WEBVTT
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Welcome to Bake This Book.
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My name is Eric Fabian.
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I'm a home baker and co-founder of Sour House.
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Today, we're going to talk with cookbook authors, folks who focus on naturally fermented sourdough breads and pastries.
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We're going to talk about their books, how they were made, the recipes inside, and tips for making your next bake a really great bake.
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Here we go.
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Bakers, welcome.
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Thank you for joining me today for this very special live recording of Bake This Book, live from Scowhegan at the Needing Conference.
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We gather here today for the pleasure of speaking with Rose Wild, the author of Bread and Roses, 100 Plus Grain Ford Recipes featuring global ingredients and botanicals, published by Countryman Press in 2023 with illustrations by Stacey Michelson and photographs by Rebecca Stunt.
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So Rose, she's a Los Angeles chef, writer, founder of Red Bread, a micro bakery.
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You launched in 2011, I believe.
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Which delivers baked goods originally by bike from my research.
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Yeah.
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And then eventually went through farmers markets, and then now is part of pastry and bread programs with Los Angeles restaurants.
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Grew up in Ecuador, trained as an actor, worked as a human rights lawyer before turning to baking, and is also a master gardener, a master food preserver, and the co-host of our own podcast, the Kitchen Tape Podcast.
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So Brennan Roses was named the best book of 2023 by both Los Angeles Times and Bonapet.
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It was described as a book of recipes for brown bread or brown flour, I guess, right?
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Yes.
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And uh I'm excited to get into this, but first, let me ask you a question.
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So if you can imagine with me for a second, uh you're at home, somebody has just put in their headphones, and they are about to do some baking, and you're there shoulder to shoulder with them, and you have some of these whole grain flowers that uh you advocate for, how would you help this person learn to taste the flowers better?
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Hmm.
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Um, I love this question because for me, flavor is the most important and most like the most winning argument to connect to another person about why you should have whole grains because there is so much flavor.
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But if you haven't tasted them a lot, then a lot of it reads is the same, right?
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We have to build our palate.
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So I think you have to give yourself some grace if you taste grains and you're like, I don't get it, I'm not tasting it, you know, and and allow yourself to open up.
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They say we have to taste things like seven times before we know it.
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This is like something parents know because you watch your kid like reject things nonstop.
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So in my book, I developed a flavor wheel to help like guide people to get some of the language because that's pretty empowering to put into.
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And then I have these tests that I didn't develop but have become my go-to.
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So they're like, when I say I didn't develop them, it's like they're so old.
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They're like the ways we learn bread and apprentice.
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So one of the ways I tell people to taste grain is to mill it and then simply mix it with water to make like a really simple porridge and kind of let it sit for a couple minutes and come back to it.
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And not only will you be able to like taste the grain then, but you're all you'll also get some information about like how much hydration it needs.
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And this is cold water, yeah, cold water.
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Or or you can just use room tap, like just you're not trying to like hot water is obviously gonna make it loose or cook it.
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So we're really just trying to make like a little porridge so we can taste something, but you're gonna see it either like kind of get tight or it'll stay loose.
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And so that gives you information about how it's gonna act in more complicated baked goods.
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And then um, once I kind of know if I want to go pastry or bread with it, um, and what kind of flavors I want to pull out of it, I'll do what I call the shortbread test and make shortbread because shortbread's so easy butter, sugar, flour.
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And that really that fat allows like the rest of the flavor to bloom.
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So I really love exploring whole grains in bread and in pastry because you get such different expressions even from the same grain because of what it's paired with.
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I want to come back to that a little bit further because I I think the taste piece of uh whole grains is always very fascinating.
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But just to kind of ground us also in who you are, you seem to be a very busy woman.
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And I think in LA, are you a multi-hyphenite, you know, kind of.
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Oh, yeah, that's what they call it.
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Yeah.
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Um, how does a human rights lawyer become a baker?
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Well, so I I worked in human rights for several years.
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Um, I worked for an international nonprofit.
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Um, my particular field of expertise was writing legislation.
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So I really approached it like I was trying to write a perfect poem.
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The right words had the power to protect someone.
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And I really was assigned to protect uh vulnerable groups, and that generally meant women and children from different areas of countries that we represented, and all of the issues they were facing overlapped with food.
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So, beyond my personal experiences of traveling and encountering as an eater global food systems that had huge variances, I began to see the systems in place that made it more difficult and like unnecessarily so for us to access and maintain nutrition and get food to the people who needed it.
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And so there was so much overlap.
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And then this particular profession, lawyers in general, there's extremely high burnout.
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Human rights, especially, has extremely high burnout.
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I think for obvious reasons, you're reading some really intense stuff, you're working on intense stuff.
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And I had always baked um just for fun.
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I learned how to make pies and muffins really young because I said I grew up in Ecuador.
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So when I came back to this country, we moved around a lot, and um my birthday is the first week of school.
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So my mom taught me how to make a cookie and a muffin and a pie, and I would literally hijack class and like make friends because everyone wanted to be friends with the girl who got a cookie.
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So it was it was very ingrained on me early on that like a baked good was like the fastest way to make a friend, a cookie was the fastest way to make someone smile.
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So when I was feeling really like I was struggling with mental health from my profession, I kind of took a break and baked.
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And in giving people cookies and these smaller things, um, I found like life coming back to me, truly.
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So baking very much saved me in that way.
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Um, and then I was told not to eat bread, and this was this was in 2011.
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So it was when like any ailment you had, people were like, Stop eating bread, but no one actually could tell you what gluten was.
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So it was like the silver bullet that we love in this country.
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And so I always like I'm prone to interpreting things as a dare.
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So I was like, okay.
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Um, and so I thought, well, we gotta make like the purest form that everyone could agree on is bread, which means globally, what do we agree on is bread?
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Which is when I found out that the United States differs from the rest of the world on not only the definition of bread, but the definition of food, which is incredibly alarming.
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But salt, flour, water.
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So I I dove in the sourdough bread.
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I made it even before I had it out of the oven, just having my hands in it.
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I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life.
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This feels so good.
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And then when it came out, it came out great.
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And so I just kept I kept doing it and then kept experimenting.
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And my parents had run a whole grain restaurant when I was young, which I didn't know about until I opened my own, and then they told me.
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Uh, but I had grown up with them.
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So it was also, as much as it was forward thinking, it was also just the only thing I knew.
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Uh, and I think that was the transition.
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It was really kind of going back into myself.
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Yeah.
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I don't think you're alone.
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I mean, I obviously COVID being the big story of people turning to sourdough baking for solace and uh both for the physical contact of it, and uh also I think it's amazing that you kind of figured out so young that baking makes you the most popular person on the clock.
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So we all have a superpower that I think others can be.
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Yeah, I utilized it as much as I could growing up.
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Like if there was a group project and I saw someone was slacking, I was like, well, I guess I'm making a pie to make up for this guy.
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And I was the class president of my law school, pretty sure it's because I made a thousand cupcakes.
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So it's the secret to life right there.
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Oh so you have named this book Bread and Roses.
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I am sly enough to figure out that partially that is because your name is Rose.
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But I also sense there's a few other layers to that name choice.
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Yeah.
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One that it evokes a labor history, that idea people should not only survive, but also survive and thrive.
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And thrive, yeah.
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Yeah.
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And you bring up this kind of investigation that happened um on a very personal terms into the food that you were eating and how we understand and define food today.
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Now, years past the publication of this book, where are your concerns about the food system today?
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Like, how are you thinking about it?
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And like, where are your concerns when you think about people both surviving and thriving when it comes to food?
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Yeah, I I mean, we've had the largest cuts to Snap ever.
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I think they said that like 2.6 billion people can't access good food globally, um, most of whom are children.
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So it's very disheartening that we are deprioritizing the one thing that connects us all.
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And I think when you're young, and certainly this is my experience, I was naive enough to think like we were just not asking the right questions.
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We hadn't done the research, we didn't have a good example.
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If we could find that, then surely we would mimic it.
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And unfortunately, that's not the case, right?
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Because we have some pretty great examples in other countries of food systems, and we can't get our country to mimic them.
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So I think unfortunately it goes beyond food, like to lobbyists and campaign financing that decides like what's in our food, right?
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Like so I said earlier in the UN millennial goals where food is defined, like I'm paraphrasing, but like everyone else in the world signed on to like food comes from the ground.
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It's controversial, right?
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It grows.
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And we wanted it to say that it could also be lab manufactured, it could also be engineered, and that was unacceptable, so we didn't sign it.
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A document that also has goals about like women's right and children's rights.
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So it's like that that was the breaking point for us.
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So I think that is really telling because our industry on food really separated from the rest of the world around World War II because we had this huge machine that wasn't broken.
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So we didn't have to go back to the fields, we just switched it on, which is why most of our food that people can't afford is basically war rations, like things that will stay okay for years.
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So, do you think for you, baking bread, a form of solace, form of comfort, is it also a form of protest?
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I think it's a form of revolution, yeah.
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I think it's an active way to remember how food is made, how simply it's made, how it's a birthright for us all to know where our food comes from and how it gets made and the fact that you can.
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You know, I think it's so I'm so motivated when people say they're afraid to make something because it's like this was only lost a generation or two ago, and it was something everyone knew and everyone could partake in.
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And I see so much confidence that goes beyond baking from people who learn to do something well, you know?
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And I think bread, as much as it feels challenging, is such a great vehicle to enter baking with because it wants to happen, because it's a biological entity you're like engaging with, right?
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And I think it's the closest thing to magic.
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I think it's like three ingredients, and then you're just like, whoo, eat it, be nourished, you know?
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Like it's amazing.
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Yeah, I say the same thing about sourdough and fermentation, because like I feel like we're all these wizards keeping these potions at home and we're transforming unedible things into edible things.
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And uh yeah, I I I agree with you there.
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And I think it's also fascinating because like, you know, a lot of these foods, particularly, you know, we focus on the conversation around sourdough baking.
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You know, it's a gateway drug into fermentation in general, and then also local food systems and uh places where you're gonna find uh local grains and things like that are celebrating.
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It's all part of like the revolution.
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Like anytime we can create those small communities, it's so fascinating to me because what what I learned in international development is that you like top-down doesn't work, even though we keep doing that.
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You're supposed to create these small, strong hubs that link up, and then you have a sustainable community.
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And that's exactly what I think we're doing here at Maine Grain Alliance in in the conference, and also all the bakers and millers and farmers in their individual places.
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Like so, all that bad news, but like the other side is I think there's a lot to be celebrated because so many more people know what full grain means, what sourdough means, so many more people are interested in milling again and baking again, and these things that we were told all the machines would have taken from us already.
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Which you know is I think also hope for the future, you know.
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Like, yeah, and I think this on this hopeful note, this other interpretation of the title of your book, where it's bread and roses, referring to kind of the botanics and the kind of the rest of the garbage that might end up in your bread and pastry and other sorts of things.
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Yeah.
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So I wonder if you could also talk about like let's let's kind of maybe transition a little bit into like that perspective on writing this book and how you bake.
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Like I do some poragine, I do you know, some urgent urban porridge and stuff.
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I have a little bit of a vocabulary that I do play with herbs and stuff, but I'm not that familiar with a lot of the kind of like ornamental flowers and where they overlap with edible flowers.
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And and I have some interest of it.
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Yeah, I'm a little bit of a kitchen witch.
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Um where do people find these ingredients and source them and how do they use them safely?
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I think that's a great question because I feel like there's been an explosion of interest in more botanical baking.
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I hope it gets deeper into using it more for flavor, which is what my book champions, but certainly people have caught on to the decorating with it, and I often see cakes or things being decorated with things that are toxic or just like have a sap that's just gonna taste nasty.
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So I think it's another area you have to learn.
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And there's no cheat sheet.
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Like, so you have to be really interested.
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That's part of the reason why I became a master gardener.
