Institutional Betrayal: #IAmJaneDoe Movement

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You're listening to Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFRO 100.5 FM. We're
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coming to you from the unceded traditional territories of the Squamish, Musqueam,
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and Tsleil-Waututh Nations around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernadine Fox,
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and this is the show that dares to change how
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we think about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
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When I've never been further Knowing what the hell I'm
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gonna do When I can't seem to find my way
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Under or over.
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Or through You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Call
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of Radio, CFR 0100.5 FM. I'm Bernadine Fox, and today
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we're going to have... conversation about institutional betrayal. Most of
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us have had the experience of going to someone in authority,
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someone who was supposed to help, and being turned away
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or dismissed or worse, told that we were lying. That
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could be a hospital, a school, a church, a police department,
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or a regulatory body. You reported something, you asked for help,
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and instead of being supported, you were doubted, ignored, or
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even punished for speaking up. There's a name for that,
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and it does real psychological harm, sometimes even more harm. Often,
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I think probably Erin, our guest today, is going to
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make it clearer for us. More harm than the original
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trauma itself. And because when the place you turn to
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for protection becomes the place that hurts you, something fundamental breaks.
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And of course, the most commonly known example of this
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currently is the Cornell 7 case. But make no mistake,
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Jane Doe's story is not unique. TikTok alone reported that
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there have been 31,500 posts since this story broke that
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have included the hashtag IamJaneDoe and with that 71 million views.
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IamJaneDoe has become a global movement with women of all
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ages from those who are over 70 years of age
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to as young as those allowed to post online. disclosing
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about their own experience of being drugged and assaulted by
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a group of men. Today I'm speaking with Erin McGinnis,
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who is a licensed psychotherapist in LA. And I just
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want to remind everyone, we rarely ever talk to therapists
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here on Retreading Madness. We prefer to get what we
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believe is true from those with lived experience. But today
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I felt there was no better person to talk to
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about institutional betrayal than than someone who's in the thick
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of it. So we're going to talk about what institutional
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betrayal is, how institutions cover their own tracks, why so
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many survivors stay silent, and what it would actually look
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like for institutions to do the right thing. So welcome, Erin.
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Thank you. Welcome to the show. Thank you for coming.
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Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor
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to be here, and I really think this is such
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an important topic.
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Yeah, it is. It's one that we haven't talked about.
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It's one of those ones that everybody knew it was
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going on. Yes. But nobody knew how to talk about it.
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I think that's probably it. And with that, I want
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to tell a story about, I'm 68, so I'm old
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at this point. But when I was 13, I lived
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in the country in Alberta. And I remember a friend
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of mine, we were in a school classroom. And she
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looked at me and the other person that was in
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the classroom and said to us without ever emoting a feeling,
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just said that she had been to a party over
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the weekend and that she had been raped by five men.
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Or five boys, actually. I shouldn't call them men because
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they were teenagers.
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Wow.
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I remember that story and I remember thinking, I have
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no idea what to say to you.
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And I.
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I didn't know how to think about it. I didn't
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know what to do about it. Nobody talked about it
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in anything that I had ever known. And, yeah, it
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just nothing happened because of it. And so, you know,
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Cornell 7 has been going on for a very long time.
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And it is an example of institutional betrayal.
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A hundred percent.
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Yes.
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Yeah. Yeah. Can you kind of describe, maybe better than
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I can, what institutional betrayal is? Yes.
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So just to kind of back up, you know, I
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am a licensed psychotherapist, but I'm also a survivor myself.
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I was in a very abusive relationship when I was 19,
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and it was amazing.
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To me how much.
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Everyone knew that this was happening to me. He was
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very violent and no one stepped in, tried to protect me,
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did anything about it. And my mom had to really
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fight for me with the police to get just a
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little bit of accountability from him.
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Wow.
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And Then my story went on because I didn't really
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get the help that I needed to heal from that trauma.
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And I didn't know at the time that that really
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set me up for more abusive relationships. And so I
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had a bunch of abusive relationships. And thank God, none
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of the relationships were violent like that. But there was
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a lot of coercive control.
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Right.
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And emotional abuse.
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And as an adult, and even as a licensed therapist myself,
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I could not find a therapist who could help me
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with this. And every time I went to therapy, I
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got the same kind of victim blaming.
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In return. And so I.
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Really sought out to figure out how to heal from
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this myself. but also develop my own framework to help
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other people. And when I started to develop that, I
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finally found one person who specialized in narcissistic abuse recovery.
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And this is Los Angeles. And this isn't that long ago.
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So you can imagine she.
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Was very full. And she And she really helped me.
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She changed my life.
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It was six months after that that I quit my
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very toxic job, started my private practice, started specializing.
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In this, and met my husband.
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And so I really feel very passionately about institutional betrayal
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because I have experienced this on many levels myself.
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Right.
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But my.
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Clients, the people I work with, them, have experienced this.
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If there was abuse and they.
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Try to go get help, there are rarely any success
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stories with them getting the help that they need.
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And this is from.
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When you say help, are you talking about going to
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the police? Are you talking about going to therapists or...
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Where are they seeking that help that they're not getting
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any results?
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So it's the family court system. One, Title IX, that
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has been coming up in the Cornell case.
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Sorry, we're in Canada. So what's it? Yes.
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So Title IX is essentially there for universities, college campuses
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in the United States to help They're supposed to be
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there to help victims. So it's a place where you're
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supposed to be able to go to report sexual assault,
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sexual abuse, and they're supposed to do their own investigation
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into that matter. And in the Cornell case, I think
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there were two that were expelled.
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I can't remember.
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Exactly off the top of my head, but the rest
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of them, their punishment was.
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To write an essay.
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Hmm.
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And so this is not a unique Title IX experience
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for a lot of victims.
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Right.
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So again, that's another institutional betrayal. Trying to get restraining orders.
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Trying to, you know, go to the police about abuse.
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And also therapy. There's a lot of my clients who
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come in who have had really, really bad experiences with
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other therapists.
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And so, you know, abusers exist not because they're.
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So incredibly intelligent and they're great strategizers and they're like
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these like evil geniuses.
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They're really not.
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They exist because the institutions around them Do not hold
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them accountable.
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Right.
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We have a breakdown in systems, not just in the
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United States, but globally.
