00:00:00
Feike Sijbesma: We define leadership as you need to have a vision, you need to be connected with your people in the world, you need to implement that vision by being decisive and then generate results and develop people, et cetera, et cetera, all the leadership characteristic. But for me the whole leadership journey starts with insight, insight in yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, insight in the people you work with, and insight in the world you operate in.
00:00:31
Nanaz Mohtashami: Welcome to Redefiners, a podcast designed for daring leaders who are changing what it means to lead in today's increasingly complex world. I'm Nanaz Mohtashami, a leadership advisor at Russell Reynolds Associates.
00:00:43
Clarke Murphy: And I am Clarke Murphy, the former chief executive and also a leadership advisor. Nanaz and I have spent our careers exploring what works and what's next in the realm of leadership.
00:00:52
Nanaz Mohtashami: In each episode we ask our guests deep and provocative questions about how they've challenge the norms and how they've redefined their organizations and ultimately themselves as leaders.
00:01:03
Clarke Murphy: Also, you can answer this one question, how are you redefining your leadership?
00:01:08
Nanaz Mohtashami: Perhaps the boldest question yet.
00:01:11
Clarke Murphy: Conversations that matter, inspiration first all whether you're kicking off your career or crafting your legacy. Thanks for joining us. Let's dive in.
00:01:22
Nanaz Mohtashami: Hi everyone, and welcome to Redefiners. Clark, I am so excited about today's episode, as we get to talk with a truly global leader who has shown an awful lot of empathy and concern for people around the world. Sustainability and innovation are at the core of his values. Now I've had the pleasure of working firsthand with our guest during what actually turned out to be really quite an intense and challenging nine months, and I have to say I was hugely impressed. They say that it's when the chips are down that you really get to see someone's true colors, how they act when they're under pressure. And honestly what I saw beneath all the achievements and the accolades is a man who's truly kind, funny, thoughtful, and really quite courageous.
00:02:07
Clarke Murphy: Well, I'm excited as well, Nanaz. He has so much to say about transformation and adversity and change both for himself and the company. But this episode is bittersweet. Nanaz, my co- host, my good friend, and other than our mid- year review this is our last recording together. Boo. 500, 000 downloads. We've had a great time. We spar well. We encourage each other. We've gone through COVID recordings and kids and children and dogs in the background and everything else, and a little bit of Persian sophistication to raise the bar. You are an unmatched partner, and all I can say is I'm going to miss you a lot, and so will all of our listeners.
00:02:46
Nanaz Mohtashami: Clark, you are too kind. Thank you. I have goosebumps as I hear your very kind, thoughtful words. Look, I am definitely going to miss co- hosting with you and meeting our amazing guests.
00:02:58
Clarke Murphy: There we go. So listeners, she told me it wasn't about me, it's all about her.
00:03:04
Nanaz Mohtashami: Better believe it. You better believe it. It's not you. It's not you, Clark. For sure it's not you this time.
00:03:11
Clarke Murphy: Many times have we heard that in our lives and you're like, " Sure." Okay. No, we're not ready for goodbyes yet because we have a great, great guest to introduce and his name is Feike Sijbesma. Until recently Feike was the CEO at Royal DSM, where he transformed the company from bulk chemicals to being a leader in nutrition, health and bio- sciences, not your average transformation. He's currently DSM's honoree chair and also a board member of the World Economic Forum.
Even more impressively, he was awarded the United Nations 2010 Humanitarian of the Year Award, and since then he's been a constant proponent of global equity, equality, and a proven transformative leader. Feike, we're so excited to have you here to learn from you and to talk a bit. Welcome to Redefiners.
00:04:01
Feike Sijbesma: Thank you. Thank you, Nanaz and Clarke.
00:04:01
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, if we can we'd love to start with the early years. Take us back. You've been kind in sharing with me your story of some of the childhood struggles that you've had, which I think some people may not believe, given everything that you've achieved. Why was school so difficult when you clearly have the ability to succeed and more?
00:04:21
Feike Sijbesma: Oh gosh, where did you got that from, Nanaz? I was not extremely successful at elementary school. I needed to change halfway elementary school because I think people didn't have a word for that at that moment, but I think I was dyslectic, well, most likely. I'm still. So I needed to move school. That was not easy. My parents didn't find that very promising, oldest of four kids. I did the six years of the high school, but every year just on. So after that I wanted to go to university. My wish was to do medical molecular biology. The school said, well, it is a miracle you finished the school, having done your exam to go to university, but molecular biology will be too complicated for you. And my father, who has been very influential, said, " Well, if you want do it. I believe in you. I always did. So far you got all negative advices and showed to contrary, so please do." I did it, and in the third year of my study I got a prize. Being the best student in the Netherlands you get a sum of money and an award. The sum of money as a student was the most important and I thought, hey, I'm not that stupid. That's good, maybe the first moment that I thought maybe I can do something and mean something, and from there I developed further. And then I studied molecular medical biology and later on I did my MBA.
00:05:54
Nanaz Mohtashami: And did you have an idea then in that first sort of success and moment of confidence, an idea or an aspiration of what you wanted to go on to do?
00:06:03
Feike Sijbesma: Yes. I studied biology, biotechnology, and I studied business administration, so I thought I wanted to combine both. I didn't want to go for my PhD. I didn't want to go to research. I wanted to go to business. So I told all my friends I will work for a company with an unpronounceable name in English, which was the biggest biotech company in the Netherlands at that moment in time. It was so logical with my studies that I should enter there, so I told all my friends, that will be my career.
