WEBVTT
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.319
I always say that I'm like a vampire.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:07.280
You know, when I feel down with what's going on in the world, I do a studio visit.
00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:09.839
If it's a bad studio visit, I get even worse.
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.199
But if it's a good studio visit, I can suck the blood in a sh.
00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:20.559
You are listening to What Shapes, a brand new podcast by Three Days of Design.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:24.480
Exploring how design can shape our world.
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:29.600
And we're kicking off this very first episode of the Design Rockstar.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:32.320
Our guest is Paula and Tony.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:38.560
Senior curator of architecture and design at the Museum of Modern Art in New York.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:43.840
And for more than three decades, Paula has explored what design can be.
00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:49.200
From objects to technology, ethics, culture, and humanity.
00:00:49.679 --> 00:01:00.799
Paula has been named one of the most influential design thinkers, one of the most powerful women in art, and one of the leading voices shaping contemporary culture today.
00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:06.719
My name is Veronica De Susa, and I have the great joy of being your host.
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.359
Welcome to What Shapes?
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:12.640
Thank you for having me, Veronica.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.120
It is my absolute pleasure.
00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.879
How did you fall in love with design?
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.519
By growing up in Milan.
00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:28.719
You know, it's um there hasn't been a moment, it was just part of life.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:37.599
So I I I was born in Sardinia, I grew up a little bit in Ferrara near Bologna, but then most of my life was in Milan, and my parents are from Milan.
00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:42.079
And in Milan, design is a natural part of everybody's life.
00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:56.319
So I remember when I used to go to my mom's hair salon, I would see, you know, there would be maybe Hello magazine or some other like Gen Gente, which is another general interest gossip magazine, and then there would be Domo San Abitare.
00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:01.760
So it was not something for people that were in design, it was for everybody.
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:11.280
So that kind of gave me a sense of discernment about design, uh, recognizing good design mostly.
00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.280
It took me a while to recognize bad design.
00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:14.400
It's funny, you know.
00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:28.639
It's sometimes you get you get educated naturally to recognize beauty and not the opposite of it, which might be laziness or you know, just like neglect, not really ugliness, but but that took longer.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:40.960
You said that good design is a renaissance attitude that combines technology, cognitive science, human need and beauty.
00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:59.439
And I think it's fair to say that in the more than three decades that you've spent kind of expanding the idea of what a design is from an object that has become widely recognized.
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:02.080
That is quite uh pioneering.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:04.639
You think so, huh?
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:10.159
Yeah, no, because I I feel that I've changed my mind at least a little bit.
00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:18.639
There was such an absolute statement, and there were a few concepts in it that are very questionable and should be toned down a bit.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:38.560
Not only the concept of beauty, but we can talk about it, but beauty is still in it's still understood in a certain way in the world, symmetry, there's a classical nature to it, and instead beauty can be punk and it can be profoundly ugly and still be beautiful, so uh needs a little nuance.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:48.080
What shaped that kind of expansive vision, that search for always investigating what design could be?
00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.360
Well, I think two two things.
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.560
One is that I've always revered journalism.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.599
So um might be out of time right now.
00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:03.919
Journalism is kind of like beleaguered, but I still really revere the idea of journalism.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:11.599
And I was working as a journalist, uh, yeah, I mean, amateur journalist when I was in my teens, you know, for newspapers in Milan.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:18.560
So that idea of reporting, of investigating, investigative reporting to me is just sacrosanct.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:23.279
And the second is that university that I went to, because it was such a mess.
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:30.319
You know, we were 15,000 students only in architecture, only in Milan, which meant that we didn't do anything practical.
00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.040
It was all theory because there was no place to do even to draw, even.
00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:43.439
So I got really strong um theoretical background, number one, and number two, there was no separation of design.
00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:52.160
So everything landscape design, urban planning, object design, graphic design, building design, everything was under the same roof.
00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.800
And uh it was part of the polytechnic, so also engineering fell together.
00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:05.120
So I I guess um there are some schools that teach you architecture as the love of buildings or design as the love of objects.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.480
And instead, I was in a very open-ended system.
00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:19.519
In many ways, you've you've contributed to continuously adding uh kind of adjacent fields to how we show design and what we understand as design.
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:26.160
Or has there been moments where you've been pushing for something that you call design, but that has met some kind of resistance?
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:31.360
It's never happened or it's always happened, depending on the context, right?
00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:35.360
When I'm amidst designers, they are elated.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:47.439
They just want to expand more and more and more because you know, the goal of designers is not only that of doing beautiful products, whatever their products are, but it's also to be used better.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:59.759
And to be used better means to be understood, respected, and involved also in the making of society in a more direct way, policy making and uh governor, governance and more.