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And I would say that those systems come out of,
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if you take it all the way back, right, it's
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not just the systems that are failing victims. But those
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systems seem to operate, as far as I can tell,
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in the same way that dysfunctional families do, right? You
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have the abuser and you have the enablers and you
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have the people who look away and the people who
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make excuses. And then you have the victim who's basically
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bearing the brunt of all of it. And then you
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go out into social systems, whether it's the university or
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the police or whatever, and they are replicating the same
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patterns that dysfunctional families have. Have you found that or
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is that something?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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And I think, you know, I think it's sometimes institutional
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betrayal and I, and I want to kind of just
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parse that out from, from abuse, right? So that institutional
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betrayal doesn't have to be.
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Over abuse, right?
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It can just be prolonging. So this is what we
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see sometimes in a title nine situation. Someone makes a
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report and then They don't hear anything for six months.
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And there was a recent article in the LA Times
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here in Los Angeles talking about the percentage, a large
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percentage of people who file restraining orders don't follow through.
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All the way for that restraining order. So they drop
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out of the process.
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And so I think what we've usually done when we
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see people statistics like that is we again we blame
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victims we say oh well that's because you know victims
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are not reliable they probably went back to the abuser
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or something like that or it was a lie to
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begin with yeah or is a lie to begin with
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or something like that but really if you look at
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that process the process is broken right the process is
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demanding too much of survivors and victims.
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Yeah, it's almost like you have to report it and
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then you have to bug people to investigate it. And
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then you have to stay on top of them to
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continue investigating it. And when they come up with weird ideas,
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like in the case of therapy abuse, where the therapist
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is sleeping with the client, they have this idea somehow
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it's consensual. And so therefore it's the victim's fault. And
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then you have to educate them on the law because
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in Canada, that's still a crime. And so but they
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don't often know that. And so it just it just
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keeps going on and on and on. And, you know,
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by at some point it becomes too much.
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Absolutely.
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And and a really horrific example that's happening often is
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when someone has children with an abuser and is in
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family court.
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And what they have to do to advocate for themselves.
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I mean, it is wild.
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And it's so exhausting for people. They get so burnt
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out because it's so easy for an abuser to weaponize
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the legal system. It's so easy for an abuser to
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file a restraining order first and make up a bunch
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of stuff. It's so easy for an abuser to say,
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this is parental alienation.
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Right.
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And then.
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It's terrifying. It's terrifying for victims.
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And so we need better systems and we need the
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systems to hold abusers accountable. And a lot of the
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people I work with before they were first sexually abused
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or assaulted or before they were in their first abusive relationship,
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they had this idea that that these systems were just,
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that they were protective. So that's the betrayal part. It's
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that right after one of the most horrific incidents of
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your life, when you are at your lowest, you turn
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to someone or some place that you think is going
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to be protecting.
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You, and then they don't.
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They say, horrific.
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Horrible things, blaming you. They start interrogating you as the
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victim and acting like you're the perpetrator.
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So now you're talking about friends and family doing this,
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or are you still talking about institutions?
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I'm still talking about institutions. A lot of people, that
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is their experience. And that is what is happening, that
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they will go to the police and try to report
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something that's very significant. very significant and very dangerous. And
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they are interrogated as if they are the perpetrator.
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Right. Is that still happening even when people show up
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with evidence? Because I work around therapy harm a lot.
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I've been doing it as a volunteer for many, many years.
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And one of the things, as you say, they do.
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It just seems to be uncanny how often this happens.
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where an investigation will drag out for a year or
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two or three in one case, and they still haven't
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investigated it. And it's still, you know, some, you know,
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it's a critical kind of harm, like sexual assault of
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a client, and they still are dragging their feet, even
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though they have tremendous evidence that it has happened. So
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are you still finding the same thing, whether it's domestic
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violence or sexual assault?
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100% over and over and over again.
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And I'm.
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Not going to be able to talk about any client-specific stories,
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but it happens often. And yes, there are receipts. There
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are messages. There's a mountain of evidence. And it's really
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tragic and sad.
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It really is.
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Because this is why we have such an abusive culture
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is it's a lack of accountability. That's what I always
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say is that, you know, I don't talk about people
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being narcissists, even though I say I specialize in narcissistic
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abuse recovery. I work with folks who are in relationships
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with people who have a problem with accountability because abuse
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is always a pattern. And so Accountability and abuse are
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mutually exclusive. They cannot exist together. And so if we
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want to really shift the culture around abuse of any kind,
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we need to start holding people accountable. And these systems
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are broken over and over and over again. They protect
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perpetrators and abusers and they blame victims.
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And so the complaint process, say, or the reporting process,
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I mean, I've heard this myself, where people say, you know,
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they don't really want to deal with the issues or
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the messiness of the trauma itself, and they just say
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to people, you know, well, did you report it? Did
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you make a report? As if somehow the report itself
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is going to fix it or... or decide for, I
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don't know what they're doing, but it's like, that's the
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gate that you want people to go into, to go
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there and report it as if all is going to
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be well once that report is in. And so we
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have systems in our own social sphere that is promoting
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institutional harm.
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100%.
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And again, it's victim blaming.
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Because When you report, you're most likely going to be
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met with that institutional betrayal. And that becomes, in a
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lot of ways, more traumatic than the original abuse. So
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I do trauma therapy. I do internal family systems and EMDRs.
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To help people heal from trauma. But we spend a
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lot of time in the beginning needing to work on
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that institutional betrayal before we can ever get to their
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abusive relationship.
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Right.
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Or that sexual assault or whatever happened.
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Right. But we just need to take a little break, Erin.
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But don't worry, folks. We're going to come back and
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we're going to talk some more about institutional harm and betrayal.
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We'll be right back.
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Because Vancouver Cooperative Radio has been around since 1975. We
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know that one size doesn't fit all. Go to coopradio.org
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and donate.
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You're listening to Wreathed.
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In Madness on Vancouver Call Radio, CFRO 100.5 FM.
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I'm Bernadine Fox, and today I'm speaking.
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With Aaron McGinnis. Because a licensed psychotherapist in LA who's
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here to talk with us about institutional betrayal. And it's
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such an important topic. From what I'm gathering from what
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you're saying, Erin, is that in all honesty, anybody who's
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been a victim of trauma is likely also a victim
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of institutional betrayal on some level.
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A lot of the times. And it is a very
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deep cut for a lot of people.
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Sorry, would you say that that trauma, the institutional betrayal
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is actually larger than the original trauma or how does
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that cut?
