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[on hold music] Hello, and welcome back to the Sporting Crypto Podcast.
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This is season three, and I'm sat with Radhima Khan from Dapper Labs, the VP of Business Development at Dapper Labs. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
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We were just actually recording, and I forgot to click the video button, which means we've started again, but I, I'm hoping for the listeners and viewers that this is gonna be second time or third time lucky, and it makes for even a better show.
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So Radhima, [laughs] once again, I'd love for you to just tell the audience, uh, a bit about yourself, your background, and why you decided to go and, and, and build at Dapper Labs. Absolutely.
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So I started my career investing in hedge funds, corporate and structured credit primarily, and then I moved over to the Hewlett Foundation to invest in, in a variety of private and public assets, and then got to know the Andreessen Horowitz team being in the valley and joined Andreessen to focus on c-consumer.
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So I spent most of my time on sports, media, entertainment, hospitality, and then ultimately fell in love with blockchain and, and crypto and decided that I wanted to build in this space.
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I got to know the Dapper Labs team very well when I was at Andreessen and was spending a lot of time with NBA and, and I'd introduced Disney to Dapper Labs as well and was really excited about the prospect of turbocharging Dapper Labs' mission to bring blockchain technology to the masses in a m- in a more seamless and fun way.
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What was it about blockchain that got you really interested? What was the kinda light bulb moment for you where you were like, "Yeah, I, I think this is a, this is a career for me going forward"?
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I think blockchain can disrupt the entire financial system as we know it today, and in order to do that, I really believe that we have to get everybody or, or a, a mass amount of people, a billion people engaged with the technology.
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And the most valuable thing that I think Dapper has done and continues to do is to make the technology accessible, and that's really the mission that I wanted to support.
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And then when it comes to kinda culture and sports, why do you think the, the overlap is so important there?
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I mean, you mentioned changing the financial system, but obviously kinda the world that we're both in is more the culture and fandom. Those things are just as pertinent.
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So, so where do you see that crossover being really important? Yes, I think culture and fandom are-- and sports are vessels for technology.
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If you can get people excited about something around a common cause, I think they're willing to try something new and different, and we've seen that across different fan demographics with NBA Top Shot and Disney and NFL, Ticketmaster, Live Nation, a number of, of different groups of fans we've seen emerge and, and really engage with this technology in a way that brings them joy.
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And we were talking a bit off air about how making that joy a longer term thing and building sustainably for the long term is super important.
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And you know, if, if I look at the figures on the volume side for Top Shot, it was about a billion dollars in twenty twenty-one, just over three hundred million in, in twenty twenty-two, and then we've had this kinda consolidation period where it's between forty and sixty million over the next three years.
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And I think in recording number one, you said, "Well, you know, that's just year on year. I look at things in a ten-year cycle," which I thought was really, really interesting.
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I'd love to hear more about what-- why that is and, and, and why you think Dapper is the right kind of business to build for that long term and build this new digital era of fandom.
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It comes down to the leadership team, right? So I think about things in terms of ten years. Like I said, given my background, that's sort of the average life of a venture fund.
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There's also, you know, investing in credit comes with a very long-term, uh, mindset, and I find that the leadership team at Dapper also believes and, and thinks that way.
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So when Roham and I are talking about our platforms and our products, we're thinking about them in terms of ten years.
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How can we make and build products that will be around for decades to come, and how we can-- can we continue to add value for fans and support what fans want when it comes to the sports and, and IPs that they love?
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And you know, conversely, I think I wrote in my newsletter that Q3 2025, and maybe you can correct me if I'm mistaken, is the biggest quarterly transactions that Top Shot has seen since towards the end of twenty twenty-two.
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And I think part of that must be because of some of the things that you folks have sparked in this later season from a product perspective and a, and a, and a collectability perspective.
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I think we were saying before that from my perspective, from the outside in, I've always seen Dapper as first and foremost a, a collectibles product, but perhaps over the years started focusing on things such as gamification and maybe trying to attract kinda fantasy players and, and so on and so forth.
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But it feels like you're, you're doubling down on collectibles and, uh, I'd love to hear about some of the things that you guys are introducing into this new season that is trying to reignite your collector base and bring more into the top of funnel as well.
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Yeah.
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So what started as really a revolution in collectibles has evolved into something much bigger, which is a movement towards deeper fan integration and real digital ownership, and you're seeing that reflected in our platform, uh, both by permanence, where now collectibles will be around for as long as the blockchain's around, you know, hundreds of years.
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And then you can also see that in the way that we're transforming all of our assets to be three-D. So fans can take the assets where they want, when they want in digital spaces where they're spending time.
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We're adding autographs.
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So we have a number of really great initiatives that are really fueled by what we're hearing from our community and the fan base in terms of what they want.Yeah, I think it was one of the biggest roadmap announcements I've ever read from a, a, from any crypto-based business, especially ones that have kind of veered into, um, this cultural space.
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One of the things that really interested me was the, the fandom shock drops, and in the roadmap you wrote, "For viral internet-breaking plays, collectors can expect these moments to go from the court to their collections as fast as possible, capturing the emotional thrill of being a fan while keeping overall supply scarce."
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And that felt really, really, uh, interesting and pertinent to me because we're kind of in this Gen X-ification, short-term attention spans, people talking about sports in a quite weird and virality-driven way.
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I suppose part of the, the roadmap that you've laid out there is, is looking at how you can lean into that as well as the collectability, correct? Yeah.
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So collectors will now be able to line up for packs for the moments that happened just minutes or hours before. And we did test shock drops during NBA playoffs. They were very well-received.
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And sports are truly an emotional experience, and collectibles, especially moments, tap into those emotions better than almost anything.
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So to add on to what you were saying, yes, people want immediate action, uh, that they can take as they're watching a sport.
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And I remember in the early days of Top Shot, we started to notice that people were actually watching NBA games more closely and saying, "Oh, I wanna collect that moment, uh, as soon as it happens."
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So we noticed that behavior and that desire and decided that we wanted to support it with the way that the product is evolving.
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I'd love to hear as well, as I mentioned, this kind of doubling down on collectability, the kind of signature rookie cards, because from a macro perspective, collectibles are really hot right now.
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I think Pokemon cards are at their peak height from a value perspective and from a trading volume perspective, and same with a lot of sports cards and memorabilia.