00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.120
So when I'm with designers, it's never a problem.
00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:13.519
When I'm instead in more traditional uh artistic contexts, there's instead a lot of like protective reflex, right?
00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:18.480
It's a self-protecting, protective system that of art.
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:25.360
So they need to push you out as much as possible because they need to maintain the aura.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:36.480
And design is so powerful because it really has to do with everything that art has to do with, plus the reality check of having to produce something towards progress.
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.680
So that's where I sometimes get the pushback.
00:06:40.000 --> 00:07:01.920
Design is, in my opinion, an umbrella that gathers everything that has a goal that needs to be reached using the means at your disposal in the most elegant and sustainable and humane, and you can continue adding attributes way possible.
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:14.879
The materials can be wood or they can be code, or they can be bricks, or they can be mycelium, you know, and the scale varies depending on the context where you're working, but that's how I see it.
00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:16.319
All that is design.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:24.399
You talked about shifts before and kind of changing your perception uh which I guess is a healthy sign as a human being that we keep in mind.
00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:25.839
Definitely, yes.
00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:35.839
Um Do you have a few examples where you think that shifted that shifted your perception of how you view design?
00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:39.120
Well, let me think.
00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:45.120
Um it happened so many times that it's hard sometimes to pinpoint.
00:07:45.360 --> 00:08:01.120
First of all, I have to limit this gigantic definition of design, and I tend to limit it at uh something that involves at least one of the senses and that is meant to really be used by people and to go towards the progress of the world.
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:08.399
So I also consider scent a form of design, and in 2010 I I organized a whole symposium about it.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:21.360
Um but one of the biggest turning points to me was when I think it was 2013, there was the announcement of the 3D printing gun, 3D printed gun.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:39.840
I remember that I used to always talk about this concept of good design with capital G, capital D, which is a concept that was also purported by MoMA, you know, at the middle of the 20th century, this idea that you could educate the masses and elevate the masses through so-called good design.
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:43.039
So this idea that design is always for always for good.
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:56.399
I remember when the 3D printed um announcement happened, and I don't know if you remember, but the idea was to have this open source files that anybody could use to print a lethal gun pretty much at home.
00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.840
You could have it like a mediocre, you know, second-tier 3D printer.
00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:10.480
And it was published by Cody Wilson, who was this um um, well, he called himself a philosopher, like a libertarian in Texas.
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:14.320
Then he ended up going to jail for several other reasons.
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:25.519
But it was really shocking because all of a sudden, everything that I held dear, uh, progressive, new technology, advanced technology, design, open source, everything.
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.039
Descentralization.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.639
Yeah, everything, you know, just like everything was turned upside down.
00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:32.000
It was like for evil.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:38.480
So I started thinking of uh, I was telling you before I was not thinking of bad design, I started thinking about it.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:48.559
And you know, uh my great friend Alice Rosthorn has a lecture that she kind of updates every year about bad design, which I love.
00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.240
And you know, I was not thinking about it before.
00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.440
This is not even bad design, this is evil design.
00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:21.120
So I started this project with a colleague, Jaymer Hunt, about uh design and violence, and we looked for objects that have an ambiguous relationship with violence in society, ranging from the 3D printed gun to some prisons, especially in Scandinavia, that are almost like great leisure hotels, to the helmet to protect uh football players.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.120
So all of these objects that are good, yes, but also bad.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:48.720
You mentioned earlier that accessibility and kind of you know, that's also been a a shift of from the Renaissance era of saying top-down, uh, and that some of the the ways you look at design have shifted around that, and which I think is also you know clear from both design emergency and from a lot of the kind of later projects that you've been working on.
00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:57.840
So if you should uh and that's always difficult, but if you should have your your current Paola Antonelli definition of design.
00:10:58.480 --> 00:10:59.679
What does that sound like?
00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.279
It's still the same.
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.879
Um and that's the trick that I learned at school.
00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:09.840
If you have a definition that's abstract enough, then you can manipulate it, right?
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.440
So I don't change it, but then it encompasses everything.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.360
So it's between goals and means, right?
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:26.000
Something you have to achieve a goal and you use the means at your disposal in the most elegant, economical, you know, humane, sustainable, respectful, blah, blah, blah, blah way possible.
00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:42.320
So if you see, if you see it that way, you can really, really make it completely fully adaptable because all of a sudden the goal could be a collective goal and it could be established by many people as opposed to having one manufacturer or one family, you know.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:50.559
So it's uh it's almost like an equation, and the variables change every time, and uh and the outcome changes.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.639
So it's still the same definition.
00:11:54.799 --> 00:12:03.440
You've been consistently vocal about design not being neutral and that it has power.
