Restoring Trust, Accountability, and Community in America

AOP Rashawn Ray Final: I talk about politics, I ask I end up asking them a very simple question. Have you voted before? And you know what I realize? A lot of them say no. And then I say, why not? And they say, because I don't think it makes a difference. And then I say, hmm. Well, if you were shown that it could make a difference and because what what I'm a what it's really about, and then I say, and someone was to walk you through the process, would you be open to me? And they say yes. And why do they say that? Because what I realize at the end of the day, they're worried. They don't know how to show up. They've never been to a polling place. They've never seen a ballot before. And so we have to meet them where they are and doing something as simple as, hey, you know, you, hey, I'm going to vote. You wanna come? Like, are you registered? If you're not, I can show you how to get registered. They're like, really? Like, so when people say they're not gonna vote, they might be saying, I've never voted, I'm not registered, and I don't know how to vote. I'm Dr. Dana Fisher. Welcome to the Apocalyptic Optimist Podcast. We'll talk about what's broken and how we, and yes, even you, can actually fix it. Welcome to the Apocalyptic Optimist Podcast, real talk about what's broken and how to fix it. I'm Dana Fisher. Today we are joined by Ray Sean Ray, an amazing scholar and a friend of mine. Ray Sean is a leading thinker on racial justice in America. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thanks so much, Dana. I'm really excited to be on with you and had this conversation. So I but before we get down to what's going on now, I thought you could just start by telling us a little bit about your work and your experience in Your experiences documenting racial justice or the lack thereof in America. Yeah, so broadly my my research focuses on racial inequality. And in doing so, what I aim to do is kind of follow upperly mobile people throughout the life course. So my work has focused on black Americans, Latinos, people of different groups, indigenous populations, and really thought about their transition from family life, education, work, community experiences. health care and policing. And so a lot of my research most recently has focused a lot on policing in the criminal justice system, as well as kind of these illness spillovers of police violence. And obviously protests become so relevant for that. I mean, including work that that we've done looking at a series of of very important outcomes. And I mean I reflect on this now as we see what's happening in Minneapolis and and other places around the country because it's not only there, as you know, and and and accordingly, we kind of see the colliding of a series of things. So my work typically aims to to uncover what are some of the main mechanisms that lead to racial inequality. And then I think importantly, what are ways that we can actually address some of the inequality that that exists not only in the United States but in other parts of the world. Amazing. So Well, have you figured out the answer to that? Because if you do, let's cut to the chase. Right. A few you know, I think of I think there are like a you know, a few things that I'm sure we'll get into that I think work very well. I think as you know with your work, there's a difference between knowing what can solve things and then humans having the will to actually do it. And I think that that is the really important question is how do we get people and our elected officials To actually have the political will, the moral will to do what's right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, and so I mean, I want to talk about policing a little bit because in a lot of ways, when I think of policing and people who study policing, you're one of the peop first people who comes to mind. And you've done such amazing work to try to help police forces to be more accountable, to have their policies be more transparent, to work better with citizens. I know you were involved in a whole bunch of work after George Floyd was murdered. So We're currently seeing this interesting moment in time where we have law enforcement that are not police who are parachuting into cities across the country and doing their own form of I don't know if we can even call it policing, but I was wondering if you could reflect a little bit on as a policing scholar what you're seeing about what's going on in cities with these federal agents, you know, parachuting in. And what we can, you know, if what you're seeing also is what you would have expected if I we'd had this conversation, you know, a year and like a month ago, would you have expected this and why or why not? I think on that latter point, the the answer is no. partly because before the second Trump administration, presidents have deployed federal law enforcement and especially ICE in very different ways. They have primarily done border control enforcement. That's primarily where they've been situated. And they would definitely deploy certain federal law enforcement for individuals that have clearly committed violent crimes. That's kind of always been the case. But the way that they are going in and actually having what they call surges and aiming to take over cities is something that we haven't really seen before. And and definitely look, we can go back historically and see the way that the National Guard had been historically deployed, particularly during the civil rights movement. It really had not been that way up until recently. And even now we see a huge change, for example, with the National Guard, where I think what the Trump administration thought the National Guard was gonna be was kind of that nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties style National Guard. And the National Guard doesn't exactly exist that way anymore. It's been an organizational shift, a cultural shift that many people think for the better, where they are showing up to actually help improve lives rather than actually disrupt them. And with ICE, part of what is happening with immigration customs enforcement is that they are being deployed in ways that I think actually resemble military missions. There was a really good op ed that I read from a retired soldier who was saying, I know a mission when I see one. And I think that perspective is something that people should keep in mind is that they are showing up not to necessarily try to actually identify people who might be here illegally. But they are literally going in with a profiling approach where they are using indicators that are baked in bias as it relates to people's skin tone, their accent, their language. They are also going to places where we see a larger percentage of immigrants. It's not just about these perceived sanctuary cities. It's also about the fact of where are we more likely to see certain types of people and certain types of groups? And so we can see that happening. And then I think one of one of the other big things for people to recognize, and Gabe Sanchez and I wrote a piece in Brookings about this, which is the way that ICE is being hired and the way that they're being trained. That is very different from the past. What is happening on the hiring front, not only are people getting huge incentives, which I have no problem with. Like I actually think that law