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And so as you kind of look at the long long term, as you said, the 10-year tenure that you're looking at, uh, building this product with, I suppose you believe that these kind of rookie cards that are being proliferated now on Top Shot will be something that are scarce and these kind of digital artifacts for collectors and sports fans down the line.
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Yeah. Our users love to support rookies and find players when they're early and support them through their journey, and that's a- another behavior that we saw that we really wanted to support.
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And as you mentioned, we're seeing actually a huge percentage of new activity coming from the interest in rookie collectibles.
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So over 30% of the transactions right now come from rookie collectibles, even though rookies only make up 7% of supply. That's incredible. That's a really incredible stat. Wow. That's, that's pretty...
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That's, that's taken me aback a little bit. [laughs] Yeah. And we really care deeply about partnering with athletes and creators broadly, right?
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So we partnered with over 30 players, including over 25 rookies, um, including Cooper Flagg and V.J. Edgecombe.
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And these signatures are especially cool because they're coming with custom bespoke inscriptions for their fans.
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So the top collectors of these players will receive airdrops of custom one-of-one moments saying, "For my top collector," and that's something that when I've talked to NBA players and athletes, uh, across the board, they're really excited about.
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Because today, athletes don't have a lot of visibility into who their biggest fans are.
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And so when, um, Jacob, Martim, and I are talking to players, uh, we just spoke with, with one of the greats, and he was saying, you know, "I'd love to be able to see who my biggest fans are."
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And one of the most special moments is really when players will retweet or comment or engage with their fans in a way that they hadn't before as soon as a fan collects a moment.
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Uh, and it's really amazing for that fan too because historically, the engagement between players and fans has been sort of one way, where fans are just consuming how the players are performing and so forth, but now there's an ability to create sort of a two-way dialogue.
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And it's really hard to scale that, right? And find a, a business market fit for it. So, uh, for example, in '22 and, and '23, I was pitched a lot of businesses that were basically NFT-gated access to X athlete.
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And I was like, "Well, those athletes a lot of the time don't have time to do that one-to-one or one-to-few conversation or relationship because it, it, they just don't have the time," right?
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They also have all these commercial commitments- Mm-hmm...
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and rights to give away, and they have to uphold their brand on social media to ensure that they get endorsements long term, so they can do the one-to-many and have that kind of like bigger way to communicate with people.
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But I actually feel that when you're in the midst of a already culturally relevant thing, like Top Shot or Topps or whatever it may be, I feel like that can have some sort of fit.
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And, and it's really interesting to hear that there's so much demand from, from consumers on the rookie side of things, and then athletes already g- already giving you the feedback that like, "Hey, this is, this is really cool.
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Like, how do we get involved when we know, uh, for sure that someone is like a super fan?" Yeah. And that ranges, um, across, you know, different players.
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So, you know, we're also seeing up-and-coming players like Jake LaRavia, who's breaking out for the Lakers right now, and Ty Jerome, who was one of the most improved players last season.
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And they're not only engaging on Top Shot for the love of collectibles, but they're leaning in because it's such a welcoming and warm place to grow their brand against, you know, with diehard fans.
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And last year, I also recall at the NBA Tech Summit, I was watching, um, Wemby speak, and he was just saying how important it is for him to engage with his fans and, and meet them where they are.
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And so he's really active on social platforms as well.
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And I think it depends on, on the person and the individual, but it's really great to see, uh, athletes have this ability and, and desire to engage with fans in a new way.
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And part of our goal is to enable that-By sharing their most iconic moments and trying to do it in as real time as possible. Yeah. I, I mentioned the Gen X-ification of... Is it Gen X? Gen A? Gen...
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Uh, wh- whichever is the youngest gen now, um, making myself feel old, at least.
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So a lot of these players are in their early 20s as well, and they have been-- they've grown up as digitally native people and young adults.
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And so it's no shock to see a lot of these kinda like younger players engage in a more personalized relationship with some of these fans, or a more unique one.
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You know, over here in the UK, in the soccer world, Erling Haaland launched a YouTube channel. He's, you know, one of the biggest footballers on the planet, and it-- he doesn't care about what the thumbnail looks like.
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It's just kind of like his life in a day, and it's getting like crazy views. And so-- and he's a 23, 24-year-old, um, footballer.
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And so a lot of these athletes presumably are very much at the, if not the cutting edge on the digital side, they're at least very digital native, and they kinda get the Top Shot piece, which is one part of the battle, which I presume you can then double down on with them when you're trying to build some of these experiences and, and, and kinda personalize things for some of these collectors.
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Yeah. Top Shot is really both a collectibles platform, but also a social network for NBA fans by NBA fans. It's really always been built on this emotional connection.
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It's something we talk about in nearly every meeting when we're thinking about new features or how we can support our users.
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And for example, when I'm at, you know, NBA All-Star and I see a parent ripping a pack with their kid or, or saying, "You know, I hope that...
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Like, Top Shot this," you know, that, that's really exciting because it is an emotional connection. It's something that people enjoy.
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It's a product that people enjoy with their friends and family, and that's really what we hope to continue to build. Yeah. And, and that kind of emotional feeling,
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I think a, a lot of the reason this kind of Pokemon boom and this sports collectible, sports trading cards boom has come essentially from people that are in their mid to late 30s, 40s, maybe even early 50s, and that kind of like generational thing where the emotion and the feeling of collecting or ripping packs does translate to a digital experience, right?
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Whether you're doing it in Top Shot or a product like Courtyard, for example, there is that kinda still
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really strange feeling of minting an F- NFT, doing a digital pack, ripping something open that I think is innately human, is kinda part of our culture as humans.
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Uh, collecting is something that we've done for-- or creating culture has been done-- something that we've done for 30,000 years, painting in, in caves up until, you know, coins in, in, in the BC era.
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So it, it would be dumb for it not to continue digitally. And I, and I guess that's where the, the real depth of the product lies. I think we're really still just getting started.
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So Top Shot was sort of the spark that introduced people to digital ownership and collecting. And this season and in future seasons, we're focused on deepening that connection.
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So as I mentioned, that'll be through interactive collectibles, autographs, and experiences that bring fans closer to the game. I'll give you an example.
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Uh, we-- Roham and I hosted a group of VIP collectors during the in-season tournament last year, and we asked them, "What excites you the most?"
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And for a lot of them, they were very, very keen on having what they do in a digital world be reflected with perks in a physical world, and what they do in a physical world do the same thing in, in a digital world.