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:13.440
So if you could direct that power, at least use this microphone to to speak your truth to the people listening.
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:22.639
What do you think are some of the most important things we should be focusing our design capabilities on right now?
00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:28.960
Right now it's about being political, not being lazy.
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:38.399
Um if that means if you're doing beautiful ceramics at home, do your ceramics and then go in the streets.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:51.200
If instead your design is already involved in public, just speak up and speak up not for a party or just for the sake of speaking up.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:57.440
Find your own ideals and goals and fight for them through your design, also.
00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:03.200
I believe that designers could be better used because you know our nature is intrinsically constructive.
00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:19.360
We try to not really solving problems, that's such a reductive uh way to think of design, but we have a good way of analyzing and setting the problem in front of us in a way that can also bring in other people to collaborate, right?
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:26.080
So we can we build teams, we are good at setting up the problem so that it can be tackled.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.200
And that's we should be used better, you know.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:33.440
That's what I really want to want for us.
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.759
And another thing that I want for us is for us to be paid all the time.
00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:42.879
Um, we have to train the world to the fact that intellectual labor is labor.
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:48.320
If you get asked for an internship or for a lecture for a panel, demand to be paid.
00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:58.240
It can be a few, you know, kroner or a few euros, but people must understand that intellectual labor is not uh ethereal.
00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.840
You still have to be paid just like the electricians and the caterers are paid.
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:21.279
So these two things that we have to work on is re-establishing intellectual labor as labor in society and trying to get involved in the mechanisms that create policies and create governance so that we have a say and we're not just passive observers.
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.879
I think power is incredibly interesting.
00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:35.679
Um and I think design has not been attributed enough power, I think when you when you think about the field in comparison to how powerful it can be.
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.039
How is it for you in your role?
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:52.000
Whereas, you know getting into MoMA, I guess, can kind of make a break, or not break, but it can make uh at least direct attention uh to someone or a purpose.
00:14:52.320 --> 00:15:01.200
How do you personally kind of deal with that both privilege but also responsibility of making those choices?
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:03.840
And what are some of the hardest dilemmas?
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.320
I feel very comfortable with that power.
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:12.879
I wanted it and I have it, and I don't think that anybody really gives you power, you take it.
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:32.240
And and believe that making my way to MOMA, which was kind of haphazard because it was an ad in a magazine, was my way to take that power, and now that I have it, I just look for people that have that power within them through their work.
00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:38.080
I mean, you sound like you're equally curious and equally excited as when you started out continuously.
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.840
Yeah, no, it hasn't gone down at all.
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:49.440
And you know, I I am uh sometimes I am delighted by somebody that says, we've we've made too much, there's too much in the world, let me subtract.
00:15:49.519 --> 00:16:03.440
I mean, to me, conceptually, um I always I always like compare the goal or the idea with how the person has gotten there and how difficult it was and what was lost along the way.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:15.840
So if the design subject is how to eliminate 80% of the couches that exist in the world and recycle them, I'm like, I'm all for it, right?
00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:22.320
But there's never ever shortage of great design ideas.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:24.799
So I'll gone forever.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.919
Is there something that you're particularly curious about now?
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:44.080
I mean, I'm thinking that if we all try to just travel a little bit into the mind of Palantunelli, what what is occupying you maybe of themes or things that are happening in the world, or whereabouts are you kind of throwing your antennas?
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:46.320
Many, many, many, many.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:52.799
So on the one hand, while you were talking and asking me this question, the first thing that I thought about was energy.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:02.720
I'm very curious to understand more about the Mini nuclear plants, and uh, because I've always been interested in nuclear energy and in energy in general.
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:11.279
Um, so I've been trying to study to understand what that means and also how batteries will be in the future on the one hand.
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:25.920
On the other hand, I'm very interested in our political inertia, and uh I would like to understand how we can all rise up to stand up to bullies, which we're not doing enough right now.
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.200
Uh so I'm I mean, I can I can go on forever.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:36.799
Luckily, I have an outlet for all these themes because I run these salons at MoMA that are called MoMA RD salons.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.240
The idea is that you can use a museum as the RD of society.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.799
We are at number 59, so you can tell.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.720
We haven't done one on nuclear yet, and we're gonna do one on lazy, you know, this month.
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:54.160
So every time, and we did one called The Age of the Bully, like two years ago.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.680
So all of these different topics come to mind when it comes to the design field.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:07.920
When I'm really looking into are two topics, you know, and they're both the subject, three actually, they're all subjects of an exhibition.
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:09.119
What are you seeing?
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:10.799
What is occupying you?
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.240
How do you think we can use design as resistance?