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I also really enjoyed gardening, but I really wanted to know a lot about plants, um, which is how I realized vegetables are a lie.
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It is a social construct when you eat that during a meal.
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Otherwise, it is just root, stems, leaves, fruit, and blossoms.
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And so that really changed my perspective of like I'm just using parts of a plant.
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And that's how I pulled out my um philosophy for botanicals of cooking root to blossom, which is a play on nose to tail.
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I haven't figured out the joke of everything but the squeal, like what's the equivalent for the flower?
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Um the flower screen.
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Or the vegetable dark.
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Um, but that really opened me up, and so I use I use a lot of leaves, like I use fig leaves, has been become popular, but peach leaves and other stone fruit leaves have an almond flavor, avocado leaves taste like aniseed, it's beautiful infused into things.
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I love charring lemon leaves and grinding them down into sugar.
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It tastes like fruit loops.
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And then I think we forget also that everything flowers.
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So, like your chive flower, your thyme flower is taste of the plant.
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It's just another shade.
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And then because I've traveled so much, I've seen so many of these flowers and leaves and other parts of the plants being used in a way that just makes it very clear that like a lot of what we think is usable on plants is because we're steeped in waste culture.
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You know, and we have some of it where we're like, oh, we'll save that for stock.
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But like you could also use so many things immediately that we think are trash.
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Um, and other cultures don't do that because they don't have the illusion of abundance and the economic advantage that we have.
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And so I really look to like global definitions of how we use food.
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That's also how I navigate definitions of what's toxic and edible, like because it's food has long been one of the core soft powers uh of this nation, of most nations.
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So othering certain ingredients and giving them a damaging story was also a way to oppress people, right?
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I think the one most people know is like MSG, which was a way to make Asian, particularly Chinese people targets during the 80s and 90s, even though it's a Japanese invention and it comes from kelp, so from seaweed, so it couldn't be more natural.
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There's also this thing called the tanka bean, which is this beautiful bean that tastes like an almond and a vanilla bean had a baby and it's magical.
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It's still technically illegal in this country because it was useful to make Latin American people a target.
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So it's really useful to do searches beyond the United States USDA's definition of what's safe because a lot of that is politically coded, even if though we don't might not know it.
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So yeah, that's how I navigate a lot of that.
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I just want to learn from other cultures.
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Yeah, and I agree with you in that words matter.
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I I get really upset with the you know the notion of weeds and kind of it's just the flower you haven't made a friend with yet.
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Yeah, and if you know, I I will go to blows if you disagree that a dandelion is not a pretty little flower, you know.
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But uh also so many other cultures like make festivals and seasons out of going to the mountains for this one week when things flower, you know, like and I think in much like whole grains and like good food, it's starting to become a luxury item in this country.
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And it's like, where do you see edible flowers on a menu?
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11th Madison Park.
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But if you go anywhere else, it's in that Nona's house and she cooked it for you.
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So yeah, and I I want to return to some of the techniques that you referenced, but it seems like the thing that connects the dots for me on your story so far, both from the kind of political point of view you're sharing as well as the baking strategies and taste point of view, it all comes back to travel and like your like lifelong experience in other countries and exposing stuff.
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Not everybody has the opportunity to kind of travel like you do and develop that pantry and that kind of palette in that way.
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And I and it's I think what's cool in this book, which is it's a deceivingly dense book if you haven't looked at it.
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It's like it covers a lot of basics of things.
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There's a lot of recipes, but there's sections on tasting, on sourcing, on different types of plants and foraging.
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So I think this is I I kind of see this as your shortcut into for the rest of us to try to have live the grand life of exploration you have.
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But could you talk a little bit more about like how your traveling experience throughout your life at different ages kind of like led you to this strategy of like thinking about food and thinking about flavors?
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:54.539
Yeah, well, I think the because of that, that actually is why I uh and combined with COVID when I first started writing this when I sold it, is why I organized the book globally, because it was the easiest way for me to think to to give such a vast amount of information that I thought I had collected through my travels and research.
00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:58.219
So I was born in Florida, but I grew up in Ecuador.
00:20:58.379 --> 00:21:04.459
Um, and so the grains that I mostly experience day to day was primarily quinoa and amaranth.
00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:08.299
And I just assumed that was what everyone was eating, because that's what everyone was eating there.
00:21:08.459 --> 00:21:11.579
Um, and I, you know, you don't ask those kinds of questions.
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:16.779
And then when I came back to the States, obviously I took quinoa pudding to school, and that was witch food.
00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:21.659
So I learned very quickly like there was something different about the way I ate versus the way other people ate.
00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:24.779
No one wanted to give me their snack pack for my quinoa pudding.
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:28.859
And then uh I don't come from a wealthy background.
00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:40.859
My ability to travel has come literally from writing essays and going after grants or offering to work study a trip and lead something because I have to have been there before I speak the language.
00:21:41.179 --> 00:22:02.539
I had the opportunity while I was in college to study in Spain and Italy and France and kind of saw those food systems which are very close and still very different, and like obviously I was eating all the carbs possible in all these places, which also like helped inform me when I was suddenly told that I couldn't have bread anymore.
00:22:02.699 --> 00:22:05.740
I was like, I don't even eat it in this country because it's gross.
00:22:05.899 --> 00:22:10.939
It doesn't taste like anything, but I definitely eat it everywhere else, and I'm having these problems here.
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:23.579
So I feel like it lent me an analysis to food that, as you say, if you haven't experienced a different set of food norms, it can be different, it can you can't know what you don't know.
00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:26.459
And then it had My life's goal to go to Tibet.
00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:33.979
So I went to Tibet after college for a year and like helped build an orphanage and worked with a lot of women there and cooked there.
00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:41.259
And that's actually where I thought of the porridge test because two to three meals a day is roasted barley flour.
00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:42.139
It's the stampa.
00:22:42.619 --> 00:22:42.939
Stampa.
00:22:43.099 --> 00:22:43.819
Yeah, you gotta do that.
00:22:44.139 --> 00:22:44.379
I saw that.
00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:47.659
Yeah, which I also put on my menu at my um bakery.
00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:48.059
Uh-huh.
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:49.979
Can you do you think it was a huge hit?
00:22:51.740 --> 00:23:00.859
Um, it's one of those things where it's like you start eating and you're like, wow, this is intense, and then suddenly it's like something you deeply, deeply crave because it's so nourishing and complex.
00:23:00.939 --> 00:23:05.579
But when you first start eating it, it just kind of blows you out because it's not something you know in your palate.
00:23:05.899 --> 00:23:09.740
In the book, I believe I have it with like yogurt, honey, and roasted kumquats.
00:23:10.139 --> 00:23:14.219
We used to serve with all kinds of different toppings, but it was, it was, it's so simple.
00:23:14.379 --> 00:23:19.259
You know, you water and toasted barley and let it sit and then you eat it.
00:23:19.419 --> 00:23:22.859
And if you're gonna be hiking, you make it stiffer into balls.
00:23:23.019 --> 00:23:26.139
So I was like, this is a really great way to try flour.
00:23:26.219 --> 00:23:30.219
So I feel like I've always I was always like filing little things away.
00:23:30.379 --> 00:23:40.059
And then uh I briefly worked for the State Department, so I got to experience and was stationed in Greece, so I got to experience like Moroccan food and Greek food and North African food.
00:23:40.139 --> 00:23:47.659
And and I I don't think I realized I was actively comparing and contrasting, but I think that's just how I'm wired.
00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:52.139
And so when I sat down, it was how I pulled from everything.
00:23:52.379 --> 00:24:12.779
But I do think that because we live in an age where we have these little boxes in our hands that are gateways to all of human knowledge, like you can just ask some good questions, and you can not only ask some good questions and find some good answers on the internet, but there are communities where you can tap into the people from that culture and ask them questions.
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:17.579
So there's ways to engage without necessarily traveling.
00:24:17.899 --> 00:24:31.579
You also uh mentioned in your introduction about how food connects people, like obviously bringing cupcakes and stuff, the school is part of that, but also how like large family parties encouraged you to learn to cook economically.
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:34.219
And then you obviously saw a variety of grains around the world.
00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:38.459
You make this observation that most babies' first foods are grains and yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:38.619 --> 00:24:41.019
Everyone, every baby is like bread or porridge.
00:24:41.259 --> 00:24:43.740
Yeah, and so were you from a large family?
00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:48.779
Did you encounter like large families through your home stays and stuff and places or like how did that fit in?
00:24:49.339 --> 00:24:55.099
So I'm one of three, but my larger Hispanic family, I mean, I have 60 cousins.
00:24:55.659 --> 00:24:57.339
So like there's a lot of us.
00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:02.219
My mom is one of six, so we're kind of the smallest generation, I guess.
00:25:02.459 --> 00:25:07.500
And also in Ecuador, like you come home for lunch and it's like a two-hour fair, and then you go back to school.
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:12.699
So it's very meal-centered, and then breakfast and dinner would be like a sweet bun and hot chocolate.
00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:24.139
Like, so bread is very centered too, and a lot of that is because it's it's accessible if you don't have a lot of money, you know, and it's nourishing, like whole grains, like so much protein.
00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:33.740
So I really love these big meals, and we were always drafted to help our aunts and uncles, and I was always trying to figure out how to do less dishes.
00:25:33.899 --> 00:25:38.859
That was my primary motivation, which is how I like streamlined a lot of things.
00:25:38.939 --> 00:25:42.299
Um, I'm also just a big proponent of working smarter, not harder.
00:25:42.459 --> 00:25:49.259
And now I've married into an Iranian Jewish family, and so like that's massive family.
00:25:49.659 --> 00:25:56.779
We were, well, we haven't actually officially had our wedding, but I was told it could be small, but for him that meant 250 people.
00:25:56.939 --> 00:25:58.699
So we just need to talk a little more.
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:00.779
I was thinking 30.
00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:07.979
But yeah, so I feel like I'm constantly drawn to these cultures of generosity and lots of people.
00:26:08.059 --> 00:26:19.740
And I think this was bigger and a lot more cultures, and we've kind of built up systems that have separated us and again deprioritized food so that more and more people I think are eating like dirty line cooks, like over the trash can.
00:26:19.979 --> 00:26:21.979
Yeah, it's interesting or in the alley.
00:26:23.419 --> 00:26:27.500
I first of all just want to say I'm sad for all those cousins that aren't gonna make it to your wedding.
00:26:29.419 --> 00:26:39.659
But also, uh, it's interesting to me that we are gathered here to like talk about bread and grain and foods, and like this is a fancy kind of luxury experience, I think, for a lot of us.
00:26:39.819 --> 00:26:55.179
But it's strange that it's both how bread is right now has become this like affluent sort of a status symbol thing, but it's also the most basic of foods, and it's most it is the most economic of foods, and those things are kind of disconnected right now.
00:26:55.419 --> 00:27:06.139
And I think it's a shame when I start to hear people talk about bread as somehow inaccessible or too elite or something because of the positioning it has today.
00:27:06.299 --> 00:27:06.459
Yeah.
00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:09.979
Um because it really is, I think, something for everybody in some form.
00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:14.059
So, and towards that, like let's talk about some skills and some and stuff like that.
00:27:14.139 --> 00:27:19.019
Uh, you know, as a sourdough podcast, I have to ask, you mentioned sourdough throughout your book.
00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:24.619
I wonder not just with bread, but with pastry, like, where does sourdough shine?
00:27:24.699 --> 00:27:30.379
Like, when is that a move that really when you're making a recipe where you're like, I need to bring a little sourdough into this?
00:27:30.459 --> 00:27:33.899
Are you always looking for that opportunity because of health reasons or whatever?
00:27:34.059 --> 00:27:36.059
Or do you think it's like a flavor strategy?
00:27:36.379 --> 00:27:44.299
I I mean, I like to use it definitely as a flavor strategy because it it's got a nice like grassy tang to it, you know, when it's active and happy.