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And that's where, you know, our partnerships with Live Nation and Ticketmaster come into play because we have the ability to offer value and, and experiences that fans may not otherwise get.
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So 99% of basketball fans globally have never actually been to a game, and you can say the same thing for Disney parks, and you can say the same thing for NFL games.
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So it's really important to us that we create experiences for the biggest fans of these IPs that they might not have been able to experience before Top Shot existed.
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Before we move on to part two to talk a few other things, we'll take a quick pause here to thank the sponsors that make this podcast possible.
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I'm happy to remind you that this podcast is sponsored by the Hedera Foundation. The most beloved sports brands understand that what fans want is simple, a reason to be passionate.
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The Hedera Foundation enables brands and fans to share their passion on chain using the Hedera network, the most used sustainable enterprise-grade DLT for the decentralized economy.
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[upbeat music] I want you to touch on, if you can, the kind of... We talked about the athlete piece.
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The IP piece is really interesting to me as well, the way that the NBA view Top Shot as a product from that kinda lofty 2021 NFT bubble compared to now.
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How much appetite are you seeing both from the league and teams and maybe sports leagues and IP in general in doubling down on blockchain products like Top Shot and making sure that they are a long-term thing because they truly believe that the, the fan of the future and the global fan is going to interact in sports in a different way than the fan of 10, 20 years ago?
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One of the many things I love about the league is that they also share this perspective of a long-term view. And when you think about sort of the horizon that the league has, it's, it's infinite, right?
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The NBA's been around for an incredibly long time. They're gonna continue to be around for l- for a long time.
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And how that translates into sort of my path, the way I think about things, is the longer your investment horizon, the longer you have to take risks and try new things and really build for the future.
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And the NBA shares that. Even, you know, from our day-to-day contacts up to Adam Silver, the commissioner of the NBA, they've been incredibly supportive.
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I think they're one of the most forward-thinking entities that exists, and-Every year, they host this NBA tech summit where we get to hear all of the tech that the NBA is focusing on, and it always amazes me how quickly and how nimble, uh, the NBA operates.
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They're always thinking, you know, 10 steps ahead and, and from the fans' experience. You mentioned some of the things that they'll be thinking about. How much does that overlap with your business, so to speak?
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I mean, Top Shot is, is one product, of course. You've, you've got the NFL All Day product. You have the, the Disney partnership as well.
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You obviously mentioned the, the kind of long-term partnership you have with the NBA is not like something that is a one-time sponsorship or a one-time licensing deal. It's a really long-term thing.
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They're, they're equity owners, I believe, in Dapper Labs, and so that kind of makes it a more longer term, more strong foundation for you folks to build as a tech business.
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But I'm curious to hear, there's obviously a lot of interest in blockchain ticketing, fan engagement, all these different things that we kind of hear about that we cover on Sport in Crypto.
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And I'd be really interested to know, now that you have this kind of rabid fan base of collectors in two sports, whether or not there's a temptation to say, "There's something really interesting for us to do with X vendor in ticketing or a loyalty solution for X league or something else within this space as to where blockchain kind of meets culture."
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Yeah.
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So we have, uh, a long-standing partnership with Ticketmaster, and so there have actually been over 10 million, probably many more actually at this point, collectibles that have been minted on the Flow blockchain as a result of that partnership.
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You know, we're growing that partnership this season through the Bengals, Patriots, Jaguars, Texans, and, and others.
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As I mentioned, the NBA continues to be incredibly forward-thinking and open to partners partnering with others in the ecosystem.
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Uh, one other example I'll just add of how forward-thinking the NBA is, is when we explained the importance of the, of decentralized storage to Adam Silver, he was so quick to get it and so matter of fact.
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He really said, you know, "We need the fans to know fundamentally that their digital collectibles are theirs forever, just like their physical collectibles sitting in their closet would be."
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And that's just another fact to support sort of this forward-thinking, um, collaborative environment that the NBA has built amongst, uh, its partners.
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I wanna double down on that permanence piece because I think what people don't really understand because of how speculative NFTs were in 2020 and 2021 is that actually the NFTs themselves, like an ERC-721, is just a standard to create the same attributes that you see in a physical thing than you have in a digital thing, right?
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And so if I own a LeBron James card or a Erling Haaland card, I can do with that what I want. I can put it in my wardrobe. I can put it up on my wall. I can send it to my friends. I can give it to someone as a present.
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I can sell it on a marketplace. I can burn it if I want. I can bury it.
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Uh, I can do whatever y- I want because I bought the item and it's mine, and, you know, I don't own the IP and I can't infringe on it, but it's the exact same thing in a digital dimension.
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And I think it took a lot of people a very long time to understand that.
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But I'm really interested to hear, 'cause I, I think this was in the offing for a long time in terms of putting everything on chain, so there is that permanence. How did you think about that as a business?
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Like, how big a checkpoint was this for, for Dapper Labs to reach for NBA Top Shot?
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Yeah, you know, like many things, we were the first to really bring this to life for mainstream IPs on the blockchain, and, and we intend to continue to be the first and pioneer things that we think make a lot of sense for fans.
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And really when you think about Top Shot, it's more than, um, a collectible or entertainment product, and more so a consumer use case for crypto and blockchain.
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So this is one example of how we're really creating the tools and infrastructure required to create the best fan experiences.
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It's really interesting to see the reaction actually from people in terms of just how excited what they were by that announcement. It was like, "Yes, this makes total sense. Them being on chain makes total sense."
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I wanna ask n- not a tricky question, but one that I've had a, a, a few back and forth with lawyers on is when the IP is on chain and, and you kinda have that kind of permanent aspect on it and it's immutable, does that cause difficulty when you're trying to play in the parameters of how the sports industry feels and thinks about IP?
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'Cause one of the things I've talked about to a lot of sports executives is, "Well, as soon as it goes on chain, we no longer have control, and that's scary for us."
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And so how do you w- walk someone back from the plank when you're kinda having those conversations with these, uh, big IP holders where you're saying, "This is exactly what the fans want, and this is allowing us to replicate what you already have in the physical world.
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It's just digital"? Yeah, so I think we use examples from the physical world to get everyone comfortable.
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And one thing that I did, both when I was at Andreessen but also at, at Dapper, is to get consumer brands comfortable with the technology, and most of that truly is just education. So we're very open with our partners.