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Yes, I would in a lot of ways.
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And I know that sounds counterintuitive, but the reason why
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is because it's that double injury. So if you were
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already cut and then I just come in cut you
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in the exact same place, it's going to be a
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deeper cut. So it's essentially making the wound so much bigger.
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And we have some research to demonstrate that, that when people,
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you know, experience institutional betrayal, they had much more significant
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symptoms than when they didn't following that trauma of that abuse,
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whether that was sexual abuse or violence or whatever that was.
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So it's a very, very deep cut. It is very traumatic.
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Because a lot of the times when we're abused, we
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have cognitive dissonance, which means that we have that betrayal blindness.
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And this is the way that the psyche protects itself
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from really being able to take advantage all of the
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new information that it's getting all at once. So it's
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really confusing if you're with an abuser, for example, that
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really loves you one minute and then the next minute
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is causing significant harm. And then the next minute isn't
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taking any accountability for that harm. And then again, they're
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being really, really kind and you're the love of my life.
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And so that's already extremely confusing. So Anytime anyone's in
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any kind of abusive situation, they're going to be experiencing
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it not as abuse, but as confusion.
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Right.
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Of course. Yes.
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And then as that's playing out, they have a lot
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of work to do. A lot of victims of abuse
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have a lot of work to do. This also happens
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with sexual abuse. A lot of sexual abuse happens when
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you know that person.
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Right.
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It's not really someone who just jumps out of the bushes.
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It's usually a really good friend. It's a family member.
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It's someone that you love. It's someone that you trust.
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It's someone that's embedded in your community and you can't
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really get away from them. So whenever we experience abuse
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from people like that, it is extremely disorienting and very confusing.
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And so what the psyche tends to do is blame
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the self, right? Because that's easier because we have more
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control over ourselves. So we might originally say, well, maybe
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I'm not really understanding the situation correctly.
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Maybe I need to be more, you know, less sensitive
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or something like that.
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And so if in time you finally can overcome all
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of that I finally come to the conclusion, you know what?
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This is very abusive. What's been happening to me is
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not okay.
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And then you try to go to the people who
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are supposed to help you, the institutions that are supposed
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to help you, and they don't. Not only that, they
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blame you. That is definitely pouring salt into the wound.
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So it's extremely, extremely.
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Traumatizing because not only do you have to work through
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all the cognitive dissonance of this one person that you
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thought that you loved and trusted and really trying to
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come to terms with the fact that this one person
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is not who you thought that they were, but that
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there are maybe people out there that are intentionally abusive
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and that there are people out there that don't have empathy.
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But then you have to say, okay, not only that,
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But these places that I always thought were safe.
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Are actually not at all. They're not protective at all.
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They don't care.
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So that's a lot for someone to try to heal
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from all at once. And so in my work with folks,
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we have to start with that institutional betrayal first and
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kind of work our way back. That's the largest injury
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that they're coming in with typically. It's not just that
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their paradigm needs to shift around one individual person. It's
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that they're having this massive paradigm shift around the entire world.
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Their worldview has been shattered.
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Shattered.
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So I want to selfishly take this and apply it
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to therapy harm because I'm looking at what you're saying
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and I can see that, you know, people come into
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therapy often because they've been traumatized out there in the
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world and they're trying to figure out how to move
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on from that, how to heal from that. And when
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00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:12.000
their therapist turns around and abuses them as well or
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00:26:13.579 --> 00:26:21.609
exploits them as well, That's another level of harm that's
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on the border of institutional betrayal. But when they try
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and then take that and report it to an institution
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within the mental health industry that, of course, presents themselves
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as safe and wonderful and there to help people, and
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00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:41.099
they get traumatized by them as well, it seems to
406
00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:43.720
me we have now three levels of trauma, not two.
407
00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:45.240
That's right.
408
00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:50.890
Well, so you're talking about something that happens actually because
409
00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:54.529
I have worked with several people like this who have
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00:26:54.609 --> 00:26:57.069
been in a very abusive situation.
411
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Then they go to therapy for help. That therapist abuses them.
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So that's abuse again.
413
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And then they try to, you know, get legal help
414
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or report it to the governing body.
415
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.490
Of that therapist and they never hear back.
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00:27:21.109 --> 00:27:21.309
Right.
417
00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:25.950
It just drags on and on and on. Or they
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give them the runaround.
419
00:27:26.930 --> 00:27:30.019
That's not true for everybody. I've heard of really quick
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00:27:30.230 --> 00:27:33.539
turnarounds and people losing their license or having to do
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00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:41.109
all kinds of retraining or have supervision or something, something
422
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.630
that the institution is attempting to try and make that
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therapist be accountable. Absolutely. But there's also the other part
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of it where the mental health industry has not done
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their job of holding their own accountable.
426
00:27:57.710 --> 00:28:00.309
That's so true. And it's.
427
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Shocking to me when that institutional betrayal happens within that
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governing body.
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I know that for that one, there are a lot
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of therapists that lose their license.
431
00:28:16.750 --> 00:28:20.250
I get the bulletins once a month on everybody who
432
00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:24.940
lost their license and exactly why, um, or people who
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00:28:24.980 --> 00:28:30.380
have been fined or whatever. Um, but I definitely heard
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that some people get that betrayal. actually, from that institution
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as well. So yeah, so you're dealing with several, several
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layers when that happens. And it's really hard. And for
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people who have been abused by a therapist in any way,
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it is extraordinarily traumatic. It is one of the worst things.
439
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So the people that I've worked with who come in
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with that We spend a good year of trauma therapy,
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at least, just working on that.
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Right.
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Just that trauma right there. Just with that therapist.
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Because it's really hard to trust anyone after something like
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that happens.
446
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Almost impossible.
447
00:29:27.009 --> 00:29:27.210
Yeah.
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I know people that will never trust again. And, of course,
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you know, my.
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Perspective on that is you don't have to trust anybody
451
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you just need to trust yourself so that's right that's
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where we go So why isn't the mental health industry
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doing more? I mean, of all the industries out there
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that you would think you could trust to look at
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an issue of trauma, even if it's one of their
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own doing it, and do the right thing, you would
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think it is the mental health industry. And I mean,
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there are more and more survivors coming out on social
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media all the time, and they are getting attacked by
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professionals who are making the most incredibly inane and harmful
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and outrageous statements to them that it.
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Makes me.
