WEBVTT
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Daniel, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
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I wanted to start before we get into this and I, I just kind of mentioned this before we started recording, but I, I wanted people to hear it too.
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to hear
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I've been attending your summits and been on your newsletter for
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for
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time.
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So it is very cool to be here chatting with you.
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with you.
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you so much.
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Yeah.
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I really appreciate it.
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And looking forward to, to, to sharing some
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So we're, we're gonna, we're gonna dive right in here.
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We got a lot to share, which I, I'm really excited about.
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But first, before we do, I, I'd love to have you just kind of give a quick overview of, of who you are, what you're working on.
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Thank you so much.
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Yeah.
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Hi everybody.
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I am a fiction writing teacher.
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I created a system of writing called the Character First Writing Approach people in a range of different genres and styles and goals to get back to their original love of storytelling to.
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Try to think through and, and plot the way their readers read.
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And so the whole process feels hopefully a lot more natural and organic than some of the paths you will take when they try to learn how to be a better storyteller, be a better plotter.
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Yeah.
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I'm also the host of Escape the Plot Forest an annual summit, which I think we're gonna talk about this event, this, this, this session.
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Thank you so much.
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and that's just an amazing event that I started several years ago.
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Not knowing what it would turn into, and I'm, I'm very grateful that I've built up this community of people who keep coming back and it's been fantastic.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah.
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What a, what a great quick overview
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overview
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here.
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So, so let's talk a little bit about Escape the Plot Forest Summit.
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Tell us the, the dates, times, like the details on that.
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Great.
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So the event starts on the 18th of October, so it's coming
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Yeah,
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It is five days.
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It's almost 40 speakers.
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I.
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And we have our opening happy hours.
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I teach a three part class during the middle days, which is always a lot of fun.
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Teach that live.
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I kind of watch what everyone's talking about, things that seem to be confusing people, then I try to construct some live classes to, to deliver that.
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It's always a bit of a high wire Sometimes it doesn't completely land.
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Some my best sessions have come out of that.
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I did a whole session about eye color that made people very
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Oh wow.
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I have, of the opinion that eye color can spend, can take up too much time in a story, and we can have less, we can have fewer eye colors unless there's some kind of magical reason why people's eyes are important.
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The event is totally free if you could show up and attend live.
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So if you can watch the whole thing with a notepad and a cup of coffee, you can watch the whole thing five days.
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It's, it's a very substantial craft education, and I try to get all my speakers to speak longer than they often do at events like this.
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Really, that's my, one of my few secret sources is just to keep asking questions.
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But the end result is that.
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Over these five days, you get a really detailed and, and profound education in, in storytelling, in plotting, and, and this year we've got a lot of non-fiction sessions too,
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Oh, very cool.
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but you can also upgrade to get the paid pass.
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I didn't invent this model, by the way.
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It's a well-known way of designing this kind of online event.
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But you get the replay access, you get a bunch of other bonuses, and I made a little mini course this
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Oh, cool.
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Start Your Story in the Right Place.
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And people who sign up for the PayPal get that for
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Very cool.
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it's a nice little bonus.
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I think that's, that's, that's, that's the key information.
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We have a really great and part of the reason why we have a great community is that we have a, a very firmly applied code of conduct, and I feel really lucky that.
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It was really the attendees that started pointing out to me what I kept talking about.
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And they'd say, Daniel, you need to write this down.
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Like this keeps coming up at different events.
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You're sort of explaining bits of it problems emerge.
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Let's get it written down.
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I thought that is a very sensible idea.
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as with many things in the event, I, I feel like I am a collaborator or maybe even a follower to the people who keep coming back and just trying to make the event, event worthy of them.
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Hmm.
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Yeah, I, I love that.
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And I, I think too, like for people who are listening,
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who are
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You know, I, I
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I
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into the, the, the VIP I've used the replays.
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I'm somebody who's, who's got a busy, busy life and it's, but it's worth it to me.
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There's so much great content and, you know, watching live is great, but being able to go back and even like, grab sessions and rewatch'em.
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Is so helpful.
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And it, it's, it's so worth it.
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So any, anyone who's interested, definitely check this out.
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I, I would recommend the, doing the, the VIP getting the, the replays because.
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The reality is, you know, it's, it's so much content that it's really hard to consume it all, all at once across five days.
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And it's a wonderful, like it is something that it, I think it's great that you put it on for free for people who can who can make the time.
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I think that's just a great way of adding access to, to things.
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I think.
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That's wonderful.
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So thank you for all the work that you do.
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I, I've done many versions of this.
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I have a, I have a community that I run and I've done like very small sessions and like, it's like with.
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With like 15 people.
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Like, I can't imagine what you're doing with, with as many people as you get to these summits.
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So it's very cool.
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And, and I know as, as a writer, I can, I can speak for, for a lot of writers and say like, I do appreciate, really do appreciate the hard work that goes into that.
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Thank you
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Of course.
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So,
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course.
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tell me a little bit about why you think these events are so important for writers to participate in.
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Well, I got two reasons, and you know, I don't think they're gonna be particularly unique or surprising things, but I think they're worth saying.
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The first is, I think that many writers, even the people who come to classes, listen to craft of writing podcasts, go to events.
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We still have this little voice in our, in our heads that says.
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You should just be able to do this by yourself.
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You should just be able to just write.
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your backside in the chair and just make the stories come out.
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I think that while that is, is worth listening to that advice, and sometimes you do just have to sit in the chair and, and make the story come out.
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I, I totally accept that.
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But that learning the craft learning skills and, and just hearing things afresh is so valuable to writers.
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You are competing with people who either have been doing this for a really long time.
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access to great professional editors in their publishing houses, or in some cases were writing since they were very small children.
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And so by the time they were 18, they had solved a whole bunch of problems that you now as an adult are trying to figure out with your busy life.
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And it's really okay to say to yourself, I just need to listen to different kinds of plotting advice from different teachers, some of it is gonna hit me in a way that I'm not expecting Suddenly that.
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Odd element or that thing I keep hearing about will make sense.
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And in my experience, it's very difficult to predict what that is gonna be.
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just to be clear, like I listened to most of the event before it happens because I prerecord stuff.
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Mm-hmm.
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And it's not like I'm sitting there thinking, oh yeah, here we go again.
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You know, three act structure, hero's journey.
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I mean would be a very, a very sad session.
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Frequently what I'm hearing is like.
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never thought of it that way.
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That's a really nice way of putting it.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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And when I'm sitting there in the, in the video looking like I'm impressed by the speaker I am, I'm like, oh, that's really clever.
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so I think that's really important, like just getting the training and it's, it's right there.
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Five days.
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You just need to ignore your cat for a bit you know, apologize to your children and you can have a huge amount of craft education in a really small amount of
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Yeah.
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The second one is that life for many of us conspires to make us feel like our writing isn't that important.
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If you have, if you already have a huge book deal and this, and the agent is screaming at you to get the next book out, that might be different.
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But for many of us, we are feeling like we publish a book.
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It's hard to find people to read it.
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We're trying.
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We're trying.
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We're getting into book to draft three.
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Is anyone actually out there?
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It's so powerful to be in a place for basically a week where you are surrounded by people who agree that what you're doing is important they are supportive and actively looking for fellow writers to allies with, to be friends with, to, to, to support each other and to see perhaps, you know, your next mentor at the event.
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For some people, you know, I hope that'll be me.
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But there's, it is very possible that you'll see someone at the event that suits you better, that speaks in a way, or is writing the kind of books or advises the kind of writer that you want to be.
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And that, that's fantastic.
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I think that's, I think trying to do it all alone with the pressure that the world put us, puts us all under you know, it's
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I love that.
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I, I think it's such an important message for people to hear.
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And I think you're right, like listening, you know, I always tell people like, if you're here and you're listening to this, like you're doing the good work, but like, this is the next step, right?
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Like going to a summit, going, going to a conference, doing you know, that type of work is the next step on in, in your writing journey.
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And if you wanna take this seriously it's just the things that, that kind of come with the territory.
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You know, it'd be like anything else, right?
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Anything else you wanna do that you wanna do?
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Well.
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You, you have to do it the right way.
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So let's, let's talk plot a little bit.
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I, I would love to pick your brain, especially now realizing that you've probably done or listened to a few of these sessions.
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You probably have even more ideas on plot than you had maybe a month ago or two months ago.
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So what, what are your, if you could give like three of your favorite tips or tricks for developing plot, what do you think those would be?
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That's a great question.
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the, the, the first thing I, I often teach and I talk to people about, and this is one part of character first writing.
