Everest Coverage: Icefall Holdup and South Side Action

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If you use supplemental oxygen at any point of an expedition from leaving home to returning home, so I would include going to the hospital in Kathmandu and getting put on oxygen for your frostbite or whatever it is, you failed at climbing that mountain without supplemental oxygen.
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So that's my line.
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And I'm Sam Key Kepper.
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In each episode, we'll unpack exhilarating stories, share invaluable insights, and get up close and personal with some of the most experienced and passionate guides and athletes in the industry.
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Whether you're a seasoned alphabet or a weekend warrior, the Duffel Shuffle is your ticket to the thrilling world of climbing, skiing, and mountaineering.
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Join us.
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All right, welcome back.
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Episode 53 of the Duffel Shuffle podcast.
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Adrian, how's it going?
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It's going great.
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How's it going for you?
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It's good.
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Yeah.
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You know, Tahoe's beautiful right now.
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It's uh doesn't feel like April, but it's April and uh the weather feels a little bit more like May, which I'm not mad about.
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Yeah, certainly the snowpack, but we did get that little that was a real snowstorm last week.
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And I mean it was more coming this week, right?
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It was the third biggest snowfall of the season, I think.
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And one I think we we've had like now the snowiest April in quite a few years, and it's only April 19th.
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Yep, exactly.
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And more precip, and you know, but I like I think that is very spring to me.
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Like the spring is the time of year in Tahoe where we have like normally great spring skiing, and then you get these random like one to two and a half feet of snow on top, and it lasts for two days and then it's back to spring skiing.
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Yeah, so that felt very like par for the course.
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Um, even May, I've I've seen a foot of snow at lake level in June.
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Uh, and so you know what's different is the fact that all the snow that it normally falls on is just completely gone.
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Yep.
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Exactly.
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You are exactly right.
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Still a wildly unique season.
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It's interesting because I think we're closing in on having an average season in terms of actual snowfall.
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And yet the way it fell with the rain events and things like that make it feel like we just don't have the base we normally do at this time.
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It's an interesting one.
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And yeah, those the storms that come now, they're so wild, right?
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Like we got, I don't know, a foot and a half at our house.
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They got three and a half feet on the mountain.
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I was, you know, watching my kid go sledding instead of skiing because my back still wasn't really allowing the skiing, but like literally went from like full winter epic sled session to like basically gone in 12 hours.
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It was totally amazing.
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Well, it falls on warm ground and the sun's super high in the sky, and it is what it is.
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But I see you're back in Vegas, and I know from Strava you've been climbing and playing tennis and running.
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So your back must be healing up pretty well.
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Yeah, I'm almost a month out, three and a half weeks, something like that.
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That's not even a February month.
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I'm calling it a month.
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So I know I'm not fully healed yet.
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I'm trying to be really conservative.
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So you're right, you're seeing those things, but like running is like more like walk jogging at those really slow paces and uh rock climbing.
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I'm still only top roping and just got outside for the first time yesterday, and it was like not great.
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Um, and then tennis, I'm playing with like the 72-year-olds that you know, I'm trying to channel them.
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Where if the ball comes to them, they're like pretty remarkably good tennis players.
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And if it's like three steps away, they don't get to it.
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And that seems to be about my mobility right now.
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But it's a start.
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Felt amazing.
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Yeah.
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I uh like I I'm a little plateaued right now.
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The first two weeks I was just getting so much better every day, and now I'm just kind of a little bit stuck, but overall, really happy.
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Like, you know, as as I've said on the podcast, it doesn't feel like it's not a long road by any means to as compared to pretty much any injury.
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And getting to be back down in Vegas, like this is like me and M's real happy place in the kind of like off seasons in Tahoe, kind of spring and fall.
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And uh it is just remarkable to be back down here.
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It it feels like you know, real spring down here, and of course the climbing's amazing, everything's in bloom because I think they got a bunch of this like late season rain.
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So, like our Joshua trees are just completely blowing up, the cactuses are all flowering, the dog's happy.
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I got to fly my plane.
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Uh, life is life is good.
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Right on.
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Well, for the listeners, before we dive into our news section, just kind of to give a heads up, we're gonna spend the next four episodes, this one included, um, covering Everest.
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So, you know, for the better part of the last two decades, you've been on the mountain outside of a handful of years.
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Um, and I think this year is unique.
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You were you were not planning to go to Everest to begin with, and now Alpenglow is actually not going due to the closure on the north side, but it puts you in a unique position to like be that armchair mountaineer that you've been hearing from your whole career, right?
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You now get to play that part.
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And so um, we're gonna kind of pause on guests for the next four episodes and and really dive into unpacking some of the news that comes out of Mount Everest.
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So um hope hopefully our listeners are excited for that.
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But uh before we do that, we'll dive into non-Everest news.
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What do you have for uh the week?
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Well, my non-Everest news, I think you called me out on this as we're prepping for this Everest.
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It's still got an Everest hook, you know, because I just I want to separate it from us, you know, armchair mountaineering about what's going on this season on the mountain.
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My news item is Jim Whitaker passing away uh almost two weeks ago now.
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Um, just this legendary force amongst American mountaineers, climbers, and mountain guides.
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I'm sure most people listening are are generally familiar, but uh Jim Whitaker was the first American in 1963 to summit Mount Everest.
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And he did that uh along this wild pathway of growing up in the Northwest, uh, starting to climb through the Boy Scouts and beginning to go to Mount Rainier really young.
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He ended up becoming the first employee of REI or the first full-time employee of REI, uh, you know, the equipment co-op that was started in the Northwest.
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And then through these series of building experiences, he ended up being invited to this team.
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He grew up with his twin brother, Lou Whitaker.
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And and Lou ultimately is the one who started Rainier Mountaineering Institute, RMI.
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And Jim was really connected and often guided, but also followed this other career with REI.
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And uh the two brothers, Lou and Jim, you know, really are responsible for a huge portion of, I'd say, the culture of the early culture of American mountain guiding, from starting in the 40s to founding RMI, which became like the place that all mountain guides went through.
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And they really adamantly encouraged guides to go start their own guide companies in other parts of the United States if they kind of outgrew RMI.
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So many of the guide companies that came about in the 70s and and even early 80s really came from the RMI culture.
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Legendary part of who we are and and and what we do.
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Um, and you know, from what I understand, lived uh I never met him, but uh, you know, from what I understand, I think he died at 97 years old after just uh, I mean, I'm using the word legendary a lot, but a legendary life of adventure and service and mentorship that has done so much for us as climbers.
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I didn't know him at all, but uh I think any time someone lives to 97, they've probably done some cool things in their life.
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And and certainly he uh takes the cake on that one.
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I mean, lots of climbing history and and uh a family, you know, his family has been so connected to climbing and guiding, um, like you said, in the Pacific Northwest for so long that the their the Whitaker name is just strong.
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And so yeah, incredible person, it sounds like absolutely.
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I I also love as I think about you know life and family and all these different things.
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He had this quote he often used when people asked him why he like wasn't climbing so much anymore and risk and all these things.
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He always had this line that his his goal was to die in bed with his television on, like with the television on in the background.
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And I think that more or less like is how he finished this like long and and really powerful uh life.
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So kudos.
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And of course, my thoughts with his family.
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Um, you know, I'm sure there's still a lot of loss around losing, you know, such a huge figure in in a family.
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Absolutely.
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What's your news?
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Well, yeah, you know, it's funny.
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Uh a couple weeks ago we recorded and and it totally just slipped my mind um to talk about our friends Cody and Tommy down in the eastern Sierras.
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Uh and so, you know, I wanted to bring up that in kind of mid-March, uh, Cody Townsend and Tommy Caldwell teamed up and they did the first ski climb winter um traverse of what's being called Norman's 13.
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And so a little background the Norman's 13 route is a traverse of the 13 14,000 foot peaks in the eastern Sierras.
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Um it doesn't include Mount Shasta, obviously.
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And it's kind of a nod to Nolan's 14, which is a similar distance and vertical gain traversed in Colorado.
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It's an interesting one to me for a number of reasons.