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We're constantly sharing. You know, our legal teams are constantly speaking.
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And we think of, of Dapper Labs as truly being the safest and, and most consumer-friendly brand in the, in the industry, so we take that very seriously and spend a lot of time to ensure that the IP is protected.
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And we're very thoughtful in all the steps that we take towards both improving the fan experience, but doing it in a way that's safer for IP partners.
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And more broadly speaking, how different are the conversations-Now compared to 2021, for example, with all IP that you're speaking to, are you seeing much more enthusiasm to kinda look at the blockchain space in a much more serious long-term and less speculative way?
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Or are the same people, like the NBA, who have this kinda tech-forward long-term ambition still at the forefront, or are more people coming out of the woodwork, would you say?
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I think the regulatory environment has made it such that we're seeing increased interest and growth in the industry, which is very exciting and something that I know everyone in the industry has been very keen on.
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Really, our technology is making it simple and evolving with advancements in real time to make sure that collectibles are yours. Uh, so it's about long-term ownership and trust. You mentioned the regulatory piece.
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I think that's very key.
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That is, that is something that I know for fact that big leagues have thrown away six, seven-figure projects that they've built internally that have involved some aspect of on chain away because they were uncertain because, uh, of the regulatory environment.
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I remember when DraftKings kinda closed down Raymakers. That was like a big deal for a lot of rights holders who were kinda looking at getting, getting involved again.
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Obviously, Dapper Labs have had lawsuits that have involved them, uh, where plaintiffs have kind of talked about these, alleged these Top Shots as securities and, and so on and so forth.
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So that kind of uncertain environment is, is very, very difficult, and I'd love to know just how much easier is it, one, to build, and then two, to have conversations with prospective partners when that regulatory environment is, is much clearer.
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Yeah. I think, you know, I'm really excited about where the regulatory environment is going.
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So things like the Genius Act and the Clarity Act have been wonderful for our industry, and it continues to build my conviction in the teams who have really buckled down over the past few years and withstood all of the hurdles that came our way.
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So our-- the lawsuit that we had was dropped, and we're really excited about the prospect of the future and, and creating the
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guardrails that are really going to enable more builders to come in this space and feel that they're building in a more concrete and, and secure and clear environment.
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So I'm starting to see a lot more great entrepreneurs honestly enter the industry, which I think is valuable.
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And then a lot of brands who are no longer afraid of blockchain like they were a few years ago, they're leaning in more, and now everyone wants to have a blockchain strategy.
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The teams that had initially-- or the, the large brands and companies who had initially sort of cut down their efforts in that space, I'm starting to see interest popping back up, and overall it's very exciting. Yeah.
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I, I literally had, uh, inbound from one of the biggest leagues, uh, from someone in a position just before we jumped on the call, from someone in a position who's on the club operations side, and their email was like, "Hey, we help consult with all the clubs internally at the league.
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Can you come speak to us?"
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And that is kind of like, uh, the lightning rod, I suppose, where in the stable coin space, for example, and in finance, we're seeing this decoupling from the speculative crypto market to volumes.
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I think, you know, your former employer, A16Z, did a-a-a-- their amazing annual crypto report and one of the things they noted was there is now a full decoupling of stable coin volumes and the crypto market, which is a big deal because we've never really had that kind of separation from speculation and real product market fit.
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And I suppose now our job in the industry is to find what is next after payments and fiat on chain, and that's gonna be really exciting, and I, and I'm really hopeful that part of that is going to be this kind of intersection of sports culture and blockchain and fandom and, and making fandom digital and more digitally inclusive.
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Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot from the Flow blockchain on, on all the fronts that you mentioned, which is very exciting, but I just can't stress enough how much the work that our team has done to ensure that, that others can build in the space, uh, matters.
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So, you know, the settlement affirming that digital collectibles are not securities, specifically Top Shot moments, has created space for others to build where they might not have had the courage to build before.
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I'd love to kinda finish up on what's next. I mean, you've just announced your biggest roadmap ever when it comes to this '25-'26 season for NBA Top Shot.
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For people that wanna read more about it, if you go to blog.nbatopshot.com, I think it's one of the latest posts, and you can see just how extensive it is.
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I mean, you have to scroll down about seven times to get to the bottom, which, uh, just shows you how much work's gone into it.
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I wanted to ask you, like, you mentioned that a lot of the volume is being driven by the rookies, that 7% of the supply is creating 30% of the volumes.
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How difficult has it been over the years to kinda balance that supply and demand and try and create that feeling of scarcity and match it with the kind of demand you've got within the consumer base, but kind of coming in as well?
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It's the core of the product, right? So we have a whole team that's focused on economy, and this season, Top Shot's continuing to focus on scarcity, authenticity, and connection between fans and, and the game they love.
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So we're gonna continue to spend a lot of time on creating a product that has opportunities for everybody.
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So whether you're a casual fan and you wanna come in and just get a couple moments, there's something for you in, in NBA Top Shot, or if you are a high-end collector and you wanna focus on, on that.
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You know, we had a Wemby moment sell for $145,000 last year. Uh, there's opportunities for you in the product as well.
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So really creating products that have opportunities for any fan that will enable this emotional connection is quite important to us.
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And then going forward, what are some of the things that are exciting you for the months and years to come as, as we finish up? I'm very excited for all that the Flow blockchain is enabling.
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We have more initiatives in the DeFi space, and, and like I mentioned before, we're really focused on building the infrastructure that will enable products that will draw this emotional connection between fans and fandom more broadly.
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Yeah, very interesting. Well, listen, this has been an awesome conversation. I'm, uh, sorry or grateful that we got to do this twice [laughs] to some extent.
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Where can people find out more about you and, uh, what you're doing at Dapper? Yep. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm @r1dh1ma. Fantastic.
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And, uh, you can find us at sportingcrypto.com, or you can find us on LinkedIn or Twitter, uh, @underscoreSportingCrypto on X, formerly Twitter, and on LinkedIn as well.
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And you can find me at PetBerisha, P-E-T-B-E-R-I-S-H-A, on both. And, uh, please do subscribe, like, all that good stuff.
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And just a quick reminder, majority of crypto assets, NFTs or otherwise, are unregulated in the majority of countries, so none of what we have said today is personal, business, finance, tax, anything advice, and please do your own research.
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So thank you very much everyone for listening or watching once again, and we'll have more content for you soon. [outro music]
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[on hold music] Hello, and welcome back to the Sporting Crypto Podcast.