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And it's, it's part, it's the part that a lot of people remember because it's, it's, it's about the beginning, so it's kind of easy to remember.
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This part I think that it's, it's really good in a novel to try to get a character doing something really before page one.
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And I think that, you know, I, for say the thriller adjacent genre, police pro, the police investigating the crime genre.
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I think that's why you see so many.
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Stories where it's like the police officers or detective's last case, or they're about to move to a smaller town and have an easier life.
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And that that's not just character flavor, that's not just a sort of interesting wrinkle put on the character, like saying, this person's in motion.
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And so as they try and pursue their original goal, or they try to pursue like what they think the story is and the story pressures them to say there's actually something bigger.
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Here.
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You are actually being traced, chased by a serial killer.
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There is actually a conspiracy in the town, in the city hall.
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The, the heroes resistance to that reality tells the reader that that reality is real.
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And I find that trying to do instead the story where like.
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A person just living their life or doing their job and stuff just happens to them.
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I think that works a lot better in a film where you've got an actor looking really charismatic and smiling and you know, George Clooney's like frying some eggs on it in the kitchen.
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I watch that.
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But when it's your book, you don't have George Clooney to, to do the.
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To do those lines like you, you just got a voice in someone's head.
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And so I think that's a really good way of, of getting started.
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Does that make sense?
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Is that
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Yeah, it totally does.
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And it's funny, I've long suspected that the Save the Cat method, especially for certain genres, I think for certain genres it works better than others.
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But I think for, for the thriller and thriller adjacent genres.
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It's really hard to start like slice of life.
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Like it's, unless your character, their slice of life is inherently dynamic for readers, right?
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Like you could, you could potentially pull off a police procedural day in the life if they're like, their day in the life is like chasing a somebody down, right?
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Like that, that works then.
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But I think day in the life.
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It, it just doesn't work in every genre.
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Even though I think Save the Cat is great in a lot of things.
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I know a lot of people use it.
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I know a lot of people love it, and, and I use it and I understand it, and I, I, I do adhere to it to a certain degree.
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But at the same time, like in this genre, like you're mentioning, like it is really hard to grab a reader's attention on page one.
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If your character's day-to-day life isn't particularly dynamic.
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Is that kind of what you're saying here?
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Yeah, I mean, I think, you know.
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I love save the cat method too.
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Yeah.
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it's great.
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think that like to the character, what's happening on page one should be really important.
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Hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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It might be small, it might be small stakes.
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It might be, you know, not answered my call about going out on a date.
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It might be my friend won't come round to gimme that dancing lesson that she promised you would.
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But I think that it needs to be something that feels real and vivid, that gets the character agonizing about things, hoping for things, maybe even doing something.
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I think that it, when you start there, I think the misunderstanding people have of everyday life.
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Is that people think the story begins in like page five when the everyday life part is over.
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I'm just confident about this.
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You don't have until page five.
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Maybe you had it until page five back in the Victorian era, but you definitely don't have until page five
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Yeah.
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And I, I, I frequently talk to writers and their, their confidence in their reader staggers me when they say things like, well.
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You know, the story will really kick off from page 15 or, or even like the 25%
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Yeah.
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just like, that's not how this
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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And when I think of the books I really like, they frequently have a wonderful first page.
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The character is, even if it is subtle, it doesn't need to, I don't, I'm not, also not a bleak big believer and like a huge fight scene on
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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I think that frequently falls flat, but that.
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The character is in motion.
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Something happened to them in page minus one or page minus 10 that we don't get to see, but they are bothered.
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And, and from there, I think you can start to build.
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You know, not only can you start to build up an interesting of plot, but it also starts to hint to you about a whole bunch of other things that should be happening later in the story in the middle.
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Towards the end, and I think you just follow those thoughts to their destination.
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You get some really interesting points, but that, that's my
00:15:31.803 --> 00:15:32.073
Cool.
00:15:32.073 --> 00:15:32.913
that's kinda my first idea.
00:15:32.913 --> 00:15:33.123
Is that
00:15:33.274 --> 00:15:33.988
Yeah, that's beautiful.
00:15:33.988 --> 00:15:34.428
Let's go to.
00:15:34.683 --> 00:15:35.793
Let's go to, let's go to number two.
00:15:35.793 --> 00:15:36.543
What do you got for this?
00:15:36.753 --> 00:15:48.723
So, I don't know if this is about plotting, but one of the things I see people do a lot is that they will introduce a character, main character early on, and we'll get to see the character doing things.
00:15:48.993 --> 00:15:51.513
Maybe some of this everyday life stuff that we've talked about.
00:15:52.218 --> 00:15:58.578
It's already great, but then as the story goes on, it's as if we get more and more distant from that character.
00:15:59.328 --> 00:16:06.019
It's like the we, we, as soon as you'll like, you'll be reading a manuscript say, and you'll turn the page and they'll just be like, dialogue the whole page.
00:16:06.798 --> 00:16:09.708
And there are some people that can make that work.
00:16:09.769 --> 00:16:11.418
I don't know Elmore Leonard who probably do
00:16:11.533 --> 00:16:11.753
Hmm.
00:16:12.318 --> 00:16:13.968
but I find that in most cases.
00:16:15.288 --> 00:16:24.883
As the main character's, thoughts and feelings, and even sort of heart to heart conversations with someone else where they reflect on what's happening as that shrinks through the story.
00:16:26.073 --> 00:16:33.243
The reader starts to feel and further away from what's going on, and at times cannot even understand what is happening.
00:16:34.053 --> 00:16:41.133
Someone will say something really mean to the protagonist, and then there's just another line of dialogue and the reader is thinking, was that mean?
00:16:41.853 --> 00:16:42.963
Did I misread that?
00:16:43.203 --> 00:16:45.243
Because the character doesn't seem to have reacted to it.
00:16:46.144 --> 00:16:51.063
And I think that many writers get into the kind of zone where they're like, well, of course the character reacted.
00:16:51.063 --> 00:16:51.783
I felt it.
00:16:52.758 --> 00:17:07.729
it's hard to sort of re bring us off back and say, try and get, like, every time this character is pushed, startled, I mean pushed like emotionally and physically and anything that happens to the character, that would be like a thing, would be a moment.
00:17:07.788 --> 00:17:09.919
Let's get like a reaction on the page.
00:17:11.088 --> 00:17:20.568
And the thing I I, I tell people all the time is if you overdo that stuff in the first draft, anybody.
00:17:21.378 --> 00:17:25.469
Your your best friend Bob, editor friends of the Writing Workshop.
00:17:25.769 --> 00:17:29.219
Anybody can read that draft and tell you what to cut?
00:17:30.088 --> 00:17:30.328
Yeah.
00:17:30.328 --> 00:17:31.798
You laid it on a bit thick here.
00:17:31.798 --> 00:17:32.459
Yeah, I got it.
00:17:32.459 --> 00:17:36.058
I got it after the third, the third par sentence of that introspection.
00:17:37.814 --> 00:17:46.574
They can tell you how to remove that stuff and trim it down, almost nobody can tell you how to do the reverse if it's just opaque and nobody understands what's happening.
00:17:46.874 --> 00:17:49.124
Character's going through a bunch of scenes, things are happening.
00:17:49.213 --> 00:17:50.263
A lot of stuff is going on.
00:17:50.534 --> 00:17:52.004
Character doesn't seem to be reacting well.
00:17:52.004 --> 00:17:56.054
They can't tell you what should be on the page because it's not their character.
00:17:56.354 --> 00:18:03.284
You have to get a really good editor at that point who can like get into the story and on an emotional level, understand story structure.
00:18:03.739 --> 00:18:06.739
Understands all kinds of things and that they can start filling it in
00:18:06.994 --> 00:18:07.413
Mm-hmm.
00:18:07.639 --> 00:18:08.899
You should have reacted here.
00:18:08.929 --> 00:18:10.068
Actually, that was a big deal.
00:18:10.068 --> 00:18:11.269
Remember that thing on page 20?
00:18:11.989 --> 00:18:13.099
They would've remembered that.
00:18:13.369 --> 00:18:20.019
That's hard and hard to find someone like that and it's, often kind of expensive to hire someone to do that for you.
00:18:20.499 --> 00:18:23.889
So I always tell people like, lay that stuff on thick.
00:18:23.889 --> 00:18:25.629
Stay close to the character.
00:18:26.499 --> 00:18:29.499
are not writing, most of us are not writing.
00:18:30.964 --> 00:18:44.614
British Victorian novels or American Harlem Renaissance novels where there is like a narrator who is guiding us through the story telling us right and wrong, steering us to understand what is we are supposed to be taking from the story.