enforcement overwhelmingly have a have a very difficult job and should actually be paid. More money. So the incentives to get people into law enforcement, I think, is a good one because we do need incentives to have more law enforcement. But along with those big incentives, $50,000 sign-on bonus, they are hiring people on the spot without having a background check. And that's problematic for two fundamental reasons. The first reason that is problematic is because when we look at where fairs, these career job fairs for ICE and federal law enforcement are, they are they seem to be politically driven. They are not universally acceptable. They are more likely to be in more conservative red areas relative to more liberal blue areas. And in that regard, that doesn't necessarily give everyone the same access and opportunity, but it also speaks to potentially the type of person politically that they might be going for. The second thing on the background front Is when you hire someone and don't do a proper background check for law enforcement, there are a few things that have to happen. First, previous law enforcement experience doesn't necessarily mean that that that's a good thing. And what I mean by that is there has to be a background check to make sure that that a person has not been under investigation for misconduct, hasn't left a job, hasn't been fired from a job. And this is the reason why states like Texas, of all places, pass the wondering officer law. Which was informed by my research and others, which says that an officer or a person who's under investigation or was fired for misconduct cannot go work in another department. Like, duh, like how simple is that? These are the exact kind of people we don't want in these type of jobs. So the lack of a background check is a problem. Let's move on to training quickly. Well, can I just ask a quick one can ask a quickie question? Quickie question is the types of steps that you're talking about. Are common for law enforcement in the United States in most states though, right? Without a doubt. I mean, the background checks are common. The psychological evaluation is common. These are steps that are being missed because the psychological evaluation that happens, where psychologists are actually doing it, they're looking for, they're not just looking for bias or something like that. What they're looking for is social dominance orientations, meaning when people get power, that they are more likely to be emboldened and they will be more likely to use force than not. These are the type of people who we actually do not want being in law enforcement because they will abuse that power. So when you miss over that step and then you couple that with taking training from eight weeks down to roughly 47 days, which is symbolic for the 47th president, and then part of that, then you remove the Spanish language training that they previously received for five weeks. Now you have people showing up where they're getting more advanced tactics. They're not getting Spanish language. They're told to use their phone. So now there's a barrier between them. And then they show up in masks and sometimes unmarked vehicles. You set up a recipe for what we saw in Minneapolis. And unfortunately, I saw this coming long before individuals started losing their lives in Minneapolis in a very public way. Because when you put these dynamics together, when law enforcement messes up, people get hurt. And when people get hurt, people get killed. Yeah, it's very stark. I mean, it's interesting. I w well, we're gonna we're gonna circle back to a bunch of things that I ha I wanted to talk about earlier, but what I to build off of that, it also seems like so it's a recipe for people losing lives, but it also seems like a recipe for setting up clashes with people who might be there to protest or to bear witness to the the actions of law enforcement, or in this case of the federal agents, right? So we we know that in Minneapolis and in a lot of other cities, when there is these, you know, federal, this federal agents coming in, a lot of activists have or been organizing in their communities to follow people around, to blow whistles, to keep track of them, to record on their phones. And those people who are who are actually, you know, practicing our First Amendment rights to be able to be on the street and to keep track of what's going on for their communities. They're being set up in some ways to come into contact with people who are ill trained, it sounds like, and who are really prepared to abuse power. I mean, that's exactly right. You know, and and that's the unfortunate reality is when they haven't had a lot of training when they haven't had a lot of training, they also haven't had the ability to interact in these different ways with the public. And particularly when we start talking about protesters, that is one good example. They get training. oftentimes on how to deal with protesters. And that is something that clearly is not happening. The other thing that I want to flag that I think is really important for people is because with with with some of with some of the killings that have happened, people have said, well they have a lot of experience. Well what people don't understand with that is, you're now mixing people who have had a lot of experience with people who have not had a lot of experience. And if George Floyd, if the murder of George Floyd told us anything, that's can also be a recipe. for disaster because it's very hierarchical and if someone yells something like gun or someone has a weapon, those more experienced officers are are reacting in a way that newer officers may or may not be reacting in that way and collectively they're not operating on the same page and it leads to a very disruptive and a very chaotic scene, especially when you have protesters involved. That sounds that makes it sound more worry worrisome than it already seemed to me. So that's Dangerous. I so I'm gonna shift gears a little bit to talk about, you know, Black History Month, to talk about racial justice in America, and to talk about resistance in America. so it's as a as I mentioned before, it's the hundredth anniversary of Black History Month. We are coming off of last month where MLK Day did not get the same level of attention that it has from the federal government in the past. And I was wondering if you can reflect a little bit on kind of where we are. And where we need to be going with regard to I mean, this is going back to your work on racial justice and racial equity in our country kind of broadly. do you have thoughts, advice for for what we should you know, how we as people should be trying to to push back and to make sure that we don't take I don't know, it's not even two steps back, it's like I don't know, fifty steps back, however many steps, I'm not sure. You tell me. And unfortunately I think you're right. Like, I mean, we like the rollback, I don't think people understand the extent to which the dismantling of our social institutions, which started with federal contractors and federal government workers, how that is sending ripples throughout not only our country, but throughout the world in terms of how we show up and how we preserve and aim to protect democracy and the the the ways that we built up a muscle for what justice and equity look like. And so I I think I think that it's a few things. I'll start with