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You know, I had never really heard about Norman's 13 until Killian Journay um completed the the feat in as part of his big project this past September.
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And you know, that kind of put it on the radar for me.
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And I think obviously it's been on the radar for a little bit, but it's a rather new objective.
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I was looking back and uh all of its like uh there's only a handful of people that have completed it, and the the the earliest one was in 2019.
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So it's you know, in the last decade that this has actually been something that people have been attempting.
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Um and I think that alone is like interesting and cool because um so often I think for for people of my generation, all of these cool hard feats have already been established and it's about doing them differently.
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And so to have cool, new, unique hard feats still being created and thought up um is also inspiring and it it makes you think about what else is still out there to be done.
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Sometimes it can feel a little bit like all the cool stuff's already been found.
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We're like left to do it differently and unique.
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Um and so I think, you know, one, it's cool that this is like more of a new objective.
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And then Cody and and Tommy took it to a different level and they did it in winter with skis on their back, and there's a lot of climbing involved, and there's a lot of potential skiing involved, uh, but it is still a traverse, which is a lot more walking than skiing generally.
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But they did it in in a in a more unique style and something that's inspiring to me.
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And then, you know, just the fact that Tommy Caldwell is like a total climber, not a skier.
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Obviously, he grew up skiing, so he has a foundation.
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Cody Townsend is a total skier, not a climber.
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Exactly, exactly.
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But I was actually talking to Cody back in January.
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He was sharing that he had an objective that he was working with Tommy on and they were doing some prepping.
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And he he, you know, his analogy was like Cody is a 5'9 climber and a 5'14 skier, and Tommy is a 5'14 climber and a 5'9 skier.
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And it's kind of perfect because they can support each other in you know the their technical specialty, and they can also like you know follow well enough to where they can get through it together.
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So they did this awesome traverse, and you can learn more about it, I think, through Cody's and Tommy's social channels.
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It took them eight days, and I just looked, and Killian completed the traverse in summer in two days and some hours.
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So um a lot of room for an FK a winter FKT on that one.
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Absolutely.
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I yeah, and the cool thing is we're talking about Tommy and Cody.
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We shouldn't forget Bionna also joined them.
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So eventually I assume there will actually be a full film about this.
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So keep an eye out for that.
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And uh, you know, always worth shouting out the the filmmakers because you know, uh as far as I didn't climb everything they did, skied everything they did, did it with more weight, and had a whole nother job to do other than being funny in front of camera, which was pulling it out, getting the shots, capturing it, you know, maybe flying the drone, all the different things that go into that.
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As you know, being married to a uh filmmaker remarkable for Beyonne, you know, I think he's one of the few that could actually like achieve this right alongside those two, which is just so rad.
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Yeah, I I'm so psyched on on this project.
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You you hit on a bunch of really good points.
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I mean, I you know, I kind of like how you described Tommy and Cody because you know, ultimately, like this describes my relationship, right?
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Like that was that that's like the founding concept of me and Emily being a married couple and playing together.
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Is her talent.
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What are you and M doing next March?
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Is her talent as a climber and and mine as a big mountain skier and high altitude, and and like the fun that we get to have together and and the ways we can utilize each other's like skill sets.
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So um, you know, who knows?
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Maybe Tommy and Cody are gonna be spending a lot more time together.
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But it's uh it's really fun that they came together for this.
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We've talked before on this call, like Tommy moving to the Sierra, and just like, of course, he spent a lot of time here in Yosemite and the east side and see things like that, but just like completely diving headfirst into the lifestyle here and taking on a project like this with Cody, it just uh makes me super happy.
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He's also having like a wild winter, right?
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Like he also had a a like really standalone season down in Patagonia to have both that and this in one season, he is certainly not slowing down.
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And yeah, your point, like, you know, we've talked a lot on this podcast about how nutrition and and science and coaching and athleticism coming more and more into the mountain sports are gonna continue to allow for uh wild things that are hard to imagine to be done.
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And enchainments are a great example of that, like multiple peaks back to back to back to back.
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And uh I think, yeah, this was eight days, I think you said 150 days, I believe 40,000 feet of elevation gain, something like that.
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Uh, you know, rumor is there was some good skiing to be had, but you can also imagine, you know, they probably had 40, 50 pound packs, I would guess.
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And so, like, not very fun to ski with those light those packs.
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So, this is like a pure suffer fest technician versus like high quality skiing or rock climbing.
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Who wants to rock climb with a 50-pound pack on?
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In ski boots, potentially, and ski boots, like I think that's like I love suffer fests, and you know, both of these guys, I don't think they'd be offended by being called aging outdoor athletes.
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Like, that's where if you ramping up the suffering side versus the pure performance side is exactly where you can still uh accomplish wild firsts, wild things through suffering and strategy instead of pure just performance.
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Um, their their lifetime of experience, you know, can be utilized despite aging absolutely as you said, not me.
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I didn't say that.
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Sorry, boys.
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You know, like you can't in, you know, when you're young, you're in you're figuring it out.
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You can't you don't have all those techniques figured out.
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You don't know what works and what doesn't for your body.
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And so uh yeah, they're they're tapping into that next level.
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Absolutely.
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Rad rad project right in the backyard.
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And again, like two two dads, both who have kids, you know, Tommy's school-age kids, uh Cody, little less than school-age kid, and and being able to come up with a project like this, it really is rowdy.
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And I saw both of them the week after, and both like we're tired and very satisfied, and like we all strive to have those experiences, right?
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And to be able to have them in the backyard is is pretty rad.
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So thanks for thanks for inspiring us, Tommy and Katie.
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Yeah, and Beyonce.
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Awesome.
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All right.
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Well, coming up, we're gonna be diving into uh our first episode of our uh Everest armchair mountaineering.
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So my new role.
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Let's see what you can bring to the table.
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All right, welcome back.
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This is episode 53 of the Duffle Shuffle and our first of Armchair Mountaineering.
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Uh, we were recording this on April 19th, Sunday, April 19th.
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It'll be launching on Wednesday following.
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Uh, and so, you know, we're gonna dive right into what uh what armchair mountaineering looks like and and do our best at armchair mountaineering.
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Adrian, are you excited to like talk all about these things that you've lived for so long, but like from your home in re in Nevada?
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You know I am, of course.
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I mean, like Everest like wife doesn't want to hear about it.
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My kid doesn't want to hear about it.
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So, you know, I get a little release by talking shit with you for for an hour or so as the season goes on.
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It's like there's no way I'm not gonna be deeply involved, like in what's happening there, both because I care so much about the mountain, I have a lot of friends on the mountain, uh, a number of our Alpen Glow clients, when we canceled the North Side, are they on the South Side with other companies.
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And of course, we just like have such deep connections to the Sherpa and Guy community that every single day I'm I'm writing and and WhatsApping and things with people about the mountain.
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So it's fun to get to kind of like do these bi weekly raps, hopefully, and share some thoughts.
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But it's hard for me since you know it's only Southside this year, and everyone knows kind of the challenges I feel about the Southside, and I'm really concerned about the potential for accidents this year as every year.
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So, you know, I I feel a lot of concern about the season, and yet, like, I'm also really trying to go in.
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Like, I'm still such a believer in the power of experiences on Everest and how hard people have worked to get there, and then for the clients, and then also for the mountain guides and the professional athletes and the Shopa and the cooks who all depend on these seasons.
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Like, I want to go in also like honoring all that like excitement and how hard people have worked to be there and and really want to see it be a safe and and phenomenal, fun season.
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Yeah, and I mean it's good to acknowledge that this was a season that you weren't gonna be on the mountain for to begin with.
00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:03.759
It has to feel different than you expected it, given that Alping Glow doesn't have a team, but at the same time, you were planning to not be on the mountain regardless.
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.440
And so uh you are gonna be armchair mountaineering either way.
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.240
Yeah, and it certainly feels like time for that.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:16.319
Like I, you know, not that I couldn't guide Everest for another decade, I'm sure.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:21.680
Alpinglow has such a talented team of people, so, so excited and ready to be there.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.000
And I've had a lot of great years.