00:18:45.403 --> 00:18:52.394
If you're writing that kind of book, this advice is less relevant, I don't know anybody tr very few people are trying to write that kind of
00:18:52.589 --> 00:18:52.879
Yeah.
00:18:52.933 --> 00:18:56.054
so instead, the only guide we have is our.
00:18:56.349 --> 00:18:57.788
Small number of main characters.
00:18:57.788 --> 00:19:04.706
And so I say, let's get that character talking, sharing thoughts, illuminating this story for us, or people just get lost.
00:19:04.726 --> 00:19:05.026
Yeah.
00:19:05.026 --> 00:19:05.536
I love that.
00:19:05.596 --> 00:19:06.135
I, I,
00:19:06.176 --> 00:19:06.385
I,
00:19:06.496 --> 00:19:11.865
to bring it back to, to this genre and the, and these, you know, thriller suspense, crime fiction.
00:19:11.865 --> 00:19:13.336
I feel like a lot of people think
00:19:13.556 --> 00:19:13.885
think
00:19:14.086 --> 00:19:15.166
a lot about their plot
00:19:15.206 --> 00:19:15.296
their
00:19:15.466 --> 00:19:16.395
and like, rightfully so.
00:19:16.395 --> 00:19:19.456
You're kind of, there's some requirements when it comes to plot.
00:19:19.456 --> 00:19:22.576
You gotta twist, you gotta have twists, you gotta have turns, you gotta have an antagonist.
00:19:22.576 --> 00:19:23.806
You gotta have all of these things.
00:19:23.956 --> 00:19:25.486
And I think that that takes up a lot of space.
00:19:25.510 --> 00:19:37.811
And when we're thinking of thriller writers and who are sitting down and writing and when, I think that a lot of writers that, that I work with, and a lot of writers that I talk to, my, myself included, we get so caught up in the plot that we forget the character of it.
00:19:37.811 --> 00:19:44.081
So like we are, we're like getting to the next plot point, getting to the next plot point, and our characters end up just like pieces on the board.
00:19:44.331 --> 00:19:47.000
And, and I think that that's a, a really great point.
00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.480
To make, and I think it does align with plot be for that reason, right?
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:57.020
Because like your plot then becomes the whole story, but that's your, your plot's not the story, the character's the story, right?
00:19:57.020 --> 00:20:02.520
And so I think what, what a, what a really valuable lesson for people to, to hear as they're, as they're listening to this.
00:20:02.881 --> 00:20:03.361
Very cool.
00:20:03.391 --> 00:20:04.020
Let's do number three.
00:20:04.641 --> 00:20:04.750
Okay.
00:20:06.131 --> 00:20:15.101
And this one may require the thriller writer to adapt a bit, but something I think a lot about, and this is you know, a another kinda character.
00:20:15.101 --> 00:20:18.401
First idea is about the midpoint of the story.
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:26.861
And I read as I read more novels, but contemporary novels, I feel like the midpoint is becoming like a really important thing.
00:20:26.891 --> 00:20:28.480
Like I can even remember novels.
00:20:29.101 --> 00:20:45.211
Doesn't really have a very significant 75% mark despite what all the plotting advice tells you you're supposed to have I can't really remember exactly what happened at the 75% mark, but I can absolutely remember the midpoint, something big happened, some kind of big, big reveal.
00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:55.801
I think that a lot of writing advice of genre independent writing advice, talks about sort of just like a.
00:20:56.881 --> 00:21:05.221
A shift may be in the protagonist's interests, like they go from being passive to active or or disengaged to engaged.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.760
And I think that kind of advice is good, but I encourage writers to be like.
00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:14.471
A bit hard on their protagonist.
00:21:14.471 --> 00:21:28.750
And again, like in a thriller genre, you might have to adjust this a bit, but I like to think about a midpoint as being something like a knot that closes around the protagonist that they can't get out.
00:21:28.801 --> 00:21:35.510
At this point they are somehow stuck in the story, and that might be in a very character driven story.
00:21:35.811 --> 00:21:39.951
They go from not wanting to do the thing to wanting to do the thing that that could work.
00:21:40.791 --> 00:21:47.631
But in other stories there's an amazing novel Jade City fondly where in Jade City th.
00:21:48.531 --> 00:21:59.841
I, I'm gonna slightly give someone important dies at the halfway point, and everyone else's role is suddenly transformed, but they can't leave now because it's a crisis it's a great midpoint shift.
00:21:59.871 --> 00:22:00.651
It doesn't, yes.
00:22:00.651 --> 00:22:03.141
On one level it just sort of shake, shakes things up.
00:22:03.411 --> 00:22:07.131
But on a deeper level, it forces these characters to now be in the story.
00:22:07.461 --> 00:22:10.281
They're no longer just watching other people take charge.
00:22:10.281 --> 00:22:12.291
They now have to decide what to do.
00:22:13.201 --> 00:22:21.000
And the, the example I love to give,'cause I just think it is so brilliant, This is the midpoint of the fellowship of the Ring by token.
00:22:22.561 --> 00:22:26.911
And I think that is just such a fantastic example of like what a midpoint can be.
00:22:27.181 --> 00:22:34.730
And if you, if you, just to recap the book, In the fellowship of the ring Froto is given the ring.
00:22:34.791 --> 00:22:40.281
He's told he's gotta go on this journey and he decides, well, I dunno where to go, so why not just go and visit Bilbo?
00:22:40.311 --> 00:22:43.941
My old, my old friend father figure, let's go see Bilbo.
00:22:44.661 --> 00:22:50.391
He spends the first half of the book trying to get to, to Bilbo on the way he discovers he's being hunted.
00:22:50.571 --> 00:22:53.270
He's not strong enough to, to fight off these people.
00:22:53.331 --> 00:22:55.371
They are basically hounding him to death.
00:22:56.421 --> 00:23:02.301
He survives just by, you know, almost, almost is killed, brought back to life.
00:23:02.401 --> 00:23:13.951
He and, and by at Aaron's house and he gets to finally see but Bilbo and he realizes that they cannot spend time together because he looks at Bilbo and is disgusted by him.
00:23:14.641 --> 00:23:21.750
He sees his bilbo's desire for the ring that he now has, and he realizes that he will not let bilbo see or touch the
00:23:21.776 --> 00:23:21.855
Hmm.
00:23:22.711 --> 00:23:24.781
And so now he's stuck in the story.
00:23:25.141 --> 00:23:26.730
He cannot let go of the ring.
00:23:27.421 --> 00:23:29.191
cannot be, he cannot let go of the ring.
00:23:29.221 --> 00:23:30.990
'cause he's, he's also now obsessed by it.
00:23:31.321 --> 00:23:36.661
He cannot just be sort of calm and relaxed and chill because he's being haunted by it.
00:23:36.661 --> 00:23:38.641
And he gotta get away from bilbo somehow.
00:23:39.391 --> 00:23:41.760
And he, he's not safe because he's being hunted.
00:23:42.571 --> 00:23:54.571
And so it's not like, you know, I realize if you're doing a thriller where it's just like someone from the outside is, is trying to chase your character down, I understand that might require a bit of adjustment, but I think it's such a great model.
00:23:54.571 --> 00:23:57.541
So it's saying to the reader, what's this person gonna do
00:23:57.791 --> 00:23:57.871
Hmm.
00:23:58.351 --> 00:24:00.961
And I think that's a really good way of thinking about the middle of a story.
00:24:01.605 --> 00:24:02.476
I, I love that.
00:24:02.476 --> 00:24:08.406
I love that thought process around kind of a, a shift away from, I think in, in thrillers.
00:24:08.406 --> 00:24:15.256
And, and to your point, I think a lot of people, when they write thrillers and talking to a lot of thriller writers, they have, they tend to have that opening scene.
00:24:15.286 --> 00:24:16.456
They tend to have.
00:24:17.010 --> 00:24:23.881
That 75 to a hundred percent mark, like people tend to feel really good about those sections of their novels.
00:24:24.421 --> 00:24:34.456
And then it's that midpoint and, and I'm wondering if, if this to some degree is, is adaptable and, and would help a lot of writers in this genre because that's what I see.
00:24:34.456 --> 00:24:35.176
I see that all the time.
00:24:35.176 --> 00:24:35.916
I see writers who are like.
00:24:36.436 --> 00:24:38.145
I know exactly how this is gonna end.
00:24:38.145 --> 00:24:39.105
I know who the killer is.
00:24:39.105 --> 00:24:40.096
I know what it's gonna look like.
00:24:40.096 --> 00:24:42.105
I know, you know, that's 75%.
00:24:42.105 --> 00:24:44.326
I know, like the climax, the whole thing all the way through.