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:28.640
It's not easy to say, and I wish that I were a leader, I'm more of a follower when it comes to revolutions, but I've been studying a lot what the Black Panthers did, believe it or not, because their revolution was a whole system.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.240
And I guess all revolutions are.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:38.720
That's the one that, not all, but many revolutions are, but that's the one that I uh was closely studying because um of a book.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.960
They had an education system, uh, a way to distribute food.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:52.480
So it was not about, oh, let's go in the street and then like just canon fodder, you know, let's see what happens.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:00.720
No, it was really about creating an alternative that was solid also as an economy, so and as an ecosystem.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:12.640
So I think that maybe uh creating a parallel universe and all of a sudden doing it in a stealth way, and then all of a sudden we reveal ourselves and uh we're fine without you.
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.400
I mean, I don't know, you know what I'm saying?
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:16.000
It's and it's not anarchy at all.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.960
I'm talking about a system that has its own regulatory.
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:24.079
Also, I'm speaking in Scandinavia, in speaking in Denmark, it's completely a different situation.
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:28.960
But um, in many parts of the world, that would be a fantastic way.
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:42.000
But I I think that um at least in the United States, the uh that side of the fence is very flabbergasted right now, like deers in headlights.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.359
I'm hoping that a leader will come that I can follow.
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:47.839
Let's hope that some leaders are listening.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:55.119
Are there some areas within design, Paola, that you think are still overlooked?
00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:09.920
Well definitely in some parts of the world crafts are overlooked because they're not considered as worthy of being called design.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:15.759
Neither are they considered worthy of being called art, so they're falling through the cracks.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:20.000
This is very much connected to culture, so it depends on where you are.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.799
But um I remember that many years ago I was talking with Satyendra Pakale, you probably know him.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.960
He's a wonderful Indian designer that grew up in India, but then worked uh in the Netherlands.
00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:38.559
He was a Philips, he also studied in Germany, I think, so or in in the Netherlands too.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:50.640
Um so he was doing industrial design, but then going back to India and studying the lost wax process and using silicon instead of wax, so it would be more precise.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:56.960
So, in a way, really trying to bring back to life his tradition and bring bring it back to our century.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:12.799
But I remember him taking me around parts of India and being really vehement about the um the destiny of craftspeople in India that are not given, in his opinion, the respect that they deserve, right?
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.359
So that's really a political class issue.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:24.319
In a place like the United States, it's more of an intellectual and cultural hierarchy issue.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:33.920
But the truth is, crafts are the way that could really allow us to have a vision of design that is inclusive and universal.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:43.839
Because in many cases, it's women and people in the so-called third world that use crafts to produce their designed world.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:44.240
Why?
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.400
Because there are no industrial models, there are no industrial plants.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:55.200
And says who that industrial plants elevate objects to a higher uh, you know, to a higher stage.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:10.960
So we we're kind of like embroiled in the modern conceptualization of the design world and in the uh cultural hierarchy that sees art up there and then design, but industrial and modern there.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.559
So I find that um misunderstood or misplaced crafts for sure is.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:22.400
I could speak to you for a obvious seat, but I know you have other things to do here in Copenhagen.
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:37.759
If we look back in ten ten years' time, these are at least predicted, very kind of changing times we are in and going into in terms of technology, different uh interconnected crises, etc.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:46.799
What do you hope has changed in how we either perceive design or what we use design for?
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:52.799
You know, Moa is so bad at predicting the future I can predict the present, but not the future.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:59.920
But all I'm hoping for in ten years from now is that I can see designers being mayors.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.519
I mean, it's happened already in certain places like Curitiba.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:11.279
I see designers as being mayors, as being CEOs, I see m many more cheap design officers.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:22.880
I just um it's not really a matter of product, but it's a matter of status and uh respect given to design and understanding by the general populace of what design can offer.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.240
Thank you so much, Paula.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:24.559
Thank you.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.880
It's been a true pleasure having you here.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:27.920
Yeah, it's been fun.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:28.720
Thank you so much.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:34.400
I want to uh end this episode with giving you the last word.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:44.079
So it can be an advice, it can be whatever is kind of is in your heart of hearts that you would like to leave the listeners with.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.079
I know the situation is difficult right now.
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:54.799
I know many of you are going through really tough times and might feel down and depressed and understandably so.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:10.240
But if you can find your own vampire blood, you know, anywhere you can find it to give you a little boost, it's important now more than ever to set the basis for the future that we want to design.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:21.839
This podcast, hosted by Veronica D'Souza, was recorded live in Copenhagen during Three Days of Design 2026, Denmark's official design festival.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:23.279
Thanks for listening.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.359
See you in Copenhagen June 9th to 11th, 2027.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.319
I always say that I'm like a vampire.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:07.280
You know, when I feel down with what's going on in the world, I do a studio visit.