463
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Wonder how it is that the mental health industry can't
464
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seem to wrap themselves around this issue and One, get
465
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it that they're not going to deny this away any
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more than the church did. Why are they not embracing
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it and making sure they do the right thing? All
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the industries, I would think they would be the one
469
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who jumped in and said, no, we have to fix
470
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this right now. What's going on?
471
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:51.640
Yeah, that's a really good question. I really wish I
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knew the answer to that.
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Yeah.
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You know, I think it's a combination of a lot
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of things. I think, I just think culturally, we have
476
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:11.160
all been, you know, brainwashed, essentially. And mental health, the
477
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.759
mental health field is a part of that. The mental
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00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:22.200
health field has misogyny and racism and classism and ableism
479
00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:25.829
baked into it just as much as every other institution.
480
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And I think we have to do a lot of
481
00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:37.599
work around that, around like, you know, decolonizing therapy around,
482
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:43.599
you know, really working on that anti misogyny work because
483
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historically it has been a place that doesn't protect people.
484
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:58.640
Per se, right? It protects certain people like Freud. Don't
485
00:31:58.660 --> 00:32:05.940
get me started on Freud, right? And the DSM, like
486
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:10.200
the DSM is not adequate. This is terrible.
487
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Victims have an entire book of, of labels and there's
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none for perpetrators.
489
00:32:19.539 --> 00:32:22.119
Yeah, it was told if we took out every diagnosis
490
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.319
in those four or five hundred pages, however long it is,
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00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:26.539
that has to do with trauma, we would end up
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00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:28.859
with a pamphlet. The DSM would be a pamphlet.
493
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That's what it should be. It should be a pamphlet.
494
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It should be like CPTSD and PTSD. And then here's
495
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all the ways in which it can present itself.
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Right.
497
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Right.
498
00:32:39.730 --> 00:32:42.750
And then and then we have the other part is
499
00:32:42.809 --> 00:32:43.950
about perpetrators.
500
00:32:44.569 --> 00:32:44.809
Right.
501
00:32:45.869 --> 00:32:47.430
And a lack of accountability. Right.
502
00:32:48.150 --> 00:32:50.470
Yeah, there, there really is. I don't think that does the,
503
00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:53.109
do the perpetrators have any, I guess they do have
504
00:32:53.190 --> 00:32:54.849
some categories in there, but.
505
00:32:56.509 --> 00:32:57.069
Not really.
506
00:32:57.269 --> 00:33:01.119
I mean, the, the diagnosis, the diagnostic criteria, even for
507
00:33:01.410 --> 00:33:07.400
narcissistic personality disorder is pretty misleading. In my opinion, it
508
00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:11.480
is not really, it's not capturing abusive people. You could
509
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:13.700
be narcissistic and not be abusive.
510
00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:15.119
Right.
511
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:21.970
So, It's not really capturing perpetrators. We need more diagnoses
512
00:33:22.369 --> 00:33:27.069
on perpetrators so that we can spot them earlier.
513
00:33:27.089 --> 00:33:29.009
Right.
514
00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:32.829
And we can protect more people from them and maybe
515
00:33:32.869 --> 00:33:34.009
even prevent them.
516
00:33:34.089 --> 00:33:37.170
From becoming perpetrators when they're younger, right?
517
00:33:37.210 --> 00:33:41.440
Like to find like what is it that makes people
518
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.140
do this to other people? And we know a lot
519
00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:47.410
of that has to do with culture. And so if
520
00:33:47.509 --> 00:33:51.630
our culture got healthier, we would see a lot less
521
00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:55.190
abuse from one individual to another individual.
522
00:33:55.730 --> 00:33:58.970
And then we're back to institutional betrayal and systems that
523
00:33:59.130 --> 00:34:01.880
are embedded in our social systems and in our families
524
00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:02.890
and just go on.
525
00:34:02.900 --> 00:34:03.420
That's right.
526
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.200
That's right. Because the culture holds the family. The family
527
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.059
holds the individual. So if the culture is sick, then
528
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:11.840
how are families not going to be sick?
529
00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:12.440
Yeah.
530
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.119
And if our families are sick, of course, people are
531
00:34:15.139 --> 00:34:15.719
going to be sick.
532
00:34:16.989 --> 00:34:19.969
You know, this also goes back to the fact that
533
00:34:19.989 --> 00:34:23.420
I've been around long enough that I was at the
534
00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:27.119
forefront of child sexual abuse coming out. I was, you know,
535
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.539
around when rape was being talked about, when domestic violence
536
00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:35.349
was finally being acknowledged and recognized and, you know, police
537
00:34:35.389 --> 00:34:39.929
officers would at least take the man, the abuser, whoever
538
00:34:39.989 --> 00:34:42.630
it was, I shouldn't say man because it's not always true,
539
00:34:43.130 --> 00:34:46.809
but out of the house and they would get charged
540
00:34:46.869 --> 00:34:50.030
and women had safe places to go. I've been through
541
00:34:50.130 --> 00:34:55.190
clergy abuse coming through and teachers being identified in schools
542
00:34:55.269 --> 00:35:00.340
and daycares and the whole human trafficking stuff that's been
543
00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:03.860
finally coming to the forefront and the Me Too movement
544
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:08.619
and now therapy harm. And it seems to me that
545
00:35:09.619 --> 00:35:12.480
it's the same systems over and over and over again
546
00:35:12.849 --> 00:35:16.050
I thought we were getting better. But when I look
547
00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:20.000
at the stats, we have the same stats. Nothing has changed.
548
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.260
And so it really is frustrating that after 50 years,
549
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:32.059
I think it's been 50 years, 40, 50 years, we
550
00:35:32.139 --> 00:35:37.630
are in the same place. Yeah. I would imagine that
551
00:35:37.849 --> 00:35:42.559
we could probably point the finger at our systems that
552
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.980
haven't changed. And we see how they haven't changed when
553
00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:50.179
it comes to institutional betrayal. We just need to take
554
00:35:50.219 --> 00:35:53.039
another little break, folks, but we will be right back
555
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:58.159
with Erin and talking a little bit more about institutional
556
00:35:58.179 --> 00:36:01.889
betrayal and how it operates in our systems, in our societies,
557
00:36:02.630 --> 00:36:05.710
what to do about it, and how to identify. So
558
00:36:06.449 --> 00:36:07.010
we'll be right back.