00:24:44.716 --> 00:24:51.286
And I know what my opening couple of scenes are and then they get caught in this like where like the stakes don't change for the character.
00:24:51.286 --> 00:24:53.416
It's just like more things happening.
00:24:53.421 --> 00:24:53.431
But,
00:24:53.635 --> 00:24:53.846
Oh,
00:24:53.865 --> 00:24:56.566
but no, no kind of increase intention.
00:24:56.566 --> 00:24:59.996
And I'm wondering, you know, this, this might work really well in these genres.
00:25:00.046 --> 00:25:05.355
So Daniel, my, my last question for you is really just around kind of what, what's next for you.
00:25:05.355 --> 00:25:11.486
So if people are listening to this, hopefully they're listening to it early, they're, they're getting in the summit, they're, they're joining escape the, the plot for us.
00:25:11.486 --> 00:25:16.186
But beyond that, you know, people are listening to this a little bit later or they want to keep in contact with you.
00:25:16.186 --> 00:25:18.046
Like, what, what do you got coming up next for you?
00:25:18.966 --> 00:25:21.066
am, I love to teach.
00:25:21.246 --> 00:25:24.276
I come up with this stuff, new stuff all the time.
00:25:24.456 --> 00:25:25.956
I'm constantly thinking of ways to.
00:25:26.645 --> 00:25:27.756
Reach the next writer.
00:25:28.656 --> 00:25:33.605
And on a very practical note, I have the next summit coming up in March, 2026.
00:25:33.605 --> 00:25:35.226
It's called Perfect Your Process.
00:25:35.226 --> 00:25:41.676
It's a writing process and lifestyle and Life and Writing Habits event that's coming up in March.
00:25:42.576 --> 00:25:54.365
And I have a range of, when I'm not doing my summits, I have a range of courses, some for free, some, I have a group coaching program called The Residency that's really popular and so I'm always.
00:25:55.101 --> 00:25:58.272
Eager to meet new writers and see if the way I teach is useful to
00:26:00.345 --> 00:26:00.674
Nice.
00:26:00.674 --> 00:26:02.475
And so where, where can people find you?
00:26:02.505 --> 00:26:05.445
Where can people look you up if they're, if they're listening to this and they wanna find you?
00:26:05.505 --> 00:26:06.015
wanna find you?
00:26:06.345 --> 00:26:16.185
The best way is to go to my website, Daniel David wallace.com take a look around, the free call, sign up, and then I'll be in touch with my email list.
00:26:16.215 --> 00:26:17.565
I email people a lot.
00:26:17.654 --> 00:26:20.654
I, I, I love to being in touch with people and if you like.
00:26:21.330 --> 00:26:25.070
The way I talk about writing, I'm doing this all the time, and I'm writing those
00:26:25.340 --> 00:26:25.730
Love it.
00:26:25.860 --> 00:26:26.820
I would love to stay in touch with
00:26:26.955 --> 00:26:27.285
Nice.
00:26:27.285 --> 00:26:31.485
So yeah, and I, like I said, I'm, I'm a poster child for your email list'cause I've been on there for a while.
00:26:31.815 --> 00:26:33.835
So appreciate the content you put out.
00:26:33.995 --> 00:26:37.325
And I'll link, I'll link the website to the description so people can check that out.
00:26:37.485 --> 00:26:39.435
Daniel, this has been amazing.
00:26:39.465 --> 00:26:40.935
Thank you so much for taking the time to chat.
00:26:41.289 --> 00:26:41.509
Of
00:26:42.029 --> 00:26:42.690
Thank you so much.
00:26:42.690 --> 00:26:43.410
Thank you so much for having
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600
Daniel, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
00:00:03.629 --> 00:00:09.560
I wanted to start before we get into this and I, I just kind of mentioned this before we started recording, but I, I wanted people to hear it too.
00:00:09.609 --> 00:00:09.820
to hear
00:00:09.859 --> 00:00:13.490
I've been attending your summits and been on your newsletter for
00:00:13.570 --> 00:00:14.080
for
00:00:14.269 --> 00:00:14.689
time.
00:00:14.789 --> 00:00:17.100
So it is very cool to be here chatting with you.
00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:17.629
with you.
00:00:18.469 --> 00:00:18.815
you so much.
00:00:18.870 --> 00:00:19.079
Yeah.
00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:20.030
I really appreciate it.
00:00:20.030 --> 00:00:22.039
And looking forward to, to, to sharing some
00:00:22.190 --> 00:00:22.579
Yeah.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:22.850
Yeah.
00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:24.620
So we're, we're gonna, we're gonna dive right in here.
00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:26.750
We got a lot to share, which I, I'm really excited about.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:31.629
But first, before we do, I, I'd love to have you just kind of give a quick overview of, of who you are, what you're working on.
00:00:31.751 --> 00:00:32.381
Thank you so much.
00:00:32.441 --> 00:00:32.831
Yeah.
00:00:32.881 --> 00:00:33.631
Hi everybody.
00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:36.631
I am a fiction writing teacher.
00:00:36.930 --> 00:00:49.901
I created a system of writing called the Character First Writing Approach people in a range of different genres and styles and goals to get back to their original love of storytelling to.
00:00:50.235 --> 00:00:53.926
Try to think through and, and plot the way their readers read.
00:00:54.286 --> 00:01:04.456
And so the whole process feels hopefully a lot more natural and organic than some of the paths you will take when they try to learn how to be a better storyteller, be a better plotter.
00:01:04.536 --> 00:01:04.825
Yeah.
00:01:05.566 --> 00:01:12.566
I'm also the host of Escape the Plot Forest an annual summit, which I think we're gonna talk about this event, this, this, this session.
00:01:12.656 --> 00:01:13.376
Thank you so much.
00:01:14.215 --> 00:01:17.725
and that's just an amazing event that I started several years ago.
00:01:18.626 --> 00:01:26.156
Not knowing what it would turn into, and I'm, I'm very grateful that I've built up this community of people who keep coming back and it's been fantastic.
00:01:26.186 --> 00:01:26.396
Yeah.
00:01:26.581 --> 00:01:26.870
Yeah.
00:01:26.995 --> 00:01:27.385
That's awesome.
00:01:27.415 --> 00:01:27.566
Yeah.
00:01:27.686 --> 00:01:29.426
What a, what a great quick overview
00:01:29.516 --> 00:01:29.995
overview
00:01:30.115 --> 00:01:30.355
here.
00:01:30.596 --> 00:01:33.805
So, so let's talk a little bit about Escape the Plot Forest Summit.
00:01:33.865 --> 00:01:36.445
Tell us the, the dates, times, like the details on that.
00:01:37.495 --> 00:01:37.945
Great.
00:01:38.066 --> 00:01:41.885
So the event starts on the 18th of October, so it's coming
00:01:41.941 --> 00:01:42.230
Yeah,
00:01:43.115 --> 00:01:44.676
It is five days.
00:01:44.885 --> 00:01:46.596
It's almost 40 speakers.
00:01:47.320 --> 00:01:47.441
I.
00:01:47.781 --> 00:01:50.421
And we have our opening happy hours.
00:01:50.450 --> 00:01:54.141
I teach a three part class during the middle days, which is always a lot of fun.
00:01:54.230 --> 00:01:54.980
Teach that live.
00:01:55.251 --> 00:02:03.590
I kind of watch what everyone's talking about, things that seem to be confusing people, then I try to construct some live classes to, to deliver that.
00:02:03.590 --> 00:02:07.100
It's always a bit of a high wire Sometimes it doesn't completely land.
00:02:08.480 --> 00:02:10.311
Some my best sessions have come out of that.
00:02:10.311 --> 00:02:13.161
I did a whole session about eye color that made people very
00:02:13.475 --> 00:02:14.031
Oh wow.
00:02:14.131 --> 00:02:25.350
I have, of the opinion that eye color can spend, can take up too much time in a story, and we can have less, we can have fewer eye colors unless there's some kind of magical reason why people's eyes are important.
00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:31.050
The event is totally free if you could show up and attend live.
00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:39.001
So if you can watch the whole thing with a notepad and a cup of coffee, you can watch the whole thing five days.
00:02:39.091 --> 00:02:46.531
It's, it's a very substantial craft education, and I try to get all my speakers to speak longer than they often do at events like this.
00:02:46.531 --> 00:02:52.770
Really, that's my, one of my few secret sources is just to keep asking questions.
00:02:52.770 --> 00:02:53.911
But the end result is that.
00:02:54.556 --> 00:03:05.116
Over these five days, you get a really detailed and, and profound education in, in storytelling, in plotting, and, and this year we've got a lot of non-fiction sessions too,
00:03:05.131 --> 00:03:05.640
Oh, very cool.