00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:09.839
If it's a bad studio visit, I get even worse.
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.199
But if it's a good studio visit, I can suck the blood in a sh.
00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:20.559
You are listening to What Shapes, a brand new podcast by Three Days of Design.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:24.480
Exploring how design can shape our world.
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:29.600
And we're kicking off this very first episode of the Design Rockstar.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:32.320
Our guest is Paula and Tony.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:38.560
Senior curator of architecture and design at the Museum of Modern Art in New York.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:43.840
And for more than three decades, Paula has explored what design can be.
00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:49.200
From objects to technology, ethics, culture, and humanity.
00:00:49.679 --> 00:01:00.799
Paula has been named one of the most influential design thinkers, one of the most powerful women in art, and one of the leading voices shaping contemporary culture today.
00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:06.719
My name is Veronica De Susa, and I have the great joy of being your host.
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.359
Welcome to What Shapes?
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:12.640
Thank you for having me, Veronica.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.120
It is my absolute pleasure.
00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.879
How did you fall in love with design?
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.519
By growing up in Milan.
00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:28.719
You know, it's um there hasn't been a moment, it was just part of life.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:37.599
So I I I was born in Sardinia, I grew up a little bit in Ferrara near Bologna, but then most of my life was in Milan, and my parents are from Milan.
00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:42.079
And in Milan, design is a natural part of everybody's life.
00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:56.319
So I remember when I used to go to my mom's hair salon, I would see, you know, there would be maybe Hello magazine or some other like Gen Gente, which is another general interest gossip magazine, and then there would be Domo San Abitare.
00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:01.760
So it was not something for people that were in design, it was for everybody.
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:11.280
So that kind of gave me a sense of discernment about design, uh, recognizing good design mostly.
00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.280
It took me a while to recognize bad design.
00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:14.400
It's funny, you know.
00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:28.639
It's sometimes you get you get educated naturally to recognize beauty and not the opposite of it, which might be laziness or you know, just like neglect, not really ugliness, but but that took longer.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:40.960
You said that good design is a renaissance attitude that combines technology, cognitive science, human need and beauty.
00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:59.439
And I think it's fair to say that in the more than three decades that you've spent kind of expanding the idea of what a design is from an object that has become widely recognized.
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:02.080
That is quite uh pioneering.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:04.639
You think so, huh?
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:10.159
Yeah, no, because I I feel that I've changed my mind at least a little bit.
00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:18.639
There was such an absolute statement, and there were a few concepts in it that are very questionable and should be toned down a bit.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:38.560
Not only the concept of beauty, but we can talk about it, but beauty is still in it's still understood in a certain way in the world, symmetry, there's a classical nature to it, and instead beauty can be punk and it can be profoundly ugly and still be beautiful, so uh needs a little nuance.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:48.080
What shaped that kind of expansive vision, that search for always investigating what design could be?
00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.360
Well, I think two two things.
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.560
One is that I've always revered journalism.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.599
So um might be out of time right now.
00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:03.919
Journalism is kind of like beleaguered, but I still really revere the idea of journalism.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:11.599
And I was working as a journalist, uh, yeah, I mean, amateur journalist when I was in my teens, you know, for newspapers in Milan.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:18.560
So that idea of reporting, of investigating, investigative reporting to me is just sacrosanct.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:23.279
And the second is that university that I went to, because it was such a mess.
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:30.319
You know, we were 15,000 students only in architecture, only in Milan, which meant that we didn't do anything practical.
00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.040
It was all theory because there was no place to do even to draw, even.
00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:43.439
So I got really strong um theoretical background, number one, and number two, there was no separation of design.
00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:52.160
So everything landscape design, urban planning, object design, graphic design, building design, everything was under the same roof.
00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.800
And uh it was part of the polytechnic, so also engineering fell together.
00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:05.120
So I I guess um there are some schools that teach you architecture as the love of buildings or design as the love of objects.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.480
And instead, I was in a very open-ended system.
00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:19.519
In many ways, you've you've contributed to continuously adding uh kind of adjacent fields to how we show design and what we understand as design.
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:26.160
Or has there been moments where you've been pushing for something that you call design, but that has met some kind of resistance?
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:31.360
It's never happened or it's always happened, depending on the context, right?
00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:35.360
When I'm amidst designers, they are elated.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:47.439
They just want to expand more and more and more because you know, the goal of designers is not only that of doing beautiful products, whatever their products are, but it's also to be used better.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:59.759
And to be used better means to be understood, respected, and involved also in the making of society in a more direct way, policy making and uh governor, governance and more.