00:27:44.379 --> 00:27:47.579
And so, like, that can be a nice element to balance sugar.
00:27:47.819 --> 00:28:00.219
Um, but also I I think that put it everywhere and anywhere because baking powder and baking soda are the great American contribution to baking, and they're relatively new, like 100 years, maybe a little more.
00:28:00.459 --> 00:28:04.939
And before that, all cakes were leavened with sourdough, all cookies were leavened with sourdough.
00:28:05.179 --> 00:28:09.979
So, like, I think that there is the opportunity for it to be everywhere.
00:28:10.139 --> 00:28:13.500
And if you like the flavor, then it's in your arsenal.
00:28:13.819 --> 00:28:17.579
I also love to put it in things that I inherently know are gonna sit.
00:28:17.659 --> 00:28:31.579
So I do love to throw it in a lot of cookies because they're like sort of curing all their flavors together, and I think they um I'm like, well, there's already sit happening there, so let's see if we can get some fermentation out of it also, and just make this more digestible, sure.
00:28:31.659 --> 00:28:36.299
But it also unlocks more flavor, so it's like we're we're just giving it like a supercharge.
00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:44.139
So I'll throw it in my pie dough, all my pie doughs have a little sourdough in it, all my cookies have a little sourdough in it.
00:28:44.299 --> 00:28:49.819
I'm not generally relying on those as the only leavening, but I like to add it.
00:28:49.899 --> 00:28:55.899
And then when I make bread, um, even though my book offers you yeast, hybrid, and sourdough, it's always sourdough.
00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:12.219
Going back to some of your comments about using botanicals in different creations, uh I feel like there's in addition to kind of decorative moves, there's a lot of different ways that those flavors can get incorporated into a bread or a pastry.
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:18.379
If I had to pick one, I'm guessing infusion is kind of a grand strategy that works with a lot of stuff.
00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:24.379
But if you were to just give people one or two moves to kind of like, you know, how what would you suggest are there ways to have a cup?
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:27.659
Um suspending things in oil is an excellent way.
00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:35.019
Uh, you know, I I um blanch and blend all those leaves I mentioned before into grapeseed oil.
00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:43.419
And then I have for um dropping into testers, dropping into buttercreams, using as the oil for a cake, and it's fully infused.
00:29:43.899 --> 00:29:51.500
Or you can double it up in savory and make a vinaigrette or beautiful agua chili, like they become just something you can use in your kitchen.
00:29:51.659 --> 00:29:53.819
So oil infusions are really beautiful.
00:29:53.979 --> 00:29:58.619
It's gonna be a lot of fats, you know, and so like cream is a great way to infuse a lot of flavor.
00:29:58.939 --> 00:30:05.819
Dehydrating it overnight or in your oven, or if you have a dehydrator and powdering it gives you the ability to really measure it out.
00:30:05.899 --> 00:30:09.099
So you're basically creating a ground spice for yourself.
00:30:09.179 --> 00:30:17.659
Um, that's another way I use a lot, or I'll do that, but grind it with sugar to create a sugar because that's another big base of a lot of pastry.
00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:22.939
So that's like a really stable way that's going to absorb those oils, but then I can use it in a recipe.
00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:28.779
So it's really about building some of my bases rather than like, oh, how do I get it into this recipe?
00:30:28.939 --> 00:30:33.500
It's like, what becomes the base that I can pull from, then to activate that.
00:30:33.659 --> 00:30:38.379
I also dry a lot of things and treat it like tea, so it's also an infusion, but into water.
00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:41.339
Yeah, I think those are my immediate go-to's.
00:30:41.659 --> 00:30:42.779
Yeah, I I forget.
00:30:42.939 --> 00:30:50.699
I just like forget to how easy some of that stuff is and you know, to pull out and to kind of add a lot of flavor to to breads and different things.
00:30:50.779 --> 00:31:00.139
And uh, and then I always have ambitions to ferment more and to like make more little jams and jellies and thingies, you know, and like and have that around.
00:31:00.219 --> 00:31:08.619
And you have a lot of some of that stuff in your book that I think a lot of ferments and yeah, jams little moves like that I think are are great for having to layer into things.
00:31:08.779 --> 00:31:12.859
You know what's a cool one I recently learned though is like um doing it with ice.
00:31:13.179 --> 00:31:15.099
And I think it's the bartender's trick.
00:31:15.179 --> 00:31:15.419
Uh-huh.
00:31:15.579 --> 00:31:25.099
So I'll like pack and grind and blend herbs into ice and then freeze that into like a big so it's like a big puck, uh-huh.
00:31:25.259 --> 00:31:29.419
And then you put that over a sieve with um a cheesecloth and let it melt.
00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:34.299
And the first water that melts is like crazy infused with flavor.
00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:34.779
Really?
00:31:34.939 --> 00:31:43.099
So this works with like fruit too, and that's how they get those like that's how you can have a cocktail and it's like one sip, and you're like, wow, how does that taste so much like mango?
00:31:43.179 --> 00:31:47.419
It's like they're freezing the mango juice and then letting it melt.
00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:50.619
And the first part that falls has the most volatile flavors.
00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:51.019
Wow.
00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:52.539
That's uh oh, that's interesting.
00:31:52.699 --> 00:31:53.740
Yeah, it's very cool.
00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:56.139
I just learned it, so now you guys know it too.
00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:03.019
And then I wouldn't say that I have the most precise of palettes.
00:32:03.179 --> 00:32:13.740
Like my mom is like one of those people that's kind of more of a super taster and she can pick out everything, and like, but you you introduce like you know, a food wheel and kind of like a tasting chart kind of thing.
00:32:13.819 --> 00:32:18.299
So making the tasting of bread and and pastry more like wine.
00:32:18.459 --> 00:32:18.619
Yeah.
00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:20.459
And um that was the inspiration.
00:32:20.699 --> 00:32:20.939
Yeah.
00:32:21.099 --> 00:32:22.139
What's the shorthand?
00:32:22.219 --> 00:32:27.179
Like, how do we think about you know, beyond balancing salt and sweet and sour?
00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:40.299
Like, do you have any kind of tips for like thinking about flavor and incorporating flavor, you know, layering flavor, like these kind of ways of using flavor, so it both helps us learn better, but also take our things to another step.
00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:43.339
Yeah, I mean, I think it it's a language, right?
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:59.259
So like you learn it by doing it and by play, and mostly by failure, honestly, and also by trusting yourself, you know, like so often I think uh bakers and food makers get marred down with like, well, what will someone else want to eat?
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:08.539
And it's like if you really want to eat it, there's a chance someone's gonna get on board because you're excited about it, because it'll taste better to you, also, and you'll be able to sustain it longer.
00:33:09.099 --> 00:33:20.779
So uh I think I don't know that there's a shortcut, but I do think that I hope my flavor wheel helps just to start having the language which allows you to sort of enter into that world.
00:33:20.939 --> 00:33:29.259
Uh, but I also heavily relied on a book called The Food Bible, which I feel like used to be like niche, but now like I hope everyone has it.
00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:37.500
Um and there's been many other people who've made like the food encyclopedia or the flavor component matrix or whatever, but I still think the food bible is the best.
00:33:37.899 --> 00:33:45.979
Um and mine is basically tattered, and it's basically, if you don't know, uh alphabetic encyclopedia of flavor pairings.
00:33:46.139 --> 00:33:53.740
And what I love about it is that they really attempted to globally find food pairings, not narrow it down just to our cuisine.
00:33:53.899 --> 00:34:02.779
And so whenever I feel uninspired, I find it really fun to just like flip through there and like almost bounce, like, oh, papaya is good with caramel.
00:34:02.859 --> 00:34:07.500
Well, let's go to caramel, you know, and and build things like that and just kind of dream.
00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:15.900
But I I do think like there's some rules like for pastry, it's like you want to crunch, you want something soft, you want something fluid.
00:34:16.059 --> 00:34:18.300
Like these are things you have to have on a plate.
00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:22.139
But I think rules are just as good to be broken.
00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:26.300
And so the best one is just to like follow and nostalgia is so good.
00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:31.019
Like, remember things you loved as a kid, and then feel free to play.
00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:33.579
Um, and you'll hit on some things you love.
00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:41.980
And you also, I mean, obviously use this global perspective uh in part, it seems like to help orient us around the grains as well as flavors.
00:34:42.059 --> 00:35:00.460
And so just to kind of like walk through the book a little bit, beyond her introduction, she has a chapter that's on the you know, she introduces you to the whole grain, some tools, and then some ingredients, and then really you get into kind of like a breakdown of like Asia, Europe, the Americas, Africa, and then kind of like a Western Asia and North Africa combo.
00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:02.059
Do you have a favorite?
00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:02.940
Oh god.
00:35:03.019 --> 00:35:07.980
Um, I think my favorite sections are probably Europe and Western Asia and North Africa.
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:10.780
So that Mediterranean like crescent.
00:35:11.579 --> 00:35:14.460
Um, I feel like those are the most of the flavors I know growing up.
00:35:14.539 --> 00:35:17.740
They're the flavors I'm certainly steeped in now in my in my family.
00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:19.820
And so they've always stood out to me.
00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:24.059
But I also like when I was in Lebanon, I just like I could not eat enough.
00:35:24.220 --> 00:35:25.340
Everything tasted so good.
00:35:25.579 --> 00:35:26.780
Same thing for Morocco.
00:35:26.860 --> 00:35:28.940
So those have a lot of my favorite recipes in it.
00:35:29.740 --> 00:35:41.019
And if you were talking to somebody and you know encouraging them to kind of expand their world, is there a thicker grain or a part of the world that you would say they start with?
00:35:41.099 --> 00:35:51.099
Like, yeah, so I usually tell people to either start with where they're from because they'll recognize a lot of stuff, or start with where they want to travel to because they'll be most excited about trying that.
00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:57.019
And the book is organized globally, and so in each section is all the grains needed for that area.
00:35:57.099 --> 00:36:01.340
But I'm also trying to teach you that what uh grows together goes together.
00:36:01.420 --> 00:36:33.869
So all the recipes are also paired with all the produce that's native to that area.
00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:48.670
And my hope was to show that that's also a way to figure out flavor pairing is to like look to what cultures have already done and also look to what's in season together, what's growing in the same biosphere, because those things inherently will taste great together.
00:36:48.990 --> 00:36:52.829
Um, so there's many ways I think to come at flavor and it's scaffold.
00:36:52.990 --> 00:37:00.190
So like every chapter starts with cookies and then tarts and then savory things, pastas, some breads, and then a showstopper cake.
00:37:00.269 --> 00:37:05.789
So if you make your way through one, you'll have built all the skills to like knock everything else out of the water.
00:37:06.349 --> 00:37:08.750
So it's been a few years since this was published.
00:37:09.230 --> 00:37:18.670
How did you know writing this book and then like I guess publishing this book now with a little bit of uh perspective, like did has it changed your life in any way?
00:37:18.829 --> 00:37:20.670
Has it changed how you eat or how you cook?
00:37:20.990 --> 00:37:33.630
I feel like because I was trying to uh explain so much, it's not necessarily, I mean, it's all the recipes I make normally, but like I wouldn't, I don't go into my kitchen and I'm like, I'm only gonna cook Asian things today.
00:37:33.710 --> 00:37:36.670
You know, I I let myself enjoy my global pantry.
00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:48.110
Um so my next book that's coming out uh in spring, uh Tiny Cakes with Chronicle, um, is all about handheld treats sweet and savory for everyday and occasions.
00:37:48.349 --> 00:37:56.750
And I think that's a little more reflective of what I do every day, pulling in from that global pantry, like um pulling inspiration.
00:37:57.150 --> 00:38:05.789
I think that also, you know, in this book you'll find a variety of grain usage from 20% to 100 for a lot of recipes.
00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:09.630
In my next book, a lot of it is more around 20 to 30 percent.