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:38.240
Um, and and I have things like family and and business that I'm really, really excited to be putting uh more of my energy into, which is just not possible when I go to mountains like Everest every year.
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:39.279
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:39.759
All right.
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:48.240
So I want to uh I want to talk about three things on Everest, but before we do, uh, we've got summits on Annapurna, on Dalagiri, and on Makalu.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.720
Um, is that feel early to you, or is that kind of right on time for those mountains?
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:53.920
Yeah, it's a great question.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.759
And Annapurna always happens early in the season.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.119
Over the years, people have found that the weather is actually more stable there.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:14.640
Annapurna has just heinous avalanche hazard many years, and it tends to be more stable earlier in the season when it's colder, before like pre-monsoonal storms start coming through and loading the snowpack.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.640
So, if anything, I felt like Annapona was actually getting a little late.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.680
People had tried to sum it a week or 10 days ago and it hadn't happened.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.240
They gotten shut down by a storm and had to back back down.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:38.799
Daliguria Makalu, it's early, but this is the new trend because of the primarily Nepali companies trying to operate multiple mountains and have clients go from mountain to mountain to mountain, and to have guides and Sherpa go from mountain to mountain to mountain.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:48.799
So rope fix, get camps in on one mountain, heli to the next one, keep building and allow clients to move and not do full expeditions.
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.680
So uh they caught a good window, and summits happened on all three.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.839
We don't have many details yet.
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.599
And I've been kind of like hitting up my friends in Captain Doo to try to find out more because.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:07.440
Some, you know, my mind obviously goes to like some people on all three mountains were attempting without supplemental oxygen.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:17.279
And that's this bar that uh while I, you know, I I respect and enjoy many different styles of summits, the no oxygen summits really stand out to me.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:22.160
And uh so I'm waiting to hear more about uh no oxygen summits on those mountains.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:31.279
But no accidents reported on summit pushes on on all three of those mountains, um, which would be unusual and and and a great thing.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:37.680
So congrats to the teams that pushed through and and got up those really hard peaks.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:49.200
So you spoke a little bit real quick to the uh you know the the weather being the primary driver of when these mountains are being summited, but also the fact that people are trying to go from mountain to mountain.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.559
And and that really is a new style of climbing in the Himalaya.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.799
Traditionally, it's like you're spending your entire season focused on one summit.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:07.920
And really in the last 10 years, less than 10 years, has the strategy been to, you know, go for a few because acclimatization works for all of them.
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:09.599
What's your take on that?
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:16.319
And and I'll kind of separate it for like professional athletes and then you know, commercial guiding.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.759
Is is there a difference there?
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:18.160
Yeah.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:29.519
I mean, my general take is it's it's awesome, provided we maintain a high standard of safety and kind of ethics to each of the to that style of climbing.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.960
You know, it just goes to show how far the world has gone.
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:47.599
In in 2011, to the best of my knowledge, myself and two Sherpa partners, Purbatashi and Lakwanuru, the three of us were the first people to make three 8,000 meter summits in one season.
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:55.920
We actually did it in like 14 days, and it was two summits of Everest and then one summit of Lotse, all in less than 14 days.
00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:05.680
And like, it was such a big deal in 2011, and news and media, and like for me, I just couldn't believe that we had pulled something off like that.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:07.839
And and I those were with oxygen.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:17.279
And I also remember like finishing that and like disappearing to Thailand and wanting to do nothing but like eat food and lie on a beach for for weeks afterwards.
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.319
Like it seemed like the pinnacle.
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:34.880
And 15 years later, three peaks on supplemental oxygen is being done by a handful of climbers a season, many of them non-professional climbers, along with the Sherpa supporting them.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:41.200
And obviously, many, you know, people are doing six and seven and eight back to back to back in one season.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.240
So the world is changing super fast.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:45.839
It has changed.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:25:12.160
The primary things making that possible are we've talked the, you know, nutrition, fitness, coaching, but also helicopter use and also much larger teams of Sherpa support who can establish um multiple, you know, mountains completely with everything ready when the enchainment, the peak bagger clients and sherpa come, guides everything's already ready, rope fixing.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:16.559
And then the last thing that's obviously helping this is more oxygen, higher oxygen flow.
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:24.559
Back in 2011, we're still climbing at two-liter flow per minute, which now is like archaic, you know, to a lot of people.
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:31.359
Now everyone's, or a vast majority of people are climbing on four-liter flow, and some companies are even offering six and eight-liter flow.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:37.039
So I guess the pure physicality of it is getting easier, but it still takes a lot of luck.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:48.240
Timing multiple weather windows that work out, not getting a gastro illness or an upper respiratory cough or something like that, um, dealing with exhaustion.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.000
Like it's still really hard.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.839
So that's why I think it should be celebrated and I think it's cool.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.039
It makes a lot of sense.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.039
You put all this time into acclimatization.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.079
Why not utilize it on multiple peaks if you're strong enough?
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:08.400
If there's one thing I worry about, it's whether the safety is there for the teams putting in the ropes and camps on each mountain.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:10.240
That's a big piece.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.440
Like they used when we would climb one mountain.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:27.519
The reason was so the expedition leader and the IFMGA certified guides and the most talented and most experienced Sherpa were all there making these really hard decisions around risks and avalanche conditions and acclimatization.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:37.200
A lot of this climbing now is happening with teams split, one company sending multiple groups out to different mountains.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:40.880
And it's hard to say for sure, but I think there's a risk there.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:49.279
Number one, because there's a lot of rush that the mountains have to be established by a certain day in order to allow people to link from mountain to mountain to mountain.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.319
So there's a lot of stress there and pressure.
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:57.279
And I'm not sure the teams are quite as deeply resourced in terms of experience.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:15.839
You know, I think we have to be careful to make sure, like, as if you're a client, if you're a climber bouncing professional athlete, non-professional, whatever, if you're bouncing from mountain to mountain, how are you ensuring that your team that did the work and made the camps and ropes for you were maximizing safety for their employees?
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.319
I do think that's still on the climbers.
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.759
And as we know, those things are hard to pause through when you're not there.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:22.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:33.759
I think it's an interesting point in which, like, where climbing two or three in a season is probably still, you can manage some of that.
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:40.559
And then as you get, as you increase your number, you're spreading your resources more and your movements have to be faster.
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.079
And therefore, that it's a slippery slope, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:51.839
And just to flip it, you're like, this is one of the very cool things that the Nepali-owned companies have figured out.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:58.160
That yeah, none of the foreign companies were like, let's operate on eight different mountains at the same time.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:19.279
And the Nepali companies had these large, you know, uh communities of strong Sherpa and mountain guides and and helicopter connections to the Heli companies and inexpensive tents and all the things that it takes to build multiple base camps and camps on many different mountains.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:29.279
And they just dove in, kind of building off NIMS's 14 peaks idea and saying, we can actually operate this as a business.
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:37.200
And uh, I I think a lot of kudos do need to be given to that like creativity and belief.
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:54.559
Back when I was still talking about like how hard three mountains in one season were, or I was still talking about like K, you know, how you would commercially guide K2, these companies had the vision to say we can guide all 14 in the same season, or you know, eight of them, all the Nepali ones in the same season.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:59.359
And it is opened up this whole new world of of climbing.
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:08.880
Um, so while it might not be the style I most connect to, I I do see it as really like forward, really visionary in some ways.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:09.759
Absolutely.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:14.000
Yeah, it's it's pretty cool to watch, and and I think commercializing it is cool.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:18.559
It's giving, you know, opportunity to to climbers that want to push that limit.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:24.319
Yeah, and I guess uh to your point, like like no one used to climb these other mountains.
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:32.240
Like everyone was on Everest and Low Take is it shared the same camps, and maybe you had a couple of people on these other ones.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.240
Well, we all talk about how good it would be to spread away from Everest.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:38.480
This is absolutely doing that.
