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I'm Jo Muirhead and this is the Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast.
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This season is all about the future of working within healthcare and what it takes to stay
in meaningful work without being consumed by it.
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Across this season, we're going to be talking about capacity, identity, leadership,
ethics, and the systems that we're working inside of, including the ones that may not be
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serving us as the healthcare clinicians that we are.
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You'll hear from clinicians, founders, system shapers who've expanded how they've served
all without abandoning themselves, their identity or their credentials.
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And you'll also hear some solo episodes where I step back and name the patterns many of us
are living but rarely given language for.
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Things like psychosocial risk, moral injury, identity strain and the quiet exhaustion that
comes from carrying way too much for way too long.
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This isn't about hustle.
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This isn't about burning it all down and needing to find a brand new career.
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It's about learning how to work with clarity, capacity and intention so that we can
continue to contribute in ways that matter.
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I'm really glad you're here.
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Let's begin today's conversation.
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Hello and welcome back to the Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast.
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am your host, Jo Muirhead, coming to you from the beautiful Blue Mountains, west of Sydney
today.
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After all the rain we've had over the last couple of weeks, I am so pleased the sun is
shining.
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I may have developed a seasonal affective disorder very quickly in the last couple of
weeks.
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Today's episode is going to be really interesting for people who are curious about the
power of niching or niching, depending on where you are in the Southern or Northern
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hemisphere.
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But also, how do we harness the power of the media for good?
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For our good, for the good of our clients.
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So I have a guest today.
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Her name is Deborah Zucker.
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She is coming to me from, did you say Washington state?
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I think you did.
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Yes.
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Yeah, got that right.
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Beautiful.
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So we just made sure that time zones mean that one of us shouldn't be asleep that's all.
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But before we go on, I want to thank the traditional owners of the land that I find myself
on today.
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This is the land of the Darug people.
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West of Sydney in the Blue Mountains, a beautiful place to live.
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I want to acknowledge their latest past, present and emerging.
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And I want to express my gratitude for how you've cared for this land so that people like
me
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can actually come and live here today.
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That being said, welcome Deborah.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you so much for having me here.
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uh That is my absolute pleasure.
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Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, who you serve, and how you turn up in the
world?
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Sure.
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I am a mama of a five-year-old.
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I live in Bellingham, Washington.
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My training is as a naturopathic physician, mental health counselor and coach.
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I'm also an award-winning author of The Vitality Map, and I have a new book coming out,
The Vitality Journal.
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And yeah, I specialize in working with women, mostly midlife women.
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who are in times of significant life transition.
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And I support sort of that rebirth journey, that deeper journey into how do we really
align our lives with what brings us alive and to support the feedback, the burnout, the
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grief, the different ways in which we discover that it's time to get the support on board
we need.
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to reemerge in this world with a more vital presence.
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yeah, so it's a deeper journey of self-care that I support that to me often feels like
basic life skills that we weren't taught.
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Oh, heck no.
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No, I was not taught those life skills.
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was taught work harder, work harder, work harder, work harder, work harder, work harder,
work harder, work harder.
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And when you're done, just work harder.
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And I understand the power, because I've been in a transition journey for about five years
now.
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And I understand the power of giving us the opportunity to rethink and
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deprogram ourselves, if I want to use that language, from, that we know that working
harder, women just can't work any harder.
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Like working harder isn't the answer.
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It might have been the answer after, you know, World War II, because of the state of the
world at that time.
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But there's just nothing harder we can we can do.
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And it's interesting that we've got so much more rhetoric and wisdom coming up from women,
particularly who are older, maybe even older than me.
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who are sharing that, no, no, no, we need a much softer approach.
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one of the powerful things, there's a couple of powerful things about your website
presence.
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And one of them was how well you have niched or niched.
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Yeah.
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It's almost like it's an incredibly narrow, like it's women going through transition, but
every sentence, every statement, every image on your website just supports.
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me reading it.
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Can you explain a little bit about how you came to this understanding?
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Like how did you come to know that this was the group of people you wanted to work with?
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Yeah, I mean, I really am in some ways like my audience has been transitioning with me.
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In a way, it's like, this is me, you know, this has been my journey, right?
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So so kind of discovering my niche has has also been really acknowledging like, what's the
heart of the healing journey I've been on?
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And, yeah, and who is showing up?
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Who am I speaking to that's just naturally showing up?
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And then I
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And then discovering like, okay, like there's a pattern here.
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It's mostly, you know, at this stage of my work, it's mostly women from age 40 to 60 who
are going through significant life transitions.
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and to actually acknowledge that, that those are the people that I most love working with
too.
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So that's been part of the niching process is not only who's showing up, but where do I
feel like my gifts are being most acknowledged and received in their, their fullness.
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Like where's there that real match?
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And then getting some copywriter support to help to really hone in on how do we capture
that in the language that will speak directly to those people so that it's not just part
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of the audience of who I'm working with, but it becomes more of the full audience that I'm
meeting.
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That was certainly my experience.
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It was like your website was written for me.
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I didn't go looking for it, by the way, people.
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Deborah reached out to me.
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So I'm like, oh, who is this person?
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And I'm reading this website going, whoa.
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Is she in my head?
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Is she in my studio?
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Like, wow, this is really powerful.
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oh, there's a couple of things that came up for me then.
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One was, I'm assuming it wasn't effortless, but the way you presented it was like, well,
who's showing up?
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Who's resonating with it?
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I think as health professionals, when we start, and even when we're trying to transition,
like I don't want to work with that client group A anymore, I'm going to move on to client
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group B.
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We, because we're so good at rationalizing, intellectualizing and overanalyzing that we
start going, well, what's the best niche?
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What's the best niche?