00:03:06.195 --> 00:03:08.475
but you can also upgrade to get the paid pass.
00:03:08.566 --> 00:03:10.246
I didn't invent this model, by the way.
00:03:10.246 --> 00:03:13.216
It's a well-known way of designing this kind of online event.
00:03:13.515 --> 00:03:17.925
But you get the replay access, you get a bunch of other bonuses, and I made a little mini course this
00:03:18.270 --> 00:03:18.691
Oh, cool.
00:03:19.126 --> 00:03:20.985
Start Your Story in the Right Place.
00:03:21.270 --> 00:03:23.311
And people who sign up for the PayPal get that for
00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:24.036
Very cool.
00:03:24.510 --> 00:03:25.651
it's a nice little bonus.
00:03:27.031 --> 00:03:29.580
I think that's, that's, that's, that's the key information.
00:03:29.631 --> 00:03:42.681
We have a really great and part of the reason why we have a great community is that we have a, a very firmly applied code of conduct, and I feel really lucky that.
00:03:43.670 --> 00:03:47.420
It was really the attendees that started pointing out to me what I kept talking about.
00:03:47.570 --> 00:03:49.730
And they'd say, Daniel, you need to write this down.
00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:51.441
Like this keeps coming up at different events.
00:03:51.441 --> 00:03:54.591
You're sort of explaining bits of it problems emerge.
00:03:54.621 --> 00:03:55.520
Let's get it written down.
00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.621
I thought that is a very sensible idea.
00:03:58.640 --> 00:04:08.871
as with many things in the event, I, I feel like I am a collaborator or maybe even a follower to the people who keep coming back and just trying to make the event, event worthy of them.
00:04:09.350 --> 00:04:09.591
Hmm.
00:04:10.086 --> 00:04:11.376
Yeah, I, I love that.
00:04:11.376 --> 00:04:13.506
And I, I think too, like for people who are listening,
00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:13.670
who are
00:04:13.836 --> 00:04:14.765
You know, I, I
00:04:14.991 --> 00:04:15.290
I
00:04:15.545 --> 00:04:18.485
into the, the, the VIP I've used the replays.
00:04:18.485 --> 00:04:21.605
I'm somebody who's, who's got a busy, busy life and it's, but it's worth it to me.
00:04:21.605 --> 00:04:28.271
There's so much great content and, you know, watching live is great, but being able to go back and even like, grab sessions and rewatch'em.
00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:29.701
Is so helpful.
00:04:29.750 --> 00:04:31.190
And it, it's, it's so worth it.
00:04:31.190 --> 00:04:34.170
So any, anyone who's interested, definitely check this out.
00:04:34.221 --> 00:04:38.016
I, I would recommend the, doing the, the VIP getting the, the replays because.
00:04:38.750 --> 00:04:45.610
The reality is, you know, it's, it's so much content that it's really hard to consume it all, all at once across five days.
00:04:45.860 --> 00:04:51.661
And it's a wonderful, like it is something that it, I think it's great that you put it on for free for people who can who can make the time.
00:04:51.711 --> 00:04:54.406
I think that's just a great way of adding access to, to things.
00:04:54.690 --> 00:04:54.870
I think.
00:04:54.870 --> 00:04:55.411
That's wonderful.
00:04:55.411 --> 00:04:56.951
So thank you for all the work that you do.
00:04:56.951 --> 00:04:58.690
I, I've done many versions of this.
00:04:58.690 --> 00:05:04.120
I have a, I have a community that I run and I've done like very small sessions and like, it's like with.
00:05:04.536 --> 00:05:05.855
With like 15 people.
00:05:05.946 --> 00:05:11.286
Like, I can't imagine what you're doing with, with as many people as you get to these summits.
00:05:11.286 --> 00:05:12.036
So it's very cool.
00:05:12.036 --> 00:05:18.485
And, and I know as, as a writer, I can, I can speak for, for a lot of writers and say like, I do appreciate, really do appreciate the hard work that goes into that.
00:05:18.565 --> 00:05:18.925
Thank you
00:05:19.071 --> 00:05:19.430
Of course.
00:05:19.685 --> 00:05:19.906
So,
00:05:19.915 --> 00:05:20.336
course.
00:05:20.451 --> 00:05:26.511
tell me a little bit about why you think these events are so important for writers to participate in.
00:05:27.656 --> 00:05:34.516
Well, I got two reasons, and you know, I don't think they're gonna be particularly unique or surprising things, but I think they're worth saying.
00:05:35.235 --> 00:05:44.656
The first is, I think that many writers, even the people who come to classes, listen to craft of writing podcasts, go to events.
00:05:44.956 --> 00:05:48.346
We still have this little voice in our, in our heads that says.
00:05:49.125 --> 00:05:51.225
You should just be able to do this by yourself.
00:05:51.555 --> 00:05:53.745
You should just be able to just write.
00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:57.240
your backside in the chair and just make the stories come out.
00:05:58.050 --> 00:06:04.716
I think that while that is, is worth listening to that advice, and sometimes you do just have to sit in the chair and, and make the story come out.
00:06:04.716 --> 00:06:05.975
I, I totally accept that.
00:06:06.605 --> 00:06:14.615
But that learning the craft learning skills and, and just hearing things afresh is so valuable to writers.
00:06:15.305 --> 00:06:19.326
You are competing with people who either have been doing this for a really long time.
00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:27.500
access to great professional editors in their publishing houses, or in some cases were writing since they were very small children.
00:06:27.740 --> 00:06:35.750
And so by the time they were 18, they had solved a whole bunch of problems that you now as an adult are trying to figure out with your busy life.
00:06:36.531 --> 00:06:48.380
And it's really okay to say to yourself, I just need to listen to different kinds of plotting advice from different teachers, some of it is gonna hit me in a way that I'm not expecting Suddenly that.
00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:52.430
Odd element or that thing I keep hearing about will make sense.
00:06:52.730 --> 00:06:56.750
And in my experience, it's very difficult to predict what that is gonna be.
00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:02.630
just to be clear, like I listened to most of the event before it happens because I prerecord stuff.
00:07:02.750 --> 00:07:02.841
Mm-hmm.
00:07:03.201 --> 00:07:06.170
And it's not like I'm sitting there thinking, oh yeah, here we go again.
00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:09.591
You know, three act structure, hero's journey.
00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.190
I mean would be a very, a very sad session.
00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:14.810
Frequently what I'm hearing is like.
00:07:15.605 --> 00:07:16.685
never thought of it that way.
00:07:16.985 --> 00:07:18.545
That's a really nice way of putting it.
00:07:18.545 --> 00:07:19.776
That makes a lot of sense.
00:07:19.925 --> 00:07:25.985
And when I'm sitting there in the, in the video looking like I'm impressed by the speaker I am, I'm like, oh, that's really clever.
00:07:27.365 --> 00:07:31.146
so I think that's really important, like just getting the training and it's, it's right there.
00:07:31.146 --> 00:07:31.776
Five days.
00:07:31.776 --> 00:07:40.815
You just need to ignore your cat for a bit you know, apologize to your children and you can have a huge amount of craft education in a really small amount of
00:07:41.036 --> 00:07:41.235
Yeah.
00:07:42.406 --> 00:07:49.906
The second one is that life for many of us conspires to make us feel like our writing isn't that important.
00:07:51.196 --> 00:07:58.516
If you have, if you already have a huge book deal and this, and the agent is screaming at you to get the next book out, that might be different.
00:07:58.665 --> 00:08:02.596
But for many of us, we are feeling like we publish a book.
00:08:03.826 --> 00:08:05.086
It's hard to find people to read it.
00:08:05.326 --> 00:08:05.685
We're trying.
00:08:05.925 --> 00:08:06.346
We're trying.
00:08:06.346 --> 00:08:08.146
We're getting into book to draft three.
00:08:09.391 --> 00:08:10.620
Is anyone actually out there?
00:08:11.011 --> 00:08:30.721
It's so powerful to be in a place for basically a week where you are surrounded by people who agree that what you're doing is important they are supportive and actively looking for fellow writers to allies with, to be friends with, to, to, to support each other and to see perhaps, you know, your next mentor at the event.
00:08:31.471 --> 00:08:33.030
For some people, you know, I hope that'll be me.
00:08:33.331 --> 00:08:42.900
But there's, it is very possible that you'll see someone at the event that suits you better, that speaks in a way, or is writing the kind of books or advises the kind of writer that you want to be.
00:08:42.900 --> 00:08:44.431
And that, that's fantastic.