policy on the federal level and then I'll get to people. which I think obviously informed policy and and informed what happens. I think on the policy front, we are seeing huge fissures if we just look across states on progress. Take Maryland, for example. Maryland at the end of twenty twenty five passed a reparations bill focused on forming a commission that is really gonna lift up very direct recommendations. It's it's not necessarily a study in that regard. They are lifting up exact recommendations and I know this because I I actually helped draft some of that legislation and testified on it where it's gonna be a blueprint and it is a blueprint for what's happening. And I think Maryland is a blueprint for policing too. And a few years ago it passed the Maryland Policing Accountability Act, which is the most transformative piece of legislation on policing. Now, why did that happen? Well, certain things are ripe in Maryland, meaning the state legislature is aligned with the governor, which is aligned with what people want. That is not the case in in a lot of other states. But then we can go to a state like Colorado, which is doing some similar things, has also passed some really strong legislation around policing. For example, what they passed is legislation that requires law enforcement to purchase liability insurance, which is a recommendation that I've had for years. Well now. Yeah, so Colorado passed it and and I and it's well explain what it means though, because I think a lot of people won't understand. So please, this is so fabulous. I'm so excited. I didn't know that it was actually being activated because I remember when you were talking about how this was a necessary step for law enforcement. Tell us all that, please. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm really excited about it. So so essentially let's first talk about liability insurance. I think the simplest way for people to think about it is if you were a plumber, an electrician, if you had another job, you would need liability insurance. And That means if you do something or hurt somebody, well, your insurance is gonna cover for it. Like even if it's a mistake, right? And so that's the liability insurance piece. So what the state of Colorado is doing is instead of simply giving out civil settlements for police misconduct, meaning, to your point about explaining, these settlements, like and we've been referencing George Floyd, but we could reference so many others, that the money from that settlement comes from taxpayer money. It does not come from the police budget. It is outside of that. So it is coming from the general funds, which could be going to education or climate justice or social services, stuff that people actually need that reduces crime and actually helps make law enforcement's job easier. So basically you're saying that historically if somebody was shot and it they were found from the p by the police and they were found to, you know, in a civil case to be guilty. The when the police pay out the family after somebody is murdered, you know, accidentally by the police, that money doesn't come from the police. It actually comes from like the state budget. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, and and oftentimes the local budget, right? So if a person lives in Los Angeles and there is a police killing, and that killing is viewed as unjustifiable, meaning that that person should not have died, that money comes from general funds. That taxpayers are paying this general pool of money, and that is how it's paid out. And I mean, I could go down like the rabbit hole of how bad this is because we focus on these large places. But with law enforcement, there are 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the US, and some of them are very small. It's like in the heat of the night. So when something happens in these small places, these places don't have the money to pay, which is why they then have a municipal risk pool. They already are part of an insurance pool. And that these are the exceptions that prove the rule on why this model works. Because what ends up happening is if let's go back to Colorado, officer does something, hurt somebody. Because sometimes this it's not even about the killings. I I think people don't realize that it's a lot of people who just get hurt by police. That a person might have not been killed. And say the settlement isn't millions of dollars. Say it's $300,000, just paying medical bills, some pain and suffering, the fact these people couldn't work. Well now, instead of that. 300,000 coming from Denver's budget, 25,000 of that will come from the officer's liability insurance, which then, just like your vehicle, if you keep having accidents, your insurance company is not going to insure you. And then guess what that means? Then you can't drive. That's the same thing for law enforcement. And what I hope some of the next steps will be here talking about what progress looks like for racial justice. I think what some of the next steps look like is for this to continue to be adopted across states. But then to link the insurance to their certification, which means if you can't get insurance, you can't get certified. If you can't get certified, you can't be a cop. And in policing, the ends of the bell curve, like the five, ten percent on each end, so roughly ten to twenty percent of cops, that's where a lot of the problems are, right? There are tons of officers going out, doing their job, aiming to keep their community safe, but they know who the bad ones are, like like Derek Chauvin. Everybody knew. that this dude was bad was a bad deal in in the Minneapolis Police Department they knew that. So I think that's the policing front. I think so that's kind of on a federal level. And I talked about reparations and I think that that will continue to build as well. Well it's a one question though. So the so the liability policy is is that's locally driven by col by the state of Colorado or is it by the by Denver? It's like the whole state of Colorado? It's the state. For Colorado it's the state. And the idea though is that this could spread from state to state, right? That's exactly right. There are other states. There are are jurisdictions within states that are considering this. And then at the state level, there's are also states that are considering this. And they've been looking at Colorado as a model. and again, I think it's fair with the twenty five thousand because, you know, you don't want to put all of that burden on the law enforcement officer. Now people might say, Well, why not? They did it. Well, because they work. for an organizational structure that that allow for some of this to happen. So the police department also needs liability insurance to cover that. So the taxpayer money is not actually the ones covering these these payouts. And just to tell people how much we're talking about, Dane, if we go, if we look from 2015 to 2019, over $2 billion, $2 billion was spent out on civilian payouts for police misconduct. This was only in the 50 largest police departments. Across whole country. Just the fifty wait, so just the fifty wow. Exactly. We are talking about billions and billions of dollars. And as much as we talk about our infrastructure and our democracy, so so I think that's the policing front. On the reparations front, I think that there is movement there. But I also think what needs