559
00:36:22.030 --> 00:36:31.400
You talk like You own my name I stay quiet.
560
00:36:32.380 --> 00:36:39.670
Took the blame I've been too far I stayed too
561
00:36:39.789 --> 00:36:45.730
long You said I'd break You.
562
00:36:45.929 --> 00:36:52.329
Were wrong I said enough I.
563
00:36:52.159 --> 00:37:04.119
Drew the line I chose myself This time I'm still standing.
564
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:13.179
I'm still standing Oh I'm still.
565
00:37:12.619 --> 00:37:29.510
Standing Say what you want I'm still standing You like.
566
00:37:25.409 --> 00:37:26.630
Me best.
567
00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:35.360
When I stayed small When I said no You.
568
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:40.099
Lost control I was sweet.
569
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:45.139
When I stayed scared Now.
570
00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:49.949
I speak up You're unprepared.
571
00:37:51.190 --> 00:37:56.409
I won't explain I won't bend.
572
00:37:58.420 --> 00:38:02.800
I won't bleed for.
573
00:38:01.750 --> 00:38:07.750
Your peace again I'm still standing.
574
00:38:07.670 --> 00:38:17.000
I'm still standing You can walk away I'm still standing
575
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:23.280
Say what you want I'm still standing.
576
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:45.369
You said, love, don't leave a mark. But you knew
577
00:38:47.090 --> 00:38:54.920
where it hurt. You call it strength, call it heat.
578
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.940
I survived every bit.
579
00:39:03.340 --> 00:39:06.400
I'm still standing.
580
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.469
I'm still standing.
581
00:39:08.739 --> 00:39:26.190
You don't know me. I'm still standing. Still standing.
582
00:39:26.449 --> 00:39:28.150
Still standing.
583
00:39:28.789 --> 00:39:29.789
You are listening to CIOs.
584
00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:36.300
Vancouver's Co-op Radio, 100.5 FM, radio without borders.
585
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:41.349
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFRO, 100.5 FM.
586
00:39:41.769 --> 00:39:44.429
I'm Bernadine Fox, and I'm speaking with Erin McGinnis about
587
00:39:44.489 --> 00:39:49.750
institutional betrayal and how it fits into all of, really,
588
00:39:49.789 --> 00:39:53.400
our systems out there in so many ways. I mean,
589
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:57.389
even if you look at bullying in schools, which, again,
590
00:39:57.409 --> 00:40:00.650
I keep wondering, why have they not figured out how
591
00:40:00.730 --> 00:40:04.150
to deal with this in our elementary schools? I mean,
592
00:40:04.170 --> 00:40:06.130
you would think in any place that it would be
593
00:40:06.389 --> 00:40:09.369
easiest to deal with, it would be there. But no,
594
00:40:09.449 --> 00:40:11.929
they still haven't managed to figure out how to stop
595
00:40:11.969 --> 00:40:17.230
a bully. Tell me about institutional DARVO. And maybe we
596
00:40:17.269 --> 00:40:19.750
need to start with DARVO. What is DARVO?
597
00:40:20.949 --> 00:40:21.369
Yeah, so.
598
00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:24.929
And just on the bullying, I want to say that
599
00:40:25.110 --> 00:40:27.829
I was bullied a lot in school when I was younger.
600
00:40:28.329 --> 00:40:34.389
And I saw that the school did nothing, nothing about it. Oh,
601
00:40:34.610 --> 00:40:35.730
they don't at all.
602
00:40:35.750 --> 00:40:36.750
It's shocking.
603
00:40:37.590 --> 00:40:40.969
So if we just look at the microcosm of schools,
604
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:45.559
we could take that into any other institution. And I
605
00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:48.800
think it's this idea that people have that is just,
606
00:40:49.099 --> 00:40:49.719
that's just life.
607
00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:51.849
That's just the way it is.
608
00:40:53.469 --> 00:40:56.989
And there's this idea that the victims of the bullies
609
00:40:57.070 --> 00:41:02.750
are somehow asking for it or they're inevitably going to
610
00:41:02.789 --> 00:41:07.429
be bullied for some reason or that it's the victim's
611
00:41:07.690 --> 00:41:10.550
job to need to stand up for themselves and advocate
612
00:41:10.570 --> 00:41:12.730
for themselves or not make it easy on the bully.
613
00:41:13.550 --> 00:41:13.829
Right.
614
00:41:14.389 --> 00:41:18.710
And so that is a little bit of that DARBO again.
615
00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:21.809
So it's deny abuse, reverse victim offender.
616
00:41:22.449 --> 00:41:22.650
Right.
617
00:41:23.610 --> 00:41:27.699
So you could say, you know, oh, well, they're not really,
618
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:29.639
you know, abusing you.
619
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:35.579
They're they're taunting you. Right. And try to minimize that.
620
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:39.409
And then and then, you know, to reverse the victim
621
00:41:39.469 --> 00:41:43.190
and offender is to is to basically blame the victim
622
00:41:43.929 --> 00:41:45.349
instead of the offender.
623
00:41:46.510 --> 00:41:48.429
So to say, well, you know.
624
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.719
Maybe you shouldn't be wearing that outfit here today, or
625
00:41:53.300 --> 00:41:58.869
maybe you shouldn't walk like that, right? And so DARVO
626
00:41:59.010 --> 00:42:04.909
happens a lot in any abusive relationship. And it sounds
627
00:42:04.989 --> 00:42:07.130
a lot like whenever you're trying to hold someone accountable,
628
00:42:07.150 --> 00:42:11.409
because again, abusers do not like to be held accountable.
629
00:42:12.409 --> 00:42:15.300
They deny that they're abusing you. They deny it. They
630
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.139
minimize it. There's a lot of ways in which they
631
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:19.949
can do this. And then they reverse the victim and offender.
632
00:42:20.030 --> 00:42:22.510
So they make themselves the victim and you the offender.
633
00:42:24.050 --> 00:42:28.829
And so when this is an institutional betrayal and there's
634
00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:34.690
a denial, there's a rejection of that allegation, there's an attack,
635
00:42:35.710 --> 00:42:39.469
there's an undermining of that credibility, and then you reverse
636
00:42:39.769 --> 00:42:42.570
the victim and offender roles. So this is where people
637
00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:47.650
often feel Like they are the ones being interrogated when
638
00:42:47.670 --> 00:42:48.409
they're the victims.