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This is season three, and I'm sat with Radhima Khan from Dapper Labs, the VP of Business Development at Dapper Labs. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
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We were just actually recording, and I forgot to click the video button, which means we've started again, but I, I'm hoping for the listeners and viewers that this is gonna be second time or third time lucky, and it makes for even a better show.
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So Radhima, [laughs] once again, I'd love for you to just tell the audience, uh, a bit about yourself, your background, and why you decided to go and, and, and build at Dapper Labs. Absolutely.
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So I started my career investing in hedge funds, corporate and structured credit primarily, and then I moved over to the Hewlett Foundation to invest in, in a variety of private and public assets, and then got to know the Andreessen Horowitz team being in the valley and joined Andreessen to focus on c-consumer.
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So I spent most of my time on sports, media, entertainment, hospitality, and then ultimately fell in love with blockchain and, and crypto and decided that I wanted to build in this space.
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I got to know the Dapper Labs team very well when I was at Andreessen and was spending a lot of time with NBA and, and I'd introduced Disney to Dapper Labs as well and was really excited about the prospect of turbocharging Dapper Labs' mission to bring blockchain technology to the masses in a m- in a more seamless and fun way.
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What was it about blockchain that got you really interested? What was the kinda light bulb moment for you where you were like, "Yeah, I, I think this is a, this is a career for me going forward"?
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I think blockchain can disrupt the entire financial system as we know it today, and in order to do that, I really believe that we have to get everybody or, or a, a mass amount of people, a billion people engaged with the technology.
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And the most valuable thing that I think Dapper has done and continues to do is to make the technology accessible, and that's really the mission that I wanted to support.
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And then when it comes to kinda culture and sports, why do you think the, the overlap is so important there?
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I mean, you mentioned changing the financial system, but obviously kinda the world that we're both in is more the culture and fandom. Those things are just as pertinent.
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So, so where do you see that crossover being really important? Yes, I think culture and fandom are-- and sports are vessels for technology.
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If you can get people excited about something around a common cause, I think they're willing to try something new and different, and we've seen that across different fan demographics with NBA Top Shot and Disney and NFL, Ticketmaster, Live Nation, a number of, of different groups of fans we've seen emerge and, and really engage with this technology in a way that brings them joy.
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And we were talking a bit off air about how making that joy a longer term thing and building sustainably for the long term is super important.
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And you know, if, if I look at the figures on the volume side for Top Shot, it was about a billion dollars in twenty twenty-one, just over three hundred million in, in twenty twenty-two, and then we've had this kinda consolidation period where it's between forty and sixty million over the next three years.
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And I think in recording number one, you said, "Well, you know, that's just year on year. I look at things in a ten-year cycle," which I thought was really, really interesting.
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I'd love to hear more about what-- why that is and, and, and why you think Dapper is the right kind of business to build for that long term and build this new digital era of fandom.
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It comes down to the leadership team, right? So I think about things in terms of ten years. Like I said, given my background, that's sort of the average life of a venture fund.
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There's also, you know, investing in credit comes with a very long-term, uh, mindset, and I find that the leadership team at Dapper also believes and, and thinks that way.
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So when Roham and I are talking about our platforms and our products, we're thinking about them in terms of ten years.
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How can we make and build products that will be around for decades to come, and how we can-- can we continue to add value for fans and support what fans want when it comes to the sports and, and IPs that they love?
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And you know, conversely, I think I wrote in my newsletter that Q3 2025, and maybe you can correct me if I'm mistaken, is the biggest quarterly transactions that Top Shot has seen since towards the end of twenty twenty-two.
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And I think part of that must be because of some of the things that you folks have sparked in this later season from a product perspective and a, and a, and a collectability perspective.
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I think we were saying before that from my perspective, from the outside in, I've always seen Dapper as first and foremost a, a collectibles product, but perhaps over the years started focusing on things such as gamification and maybe trying to attract kinda fantasy players and, and so on and so forth.
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But it feels like you're, you're doubling down on collectibles and, uh, I'd love to hear about some of the things that you guys are introducing into this new season that is trying to reignite your collector base and bring more into the top of funnel as well.
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Yeah.
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So what started as really a revolution in collectibles has evolved into something much bigger, which is a movement towards deeper fan integration and real digital ownership, and you're seeing that reflected in our platform, uh, both by permanence, where now collectibles will be around for as long as the blockchain's around, you know, hundreds of years.
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And then you can also see that in the way that we're transforming all of our assets to be three-D. So fans can take the assets where they want, when they want in digital spaces where they're spending time.
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We're adding autographs.
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So we have a number of really great initiatives that are really fueled by what we're hearing from our community and the fan base in terms of what they want.Yeah, I think it was one of the biggest roadmap announcements I've ever read from a, a, from any crypto-based business, especially ones that have kind of veered into, um, this cultural space.
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One of the things that really interested me was the, the fandom shock drops, and in the roadmap you wrote, "For viral internet-breaking plays, collectors can expect these moments to go from the court to their collections as fast as possible, capturing the emotional thrill of being a fan while keeping overall supply scarce."
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And that felt really, really, uh, interesting and pertinent to me because we're kind of in this Gen X-ification, short-term attention spans, people talking about sports in a quite weird and virality-driven way.
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I suppose part of the, the roadmap that you've laid out there is, is looking at how you can lean into that as well as the collectability, correct? Yeah.
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So collectors will now be able to line up for packs for the moments that happened just minutes or hours before. And we did test shock drops during NBA playoffs. They were very well-received.
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And sports are truly an emotional experience, and collectibles, especially moments, tap into those emotions better than almost anything.
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So to add on to what you were saying, yes, people want immediate action, uh, that they can take as they're watching a sport.
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And I remember in the early days of Top Shot, we started to notice that people were actually watching NBA games more closely and saying, "Oh, I wanna collect that moment, uh, as soon as it happens."
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So we noticed that behavior and that desire and decided that we wanted to support it with the way that the product is evolving.
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I'd love to hear as well, as I mentioned, this kind of doubling down on collectability, the kind of signature rookie cards, because from a macro perspective, collectibles are really hot right now.
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I think Pokemon cards are at their peak height from a value perspective and from a trading volume perspective, and same with a lot of sports cards and memorabilia.