to happen is a protection of the progress that's been made. And I think that we're not I I do think I don't want to say that's not happening. I think people aren't paying attention to it as much. There are organizations like Democracy Forward that are really taking on a lot of legal cases. There are other organizations like the lawyers committee that's taking on a bunch of legal cases. And that's what people need to really follow, right? Because that's what's gonna end up being written down. One big thing I'm paying attention to is summer twenty twenty six or slightly sooner. When the Supreme Court will rule on a huge part of the Voting Rights Act from 1965. And if they remove that, that is going to be that is going to have huge implications for people's ability to get out and vote, which is part of why we need people to continue to protest. We need people to continue to figure out how to use social media in ways that are productive, in spite of this digital dictatorship where now the algorithms are being controlled. Content that like like this that we think people we know people want to hear about are being diluted when you use certain words, certain hashtags. So all of these things can change, but people have to realize it does start with what we do on the that's a great transition into talking about activism and movements and resistance in the second Trump administration. Now just for background for anybody who's listening, Raishawn and I actually worked together back during the first Trump administration to document some of the Mass mobilizations. In fact, we worked together at, you know, to study and document the first women's march. And so actually the the two two leaders of the women's march were actually on a podcast before you. They're talking about Women's March 2017, which was which continues to be the largest singlet protest in US history. And Rashana and I were out there collecting data and looking at intersectionality in the crowd and how people in this protest were working together across identity orientation and social class. So today we see resistance, and for lack of a better title, we're calling it resistance two point has risen up, right? It's different. It's coming from it's much more distributed across the country, much less focused on these kind of large-scale moments of protest in big cities, but we're seeing people coming out. And I've been working with a lot of the groups who are trying to turn people out again and again for these days of action and these large scale protests. And one of the things that we're seeing in the crowd is that. Resistance 2.0 is older. It's even whiter. We're seeing like almost 90% of people who are turning out for these large scale days of action are white, predominantly female and highly educated. So, in a lot of ways, it's the same trend that we saw way back in 2017, but like to the max. So, one of the things I wanted to ask you is I wanted to ask you about, you know, we're not seeing people of color come out for these days of action. And I'm wondering if you can help reflect on. How to build solidarity and and what's going on and how we can figure out ways to bring everybody out because we obviously know that it's gonna take everybody pushing back as much as they can to affect the kind of changes that are needed. Yeah, I completely agree. It's a great question. And I think I've had a lot of conversations and have thought a lot about this. And I think it boils down to two things. I think the first thing is that a lot of people of color, especially black people who have been pushing as it relates to Black Lives Matter over the past decade plus, are tired. They are exhausted. And I I think the best analogy I can give, like like you said earlier, it's like moving fifty steps steps back. And what they feel like is that they were pushing a huge boulder up a mountain. And then all of a sudden their feet slipped and the boulder went all the way back down the mountain. And they're like, my gosh, we have to go all the way back down and push it back up. So So it's a mental health, emotional health exhaustion piece to this that that I really see with people who have really been pushing for a very long time. They they feel as though that the rug got pulled out from under them and they are exhausted. The second part of that is there are a group of people who feel like this isn't our fight. We were doing this so hard, and the the America we believed in let us down. And So there are several people, especially in the black community, who take people not voting for Kamala Harris at the rate they thought they should as being a slap in their face. And I think those two things, coupled with the 2025 and the dismantling of the federal government space, where is one of the few spaces when we start talking about black history where after the civil rights movement, black people were able to get some version and a quicker version of equality to be able to access certain jobs that what happened in the federal government has also disproportionately affected black people and primarily black women who we know have similar to white women have continued to lead these protests and the work that's happening on the ground. And so you put those things together and you have a group of people who are just downtrodden right now. Like they are very disenchanted with what's going on. And I think it will turn around. And I think that it will change. And and I also think what happened in Minneapolis is starting to help do that, but I think it's gonna take a little Yeah, no, I mean, that's makes a lot of sense. I mean, so I talk to a lot of organizations that are trying to figure out ways to mobilize and bring out I mean, one thing everybody's trying to figure out is how do you bring out younger people? How do you bring out college students? We're just not seeing college students, and how do you bring out, you know, members of frontline communities and people of color who are feeling, you know, disproportionately affected by these, you know, and targeted at, you know. By the Trump administration. Do you have advice for them? I mean, what what what should is there something that I should be encouraging them to do to try to increase you know increase this sense of solidarity or build solidarity where there isn't any right now? So there are two interesting trends that that I've been paying attention to. One is one that that people know, but people I think are missing where they are. So social media. Okay, I mentioned earlier this digital dictatorship, like the the way that people were able to use social media a decade ago. For the Black Lives Matter marches, for the women's march, you can't use social media in that same way anymore. Like that the algorithms are set up. One of the best examples I can give you, Super Bowl. Okay. Some people are freaking out 'cause Bad Bunny's performing, like he is an American from Puerto Rico. Like Puerto Rico is in the United States, part of the United States. So they're freaking out and all this stuff. And I go on different platforms because it's the Super Bowl, and this dude just won a Grammy for album of the year. Like what what are we talking about? He was not in the top ten on X. There's no possible way he's not in the top ten on X. And right after the halftime show, everybody's gonna be searching for him. That is a deliberate dilution of the term bad bunny. Like they deliberately diluted that. And we see that across platforms, right? So so what's the point there? The point there is where people are. A lot of young women, girls and young women, are on TikTok. A little bit on Instagram, but they're on TikTok. That's why the Some people have been trying to purchase TikTok. They have been trying to control it because TikTok was the most organic platform we had ever seen. And they want that to go away. Where are most young men and boys? They're on YouTube. That's where they are. They're watching long form content. They are being fed narratives about the manosphere, the fact that women are taking their jobs, that Women are submissive to you, that you're losing your place in society. The same narratives that they were driving specifically to white men, but now it's just across the board to men as it relates to gender. And you put those things together, what does that mean? Well, first that means boys and girls and young men and women are not in the same ecosystems. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is depending on which platforms people go to, they're missing a demographic. And so the I I reflect back on the work we did. what we publish in Science Advances and others, like the intersectional nature of what was happening a decade ago has been purposefully dismantled by the digital dictatorship. They saw the ways that people were coming together. So I think that's the first thing. So so what should people do? Well what should people do? Because I mean that's exactly I I've I've even observed this in my own posting and try you know, trying to figure out how to get the word out on different platforms and it's just it's amazing that in one place everything like just gets picks up and the other place you get three hits and you're like I know. How's that possible? So so what do we do? So I think what we do, I think to your point, I think first we have to hit up multiple platforms. So like what you're doing. Like some things, things hit in one place, they hit in another place. So it's it it literally is people can't just take one platform and and post anymore. People have to post across. But the second big trend is is as it relates this to spirituality and religion. One big trend I'm seeing is young people drinking less, attaching more to religion. Wanting to know about spirituality. Now, I think religious institutions are not doing a great job at bringing them back in, and I think that is the portal is to actually set up opportunities for young people to get together on a Friday night. This is the essentially the loneliest generation, like they are in isolation. So what e what can you do about that? Host things on a Friday or Saturday night. Bring them together. Get back to small groups. View these as like teachings, but figure out ways how to have similar narratives. across the board. So if people are on different coasts, they can come together. They're having similar conversations in person. And so I really think we have to get back to the organicness of that. So on one hand, I'm saying, yes, leverage social media and do it across the board. Well realize that unless you're posting in different ways, you're going to miss a demographic. But I think I think the the religious hubs, the way that they are looking to come to places, just come as you are. They don't want to have to dress up. They don't want to have to do all that. They just want to be in community. And I think that that we need to get back talking about Black History Month and the Civil Rights Movement, get back to the way that religious institutions have played a very big role in mobilization. And I think that that that's being missed and we we really gotta get back to that. And I think I think it's I think it's gonna work. I've seen some religious institutions and churches in certain places who have not always young, but oftentimes young leaders who are in their twenties, thirties, forties, who are bringing out thousands of young people to come in and worship, but really what they're doing is is creating community. And I think we have to get back to that. Okay, so I have a bunch of thoughts about what you just said. So and half of them just left my brain. I mean one of them that I was gonna say is that I know that you actually were involved in doing these I know I gonna say first is that I mean one of the reasons I think that we see such isolation amongst young people right now is that if we think back to their history, I mean I think for example of like my daughter. So my daughter's nineteen. She, you know, she had a whole period of time that was like key developmental period where she was in lockdown and you know, schools were closed and she, you know, she was in the room next door and go, you know, going to school online. So she was completely isolated. We tried to do family stuff. Our neighborhood really tried to actually do a bunch of like we did neighborhood fires outside where we had like campfires. So the kids would all come out and play outside and get outside of the house. But it was a tough time. And so the kids. had that. They came of age during a period of Trump and watching what the Trump administration did the first time around. So it makes a lot of sense that these kids do not have a lot of the same type of social connections and they haven't grown up with the same kind of social glue that we have historically experienced. But I was I wanted to talk about I know that you were doing events with young men at one point. And I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about that. and how and how that worked because at least I got to see some of it on some platforms. I didn't get to go 'cause I'm not a young man. but I'm curious about, you know, what lessons learned from that for you. Yeah, I mean it I I appreciate the question 'cause I in this regard I'm I'm I'm trying to be the example that I just said. So what I started doing to your point during COVID and coming out was I just realized how isolated people were. And even some of my friends who were married with kids and had robust careers, I was like, wow, if they're feeling like this. I know everyone is probably feeling like this. So a group of us just started having these meetups and would just invite different people to connect with one another. And from there, I was like, hmm, I think we should put this out into the world. And so we kind of curated on experience to have some people come by and talk about success and talk about what they're worried about and what, you know, what what bothers them. and then since then I've done a few more where I've aimed to to pair up people across generations. So my boys' ages, teenagers, twenty-somethings that are in college, or like late teens or early twenties, 30 year olds, 40 year olds, 50 year olds, to get them in conversation with one another. And I've watched how their networks have just blossomed. Like a 35 year old is having a weekly text call with a 55 year old, like and they're just talking about life and they're talking about career and because they're kind of in the same field and and those kind of things are happening. And so people are yearning for that community. And then based on this work in the state of Maryland, Governor Moore has recently launched a Young Men and Boys initiative. And I've been fortunate to be deeply involved with that. And we're focusing on two key pieces. We're focusing