00:08:44.431 --> 00:08:54.030
I think that's, I think trying to do it all alone with the pressure that the world put us, puts us all under you know, it's
00:08:54.181 --> 00:08:54.660
Yeah.
00:08:54.870 --> 00:08:55.140
Yeah.
00:08:55.230 --> 00:08:55.681
I love that.
00:08:55.681 --> 00:08:57.931
I, I think it's such an important message for people to hear.
00:08:58.110 --> 00:09:05.341
And I think you're right, like listening, you know, I always tell people like, if you're here and you're listening to this, like you're doing the good work, but like, this is the next step, right?
00:09:05.341 --> 00:09:11.961
Like going to a summit, going, going to a conference, doing you know, that type of work is the next step on in, in your writing journey.
00:09:11.961 --> 00:09:15.311
And if you wanna take this seriously it's just the things that, that kind of come with the territory.
00:09:15.471 --> 00:09:16.821
You know, it'd be like anything else, right?
00:09:16.821 --> 00:09:18.321
Anything else you wanna do that you wanna do?
00:09:18.321 --> 00:09:18.711
Well.
00:09:18.841 --> 00:09:19.951
You, you have to do it the right way.
00:09:20.260 --> 00:09:21.760
So let's, let's talk plot a little bit.
00:09:21.821 --> 00:09:28.201
I, I would love to pick your brain, especially now realizing that you've probably done or listened to a few of these sessions.
00:09:28.201 --> 00:09:33.600
You probably have even more ideas on plot than you had maybe a month ago or two months ago.
00:09:33.650 --> 00:09:42.620
So what, what are your, if you could give like three of your favorite tips or tricks for developing plot, what do you think those would be?
00:09:42.711 --> 00:09:43.610
That's a great question.
00:09:44.913 --> 00:09:51.994
the, the, the first thing I, I often teach and I talk to people about, and this is one part of character first writing.
00:09:53.014 --> 00:09:59.583
And it's, it's part, it's the part that a lot of people remember because it's, it's, it's about the beginning, so it's kind of easy to remember.
00:09:59.583 --> 00:10:09.788
This part I think that it's, it's really good in a novel to try to get a character doing something really before page one.
00:10:10.749 --> 00:10:20.979
And I think that, you know, I, for say the thriller adjacent genre, police pro, the police investigating the crime genre.
00:10:21.788 --> 00:10:23.678
I think that's why you see so many.
00:10:24.724 --> 00:10:34.313
Stories where it's like the police officers or detective's last case, or they're about to move to a smaller town and have an easier life.
00:10:35.604 --> 00:10:45.744
And that that's not just character flavor, that's not just a sort of interesting wrinkle put on the character, like saying, this person's in motion.
00:10:46.193 --> 00:10:59.634
And so as they try and pursue their original goal, or they try to pursue like what they think the story is and the story pressures them to say there's actually something bigger.
00:10:59.634 --> 00:10:59.874
Here.
00:10:59.933 --> 00:11:02.514
You are actually being traced, chased by a serial killer.
00:11:02.844 --> 00:11:06.144
There is actually a conspiracy in the town, in the city hall.
00:11:07.288 --> 00:11:13.764
The, the heroes resistance to that reality tells the reader that that reality is real.
00:11:15.024 --> 00:11:18.504
And I find that trying to do instead the story where like.
00:11:18.744 --> 00:11:23.153
A person just living their life or doing their job and stuff just happens to them.
00:11:23.903 --> 00:11:33.053
I think that works a lot better in a film where you've got an actor looking really charismatic and smiling and you know, George Clooney's like frying some eggs on it in the kitchen.
00:11:33.144 --> 00:11:33.984
I watch that.
00:11:34.374 --> 00:11:38.303
But when it's your book, you don't have George Clooney to, to do the.
00:11:39.489 --> 00:11:42.698
To do those lines like you, you just got a voice in someone's head.
00:11:43.028 --> 00:11:46.239
And so I think that's a really good way of, of getting started.
00:11:46.239 --> 00:11:46.839
Does that make sense?
00:11:46.839 --> 00:11:46.989
Is that
00:11:47.124 --> 00:11:48.173
Yeah, it totally does.
00:11:48.203 --> 00:11:55.553
And it's funny, I've long suspected that the Save the Cat method, especially for certain genres, I think for certain genres it works better than others.
00:11:55.553 --> 00:11:58.644
But I think for, for the thriller and thriller adjacent genres.
00:11:59.033 --> 00:12:01.673
It's really hard to start like slice of life.
00:12:01.673 --> 00:12:07.703
Like it's, unless your character, their slice of life is inherently dynamic for readers, right?
00:12:07.703 --> 00:12:15.344
Like you could, you could potentially pull off a police procedural day in the life if they're like, their day in the life is like chasing a somebody down, right?
00:12:15.344 --> 00:12:16.484
Like that, that works then.
00:12:16.764 --> 00:12:17.509
But I think day in the life.
00:12:18.073 --> 00:12:20.349
It, it just doesn't work in every genre.
00:12:20.349 --> 00:12:22.749
Even though I think Save the Cat is great in a lot of things.
00:12:22.749 --> 00:12:23.708
I know a lot of people use it.
00:12:23.708 --> 00:12:28.859
I know a lot of people love it, and, and I use it and I understand it, and I, I, I do adhere to it to a certain degree.
00:12:28.859 --> 00:12:35.999
But at the same time, like in this genre, like you're mentioning, like it is really hard to grab a reader's attention on page one.
00:12:36.058 --> 00:12:40.229
If your character's day-to-day life isn't particularly dynamic.
00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:41.578
Is that kind of what you're saying here?
00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:31.033
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know.
00:13:32.378 --> 00:13:33.608
I love save the cat method too.
00:13:33.608 --> 00:13:33.818
Yeah.
00:13:33.848 --> 00:13:34.388
it's great.
00:13:35.078 --> 00:13:40.358
think that like to the character, what's happening on page one should be really important.
00:13:40.453 --> 00:13:40.573
Hmm.
00:13:40.868 --> 00:13:40.958
Mm-hmm.
00:13:41.198 --> 00:13:43.508
It might be small, it might be small stakes.
00:13:43.508 --> 00:13:48.838
It might be, you know, not answered my call about going out on a date.
00:13:49.528 --> 00:13:53.938
It might be my friend won't come round to gimme that dancing lesson that she promised you would.
00:13:54.928 --> 00:14:04.858
But I think that it needs to be something that feels real and vivid, that gets the character agonizing about things, hoping for things, maybe even doing something.
00:14:05.638 --> 00:14:11.399
I think that it, when you start there, I think the misunderstanding people have of everyday life.
00:14:12.973 --> 00:14:18.763
Is that people think the story begins in like page five when the everyday life part is over.
00:14:19.573 --> 00:14:21.853
I'm just confident about this.
00:14:21.853 --> 00:14:23.443
You don't have until page five.
00:14:23.863 --> 00:14:28.753
Maybe you had it until page five back in the Victorian era, but you definitely don't have until page five
00:14:28.963 --> 00:14:29.323
Yeah.
00:14:29.713 --> 00:14:37.153
And I, I, I frequently talk to writers and their, their confidence in their reader staggers me when they say things like, well.
00:14:37.843 --> 00:14:41.863
You know, the story will really kick off from page 15 or, or even like the 25%
00:14:42.103 --> 00:14:42.283
Yeah.
00:14:42.313 --> 00:14:44.623
just like, that's not how this
00:14:44.688 --> 00:14:45.108
Mm-hmm.
00:14:45.433 --> 00:14:46.723
Mm-hmm.
00:14:46.724 --> 00:14:51.153
And when I think of the books I really like, they frequently have a wonderful first page.
00:14:51.423 --> 00:14:57.783
The character is, even if it is subtle, it doesn't need to, I don't, I'm not, also not a bleak big believer and like a huge fight scene on
00:14:57.899 --> 00:14:58.318
Mm-hmm.
00:14:58.378 --> 00:14:58.798
Mm-hmm.
00:14:58.883 --> 00:15:01.803
I think that frequently falls flat, but that.
00:15:02.193 --> 00:15:03.963
The character is in motion.
00:15:03.993 --> 00:15:11.283
Something happened to them in page minus one or page minus 10 that we don't get to see, but they are bothered.
00:15:11.943 --> 00:15:14.538
And, and from there, I think you can start to build.
00:15:14.613 --> 00:15:23.899
You know, not only can you start to build up an interesting of plot, but it also starts to hint to you about a whole bunch of other things that should be happening later in the story in the middle.
00:15:24.633 --> 00:15:29.313
Towards the end, and I think you just follow those thoughts to their destination.