So I sent a letter to them and in a couple of weeks, two weeks, I got the letter back, " Thanks, but there is no position for somebody with your background. We keep it in file if applicable and we might ever come back on that or not." So that was again a disappointment, because I look stupid for my friends because I told them already I would work there.
So I called the company and I said, "There is a mistake here because with my background I'm very useful for your company, so please allow me." They said " No". I said, " Okay, who is your boss?" " Who is my boss?" Yeah, you work for HR. Who is your boss? Can I speak with him or her?" She said, " No, but I will tell him."
The boss called two days later, said, " There's no place for you." I said, " Always. If you want always. Give me 10 minutes of your time next week." He said, " Well, I do that. You can enter 10 minutes before 2: 00 and at 2:00 you are gone." And I entered there and I stayed for half an hour, an hour. And he said, " Well, maybe we should hire you." So then I had a lot of other interviews, and at the end they hired me and the rest is history.
I had a strong ambition that I needed to show, but that maybe also came from my younger years where people said, well, you will not make it most likely, maybe not smart enough. And in the study I learned the contrary of that, so I felt let me prove. So I was ambitious, if I need to be honest.
But also I thought let's explore. And by the way, that's also a message I give to my children when they ask, " Daddy, what do you expect from us and where do we end up?" Of course I found it dangerous with two boys having the so- called successful father, being the CEO and expectations. But I always say, " Hey guys, you've got your body and your mind only once in your life. Find out what is in there, the unwrapped gift that you are yourself, your mind, your body, your heart. Find out who you are with your strengths, your weaknesses, your passions, and try to develop something which you think fits with you." And I have been exploring that also in my career.
00:08:51
Clarke Murphy: It's an amazing story of persistence, that's for sure. I do have to share that I have from 30 years ago the bank that I wanted to work for in New York turned me down. Well, I didn't know, and I kept calling and calling and calling and they knew, the HR department knew they had already turned me down. And eventually somebody said, " My God, this guy won't leave us alone. He seems incredibly polite. We might as well bring them in." To make a long story short, I had a letter of rejection for employment and then five weeks later I have an offer of employment, and they're framed up in my bedroom, so I relate to persistence even when we may not know where it's going.
But can you tell us, Feike, DSM, can you explain the company, and then of course part of what it's transformation is? It stands for Dutch State Mines, but it became something incredibly different over time, and certainly while you were one of the leaders and then the chief executive. Can you explain to our listeners DSM?
00:09:43
Feike Sijbesma: A few things. Later on Gist-brocades was acquired by DSM, and that's the way I came into DSM. DSM was founded in 1902, and DSM started indeed as Dutch State Mines, coal mining company owned by the Dutch government in the south of the Netherlands. And at this moment it's not Dutch anymore, it's all over the world. It's not owned by the state anymore. They're gone for decades and we have no mines anymore. But we kept the three letters, DSM. Nowadays the younger generation of DSM said it stands for doing something meaningful. And it's not my invention, but theirs, and I like it. We changed the company... The generation before me changed the coal mining operations and closed it down and changed the company to build chemical company, very successful polyethylene polypropylene, all kinds of bulk chemicals. And in my tenure of 14 years at the helm we changed it further, from a biochemical company into science- based company, mainly in life sciences and nutrition, the biggest in the world in health, in biomedical and all of that stuff, and kinds of sustainable living, if you want to call it like that. So I changed the company quite drastically, divested many parts, acquired new parts, changed, increased the innovation budgets tremendously, moved from purely cost leadership to marketing and R&D and innovation, so a lot of changes in the company, because we didn't change only the portfolio, but we changed therefore also the cultural way to operate. We have in that period made it to the most sustainable company in our industry, won all prizes on that, which I found important, but also generated a lot of shareholders value, 450% over those years. So I wanted to prove also that doing well financially, economically by doing good for the world can go hand in hand together. Although there was a lot of skeptic reactions at that moment in time, but when I handed it over to my successes, people say, oh, you are right. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, doing well, doing good. Even if I fast forward another 15 years, those two things have to go, will go, must go hand in hand together, otherwise you lose your customers, you lose society, you lose your employees, et cetera.
00:12:14
Nanaz Mohtashami: Can I jump in on that? So you led this incredible change, not just for the company, but actually as you say, I think the change that you've led on the sustainability front is really quite revolutionary. How did you know what to do? With all due respect, you had only ever worked at DSM. Where did the inspiration come from? Why did you do it? What was driving you?
00:12:38
Feike Sijbesma: I was making in Gist-brocades - DSM fast career. And in the very beginning I liked that. Hey, I make more salary, I'm doing well. And then I start realizing it is nice that you make career, but with your career you increase your influence, your impact, maybe your power even. And all of that gives responsibility, and what are you doing with the responsibility? And this is for me the most important characteristic of leadership. We define leadership as you need to have a vision, you need to be connected with your people in the world, you need to implement that vision by being decisive and then generate results and develop people, et cetera, et cetera, all the leadership characteristics. But for me it starts... The whole leadership journey starts not with that. It starts with insight, insight in yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, insight in the people you work with, and insight in the world you operate in. And insight you only get when you listen, when you read, when you observe, when you travel. The difficult or the sad thing is when people develop to leaders they are more and more on stage telling, teaching, they are more and more making the stories instead of listening to stories, and therefore have a risk not to develop new insights, and I found that important. The other thing, Nanaz, is I'm a biologist. I grew up with Darwin and he is my great hero. Obviously I never met him, but he is my great hero. And what he wrote in maybe one of the most important books of the world, The Origin of Species, where we all come from, to my own surprise, and Darwin was surprised, it is not the biggest, it's not the fastest, but it is the fittest who will survive, and fittest not the one who when most of the gym, but the one who is the most adaptive. And I felt always as a company you need to be adaptive. Not only species, but also people and organizations need to be adaptive. And nothing feels more comfortable than putting your anchors and stay on the place where you are. That feels comfortable, but is not good, and not moving feels not taking risks, but at the long run it is also a big, big risk often. So therefore, inspired by Darwin, I said we should move, we should change, we should dare to change. So the deeper insights I got from speaking, learning from people around me, and the guts to do that I got from Darwin.