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And it's like, well, what do mean by the best?
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It's like, and I think your presentation then was the best niche is the one you serve.
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The best niche for you is the one you can serve with your whole heart.
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Yes, yeah, and I think that part is so key because sometimes we might be putting ourselves
out there in the way where we do have a lot of people showing up who have needs, but it's
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not actually bringing us alive.
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And I think, you know, for the sustainability of our own work, we need to make sure that
it's the combination where it's not just people who have a need that we could serve, but
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it's actually what brings us alive, what feels really
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engaging at that deep soul level of this is what I'm here for.
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These are the people I'm here for.
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And to listen for that feedback because if we're not doing that, as I've discovered in the
past, it leads to burnout.
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So it's just really important to have that discernment and honesty with ourselves about
that.
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Yeah, that's one of the big features of being in business for yourself is actually getting
really honest with yourself.
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That's not where I wanted to take the conversation by the way, but I really appreciate
that point because that's confronting, but it's also liberating that once you learn how to
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be honest with yourself, because I had a coach, she was a wonderful woman and I respect
her greatly.
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And what I wanted to build just wasn't working.
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And after about
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three, four months, she turned around and she said, I don't think you want to do this.
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And I fought with her.
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I have invested my life into this.
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She says, I actually don't think it's what you're meant to be doing.
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And I don't think it brings you alive.
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And I really think you want to kill it.
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She's right.
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I didn't like it that I didn't like hearing that.
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But it took me months to agree with her.
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But she was right.
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So you've talked about how your
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people, your niche are coming with you as you're transitioning as well.
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And you've made it really clear through your writing that despite taking a two year
sabbatical, your own cycles of burnout continued to turn up and make themselves present.
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So I'm curious to know, a clue on how you can apprehend that now?
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Have you kind of worked that out?
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Sorry, I'm just looking for the miracle cure by the way.
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Yeah, no, I think it's such a vital question because, you know, it's like we all come with
our particular patterns and what's been, you know, culturally instilled in us, you know,
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in our families as well.
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These expectations we have for ourselves, our ways of being.
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And I think for many of us who are entrepreneurs, like we have a lot of creative energy
and we also have high standards and expectations for ourselves.
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And there can be, you know, a bit of a workaholic kind of part of it, you know, because
there is sort of, you know, it's just us, you know, often, or at least initially, you
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know, to get this business off the ground, to find our people, all of that.
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And, you know, my journey, my calling into this work,
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initially came in my early 20s when I spiraled down into chronic fatigue.
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And so that journey of self-healing and learning and discovering what is it that's
actually supporting me feeling more alive and vital in my life has just been an ongoing,
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know, arc of healing and learning for my whole life.
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And different life stages have brought different aspects of that learning.
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uh And it's what I bring to my clients and to the groups I work with.
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I say all the time, it's like, I'm on the journey too.
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I'm a human being walking this path too.
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And yet I've learned a lot of things along the way to share.
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And those have translated into the nine keys that I bring forward in my books and into the
programs that I offer.
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But it's been a humbling journey too, because like you said,
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I had that initial chronic fatigue in my 20s and then I graduated from naturopathic
medical school and the next year I had another phase of chronic fatigue.
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And then, you know, I birthed my book, you know,
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a cycle of burnout came after birthing the book and really I call it my postpartum time
and just an acknowledgement of, okay, like my energy was so outward, outward, outward and
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it became unbalanced with kind of the deeper journey for me at that time in my life, which
included really yearning to become a mom and needing to kind of realign home environment
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where, what I was focusing on.
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to bring more balance, the work part had become kind of out of balance and I the feedback
from that.
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yeah, um so guess I just wanna say, you know, it's not like the lesson comes once and then
it's like, we've got it all figured out for the rest of our life because we just keep
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evolving and our life circumstances keep changing and the chronic fatigue and then, you
burnout has been part of my learning and
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And at this phase, there's such a deeper understanding of the feedback that's there and
such a deeper commitment to slowing down, being gentle, kind, and honoring of whatever my
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truth is, of where my energy's at and what my needs are.
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And to keep calling it out when I set that expectation bar really high and it's not
actually in alignment with the realities of
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of my vitality and state of being or needs at that time.
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And energy is such a difficult concept until you've experienced fluctuating energy or the
pit of energylessness.
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Yes.
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Yep.
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I got all of that out.
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But because we kind of expect that we have the same energy bank every day, we kind of
expect that we're like, you know, someone we go to sleep and we get plugged in and we wake
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up and we're going to feel exactly the same we did on our best day.
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But I have not experienced that.
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like my sleep can be affected.
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My going to sleep can be affected.
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What I did two days ago can affect what's happening for me today.
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What I did six months ago can be affecting me today.
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How I'm thinking about the future can be affecting my energy levels today.
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So I think we've kind of oversimplified our capacity for energy and what that means on a
day-to-day basis.
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So I really appreciate hearing so.
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10 years ago, if I heard you say honoring yourself, I would have gone, here we go.
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Another woo woo person talking about stuff that I don't need to know about.
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Whereas now I'm like, yeah, I have to honor where I'm at today.
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So how do you do that?
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Do you work one on one with clients?
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Like, do you have appointments set out in your schedule?
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There's nothing ahead everybody.
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That's good.
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I have a mix.
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Right now, I work virtually one-on-one.
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So I have that part-time about half the week, and then I also do group work with women,
and both virtual and in-person and retreat-based as well.
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So my passion is more of the group work, but I love having that smaller clientele of the
one-on-one as well.
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So then my question to you is as somebody who has struggled with fluctuating energy, on
the days where you have to show up, how do you honor yourself when you're not feeling at
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your best?
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Yes, well, I love that.