00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.120
So when I'm with designers, it's never a problem.
00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:13.519
When I'm instead in more traditional uh artistic contexts, there's instead a lot of like protective reflex, right?
00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:18.480
It's a self-protecting, protective system that of art.
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:25.360
So they need to push you out as much as possible because they need to maintain the aura.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:36.480
And design is so powerful because it really has to do with everything that art has to do with, plus the reality check of having to produce something towards progress.
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.680
So that's where I sometimes get the pushback.
00:06:40.000 --> 00:07:01.920
Design is, in my opinion, an umbrella that gathers everything that has a goal that needs to be reached using the means at your disposal in the most elegant and sustainable and humane, and you can continue adding attributes way possible.
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:14.879
The materials can be wood or they can be code, or they can be bricks, or they can be mycelium, you know, and the scale varies depending on the context where you're working, but that's how I see it.
00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:16.319
All that is design.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:24.399
You talked about shifts before and kind of changing your perception uh which I guess is a healthy sign as a human being that we keep in mind.
00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:25.839
Definitely, yes.
00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:35.839
Um Do you have a few examples where you think that shifted that shifted your perception of how you view design?
00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:39.120
Well, let me think.
00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:45.120
Um it happened so many times that it's hard sometimes to pinpoint.
00:07:45.360 --> 00:08:01.120
First of all, I have to limit this gigantic definition of design, and I tend to limit it at uh something that involves at least one of the senses and that is meant to really be used by people and to go towards the progress of the world.
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:08.399
So I also consider scent a form of design, and in 2010 I I organized a whole symposium about it.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:21.360
Um but one of the biggest turning points to me was when I think it was 2013, there was the announcement of the 3D printing gun, 3D printed gun.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:39.840
I remember that I used to always talk about this concept of good design with capital G, capital D, which is a concept that was also purported by MoMA, you know, at the middle of the 20th century, this idea that you could educate the masses and elevate the masses through so-called good design.
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:43.039
So this idea that design is always for always for good.
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:56.399
I remember when the 3D printed um announcement happened, and I don't know if you remember, but the idea was to have this open source files that anybody could use to print a lethal gun pretty much at home.
00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.840
You could have it like a mediocre, you know, second-tier 3D printer.
00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:10.480
And it was published by Cody Wilson, who was this um um, well, he called himself a philosopher, like a libertarian in Texas.
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:14.320
Then he ended up going to jail for several other reasons.
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:25.519
But it was really shocking because all of a sudden, everything that I held dear, uh, progressive, new technology, advanced technology, design, open source, everything.
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.039
Descentralization.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.639
Yeah, everything, you know, just like everything was turned upside down.
00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:32.000
It was like for evil.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:38.480
So I started thinking of uh, I was telling you before I was not thinking of bad design, I started thinking about it.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:48.559
And you know, uh my great friend Alice Rosthorn has a lecture that she kind of updates every year about bad design, which I love.
00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.240
And you know, I was not thinking about it before.
00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.440
This is not even bad design, this is evil design.
00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:21.120
So I started this project with a colleague, Jaymer Hunt, about uh design and violence, and we looked for objects that have an ambiguous relationship with violence in society, ranging from the 3D printed gun to some prisons, especially in Scandinavia, that are almost like great leisure hotels, to the helmet to protect uh football players.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.120
So all of these objects that are good, yes, but also bad.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:48.720
You mentioned earlier that accessibility and kind of you know, that's also been a a shift of from the Renaissance era of saying top-down, uh, and that some of the the ways you look at design have shifted around that, and which I think is also you know clear from both design emergency and from a lot of the kind of later projects that you've been working on.
00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:57.840
So if you should uh and that's always difficult, but if you should have your your current Paola Antonelli definition of design.
00:10:58.480 --> 00:10:59.679
What does that sound like?
00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.279
It's still the same.
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.879
Um and that's the trick that I learned at school.
00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:09.840
If you have a definition that's abstract enough, then you can manipulate it, right?
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.440
So I don't change it, but then it encompasses everything.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.360
So it's between goals and means, right?
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:26.000
Something you have to achieve a goal and you use the means at your disposal in the most elegant, economical, you know, humane, sustainable, respectful, blah, blah, blah, blah way possible.
00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:42.320
So if you see, if you see it that way, you can really, really make it completely fully adaptable because all of a sudden the goal could be a collective goal and it could be established by many people as opposed to having one manufacturer or one family, you know.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:50.559
So it's uh it's almost like an equation, and the variables change every time, and uh and the outcome changes.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.639
So it's still the same definition.
00:11:54.799 --> 00:12:03.440
You've been consistently vocal about design not being neutral and that it has power.