00:15:18
Clarke Murphy: I love that. I recently published a book with the firm on sustainable leaders and we built out a framework of these hundred leaders and what they had in common as CEOs, which was innovation and inclusion, inclusion around listening and leading, complexity and long- term thinking. But the sidebar to the whole book for me and for those of us involved was like this moment right now, those leaders when we interviewed them were asked these same similar questions around sustainability and success, which can go hand in hand as you say, was that just in the interviews was the incredible listening, that I was the only person in the world in that moment with that leader.
And I think outside of this scientific framework we developed was this realization that the most successful sustainable leaders are incredible listeners. Not just their ears, but in fact the interplay of listening and talking and listening and talking, as you say it's developing insights that then when they made a decision, because of listening they were pulling so many people with them. And I believe fundamentally that the hierarchical leader moment is over and that great leaders are in fact creating great followers. And you said just a minute ago we needed a different operating model, different people and different culture. So how did you bring the people along, particularly as you changed some of the people?
00:16:42
Feike Sijbesma: By setting the example, by asking questions to your people. If you want people to do A you can say, " You should do A." You can also say, " What would hold you back of doing A?" And if you say it in the first way, most likely you mobilize defense mechanisms with people because they feel attacked. If you ask it in a second way, what hold you back doing that, you trigger creativity with people in their mind.
Or if something went wrong, the people came to me and said we did it wrong here or whatever and we lost a lot of money, then I always ask, " Who is responsible for that? Who is accountable?" I remember one occasion where something went wrong with an acquisition and at the end they needed to find out for me who was responsible. And they came back and said, the tax department.
No, no, no, no. The tax department is walls and paper and chairs and tables. It doesn't speak. There's somebody. And then at the end I got an email, the whole group got an email of the second person in tax department that said, " I was mainly responsible for it, and this is what I did wrong, and this is what I didn't see, and this is what I learned from that, and we will do better."
And I said, " Would you all come next day at 9: 00 in my office?" They were all there. And I said to the person, " Thank you. Now we know what went wrong. We know who was accountable. You shared it with other people. We learned from it. Great." The meeting was over 30 seconds and the rest looked like, and now? I said, " Nothing for now." Now was already there, so let's go to work." Then you create a different culture.
In the innovation we installed the hall of failures instead of the hall of fame. We initiated funerals for projects that failed. I remember one project where we made a coating for picture frames and the coating is letting all the light through the glass and therefore you have much better view, no reflection of the picture frame. It made the glass much too expensive. Only museum was buying it. So there was nobody interested in it. So after spending so many millions we buried the project at our funerals with some music and a coffin. We put the project description in and said that was it.
We always invite people, and there was a guy there who said, " So why are you burying this project while we spent so many millions?" There's a brilliant innovation but no market. And he said, " And if you apply those coatings on solar panels, do all the photons then go through and do you get a higher yield?" And we were looking there. Yeah, I think so because that's what's happening. All the photons go through. So what is the yield improvement? And we said, " We have no clue." And why not? We never thought about it. And we said, " We never tested it."
And we stopped the funeral, start testing it, and built a great business out of an anti- effective coating for solar panels. So a different culture, different setting to create serendipity, to create innovations, that was critical for the company. There are numerous of those kind of examples in the company and we benefited from it.
00:20:10
Nanaz Mohtashami: Love that story. Thank you Feike.
00:20:14
Clarke Murphy: We'll be right back with Feike, but first let's hear from Sarah Galloway, a managing director in our London office. She'll tell us how a CEO's commitment to sustainability is not just good for the planet, but it's equally good for the bottom line.
00:20:27
Sarah Galloway: What is your organization's commitment to sustainable business practices? Have you articulated it? How are you measuring it? Is it truly a priority? Sustainable leadership starts at the top, so sustainability goals will succeed or fail based on leadership's commitment to them or lack thereof. CEOs and chief sustainability officers must not only set these goals for their organizations, they must also demonstrate ongoing personal dedication to achieving them. In our report, How CEO Commitment Affects Sustainability Integration, we explore the critical role of executive leadership, how to frame sustainability through a value creation lens, and how to hold executives accountable through metrics. To learn more, go to ra. com/ insights or click the link to the report in the show notes. Thank you so much.
00:21:18
Clarke Murphy: Now back to our conversation with Feike.
00:21:20
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, the show is called Redefiners, and one of the things that we do with all our guests is ask them about their redefining moment, so their moment where everything changed for them and they were able to redefine their mission. What was it for you?