00:38:09.869 --> 00:38:31.789
And a lot of that comes from having talked to farmers and millers and really understanding the economies of scale, and that as much as it's amazing that um maybe five of you are like 100% whole grain or death, it's actually more sustainable for our community if all of us in here were like, everything I do is always gonna have 20% whole grain because that's gonna be supportive.
00:38:31.949 --> 00:38:37.789
And so, and I also think that's the kind of key that's like you can plug that in any recipe.
00:38:37.949 --> 00:38:48.269
The your grandmother's recipe that you love, you can plug that in and you don't have to change much because it's it's still low enough that it's not gonna like mess too much with it, but it is gonna be an explosion of flavor.
00:38:48.429 --> 00:39:02.030
So, like, feel free to dig deeper into your history and find out where you're from and find out what grains they likely had, and like get in touch and be able to pull back and literally fold space and time like a freaking wizard, just to bring that back.
00:39:06.590 --> 00:39:08.269
So you have grand ambitions.
00:39:08.429 --> 00:39:16.190
Um, you have a podcast as well, and so you're out there and you're you're on Instagram and you're you're interacting with lots of people.
00:39:16.349 --> 00:39:20.990
Do you have a sense of like what you hope to achieve with your books?
00:39:21.150 --> 00:39:27.150
And also do you feel the ripple of your of your work in the world in a way that excites you at this point?
00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:43.949
I mean, I think everyone wants to be a New York Times bestseller, but I I am always deeply moved, and it means the most to me every day that I'm tagged in something, that someone like makes something or tells me that their book, my book, spoke to them or got them excited about baking.
00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:53.949
Like those personal interactions is like everything, and it's so touching to me because I I understand it's like it's an intimate act to to make food, to eat food.
00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:56.590
Uh, you're spending your money, you could fail.
00:39:56.750 --> 00:40:01.070
Like, there's so much trust, and I I feel so touched to have that.
00:40:01.550 --> 00:40:08.670
And it is farther reaching than I think, you know, even with that grand goal, it's farther reaching than I imagined, you know.
00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:15.230
Like uh events usually turn out halfway between your worst nightmare and your your and your best goal.
00:40:15.389 --> 00:40:17.789
Um I love seeing it out in the world.
00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:21.150
If you guys ever see it out in the world, feel free to turn it face forward.
00:40:21.309 --> 00:40:27.710
And I think it was a way for me to like let go of a lot of information that I had kept inside too.
00:40:27.789 --> 00:40:37.869
So it like freed my mind up to start thinking of like the next chapter, which is what I really love about making books is like sharing food stories, sharing recipes.
00:40:38.030 --> 00:40:44.269
You know, you can put anything up on the internet, but what's great about a cookbook is it's still, for the most part, thoroughly tested, heavily edited.
00:40:44.349 --> 00:40:46.110
So there's there's trust there.
00:40:46.349 --> 00:40:51.150
And with the podcast, you know, again, it's just uh I feel like the same reason you like doing podcasts, right?
00:40:51.230 --> 00:40:55.949
It's great to have the conversation, it's great to learn things and help amplify stories.
00:40:56.110 --> 00:41:02.909
Um I think long term, that's my biggest passion is trying to amplify stories, food just happens to be the medium.
00:41:03.869 --> 00:41:07.230
Other than your own work, like what's your baking Bibles?
00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:10.429
Like, what do you really go to for either inspiration for your own baking?
00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:11.389
I need to close my eyes.
00:41:11.710 --> 00:41:22.269
Yeah, and I and I'm asking this both in sense of your own baking and cooking, but also uh in thinking about creating a book, like you know, where do you look for for models and that kind of thing?
00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:28.110
Yeah, um, I'll always buy a book that my friend is writing, so those immediately become my baking Bibles.
00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:31.869
I have the great advantage of being friends with some really talented bakers as well.
00:41:32.030 --> 00:41:35.949
Sarah Owens is a really close friend of mine, so I have all her books.
00:41:36.269 --> 00:41:55.150
I also um uh Rose Karin, uh, who has Rose Bakery in Paris, was a baking Bible initially for me because it really espoused these like pomier, less sweet, approachable um pastries that I didn't see a lot in this country at the time.
00:41:55.550 --> 00:41:59.389
Um Flavor Flowers, which is out of print now.
00:41:59.469 --> 00:42:01.309
Um I'm forgetting her name.
00:42:01.550 --> 00:42:03.389
Kim Boyce.
00:42:03.949 --> 00:42:05.150
Pretty sure I nailed it.
00:42:05.230 --> 00:42:06.190
Shout out to you, Kim.
00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:07.309
Hello, Kim.
00:42:07.869 --> 00:42:14.429
Um, she wrote that book like back in like the early 2000s, and it was way ahead of its time.
00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:23.150
Um, and it it didn't go quite into whole grains like we'd like today, but it it considered the idea that flavor was flour way before its time.
00:42:23.230 --> 00:42:24.909
So it's such a great book for me.
00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:35.070
I think those are the ones that I really because for when I was learning, when I taught myself how to bake, I approached it the same way I basically had studied in law school.
00:42:35.150 --> 00:42:38.030
So like it I didn't overly rely on one source.
00:42:38.190 --> 00:42:57.230
I would get like 20 books that I thought were the Bible on bread and open them to a recipe that was similar and lay them all out and like make a spreadsheet of what was clearly a rule and what was clearly a suggestion and what was absolutely crazy, and then from there kind of build what I wanted to do.
00:42:57.550 --> 00:42:59.150
Wow, so analytical.
00:43:00.110 --> 00:43:00.429
Amazing.
00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:02.750
So then I couldn't I couldn't really fall in love with one person.
00:43:02.909 --> 00:43:06.750
Although I did really love, I still really love how Peter Reinhardt wrote writes about bread.
00:43:07.150 --> 00:43:17.550
He's like a former monk, so he's very spiritual about it, but not overly more in the magic sense of it all than uh than necessarily dogma.
00:43:17.789 --> 00:43:25.710
And so um, Brother Juniper bread book, I think that was just like something I'd like to read at night that was like, oh, it will be okay.
00:43:25.949 --> 00:43:27.389
Bread could save the world.
00:43:27.710 --> 00:43:28.030
Okay.
00:43:28.190 --> 00:43:29.630
I'll wake up at three.
00:43:32.829 --> 00:43:42.190
Well, we're recording this here at the the needing conference in uh in Skowegan, Maine, uh, brought to us by Main Grains and uh the Main Grain Alliance.
00:43:42.349 --> 00:43:45.869
You I know you've been here before, you've you've you presented workshops here before.
00:43:46.590 --> 00:43:48.590
I did a virtual workshop before it came out.
00:43:48.990 --> 00:43:49.150
Okay.
00:43:49.389 --> 00:43:50.349
Yeah, so this is my first time.
00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:51.550
So what's been in your experience?
00:43:53.550 --> 00:43:53.949
Woo-hoo!
00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:56.349
I uh so I've been I've been coming for a few years.
00:43:56.429 --> 00:44:05.789
I I think this is a great, this is a very unique place to gather uh both the amateur enthusiast for the professional baker, for the miller, for the farmer, everyone comes together and shares.
00:44:05.869 --> 00:44:07.150
It's really a lovely community.
00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:10.510
And like, what's your experience been like here as a first timer?
00:44:10.909 --> 00:44:12.269
Um, it's been really great.
00:44:12.510 --> 00:44:15.150
I taught a workshop earlier today, and now I'm doing this.
00:44:15.230 --> 00:44:20.429
So for the most part, I've been in it rather than around it, I think.
00:44:20.510 --> 00:44:24.269
So I'm really excited tomorrow to like really pop into different things and learn.
00:44:24.429 --> 00:44:44.670
But I've been mostly just blown away with uh the expertise that people are bringing for those that are professionals, and but also the intelligence level of the home bakers and cottage bakers, like the questions they're asking, I think so much faster than like I got there 10 years ago because there's a community, which is so awesome.
00:44:44.829 --> 00:44:57.309
Um, and I think that these gatherings are really important because so many of us are doing this in smaller communities alone, and this lets you know that you're connected to something bigger and you have a network and you can drop in on people.
00:44:57.469 --> 00:45:02.429
I always find that to be the most helpful thing of these kinds of conferences.
00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:08.829
Like my last book tour would not have happened if I hadn't had met so many people who are willing to host me.
00:45:08.909 --> 00:45:14.349
I've already met a couple people here that I'm like, hey, you want me to come around and bring some cakes?
00:45:14.510 --> 00:45:20.269
So I, you know, I think it's it's just wonderful to make new friends that you share a lot of commonality with.
00:45:20.590 --> 00:45:21.630
Yeah, bread friends.
00:45:21.710 --> 00:45:22.190
We all need more.
00:45:22.990 --> 00:45:24.429
We all need more breadfriends.
00:45:24.590 --> 00:45:32.510
Well, I want to thank you for for joining me for this uh inaugural uh uh live recording of this episode.
00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:38.510
And thank you to everyone who decided to kind of join us in the session uh uh with Rose.
00:45:38.670 --> 00:45:43.389
And if people want to learn more about you, listen to your podcast, how do they track you down?
00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:44.750
They can find my podcast.
00:45:44.990 --> 00:45:53.469
It's at Kitchen Tape Pod, anywhere you listen to podcasts, or they can find me on Instagram at PRoseWild or at Redbread.
00:45:53.949 --> 00:45:56.829
Um I also have a substack called Eat More.
00:45:56.990 --> 00:45:57.309
That's it.
00:45:57.389 --> 00:45:59.070
That's the that's all the parts of me I'm gonna find out.
00:45:59.230 --> 00:46:01.550
And your new your next book is expected to come when?
00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:05.070
Uh, I think it's gonna be March, but let's just say early spring.
00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:06.670
Okay, 2027.
00:46:07.150 --> 00:46:07.869
2027.
00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:08.429
Woo! Yeah.
00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:17.789
Uh obviously, if you'd uh if you would like to learn more about Sour House, uh, you can always find us at sourhouse.co or life at Sourhouse.
00:46:17.949 --> 00:46:20.110
And yeah, thanks everybody for joining us.
00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:20.909
Thanks for listening.
00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:03.040
Welcome to Bake This Book.
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:04.400
My name is Eric Fabian.
00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:06.719
I'm a home baker and co-founder of Sour House.
00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:12.720
Today, we're going to talk with cookbook authors, folks who focus on naturally fermented sourdough breads and pastries.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:19.359
We're going to talk about their books, how they were made, the recipes inside, and tips for making your next bake a really great bake.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:20.559
Here we go.
00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:30.960
Bakers, welcome.
00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:40.880
Thank you for joining me today for this very special live recording of Bake This Book, live from Scowhegan at the Needing Conference.
00:00:46.079 --> 00:01:08.079
We gather here today for the pleasure of speaking with Rose Wild, the author of Bread and Roses, 100 Plus Grain Ford Recipes featuring global ingredients and botanicals, published by Countryman Press in 2023 with illustrations by Stacey Michelson and photographs by Rebecca Stunt.
00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:14.400
So Rose, she's a Los Angeles chef, writer, founder of Red Bread, a micro bakery.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.120
You launched in 2011, I believe.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:22.079
Which delivers baked goods originally by bike from my research.
00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:22.799
Yeah.
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:30.159
And then eventually went through farmers markets, and then now is part of pastry and bread programs with Los Angeles restaurants.
00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:42.640
Grew up in Ecuador, trained as an actor, worked as a human rights lawyer before turning to baking, and is also a master gardener, a master food preserver, and the co-host of our own podcast, the Kitchen Tape Podcast.
00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:48.719
So Brennan Roses was named the best book of 2023 by both Los Angeles Times and Bonapet.
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:54.319
It was described as a book of recipes for brown bread or brown flour, I guess, right?
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:54.719
Yes.
