, and these are their Mudpuppy flashes from ARPAB.

Malcolm Collins:You see this? From ARPAB. You get these. These are each

Simone Collins:and 99 tokens. Yes. Kids earn tokens through the mudpuppy dot ai tablet flash by doing educational things. And Indy has 900 tokens. Octavian has how many? Like, one, 10? No. Three. Three. He has three tokens because someone is doing the work, and someone is only watching cartoons. Wait. Cartoons? Indie’s watching cartoons? No. Indie’s doing the work.

Malcolm Collins:Oh.

Simone Collins:I I guess. So you’re By the

Malcolm Collins:way, if you guys want a copy of this on your own children’s iPad, you can get it at mudpuppy.a I backslash o s operating system. It’s very easy to install. It will erase whatever is on the Android. It’s its own operating system.

Simone Collins:Although you you can just reinstall any apps you want and have them accessible through the app as well. So it’s not like you can’t use other apps. It just allows you to gate their access, really easily turn it on and off, make it contingent on other things, make it cost tokens to use them. So, like, they have to, like, spend this many, minutes doing educational stuff before they can start to

Malcolm Collins:play. Not make a mistake and go to the other site that uses the same back ends that we are on rfab.ai, which is a not safe for work website.

Simone Collins:Well, look. I use it as a creative studio, but, sure, you can also use it

Malcolm Collins:for I mean, yeah, we’re recording on this. It’s great for creative work. If you do any sort of, like, AI

Simone Collins:or every single day.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. I I use it every single day for work too. I use it way more for creative stuff and the API for it than I do. The API gives your existing AI coding agents. You go to rfab.ai backslash API, way more capabilities. Art, music, video generation, the ability to call you, the ability to check if something looks like it’s written by AI, all sorts of fun stuff that really anything I could think to give it, the ability to make three d assets for video games. It has music videos. It’s the thing that made our music videos. It’s really good at this stuff with the with the API. And not a lot of people use our API because, I guess, they think it’s too sophisticated for them.

Simone Collins:Literally paste it into Claude or Grock. Like, what... Subscription you’re paying for.

Malcolm Collins:Easy to use for art? Have you

Simone Collins:used it them? I actually haven’t used it for art. I just really... I’m I’m too attached now emotionally to the rfab dot ai creative studio because I really like being able to choose the model considerably and and be like, hey. Well, I I wanna use, like, five image references just to make one image in, and so I have to use GPT. But then I... Okay. Well, now I wanna make people look like they’re doing something that’s kind of, racy, so I have to use Grok. Like, you know, you have to be able to switch models a lot to do something.

Malcolm Collins:And by the way, if you if you want to learn how to use models better, one of the best features we offer on our site, and you can find this through the creator studio Yeah. Is our comparison page where we compare various image models and various video models at various tasks. Yeah. And you can get an understanding of how good they are at each of those tasks.

Simone Collins:You can really funny to see where some of the AIs are like, I can’t process this concept.

Malcolm Collins:Yes. The task that no AI can handle in the current AI ecosystem is a vampire biting somebody.

Simone Collins:Speaking of enemies to lovers, I’ll tell you what. Yes.

Malcolm Collins:This came from somewhere. So the point I’m making is that as a male, you are choosing a less fit female and opening yourselves even more to espionage. And yet we laugh at the women who do this and say it is a sign of their moral weakness while not attributing fault to the men who do.

Simone Collins:That’s a really good... Thank you. Finally, someone defending women here, and I guess it’s not me. Thank you.

Malcolm Collins:And I will say that not all men do. They do this at different rates with different levels of fidelity. You will notice that the American GIs were marrying at lower rates than the Russians or the Nazis were or having kids at lower rates at least. Well, that was mainly because they didn’t really rate people much because America is America, and we have something called morality in our country. Unlike these savage, what is it, Europeans with all of their sick backwards attitudes towards stuff. No. I’ve... Of course, we we also didn’t see this with the British soldiers. We didn’t see this with... I don’t know if we saw... We probably saw it with the French soldiers, if I’m gonna be honest, if they won anywhere, but they didn’t win anywhere. But, anyway, people can know what I’m gonna say

Simone Collins:because you

Malcolm Collins:can say

Simone Collins:the the the what? What was it? The the the conquest of of the... Norman Norman con... Am I, like, super... I just always mix up the names. France kinda kicked The UK’s butt, but before it was really The UK.

Malcolm Collins:But that wasn’t really France either.

Simone Collins:Well, fine. If you want to make it like that.

Malcolm Collins:No. No. They they... They’re they’re actually not French.

Speaker 8:Specifically, the Normans were a Scandinavian ethnic group, who had conquered that region. They were in no way, like, genetically French. the the people we think of as French today are not Normans. the Normans just adopted the French language.

Simone Collins:They they Oh, look. They they were from the region that is now known as France. Were they not?

Malcolm Collins:yes. But they ethnically aren’t what we call people... French people.