00:21:37
Feike Sijbesma: The biggest acquisition that DSM ever did, and it turned out well but I found it very difficult, was the acquisition of Russian Nutrition. But I found the decision redefining. I was so scared because it could have gone wrong. But if I talk about the redefining, which also redefined my life, there were many moments. But one moment, we started to work as the biggest nutrition company in the world with the World Food Program and became the biggest contributor to them. And at a certain amount, we were in the south of Bangladesh at a village which was cut off from food help because the world was in a crisis and needed their own money. Literally that village hold your hunger for the following two years and then we might be back. This is literally what's happening from time to time in the world with food when we feel a crisis. I found it so strange to understand how the world works, and I was there showing how DSM could be of help, and at the certain moment a mother handed over a youngest child to me and before I know I opened up my arms and standing there with her child to my arms. And the translator toward food program said, " She's saying take it," and I said, " No, no, no, I cannot take her child. Take it." And she said, " You know, what do I know about this?" And then the mother started crying and she said, " You know that if you come back in two years I don't have six children anymore. You know it. I know it. The world knows it. Take my youngest child. Then she has a life." And everything was going to my mind that I thought she's right. She will not have six children anymore. She is right. She knows, I know, the world knows. She is right. If I maybe take her child then maybe that child will have a living, but it's impossible that I do that. That's legally impossible. It's morally impossible. I shouldn't do it, but I found it very hard and very difficult. So I was standing there, ask her to open and to take the child back. She closed her arms crying, crying, and at the certain moment I said to her, and being translated, " Please, please literally open your arms in a metaphoric way and in a physical way, open up your arms for your youngest child. I also don't know how long she will live, but she needs you as a mother and not me." And at the certain moment she opened up her arms, I give baby back, and the two words " you know" always stayed with me. And leading a business with purpose, doing something for the world, it's true. We know where the world is and we find it sometimes difficult to address it and to help, et cetera. But leaders of companies need not to say it's difficult, but need to find the ways in which we can help, and that has been redefining for me and motivating me.
00:24:45
Nanaz Mohtashami: You are so passionate about global inequality, and as the IMF states 10% of the population own about 80% of global wealth.
00:24:55
Feike Sijbesma: Correct.
00:24:55
Nanaz Mohtashami: In your opinion, what is the best way forward when it comes to redistributing the world's resources in a more fair and equal way?
00:25:05
Feike Sijbesma: Well, the economy ever started by barter trade. One was better in growing crops, the other in catching buffalo. And as we said, if we specialize, you on this, I on that, and exchange, at the end of the day the world is better off. And later on, we didn't exchange goods anymore, but we use gold as a trading mechanism, and later on money, and later on nowadays... Because 8% of the money physically exists, the rest is written on a computer and everybody believes it's there. That's good news, trust system in the financial system.
But if you go further on the specialization of competencies, and we did that in an extensive way globally, it's called globalization, and we made use of each other's competencies. That's good. Many countries came out of poverty due to that, but not all countries and not all people in all countries, and I think we should make globalization, we should make trade, we should make our economic system much more inclusive for all.
It is good to our system, it has many advantageous, this and this, but to be honest it's not inclusive enough, and that won't hold. The billion richest people in the world are consuming about 45% of global resources. If India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Africa, et cetera, will further develop they will claim their part of it, and rightly so. So we need to find a different way of distributing our wealth, distributing our economy that all benefit from that.
I believe that technology and innovation can be of help here. The sharing of it can also be of help here. The different economic systems here and there can help. Understanding that money is a means and not goal in itself... If your company is not contributed to a better world, why should the world want to have your company in the world? Think about it. So thinking about purpose of companies, think about what you can do, those kind of system changes is what we need.
00:27:11
Clarke Murphy: You've said many times you don't want to live in a world dominated by men. Recently one of our partners published a book called To the Top about women in corporate leadership. The facts are 70% of high school valedictorians, that's the top student in the class in America, are women, yet only 9% of the largest 100 companies in the S& P 500 Index are led by women. What the hell are we going to do to fix this, because whatever's happening isn't working?
00:27:36
Feike Sijbesma: I've been a strong promoter of inclusion and diversity, and as I experienced, I always say to be with a group of men, same age, same university, reading same newspapers, preferably from the same political party, that is the party of reconfirmation, the party of recognition. It tastes delicious. It doesn't bring you further, it doesn't help, but it tastes delicious of the whole day reconfirming each other. And you should not only to use that, but enjoy the taste of the surprise of having other people in your group, and that has to do with bias, it has to do with inclusion, who say, " Oh, are we all saying this? I think it should be different."
I was always fascinating and it is an old story in the meantime of Lehman Brothers, or Lehman brothers and sisters as it should have been called, but the interviews you saw of many people of Lehman Brothers, they knew they were running off a cliff. And there was nobody who said, " Hey guys, hold here. Stop. First a context question. What are we doing?" And here you see the danger of having a monoculture and I have experienced the benefit of the party of the surprise instead of the party of the recognition.
00:28:57
Clarke Murphy: Love it. Love it. Try new tastes. You're on the board of Phillips Unilever, World Economic Forum, Dutch Central Bank. How do you think about the boards you join and the right level of influence, but yet you're a governor, not the chief executive, you're not the operator. How do you think about board seats and the role of the governor in terms of these topics?
00:29:17
Feike Sijbesma: As a board member, even not when you're chair... As a chair you have a little bit more influence, but as a board member you cannot run, you cannot dictate, you cannot determine the executive leadership should do that. But what you can do is have an influence. What you can do is ask questions. What you can do is expressing your own values. What you can do is discussing the legacy of your CEO, et cetera. And I think it should also start that the board itself have a knowledge and an understanding, including the executive management, do you know what the issues are with climate change? Do you know the difference approaches? Do you know the difference between scope one, scope two, scope three? Do you know how to do it with carbon pricing also globally? These kind of discussions, these kind of questions you should have, you must have as a board with your executive management and you can help them.