on exactly what we're talking about. We're talking which we're focusing on workforce development because for most men They attach their masculinity and their self-worth to their job and how much money they make. Should it be that way? No. But you know what? That's just the reality. And part of it is we need to own up to that and realize that. And they are struggling. And then the second piece is dealing with mental health. That if you look at suicide rates currently, they are skyrocketing for boys and young men. And and and even boys of color, like black boys, is really skyrocketed. And so part of it is aiming to address those things. And so we're gonna be funding some community-based organizations that do this work. Vincent Harrington is is leading this up. He he's from the state of Maryland. And I think part of what the aim is is around the state, is this example that I just gave of getting people together, is that is the goal to curate these experiences, to bring men together, to be able to have conversations with one another. I think the same thing should happen with girls and young women, but as it relates to boys and young men where we really see struggles that that hopefully we can we can continue to change some things and put a dent in some of the the negative outcomes that we see. So interesting. I mean and it's what I think is interesting is how this goes back to what I've observed with people participating in resistance type activities that we've seen a lack of, you know, not a lack of men, but we've seen a lot more women than men. I mean that's been a trend since the first Trump administration, but also particularly a lack of young men. And I'm wondering if, you know, if you have thoughts, having spent the time with young men and you know and boys, to see if if there's a way to to think about this building of, you know, social capital and these relational ties between people and communities, how to put a political le layer on that. Or, you know, because we know that community is about engagement. And some of that can be political and some of that can be preparing for if ICE comes to your community or preparing to make sure that people are registered to vote so that everybody takes advantage of our democratic opportunities. Are there any ways that you've thought about doing that through these types of programs? Yeah, most definitely. I I think I think one of the biggest things that I've learned is we have to meet them where they are. That to your point about who's showing up for protest. is it's is not only as you noted most mostly women, they are also highly educated. And I think that the gap between people who are highly educated, like us, right, compared to people who are not, is is pretty substantial as it relates to how we think we have the the ability to actually change things. And when I talk to young men, the biggest narrative I hear is none of that matters. In fact, they will actually compare Democrats and Republicans to gangs. They will say, it's like the Crips in the Bloods. Like it it doesn't matter which one of them is in office. And I'm like, it completely does matter, right? But I have to meet them where they are. So if they are comparing elected officials to gangsters, and then they give examples of where some of them have acted as gangsters. Some of them probably are legit answers too, and examples, right? They're not always wrong, right? So so part of it is meeting them where they are, but then showing them how on a very local level, and this is why I think The locality matters. It's showing them how in a very small place their vote can really make a big difference. The I'll tell you the other thing that I've been able to make movement on with them is showing them that voting in elections is not only about voting for a candidate. You are also voting on issues. Like they are very economically driven. So I can show them, hey, do you know that when you vote in the county or at the state level, that it has a twenty three million dollar appropriation for this thing? And you get to say yes or no about it. They're what? I didn't know I could vote on that. I'm like, you hold the keys. You have the power. So part of what I think has happened, and we even see this with cable news, there are so many talking points that it gets distracting. And what I've learned to do with them is first listen, and I'm like, okay, I get where they're coming from. And then to shrink it down. And part of what that means is is making it hyper, hyper local. The other thing we gotta recognize is where they're geographically located. So When I look at places where that have the highest percentage of single men compared to single women, it's a fascinating analysis. They are different places. They're not the same places. Where is it? Where is it? I'm curious. So so so like for for single men, it's like Nevada. They're in like the Las Vegas area. Some of are in New Mexico. Some of are like in the outskirts of of Los Angeles. Where are single women? They're like in DC, they're in Atlanta. They're like, you know, so so these they're in different places. And what that means is if we talk about relationships, for example, they're mismatches on where people are and the pool of people they have access to. And so we have to recognize where people are, how they show up. But but I'll say this. what what what will work? I think what will work again is what I'm suggesting is going local. Literally, like I asked them when when I talk about politics, I ask, I end up asking them a very simple question. Have you voted before? And you know what I realize? A lot of them say no. And then I say, why not? And they say, because I don't think it makes a difference. And then I say, hmm, well, if you were shown that it could make a difference and because what what I'm a what it's really about, and then I say, and someone was to walk you through the process, would you be open to it? And they say yes. And why do they say that? Because what I realize at the end of the day, they're worried. They don't know how to show up. They've never been to a polling place. They've never seen a ballot before. And they're getting all their news from Joe Rogan or Joe Button or whomever we want to say the top podcasters already listened to. And so in that regard, part of meeting them where they are is to not is to not talk over them. I use different words. Last example on this. Had a I don't know, something happened in the house. I had to fix something. Like some something was broken. And I don't know how to do that, right? And and I I tell people that. Like they show and they're like, hey, well, what's wrong? Did you try this? man, that's why I called you. I don't know how to fix the leak. That's not what I do well, right? You're the expert. So I I I I'm like, you're the expert. You tell me. Educate me, right? Some kind of way I had a movie poster up and he asked me, he was like, Yo, you like that movie? I was like, Yeah, that's why I got the poster on the wall. I think it was Harriet, right? Harriet is one of my favorite movies. I was Yeah, I was You familiar with Harriet Tell me? He was like, Yeah, a little bit. And so we started talking. And evidently during the conversation, I used a word. I do not remember what the word is. But to me, it was a very simple word. And his response to me was, I was like, So what do you think? Because you know I talk fast, right? Like