00:01:55.599 --> 00:02:00.400
And uh I'm excited to get into this, but first, let me ask you a question.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:24.319
So if you can imagine with me for a second, uh you're at home, somebody has just put in their headphones, and they are about to do some baking, and you're there shoulder to shoulder with them, and you have some of these whole grain flowers that uh you advocate for, how would you help this person learn to taste the flowers better?
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:25.120
Hmm.
00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:38.879
Um, I love this question because for me, flavor is the most important and most like the most winning argument to connect to another person about why you should have whole grains because there is so much flavor.
00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:44.719
But if you haven't tasted them a lot, then a lot of it reads is the same, right?
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We have to build our palate.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:55.759
So I think you have to give yourself some grace if you taste grains and you're like, I don't get it, I'm not tasting it, you know, and and allow yourself to open up.
00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.599
They say we have to taste things like seven times before we know it.
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This is like something parents know because you watch your kid like reject things nonstop.
00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:12.639
So in my book, I developed a flavor wheel to help like guide people to get some of the language because that's pretty empowering to put into.
00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:18.319
And then I have these tests that I didn't develop but have become my go-to.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:21.360
So they're like, when I say I didn't develop them, it's like they're so old.
00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:24.080
They're like the ways we learn bread and apprentice.
00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:36.240
So one of the ways I tell people to taste grain is to mill it and then simply mix it with water to make like a really simple porridge and kind of let it sit for a couple minutes and come back to it.
00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:42.800
And not only will you be able to like taste the grain then, but you're all you'll also get some information about like how much hydration it needs.
00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.199
And this is cold water, yeah, cold water.
00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:51.280
Or or you can just use room tap, like just you're not trying to like hot water is obviously gonna make it loose or cook it.
00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:58.960
So we're really just trying to make like a little porridge so we can taste something, but you're gonna see it either like kind of get tight or it'll stay loose.
00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:03.280
And so that gives you information about how it's gonna act in more complicated baked goods.
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:16.399
And then um, once I kind of know if I want to go pastry or bread with it, um, and what kind of flavors I want to pull out of it, I'll do what I call the shortbread test and make shortbread because shortbread's so easy butter, sugar, flour.
00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:21.519
And that really that fat allows like the rest of the flavor to bloom.
00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:30.560
So I really love exploring whole grains in bread and in pastry because you get such different expressions even from the same grain because of what it's paired with.
00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:37.839
I want to come back to that a little bit further because I I think the taste piece of uh whole grains is always very fascinating.
00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:43.199
But just to kind of ground us also in who you are, you seem to be a very busy woman.
00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.399
And I think in LA, are you a multi-hyphenite, you know, kind of.
00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:47.839
Oh, yeah, that's what they call it.
00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:48.399
Yeah.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:53.279
Um, how does a human rights lawyer become a baker?
00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.920
Well, so I I worked in human rights for several years.
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Um, I worked for an international nonprofit.
00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.519
Um, my particular field of expertise was writing legislation.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:10.000
So I really approached it like I was trying to write a perfect poem.
00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:13.360
The right words had the power to protect someone.
00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:28.639
And I really was assigned to protect uh vulnerable groups, and that generally meant women and children from different areas of countries that we represented, and all of the issues they were facing overlapped with food.
00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:48.160
So, beyond my personal experiences of traveling and encountering as an eater global food systems that had huge variances, I began to see the systems in place that made it more difficult and like unnecessarily so for us to access and maintain nutrition and get food to the people who needed it.
00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.240
And so there was so much overlap.
00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.279
And then this particular profession, lawyers in general, there's extremely high burnout.
00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:58.000
Human rights, especially, has extremely high burnout.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:02.639
I think for obvious reasons, you're reading some really intense stuff, you're working on intense stuff.
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.160
And I had always baked um just for fun.
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:10.480
I learned how to make pies and muffins really young because I said I grew up in Ecuador.
00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:16.319
So when I came back to this country, we moved around a lot, and um my birthday is the first week of school.
00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:26.160
So my mom taught me how to make a cookie and a muffin and a pie, and I would literally hijack class and like make friends because everyone wanted to be friends with the girl who got a cookie.
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:35.600
So it was it was very ingrained on me early on that like a baked good was like the fastest way to make a friend, a cookie was the fastest way to make someone smile.
00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:44.800
So when I was feeling really like I was struggling with mental health from my profession, I kind of took a break and baked.
00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:52.879
And in giving people cookies and these smaller things, um, I found like life coming back to me, truly.
00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:55.199
So baking very much saved me in that way.
00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:00.160
Um, and then I was told not to eat bread, and this was this was in 2011.
00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:06.480
So it was when like any ailment you had, people were like, Stop eating bread, but no one actually could tell you what gluten was.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.000
So it was like the silver bullet that we love in this country.
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:14.959
And so I always like I'm prone to interpreting things as a dare.
00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:16.560
So I was like, okay.
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:26.480
Um, and so I thought, well, we gotta make like the purest form that everyone could agree on is bread, which means globally, what do we agree on is bread?
00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:36.240
Which is when I found out that the United States differs from the rest of the world on not only the definition of bread, but the definition of food, which is incredibly alarming.
00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:38.319
But salt, flour, water.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.519
So I I dove in the sourdough bread.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.199
I made it even before I had it out of the oven, just having my hands in it.
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:47.199
I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life.
00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:48.240
This feels so good.
00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.959
And then when it came out, it came out great.
00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.560
And so I just kept I kept doing it and then kept experimenting.
00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:01.920
And my parents had run a whole grain restaurant when I was young, which I didn't know about until I opened my own, and then they told me.
00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:03.439
Uh, but I had grown up with them.
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:08.000
So it was also, as much as it was forward thinking, it was also just the only thing I knew.
00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:09.839
Uh, and I think that was the transition.
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:13.040
It was really kind of going back into myself.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:13.439
Yeah.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:14.480
I don't think you're alone.
00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:30.480
I mean, I obviously COVID being the big story of people turning to sourdough baking for solace and uh both for the physical contact of it, and uh also I think it's amazing that you kind of figured out so young that baking makes you the most popular person on the clock.
00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.759
So we all have a superpower that I think others can be.
00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.480
Yeah, I utilized it as much as I could growing up.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:42.720
Like if there was a group project and I saw someone was slacking, I was like, well, I guess I'm making a pie to make up for this guy.
00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:47.840
And I was the class president of my law school, pretty sure it's because I made a thousand cupcakes.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:51.200
So it's the secret to life right there.
00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:56.879
Oh so you have named this book Bread and Roses.
00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:03.360
I am sly enough to figure out that partially that is because your name is Rose.
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:07.519
But I also sense there's a few other layers to that name choice.
00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:08.080
Yeah.
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:15.440
One that it evokes a labor history, that idea people should not only survive, but also survive and thrive.
00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:16.399
And thrive, yeah.
00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:16.799
Yeah.
00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:27.120
And you bring up this kind of investigation that happened um on a very personal terms into the food that you were eating and how we understand and define food today.
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:33.120
Now, years past the publication of this book, where are your concerns about the food system today?
00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:34.720
Like, how are you thinking about it?
00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:39.840
And like, where are your concerns when you think about people both surviving and thriving when it comes to food?
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:44.159
Yeah, I I mean, we've had the largest cuts to Snap ever.
00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:53.600
I think they said that like 2.6 billion people can't access good food globally, um, most of whom are children.
00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:01.200
So it's very disheartening that we are deprioritizing the one thing that connects us all.
00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:10.320
And I think when you're young, and certainly this is my experience, I was naive enough to think like we were just not asking the right questions.
00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:12.879
We hadn't done the research, we didn't have a good example.
00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.639
If we could find that, then surely we would mimic it.
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:20.000
And unfortunately, that's not the case, right?
00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:29.200
Because we have some pretty great examples in other countries of food systems, and we can't get our country to mimic them.
00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:40.240
So I think unfortunately it goes beyond food, like to lobbyists and campaign financing that decides like what's in our food, right?
00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:51.840
Like so I said earlier in the UN millennial goals where food is defined, like I'm paraphrasing, but like everyone else in the world signed on to like food comes from the ground.
00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:54.559
It's controversial, right?
00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:55.679
It grows.
00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:04.799
And we wanted it to say that it could also be lab manufactured, it could also be engineered, and that was unacceptable, so we didn't sign it.
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.120
A document that also has goals about like women's right and children's rights.
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.360
So it's like that that was the breaking point for us.
00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:24.320
So I think that is really telling because our industry on food really separated from the rest of the world around World War II because we had this huge machine that wasn't broken.
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:37.120
So we didn't have to go back to the fields, we just switched it on, which is why most of our food that people can't afford is basically war rations, like things that will stay okay for years.
00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:46.159
So, do you think for you, baking bread, a form of solace, form of comfort, is it also a form of protest?
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.159
I think it's a form of revolution, yeah.
00:11:48.320 --> 00:12:00.879
I think it's an active way to remember how food is made, how simply it's made, how it's a birthright for us all to know where our food comes from and how it gets made and the fact that you can.
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:14.480
You know, I think it's so I'm so motivated when people say they're afraid to make something because it's like this was only lost a generation or two ago, and it was something everyone knew and everyone could partake in.
00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:23.200
And I see so much confidence that goes beyond baking from people who learn to do something well, you know?
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:34.080
And I think bread, as much as it feels challenging, is such a great vehicle to enter baking with because it wants to happen, because it's a biological entity you're like engaging with, right?
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:36.240
And I think it's the closest thing to magic.
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:43.039
I think it's like three ingredients, and then you're just like, whoo, eat it, be nourished, you know?
00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:44.480
Like it's amazing.
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:56.320
Yeah, I say the same thing about sourdough and fermentation, because like I feel like we're all these wizards keeping these potions at home and we're transforming unedible things into edible things.
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:59.200
And uh yeah, I I I agree with you there.
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:06.159
And I think it's also fascinating because like, you know, a lot of these foods, particularly, you know, we focus on the conversation around sourdough baking.
00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:15.679
You know, it's a gateway drug into fermentation in general, and then also local food systems and uh places where you're gonna find uh local grains and things like that are celebrating.
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:17.679
It's all part of like the revolution.
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:27.919
Like anytime we can create those small communities, it's so fascinating to me because what what I learned in international development is that you like top-down doesn't work, even though we keep doing that.
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:34.559
You're supposed to create these small, strong hubs that link up, and then you have a sustainable community.
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:44.159
And that's exactly what I think we're doing here at Maine Grain Alliance in in the conference, and also all the bakers and millers and farmers in their individual places.
00:13:44.320 --> 00:14:03.440
Like so, all that bad news, but like the other side is I think there's a lot to be celebrated because so many more people know what full grain means, what sourdough means, so many more people are interested in milling again and baking again, and these things that we were told all the machines would have taken from us already.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:06.399
Which you know is I think also hope for the future, you know.
00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:22.639
Like, yeah, and I think this on this hopeful note, this other interpretation of the title of your book, where it's bread and roses, referring to kind of the botanics and the kind of the rest of the garbage that might end up in your bread and pastry and other sorts of things.
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:23.039
Yeah.
00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:58.539
So I wonder if you could also talk about like let's let's kind of maybe transition a little bit into like that perspective on writing this book and how you bake.
00:14:58.700 --> 00:15:03.100
Like I do some poragine, I do you know, some urgent urban porridge and stuff.
00:15:03.180 --> 00:15:14.460
I have a little bit of a vocabulary that I do play with herbs and stuff, but I'm not that familiar with a lot of the kind of like ornamental flowers and where they overlap with edible flowers.
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:16.379
And and I have some interest of it.
00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:18.139
Yeah, I'm a little bit of a kitchen witch.
00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:23.980
Um where do people find these ingredients and source them and how do they use them safely?
00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:30.539
I think that's a great question because I feel like there's been an explosion of interest in more botanical baking.
00:15:30.779 --> 00:15:48.379
I hope it gets deeper into using it more for flavor, which is what my book champions, but certainly people have caught on to the decorating with it, and I often see cakes or things being decorated with things that are toxic or just like have a sap that's just gonna taste nasty.