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:13.440
So if you could direct that power, at least use this microphone to to speak your truth to the people listening.
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:22.639
What do you think are some of the most important things we should be focusing our design capabilities on right now?
00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:28.960
Right now it's about being political, not being lazy.
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:38.399
Um if that means if you're doing beautiful ceramics at home, do your ceramics and then go in the streets.
00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:51.200
If instead your design is already involved in public, just speak up and speak up not for a party or just for the sake of speaking up.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:57.440
Find your own ideals and goals and fight for them through your design, also.
00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:03.200
I believe that designers could be better used because you know our nature is intrinsically constructive.
00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:19.360
We try to not really solving problems, that's such a reductive uh way to think of design, but we have a good way of analyzing and setting the problem in front of us in a way that can also bring in other people to collaborate, right?
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:26.080
So we can we build teams, we are good at setting up the problem so that it can be tackled.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.200
And that's we should be used better, you know.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:33.440
That's what I really want to want for us.
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.759
And another thing that I want for us is for us to be paid all the time.
00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:42.879
Um, we have to train the world to the fact that intellectual labor is labor.
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:48.320
If you get asked for an internship or for a lecture for a panel, demand to be paid.
00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:58.240
It can be a few, you know, kroner or a few euros, but people must understand that intellectual labor is not uh ethereal.
00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.840
You still have to be paid just like the electricians and the caterers are paid.
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:21.279
So these two things that we have to work on is re-establishing intellectual labor as labor in society and trying to get involved in the mechanisms that create policies and create governance so that we have a say and we're not just passive observers.
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.879
I think power is incredibly interesting.
00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:35.679
Um and I think design has not been attributed enough power, I think when you when you think about the field in comparison to how powerful it can be.
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.039
How is it for you in your role?
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:52.000
Whereas, you know getting into MoMA, I guess, can kind of make a break, or not break, but it can make uh at least direct attention uh to someone or a purpose.
00:14:52.320 --> 00:15:01.200
How do you personally kind of deal with that both privilege but also responsibility of making those choices?
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:03.840
And what are some of the hardest dilemmas?
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.320
I feel very comfortable with that power.
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:12.879
I wanted it and I have it, and I don't think that anybody really gives you power, you take it.
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:32.240
And and believe that making my way to MOMA, which was kind of haphazard because it was an ad in a magazine, was my way to take that power, and now that I have it, I just look for people that have that power within them through their work.
00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:38.080
I mean, you sound like you're equally curious and equally excited as when you started out continuously.
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.840
Yeah, no, it hasn't gone down at all.
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:49.440
And you know, I I am uh sometimes I am delighted by somebody that says, we've we've made too much, there's too much in the world, let me subtract.
00:15:49.519 --> 00:16:03.440
I mean, to me, conceptually, um I always I always like compare the goal or the idea with how the person has gotten there and how difficult it was and what was lost along the way.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:15.840
So if the design subject is how to eliminate 80% of the couches that exist in the world and recycle them, I'm like, I'm all for it, right?
00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:22.320
But there's never ever shortage of great design ideas.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:24.799
So I'll gone forever.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.919
Is there something that you're particularly curious about now?
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:44.080
I mean, I'm thinking that if we all try to just travel a little bit into the mind of Palantunelli, what what is occupying you maybe of themes or things that are happening in the world, or whereabouts are you kind of throwing your antennas?
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:46.320
Many, many, many, many.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:52.799
So on the one hand, while you were talking and asking me this question, the first thing that I thought about was energy.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:02.720
I'm very curious to understand more about the Mini nuclear plants, and uh, because I've always been interested in nuclear energy and in energy in general.
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:11.279
Um, so I've been trying to study to understand what that means and also how batteries will be in the future on the one hand.
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:25.920
On the other hand, I'm very interested in our political inertia, and uh I would like to understand how we can all rise up to stand up to bullies, which we're not doing enough right now.
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.200
Uh so I'm I mean, I can I can go on forever.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:36.799
Luckily, I have an outlet for all these themes because I run these salons at MoMA that are called MoMA RD salons.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.240
The idea is that you can use a museum as the RD of society.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.799
We are at number 59, so you can tell.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.720
We haven't done one on nuclear yet, and we're gonna do one on lazy, you know, this month.
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:54.160
So every time, and we did one called The Age of the Bully, like two years ago.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.680
So all of these different topics come to mind when it comes to the design field.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:07.920
When I'm really looking into are two topics, you know, and they're both the subject, three actually, they're all subjects of an exhibition.
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:09.119
What are you seeing?
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:10.799
What is occupying you?
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.240
How do you think we can use design as resistance?