639
00:42:51.670 --> 00:42:54.449
One of the things that I believe about this, you know,
640
00:42:55.010 --> 00:42:59.349
allowing the offender to become the victim and attacking the
641
00:42:59.389 --> 00:43:02.719
victims is that it makes it easier. It's sort of
642
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.519
like the, you know, did you report it? Did you
643
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.099
move through this gate and report it so that we
644
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:10.599
don't have to deal with it anymore because these people
645
00:43:10.699 --> 00:43:13.360
will deal with it and decide what is true and
646
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:18.289
yada yada. But when we make the offender into the victim,
647
00:43:18.829 --> 00:43:25.639
what also happens is that it's easier to accept that
648
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:30.320
because the accountability stops. And you were just talking about accountability, right?
649
00:43:30.340 --> 00:43:33.239
So if the offender really is the victim, then they
650
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:37.139
don't have to become accountable. And therefore, for the rest
651
00:43:37.179 --> 00:43:39.880
of the people around the victim and the offender, nothing
652
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.389
has to change, right? Maybe the victim has to change,
653
00:43:43.750 --> 00:43:47.960
but nothing... about the power balance has to change at all.
654
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:51.340
They don't have to deal with any change. They don't
655
00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:54.360
have to deal with an offender leaving a house or
656
00:43:54.380 --> 00:43:58.960
an institution doesn't have to deal with taking the license
657
00:43:59.019 --> 00:44:02.880
away from somebody who may turn around and sue them.
658
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.739
It is really very, very simple to make the victim
659
00:44:07.820 --> 00:44:10.739
the problem because the victim is usually the one with
660
00:44:10.780 --> 00:44:11.280
no power.
661
00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:14.099
That's right. That's absolutely correct.
662
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.400
And, you know, I've seen, you know, there's a lot
663
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:22.280
of institutions like Title IX, and I know you guys
664
00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:24.960
don't have Title IX in Canada, but it's really there
665
00:44:25.510 --> 00:44:31.889
to protect the university and the university's reputation.
666
00:44:32.389 --> 00:44:32.650
Right.
667
00:44:33.530 --> 00:44:39.679
And so a lot of times when people are reporting
668
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:45.050
things to certain, like, let's just say HR, right? HR
669
00:44:45.110 --> 00:44:49.030
is they're hired by the corporation in which you're working.
670
00:44:50.949 --> 00:45:00.440
So again, these institutions are often incentivized to not necessarily
671
00:45:00.739 --> 00:45:03.860
protect the victim, but to kind of just get rid
672
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:09.679
of the problem. And this can also happen with police.
673
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.840
I've heard of cases where it's just shocking. It's like,
674
00:45:14.900 --> 00:45:17.260
do they not want to fill out the paperwork? Like
675
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:20.099
what is happening? Why are they not taking this report?
676
00:45:22.179 --> 00:45:25.110
And so we just see this a lot.
677
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:29.829
And so, or sometimes they'll take the report and then
678
00:45:29.969 --> 00:45:31.250
they don't ever follow up.
679
00:45:31.989 --> 00:45:33.829
Right.
680
00:45:33.849 --> 00:45:39.130
And there's really no interview of anyone and there's no investigation.
681
00:45:40.510 --> 00:45:47.469
And so it, it takes a lot of advocacy to really.
682
00:45:48.670 --> 00:45:50.909
Be a victim in these institutions.
683
00:45:51.550 --> 00:45:55.010
And that's the thing that victims don't necessarily have.
684
00:45:55.050 --> 00:45:57.769
They don't have the bandwidth to be their own advocate
685
00:45:58.050 --> 00:45:58.849
at a time like that.
686
00:45:58.869 --> 00:45:59.769
Right.
687
00:45:59.929 --> 00:46:01.190
And they shouldn't be asked to.
688
00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:07.510
No, they shouldn't. Absolutely not. And a lot of them
689
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:13.329
don't have the information. They don't have the legal expertise.
690
00:46:13.429 --> 00:46:18.760
They don't have the sense of having self-worth if they
691
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:23.659
come there traumatized. There's so many ways that they are
692
00:46:24.260 --> 00:46:35.380
handicapped in advocating for themselves. Absolutely. If an institution was to, whatever,
693
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:40.030
whether it's the police, Cornell University, or a mental health
694
00:46:40.070 --> 00:46:45.639
industry organization, If they were to actually look at doing
695
00:46:45.699 --> 00:46:50.949
something concrete that is different, that would hold offenders accountable,
696
00:46:51.610 --> 00:46:52.449
what would that look like?
697
00:46:55.050 --> 00:47:01.030
Well, I think it would be a huge change, you know,
698
00:47:01.090 --> 00:47:03.730
and I don't really know the ins and outs of,
699
00:47:04.090 --> 00:47:07.309
you know, all of that change and what would need
700
00:47:07.349 --> 00:47:10.199
to go into that. But Jennifer Freight is the woman
701
00:47:10.340 --> 00:47:14.659
who coined the term institutional betrayal. And she's the woman
702
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:18.880
who's done most of the research on this. And she's
703
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:22.519
come up with something called institutional courage. And there's the
704
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:28.860
Center for Institutional Courage that she's developed to help institutions
705
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:37.550
learn how to hold these perpetrators more accountable and or
706
00:47:37.610 --> 00:47:41.730
protect victims more. So it's a commitment to truth and
707
00:47:42.150 --> 00:47:46.650
transparency and being ethical, essentially. Yes.
708
00:47:49.130 --> 00:47:53.260
And what has to change for that to happen? So
709
00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:56.539
for instance, one of the things that bugs me about
710
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:03.599
complaints going into a mental health organization is that they
711
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:08.050
seem to not understand that when they accept a complaint,
712
00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:12.030
they all have a conflict of interest in that moment, right?
713
00:48:12.409 --> 00:48:17.250
This is a fellow member of their association, and they
714
00:48:17.289 --> 00:48:20.090
may be in management or whatever, but they have a
715
00:48:20.150 --> 00:48:23.190
conflict of interest because it is their association that they
716
00:48:23.230 --> 00:48:30.769
have to investigate this member whose actions may well make
717
00:48:30.809 --> 00:48:38.909
them look bad. So I'm So I, how, how does that, how,
718
00:48:39.030 --> 00:48:43.550
how can we change that so that that's not what's happening? Yeah.