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:46.720
There are teams on every single Nepali 8,000 meter peak, multiple commercially guided groups of non-professional climbers on every one.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.880
And I see that as a positive.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:49.519
Totally.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:50.720
Yeah, that's a great point.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:55.839
Well, on that note, we just might as well dive into only talking about Everest from now on.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:57.440
All right, let's go.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:06.559
So uh three kind of uh news topics that I've heard of as the season is just really getting started, um, that I kind of wanted to bring up.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.119
And and if you have more, you know, let's throw them out there.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.400
This might kind of, you know, pinball into a couple more.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:18.480
But um, starting off, it sounds like uh the ice fall is a bit sketchy this year.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:28.319
Uh there's a hanging Sarak that looks threatening, uh, is the words that I read in the media, and it has delayed uh the fixing of the ice fall.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:35.519
Um, so the fixing has not been completed through the ice fall, which means teams can't make it through to camp one and two.
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:39.359
You know, I feel like I I do kind of hear this story every season.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:44.480
Uh, and also like it sounds like there's not just one threatening Surak in the ice fall, though there's there's many.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.160
So, what's your take on uh this news topic?
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:55.359
Yeah, I mean, overall, I guess my take on the news topic is it's uh of course it's it's valid to be talking about it.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:07.200
It's a little bit late from like the route not being up to camp one and camp two by the 20th of April, like is late um in the modern era, the last decade.
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:18.480
And um, so of course that's gonna add stress to people, people who are hoping to do multiple routes or who know the mountain's probably gonna be busier than it's ever been before.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.720
We're expecting the most permits, most climbers on the south side ever.
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:30.079
And so the single biggest thing that will make that less dangerous is spreading people out.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:35.839
And anything that pushes people together in schedule is a negative.
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:38.400
And so this isn't the way we wanted to start this season.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:40.079
Anyone wanted to start the season.
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:43.680
At the same point, to your point, like this is not unusual.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:52.799
And you've heard this story countless times before about the icefall doctors getting stuck or having to back off because of risk or um things like that.
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.480
It's not unusual.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.880
It in no way means they're not going to find a route through.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:06.400
And it also doesn't mean that this rack's gonna fall and kill, you know, 14 climbers like it did in 2014.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:22.319
So mostly what I actually took out of this was other than a little bit of stress about timing, was I just love hearing it in the acknowledgement, like that the ice fall doctors are like thinking safety first while acknowledging this is a dangerous thing and some risk has to be taken.
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:26.640
What they saw, they just decided absolutely not.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:35.759
And I hope they, you know, maintain that level of like independence and kind of like guide brain thought around these risks.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:52.559
Because everyone who listens to this podcast knows how I feel about the ice fall, and that the very random risk of when these Syracuse fall, like we can identify ones that look scary, but when they fall is completely random.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:58.880
You know, we wish we could be like, oh, they fall at night when the ice expands, or they fall during the day when the ice melts.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:00.559
To me, it's all horseshit.
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:02.480
I've been there a long, long time.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:14.079
And I've seen people die or have close calls at all different times of day on all different days at all different times of the season on the left side of the route, the center of the route, the right side of the route.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:18.640
So that random part is the part I've never been comfortable with.
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:24.880
And I think it's easy for people to forget like how often people are killed in the ice fall.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:31.519
And my seasons on the mountain from 2000 on that side of the mountain from 2009 to 2014.
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:42.240
You know, I think we had fatalities in the ice fall from Surak fall in 2009, 2011, 2012, maybe not in 13.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:52.799
And then, of course, 14 killed in 2014, 19 killed in 2015, which was an earthquake, but the earthquake triggered the Syrax, which killed everyone.
00:33:53.039 --> 00:34:03.519
And then I can't remember in the later 2010s, but then 2023 was the last season I know of a big accident with three Sherpa killed and one icefall accident.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.000
So this happens many, many seasons.
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.559
And I hope it doesn't happen this season.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.119
Yeah, it is it is great to see the icefall doctors taking that safety focus.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:24.320
And it also sounds like the Nepali government is involved in managing the decision around the icefall being open or closed.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:26.320
Is that typical?
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:27.760
Is that new?
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:30.400
Is that more just media talking it up?
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:31.920
Do you have any insight there?
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:33.679
I don't have a strong feeling about that.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:39.199
I mean, the icefall doctors ultimately the ones who close or open it by not fixing it and not repairing it.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:44.159
The ice fall sections of the ice fall are damaged almost every few days, every couple of days.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:50.159
And the icefall doctors have to go up and put new ladders into sections that have collapsed or had Syrax collapse on them.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:56.800
And so ultimately they they determine if it's open or closed based on is the route complete or not.
00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:09.039
And it's pretty hard to just be like, oh, we'll just grab a couple other climbers to carry a bunch of ladders and refix these sections because all that equipment is owned and supplied by the icefall doctor team.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:17.440
That icefall doctor team used to be managed, you know, kind of in connection with a company called Himalayan Guides and Henry Todd, who passed away last year.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:25.360
But for years now, it's been managed by the Expedition Operators Association and the Nepal government, essentially.
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:31.760
So um it's completely out of the hands of any of the um guiding companies.
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.000
It's been independent for a long time.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:52.639
The the guiding companies basically put in proposals for who gets to fix from the ice fall up, camp two, up the mountain, and one company, an actual competitive trekking agency or logistics agency, each year gets the job of fixing the rest of the mountain and they get paid for that.
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:57.440
But uh the ice fall is a standalone job and standalone group.
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.960
So yeah, and and technology is getting better and it is being used.
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:11.440
We you probably remember last year, you know, extensive drone use helped to find a more efficient route through the ice fall, and that's suddenly all being done again this year.
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:17.599
And uh I've been um writing people who should be arriving in base camp soon.
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.559
Like, I'm not quite clear on when we're talking about a sarac.
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:30.400
No, when we talk about Syracuse, we're talking about the Sarah's that hang six to eight thousand feet above the route on the Everest side of the mountain.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.400
That threaten the entire ice fall.
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:34.320
That threaten the entire ice fall.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:43.599
Some of the articles in the media made it sound more like maybe it was a smaller sarac inside the ice fall, but maybe they couldn't find a way around it.
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:49.840
That seems not likely because they should be able to find a different route if it's just in the ice fall.
00:36:49.920 --> 00:37:03.840
The reason I bring it up, if it is Sarac's high on the wall, kind of the Changsei side, the wall, it is very difficult to like predict when they're gonna fall or if they're gonna fall at all.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:07.199
There are years where we were so sure they'd fall and they never did.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:14.639
And there were other years, obviously like 2014, where people thought it wasn't gonna fall and it wiped out 14 climbers.
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:22.000
Um, and then there are seasons like the famous autumn season when Madison Mountain Earring was there and Anj was there, and Alex T.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:28.960
Chan was there, and everyone canceled and left because of an overhanging Surac that they were so sure was gonna fall.
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:30.639
I assume it fell sometime.
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.039
I have no idea if it fell during the climbing season.
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:37.280
So yeah, I'm waiting for more information of where this Sarac actually is.
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.679
Yeah, I think that's why you listen to the Duffel Shuffle.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:40.559
That's really good insight.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:52.000
Because I think the media, you to your point, is portraying it as like one, a Sarac that will fall very soon, and two, that it's in the ice fall.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.400
And and I agree that just sounds odd.
00:37:54.559 --> 00:38:01.519
It to me it makes a lot more sense that this is a sarac threatening the entire ice fall, which would mean it's it's high up on the mountain.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:03.119
So stay tuned on that.
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:04.719
Yeah, exactly.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:13.599
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00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:25.840
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00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:45.360
That kind of leads me into uh my second topic.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:56.320
You know, back in episode 51, we talked about Everest, we talked about pivoting from Alpinglow pivoting or sorry, Alp and Glow not pivoting and why the decision to not pivot was being made.
00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:05.440
And uh Topo Mayna, who is an Alping Glow guide, uh, is going to be on the mountain on the south side uh this year.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.280
He's actually actively heading to Base Camp, I believe, as we speak.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:18.159
Can you talk a little bit about what Topo's up to and how that impacts Alping Glow, if it does impact Alp and Glow, who he's there with and all of that?