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And so as you kind of look at the long long term, as you said, the 10-year tenure that you're looking at, uh, building this product with, I suppose you believe that these kind of rookie cards that are being proliferated now on Top Shot will be something that are scarce and these kind of digital artifacts for collectors and sports fans down the line.
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Yeah. Our users love to support rookies and find players when they're early and support them through their journey, and that's a- another behavior that we saw that we really wanted to support.
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And as you mentioned, we're seeing actually a huge percentage of new activity coming from the interest in rookie collectibles.
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So over 30% of the transactions right now come from rookie collectibles, even though rookies only make up 7% of supply. That's incredible. That's a really incredible stat. Wow. That's, that's pretty...
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That's, that's taken me aback a little bit. [laughs] Yeah. And we really care deeply about partnering with athletes and creators broadly, right?
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So we partnered with over 30 players, including over 25 rookies, um, including Cooper Flagg and V.J. Edgecombe.
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And these signatures are especially cool because they're coming with custom bespoke inscriptions for their fans.
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So the top collectors of these players will receive airdrops of custom one-of-one moments saying, "For my top collector," and that's something that when I've talked to NBA players and athletes, uh, across the board, they're really excited about.
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Because today, athletes don't have a lot of visibility into who their biggest fans are.
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And so when, um, Jacob, Martim, and I are talking to players, uh, we just spoke with, with one of the greats, and he was saying, you know, "I'd love to be able to see who my biggest fans are."
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And one of the most special moments is really when players will retweet or comment or engage with their fans in a way that they hadn't before as soon as a fan collects a moment.
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Uh, and it's really amazing for that fan too because historically, the engagement between players and fans has been sort of one way, where fans are just consuming how the players are performing and so forth, but now there's an ability to create sort of a two-way dialogue.
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And it's really hard to scale that, right? And find a, a business market fit for it. So, uh, for example, in '22 and, and '23, I was pitched a lot of businesses that were basically NFT-gated access to X athlete.
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And I was like, "Well, those athletes a lot of the time don't have time to do that one-to-one or one-to-few conversation or relationship because it, it, they just don't have the time," right?
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They also have all these commercial commitments- Mm-hmm...
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and rights to give away, and they have to uphold their brand on social media to ensure that they get endorsements long term, so they can do the one-to-many and have that kind of like bigger way to communicate with people.
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But I actually feel that when you're in the midst of a already culturally relevant thing, like Top Shot or Topps or whatever it may be, I feel like that can have some sort of fit.
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And, and it's really interesting to hear that there's so much demand from, from consumers on the rookie side of things, and then athletes already g- already giving you the feedback that like, "Hey, this is, this is really cool.
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Like, how do we get involved when we know, uh, for sure that someone is like a super fan?" Yeah. And that ranges, um, across, you know, different players.
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So, you know, we're also seeing up-and-coming players like Jake LaRavia, who's breaking out for the Lakers right now, and Ty Jerome, who was one of the most improved players last season.
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And they're not only engaging on Top Shot for the love of collectibles, but they're leaning in because it's such a welcoming and warm place to grow their brand against, you know, with diehard fans.
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And last year, I also recall at the NBA Tech Summit, I was watching, um, Wemby speak, and he was just saying how important it is for him to engage with his fans and, and meet them where they are.
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And so he's really active on social platforms as well.
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And I think it depends on, on the person and the individual, but it's really great to see, uh, athletes have this ability and, and desire to engage with fans in a new way.
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And part of our goal is to enable that-By sharing their most iconic moments and trying to do it in as real time as possible. Yeah. I, I mentioned the Gen X-ification of... Is it Gen X? Gen A? Gen...
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Uh, wh- whichever is the youngest gen now, um, making myself feel old, at least.
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So a lot of these players are in their early 20s as well, and they have been-- they've grown up as digitally native people and young adults.
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And so it's no shock to see a lot of these kinda like younger players engage in a more personalized relationship with some of these fans, or a more unique one.
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You know, over here in the UK, in the soccer world, Erling Haaland launched a YouTube channel. He's, you know, one of the biggest footballers on the planet, and it-- he doesn't care about what the thumbnail looks like.
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It's just kind of like his life in a day, and it's getting like crazy views. And so-- and he's a 23, 24-year-old, um, footballer.
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And so a lot of these athletes presumably are very much at the, if not the cutting edge on the digital side, they're at least very digital native, and they kinda get the Top Shot piece, which is one part of the battle, which I presume you can then double down on with them when you're trying to build some of these experiences and, and, and kinda personalize things for some of these collectors.
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Yeah. Top Shot is really both a collectibles platform, but also a social network for NBA fans by NBA fans. It's really always been built on this emotional connection.
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It's something we talk about in nearly every meeting when we're thinking about new features or how we can support our users.
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And for example, when I'm at, you know, NBA All-Star and I see a parent ripping a pack with their kid or, or saying, "You know, I hope that...
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Like, Top Shot this," you know, that, that's really exciting because it is an emotional connection. It's something that people enjoy.
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It's a product that people enjoy with their friends and family, and that's really what we hope to continue to build. Yeah. And, and that kind of emotional feeling,
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I think a, a lot of the reason this kind of Pokemon boom and this sports collectible, sports trading cards boom has come essentially from people that are in their mid to late 30s, 40s, maybe even early 50s, and that kind of like generational thing where the emotion and the feeling of collecting or ripping packs does translate to a digital experience, right?
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Whether you're doing it in Top Shot or a product like Courtyard, for example, there is that kinda still
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really strange feeling of minting an F- NFT, doing a digital pack, ripping something open that I think is innately human, is kinda part of our culture as humans.
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Uh, collecting is something that we've done for-- or creating culture has been done-- something that we've done for 30,000 years, painting in, in caves up until, you know, coins in, in, in the BC era.
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So it, it would be dumb for it not to continue digitally. And I, and I guess that's where the, the real depth of the product lies. I think we're really still just getting started.
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So Top Shot was sort of the spark that introduced people to digital ownership and collecting. And this season and in future seasons, we're focused on deepening that connection.
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So as I mentioned, that'll be through interactive collectibles, autographs, and experiences that bring fans closer to the game. I'll give you an example.
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Uh, we-- Roham and I hosted a group of VIP collectors during the in-season tournament last year, and we asked them, "What excites you the most?"
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And for a lot of them, they were very, very keen on having what they do in a digital world be reflected with perks in a physical world, and what they do in a physical world do the same thing in, in a digital world.