00:15:29.313 --> 00:15:31.533
You get some really interesting points, but that, that's my
00:15:31.803 --> 00:15:32.073
Cool.
00:15:32.073 --> 00:15:32.913
that's kinda my first idea.
00:15:32.913 --> 00:15:33.123
Is that
00:15:33.274 --> 00:15:33.988
Yeah, that's beautiful.
00:15:33.988 --> 00:15:34.428
Let's go to.
00:15:34.683 --> 00:15:35.793
Let's go to, let's go to number two.
00:15:35.793 --> 00:15:36.543
What do you got for this?
00:15:36.753 --> 00:15:48.723
So, I don't know if this is about plotting, but one of the things I see people do a lot is that they will introduce a character, main character early on, and we'll get to see the character doing things.
00:15:48.993 --> 00:15:51.513
Maybe some of this everyday life stuff that we've talked about.
00:15:52.218 --> 00:15:58.578
It's already great, but then as the story goes on, it's as if we get more and more distant from that character.
00:15:59.328 --> 00:16:06.019
It's like the we, we, as soon as you'll like, you'll be reading a manuscript say, and you'll turn the page and they'll just be like, dialogue the whole page.
00:16:06.798 --> 00:16:09.708
And there are some people that can make that work.
00:16:09.769 --> 00:16:11.418
I don't know Elmore Leonard who probably do
00:16:11.533 --> 00:16:11.753
Hmm.
00:16:12.318 --> 00:16:13.968
but I find that in most cases.
00:16:15.288 --> 00:16:24.883
As the main character's, thoughts and feelings, and even sort of heart to heart conversations with someone else where they reflect on what's happening as that shrinks through the story.
00:16:26.073 --> 00:16:33.243
The reader starts to feel and further away from what's going on, and at times cannot even understand what is happening.
00:16:34.053 --> 00:16:41.133
Someone will say something really mean to the protagonist, and then there's just another line of dialogue and the reader is thinking, was that mean?
00:16:41.853 --> 00:16:42.963
Did I misread that?
00:16:43.203 --> 00:16:45.243
Because the character doesn't seem to have reacted to it.
00:16:46.144 --> 00:16:51.063
And I think that many writers get into the kind of zone where they're like, well, of course the character reacted.
00:16:51.063 --> 00:16:51.783
I felt it.
00:16:52.758 --> 00:17:07.729
it's hard to sort of re bring us off back and say, try and get, like, every time this character is pushed, startled, I mean pushed like emotionally and physically and anything that happens to the character, that would be like a thing, would be a moment.
00:17:07.788 --> 00:17:09.919
Let's get like a reaction on the page.
00:17:11.088 --> 00:17:20.568
And the thing I I, I tell people all the time is if you overdo that stuff in the first draft, anybody.
00:17:21.378 --> 00:17:25.469
Your your best friend Bob, editor friends of the Writing Workshop.
00:17:25.769 --> 00:17:29.219
Anybody can read that draft and tell you what to cut?
00:17:30.088 --> 00:17:30.328
Yeah.
00:17:30.328 --> 00:17:31.798
You laid it on a bit thick here.
00:17:31.798 --> 00:17:32.459
Yeah, I got it.
00:17:32.459 --> 00:17:36.058
I got it after the third, the third par sentence of that introspection.
00:17:37.814 --> 00:17:46.574
They can tell you how to remove that stuff and trim it down, almost nobody can tell you how to do the reverse if it's just opaque and nobody understands what's happening.
00:17:46.874 --> 00:17:49.124
Character's going through a bunch of scenes, things are happening.
00:17:49.213 --> 00:17:50.263
A lot of stuff is going on.
00:17:50.534 --> 00:17:52.004
Character doesn't seem to be reacting well.
00:17:52.004 --> 00:17:56.054
They can't tell you what should be on the page because it's not their character.
00:17:56.354 --> 00:18:03.284
You have to get a really good editor at that point who can like get into the story and on an emotional level, understand story structure.
00:18:03.739 --> 00:18:06.739
Understands all kinds of things and that they can start filling it in
00:18:06.994 --> 00:18:07.413
Mm-hmm.
00:18:07.639 --> 00:18:08.899
You should have reacted here.
00:18:08.929 --> 00:18:10.068
Actually, that was a big deal.
00:18:10.068 --> 00:18:11.269
Remember that thing on page 20?
00:18:11.989 --> 00:18:13.099
They would've remembered that.
00:18:13.369 --> 00:18:20.019
That's hard and hard to find someone like that and it's, often kind of expensive to hire someone to do that for you.
00:18:20.499 --> 00:18:23.889
So I always tell people like, lay that stuff on thick.
00:18:23.889 --> 00:18:25.629
Stay close to the character.
00:18:26.499 --> 00:18:29.499
are not writing, most of us are not writing.
00:18:30.964 --> 00:18:44.614
British Victorian novels or American Harlem Renaissance novels where there is like a narrator who is guiding us through the story telling us right and wrong, steering us to understand what is we are supposed to be taking from the story.
00:18:45.403 --> 00:18:52.394
If you're writing that kind of book, this advice is less relevant, I don't know anybody tr very few people are trying to write that kind of
00:18:52.589 --> 00:18:52.879
Yeah.
00:18:52.933 --> 00:18:56.054
so instead, the only guide we have is our.
00:18:56.349 --> 00:18:57.788
Small number of main characters.
00:18:57.788 --> 00:19:04.706
And so I say, let's get that character talking, sharing thoughts, illuminating this story for us, or people just get lost.
00:19:04.726 --> 00:19:05.026
Yeah.
00:19:05.026 --> 00:19:05.536
I love that.
00:19:05.596 --> 00:19:06.135
I, I,
00:19:06.176 --> 00:19:06.385
I,
00:19:06.496 --> 00:19:11.865
to bring it back to, to this genre and the, and these, you know, thriller suspense, crime fiction.
00:19:11.865 --> 00:19:13.336
I feel like a lot of people think
00:19:13.556 --> 00:19:13.885
think
00:19:14.086 --> 00:19:15.166
a lot about their plot
00:19:15.206 --> 00:19:15.296
their
00:19:15.466 --> 00:19:16.395
and like, rightfully so.
00:19:16.395 --> 00:19:19.456
You're kind of, there's some requirements when it comes to plot.
00:19:19.456 --> 00:19:22.576
You gotta twist, you gotta have twists, you gotta have turns, you gotta have an antagonist.
00:19:22.576 --> 00:19:23.806
You gotta have all of these things.
00:19:23.956 --> 00:19:25.486
And I think that that takes up a lot of space.
00:19:25.510 --> 00:19:37.811
And when we're thinking of thriller writers and who are sitting down and writing and when, I think that a lot of writers that, that I work with, and a lot of writers that I talk to, my, myself included, we get so caught up in the plot that we forget the character of it.
00:19:37.811 --> 00:19:44.081
So like we are, we're like getting to the next plot point, getting to the next plot point, and our characters end up just like pieces on the board.
00:19:44.331 --> 00:19:47.000
And, and I think that that's a, a really great point.
00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.480
To make, and I think it does align with plot be for that reason, right?
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:57.020
Because like your plot then becomes the whole story, but that's your, your plot's not the story, the character's the story, right?
00:19:57.020 --> 00:20:02.520
And so I think what, what a, what a really valuable lesson for people to, to hear as they're, as they're listening to this.
00:20:02.881 --> 00:20:03.361
Very cool.
00:20:03.391 --> 00:20:04.020
Let's do number three.
00:20:04.641 --> 00:20:04.750
Okay.
00:20:06.131 --> 00:20:15.101
And this one may require the thriller writer to adapt a bit, but something I think a lot about, and this is you know, a another kinda character.
00:20:15.101 --> 00:20:18.401
First idea is about the midpoint of the story.
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:26.861
And I read as I read more novels, but contemporary novels, I feel like the midpoint is becoming like a really important thing.
00:20:26.891 --> 00:20:28.480
Like I can even remember novels.
00:20:29.101 --> 00:20:45.211
Doesn't really have a very significant 75% mark despite what all the plotting advice tells you you're supposed to have I can't really remember exactly what happened at the 75% mark, but I can absolutely remember the midpoint, something big happened, some kind of big, big reveal.
00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:55.801
I think that a lot of writing advice of genre independent writing advice, talks about sort of just like a.
00:20:56.881 --> 00:21:05.221
A shift may be in the protagonist's interests, like they go from being passive to active or or disengaged to engaged.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.760
And I think that kind of advice is good, but I encourage writers to be like.
00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:14.471
A bit hard on their protagonist.