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Now, it's such a good question.
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And it's so important for all of us who are in serving professions, right?
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You know, mean, occasionally there's times where it's just like, you know, I need to say,
you know, this is a wellness day for me.
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And I reschedule people.
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That doesn't happen very often.
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But I just want to name that that that's actually an option for us.
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We don't need to always push through everything.
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But I also have found, and I think it's just because fatigue and energy has been sort of
my deeper teacher in just what my life has been, that there's a way that I've come to be
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able to kind of ground in and simply show up with whatever energy I'm at and still be very
present with people.
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I mean, even I'll just acknowledge this week, like my sleep has been really poor this
week.
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and it's been kind of a transitional time for me.
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I've been feeling, you know, kind of tender and, I just, you know, and it's like, here I
am on this podcast.
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You know, and it's just this, this is me.
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This is me in this moment.
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And I think the more that I've been able to just relax in and really accept the truth of
how I'm feeling and how I am.
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It's like, then I'm able to just sort of be in it and show up.
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00:17:01,671
It's when I put this pressure on myself that I'm supposed to be a certain way or I'm not
supposed to have circles under my eyes or I'm supposed to be boundless energy.
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That's when there's this inner tension in me that even gets in the way of me being present
with other people.
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I just feel like what people least it with the way that I work with people.
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Yeah, it's most connecting to just show up as we are and to be real with one another.
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Not that I need to, I don't make it about me or sort of bring in details of what I'm
navigating, but it's just that felt sense of like, here I am, I get it.
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oh I get it that there's hard days and yeah, and that sometimes we're just, yeah, not
feeling as inspired as other times.
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vital because you talk about vitality a lot so you're not feeling as vital.
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Thank you so much for letting me spring that question on you.
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I think that's really important because there's so many of us doing back-to-back client
work whether it's in one-on-one or small groups or coaching wherever you have an
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appointment where there's pressure on you to turn up.
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I know I get conflicted by this as well and and I just make it really clear to people now
it's like
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there will be days when I can't turn up because it's not going to be good for you and it's
certainly not going to be good for me.
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00:18:24,240
And if that's not something you can handle in this therapeutic or in this coaching
relationship, well then I'm not the right person for you.
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00:18:34,786
So I set that up right at the beginning, but being able to acknowledge that one of the
most profound gifts that we bring to our clients is being present.
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Yes.
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Like we all know that, but we often don't think it's enough.
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Yes.
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Right.
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Yes.
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Because we've been taught all these ABC, CBT, a whatever's.
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I mean, you've got more letters after your name.
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There's a lot of letters after Deborah's name, but you know, our clients really don't care
about that.
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They care that we're there with them.
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Yes.
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That we, that we see them and that we hear them.
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Yes.
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And I just, I love the way you explain.
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expressed your experience of that because it was like, just comes back to being present.
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00:19:21,520
If that's all we need to do today, if I'm feeling low, if I'm reeling because of what I've
seen in the media, if my kids have been less than delightful this morning or they've kept
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00:19:27,272
me awake all night or there's other stuff going on my family, so my commitment today is to
be present.
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I just think that's powerful.
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Yes, it's the foundation of it all.
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00:19:36,864
You know, that's the foundation of a healing relationship.
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00:19:47,960
And you know, the other thing I just want to emphasize too, that has been really important
and which touches back into what we were speaking to before, is that if I'm engaging in
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00:19:57,934
work that isn't really aligned for me, it's going to be so much harder for me to show up
on days where I haven't gotten good sleep or I'm feeling less vital.
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Whereas when it's really aligned, actually feel like it, it feeds back and it nourishes
me.
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So I actually come alive and it sort of is an awakening thing.
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You know, it just like, brings me more present.
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I'm, I'm vitalized if that's word, you by, by that, that work.
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00:20:25,378
And I find that all the time where it's like, I might wake up feeling a little bit like,
ah, and then I show up, you know, I do my grounding and I show up.
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00:20:31,980
And then, yeah, my state shifts and I'm in a completely different place in orientation.
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The way I describe that is find the work that nourishes you.
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00:20:41,805
it might not look the same in your twenties as it does in your fifties, because it
certainly doesn't look the same for me.
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00:20:49,067
But then I would also suggest that I wasn't working in a way that nourished myself in my
twenties because I was just working hard.
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oh But, but we have those skills, that knowledge now, and this work is hard working with
people.
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00:21:06,547
is hard and we are living in a world where stuff is coming at us as humans every minute of
the day.
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00:21:15,674
I don't know about you but when I was training that wasn't in the textbooks, that wasn't
in my practical guides, that wasn't in my supervision sessions.
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00:21:20,877
We were taught one person was going to come with one issue at one time.
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That is not reality.
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That is not the human experience.
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no wonder we feel incompetent, right?
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I've just had a thought as well.
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It's like, weren't really prepared for this.
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00:21:46,543
I know that the pandemic actually taught us how incompetent we can be but also how we, as
the health professionals will just turn up.
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00:21:50,088
We would, yeah, anyway, we were the ones keeping communities together.
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00:21:50,868
That was us.
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00:21:51,729
We did that.
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Yay us.
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We're cool.
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00:21:54,060
We're awesome.
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That's what we do.
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00:21:58,752
Thank you for sharing that little rumination with me.
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00:22:10,198
So the second thing that I've really, I noticed about your online presence and getting to
know you and preparing for today's conversation was you have used media extremely well.
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00:22:13,212
So from somebody who didn't have a clue who you were,
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00:22:17,125
the way you have used media, not just in the way it's represented on your website.
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00:22:18,576
Like I still have to go and find it.
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00:22:21,438
It's like there's a little tab at the top and I thought, I'm curious.