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:19.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:32.639
I mean, I so, you know, remembering back to episode 51, and for anyone who wants to have a listen, please do our decision to cancel the north side and and not go to the south side is something like Alpenglow stands behind.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:50.480
But I think in that episode, it kind of mentioned that like, you know, it has been 10 years since I've guided on the south side of the mountain that I made the decision that is too dangerous and it can't really ethically uh be or it can't really be done in a way that I feel good about ethically, safety-wise, a trip that I'm proud of for Alping Glow.
00:39:50.639 --> 00:40:00.800
But that I would love to, in some ways, at least be able to have a competent like discussion challenging those assumptions, which is hard to do when I haven't been in years.
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:11.360
But that there was no the way to find out that new information was not to just pivot the Alping Glow group and bring uh a team to the south side, a big team to the south side of the mountain.
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:17.760
We just couldn't, I couldn't wrap my head around how to do that safely without having new and current information.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:34.880
So fortunately, kind of best case scenario, two of Alping Glow's best mountain guides, Carlo Perez and Topo Esteban Meina, uh, really did want to go and have a look for themselves, uh, the south side of the mountain.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:37.039
Neither of them have climbed the south side before.
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:49.199
So they don't have this like deep experience uh with Lotse and the south side of Everest, but of course, have like uh you can't be a climber and not want to experience that side if it can be done safely.
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:55.199
And so they worked out with one climber that was canceled by Alpenglow.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:41:15.199
They worked out to go and have a small, fast, heavily supported team attempt the south side of Everest uh through another company, through, through uh uh Nepali Logistics Agency that they have both done a lot of their personal climbing with.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:23.599
It's called Expeditions High Altitude, Expeditions High Mountain Tracks, uh Pembagelji's company.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.639
Uh, I was lucky enough to climb uh K2 with Pembergy in 2019.
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:43.360
He's an IFMGA mountain guide, uh, an incredibly talented uh athlete and Shopa, who has his own uh small company that does kind of like high-end projects in Nepal on the big mountains.
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:48.719
And so they are going to be going and attempting Everest on the South Side.
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:56.239
And, you know, I've spent many, many uh years, I guess, talking talking to Topo and Cala about the South Side.
00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:00.800
So I think uh uh their mindset going in just feels so strong.
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:21.599
Like to the point where I uh, if I understand their schedule correctly, Topo is actually going in before the rest of the team and hoping to do one pass through the ice fall to even determine should they pull the plug before the rest of the team even gets to base camp and establishes a huge camp and and and things like that, which I have a lot of respect for.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:34.480
Like Topo is someone who can go through the ice fall in two hours instead of 12 hours, and is well known for his kind of risk management and mitigation while not saying no to risk, right?
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:40.639
He he's kind of known for climbing big alpine faces on high mountains, and those have a lot of risk.
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:47.360
And so he he's proven himself excellent at kind of like analyzing that risk and where is too much.
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:57.039
So I feel really lucky that I'm finally going to get like as close to first person 2026 data off the south side of the mountain.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:03.519
Yeah, I mean, it's it's cool to hear that Topo and Carla are going for it and it does sound like they're doing it the right way.
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:13.840
I think one of the things I admire most about Topo is not only his risk management, but his ability to separate between personal risk and professional risk.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.039
Um, and I think that's a really hard thing to do as a guide.
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:24.480
And and his ability to say this is a risk that I can take personally, but not professionally, is a really hard balance to find.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.719
And I think that's one that I admire of his.
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:32.320
Now, Topo goes and he climbs the mountain, he guides the mountain, all is good.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.719
He comes back and he says, I think it's good to go.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:36.079
We should run trips.
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.559
Like, are you gonna like I mean that has to be hard for you to think about?
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:47.280
Obviously, you trust Topo and you respect Topo, but for the last 10 years you've stood on not going to the South Side.
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:49.840
Are you do you feel like you'll want to go see it for yourself?
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:51.039
That's a good question.
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:56.960
I I mean, at the end of the day, Alpinglow is is not mine alone, and it was never meant to be.
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.599
And so, like, you know, I think.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:08.960
The best way to imagine is like actually Logan Talbot is the head of risk management and mitigation and our chief guide at Alp and Glow.
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:24.719
And so I imagine ultimately Logan will be taking in all the information he can, and then we'll be trying to have as unemotional a conversation we can around is this a trip we can be proud of?
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:36.880
And that we realistically think that my line has always been can I run this trip for a decade and not think I'm gonna loot, have staff fatalities.
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:49.199
And I mentioned staff, not clients, just because the number, the amount of person hours spent in the ice fall and in these high-risk places have multiplied so much higher for staff.
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.000
So that risk is just much more likely.
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.440
And that's kind of how I think about it.
00:44:53.599 --> 00:45:02.400
Not only is it not acceptable to have a client fatality that we could foresee, it is also not acceptable to have a staff fatality that we could foresee.
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:12.719
And so, you know, I think we're gonna have to have like legitimate if they come back with good positive feelings about the south side, that will be one question.
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:18.800
And then the second question will be can't do we still all as a team think the north side is safer?
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:24.480
If it is, can we realistically run trips there and just shelve the idea of a south side trip?
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:29.119
It's a conversation that like we haven't built a framework for how to make a decision.
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.920
We're just in the information gathering phase.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:36.639
Yeah, and and awesome that the information gathering could happen as quickly as it did.
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:44.719
You know, I think a month and a half ago, it was not known that this would be a possibility this season or even next season.
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:49.599
And so for it to already be actively happening is is awesome and it must be exciting.
00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:52.800
Obviously, Topo and Carla are not working for Alp and Glow on this.
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:54.639
This is something they're doing on their own.
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.280
Um, how much communication do you anticipate having with them throughout the trip?
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.519
Shoot, I hope minute by minute.
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:03.920
I just want like patched in live.
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:12.159
I want I want Topo carrying a Starlink, like connected to a battery, live channeling everything.
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.840
You know, I I think it's it's important for me to give them space.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.000
This is their expedition, not my expedition.
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:29.119
It's a little different than let's say this last autumn's expedition to the hornbine, where I was like minute by minute, like in conversations and trying to support the decision making and and things like that.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:33.280
Like this, this is really different.
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:35.840
And so I want to give them as much space as I can.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:41.920
Um at the same time, uh, have I been talking to Topo every day so far?
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:43.039
Maybe.
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:48.639
Yeah, I mean, I I would imagine that it it's hard for you not to be curious, right?
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:51.920
It's hard for me not to be curious, and you're so much closer.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:57.119
And so uh, you know, you're gonna you're gonna ask when you want to ask, right?
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.000
Yep.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:07.760
So I'm sure it'll be a continuing through line of this next few weeks of of our calls or of our uh duffel shuffle recordings.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.480
Yeah, well uh kind of like progress reports.
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:15.199
When you get those voice memos that are appropriate to share, maybe we can just add some into the episodes.
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:16.400
How's that sound?
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:18.559
Sounds good.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:19.199
Awesome.
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:19.679
All right.
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:26.639
Well, the third one I want to bring up is um Ryan Mitchell on uh on oxygen at Everest Basecamp.
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:28.159
So a little backstory.
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:31.679
Ryan Mitchell was a YouTube, I looked it up.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:35.119
He's a YouTube Minecraft influencer.
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:40.960
Minecraft, I also had to look up, is a video game that people stream playing, I believe.
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:47.280
Um your kid and my kid will be playing it soon and won't talk to us for this is not my expertise.
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:54.320
Um anyway, so Ryan Mitchell is a he was he's known for being a YouTube Minecraft influencer.
00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:57.360
He had over a million subscribers on his YouTube channel.
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:04.000
I saw something about he left the channel and started a new one, which sounded absurd, but I'm sure he had good reasoning for it.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.760
He's been successful, obviously.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:11.599
Um, but in 2023, he kind of made a hard pivot, it sounds like, and got into mountaineering.
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:17.440
And I believe he successfully climbed Everest on oxygen in 2023.
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:25.599
Um, I'm not sure what his mountaineering uh experience led, you know, was leading up to that Everest expedition.