00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:51.100
So I think it's another area you have to learn.
00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:52.379
And there's no cheat sheet.
00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:54.220
Like, so you have to be really interested.
00:15:54.379 --> 00:15:56.700
That's part of the reason why I became a master gardener.
00:15:56.779 --> 00:16:04.300
I also really enjoyed gardening, but I really wanted to know a lot about plants, um, which is how I realized vegetables are a lie.
00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:08.700
It is a social construct when you eat that during a meal.
00:16:08.860 --> 00:16:13.740
Otherwise, it is just root, stems, leaves, fruit, and blossoms.
00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:18.460
And so that really changed my perspective of like I'm just using parts of a plant.
00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:25.580
And that's how I pulled out my um philosophy for botanicals of cooking root to blossom, which is a play on nose to tail.
00:16:25.820 --> 00:16:31.419
I haven't figured out the joke of everything but the squeal, like what's the equivalent for the flower?
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:33.019
Um the flower screen.
00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:35.419
Or the vegetable dark.
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:51.580
Um, but that really opened me up, and so I use I use a lot of leaves, like I use fig leaves, has been become popular, but peach leaves and other stone fruit leaves have an almond flavor, avocado leaves taste like aniseed, it's beautiful infused into things.
00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:55.340
I love charring lemon leaves and grinding them down into sugar.
00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:57.180
It tastes like fruit loops.
00:16:57.820 --> 00:17:01.259
And then I think we forget also that everything flowers.
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:06.379
So, like your chive flower, your thyme flower is taste of the plant.
00:17:06.539 --> 00:17:07.899
It's just another shade.
00:17:08.139 --> 00:17:23.579
And then because I've traveled so much, I've seen so many of these flowers and leaves and other parts of the plants being used in a way that just makes it very clear that like a lot of what we think is usable on plants is because we're steeped in waste culture.
00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:27.579
You know, and we have some of it where we're like, oh, we'll save that for stock.
00:17:27.740 --> 00:17:32.939
But like you could also use so many things immediately that we think are trash.
00:17:33.179 --> 00:17:39.099
Um, and other cultures don't do that because they don't have the illusion of abundance and the economic advantage that we have.
00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:43.740
And so I really look to like global definitions of how we use food.
00:17:43.899 --> 00:17:55.339
That's also how I navigate definitions of what's toxic and edible, like because it's food has long been one of the core soft powers uh of this nation, of most nations.
00:17:55.579 --> 00:18:02.219
So othering certain ingredients and giving them a damaging story was also a way to oppress people, right?
00:18:02.299 --> 00:18:18.619
I think the one most people know is like MSG, which was a way to make Asian, particularly Chinese people targets during the 80s and 90s, even though it's a Japanese invention and it comes from kelp, so from seaweed, so it couldn't be more natural.
00:18:18.859 --> 00:18:27.179
There's also this thing called the tanka bean, which is this beautiful bean that tastes like an almond and a vanilla bean had a baby and it's magical.
00:18:27.339 --> 00:18:33.339
It's still technically illegal in this country because it was useful to make Latin American people a target.
00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:48.059
So it's really useful to do searches beyond the United States USDA's definition of what's safe because a lot of that is politically coded, even if though we don't might not know it.
00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:50.059
So yeah, that's how I navigate a lot of that.
00:18:50.699 --> 00:18:52.059
I just want to learn from other cultures.
00:18:52.379 --> 00:18:54.459
Yeah, and I agree with you in that words matter.
00:18:54.539 --> 00:19:00.139
I I get really upset with the you know the notion of weeds and kind of it's just the flower you haven't made a friend with yet.
00:19:00.379 --> 00:19:06.459
Yeah, and if you know, I I will go to blows if you disagree that a dandelion is not a pretty little flower, you know.
00:19:06.779 --> 00:19:22.219
But uh also so many other cultures like make festivals and seasons out of going to the mountains for this one week when things flower, you know, like and I think in much like whole grains and like good food, it's starting to become a luxury item in this country.
00:19:22.299 --> 00:19:24.779
And it's like, where do you see edible flowers on a menu?
00:19:24.939 --> 00:19:26.219
11th Madison Park.
00:19:26.379 --> 00:19:30.539
But if you go anywhere else, it's in that Nona's house and she cooked it for you.
00:19:30.699 --> 00:19:53.019
So yeah, and I I want to return to some of the techniques that you referenced, but it seems like the thing that connects the dots for me on your story so far, both from the kind of political point of view you're sharing as well as the baking strategies and taste point of view, it all comes back to travel and like your like lifelong experience in other countries and exposing stuff.
00:19:53.339 --> 00:19:59.500
Not everybody has the opportunity to kind of travel like you do and develop that pantry and that kind of palette in that way.
00:19:59.659 --> 00:20:06.219
And I and it's I think what's cool in this book, which is it's a deceivingly dense book if you haven't looked at it.
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:08.619
It's like it covers a lot of basics of things.
00:20:08.699 --> 00:20:14.299
There's a lot of recipes, but there's sections on tasting, on sourcing, on different types of plants and foraging.
00:20:14.459 --> 00:20:22.619
So I think this is I I kind of see this as your shortcut into for the rest of us to try to have live the grand life of exploration you have.
00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:35.819
But could you talk a little bit more about like how your traveling experience throughout your life at different ages kind of like led you to this strategy of like thinking about food and thinking about flavors?
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:54.539
Yeah, well, I think the because of that, that actually is why I uh and combined with COVID when I first started writing this when I sold it, is why I organized the book globally, because it was the easiest way for me to think to to give such a vast amount of information that I thought I had collected through my travels and research.
00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:58.219
So I was born in Florida, but I grew up in Ecuador.
00:20:58.379 --> 00:21:04.459
Um, and so the grains that I mostly experience day to day was primarily quinoa and amaranth.
00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:08.299
And I just assumed that was what everyone was eating, because that's what everyone was eating there.
00:21:08.459 --> 00:21:11.579
Um, and I, you know, you don't ask those kinds of questions.
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:16.779
And then when I came back to the States, obviously I took quinoa pudding to school, and that was witch food.
00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:21.659
So I learned very quickly like there was something different about the way I ate versus the way other people ate.
00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:24.779
No one wanted to give me their snack pack for my quinoa pudding.
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:28.859
And then uh I don't come from a wealthy background.
00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:40.859
My ability to travel has come literally from writing essays and going after grants or offering to work study a trip and lead something because I have to have been there before I speak the language.
00:21:41.179 --> 00:22:02.539
I had the opportunity while I was in college to study in Spain and Italy and France and kind of saw those food systems which are very close and still very different, and like obviously I was eating all the carbs possible in all these places, which also like helped inform me when I was suddenly told that I couldn't have bread anymore.
00:22:02.699 --> 00:22:05.740
I was like, I don't even eat it in this country because it's gross.
00:22:05.899 --> 00:22:10.939
It doesn't taste like anything, but I definitely eat it everywhere else, and I'm having these problems here.
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:23.579
So I feel like it lent me an analysis to food that, as you say, if you haven't experienced a different set of food norms, it can be different, it can you can't know what you don't know.
00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:26.459
And then it had My life's goal to go to Tibet.
00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:33.979
So I went to Tibet after college for a year and like helped build an orphanage and worked with a lot of women there and cooked there.
00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:41.259
And that's actually where I thought of the porridge test because two to three meals a day is roasted barley flour.
00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:42.139
It's the stampa.
00:22:42.619 --> 00:22:42.939
Stampa.
00:22:43.099 --> 00:22:43.819
Yeah, you gotta do that.
00:22:44.139 --> 00:22:44.379
I saw that.
00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:47.659
Yeah, which I also put on my menu at my um bakery.
00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:48.059
Uh-huh.
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:49.979
Can you do you think it was a huge hit?
00:22:51.740 --> 00:23:00.859
Um, it's one of those things where it's like you start eating and you're like, wow, this is intense, and then suddenly it's like something you deeply, deeply crave because it's so nourishing and complex.
00:23:00.939 --> 00:23:05.579
But when you first start eating it, it just kind of blows you out because it's not something you know in your palate.
00:23:05.899 --> 00:23:09.740
In the book, I believe I have it with like yogurt, honey, and roasted kumquats.
00:23:10.139 --> 00:23:14.219
We used to serve with all kinds of different toppings, but it was, it was, it's so simple.
00:23:14.379 --> 00:23:19.259
You know, you water and toasted barley and let it sit and then you eat it.
00:23:19.419 --> 00:23:22.859
And if you're gonna be hiking, you make it stiffer into balls.
00:23:23.019 --> 00:23:26.139
So I was like, this is a really great way to try flour.
00:23:26.219 --> 00:23:30.219
So I feel like I've always I was always like filing little things away.
00:23:30.379 --> 00:23:40.059
And then uh I briefly worked for the State Department, so I got to experience and was stationed in Greece, so I got to experience like Moroccan food and Greek food and North African food.
00:23:40.139 --> 00:23:47.659
And and I I don't think I realized I was actively comparing and contrasting, but I think that's just how I'm wired.
00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:52.139
And so when I sat down, it was how I pulled from everything.
00:23:52.379 --> 00:24:12.779
But I do think that because we live in an age where we have these little boxes in our hands that are gateways to all of human knowledge, like you can just ask some good questions, and you can not only ask some good questions and find some good answers on the internet, but there are communities where you can tap into the people from that culture and ask them questions.
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:17.579
So there's ways to engage without necessarily traveling.
00:24:17.899 --> 00:24:31.579
You also uh mentioned in your introduction about how food connects people, like obviously bringing cupcakes and stuff, the school is part of that, but also how like large family parties encouraged you to learn to cook economically.
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:34.219
And then you obviously saw a variety of grains around the world.
00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:38.459
You make this observation that most babies' first foods are grains and yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:38.619 --> 00:24:41.019
Everyone, every baby is like bread or porridge.
00:24:41.259 --> 00:24:43.740
Yeah, and so were you from a large family?
00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:48.779
Did you encounter like large families through your home stays and stuff and places or like how did that fit in?
00:24:49.339 --> 00:24:55.099
So I'm one of three, but my larger Hispanic family, I mean, I have 60 cousins.
00:24:55.659 --> 00:24:57.339
So like there's a lot of us.
00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:02.219
My mom is one of six, so we're kind of the smallest generation, I guess.
00:25:02.459 --> 00:25:07.500
And also in Ecuador, like you come home for lunch and it's like a two-hour fair, and then you go back to school.
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:12.699
So it's very meal-centered, and then breakfast and dinner would be like a sweet bun and hot chocolate.
00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:24.139
Like, so bread is very centered too, and a lot of that is because it's it's accessible if you don't have a lot of money, you know, and it's nourishing, like whole grains, like so much protein.
00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:33.740
So I really love these big meals, and we were always drafted to help our aunts and uncles, and I was always trying to figure out how to do less dishes.
00:25:33.899 --> 00:25:38.859
That was my primary motivation, which is how I like streamlined a lot of things.
00:25:38.939 --> 00:25:42.299
Um, I'm also just a big proponent of working smarter, not harder.
00:25:42.459 --> 00:25:49.259
And now I've married into an Iranian Jewish family, and so like that's massive family.
00:25:49.659 --> 00:25:56.779
We were, well, we haven't actually officially had our wedding, but I was told it could be small, but for him that meant 250 people.
00:25:56.939 --> 00:25:58.699
So we just need to talk a little more.
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:00.779
I was thinking 30.
00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:07.979
But yeah, so I feel like I'm constantly drawn to these cultures of generosity and lots of people.
00:26:08.059 --> 00:26:19.740
And I think this was bigger and a lot more cultures, and we've kind of built up systems that have separated us and again deprioritized food so that more and more people I think are eating like dirty line cooks, like over the trash can.