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And that's where, you know, our partnerships with Live Nation and Ticketmaster come into play because we have the ability to offer value and, and experiences that fans may not otherwise get.
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So 99% of basketball fans globally have never actually been to a game, and you can say the same thing for Disney parks, and you can say the same thing for NFL games.
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So it's really important to us that we create experiences for the biggest fans of these IPs that they might not have been able to experience before Top Shot existed.
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Before we move on to part two to talk a few other things, we'll take a quick pause here to thank the sponsors that make this podcast possible.
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I'm happy to remind you that this podcast is sponsored by the Hedera Foundation. The most beloved sports brands understand that what fans want is simple, a reason to be passionate.
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The Hedera Foundation enables brands and fans to share their passion on chain using the Hedera network, the most used sustainable enterprise-grade DLT for the decentralized economy.
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[upbeat music] I want you to touch on, if you can, the kind of... We talked about the athlete piece.
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The IP piece is really interesting to me as well, the way that the NBA view Top Shot as a product from that kinda lofty 2021 NFT bubble compared to now.
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How much appetite are you seeing both from the league and teams and maybe sports leagues and IP in general in doubling down on blockchain products like Top Shot and making sure that they are a long-term thing because they truly believe that the, the fan of the future and the global fan is going to interact in sports in a different way than the fan of 10, 20 years ago?
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One of the many things I love about the league is that they also share this perspective of a long-term view. And when you think about sort of the horizon that the league has, it's, it's infinite, right?
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The NBA's been around for an incredibly long time. They're gonna continue to be around for l- for a long time.
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And how that translates into sort of my path, the way I think about things, is the longer your investment horizon, the longer you have to take risks and try new things and really build for the future.
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And the NBA shares that. Even, you know, from our day-to-day contacts up to Adam Silver, the commissioner of the NBA, they've been incredibly supportive.
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I think they're one of the most forward-thinking entities that exists, and-Every year, they host this NBA tech summit where we get to hear all of the tech that the NBA is focusing on, and it always amazes me how quickly and how nimble, uh, the NBA operates.
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They're always thinking, you know, 10 steps ahead and, and from the fans' experience. You mentioned some of the things that they'll be thinking about. How much does that overlap with your business, so to speak?
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I mean, Top Shot is, is one product, of course. You've, you've got the NFL All Day product. You have the, the Disney partnership as well.
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You obviously mentioned the, the kind of long-term partnership you have with the NBA is not like something that is a one-time sponsorship or a one-time licensing deal. It's a really long-term thing.
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They're, they're equity owners, I believe, in Dapper Labs, and so that kind of makes it a more longer term, more strong foundation for you folks to build as a tech business.
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But I'm curious to hear, there's obviously a lot of interest in blockchain ticketing, fan engagement, all these different things that we kind of hear about that we cover on Sport in Crypto.
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And I'd be really interested to know, now that you have this kind of rabid fan base of collectors in two sports, whether or not there's a temptation to say, "There's something really interesting for us to do with X vendor in ticketing or a loyalty solution for X league or something else within this space as to where blockchain kind of meets culture."
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Yeah.
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So we have, uh, a long-standing partnership with Ticketmaster, and so there have actually been over 10 million, probably many more actually at this point, collectibles that have been minted on the Flow blockchain as a result of that partnership.
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You know, we're growing that partnership this season through the Bengals, Patriots, Jaguars, Texans, and, and others.
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As I mentioned, the NBA continues to be incredibly forward-thinking and open to partners partnering with others in the ecosystem.
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Uh, one other example I'll just add of how forward-thinking the NBA is, is when we explained the importance of the, of decentralized storage to Adam Silver, he was so quick to get it and so matter of fact.
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He really said, you know, "We need the fans to know fundamentally that their digital collectibles are theirs forever, just like their physical collectibles sitting in their closet would be."
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And that's just another fact to support sort of this forward-thinking, um, collaborative environment that the NBA has built amongst, uh, its partners.
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I wanna double down on that permanence piece because I think what people don't really understand because of how speculative NFTs were in 2020 and 2021 is that actually the NFTs themselves, like an ERC-721, is just a standard to create the same attributes that you see in a physical thing than you have in a digital thing, right?
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And so if I own a LeBron James card or a Erling Haaland card, I can do with that what I want. I can put it in my wardrobe. I can put it up on my wall. I can send it to my friends. I can give it to someone as a present.
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I can sell it on a marketplace. I can burn it if I want. I can bury it.
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Uh, I can do whatever y- I want because I bought the item and it's mine, and, you know, I don't own the IP and I can't infringe on it, but it's the exact same thing in a digital dimension.
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And I think it took a lot of people a very long time to understand that.
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But I'm really interested to hear, 'cause I, I think this was in the offing for a long time in terms of putting everything on chain, so there is that permanence. How did you think about that as a business?
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Like, how big a checkpoint was this for, for Dapper Labs to reach for NBA Top Shot?
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Yeah, you know, like many things, we were the first to really bring this to life for mainstream IPs on the blockchain, and, and we intend to continue to be the first and pioneer things that we think make a lot of sense for fans.
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And really when you think about Top Shot, it's more than, um, a collectible or entertainment product, and more so a consumer use case for crypto and blockchain.
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So this is one example of how we're really creating the tools and infrastructure required to create the best fan experiences.
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It's really interesting to see the reaction actually from people in terms of just how excited what they were by that announcement. It was like, "Yes, this makes total sense. Them being on chain makes total sense."
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I wanna ask n- not a tricky question, but one that I've had a, a, a few back and forth with lawyers on is when the IP is on chain and, and you kinda have that kind of permanent aspect on it and it's immutable, does that cause difficulty when you're trying to play in the parameters of how the sports industry feels and thinks about IP?
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'Cause one of the things I've talked about to a lot of sports executives is, "Well, as soon as it goes on chain, we no longer have control, and that's scary for us."
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And so how do you w- walk someone back from the plank when you're kinda having those conversations with these, uh, big IP holders where you're saying, "This is exactly what the fans want, and this is allowing us to replicate what you already have in the physical world.
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It's just digital"? Yeah, so I think we use examples from the physical world to get everyone comfortable.
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And one thing that I did, both when I was at Andreessen but also at, at Dapper, is to get consumer brands comfortable with the technology, and most of that truly is just education. So we're very open with our partners.