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:32.079
And then in 2025, I believe he went to K2 and he was unsuccessful on K2.
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:37.360
It was the season in which all the commercial, Western commercial companies pulled the plug early.
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.559
There was lots of threatening rockfall, and it wasn't safe.
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:45.360
Uh and so they didn't have much success on K2, but they they made good decisions, it sounds like.
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:51.039
And Ryan made the choice to be to go back to Everest and attempt without oxygen.
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:54.159
Um, and so his goal was set from the beginning.
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:56.000
Everest no oxygen.
00:48:56.239 --> 00:49:04.320
And it sounds like he went to base camp and then he descended to Gorak Schep and I think to Kathmandu.
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:05.360
Oh, sorry, you're right.
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:15.039
He descended to Kathmandu to wait for the ice fall and then went back up to base camp and started feeling sick and maybe had some GI issues.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:23.519
Anyway, he descended to Gorak Shep and his uh blood oxygen level was down at 35%, which as you know is not normal.
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:30.000
Uh and so he let's remember these uh pulse oxygen was uh highly inaccurate.
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.199
But 35 is like you should be in a hospital.
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:38.320
His pulse, I mean I mean, below 90 in the US, you'd be on oxygen in a hospital.
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:41.039
But um, it's obviously very common to see lower numbers.
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:57.360
But uh the key with a 35 number, like it you probably wouldn't be conscious at 35, but like so, but whether it was 35 or 45 or 55 or 65 or 25, like it was way too low for an acclimatized climber um at an altitude they had already been to.
00:49:57.519 --> 00:49:59.280
So suddenly there was a problem.
00:49:59.519 --> 00:49:59.840
Yeah.
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.800
So he went on oxygen, which was the right thing to do.
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.320
That said, his whole goal was Everest, no oxygen.
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.280
He has since started using oxygen.
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:14.320
And so there's been this debate of like, can he continue to climb Everest with no oxygen?
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:19.599
You know, let's say hypothetically he recovers, he's fine, he wants to continue his goal.
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:25.119
Can you climb Everest without oxygen, having put oxygen on at some point during your expedition?
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:28.400
You're below base camp, but where does that lie?
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:30.800
You know, back to our conversations at length.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:33.360
This is kind of a personal decision for him, right?
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:42.079
Like your style is the style that you decide, and there's no like this counts, this doesn't count authority out there.
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:45.840
Um, but because we're playing armchair mountaineer, we get to weigh in.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.119
So, what do you think?
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:54.719
Is there any way that he could continue his goal of Everest without oxygen now that he has used oxygen?
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:56.639
I was wondering where you were gonna take this.
00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:58.159
Like, why do we care?
00:50:58.400 --> 00:50:59.039
So I get it.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:00.559
We're armchair mountaineers now.
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:01.840
So now this is what we do.
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:05.360
We fucking sit around and talk shit about other people's climbs.
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:08.880
We're not talking shit, we're just analyzing from the comfort of our own home.
00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:10.400
I'm just kidding.
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:15.199
So, first of all, I'm glad like Ryan, it sounds like it's gonna be okay.
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:16.320
That's great.
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:17.679
Good job, Ryan.
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:19.440
Way to make the right decision.
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:22.880
I think you've heard this story, probably the Devil Shuffle audience has.
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:32.639
I'll try to keep it really short, but like the reason I say kind of like right decision, go on oxygen, like take care of yourself because your brain is much more important than this like thing.
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.079
I I really believe that.
00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:38.480
And uh, the story I was gonna share is in 20, shoot, I'm gonna get the year wrong.
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:41.119
2011, actually, the year I did the three peaks.
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:47.599
Uh, there was a group of professional alpinists from Spain on Lotte, climbing without supplemental oxygen.
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:49.360
A number of things had gone wrong with the season.
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.360
It was a really hard season, very dry conditions up high.
00:51:53.599 --> 00:52:11.679
The team ended up summiting without oxygen, was coming down, and two of the five climbers ended up like no longer being able to get down under their own power, like essentially because of altitude illnesses, snow blindness, all these things coming together.
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:13.760
Two of five needed rescue.
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:16.400
No helys back in 2011 up that high.
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:18.079
So, human power rescue.
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:21.840
Our team being super well resourced gave everything we had.
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:30.000
The reason I ended up climbing Lotse was because the guide for Lotse ended up going up and doing a rescue and was so exhausted they then couldn't climb without their clients.
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.239
And so I was able to jump in and go up with the Lotse clients.
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:40.639
But went up, did this huge, very dangerous rescue up high on Lotse to get these climbers down alive.
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:54.880
And because the climbers had summited without supplemental oxygen, they were okay with being carried and shot up with dexamethasone, but continued to fight their rescuers when oxygen masks were trying to be put on their faces.
00:52:55.199 --> 00:53:00.639
And to me, it was just the height of like comedy and farce.
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:10.159
And I remember like our expedition doctor, who you know very well, just being like just, you know, disgusted, like that this is what was gonna happen.
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:24.159
They were gonna claim their no oxygen ascents, despite being rescued, and were willing to potentially die rather than put on the oxygen, even though all these other lines had already been crossed.
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:39.920
And even back then, when like no oxygen climbing like was a pathway to major sponsors in both Europe and America, like it just seemed so silly and dangerous.
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:43.039
And so that that's my first thought with Ryan.
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:54.880
Like, it uh who knows what mental gymnastics he went through, but he he put on the oxygen, you know, it instead of maybe trying lots of other things while not putting oxygen to maintain this line.
00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:58.159
And maybe one day we'll get to ask Ryan what went through his mind.
00:53:58.320 --> 00:53:59.440
Did he even think about this?
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:00.480
Because I don't I don't know.
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:01.440
I don't know him.
00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:03.519
I'm happy to see that.
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:08.559
And then, second of all, to your point, like it's definitely where my brain goes.
00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:14.719
Like we've said this about for oxygen, like what I call clients, like non-professional climbers.
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:15.679
We've said it for a long time.
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:24.400
Like at the end of the day, it just matters are you proud with how you climbed, how much oxygen you use, how much support you use, did your Sherpa get hurt or not hurt in the in your climbing?
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:25.440
Did you get frostbite?
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:26.159
Did you not?
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:32.800
I have very strong opinions about what makes me proud or not proud, and I share them a lot, and I'll do that here as well.
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:39.920
But but bottom line, like, you know, that's even spreading now to no oxygen climbing.
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:43.440
Like, no, I don't think anyone anymore in 2026.
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:45.599
Well, I mean, I I guess I shouldn't say that.
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:51.039
Climbing Everest without supplemental oxygen is still a very big deal in 2026.
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:56.079
But at the end of the day, does anyone really care other than you?
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:57.920
Like in the grand scheme.
00:54:58.159 --> 00:54:59.440
So are you proud?
00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:08.079
Like any climber like could sneak a few hits of oxygen in their tent under their sleeping bag and no one's gonna know.
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:11.039
In the same way we talk about this in like rock climbing.
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:26.559
Like, if you wanted to like, as you're placing a camera, a quick draw, grab it for a momentary second, I do all the time weight off your like other hand, could you do it and get away with it and your belayer probably wouldn't see?
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:28.320
Of course you could.
00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.119
Like, but like, are you gonna claim it?
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:38.079
Like, it's your pride, it's your honor, and that should always be the foundation of an accomplishment in the big mountains.
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:45.840
So it if Ryan goes on oxygen down low, whatever it is, maybe goes all the way back to Kemandu and starts his trek again.
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:48.400
Like I was gonna say you could fly home and fly back.
00:55:49.119 --> 00:56:01.440
Like, like, what is the line of a, you know, I think the the Himalayan database did have to give an opinion because they do keep the records and they gave an opinion that if you're on expedition, you cannot use it before, after, etc.
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.159
When does the expedition begin and end to your point?
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:06.480
Could you fly home and start a new expedition?
00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:10.320
Like, this is up to you whether you feel good about it or not.
00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:11.840
But you got to weigh in a little bit.
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:13.599
Okay, but so I'll weigh in.