And of course things which I already mentioned will come back. But what about the shelters? Yeah, but what about the financial performance? Yeah, but what about this and that? And it's all correct questions, but we can address those questions. It's not that they're only working against us. We need to reconcile the different interests, and if you do it in a clever way you can make out of sustainability your income streams also, and that's the only way to make sustainability really sustainable. That is what I think you can do as important.
00:30:50
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, this has been such a fascinating conversation. Clarke and I can keep posing questions and you'll have wonderful answers. But we're conscious of your time, and what we like to do is end each podcast with some rapid fire questions. So this is where we're going to give you five questions and we ask you to reply as quickly as you possibly can. Are you ready Feike?
00:31:12
Feike Sijbesma: Oh, gosh.
00:31:13
Nanaz Mohtashami: You'll like it. So question number one, what would be the title of your autobiography?
00:31:21
Feike Sijbesma: Doing Well by Doing Good.
00:31:23
Nanaz Mohtashami: Nice.
00:31:24
Feike Sijbesma: You know you cannot be successful living in a world that fails.
00:31:30
Clarke Murphy: I like that. Which world leader, dead or alive, inspires you the most?
00:31:35
Feike Sijbesma: Charles Darwin. He's not a corporate leader, but he inspired me a lot.
00:31:40
Nanaz Mohtashami: What is something that you do or at least try to do every day?
00:31:46
Feike Sijbesma: I'm a people's person. I try to interact with people, to listen to people. And I would like to have at least two things every day, a new insight, a new idea, a new whatever, and some fun and laughter.
00:32:01
Clarke Murphy: What do you do to unwind, to relax?
00:32:04
Feike Sijbesma: Mostly walk, make a walk which my wife, because then you have no phone, there's nothing. You're just an outside in nature and you are almost forcing your brain to unwind.
00:32:17
Nanaz Mohtashami: If you were to compete in an Olympic sport, what would it be?
00:32:20
Feike Sijbesma: Oh. Gosh, Nanaz. I think that I will fail in almost all of them. The only sports I use now, I don't know when it's Olympic maybe, this is golf, but I'm not good enough and I don't play it frequently. I am the best in the stadium watching the game and yelling.
00:32:42
Nanaz Mohtashami: Oh, I love it.
00:32:43
Clarke Murphy: Feike, we can't thank you enough for being here, humorous, insightful, and a lot of learning for us, which I think reflects who you are. And if we think about who you are, you're persistent and you don't take no for an answer, but you combine these listening skills with intellect and with humor, which, as I talk about, creates followership, and you certainly have. Your advice to your two boys I think is advice for all of us, which is unwrap that gift that is yourself, that is your mind and your heart, and find what fits you, and you will be great at what you do.
But doing something meaningful, whether it's going from coal, to chemicals, to nutrition, to life sciences, this concept as a leader that you changed the portfolio, you changed the company's products and services, but you had to change the culture and the people, particularly on the back of more innovation and marketing, to make it one of the more sustainable companies in your industry and in the world.
You said, I can do well by doing good. And as a leader, you said with increasing influence and impact comes responsibility to act on that impact as a leader, that maybe you anchor where you are and not moving is the least amount of risk, but in fact not moving is the greatest amount of risk. And therefore you said learning from Darwin, the fittest survive and the most adaptive survive, and so DSM goes from a coal company to a life sciences company. Adaptive brought success.
As a leader, back to this creating followership, if you say we're not going to talk about blame, we're going to say who's responsible, what went wrong, and what did we learn? And if you pose it that way you create creative actions out of learning from failure, not defensive actions of who to blame. Your concept of the hall of failures, the funerals for failed projects, but even you learned a lesson in terms of taking one of your applications and putting them on solar panels, in fact created something better from the release of the photons. You created serendipity. Halt the funeral. Go back to creativity in what we learned. The school of reconfirmation is not a school of new tastes, and you've decided you wanted new tastes, that you would say what do we have that challenges our confirmations, not reconfirming what we already know?
And finally, thinking about the role of a board member and making sure the knowledge and understanding is shared in the boardroom, to be good governors, to be sharing with the executive teams. And from that you can make revenue streams out of sustainability, not skepticism from sustainability. Thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. Thank you for being here.
00:35:28
Feike Sijbesma: Thank you. Give my regard for Russ Reynolds. I like the Redefined approach. Clarke, great meeting you. And Nanaz I know for a long time and great admiration for you. I appreciate it.
00:35:44
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, thank you so much for joining us. It has been so nice speaking with you.
00:35:48
Clarke Murphy: Nanaz, great conversation, but unfortunately this brings us to the end, not just of this episode, but of partnering together. So for our listeners, this is an Nanaz's last regular episode with us here on Redefiners. She's gone on to do even more for our clients and for the firm. Unfortunately, leaves me here happily with the listeners, but sadly without her. So success has bred success. We have had an amazing run together on Redefiners. She's going to help us behind the scenes, as she knows so many of our guests, as executive producer and will join us for our mid- season review. Thank you, Nanaz. Tears, goodbyes, virtual hugs.
00:36:28
Nanaz Mohtashami: Thank you, Clarke. The tears are certainly all on my side. I have had such a ride on Redefiners. Honestly, what a privilege it's been to work with you and to meet all our amazing guests with you. I am definitely going to miss our virtual studio, but I take great comfort in knowing that you will be in the capable hands of a wonderful new co- host.