719
00:48:43.610 --> 00:48:45.170
And that, that is exactly it.
720
00:48:45.230 --> 00:48:48.030
I think there's a lot of people trying to cover
721
00:48:48.130 --> 00:48:52.110
up and, and make sure that they don't look bad.
722
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:58.119
So I, I mean, it's, it's hard, but you know,
723
00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:02.039
if I were able to rule the world for a bit,
724
00:49:02.059 --> 00:49:08.860
I would have, you know, third parties that were, you know,
725
00:49:10.219 --> 00:49:16.190
not biased. Being, you know, an entity that could look
726
00:49:16.269 --> 00:49:22.800
into all of these allegations with that institution, right? So
727
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:27.480
like if it's a mental health, you should have people
728
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:32.320
who can come in outside of that institution and look
729
00:49:32.420 --> 00:49:33.920
at these allegations, right?
730
00:49:35.340 --> 00:49:37.659
They would say that they have that because there's usually
731
00:49:37.699 --> 00:49:39.900
a member of the public sitting on them and they're
732
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:44.800
often the wife of somebody in the organization or a
733
00:49:45.030 --> 00:49:48.389
friend or something. There's just no, there's no way to
734
00:49:48.429 --> 00:49:52.010
really track whether they are unbiased.
735
00:49:53.170 --> 00:49:53.969
Yeah, that's the thing.
736
00:49:54.070 --> 00:49:56.670
There is no way to really, you would have to really,
737
00:49:56.690 --> 00:50:00.789
I mean, if it's just some person, right, that's not
738
00:50:00.829 --> 00:50:03.630
really enough. I think you would need an entire group
739
00:50:04.869 --> 00:50:09.190
you know, system. You would need a governing body of
740
00:50:09.250 --> 00:50:14.230
some kind that would be able to hold these institutions
741
00:50:14.289 --> 00:50:17.929
accountable and really look at the data. I mean, right now,
742
00:50:18.389 --> 00:50:21.690
what's really happening with Title IX, for example, are the
743
00:50:21.750 --> 00:50:26.710
school newspapers are the ones that are holding Title IX
744
00:50:26.750 --> 00:50:31.489
accountable because they are, you know, there was an article
745
00:50:31.530 --> 00:50:36.159
written about UCLA and years ago about their Title IX
746
00:50:36.230 --> 00:50:38.150
and the amount of complaints that they get and the
747
00:50:38.230 --> 00:50:43.329
amount of follow through that's actually done and things like that. So,
748
00:50:43.349 --> 00:50:46.650
you know, and in the Cornell 7, this was also
749
00:50:46.670 --> 00:50:50.280
the school newspaper that was the first kind of whistleblower
750
00:50:50.389 --> 00:50:50.760
on this.
751
00:50:50.889 --> 00:50:54.380
So, you know, I don't think it should come to that.
752
00:50:54.860 --> 00:50:57.519
I think that there should be other ways of getting
753
00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:04.690
this information and looking at How many complaints are happening
754
00:51:04.710 --> 00:51:11.309
and what's being done about them? Like regular investigations into
755
00:51:11.349 --> 00:51:15.269
these institutions that are supposed to be holding people accountable
756
00:51:15.769 --> 00:51:16.989
and protecting victims.
757
00:51:17.690 --> 00:51:20.550
You know, I heard a horrible stat about Cornell, which
758
00:51:20.650 --> 00:51:25.369
is that they were getting a complaint report about a
759
00:51:25.429 --> 00:51:31.250
sexual assault on their campus every other day. Every other day.
760
00:51:33.030 --> 00:51:35.530
for the most part, they were doing what you said,
761
00:51:36.150 --> 00:51:40.550
giving out assignments for essays. So let's go back to
762
00:51:40.690 --> 00:51:47.949
survivors of institutional betrayal who are the ones that don't
763
00:51:48.030 --> 00:51:51.010
have the power to make any of these changes happen
764
00:51:51.210 --> 00:51:53.650
necessarily when they're in the thick of it. What can
765
00:51:53.690 --> 00:51:57.199
they do? How do we support them? What can they
766
00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:58.139
do for themselves?
767
00:52:00.309 --> 00:52:03.969
I think this is really where it's so important for
768
00:52:04.030 --> 00:52:08.380
people to know that they're not alone, that this is,
769
00:52:09.179 --> 00:52:12.760
you know, I know it's happening to them, but it's
770
00:52:12.780 --> 00:52:13.960
not happening to just them.
771
00:52:14.019 --> 00:52:16.539
It's happening to a lot of people.
772
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.969
And I think this is really the power of knowing
773
00:52:20.989 --> 00:52:26.590
other survivors and other victims. And there's groups out there,
774
00:52:26.650 --> 00:52:30.869
there's people talking about this on social media, um, there's
775
00:52:30.889 --> 00:52:32.329
a lot more talk about this now.
776
00:52:32.690 --> 00:52:35.090
And I think that's really.
777
00:52:34.670 --> 00:52:39.769
Healing for people to, to just know that they're not alone,
778
00:52:39.909 --> 00:52:42.590
that this isn't just something that's just happening to them
779
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:45.280
because again, there's so much victim blaming.
780
00:52:44.909 --> 00:52:46.340
That becomes internalized.
781
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:49.699
And I think when people can see that it's not
782
00:52:49.739 --> 00:52:55.679
just them, then there's a lot less blame that's internalized there.
783
00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:56.559
Yeah.
784
00:52:57.599 --> 00:52:57.820
Yeah.
785
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:01.530
And it kind of, um, that I, I facilitate peer
786
00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:04.269
support groups for therapy harm survivors. And one of the
787
00:53:04.329 --> 00:53:09.730
things that I see constantly is that there is this
788
00:53:09.769 --> 00:53:14.130
sort of thing that happens when people hear their story
789
00:53:14.190 --> 00:53:16.650
coming out of someone else's mouth and you can just
790
00:53:16.809 --> 00:53:24.030
see their bodies relaxing into themselves again. You know, they
791
00:53:24.070 --> 00:53:27.349
get it that what happened to them was not okay
792
00:53:27.369 --> 00:53:29.530
because they can hear it coming out of somebody else.
793
00:53:29.989 --> 00:53:33.179
They also get it that how they experienced it and
794
00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:35.420
what came of it was normal. It was a normal
795
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:37.079
response to what happened to them.
796
00:53:38.059 --> 00:53:38.659
Absolutely.