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:28.000
And and the reason I do agree with you that it is important to weigh in is there are a lot of rumors coming out that recently some no oxygen climbers have used oxygen on their descent, but still say I climbed the mountain without oxygen.
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:31.119
And then to themselves, they're not lying.
00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:33.440
They climbed it without oxygen.
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:37.039
But to me, I know the far harder part was the descent.
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:45.599
And so, had I been able to like go into a tent and have an hour of oxygen, it would have just completely transformed my accomplishment and experience.
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:49.119
And so I do have the opinion.
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:55.360
And and secondly, one more thing, like sickness, and you always hear me say, like, actually climbing these mountains is not so difficult.
00:56:55.440 --> 00:57:05.760
It's all the other things that have to fall into place: the weather, the conditions, the sickness that you get, the politics, the permits, like that's what makes it so fucking hard.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:20.639
So, of course, if you're claiming a no-oxygen attempt, it needs to be no oxygen from to me when you left home, if you use oxygen on the plane coming over, like well, but all planes are oxygenated, right?
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.880
Use supplemental oxygen.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:35.840
Like, if you more than the plane gives you, like if you use supplemental oxygen at any point of an expedition from leaving home to returning home.
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:46.559
So I would include going to the hospital in Kathmandu and getting put on oxygen for your frostbite or whatever it is, you failed at climbing that mountain without supplemental oxygen.
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:48.719
So that's my line.
00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:49.840
So, what's your take?
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:57.840
If Ryan flew home, restarted a new expedition, could he climb Everest without without oxygen?
00:57:58.000 --> 00:57:59.360
Because that would be feasible.
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:00.239
Absolutely.
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:01.199
Yeah, cool.
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:02.239
I I think I agree.
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:08.320
I think that's where my line exists as well is he could fly home, uh, or he could fly anywhere, actually.
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:14.400
He could just like leave the Kathmandu airport on an international flight and then return.
00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:20.400
Just makes me so grossed out to think about that.
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:23.599
Okay, so I'm gonna take it a layer further for you.
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:28.079
It's made me kind of like think more about this whole no oxygen thing.
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:30.320
And and I'm just gonna call it a fad, right?
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:34.719
It like it's it's becoming like a fad if you can't if you climb Everest with oxygen.
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:36.559
The next level is to climb it without oxygen.
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:40.079
And the only reason I don't want to call it a fad is because I really want to encourage it.
00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:41.280
I okay, I agree.
00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:41.920
I think it's awesome.
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:45.039
Assistance becomes greater and greater on the mountain.
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:51.039
There will be a push to having going back to this pure style, and I want to encourage that.
00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:52.800
I mean, some fads are awesome.
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.639
I think there are great fads out there.
00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:59.519
So anyway, yes, it is uh it is awesome, I agree.
00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:02.960
But effectively, oxygen is aid.
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:13.920
So if we're going to rock climbing terminology, like oxygen is one layer of aid on the mountain, and when you free a route, you're climbing without aid.
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:21.360
In the big mountains, there are multiple layers of aid that could be Sherpa support, that could be fixed ropes, that could be oxygen.
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:28.079
Do you think there's a place for other aidless sense of Everest?
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:36.719
Like, do you think that removing oxygen as aid is the place that that kind of sh we should be going?
00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:40.079
Or what about climbing without using the fixed ropes?
00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:42.239
Or what about climbing without Sherpa support?
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:44.159
I'm not sure I understand the question.
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:45.199
Like, is it a thing?
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:47.199
Should we be encouraging those things as well?
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:56.239
Yeah, I mean, I guess like removing one layer of aid on the mountain is is interesting and it it certainly makes it much, much more difficult.
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:07.519
And maybe that's why oxygen has become the kind of by default removal of aid, is it's the most impactful on the challenge.
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:14.000
But at the same time, like it in rock climbing, you either climb with aid or you don't, and you free a route.
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:15.280
No, I don't I don't agree.
01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:26.159
The rope is that next level, like you should take away the rope uh in order to make the mental game clearer and harder and more real.
01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:26.880
Yeah.
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:35.440
As soon as you put on a rope and and use gear, even though you're still free climbing, yeah, you have completely removed a massive part of the challenge.
01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:56.239
And so but to your point, like, yes, I think it's very important to then stand by, you know, there isn't the next level, is like um when I skied Makaloo, Carla Perez um attempted to climb not only without oxygen, but without personal Sherpa support.
01:00:56.559 --> 01:01:08.079
So as little support as she could, but she still had all the support of the fixed ropes and the broken trail in front of her and a safety net if things went wrong with her team, because she was part of the Alp and Glow team.
01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:18.320
So then there's the next step, which is you are actually all alone on the mountain with just your partner, the only two people on a mountain or route.
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:24.719
And then there's a step beyond that being the only person on a mountain or route, like truly soloing.
01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:27.280
I do think acknowledging and owning again.
01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:30.639
This podcast has heard many times, me talking about the asterisks.
01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:40.639
Like, I feel very strongly we need to stop using the language on the mountain that people are climbing unsupported on Everest, because it is absolutely not impossible.
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:51.840
And it is not acknowledging the massive amount of work being if you're unsupported, all it means to me is you didn't pay for the Sherpa who are helping you, and someone else paid for them.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:56.559
Someone else is breaking the trail, putting in the fixed ropes, you putting in the ice fall.
01:01:56.719 --> 01:02:00.320
And even like I used to give Killian a hard time, like, you know, climbing.
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:15.679
I when he used to say you didn't use the fixed ropes, the fact that the fixed ropes were there if something went wrong, you got snowblind, you broke a leg, all these things, it's a massive, massive piece of support or aid, the word you're using.
01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:20.800
And I think not that Killian ever tried to hide that, but like that should be part of the story.
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:33.440
Like, yes, I had massive support, but I did it in this style that makes me more proud, which is no one carried my pack for me, or no one, I didn't use the fixed ropes unless I had an emergency.
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:37.039
You know, like I think there are better ways we could speak to these things.
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:43.199
Because to your point, they're like they are absolutely huge levels of assistance.
01:02:43.360 --> 01:03:03.360
And, you know, it's something I've talked quite a bit about when I did K2 and Everest, you know, by had I done those things 10 years earlier in my career, had I been able to find the funding 10 years earlier, I think I would have attempted without Sherpa support as well as without oxygen, or as in a in a like no safety net version as I possibly could.
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:14.559
But by the time I did it in my whatever it was, mid-40s, like I wanted to give myself the best chance of coming home alive while also trying this really holida thing.
01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:28.880
And so I had a filmer with me and a Sherpa with me, and um uh, you know, someone had carried my tent to Camp Four and Oxygen to Camp Four in case I needed it because I was gonna get myself killed.
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:36.719
So like I I'm very open about talking about those things, but they're they're certainly like a less good style.
01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:40.960
And so do you think that oxygen is truly the biggest bite?
01:03:41.679 --> 01:03:52.400
It is any one of us can get strong enough to carry our own like two tents weigh two pounds now, like a black diamond floor flight tent and like it's so easy.
01:03:52.559 --> 01:04:02.079
Not I guess one thing I'm struggling with though is like I think that it's all about the route finding and the trail breaking and that aspect that's making the biggest difference.
01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:08.239
And obviously on Everest, it's virtually impossible to climb the mountain without the trail being broken for you.
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:26.880
But like, imagine I think it's it's I would argue as an armchair mountaineer, that it's harder to climb Everest without the trail being broken and the route being put in with oxygen than it is on the trail without oxygen.
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:28.000
What do you think about that?
01:04:28.239 --> 01:04:30.480
Uh you know, I hate to throw you under the bus.
01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:34.239
I would say that's your nuclear lack of understanding of high mountain physiology.
01:04:34.400 --> 01:04:34.719
Totally.
01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:36.719
Not lack of understanding, you just haven't done it.
01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:46.960
I think because you can imagine you can get at the mountain in relatively dry conditions where breaking trail isn't that big deal, which actually the more normal case up there.
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:52.639
Um certainly no one has to root find any more of this perfect GPS tracks.
01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:55.039
Like that's not really a thing.