00:36:51
Clarke Murphy: I'll see you in London. You come to New York and we will catch up. All the best, Nanaz.
00:36:55
Nanaz Mohtashami: Thank you, Clarke. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Redefines. For more dynamic insights from leaders from across industries and around the world listen to Redefiners wherever you get your podcasts.
00:37:08
Clarke Murphy: And to learn more or get in contact with us visit our website at russellreynolds. com. Find us on LinkedIn and follow us on Twitter at RA On Leadership. See you next time.
Feike Sijbesma: We define leadership as you need to have a vision, you need to be connected with your people in the world, you need to implement that vision by being decisive and then generate results and develop people, et cetera, et cetera, all the leadership characteristic. But for me the whole leadership journey starts with insight, insight in yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, insight in the people you work with, and insight in the world you operate in.
00:00:31
Nanaz Mohtashami: Welcome to Redefiners, a podcast designed for daring leaders who are changing what it means to lead in today's increasingly complex world. I'm Nanaz Mohtashami, a leadership advisor at Russell Reynolds Associates.
00:00:43
Clarke Murphy: And I am Clarke Murphy, the former chief executive and also a leadership advisor. Nanaz and I have spent our careers exploring what works and what's next in the realm of leadership.
00:00:52
Nanaz Mohtashami: In each episode we ask our guests deep and provocative questions about how they've challenge the norms and how they've redefined their organizations and ultimately themselves as leaders.
00:01:03
Clarke Murphy: Also, you can answer this one question, how are you redefining your leadership?
00:01:08
Nanaz Mohtashami: Perhaps the boldest question yet.
00:01:11
Clarke Murphy: Conversations that matter, inspiration first all whether you're kicking off your career or crafting your legacy. Thanks for joining us. Let's dive in.
00:01:22
Nanaz Mohtashami: Hi everyone, and welcome to Redefiners. Clark, I am so excited about today's episode, as we get to talk with a truly global leader who has shown an awful lot of empathy and concern for people around the world. Sustainability and innovation are at the core of his values. Now I've had the pleasure of working firsthand with our guest during what actually turned out to be really quite an intense and challenging nine months, and I have to say I was hugely impressed. They say that it's when the chips are down that you really get to see someone's true colors, how they act when they're under pressure. And honestly what I saw beneath all the achievements and the accolades is a man who's truly kind, funny, thoughtful, and really quite courageous.
00:02:07
Clarke Murphy: Well, I'm excited as well, Nanaz. He has so much to say about transformation and adversity and change both for himself and the company. But this episode is bittersweet. Nanaz, my co- host, my good friend, and other than our mid- year review this is our last recording together. Boo. 500, 000 downloads. We've had a great time. We spar well. We encourage each other. We've gone through COVID recordings and kids and children and dogs in the background and everything else, and a little bit of Persian sophistication to raise the bar. You are an unmatched partner, and all I can say is I'm going to miss you a lot, and so will all of our listeners.
00:02:46
Nanaz Mohtashami: Clark, you are too kind. Thank you. I have goosebumps as I hear your very kind, thoughtful words. Look, I am definitely going to miss co- hosting with you and meeting our amazing guests.
00:02:58
Clarke Murphy: There we go. So listeners, she told me it wasn't about me, it's all about her.
00:03:04
Nanaz Mohtashami: Better believe it. You better believe it. It's not you. It's not you, Clark. For sure it's not you this time.
00:03:11
Clarke Murphy: Many times have we heard that in our lives and you're like, " Sure." Okay. No, we're not ready for goodbyes yet because we have a great, great guest to introduce and his name is Feike Sijbesma. Until recently Feike was the CEO at Royal DSM, where he transformed the company from bulk chemicals to being a leader in nutrition, health and bio- sciences, not your average transformation. He's currently DSM's honoree chair and also a board member of the World Economic Forum.
Even more impressively, he was awarded the United Nations 2010 Humanitarian of the Year Award, and since then he's been a constant proponent of global equity, equality, and a proven transformative leader. Feike, we're so excited to have you here to learn from you and to talk a bit. Welcome to Redefiners.
00:04:01
Feike Sijbesma: Thank you. Thank you, Nanaz and Clarke.
00:04:01
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, if we can we'd love to start with the early years. Take us back. You've been kind in sharing with me your story of some of the childhood struggles that you've had, which I think some people may not believe, given everything that you've achieved. Why was school so difficult when you clearly have the ability to succeed and more?
00:04:21
Feike Sijbesma: Oh gosh, where did you got that from, Nanaz? I was not extremely successful at elementary school. I needed to change halfway elementary school because I think people didn't have a word for that at that moment, but I think I was dyslectic, well, most likely. I'm still. So I needed to move school. That was not easy. My parents didn't find that very promising, oldest of four kids. I did the six years of the high school, but every year just on. So after that I wanted to go to university. My wish was to do medical molecular biology. The school said, well, it is a miracle you finished the school, having done your exam to go to university, but molecular biology will be too complicated for you. And my father, who has been very influential, said, " Well, if you want do it. I believe in you. I always did. So far you got all negative advices and showed to contrary, so please do." I did it, and in the third year of my study I got a prize. Being the best student in the Netherlands you get a sum of money and an award. The sum of money as a student was the most important and I thought, hey, I'm not that stupid. That's good, maybe the first moment that I thought maybe I can do something and mean something, and from there I developed further. And then I studied molecular medical biology and later on I did my MBA.