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00:22:22,269
What have you been doing?
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00:22:32,736
Like, yes, there's a lot of logos there, but then going deeper than that and actually
working out that you've actually spent the time to go, well, where are the people I love
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00:22:42,582
to serve hiding and how can I talk to them or communicate with them in a way that's not
buy my stuff?
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00:22:44,085
yelling at them.
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00:22:56,977
So the interviews and the way you've been quoted and the things that you talk about and
even in the way you've promoted your book, it's not incongruent with how you turn up on
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00:22:58,469
the rest of your website.
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00:23:03,703
Quite often I see health professionals doing this and has this huge disconnect.
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00:23:09,858
It's like, I'm here, I'm kind, I'm lovely, I want to help you, but I'm also with the
media.
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00:23:13,979
you're like, there's this, it's almost like a disparate thing.
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00:23:23,593
talking about your media experience, was that a deliberate strategy on your behalf to go
to the media that way or did it just emerge?
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00:23:27,058
Yeah, no, no, thank you for those reflections.
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00:23:30,718
I, it's been an ongoing learning process for me.
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00:23:38,418
think just innately in terms of personality, I'm not a self promoter.
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00:23:43,998
And yeah, there's, there's a discomfort there of kind of coming out and being seen.
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00:23:50,218
So it's that there's been a lot of healing and learning for me and, having my own business
in those ways.
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00:23:52,378
And, and for me, like,
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00:23:56,009
part of that learning has been, how do I come out?
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00:24:03,981
How do I speak to a larger audience in a way that feels congruent and true to myself?
290
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00:24:08,082
And also learning what repels me.
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00:24:12,204
So not wanting to do the things that repel me, right?
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00:24:15,795
Yeah, I guess I just feel like I want to speak to people's hearts.
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00:24:20,527
I want to speak to their pain and their yearnings and
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00:24:25,027
share my own vulnerable journey when it's supportive.
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00:24:30,747
yeah, so I want to like, again, what I was saying before, like connect human to human.
296
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00:24:40,927
And so, yeah, trying to do that through my writing, you know, in articles and in my books
and trying to do that with videos.
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00:24:49,543
I actually, really love like the podcast and interview realm too, because I feel like I
just get to show up.
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00:24:56,423
and be in conversation and see what emerges and be real to the best of my ability in the
moment.
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00:24:59,888
And again, I just feel like that's what's needed in the world.
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00:25:14,195
And I think in the past, especially earlier in my business journey, when there was a
feeling of scarcity or how do I get people to enroll or engage?
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00:25:23,668
There was, you know, sometimes deferring to other, like marketing advice and other
people's opinions about it that, yeah, felt kind of yucky.
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00:25:29,649
And, you know, I didn't do a lot of that, but it's just like enough where it's like, no,
that's not, that's not for me.
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00:25:39,535
And maybe it works, you know, for some people and, know, if you look at the numbers, but
you know, what's most important to me is that the people who engage with my work.
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00:25:53,099
you know, are doing so in a way that feels connected and nourishing and kind of, you know,
it's like a lot of my messages are about really feeling grounded and connected to
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00:26:04,959
ourselves and aligned with our yes and that we're able to turn towards ourselves with
kindness and love and, and really guide ourselves with that self discernment and
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00:26:05,959
awareness.
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00:26:07,019
So like,
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00:26:20,367
if my messaging is bombarding people's nervous systems and creating sort of a stress
response in how needing to make a decision or engaging or something like that, doesn't,
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00:26:22,417
yeah, there's not a congruence there.
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00:26:31,420
this conversation I like, because I was one of those people who went, will follow the
marketing advice and do it the marketing advisor's way with very, very little success.
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00:26:39,847
I talk about my $100,000 in one year marketing mistake because of that tendency.
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00:26:46,308
And it was because I was being taught sales techniques that just didn't flow with my
integrity.
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00:26:48,268
It's like, actually, I don't know.
314
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00:26:51,348
I don't want you to go into debt to work with me.
315
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00:26:52,908
Don't like that for the...
316
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00:26:55,388
So I'm not going to go and ask you to borrow money.
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00:26:57,408
I don't want that pressure on me.
318
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00:27:05,288
And then it was like, I want to give you the option to pull out and not have to pay me
anymore because I really don't like this sense of being stuck.
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00:27:06,428
it...
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00:27:11,708
But, you know, they're And so it's hard to navigate that, especially when you're new.
321
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00:27:11,828
Right.
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00:27:15,512
So sometimes we do have to try it and work out.
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00:27:16,953
this isn't for me.
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00:27:20,456
And then I guess be brave enough or courageous enough to go, no, I don't like this.
325
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00:27:21,547
I'm going to find another way.
326
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00:27:22,738
Yeah.
327
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00:27:24,180
That's very cool.
328
00:27:24,180 -->
00:27:28,405
did did you use a resource or did you apply to media outlets?
329
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00:27:32,799
Like how, how did you get picked up to do, these media presentations?
330
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00:27:33,769
Hmm.
331
00:27:34,129 -->
00:27:36,390
Well, different things at different times.
332
00:27:36,390 -->
00:27:51,744
um at the time of gearing up for my book launch and then after my book launch, so around
2016, I did hire some people to kind of help me out with that outreach, um both, you know,
333
00:27:51,744 -->
00:28:00,578
to set up interviews as well as to help with the discernment around where to pitch
articles and some of the refinement around the articles.
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00:28:01,338
So
335
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00:28:05,810
That's definitely something I've learned a lot in my business is and just life.
336
00:28:05,810 -->
00:28:11,794
eh I'm such a big proponent like lean in, let's get our team of support.
337
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00:28:14,416
It's absolutely vital.