Dana, me and you, we talk fast, and then we talk like we get and we can keep up with each other, right? And so so he sat there and he looked at me he said, He said, Hey, I think I can ask you this and it won't come off in any way. He said, You used this word like a while ago, and literally I had used it like two minutes ago. So I said all these words since then. He had no idea what I was No idea. And so I say all that to say what I learned and all of that. First, I told him what the word meant. He was like, I appreciate that. He was like, my dad's gonna like that word. To make this drive this home, Cassanet is one of the biggest YouTubers. It's like social media influencers, right? He's a young black man. I think he's maybe like 18, 21. I know. Something like that. And he has started reading books. And the bo the words that he doesn't know how to say, Cadamus was one of them. And he was like, I don't know what it was. He looks it up. He's being very vulnerable. The literacy gap. You just gave me chills. That was that yeah, wow. Yeah, like I don't think Mr. Beast is gonna do that on on YouTube. Yeah, and he he's one of the biggest stars, right? So so I say that to say his level of vulnerability, but he can do that because now he's a multimillionaire, right? And so he's and I say that to say if if we're thinking that these young men, many of whom cause it's a huge gap, who haven't been educated in the way that they should have because their schools have failed them and the working infrastructure has failed them. If we think that the political that we're gonna get them to buy into the political system and they can't get a good job, we're delusional. And so we have to meet them where they are. It doesn't mean dumbing things down because you can be smart and not know words, but it does mean meeting them where they are and doing something as simple like, hey, you know, you hey, I'm going to vote. You wanna come? Like are you registered? If you're not, I can show you how to get registered. They're like, really? Like, so when people say they're not gonna vote, what I hear behind that, to close this long monologue, is that they might be saying, I've never voted, I'm not registered, and I don't know how to vote. Yeah, no, I mean and that actually connects back to a point you made before when you were talking about the historical role that churches played. I mean, particularly and full disclosure, I'm teaching a an activism course right now. So Excuse me. So we're we're learning about the civil rights movement a lot. We're reading some of the Alden Morris' amazing work. Yeah. And in his work, he talks specifically about the role that the Black Black Church played, particularly in housing and supporting black activists of all sorts in the civil rights movement. I mean, but but e more than just that, what I think is so remarkable about that story is the way that the black church supported young people who were fed up with the slow p pace of progress. And basically said they wanted to get more confrontational. And instead of what we would imagine, what I would expect today, where they were like, yo, no, if you're gonna do this, get out, go somewhere else. Instead, they basically they supported them, they gave them money to bail themselves out of co of out of jail, they housed them when they didn't have somewhere to to sleep, they made food, people brought in food for them, they had a safe meeting place. We don't see that anymore. And so it just goes back to this whole point because. When you talk about people getting politically educated so that they actually have the civic tools they need to be citizens in our democracy and feel comfortable being citizens in our democracy, there's gotta be an inf the an organizational role for that. I mean, I think it's wonderful for you know for us to go into our communities and help in that way, but there's gotta be a place for organizations to fill that gap. And they have to be, you know, and we have to see more civic groups than just Spiritual groups because otherwise there's just gonna be an asymmetry in what and who's getting involved. And so I was wondering if you've if you've thought any about groups that might be able to serve that purpose in localities that are that go beyond religious groups, if you've thought about that. I mean the boys and girls clubs, you mentioned that, but others? Yeah, I mean boys and girls club, community centers, barbershops and hair salons. Like they they are in every community. It doesn't matter where you go, barbershops, hair salons. People spend a lot of time there. Those conversations are some of the deepest conversations that people ever have in their life. That is where you focus. And we've seen this in some ways, right? So if we take health, when if we're talking about young men, we know that they're less likely to go to the doctor. Well, how do you increase that? We've seen a lot of research documenting that you have the barbers allow people to come in and say, hey, can I do a glucose check? Can I talk to you about your health? And it actually Blood pressure checks. I've seen the blood pressure checks and blood pressure checks. Those are awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it increases it increases healthcare utilization. Like it's it's a simple thing to do. People are there. And and we and we saw that during COVID too, where they started aiming to increase COVID testing and COVID vaccines through barbershops and hair salons because people trust those people. They spend a lot of time with them. They're essentially like psychologists. And counselors at times, right? And that they're a listening ear and they give some advice. And so I think that that focusing through that, and that's how you get super local, right? And to your point with Alden Morris's work from the civil rights movement, that's what we saw then. And I think part of what's happened with a lot of religious institutions, churches, is that they became in b troublesome bedfellows with corporate America. So they're worried about what happens if they speak out too much because they might lose some corporate funding. And some of those corporations know that, so they're like bootstrapping them in a sense. And that's why the Target boycott, you know, even though I I had I still have questions. I'm like, to what end was the protest for? Like I feel like that that the demands were missing. But people bought into that and I think that's Wait, wait, before you before you say any more about this, just 'cause I think it's really important to just say for anybody who doesn't know, there was a there's been a boycott on Target because Target canceled its DEI policies completely and it it cancel them right at the beginning of the Trump administration. Right? Isn't that right when that happened? Yeah. That's exactly right. Anyway, go ahead now. I just want to make sure we were all everybody was on the same page. Yeah. I mean and and it's been big and it's continued. And one of the biggest proponents is actually a pastor, Jamal Bryant, who was in Baltimore. Now he's in Atlanta, and he's been one of the people at the forefront of that. My big thing is I'm like, okay, they cancel DEI, a lot of companies cancel DEI. What is the ask? Is the ask for them to restore? Their DEI program is the ask for them to donate money is the ask for them to do something different. Because part of what I worry