00:05:54
Nanaz Mohtashami: And did you have an idea then in that first sort of success and moment of confidence, an idea or an aspiration of what you wanted to go on to do?
00:06:03
Feike Sijbesma: Yes. I studied biology, biotechnology, and I studied business administration, so I thought I wanted to combine both. I didn't want to go for my PhD. I didn't want to go to research. I wanted to go to business. So I told all my friends I will work for a company with an unpronounceable name in English, which was the biggest biotech company in the Netherlands at that moment in time. It was so logical with my studies that I should enter there, so I told all my friends, that will be my career.
So I sent a letter to them and in a couple of weeks, two weeks, I got the letter back, " Thanks, but there is no position for somebody with your background. We keep it in file if applicable and we might ever come back on that or not." So that was again a disappointment, because I look stupid for my friends because I told them already I would work there.
So I called the company and I said, "There is a mistake here because with my background I'm very useful for your company, so please allow me." They said " No". I said, " Okay, who is your boss?" " Who is my boss?" Yeah, you work for HR. Who is your boss? Can I speak with him or her?" She said, " No, but I will tell him."
The boss called two days later, said, " There's no place for you." I said, " Always. If you want always. Give me 10 minutes of your time next week." He said, " Well, I do that. You can enter 10 minutes before 2: 00 and at 2:00 you are gone." And I entered there and I stayed for half an hour, an hour. And he said, " Well, maybe we should hire you." So then I had a lot of other interviews, and at the end they hired me and the rest is history.
I had a strong ambition that I needed to show, but that maybe also came from my younger years where people said, well, you will not make it most likely, maybe not smart enough. And in the study I learned the contrary of that, so I felt let me prove. So I was ambitious, if I need to be honest.
But also I thought let's explore. And by the way, that's also a message I give to my children when they ask, " Daddy, what do you expect from us and where do we end up?" Of course I found it dangerous with two boys having the so- called successful father, being the CEO and expectations. But I always say, " Hey guys, you've got your body and your mind only once in your life. Find out what is in there, the unwrapped gift that you are yourself, your mind, your body, your heart. Find out who you are with your strengths, your weaknesses, your passions, and try to develop something which you think fits with you." And I have been exploring that also in my career.
00:08:51
Clarke Murphy: It's an amazing story of persistence, that's for sure. I do have to share that I have from 30 years ago the bank that I wanted to work for in New York turned me down. Well, I didn't know, and I kept calling and calling and calling and they knew, the HR department knew they had already turned me down. And eventually somebody said, " My God, this guy won't leave us alone. He seems incredibly polite. We might as well bring them in." To make a long story short, I had a letter of rejection for employment and then five weeks later I have an offer of employment, and they're framed up in my bedroom, so I relate to persistence even when we may not know where it's going.
But can you tell us, Feike, DSM, can you explain the company, and then of course part of what it's transformation is? It stands for Dutch State Mines, but it became something incredibly different over time, and certainly while you were one of the leaders and then the chief executive. Can you explain to our listeners DSM?
00:09:43
Feike Sijbesma: A few things. Later on Gist-brocades was acquired by DSM, and that's the way I came into DSM. DSM was founded in 1902, and DSM started indeed as Dutch State Mines, coal mining company owned by the Dutch government in the south of the Netherlands. And at this moment it's not Dutch anymore, it's all over the world. It's not owned by the state anymore. They're gone for decades and we have no mines anymore. But we kept the three letters, DSM. Nowadays the younger generation of DSM said it stands for doing something meaningful. And it's not my invention, but theirs, and I like it. We changed the company... The generation before me changed the coal mining operations and closed it down and changed the company to build chemical company, very successful polyethylene polypropylene, all kinds of bulk chemicals. And in my tenure of 14 years at the helm we changed it further, from a biochemical company into science- based company, mainly in life sciences and nutrition, the biggest in the world in health, in biomedical and all of that stuff, and kinds of sustainable living, if you want to call it like that. So I changed the company quite drastically, divested many parts, acquired new parts, changed, increased the innovation budgets tremendously, moved from purely cost leadership to marketing and R&D and innovation, so a lot of changes in the company, because we didn't change only the portfolio, but we changed therefore also the cultural way to operate. We have in that period made it to the most sustainable company in our industry, won all prizes on that, which I found important, but also generated a lot of shareholders value, 450% over those years. So I wanted to prove also that doing well financially, economically by doing good for the world can go hand in hand together. Although there was a lot of skeptic reactions at that moment in time, but when I handed it over to my successes, people say, oh, you are right. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, doing well, doing good. Even if I fast forward another 15 years, those two things have to go, will go, must go hand in hand together, otherwise you lose your customers, you lose society, you lose your employees, et cetera.
00:12:14
Nanaz Mohtashami: Can I jump in on that? So you led this incredible change, not just for the company, but actually as you say, I think the change that you've led on the sustainability front is really quite revolutionary. How did you know what to do? With all due respect, you had only ever worked at DSM. Where did the inspiration come from? Why did you do it? What was driving you?