Simone Collins:Well, then where did the people who are now from France from?

Malcolm Collins:That it... That... We don’t need to get into this. I don’t remember it all. It’s a lot of ethnic history. I don’t remember.

Speaker 9:Specifically, what we think of it today, the French descended from Celtic Gauls that were conquered by the Romans, whereas what we call the Normans were descended from Vikings.

Malcolm Collins:Point being is if you go back to the bible. Okay. God tried a few mechanisms when conquering a population. At first, he seemed to be okay with the system. You know, going all the way back to the bible, we see people doing this. You conquer a region, you marry their women. Right? You you you kill all the kids, you kill all the the the husbands and everything, but you marry the women. Great. Yeah. And then he moves to another strategy, which is actually... You really shouldn’t be doing that. You need to deal with the entire population.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah. There are there are instances where he’s like, no. Really, actually, don’t marry their women. Please don’t do this. They are set aside. You are not to touch them. Do not

Malcolm Collins:I I think a better strategy and a more ethical strategy in a modern context, which is, sterilizing defeated populations. If they have proven less fit and have done enough to warrant a full on ground invasion, you don’t want to leave them in the area. And and the... Otherwise, it’s going to cause long term pain as I think we saw with with god and the Amokites. Right? Like, there... There’s a reason that we’re given these stories, but I don’t think we need to be as brutalistic as the ancestors of going in and and slaughtering a people. I think that’s evil. That that said, going into a region and attempting to live alongside a conquered people, I don’t think that that’s really played out very well frequently in history. Like, when I’m thinking historically, how often has that played out particularly well? The the answer is very, very rarely. Hong Kong might be the best example. I’m trying to think. Like, if... I mean, like, if you look at the the tensions you have in a lot of places in, like, Latin America, obviously, these places, you know, very impoverished, very corrupt. Like, it hasn’t hasn’t worked out very well. India worked out okay ish, but, like, when you look at the average competence of Indians in other places, their country should be a lot more wealthy than it is. So, you know, I don’t I don’t know how you... How about what you could say it worked out there. A lot of Africa clearly didn’t work out very well. So the question is is how do you long term treat invasions? I don’t I don’t know. I mean, obviously, the the... You could say, well, then you just don’t invade people, but, like, sometimes groups attack you. Sometimes groups... Like, what if a group attacks you over and over again? Right? Which is what happened with the people of Europe during this period. Yeah. It’s a difficult situation. Actually, probably the better way. So sterilization is a little harsh. I think with newer technology, we can do better things than that. and I’ve talked... I think probably the best way when you have the technology is some form of gene drive, which allows them to continue to have children, allows them to continue to build families. It just changes up the gender ratios of those children. And, we go over this in our mosquito weekend episode of how this works.

Simone Collins:Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:I think that’s probably the best way to do it so you can allow continued normal family formation. It’s just, you get less of the population every generation.

Simone Collins:Yeah. I I guess if you wanna systematically eliminate a population, I just

Malcolm Collins:The point I’m making is if a group has forced you to conquer them.

Simone Collins:Oh, I see. Where they’re like, there’s not enough world in this... I’m sorry. There’s not enough room in this world for the both of us.

Malcolm Collins:No. It’s not just that. You’re living alongside a group that you conquered that hates you. Oh. Oh. I’m pointing out that historically Okay. This almost always reverses with some form of of of of splitting or long term conflict that ends up with much more aggregate suffering in the region.

Simone Collins:Right. Right. And so... Okay.

Malcolm Collins:I’m trying to think how do you reduce long term suffering after a conquest?

Simone Collins:Yeah. I’m I’m trying to think. Yeah. And and I’m saying you don’t like, very gentle form of [bleep]. and I’m like, what’s what’s a nicer way to do that? And and and I’m like, well, I I guess they say with, like, kins, they don’t like each other. You just cover each of them with, what, tuna fish oil or something and leave in... Leave them in a bathroom for two hours and hope for the best. And I’m like, how

Malcolm Collins:do we do this with What are you talking about?

Speaker 10:What she is talking about has nothing to do with children. It has to do with a fulcrumity for cats that don’t get along, um and it is generally thought of as a terrible idea in modern context.

Simone Collins:I know. I know. It’s just I think it’s a... An old wives tale or something. But, like, I’m just trying to think of, like, how do you get groups that really hate each other to, like, suddenly be okay with each other? And I

Malcolm Collins:Simone, if a group genuinely has a different ideology than you Yeah. Your only other solution is cultural [bleep], which is just as bad and significantly more brutal,

Simone Collins:which is I to mean, cultural... You mean just, like, act like killing [bleep] is what you mean.

Malcolm Collins:Right? Cultural [bleep] is the forcible eradication of their culture.

Simone Collins:You mean, like, what woke culture does to everything that it touches? That

Malcolm Collins:Yes. Or, like, taking their kids and putting them in education camps where they’re not taught about their ancestors and taught about their ways of doing things. Right. Right. Right.