338
00:28:15,457 -->
00:28:22,984
Just having those people that feel resonant, that we trust to offer that kind of support.
339
00:28:22,984 -->
00:28:28,950
That was a big push at that time that generated a lot of the media on my website.
340
00:28:28,990 -->
00:28:41,810
And then more recently hired a podcast, I don't even know what to call it, but a podcast
service to sort of help to pitch me to different podcasts and really appreciate that too.
341
00:28:41,850 -->
00:28:47,370
you know, it just like help with, you know, spreading the word about what I have to offer.
342
00:28:47,370 -->
00:28:52,956
And then if there's a resonance, then I get to make direct contact with people like you.
343
00:28:52,956 -->
00:28:55,738
Yeah, and that's how we got connected.
344
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00:29:05,697
So you had somebody reach out on my behalf, my business manager went, hey, I think this
person would be a great fit for what you want to do with the next season of the podcast.
345
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00:29:08,869
I spent some time reading about you, reading what I could about you.
346
00:29:08,869 -->
00:29:11,541
And they went, I would really like to meet this person.
347
00:29:11,541 -->
00:29:12,573
And look, here we are.
348
00:29:12,573 -->
00:29:18,537
the two things that came up for me then was number one, you're not afraid to say, help,
can I have some help?
349
00:29:18,588 -->
00:29:20,244
So vital, yes.
350
00:29:20,721 -->
00:29:24,582
But we're kind of led to believe that we can do it all.
351
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00:29:25,842
We can do it all.
352
00:29:25,842 -->
00:29:27,202
We can do it all.
353
00:29:27,202 -->
00:29:29,062
We should do it all.
354
00:29:29,062 -->
00:29:31,242
We have to do it all.
355
00:29:31,242 -->
00:29:42,342
But no, but I think the clarity, the second piece I want to talk into is a lot of people
get poor results when they delegate or they engage other service providers because they
356
00:29:42,342 -->
00:29:48,474
haven't done the work on what am I trying to achieve here and who am I?
357
00:29:48,474 -->
00:29:50,355
in trying to achieve this.
358
00:29:50,655 -->
00:29:57,458
So until we get those questions answered, and it's not a service provider's job to tell us
that, right?
359
00:29:57,659 -->
00:29:59,606
That's the work we need to do.
360
00:29:59,606 -->
00:30:07,536
So we don't get put in front of men in Hong Kong because that would be not the Deborah
Zucker fit, right?
361
00:30:08,417 -->
00:30:11,398
Chinese businessmen is not your fit.
362
00:30:11,398 -->
00:30:18,302
The same as Jo shouldn't be working with people who have drug and alcohol addiction
problems because I'm too parental.
363
00:30:18,302 -->
00:30:20,423
They don't need that from me.
364
00:30:20,423 -->
00:30:28,518
But everybody who hears my title as rehab, most people who have never heard of the title
rehab counselor will go, oh, so you work with people with addictions.
365
00:30:28,518 -->
00:30:32,610
I'm like, oh, heck no.
366
00:30:32,610 -->
00:30:34,401
I am not the person for those people.
367
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00:30:37,978
Like I will gladly help them find a much better fit for them.
368
00:30:37,978 -->
00:30:49,198
But if we don't know that about ourselves, and like Deborah has shared with us, it
emerges, it grows, it evolves, it transitions, it changes over time.
369
00:30:49,798 -->
00:30:54,738
So how you and I turned up in 2016, was reflecting back to me in 2016 then.
370
00:30:55,798 -->
00:30:58,618
It's very different to the way we show up today, right?
371
00:30:58,618 -->
00:31:00,638
You've now got a five-year-old.
372
00:31:02,258 -->
00:31:04,876
I have a 25-year-old.
373
00:31:04,876 -->
00:31:09,423
Yeah, very different.
374
00:31:09,768 -->
00:31:10,729
Yes.
375
00:31:10,741 -->
00:31:11,822
Very cool.
376
00:31:11,822 -->
00:31:12,893
great reflections.
377
00:31:12,893 -->
00:31:14,664
Thank you so much for that.
378
00:31:15,565 -->
00:31:24,832
I really do want to ask how did you get Elizabeth Gilbert from the Pray Love fame to give
you an endorsement?
379
00:31:24,832 -->
00:31:26,773
Like I'm sitting there going is that the real?
380
00:31:26,773 -->
00:31:28,445
Yes, look that's her photo.
381
00:31:28,445 -->
00:31:29,516
Wow.
382
00:31:29,516 -->
00:31:30,146
How did that?
383
00:31:30,146 -->
00:31:32,649
Because yes, I've written a book and
384
00:31:32,993 -->
00:31:39,155
The idea of going to really famous people that I admire greatly was terrible.
385
00:31:39,155 -->
00:31:41,309
Like even now I can feel my stomach clenching.
386
00:31:41,309 -->
00:31:44,083
So I'm curious to know how you did that.
387
00:31:44,385 -->
00:31:45,246
Yes.
388
00:31:45,246 -->
00:31:49,528
so I mentioned before, had sort of people helping me with the book launch.
389
00:31:49,548 -->
00:31:56,862
And one of those people was helping with kind of the pre book launch around seeking
endorsements for the book.
390
00:31:56,862 -->
00:32:02,845
he kind of helped me create a spreadsheet of people that might be resonant, including very
big names.
391
00:32:03,086 -->
00:32:09,260
And I just sent direct emails to this huge long list.
392
00:32:09,260 -->
00:32:17,583
of people with a pitch in telling what I'm doing and what my book's about and asking for
endorsement.
393
00:32:17,583 -->
00:32:24,747
And so I did that and I got a lot of both bigger and smaller name endorsers that way.