about, and I haven't seen it yet, but I but it might still be too soon. Target, like one thing about Walmart, people might have problem with the with the Walton family in some in some respects. But Walmarts are in a lot of communities that other type of brick and mortar stores are not. And Target has started to move in that direction. So I worry with the boycott. And and it's just a consequence of of boycotts, right? But I worry that some targets might close. And in that case, it's not just about target. It's also about it's also about healthcare access. It's about food. It's about the fact that CVS clinics are and and pharmacies are there. But but that target protest is a good example of people can come together and they will protest. And I think again it's meeting people where they are and helping them to realize that that they can make a difference. Outstanding. So that so we're we're winding down here. I have one final question. And this is a this is a hard question. I've been trying to figure out how to how to talk about it. so this past week we saw an atrocious image, an atrocious and offensive image posted by the president of the United States, which was disrespectful, well disrespectful of of our former president Barack Obama, disrespectful of people of color, disrespectful in a whole range of ways. And You can say you don't want to talk about it and we'll just cut it completely. But I wanted to know what should we general people how do we respond? What do we do? Do you have any advice about that? Because I mean, first of all, I want all of my friends and my students who are people of color to know that it is unacceptable and that they are not alone in feeling horrified by this and that they that there are there are allies out there. So I want to know how to do that in a way that expresses it, but I also, you know. I just thought you might have some good advice for for everybody about what we should all be doing as a country, you know, as people to support one another in this time. Great question. And Dana, you know, I'm always down to talk about this, you know, talk about this kind of stuff in these important topics. So as you noted, the current president posted a picture of former President Obama and Michelle Obama as apes and the historical connection that is is aimed to be made between black people. And APIs is to suggest that black people are intellectually inferior. And it has a host of implications. That has implications for how people receive healthcare, the way that teachers interact with them in schools, the way that people view them is us us is more animalistic in public space. So so that that is a very deep stereotype. And to your point of what can we do? I think it's exactly what's happening now, is to have conversations about it, to help people. understand it. There are probably a generation of people who are like, why was this such a big deal? Like they they might literally not know. And I think we make assumptions that they would. And what again is meeting people where they are. So when I hear somebody say, Why is it a big deal, I say what I just said. And then I'm like, do you want me to keep going into detail? I could talk about the eugenics movement and how, you know, they would essentially you know re essentially make up data To show that, you know, black people were were less intelligent and more connected and, you know, to to animals in these different ways. and so first we we gotta have conversations about it. I think it's three things that I always think about. First is it's what I call people can be a racial equity learner. That's almost what we're talking about right now, is educating people about racism in America, what is done, but also the possibilities, right? The second is then we shift to becoming a racial equity advocate. That's what you're doing with your podcast, in a sense, with this episode and others that I've watched where you become, you advocate for something. You're like, hey, let's talk about this in this way. And morally, this is the right thing that's in line with democracy and equality and equity, not across a host of lines for justice, for the environment and all of its intersections. And then third, we get to a place where we can actually become a racial equity broker, which means we have the power through our voting. through our advocacy, through calling elected officials, through going to visit them, through writing them letters, then we can actually make a difference. And I think in this regard, one of the biggest things people can do is honestly have conversations when people like me aren't there. Because people are gonna say things that they wouldn't say if I was present. It's the same thing with gender, right? Like there are men who make comments in all male settings. And it's up to me to speak up and speak out to represent the girls and the women in my life who I who I love and care about. To represent them when they're not there. And I think when it comes to race, that's the same thing. People will say things. And it is our ability to disrupt that. Because my grandfather, who served 21 years in the military, always taught me your silence is your acceptance. We can't simply do that. We can say, That's not right. I don't agree with that. We're gonna get back and keep watching the Super Bowl, but we can come back to this. I don't agree with what you just said. I want to go on record. Like that is important. Why is that important? Because young people are watching. Other people who are staying silent. It's kind of what I call that muddled middle. They're watching to see who's gonna say something. So speaking up and speak out really, really matters. We can use our voice in many regards. It's the same way like when protesters use their physical bodies to stand in between people who they know that law enforcement or others might be trying to harm. So I think that we have a lot more power than we think. It's simply having this conversation, talking about it, like talking to kids about it, because this is the thing with social media now. That picture is viral. Like kids seeing it. So if parents are thinking, I don't want to talk to my kids about it. No, I'm pretty sure they saw it. And the question is, do they know how to process it? Do they know how to interpret it? And then do they know how to talk about it? And I think as adults, we can give them that lens of how to think and talk about it. That's wonderful. Well, we're out of time and this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and For sharing all of your expertise. It's so wide and I just we need like eight hundred Ray Shon Reis is what we need. That's that'll be if we could eight hundred data fishing too. So we we need that. But maybe we'll produce other you know, maybe there'll be other younger people. and I still think the first way in which we see it. Exactly. I mean I think that's that's that's that's the answer. We can't we we can't clone as far as I know. maybe someone somewhere in a lab in China can do it, but we We can't do it now, so instead we replicate through our teaching. And so thank you for coming on to help me share your wisdom. So I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you're feeling a little less apocalyptic and a little more optimistic now. I'm Dr. Dana Fisher and I'll see you next time. If you like this episode, like, subscribe, and even pass it to a friend. Thanks.