01:04:55.280 --> 01:05:00.719
No oxygen, like it's just makes it hundreds of times harder.
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:01.360
Yeah.
01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:05.840
It's just wildly, wildly different.
01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:10.400
And and that's not to take away, I thought my climbs with oxygen were really hard.
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:10.960
Totally.
01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:12.639
Like it's impressive nonetheless.
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:14.320
It's wildly different.
01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:17.280
And the thing I always come back to is just the numbers, right?
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:23.440
Like over 10,000 ascents with supplemental oxygen and and a couple of hundred without.
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:29.280
Like it's just it's wildly different, and it really hasn't changed much over time.
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:48.880
Like, we're not suddenly seeing a huge number of no no oxygen climbers being successful, despite all the things that you're mentioning have gotten so much easier in terms of breaking trail and lightweight gear and should massive sherpas support and helicopter backup and great weather forecasting.
01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:53.920
The no oxygen thing is still just such a low percentage game.
01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:54.800
All right, Ryan.
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:56.079
We'll get on that airplane.
01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:58.880
Come back for your second expedition in the same season.
01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:31.679
But I I know you're joking, but I I really feel strongly that while like no, I don't think his climb would count in my brain, or it sounds like in Himalayan database's brain, which is the only judge out there, I think he could be 100% as proud if he started again from Luca, Gorak Shep, Kamindu, or even Basecamp, and did the whole thing up and down without supplemental oxygen.
01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:36.880
While it wouldn't count, I would not think it's actually any easier.
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:44.719
It's just you gotta draw a line somewhere, otherwise it became becomes too easy to game.
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:50.480
And like I guess that's that's the point of having standards in sport.
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:59.760
So I like whether it's what kind of like spikes you can wear or how much your shoe in a running race can help you or whatever, you gotta have lines.
01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:04.000
Doesn't mean it's not fucking rad if he continues on and climbs this thing.
01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:12.159
And am I really like endorsing that he should get on a plane just to like make Sam and Adrian counted on the Duffle Shuffle podcast?
01:07:12.239 --> 01:07:18.239
Like Ryan, if you're listening, which I bet you're not, but if you are, we like you don't need to do that for me.
01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:26.000
Well, and I do think you know it it's we can all talk about what the standard is, but it would be interesting to hear from someone like Dr.
01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:35.440
Monica Pierce where the physiological benefit from oxygen, how long that lasts, where that how that actually plays a part in it.
01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:38.400
Because I would have no doubt it dramatically helps.
01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:45.840
And that kind of goes back to my point of like what makes an Everest expedition hard is all the luck it takes for the pieces to fall into place.
01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:46.079
Yeah.
01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:49.119
So if you want to get like, why should it matter?
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:50.880
That's why it should matter.
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:51.199
Yeah.
01:07:51.440 --> 01:08:05.920
Not only need you be able to climb the mountain from base camp to the summit and back to base camp without oxygen, you need to deal with the bad luck we all are gonna have on the mountain and not use the crux of oxygen to make it better.
01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:06.480
Yeah.
01:08:06.639 --> 01:08:08.079
All right, there it is.
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:12.719
So I got one more news story that I just thought of as we've been talking, just like I had.
01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:23.039
Um, I read something that uh the number of Americans with Nepal permits for 6,000 meter and higher peaks is dramatically lower this year.
01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:29.920
It was 115 uh on April 15th last year, and it's like 74, I want to say, this year.
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:34.479
Um and interestingly, you know, every country, the the numbers are kind of up and down.
01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:38.560
Um, but the Chinese, there's a lot more Chinese climbers in Nepal this year.
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:43.680
Now, they could be on any peak above 6,000 meters, so not necessarily on Everest.
01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:48.079
I would imagine most Chinese climbers are climbing Everest from the north side because they can.
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:54.239
But required to have an 8,000 meter peak previously to climb Everest from the north side.
01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:58.079
Chinese are, and then not required to climb do it from the south side.
01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:01.520
So the Chinese market on the south side has been driven radically growing.
01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:01.840
It's big.
01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:02.720
Ah, there we go.
01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:03.840
That answers the question.
01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:10.880
So lots of Chinese on the south side and notably fewer Americans on the south side of Everest this year.
01:09:11.119 --> 01:09:15.520
Do you think that has anything to do with the well, it doesn't because it's south side specific.
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:17.920
So it's not that Alpin Glow's not there.
01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:20.560
Well, it just any company is on the north side.
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:22.000
Yeah, no, it doesn't matter.
01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:23.279
This is Southside permits.
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:30.479
I, you know, first of all, just uh give a shout out, because I think the only place I've read that story is um Explorers Web.
01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:44.079
And so shout out to Explorers Web, like Angela Benavides, I think works like just so non-stop during the Everest season to kind of like unearth these stories, and credit is certainly due.
01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:45.600
So go go, Angela.
01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:48.399
I, you know, I certainly keep tag on Explorers Web.
01:09:48.479 --> 01:10:04.640
It's it's been a long road from uh 30 years ago when I kind of like I don't think Explorers Web had a lot of respect for for getting reputable and accurate news out of the mountains, and and they certainly are one of the most important um outlets today.
01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:07.439
So thanks for your work, Angela.
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:11.439
And then the story itself, I you know, I wasn't gonna bring it up.
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:16.079
We didn't really talk about it in our prep for this call because I keep calling it a call.
01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:16.960
It's a podcast.
01:10:17.119 --> 01:10:32.159
I didn't really bring it up because I I'm actually not, I don't, I think it's too early in the season yet to actually know what those numbers mean, because if I understand correctly, it's the people who have actually been to the ministry applied or gotten their permits.
01:10:32.399 --> 01:10:47.920
And so while it likely is true that there's fewer Americans this year, and there might be like geopolitical reasons for that, or there might be like uh, you know, some vibe thing, or there might just be growth in other markets, like, or it might be a random one year.
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.279
I hate to use one year or one data point as a trend.
01:10:51.520 --> 01:11:13.279
But also, even more so, if you actually just brought me this piece of information and didn't tell me anything, my guess would be that Americans, I'd like to believe partly because of Alpin Glow Expedition's leadership, Americans are far more likely to be on rapid ascent style trips, um, reduced length trips and pre-acclimatizing at home.
01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:24.399
If there's one population of climbers that has fully embraced pre-acclimatization and shortening trips, it's Americans, more than the Europeans, more than the Asian climbers that I've seen.
01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:30.880
And so it might just be the American that that trend is ramping up.
01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:39.920
More and more companies are offering their versions of Rapid Ascent, whether they call them speed or flash or efficient or whatever.
01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:48.720
Um, and so it might well be what these numbers balance out in two weeks' time, three weeks' time.
01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:58.720
Well, I'm glad we brought it up then, because now we get to circle back in two weeks and address uh why that was a poor news, not a poor news story, but an inaccurate uh data point.
01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:05.039
Uh because Americans stay home for tax day and they go to Everest on the 16th or the 17th of April.
01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:08.399
So everyone's gonna file their extensions.
01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:14.960
Well, uh that wraps up our first F uh Everest coverage episode.
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:16.960
So looking forward to chatting more.
01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:25.840
Hopefully, we get more on mountain stories to talk about, not just the pre-climb stories and uh looking forward to unpacking more with you.
01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:27.199
Absolutely, me too.
01:12:27.279 --> 01:12:32.000
And uh everyone over there, like, God, have a wild time.
01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:35.119
Uh, you know, I think that's still the bottom line.
01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:41.840
I I still truly believe it's one of the wildest things a human being can do on our planet.
01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:48.239
People are out there just like experiencing so much um every minute.
01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:51.439
And and uh I hope everyone enjoys it.
01:12:51.680 --> 01:12:52.159
Awesome.
01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:54.479
Well, stay tuned for our next episode in two weeks.
01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:58.560
Adrian's gonna get some soundbite updates from Topo on the south side of the mountain.
01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:00.800
You see you in two weeks, Sam.
01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:05.600
Thanks for listening to the Duffle Shuffle Podcast.
01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:13.760
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01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:19.840
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01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:24.000
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