394
00:32:24,747 -->
00:32:32,870
And then I also at one point, I think it was a Facebook post I put out, here's sort of a
wish list.
395
00:32:33,458 -->
00:32:39,104
of names or types of bigger names that I would love to have endorse my book.
396
00:32:39,104 -->
00:32:49,870
Does anyone out here in my network have any connections to these people or people similar
to them who might really resonate with what I'm offering in the Vitality Map?
397
00:32:50,010 -->
00:32:54,193
And oh one of my friends came back and said, I'm friends with Elizabeth Gilbert.
398
00:32:54,193 -->
00:32:58,295
Would you like me to reach out to her on your behalf?
399
00:32:58,295 -->
00:32:59,967
And I said, yes, please.
400
00:32:59,967 -->
00:33:00,824
you
401
00:33:01,028 -->
00:33:07,177
And yeah, and Liz Gilbert was very generous and wrote back with an endorsement for my
book.
402
00:33:07,513 -->
00:33:15,394
Yeah, the courage that it takes, because I've been in those rooms where people say, let's
generate the wish list.
403
00:33:15,394 -->
00:33:17,354
Very good at generating the wish list.
404
00:33:17,354 -->
00:33:21,034
Very good at going and researching and finding how to connect with those people.
405
00:33:21,074 -->
00:33:23,854
Terrible at pressing send on an email.
406
00:33:25,134 -->
00:33:28,794
That's the bit where I go, oh, hands, hands, hands, hands.
407
00:33:28,794 -->
00:33:30,894
No, think I'm sure something needs.
408
00:33:30,998 -->
00:33:33,849
uh what else say?
409
00:33:33,849 -->
00:33:38,781
Because I've recently been in the process again, because I have this new book coming out.
410
00:33:38,841 -->
00:33:43,412
And my experience this time, having done it once before, was really different.
411
00:33:43,412 -->
00:33:45,263
I felt way more comfortable.
412
00:33:45,263 -->
00:33:47,524
And there was something that shifted inside.
413
00:33:47,524 -->
00:33:50,525
And I'm just going to name this in case it's helpful for others.
414
00:33:50,525 -->
00:33:54,206
Just remembering these are just other people.
415
00:33:54,206 -->
00:33:54,447
And
416
00:33:54,447 -->
00:33:57,069
they had people helping them along the way too.
417
00:33:57,069 -->
00:34:01,573
Like no one gets to be a big name without people helping them along the way.
418
00:34:01,573 -->
00:34:13,263
And so like paying it back too, like I recently was asked for an endorsement and it's just
like such a joy of like, like to pay it back and support others in their emergence and
419
00:34:13,263 -->
00:34:14,803
their work too.
420
00:34:15,544 -->
00:34:16,845
Yeah, we need to support each other.
421
00:34:16,845 -->
00:34:23,643
And you know, it's just like, there's such a way that we can project all these things onto
people, particularly when they become bigger names, but
422
00:34:23,643 -->
00:34:25,683
They're just human beings on their own journeys.
423
00:34:25,683 -->
00:34:31,003
And just to remember that, like that helps me when I do the outreach.
424
00:34:31,003 -->
00:34:33,643
And also just that you never know.
425
00:34:33,643 -->
00:34:35,883
really never know.
426
00:34:35,883 -->
00:34:37,103
Nothing to lose.
427
00:34:37,103 -->
00:34:38,994
Nothing to lose by asking.
428
00:34:39,023 -->
00:34:44,528
Yeah, nothing to lose by asking and it's not a rejection of you personally if they don't
come back to you.
429
00:34:44,528 -->
00:34:48,211
Your email could be in their junk file, right?
430
00:34:48,211 -->
00:34:53,295
Or it could be in their PA's inbox and the PA's gone on six months maternity leave.
431
00:34:53,295 -->
00:34:55,897
Like, you know, these are the stories we don't tell ourselves.
432
00:34:55,897 -->
00:35:02,884
What we tell ourselves is I suck, I'm horrible, I'm awful, I failed, nobody loves me and I
shouldn't press publish.
433
00:35:02,884 -->
00:35:04,474
That's really unhelpful.
434
00:35:07,076 -->
00:35:18,200
In coming back to the media, I'm curious to know if you've ever noticed or if you've ever
thought, hmm, I see health professionals, maybe mental health professionals in the media a
435
00:35:18,200 -->
00:35:22,724
lot, And they're doing something that's really not great
436
00:35:24,626 -->
00:35:27,711
I Have you ever seen something like that come through?
437
00:35:29,005 -->
00:35:36,420
I don't have like a particular example in this moment, but what it brings to mind is what
we speaking to earlier.
438
00:35:36,420 -->
00:35:50,768
Like when I feel a lack of congruence or like the person's trying to prove something or
uphold an image of being the most vital person they can be, you know, but it's not
439
00:35:50,768 -->
00:35:51,508
grounded.
440
00:35:51,508 -->
00:35:54,550
It doesn't feel like connected to their being.
441
00:35:54,550 -->
00:36:04,090
those are the moments where I just sort of, it's not a full cringe, but just like a
feeling of like, I wanna feel you.
442
00:36:04,090 -->
00:36:06,310
I wanna feel who you are.
443
00:36:06,310 -->
00:36:12,910
And I wanna feel, yeah, this sense of your comfort in your own skin.
444
00:36:14,150 -->
00:36:19,010
And that just because we are helping professionals,
445
00:36:19,210 -->
00:36:25,836
doesn't mean that we are sort of up on high or need to be viewed as having gotten all,
446
00:36:31,670 -->
00:36:26,751
I'm
447
00:36:27,618 -->
00:36:29,636
Yeah, that we've gotten our shit together.