797
00:53:39.139 --> 00:53:39.739
Absolutely.
798
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:41.139
And I think that's so important.
799
00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:44.530
Yeah, it is. Where can people get information about this?
800
00:53:46.230 --> 00:53:49.269
On my sub stack, I write about this and other
801
00:53:49.369 --> 00:53:54.969
things regularly. It's called Erin Nicole McGinnis, LMFT.
802
00:53:54.989 --> 00:53:56.489
That's up stack.
803
00:53:56.889 --> 00:53:57.739
I'll put a link in.
804
00:53:58.039 --> 00:53:58.420
Okay.
805
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:04.619
Mm hmm. Okay. And is that accessible information for basically
806
00:54:04.659 --> 00:54:07.139
the public in terms of not, not in terms of
807
00:54:07.300 --> 00:54:10.300
being able to access it, but in terms of, uh,
808
00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:15.550
it's not a bunch of, sorry, it's not psych language
809
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:18.449
that will go over people's heads if they don't have
810
00:54:18.510 --> 00:54:19.510
a psych bathroom.
811
00:54:20.849 --> 00:54:24.559
No, no, this is, this is, um, it's called letters
812
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:27.900
of unlearning and it's really helping people to try to
813
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:33.239
heal from abuse and betrayal, coercive control and things like that.
814
00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:36.900
So there's, um, ways to just try to heal your
815
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:41.030
nervous system or understand and make sense of what you
816
00:54:41.090 --> 00:54:42.090
might've experienced.
817
00:54:42.969 --> 00:54:43.150
Yeah.
818
00:54:44.150 --> 00:54:48.170
Okay. Well, thank you, Aaron. I appreciate you coming and
819
00:54:48.210 --> 00:54:52.630
chatting with us about this and, um, having a great conversation.
820
00:54:52.650 --> 00:54:58.130
I always love these kinds of conversations because it gets
821
00:54:58.190 --> 00:55:03.250
information out there that's really, really vital to people to survive. And,
822
00:55:03.809 --> 00:55:06.989
you know, therapy harm has a, you may or may
823
00:55:07.030 --> 00:55:11.010
not know this, but survivors of therapy harm have a much,
824
00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:13.639
what's the word? I want to say threat, but I'm
825
00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:16.360
not sure that's the right word, but they're more likely
826
00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:19.980
to die by suicide. Many, many times more likely.
827
00:55:20.019 --> 00:55:20.300
Yes.
828
00:55:20.579 --> 00:55:24.400
Suicide. than any other population in the general population. And
829
00:55:24.460 --> 00:55:28.320
so I, I just, I feel like it's, this has
830
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:31.039
been an important conversation around that. So thank you.
831
00:55:31.059 --> 00:55:33.400
And thank you so much for having me.
832
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:35.519
You're welcome. And we'll be right back folks.
833
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:59.760
Oh, I'm not the wound. I'm not the fall. Not
834
00:55:59.780 --> 00:56:00.900
the silence.
835
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:07.559
Not the wall. I'm not the night they couldn't see.
836
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:15.210
I'm the best me rising free. I'm not what happened
837
00:56:15.269 --> 00:56:15.769
to me.
838
00:56:17.909 --> 00:56:20.829
I'm what I choose to be.
839
00:56:23.889 --> 00:56:29.659
Each step I take, I shift, I rise The past
840
00:56:29.780 --> 00:56:32.679
is all before my eyes.
841
00:56:34.179 --> 00:56:39.500
I'm not what happened to me I'm.
842
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:41.420
What I choose to.
843
00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:49.630
Be Each step I take, I shift, I rise The
844
00:56:49.710 --> 00:56:51.889
past is all before.
845
00:56:51.369 --> 00:56:52.610
My eyes.
846
00:56:55.489 --> 00:56:59.309
Not the moment, not the mark.
847
00:57:00.969 --> 00:57:06.280
I am more than what went dark I hold the
848
00:57:06.360 --> 00:57:07.980
sun behind.
849
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:09.579
My skin.
850
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:15.619
I plant the truth and grow within.
851
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:17.320
I'm not what happened.
852
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:25.739
To me I'm what I choose to be Each breath
853
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:31.750
I take, I shift, I grind The story ends, the
854
00:57:31.809 --> 00:57:36.289
soul flies.
855
00:57:35.469 --> 00:57:57.280
I know what happened to me Rahm-i-Loh sahti na.
856
00:58:29.929 --> 00:58:38.820
You're listening to Co-op Radio, 100.5 FM, www.coopradio.org. People's Radio Station,
857
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:45.440
supported by you, the listener. Become a member today at www.coopradio.org, because...
858
00:58:44.860 --> 00:58:45.260
You know.
859
00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:51.280
It's a sin to be rich, but it's a low-down
860
00:58:51.389 --> 00:58:52.469
shame to be poor.
861
00:58:53.789 --> 00:58:57.179
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver Co-op Radio, CFR
862
00:58:57.260 --> 00:59:01.820
or 100.5 FM. I'm Bernadine Fox, and that's our show.
863
00:59:02.619 --> 00:59:05.269
My thanks to Aaron McGinnis for this chat about how
864
00:59:05.369 --> 00:59:09.929
institutional betrayal happens, who it victimizes, and how that plays out.
865
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:13.280
in the broader context of our social fabric. Music was
866
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:16.699
by Sherry Ulrich and Karen Holt. Thanks for joining us today.
867
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:21.380
Stay safe out there. You've just listened to ReThreading Madness,
868
00:59:21.420 --> 00:59:23.900
where we dare to change how we think about mental health.
869
00:59:24.389 --> 00:59:28.929
We air live on Vancouver Co-op Radio CFRO 100.5 FM
870
00:59:29.309 --> 00:59:33.909
every Tuesday at 5 p.m. or online at coopradio.org. If
871
00:59:33.949 --> 00:59:37.510
you have questions or feedback about this program or want
872
00:59:37.530 --> 00:59:40.170
to share your story or have something to say to us,
873
00:59:40.409 --> 00:59:42.489
we want to hear from you. You can reach us
874
00:59:42.659 --> 00:59:43.199
by email.
875
00:59:43.590 --> 00:59:46.059
Rethreadingmadness at coopradio.org.
876
00:59:46.500 --> 00:59:48.820
This is Bernadine Fox. We'll be back next week.
877
00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:49.699
Until then.