00:21:14.471 --> 00:21:28.750
And again, like in a thriller genre, you might have to adjust this a bit, but I like to think about a midpoint as being something like a knot that closes around the protagonist that they can't get out.
00:21:28.801 --> 00:21:35.510
At this point they are somehow stuck in the story, and that might be in a very character driven story.
00:21:35.811 --> 00:21:39.951
They go from not wanting to do the thing to wanting to do the thing that that could work.
00:21:40.791 --> 00:21:47.631
But in other stories there's an amazing novel Jade City fondly where in Jade City th.
00:21:48.531 --> 00:21:59.841
I, I'm gonna slightly give someone important dies at the halfway point, and everyone else's role is suddenly transformed, but they can't leave now because it's a crisis it's a great midpoint shift.
00:21:59.871 --> 00:22:00.651
It doesn't, yes.
00:22:00.651 --> 00:22:03.141
On one level it just sort of shake, shakes things up.
00:22:03.411 --> 00:22:07.131
But on a deeper level, it forces these characters to now be in the story.
00:22:07.461 --> 00:22:10.281
They're no longer just watching other people take charge.
00:22:10.281 --> 00:22:12.291
They now have to decide what to do.
00:22:13.201 --> 00:22:21.000
And the, the example I love to give,'cause I just think it is so brilliant, This is the midpoint of the fellowship of the Ring by token.
00:22:22.561 --> 00:22:26.911
And I think that is just such a fantastic example of like what a midpoint can be.
00:22:27.181 --> 00:22:34.730
And if you, if you, just to recap the book, In the fellowship of the ring Froto is given the ring.
00:22:34.791 --> 00:22:40.281
He's told he's gotta go on this journey and he decides, well, I dunno where to go, so why not just go and visit Bilbo?
00:22:40.311 --> 00:22:43.941
My old, my old friend father figure, let's go see Bilbo.
00:22:44.661 --> 00:22:50.391
He spends the first half of the book trying to get to, to Bilbo on the way he discovers he's being hunted.
00:22:50.571 --> 00:22:53.270
He's not strong enough to, to fight off these people.
00:22:53.331 --> 00:22:55.371
They are basically hounding him to death.
00:22:56.421 --> 00:23:02.301
He survives just by, you know, almost, almost is killed, brought back to life.
00:23:02.401 --> 00:23:13.951
He and, and by at Aaron's house and he gets to finally see but Bilbo and he realizes that they cannot spend time together because he looks at Bilbo and is disgusted by him.
00:23:14.641 --> 00:23:21.750
He sees his bilbo's desire for the ring that he now has, and he realizes that he will not let bilbo see or touch the
00:23:21.776 --> 00:23:21.855
Hmm.
00:23:22.711 --> 00:23:24.781
And so now he's stuck in the story.
00:23:25.141 --> 00:23:26.730
He cannot let go of the ring.
00:23:27.421 --> 00:23:29.191
cannot be, he cannot let go of the ring.
00:23:29.221 --> 00:23:30.990
'cause he's, he's also now obsessed by it.
00:23:31.321 --> 00:23:36.661
He cannot just be sort of calm and relaxed and chill because he's being haunted by it.
00:23:36.661 --> 00:23:38.641
And he gotta get away from bilbo somehow.
00:23:39.391 --> 00:23:41.760
And he, he's not safe because he's being hunted.
00:23:42.571 --> 00:23:54.571
And so it's not like, you know, I realize if you're doing a thriller where it's just like someone from the outside is, is trying to chase your character down, I understand that might require a bit of adjustment, but I think it's such a great model.
00:23:54.571 --> 00:23:57.541
So it's saying to the reader, what's this person gonna do
00:23:57.791 --> 00:23:57.871
Hmm.
00:23:58.351 --> 00:24:00.961
And I think that's a really good way of thinking about the middle of a story.
00:24:01.605 --> 00:24:02.476
I, I love that.
00:24:02.476 --> 00:24:08.406
I love that thought process around kind of a, a shift away from, I think in, in thrillers.
00:24:08.406 --> 00:24:15.256
And, and to your point, I think a lot of people, when they write thrillers and talking to a lot of thriller writers, they have, they tend to have that opening scene.
00:24:15.286 --> 00:24:16.456
They tend to have.
00:24:17.010 --> 00:24:23.881
That 75 to a hundred percent mark, like people tend to feel really good about those sections of their novels.
00:24:24.421 --> 00:24:34.456
And then it's that midpoint and, and I'm wondering if, if this to some degree is, is adaptable and, and would help a lot of writers in this genre because that's what I see.
00:24:34.456 --> 00:24:35.176
I see that all the time.
00:24:35.176 --> 00:24:35.916
I see writers who are like.
00:24:36.436 --> 00:24:38.145
I know exactly how this is gonna end.
00:24:38.145 --> 00:24:39.105
I know who the killer is.
00:24:39.105 --> 00:24:40.096
I know what it's gonna look like.
00:24:40.096 --> 00:24:42.105
I know, you know, that's 75%.
00:24:42.105 --> 00:24:44.326
I know, like the climax, the whole thing all the way through.
00:24:44.716 --> 00:24:51.286
And I know what my opening couple of scenes are and then they get caught in this like where like the stakes don't change for the character.
00:24:51.286 --> 00:24:53.416
It's just like more things happening.
00:24:53.421 --> 00:24:53.431
But,
00:24:53.635 --> 00:24:53.846
Oh,
00:24:53.865 --> 00:24:56.566
but no, no kind of increase intention.
00:24:56.566 --> 00:24:59.996
And I'm wondering, you know, this, this might work really well in these genres.
00:25:00.046 --> 00:25:05.355
So Daniel, my, my last question for you is really just around kind of what, what's next for you.
00:25:05.355 --> 00:25:11.486
So if people are listening to this, hopefully they're listening to it early, they're, they're getting in the summit, they're, they're joining escape the, the plot for us.
00:25:11.486 --> 00:25:16.186
But beyond that, you know, people are listening to this a little bit later or they want to keep in contact with you.
00:25:16.186 --> 00:25:18.046
Like, what, what do you got coming up next for you?
00:25:18.966 --> 00:25:21.066
am, I love to teach.
00:25:21.246 --> 00:25:24.276
I come up with this stuff, new stuff all the time.
00:25:24.456 --> 00:25:25.956
I'm constantly thinking of ways to.
00:25:26.645 --> 00:25:27.756
Reach the next writer.
00:25:28.656 --> 00:25:33.605
And on a very practical note, I have the next summit coming up in March, 2026.
00:25:33.605 --> 00:25:35.226
It's called Perfect Your Process.
00:25:35.226 --> 00:25:41.676
It's a writing process and lifestyle and Life and Writing Habits event that's coming up in March.
00:25:42.576 --> 00:25:54.365
And I have a range of, when I'm not doing my summits, I have a range of courses, some for free, some, I have a group coaching program called The Residency that's really popular and so I'm always.
00:25:55.101 --> 00:25:58.272
Eager to meet new writers and see if the way I teach is useful to
00:26:00.345 --> 00:26:00.674
Nice.
00:26:00.674 --> 00:26:02.475
And so where, where can people find you?
00:26:02.505 --> 00:26:05.445
Where can people look you up if they're, if they're listening to this and they wanna find you?
00:26:05.505 --> 00:26:06.015
wanna find you?
00:26:06.345 --> 00:26:16.185
The best way is to go to my website, Daniel David wallace.com take a look around, the free call, sign up, and then I'll be in touch with my email list.
00:26:16.215 --> 00:26:17.565
I email people a lot.
00:26:17.654 --> 00:26:20.654
I, I, I love to being in touch with people and if you like.
00:26:21.330 --> 00:26:25.070
The way I talk about writing, I'm doing this all the time, and I'm writing those
00:26:25.340 --> 00:26:25.730
Love it.
00:26:25.860 --> 00:26:26.820
I would love to stay in touch with
00:26:26.955 --> 00:26:27.285
Nice.
00:26:27.285 --> 00:26:31.485
So yeah, and I, like I said, I'm, I'm a poster child for your email list'cause I've been on there for a while.
00:26:31.815 --> 00:26:33.835
So appreciate the content you put out.
00:26:33.995 --> 00:26:37.325
And I'll link, I'll link the website to the description so people can check that out.
00:26:37.485 --> 00:26:39.435
Daniel, this has been amazing.
00:26:39.465 --> 00:26:40.935
Thank you so much for taking the time to chat.
00:26:41.289 --> 00:26:41.509
Of
00:26:42.029 --> 00:26:42.690
Thank you so much.
00:26:42.690 --> 00:26:43.410
Thank you so much for having