448
00:36:29,636 -->
00:36:41,246
You know, it's like, like, I think it's as we were saying before, like, it's it's more
connecting when we can just be our vulnerable real selves and, and share ourselves from
449
00:36:41,246 -->
00:36:42,488
that place.
450
00:36:42,709 -->
00:36:51,876
And not feel like we have to deny aspects of our journey or who we are or present a
particular image.
451
00:36:52,332 -->
00:36:53,532
Absolutely.
452
00:36:53,533 -->
00:37:03,177
And further to that, I would say this is a reminder for everybody that you're not in
therapy or in treatment if you're writing a media article.
453
00:37:03,177 -->
00:37:07,859
Like you don't have to treat that as a therapeutic relationship.
454
00:37:08,439 -->
00:37:14,762
People aren't in therapy or in treatment with you until they've said, could you please be
in treatment with me, right?
455
00:37:14,782 -->
00:37:20,012
But I still think that particularly mental health professionals still get really stuck.
456
00:37:20,012 -->
00:37:24,332
on what they can say in their marketing or how they should turn up in their marketing.
457
00:37:25,192 -->
00:37:31,132
Well, you need to turn up in your marketing, how you turn up in the room, but without your
treatment hat on.
458
00:37:31,132 -->
00:37:40,752
it's letting people know, it's like the reason why I can speak into energy and the reason
I can speak into transitions is because I've been doing this work myself.
459
00:37:41,192 -->
00:37:47,830
And then I've gone to school for many, many years and learned some theories and learned
some methods and.
460
00:37:47,830 -->
00:38:00,563
well, some ways of thinking that helps support what I've learned I think this day and age,
people are not as interested in our white coats as they are in our unmasked faces.
461
00:38:00,563 -->
00:38:01,130
Yeah.
462
00:38:01,130 -->
00:38:01,940
Yes, yes.
463
00:38:01,940 -->
00:38:02,781
Well said.
464
00:38:02,781 -->
00:38:03,920
Well said.
465
00:38:03,920 -->
00:38:04,491
Yeah.
466
00:38:04,491 -->
00:38:07,063
And you know, and I would I would add to that too.
467
00:38:07,063 -->
00:38:14,407
It's like it doesn't mean that we need to bear our souls and share all the details because
that's not appropriate.
468
00:38:14,688 -->
00:38:26,425
But you can give enough of of an understanding of the depth of your journey or whatever it
is you've navigated that relates to how you support people so that they can feel this
469
00:38:26,425 -->
00:38:29,164
sense of, you've walked the path like
470
00:38:29,164 -->
00:38:30,404
you have a sense of this.
471
00:38:30,404 -->
00:38:34,924
And like you said, you've then had this calling to get this training.
472
00:38:35,493 -->
00:38:36,473
That's great.
473
00:38:36,473 -->
00:38:38,133
What a great conversation.
474
00:38:38,353 -->
00:38:41,233
So I'm going to ask a very different question now.
475
00:38:41,233 -->
00:38:46,733
I'm curious to know what your number one struggle with being an entrepreneur.
476
00:38:48,538 -->
00:38:50,689
I mean, think we've touched into it a little bit already.
477
00:38:50,689 -->
00:38:59,806
It's just that ongoing balance of, especially now, like this is a new phase for me in my
work with a little one at home.
478
00:38:59,987 -->
00:39:12,595
And just the balance of how much devotion to my work and how much devotion to myself and
my daughter and my husband and just family life and just to...
479
00:39:12,595 -->
00:39:14,096
Yeah, sort of rein in.
480
00:39:14,096 -->
00:39:24,871
I have all these creative ideas all the time for new programs and ways to engage and
putting this out there and that, you know, and just to rein it in to feel like what's the
481
00:39:24,871 -->
00:39:26,982
most essential thing right now?
482
00:39:28,883 -->
00:39:37,983
how do I, yeah, sort of do the amount that's appropriate now, knowing that all these
things can come in the future, but just...
483
00:39:37,983 -->
00:39:42,515
um That's been key, which is part of my journey with burnout in the past.
484
00:39:42,515 -->
00:39:56,913
And connected to that is the need to lean in for support, to find the right people so that
I'm engaging with what really brings me alive and I can guide others in engaging and doing
485
00:39:56,913 -->
00:40:02,877
the parts of my business that they're really good at, that actually are more depleting for
me.
486
00:40:03,872 -->
00:40:07,587
Yes, I'm just going to give a big shout out to anybody who's a bookkeeper.
487
00:40:07,737 -->
00:40:09,968
because that is depleting for me.
488
00:40:09,968 -->
00:40:17,440
Any detailed work is depleting for me, but bookkeeping especially, I'm just like, I'm
going to make mistakes and it's about money.
489
00:40:17,440 -->
00:40:19,982
Anyway, we get into that whole cycle.
490
00:40:19,982 -->
00:40:23,823
I appreciate that whole creativity that comes up so often.
491
00:40:23,823 -->
00:40:27,484
I've got this thing and that thing and this thing, and so many half finished things over
here.
492
00:40:27,484 -->
00:40:30,425
And then my daughter turns up and I'm like, I'd forgotten about you.
493
00:40:30,425 -->
00:40:33,507
And then it's my husband turns up and I'm like, hello, hi.
494
00:40:33,507 -->
00:40:34,958
It's kind of easy.
495
00:40:34,958 -->
00:40:38,289
know for me, I spent a lot of years hiding in my work.
496
00:40:38,289 -->
00:40:42,352
It was easier to be at work than address the things that really needed to be addressed.
497
00:40:42,352 -->
00:40:45,263
That doesn't serve you well into your midlife.