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We're constantly sharing. You know, our legal teams are constantly speaking.
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And we think of, of Dapper Labs as truly being the safest and, and most consumer-friendly brand in the, in the industry, so we take that very seriously and spend a lot of time to ensure that the IP is protected.
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And we're very thoughtful in all the steps that we take towards both improving the fan experience, but doing it in a way that's safer for IP partners.
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And more broadly speaking, how different are the conversations-Now compared to 2021, for example, with all IP that you're speaking to, are you seeing much more enthusiasm to kinda look at the blockchain space in a much more serious long-term and less speculative way?
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Or are the same people, like the NBA, who have this kinda tech-forward long-term ambition still at the forefront, or are more people coming out of the woodwork, would you say?
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I think the regulatory environment has made it such that we're seeing increased interest and growth in the industry, which is very exciting and something that I know everyone in the industry has been very keen on.
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Really, our technology is making it simple and evolving with advancements in real time to make sure that collectibles are yours. Uh, so it's about long-term ownership and trust. You mentioned the regulatory piece.
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I think that's very key.
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That is, that is something that I know for fact that big leagues have thrown away six, seven-figure projects that they've built internally that have involved some aspect of on chain away because they were uncertain because, uh, of the regulatory environment.
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I remember when DraftKings kinda closed down Raymakers. That was like a big deal for a lot of rights holders who were kinda looking at getting, getting involved again.
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Obviously, Dapper Labs have had lawsuits that have involved them, uh, where plaintiffs have kind of talked about these, alleged these Top Shots as securities and, and so on and so forth.
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So that kind of uncertain environment is, is very, very difficult, and I'd love to know just how much easier is it, one, to build, and then two, to have conversations with prospective partners when that regulatory environment is, is much clearer.
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Yeah. I think, you know, I'm really excited about where the regulatory environment is going.
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So things like the Genius Act and the Clarity Act have been wonderful for our industry, and it continues to build my conviction in the teams who have really buckled down over the past few years and withstood all of the hurdles that came our way.
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So our-- the lawsuit that we had was dropped, and we're really excited about the prospect of the future and, and creating the
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guardrails that are really going to enable more builders to come in this space and feel that they're building in a more concrete and, and secure and clear environment.
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So I'm starting to see a lot more great entrepreneurs honestly enter the industry, which I think is valuable.
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And then a lot of brands who are no longer afraid of blockchain like they were a few years ago, they're leaning in more, and now everyone wants to have a blockchain strategy.
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The teams that had initially-- or the, the large brands and companies who had initially sort of cut down their efforts in that space, I'm starting to see interest popping back up, and overall it's very exciting. Yeah.
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I, I literally had, uh, inbound from one of the biggest leagues, uh, from someone in a position just before we jumped on the call, from someone in a position who's on the club operations side, and their email was like, "Hey, we help consult with all the clubs internally at the league.
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Can you come speak to us?"
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And that is kind of like, uh, the lightning rod, I suppose, where in the stable coin space, for example, and in finance, we're seeing this decoupling from the speculative crypto market to volumes.
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I think, you know, your former employer, A16Z, did a-a-a-- their amazing annual crypto report and one of the things they noted was there is now a full decoupling of stable coin volumes and the crypto market, which is a big deal because we've never really had that kind of separation from speculation and real product market fit.
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And I suppose now our job in the industry is to find what is next after payments and fiat on chain, and that's gonna be really exciting, and I, and I'm really hopeful that part of that is going to be this kind of intersection of sports culture and blockchain and fandom and, and making fandom digital and more digitally inclusive.
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Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot from the Flow blockchain on, on all the fronts that you mentioned, which is very exciting, but I just can't stress enough how much the work that our team has done to ensure that, that others can build in the space, uh, matters.
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So, you know, the settlement affirming that digital collectibles are not securities, specifically Top Shot moments, has created space for others to build where they might not have had the courage to build before.
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I'd love to kinda finish up on what's next. I mean, you've just announced your biggest roadmap ever when it comes to this '25-'26 season for NBA Top Shot.
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For people that wanna read more about it, if you go to blog.nbatopshot.com, I think it's one of the latest posts, and you can see just how extensive it is.
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I mean, you have to scroll down about seven times to get to the bottom, which, uh, just shows you how much work's gone into it.
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I wanted to ask you, like, you mentioned that a lot of the volume is being driven by the rookies, that 7% of the supply is creating 30% of the volumes.
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How difficult has it been over the years to kinda balance that supply and demand and try and create that feeling of scarcity and match it with the kind of demand you've got within the consumer base, but kind of coming in as well?
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It's the core of the product, right? So we have a whole team that's focused on economy, and this season, Top Shot's continuing to focus on scarcity, authenticity, and connection between fans and, and the game they love.
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So we're gonna continue to spend a lot of time on creating a product that has opportunities for everybody.
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So whether you're a casual fan and you wanna come in and just get a couple moments, there's something for you in, in NBA Top Shot, or if you are a high-end collector and you wanna focus on, on that.
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You know, we had a Wemby moment sell for $145,000 last year. Uh, there's opportunities for you in the product as well.
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So really creating products that have opportunities for any fan that will enable this emotional connection is quite important to us.
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And then going forward, what are some of the things that are exciting you for the months and years to come as, as we finish up? I'm very excited for all that the Flow blockchain is enabling.
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We have more initiatives in the DeFi space, and, and like I mentioned before, we're really focused on building the infrastructure that will enable products that will draw this emotional connection between fans and fandom more broadly.
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Yeah, very interesting. Well, listen, this has been an awesome conversation. I'm, uh, sorry or grateful that we got to do this twice [laughs] to some extent.
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Where can people find out more about you and, uh, what you're doing at Dapper? Yep. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm @r1dh1ma. Fantastic.
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And, uh, you can find us at sportingcrypto.com, or you can find us on LinkedIn or Twitter, uh, @underscoreSportingCrypto on X, formerly Twitter, and on LinkedIn as well.
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And you can find me at PetBerisha, P-E-T-B-E-R-I-S-H-A, on both. And, uh, please do subscribe, like, all that good stuff.
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And just a quick reminder, majority of crypto assets, NFTs or otherwise, are unregulated in the majority of countries, so none of what we have said today is personal, business, finance, tax, anything advice, and please do your own research.
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So thank you very much everyone for listening or watching once again, and we'll have more content for you soon. [outro music]