Simone Collins:Right. Gotta what China does to the Uighurs. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I see. Okay. Well, I I would say cultural [bleep] is more gentle than... You know? Than a gene drive? It is absolutely them in the oven’s [bleep].

Malcolm Collins:Obviously, it is. But, like, if you’re ranking genocides, like Sure. Oven [bleep]

Simone Collins:worse of [bleep]. Cultural [bleep], less worse. Gene drive [bleep], nicest. Like that episode of Stargate.

Speaker 11:Vaccine causes sterility. That was the headline. You wiped out most of the volian population and turned their entire world into farmland.

Simone Collins:Yeah. I If are

Malcolm Collins:putting these on a spectrum, where does cultural [bleep] fit? I think it’s a lot lot closer to the actually kill... The, like, the oven [bleep] than gene drives.

Simone Collins:Guess it’s more it’s more it’s more offensive. Yeah. Because you’re you’re at least allowing the culture to be true to itself while it diminishes into nothingness. I think that, like, if if I could really have my druthers, I think it would be planetary exile [bleep]. Like, you can go be yourselves on another planet. Like, you know, the the the version of, like, sending people to Australia as convicts or whatever. Right?

Malcolm Collins:And that Possible, but I have a good feeling that the first time that’s tried, the planet ends up building up eventually and then coming back to attack you and try to conquer your planet.

Simone Collins:Right. Yeah. It will... I mean, I I think that’s a that’s a more fair more fair from a... For lack of a better term, Darwinian perspective because then still the strongest one will eventually live. Though, I guess, it’s at the grace of the the ones No.

Malcolm Collins:Your weakness was through the decision that you made

Simone Collins:to allow a fair point. I know. Look. I’m a woman. I don’t like the shock scenario. I

Malcolm Collins:If if you always give them second chance.

Simone Collins:We’re doing the gene drive. Never mind. It’s fine.

Malcolm Collins:we’ll do the always give them a second chance and they never give you a second chance

Simone Collins:Yeah. You can

Malcolm Collins:win 50 times. They can win once.

Simone Collins:Yeah. It’s that whole Margaret Thatcher thing.

Malcolm Collins:We only have to be right once. Right? Yeah. You you have facilitated genetic terrorism.

Simone Collins:Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah. No. Okay. I’ve been... Sorry. Well, you know, not everyone is as sharp as you are. You know, more people are on my level listening to this podcast than you. So maybe some people like me were like, well, I don’t know that. Maybe there’s a better way to do this. So Women rule that out at this point and that the gene drive approach is is probably

Malcolm Collins:Yes. Women are obviously more likely to betray their own people. We’ve seen this. That is one outcome of this. But males are not moral paragons either and should be looked at with disgust if they marry in to conquered populations. That needs to be normalized. Because if that’s not normalized, you will eventually be conquered from within as they talk about how the Greeks culturally conquered Rome even though Rome conquered Greece. Oh, yeah. This can’t happen. No. Okay. Alright. Love you, Simone.

Simone Collins:I love you too. I’m I’m sorry for being such a traitorous monster. And

Malcolm Collins:And if you want to, as a guy... Because just as women have this deep biological instinct to want to to breed with the conquerors, okay, If you as a guy have a biological instinct to conquer a population and take a wife from among the the women you capture, you can always play out these scenarios in your imagination.

Simone Collins:Oh, this is true.

Malcolm Collins:Realityfabricator.ai, and enjoy that hypothetically while not being tempted to do it in

Simone Collins:actual reality. Or is it rfab.ai?

Malcolm Collins:It’s rfab.ai. What’s confusing about that?

Simone Collins:Because you said realityfabricator.ai.

Malcolm Collins:Well, you could... Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. You can look up Reality Fabricator. It’s r f a b dot a I. Love you. Have a good day.

Simone Collins:I love you too. Good day.

Speaker 1:I just... It’s like you giving me a bouquet of flowers.

Malcolm Collins:The Mario Kart noise at the beginning of the recording?

Simone Collins:Yes. It’s delightful.

Malcolm Collins:This is why vibe coding is wonderful. This is why vibe coding is wonderful. You you hear even, India like this. She’s like, funny. She’s so funny. She’s such funny, but she can’t hear it for the record. She didn’t hear it?

Simone Collins:No. Because I have headphones on because I don’t want echo. I care about audio quality.

Malcolm Collins:Okay, Simone. And this is working? Yeah. It is. Thank you. Okay.

Simone Collins:I like it. Mommy, I like it.

Malcolm Collins:And I will jump right into it so we can try to get through everything today?

Simone Collins:Yes. I’m super excited.

Speaker 14:Wait. Let’s just walk him. Put him back in the wall. That’s what I’m gonna do with my salamander. He’s just going. So happy. Relax, mommy.

Speaker 15:I don’t know how

Speaker 14:happy he is. Well, I think he is happy, but he finally get away.

Speaker 15:I think he thinks he’s about to die.