498
00:40:45,263 -->
00:40:46,274
Let me share that with you.
499
00:40:46,274 -->
00:40:49,375
making sure that we've got the right supports.
500
00:40:49,375 -->
00:40:53,587
So it doesn't mean you have to go and spend all your money on all your supports.
501
00:40:53,587 -->
00:40:59,740
It means getting the right supports for right now, which again comes back to knowing who
you are.
502
00:40:59,772 -->
00:41:03,174
and why you're turning up to do the things you want to do.
503
00:41:03,174 -->
00:41:05,315
Otherwise we spread ourselves way too thin.
504
00:41:05,315 -->
00:41:07,037
Yes, don't be Jo hashtag.
505
00:41:07,037 -->
00:41:11,990
Don't be Jo.
506
00:41:11,990 -->
00:41:16,042
So you're in your you're talking to me from Washington state.
507
00:41:16,042 -->
00:41:17,803
So I can ask this question.
508
00:41:17,803 -->
00:41:25,938
If we ever had the privilege of being able to meet in real life and we went to a cafe,
what am I ordering for you?
509
00:41:27,179 -->
00:41:28,600
At a cafe.
510
00:41:30,220 -->
00:41:32,156
Is it, are we having a drink or are having?
511
00:41:32,156 -->
00:41:33,219
are having a drink.
512
00:41:33,219 -->
00:41:34,883
Yes, we're having a warm beverage.
513
00:41:34,883 -->
00:41:38,691
I know when it was shooting you drink coffee, but we're having a warm beverage.
514
00:41:38,834 -->
00:41:44,183
Yeah, I would probably get something like Tulsi tea or rooibos tea
515
00:41:44,294 -->
00:41:45,595
Okay, excellent.
516
00:41:45,595 -->
00:41:46,867
might have to write that down.
517
00:41:46,867 -->
00:41:49,154
rooibos tea I'm gonna have to go learn that one.
518
00:41:49,154 -->
00:41:50,185
Excellent.
519
00:41:50,185 -->
00:41:51,316
Beautiful.
520
00:41:51,316 -->
00:41:52,417
But now I know, see?
521
00:41:52,417 -->
00:41:53,078
So that's easy.
522
00:41:53,078 -->
00:41:56,731
We don't have to have that uncomfortable conversation when we get to meet each other.
523
00:41:56,792 -->
00:41:58,574
So Deborah is there.
524
00:41:58,574 -->
00:42:01,377
How do we get a hold of your book and the new book that's coming out?
525
00:42:01,377 -->
00:42:03,068
Like, how do we find that?
526
00:42:03,638 -->
00:42:07,000
Well, my website is vitalmedicine.com.
527
00:42:07,000 -->
00:42:09,932
So all my programs and my books are on there.
528
00:42:09,932 -->
00:42:14,105
You can also look on Amazon or order from any bookstore.
529
00:42:14,105 -->
00:42:16,507
The first book is called The Vitality Map.
530
00:42:16,507 -->
00:42:22,640
And the second book that's coming out next month is The Vitality Journal, which is a
companion book to The Vitality Map.
531
00:42:23,061 -->
00:42:27,692
And of course we will have links and resources and everything you want to be able to find
that.
532
00:42:27,692 -->
00:42:36,855
And so all you need to do is come and find on my emails, on my social media pages, or even
on the show notes of this website, which isn't helpful for those of you who are driving
533
00:42:36,855 -->
00:42:44,477
right now, but you know, just come back and say, I've got to go find Jo's last podcast
episode, which is why you should be subscribing people.
534
00:42:44,477 -->
00:42:46,048
That'll make life easier for you.
535
00:42:46,048 -->
00:42:47,448
See what I did there?
536
00:42:47,448 -->
00:42:48,888
That was cheeky.
537
00:42:50,399 -->
00:42:54,333
Deborah, this has been an absolutely wonderful conversation.
538
00:42:54,333 -->
00:43:00,661
Many thanks to your family for giving us the time to be able to do this because I'm pretty
sure this is your evening.
539
00:43:00,661 -->
00:43:04,834
And I wish you every success with the new journal as it comes out.
540
00:43:04,834 -->
00:43:08,560
And I look forward to seeing it, holding it and using it.
541
00:43:08,560 -->
00:43:10,572
So thank you very much for today.
542
00:43:10,798 -->
00:43:12,352
Thank you so much, Jo.
543
00:43:12,340 -->
00:43:21,999
If today's conversation gave you language, reassurance, or even a quiet acknowledgement
of, my God, it's not just me, then this episode has done its job.
544
00:43:21,999 -->
00:43:32,700
The Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast exists because the future of healthcare depends on
clinicians who are supported, resourced, and able to stay in the work without losing
545
00:43:32,700 -->
00:43:33,412
themselves.
546
00:43:33,412 -->
00:43:40,247
If you would like to support the continuation of these conversations, you can do that
through Buy Me a Coffee.
547
00:43:40,247 -->
00:43:48,595
It's a simple way to help cover the real costs of producing this podcast and to keep it
accessible to clinicians all around the world.
548
00:43:48,595 -->
00:43:56,032
And if you're listening as a service provider who supports health professionals, there's
also a space for thoughtful values aligned sponsorship.
549
00:43:56,032 -->
00:44:00,386
The kind that adds to the conversation rather than interrupting it.
550
00:44:00,386 -->
00:44:06,922
For clinicians, service providers, healthcare professionals around the world, the work you
do matters.
551
00:44:06,922 -->
00:44:08,914
The way you do it matters.
552
00:44:08,914 -->
00:44:18,230
And the profession needs clinicians who are willing to think differently about
sustainability, capacity, and care for themselves and for others.