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:28.640
It's not easy to say, and I wish that I were a leader, I'm more of a follower when it comes to revolutions, but I've been studying a lot what the Black Panthers did, believe it or not, because their revolution was a whole system.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.240
And I guess all revolutions are.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:38.720
That's the one that, not all, but many revolutions are, but that's the one that I uh was closely studying because um of a book.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.960
They had an education system, uh, a way to distribute food.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:52.480
So it was not about, oh, let's go in the street and then like just canon fodder, you know, let's see what happens.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:00.720
No, it was really about creating an alternative that was solid also as an economy, so and as an ecosystem.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:12.640
So I think that maybe uh creating a parallel universe and all of a sudden doing it in a stealth way, and then all of a sudden we reveal ourselves and uh we're fine without you.
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.400
I mean, I don't know, you know what I'm saying?
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:16.000
It's and it's not anarchy at all.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.960
I'm talking about a system that has its own regulatory.
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:24.079
Also, I'm speaking in Scandinavia, in speaking in Denmark, it's completely a different situation.
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:28.960
But um, in many parts of the world, that would be a fantastic way.
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:42.000
But I I think that um at least in the United States, the uh that side of the fence is very flabbergasted right now, like deers in headlights.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.359
I'm hoping that a leader will come that I can follow.
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:47.839
Let's hope that some leaders are listening.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:55.119
Are there some areas within design, Paola, that you think are still overlooked?
00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:09.920
Well definitely in some parts of the world crafts are overlooked because they're not considered as worthy of being called design.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:15.759
Neither are they considered worthy of being called art, so they're falling through the cracks.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:20.000
This is very much connected to culture, so it depends on where you are.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.799
But um I remember that many years ago I was talking with Satyendra Pakale, you probably know him.
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.960
He's a wonderful Indian designer that grew up in India, but then worked uh in the Netherlands.
00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:38.559
He was a Philips, he also studied in Germany, I think, so or in in the Netherlands too.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:50.640
Um so he was doing industrial design, but then going back to India and studying the lost wax process and using silicon instead of wax, so it would be more precise.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:56.960
So, in a way, really trying to bring back to life his tradition and bring bring it back to our century.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:12.799
But I remember him taking me around parts of India and being really vehement about the um the destiny of craftspeople in India that are not given, in his opinion, the respect that they deserve, right?
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.359
So that's really a political class issue.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:24.319
In a place like the United States, it's more of an intellectual and cultural hierarchy issue.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:33.920
But the truth is, crafts are the way that could really allow us to have a vision of design that is inclusive and universal.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:43.839
Because in many cases, it's women and people in the so-called third world that use crafts to produce their designed world.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:44.240
Why?
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.400
Because there are no industrial models, there are no industrial plants.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:55.200
And says who that industrial plants elevate objects to a higher uh, you know, to a higher stage.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:10.960
So we we're kind of like embroiled in the modern conceptualization of the design world and in the uh cultural hierarchy that sees art up there and then design, but industrial and modern there.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.559
So I find that um misunderstood or misplaced crafts for sure is.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:22.400
I could speak to you for a obvious seat, but I know you have other things to do here in Copenhagen.
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:37.759
If we look back in ten ten years' time, these are at least predicted, very kind of changing times we are in and going into in terms of technology, different uh interconnected crises, etc.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:46.799
What do you hope has changed in how we either perceive design or what we use design for?
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:52.799
You know, Moa is so bad at predicting the future I can predict the present, but not the future.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:59.920
But all I'm hoping for in ten years from now is that I can see designers being mayors.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.519
I mean, it's happened already in certain places like Curitiba.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:11.279
I see designers as being mayors, as being CEOs, I see m many more cheap design officers.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:22.880
I just um it's not really a matter of product, but it's a matter of status and uh respect given to design and understanding by the general populace of what design can offer.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.240
Thank you so much, Paula.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:24.559
Thank you.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.880
It's been a true pleasure having you here.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:27.920
Yeah, it's been fun.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:28.720
Thank you so much.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:34.400
I want to uh end this episode with giving you the last word.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:44.079
So it can be an advice, it can be whatever is kind of is in your heart of hearts that you would like to leave the listeners with.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.079
I know the situation is difficult right now.
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:54.799
I know many of you are going through really tough times and might feel down and depressed and understandably so.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:10.240
But if you can find your own vampire blood, you know, anywhere you can find it to give you a little boost, it's important now more than ever to set the basis for the future that we want to design.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:21.839
This podcast, hosted by Veronica D'Souza, was recorded live in Copenhagen during Three Days of Design 2026, Denmark's official design festival.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:23.279
Thanks for listening.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.359
See you in Copenhagen June 9th to 11th, 2027.