00:26:19.979 --> 00:26:21.979
Yeah, it's interesting or in the alley.
00:26:23.419 --> 00:26:27.500
I first of all just want to say I'm sad for all those cousins that aren't gonna make it to your wedding.
00:26:29.419 --> 00:26:39.659
But also, uh, it's interesting to me that we are gathered here to like talk about bread and grain and foods, and like this is a fancy kind of luxury experience, I think, for a lot of us.
00:26:39.819 --> 00:26:55.179
But it's strange that it's both how bread is right now has become this like affluent sort of a status symbol thing, but it's also the most basic of foods, and it's most it is the most economic of foods, and those things are kind of disconnected right now.
00:26:55.419 --> 00:27:06.139
And I think it's a shame when I start to hear people talk about bread as somehow inaccessible or too elite or something because of the positioning it has today.
00:27:06.299 --> 00:27:06.459
Yeah.
00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:09.979
Um because it really is, I think, something for everybody in some form.
00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:14.059
So, and towards that, like let's talk about some skills and some and stuff like that.
00:27:14.139 --> 00:27:19.019
Uh, you know, as a sourdough podcast, I have to ask, you mentioned sourdough throughout your book.
00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:24.619
I wonder not just with bread, but with pastry, like, where does sourdough shine?
00:27:24.699 --> 00:27:30.379
Like, when is that a move that really when you're making a recipe where you're like, I need to bring a little sourdough into this?
00:27:30.459 --> 00:27:33.899
Are you always looking for that opportunity because of health reasons or whatever?
00:27:34.059 --> 00:27:36.059
Or do you think it's like a flavor strategy?
00:27:36.379 --> 00:27:44.299
I I mean, I like to use it definitely as a flavor strategy because it it's got a nice like grassy tang to it, you know, when it's active and happy.
00:27:44.379 --> 00:27:47.579
And so, like, that can be a nice element to balance sugar.
00:27:47.819 --> 00:28:00.219
Um, but also I I think that put it everywhere and anywhere because baking powder and baking soda are the great American contribution to baking, and they're relatively new, like 100 years, maybe a little more.
00:28:00.459 --> 00:28:04.939
And before that, all cakes were leavened with sourdough, all cookies were leavened with sourdough.
00:28:05.179 --> 00:28:09.979
So, like, I think that there is the opportunity for it to be everywhere.
00:28:10.139 --> 00:28:13.500
And if you like the flavor, then it's in your arsenal.
00:28:13.819 --> 00:28:17.579
I also love to put it in things that I inherently know are gonna sit.
00:28:17.659 --> 00:28:31.579
So I do love to throw it in a lot of cookies because they're like sort of curing all their flavors together, and I think they um I'm like, well, there's already sit happening there, so let's see if we can get some fermentation out of it also, and just make this more digestible, sure.
00:28:31.659 --> 00:28:36.299
But it also unlocks more flavor, so it's like we're we're just giving it like a supercharge.
00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:44.139
So I'll throw it in my pie dough, all my pie doughs have a little sourdough in it, all my cookies have a little sourdough in it.
00:28:44.299 --> 00:28:49.819
I'm not generally relying on those as the only leavening, but I like to add it.
00:28:49.899 --> 00:28:55.899
And then when I make bread, um, even though my book offers you yeast, hybrid, and sourdough, it's always sourdough.
00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:12.219
Going back to some of your comments about using botanicals in different creations, uh I feel like there's in addition to kind of decorative moves, there's a lot of different ways that those flavors can get incorporated into a bread or a pastry.
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:18.379
If I had to pick one, I'm guessing infusion is kind of a grand strategy that works with a lot of stuff.
00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:24.379
But if you were to just give people one or two moves to kind of like, you know, how what would you suggest are there ways to have a cup?
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:27.659
Um suspending things in oil is an excellent way.
00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:35.019
Uh, you know, I I um blanch and blend all those leaves I mentioned before into grapeseed oil.
00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:43.419
And then I have for um dropping into testers, dropping into buttercreams, using as the oil for a cake, and it's fully infused.
00:29:43.899 --> 00:29:51.500
Or you can double it up in savory and make a vinaigrette or beautiful agua chili, like they become just something you can use in your kitchen.
00:29:51.659 --> 00:29:53.819
So oil infusions are really beautiful.
00:29:53.979 --> 00:29:58.619
It's gonna be a lot of fats, you know, and so like cream is a great way to infuse a lot of flavor.
00:29:58.939 --> 00:30:05.819
Dehydrating it overnight or in your oven, or if you have a dehydrator and powdering it gives you the ability to really measure it out.
00:30:05.899 --> 00:30:09.099
So you're basically creating a ground spice for yourself.
00:30:09.179 --> 00:30:17.659
Um, that's another way I use a lot, or I'll do that, but grind it with sugar to create a sugar because that's another big base of a lot of pastry.
00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:22.939
So that's like a really stable way that's going to absorb those oils, but then I can use it in a recipe.
00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:28.779
So it's really about building some of my bases rather than like, oh, how do I get it into this recipe?
00:30:28.939 --> 00:30:33.500
It's like, what becomes the base that I can pull from, then to activate that.
00:30:33.659 --> 00:30:38.379
I also dry a lot of things and treat it like tea, so it's also an infusion, but into water.
00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:41.339
Yeah, I think those are my immediate go-to's.
00:30:41.659 --> 00:30:42.779
Yeah, I I forget.
00:30:42.939 --> 00:30:50.699
I just like forget to how easy some of that stuff is and you know, to pull out and to kind of add a lot of flavor to to breads and different things.
00:30:50.779 --> 00:31:00.139
And uh, and then I always have ambitions to ferment more and to like make more little jams and jellies and thingies, you know, and like and have that around.
00:31:00.219 --> 00:31:08.619
And you have a lot of some of that stuff in your book that I think a lot of ferments and yeah, jams little moves like that I think are are great for having to layer into things.
00:31:08.779 --> 00:31:12.859
You know what's a cool one I recently learned though is like um doing it with ice.
00:31:13.179 --> 00:31:15.099
And I think it's the bartender's trick.
00:31:15.179 --> 00:31:15.419
Uh-huh.
00:31:15.579 --> 00:31:25.099
So I'll like pack and grind and blend herbs into ice and then freeze that into like a big so it's like a big puck, uh-huh.
00:31:25.259 --> 00:31:29.419
And then you put that over a sieve with um a cheesecloth and let it melt.
00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:34.299
And the first water that melts is like crazy infused with flavor.
00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:34.779
Really?
00:31:34.939 --> 00:31:43.099
So this works with like fruit too, and that's how they get those like that's how you can have a cocktail and it's like one sip, and you're like, wow, how does that taste so much like mango?
00:31:43.179 --> 00:31:47.419
It's like they're freezing the mango juice and then letting it melt.
00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:50.619
And the first part that falls has the most volatile flavors.
00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:51.019
Wow.
00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:52.539
That's uh oh, that's interesting.
00:31:52.699 --> 00:31:53.740
Yeah, it's very cool.
00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:56.139
I just learned it, so now you guys know it too.
00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:03.019
And then I wouldn't say that I have the most precise of palettes.
00:32:03.179 --> 00:32:13.740
Like my mom is like one of those people that's kind of more of a super taster and she can pick out everything, and like, but you you introduce like you know, a food wheel and kind of like a tasting chart kind of thing.
00:32:13.819 --> 00:32:18.299
So making the tasting of bread and and pastry more like wine.
00:32:18.459 --> 00:32:18.619
Yeah.
00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:20.459
And um that was the inspiration.
00:32:20.699 --> 00:32:20.939
Yeah.
00:32:21.099 --> 00:32:22.139
What's the shorthand?
00:32:22.219 --> 00:32:27.179
Like, how do we think about you know, beyond balancing salt and sweet and sour?
00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:40.299
Like, do you have any kind of tips for like thinking about flavor and incorporating flavor, you know, layering flavor, like these kind of ways of using flavor, so it both helps us learn better, but also take our things to another step.
00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:43.339
Yeah, I mean, I think it it's a language, right?
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:59.259
So like you learn it by doing it and by play, and mostly by failure, honestly, and also by trusting yourself, you know, like so often I think uh bakers and food makers get marred down with like, well, what will someone else want to eat?
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:08.539
And it's like if you really want to eat it, there's a chance someone's gonna get on board because you're excited about it, because it'll taste better to you, also, and you'll be able to sustain it longer.
00:33:09.099 --> 00:33:20.779
So uh I think I don't know that there's a shortcut, but I do think that I hope my flavor wheel helps just to start having the language which allows you to sort of enter into that world.
00:33:20.939 --> 00:33:29.259
Uh, but I also heavily relied on a book called The Food Bible, which I feel like used to be like niche, but now like I hope everyone has it.
00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:37.500
Um and there's been many other people who've made like the food encyclopedia or the flavor component matrix or whatever, but I still think the food bible is the best.
00:33:37.899 --> 00:33:45.979
Um and mine is basically tattered, and it's basically, if you don't know, uh alphabetic encyclopedia of flavor pairings.
00:33:46.139 --> 00:33:53.740
And what I love about it is that they really attempted to globally find food pairings, not narrow it down just to our cuisine.
00:33:53.899 --> 00:34:02.779
And so whenever I feel uninspired, I find it really fun to just like flip through there and like almost bounce, like, oh, papaya is good with caramel.
00:34:02.859 --> 00:34:07.500
Well, let's go to caramel, you know, and and build things like that and just kind of dream.
00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:15.900
But I I do think like there's some rules like for pastry, it's like you want to crunch, you want something soft, you want something fluid.
00:34:16.059 --> 00:34:18.300
Like these are things you have to have on a plate.
00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:22.139
But I think rules are just as good to be broken.
00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:26.300
And so the best one is just to like follow and nostalgia is so good.
00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:31.019
Like, remember things you loved as a kid, and then feel free to play.
00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:33.579
Um, and you'll hit on some things you love.
00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:41.980
And you also, I mean, obviously use this global perspective uh in part, it seems like to help orient us around the grains as well as flavors.
00:34:42.059 --> 00:35:00.460
And so just to kind of like walk through the book a little bit, beyond her introduction, she has a chapter that's on the you know, she introduces you to the whole grain, some tools, and then some ingredients, and then really you get into kind of like a breakdown of like Asia, Europe, the Americas, Africa, and then kind of like a Western Asia and North Africa combo.
00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:02.059
Do you have a favorite?
00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:02.940
Oh god.
00:35:03.019 --> 00:35:07.980
Um, I think my favorite sections are probably Europe and Western Asia and North Africa.
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:10.780
So that Mediterranean like crescent.
00:35:11.579 --> 00:35:14.460
Um, I feel like those are the most of the flavors I know growing up.
00:35:14.539 --> 00:35:17.740
They're the flavors I'm certainly steeped in now in my in my family.
00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:19.820
And so they've always stood out to me.
00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:24.059
But I also like when I was in Lebanon, I just like I could not eat enough.
00:35:24.220 --> 00:35:25.340
Everything tasted so good.
00:35:25.579 --> 00:35:26.780
Same thing for Morocco.
00:35:26.860 --> 00:35:28.940
So those have a lot of my favorite recipes in it.
00:35:29.740 --> 00:35:41.019
And if you were talking to somebody and you know encouraging them to kind of expand their world, is there a thicker grain or a part of the world that you would say they start with?
00:35:41.099 --> 00:35:51.099
Like, yeah, so I usually tell people to either start with where they're from because they'll recognize a lot of stuff, or start with where they want to travel to because they'll be most excited about trying that.
00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:57.019
And the book is organized globally, and so in each section is all the grains needed for that area.
00:35:57.099 --> 00:36:01.340
But I'm also trying to teach you that what uh grows together goes together.
00:36:01.420 --> 00:36:33.869
So all the recipes are also paired with all the produce that's native to that area.
00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:48.670
And my hope was to show that that's also a way to figure out flavor pairing is to like look to what cultures have already done and also look to what's in season together, what's growing in the same biosphere, because those things inherently will taste great together.
00:36:48.990 --> 00:36:52.829
Um, so there's many ways I think to come at flavor and it's scaffold.
00:36:52.990 --> 00:37:00.190
So like every chapter starts with cookies and then tarts and then savory things, pastas, some breads, and then a showstopper cake.
00:37:00.269 --> 00:37:05.789
So if you make your way through one, you'll have built all the skills to like knock everything else out of the water.
00:37:06.349 --> 00:37:08.750
So it's been a few years since this was published.
00:37:09.230 --> 00:37:18.670
How did you know writing this book and then like I guess publishing this book now with a little bit of uh perspective, like did has it changed your life in any way?
00:37:18.829 --> 00:37:20.670
Has it changed how you eat or how you cook?
00:37:20.990 --> 00:37:33.630
I feel like because I was trying to uh explain so much, it's not necessarily, I mean, it's all the recipes I make normally, but like I wouldn't, I don't go into my kitchen and I'm like, I'm only gonna cook Asian things today.
00:37:33.710 --> 00:37:36.670
You know, I I let myself enjoy my global pantry.
00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:48.110
Um so my next book that's coming out uh in spring, uh Tiny Cakes with Chronicle, um, is all about handheld treats sweet and savory for everyday and occasions.
00:37:48.349 --> 00:37:56.750
And I think that's a little more reflective of what I do every day, pulling in from that global pantry, like um pulling inspiration.
00:37:57.150 --> 00:38:05.789
I think that also, you know, in this book you'll find a variety of grain usage from 20% to 100 for a lot of recipes.
00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:09.630
In my next book, a lot of it is more around 20 to 30 percent.
00:38:09.869 --> 00:38:31.789
And a lot of that comes from having talked to farmers and millers and really understanding the economies of scale, and that as much as it's amazing that um maybe five of you are like 100% whole grain or death, it's actually more sustainable for our community if all of us in here were like, everything I do is always gonna have 20% whole grain because that's gonna be supportive.
00:38:31.949 --> 00:38:37.789
And so, and I also think that's the kind of key that's like you can plug that in any recipe.
00:38:37.949 --> 00:38:48.269
The your grandmother's recipe that you love, you can plug that in and you don't have to change much because it's it's still low enough that it's not gonna like mess too much with it, but it is gonna be an explosion of flavor.
00:38:48.429 --> 00:39:02.030
So, like, feel free to dig deeper into your history and find out where you're from and find out what grains they likely had, and like get in touch and be able to pull back and literally fold space and time like a freaking wizard, just to bring that back.
00:39:06.590 --> 00:39:08.269
So you have grand ambitions.
00:39:08.429 --> 00:39:16.190
Um, you have a podcast as well, and so you're out there and you're you're on Instagram and you're you're interacting with lots of people.
00:39:16.349 --> 00:39:20.990
Do you have a sense of like what you hope to achieve with your books?
00:39:21.150 --> 00:39:27.150
And also do you feel the ripple of your of your work in the world in a way that excites you at this point?
00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:43.949
I mean, I think everyone wants to be a New York Times bestseller, but I I am always deeply moved, and it means the most to me every day that I'm tagged in something, that someone like makes something or tells me that their book, my book, spoke to them or got them excited about baking.
00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:53.949
Like those personal interactions is like everything, and it's so touching to me because I I understand it's like it's an intimate act to to make food, to eat food.
00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:56.590
Uh, you're spending your money, you could fail.
00:39:56.750 --> 00:40:01.070
Like, there's so much trust, and I I feel so touched to have that.
00:40:01.550 --> 00:40:08.670
And it is farther reaching than I think, you know, even with that grand goal, it's farther reaching than I imagined, you know.
00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:15.230
Like uh events usually turn out halfway between your worst nightmare and your your and your best goal.
00:40:15.389 --> 00:40:17.789
Um I love seeing it out in the world.
00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:21.150
If you guys ever see it out in the world, feel free to turn it face forward.
00:40:21.309 --> 00:40:27.710
And I think it was a way for me to like let go of a lot of information that I had kept inside too.
00:40:27.789 --> 00:40:37.869
So it like freed my mind up to start thinking of like the next chapter, which is what I really love about making books is like sharing food stories, sharing recipes.
00:40:38.030 --> 00:40:44.269
You know, you can put anything up on the internet, but what's great about a cookbook is it's still, for the most part, thoroughly tested, heavily edited.
00:40:44.349 --> 00:40:46.110
So there's there's trust there.
00:40:46.349 --> 00:40:51.150
And with the podcast, you know, again, it's just uh I feel like the same reason you like doing podcasts, right?
00:40:51.230 --> 00:40:55.949
It's great to have the conversation, it's great to learn things and help amplify stories.
00:40:56.110 --> 00:41:02.909
Um I think long term, that's my biggest passion is trying to amplify stories, food just happens to be the medium.
00:41:03.869 --> 00:41:07.230
Other than your own work, like what's your baking Bibles?
00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:10.429
Like, what do you really go to for either inspiration for your own baking?
00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:11.389
I need to close my eyes.
00:41:11.710 --> 00:41:22.269
Yeah, and I and I'm asking this both in sense of your own baking and cooking, but also uh in thinking about creating a book, like you know, where do you look for for models and that kind of thing?
00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:28.110
Yeah, um, I'll always buy a book that my friend is writing, so those immediately become my baking Bibles.
00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:31.869
I have the great advantage of being friends with some really talented bakers as well.
00:41:32.030 --> 00:41:35.949
Sarah Owens is a really close friend of mine, so I have all her books.
00:41:36.269 --> 00:41:55.150
I also um uh Rose Karin, uh, who has Rose Bakery in Paris, was a baking Bible initially for me because it really espoused these like pomier, less sweet, approachable um pastries that I didn't see a lot in this country at the time.
00:41:55.550 --> 00:41:59.389
Um Flavor Flowers, which is out of print now.
00:41:59.469 --> 00:42:01.309
Um I'm forgetting her name.
00:42:01.550 --> 00:42:03.389
Kim Boyce.
00:42:03.949 --> 00:42:05.150
Pretty sure I nailed it.
00:42:05.230 --> 00:42:06.190
Shout out to you, Kim.
00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:07.309
Hello, Kim.
00:42:07.869 --> 00:42:14.429
Um, she wrote that book like back in like the early 2000s, and it was way ahead of its time.
00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:23.150
Um, and it it didn't go quite into whole grains like we'd like today, but it it considered the idea that flavor was flour way before its time.
00:42:23.230 --> 00:42:24.909
So it's such a great book for me.
00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:35.070
I think those are the ones that I really because for when I was learning, when I taught myself how to bake, I approached it the same way I basically had studied in law school.
00:42:35.150 --> 00:42:38.030
So like it I didn't overly rely on one source.
00:42:38.190 --> 00:42:57.230
I would get like 20 books that I thought were the Bible on bread and open them to a recipe that was similar and lay them all out and like make a spreadsheet of what was clearly a rule and what was clearly a suggestion and what was absolutely crazy, and then from there kind of build what I wanted to do.
00:42:57.550 --> 00:42:59.150
Wow, so analytical.
00:43:00.110 --> 00:43:00.429
Amazing.
00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:02.750
So then I couldn't I couldn't really fall in love with one person.
00:43:02.909 --> 00:43:06.750
Although I did really love, I still really love how Peter Reinhardt wrote writes about bread.
00:43:07.150 --> 00:43:17.550
He's like a former monk, so he's very spiritual about it, but not overly more in the magic sense of it all than uh than necessarily dogma.
00:43:17.789 --> 00:43:25.710
And so um, Brother Juniper bread book, I think that was just like something I'd like to read at night that was like, oh, it will be okay.
00:43:25.949 --> 00:43:27.389
Bread could save the world.
00:43:27.710 --> 00:43:28.030
Okay.
00:43:28.190 --> 00:43:29.630
I'll wake up at three.
00:43:32.829 --> 00:43:42.190
Well, we're recording this here at the the needing conference in uh in Skowegan, Maine, uh, brought to us by Main Grains and uh the Main Grain Alliance.
00:43:42.349 --> 00:43:45.869
You I know you've been here before, you've you've you presented workshops here before.
00:43:46.590 --> 00:43:48.590
I did a virtual workshop before it came out.
00:43:48.990 --> 00:43:49.150
Okay.
00:43:49.389 --> 00:43:50.349
Yeah, so this is my first time.
00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:51.550
So what's been in your experience?
00:43:53.550 --> 00:43:53.949
Woo-hoo!
00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:56.349
I uh so I've been I've been coming for a few years.
00:43:56.429 --> 00:44:05.789
I I think this is a great, this is a very unique place to gather uh both the amateur enthusiast for the professional baker, for the miller, for the farmer, everyone comes together and shares.
00:44:05.869 --> 00:44:07.150
It's really a lovely community.
00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:10.510
And like, what's your experience been like here as a first timer?
00:44:10.909 --> 00:44:12.269
Um, it's been really great.
00:44:12.510 --> 00:44:15.150
I taught a workshop earlier today, and now I'm doing this.
00:44:15.230 --> 00:44:20.429
So for the most part, I've been in it rather than around it, I think.
00:44:20.510 --> 00:44:24.269
So I'm really excited tomorrow to like really pop into different things and learn.
00:44:24.429 --> 00:44:44.670
But I've been mostly just blown away with uh the expertise that people are bringing for those that are professionals, and but also the intelligence level of the home bakers and cottage bakers, like the questions they're asking, I think so much faster than like I got there 10 years ago because there's a community, which is so awesome.
00:44:44.829 --> 00:44:57.309
Um, and I think that these gatherings are really important because so many of us are doing this in smaller communities alone, and this lets you know that you're connected to something bigger and you have a network and you can drop in on people.
00:44:57.469 --> 00:45:02.429
I always find that to be the most helpful thing of these kinds of conferences.
00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:08.829
Like my last book tour would not have happened if I hadn't had met so many people who are willing to host me.
00:45:08.909 --> 00:45:14.349
I've already met a couple people here that I'm like, hey, you want me to come around and bring some cakes?
00:45:14.510 --> 00:45:20.269
So I, you know, I think it's it's just wonderful to make new friends that you share a lot of commonality with.
00:45:20.590 --> 00:45:21.630
Yeah, bread friends.
00:45:21.710 --> 00:45:22.190
We all need more.
00:45:22.990 --> 00:45:24.429
We all need more breadfriends.
00:45:24.590 --> 00:45:32.510
Well, I want to thank you for for joining me for this uh inaugural uh uh live recording of this episode.
00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:38.510
And thank you to everyone who decided to kind of join us in the session uh uh with Rose.
00:45:38.670 --> 00:45:43.389
And if people want to learn more about you, listen to your podcast, how do they track you down?
00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:44.750
They can find my podcast.
00:45:44.990 --> 00:45:53.469
It's at Kitchen Tape Pod, anywhere you listen to podcasts, or they can find me on Instagram at PRoseWild or at Redbread.
00:45:53.949 --> 00:45:56.829
Um I also have a substack called Eat More.
00:45:56.990 --> 00:45:57.309
That's it.
00:45:57.389 --> 00:45:59.070
That's the that's all the parts of me I'm gonna find out.
00:45:59.230 --> 00:46:01.550
And your new your next book is expected to come when?
00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:05.070
Uh, I think it's gonna be March, but let's just say early spring.
00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:06.670
Okay, 2027.
00:46:07.150 --> 00:46:07.869
2027.
00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:08.429
Woo! Yeah.
00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:17.789
Uh obviously, if you'd uh if you would like to learn more about Sour House, uh, you can always find us at sourhouse.co or life at Sourhouse.
00:46:17.949 --> 00:46:20.110
And yeah, thanks everybody for joining us.
00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:20.909
Thanks for listening.