00:12:38
Feike Sijbesma: I was making in Gist-brocades - DSM fast career. And in the very beginning I liked that. Hey, I make more salary, I'm doing well. And then I start realizing it is nice that you make career, but with your career you increase your influence, your impact, maybe your power even. And all of that gives responsibility, and what are you doing with the responsibility? And this is for me the most important characteristic of leadership. We define leadership as you need to have a vision, you need to be connected with your people in the world, you need to implement that vision by being decisive and then generate results and develop people, et cetera, et cetera, all the leadership characteristics. But for me it starts... The whole leadership journey starts not with that. It starts with insight, insight in yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, insight in the people you work with, and insight in the world you operate in. And insight you only get when you listen, when you read, when you observe, when you travel. The difficult or the sad thing is when people develop to leaders they are more and more on stage telling, teaching, they are more and more making the stories instead of listening to stories, and therefore have a risk not to develop new insights, and I found that important. The other thing, Nanaz, is I'm a biologist. I grew up with Darwin and he is my great hero. Obviously I never met him, but he is my great hero. And what he wrote in maybe one of the most important books of the world, The Origin of Species, where we all come from, to my own surprise, and Darwin was surprised, it is not the biggest, it's not the fastest, but it is the fittest who will survive, and fittest not the one who when most of the gym, but the one who is the most adaptive. And I felt always as a company you need to be adaptive. Not only species, but also people and organizations need to be adaptive. And nothing feels more comfortable than putting your anchors and stay on the place where you are. That feels comfortable, but is not good, and not moving feels not taking risks, but at the long run it is also a big, big risk often. So therefore, inspired by Darwin, I said we should move, we should change, we should dare to change. So the deeper insights I got from speaking, learning from people around me, and the guts to do that I got from Darwin.
00:15:18
Clarke Murphy: I love that. I recently published a book with the firm on sustainable leaders and we built out a framework of these hundred leaders and what they had in common as CEOs, which was innovation and inclusion, inclusion around listening and leading, complexity and long- term thinking. But the sidebar to the whole book for me and for those of us involved was like this moment right now, those leaders when we interviewed them were asked these same similar questions around sustainability and success, which can go hand in hand as you say, was that just in the interviews was the incredible listening, that I was the only person in the world in that moment with that leader.
And I think outside of this scientific framework we developed was this realization that the most successful sustainable leaders are incredible listeners. Not just their ears, but in fact the interplay of listening and talking and listening and talking, as you say it's developing insights that then when they made a decision, because of listening they were pulling so many people with them. And I believe fundamentally that the hierarchical leader moment is over and that great leaders are in fact creating great followers. And you said just a minute ago we needed a different operating model, different people and different culture. So how did you bring the people along, particularly as you changed some of the people?
00:16:42
Feike Sijbesma: By setting the example, by asking questions to your people. If you want people to do A you can say, " You should do A." You can also say, " What would hold you back of doing A?" And if you say it in the first way, most likely you mobilize defense mechanisms with people because they feel attacked. If you ask it in a second way, what hold you back doing that, you trigger creativity with people in their mind.
Or if something went wrong, the people came to me and said we did it wrong here or whatever and we lost a lot of money, then I always ask, " Who is responsible for that? Who is accountable?" I remember one occasion where something went wrong with an acquisition and at the end they needed to find out for me who was responsible. And they came back and said, the tax department.
No, no, no, no. The tax department is walls and paper and chairs and tables. It doesn't speak. There's somebody. And then at the end I got an email, the whole group got an email of the second person in tax department that said, " I was mainly responsible for it, and this is what I did wrong, and this is what I didn't see, and this is what I learned from that, and we will do better."
And I said, " Would you all come next day at 9: 00 in my office?" They were all there. And I said to the person, " Thank you. Now we know what went wrong. We know who was accountable. You shared it with other people. We learned from it. Great." The meeting was over 30 seconds and the rest looked like, and now? I said, " Nothing for now." Now was already there, so let's go to work." Then you create a different culture.
In the innovation we installed the hall of failures instead of the hall of fame. We initiated funerals for projects that failed. I remember one project where we made a coating for picture frames and the coating is letting all the light through the glass and therefore you have much better view, no reflection of the picture frame. It made the glass much too expensive. Only museum was buying it. So there was nobody interested in it. So after spending so many millions we buried the project at our funerals with some music and a coffin. We put the project description in and said that was it.
We always invite people, and there was a guy there who said, " So why are you burying this project while we spent so many millions?" There's a brilliant innovation but no market. And he said, " And if you apply those coatings on solar panels, do all the photons then go through and do you get a higher yield?" And we were looking there. Yeah, I think so because that's what's happening. All the photons go through. So what is the yield improvement? And we said, " We have no clue." And why not? We never thought about it. And we said, " We never tested it."
And we stopped the funeral, start testing it, and built a great business out of an anti- effective coating for solar panels. So a different culture, different setting to create serendipity, to create innovations, that was critical for the company. There are numerous of those kind of examples in the company and we benefited from it.
00:20:10
Nanaz Mohtashami: Love that story. Thank you Feike.
00:20:14
Clarke Murphy: We'll be right back with Feike, but first let's hear from Sarah Galloway, a managing director in our London office. She'll tell us how a CEO's commitment to sustainability is not just good for the planet, but it's equally good for the bottom line.
00:20:27
Sarah Galloway: What is your organization's commitment to sustainable business practices? Have you articulated it? How are you measuring it? Is it truly a priority? Sustainable leadership starts at the top, so sustainability goals will succeed or fail based on leadership's commitment to them or lack thereof. CEOs and chief sustainability officers must not only set these goals for their organizations, they must also demonstrate ongoing personal dedication to achieving them. In our report, How CEO Commitment Affects Sustainability Integration, we explore the critical role of executive leadership, how to frame sustainability through a value creation lens, and how to hold executives accountable through metrics. To learn more, go to ra. com/ insights or click the link to the report in the show notes. Thank you so much.
00:21:18
Clarke Murphy: Now back to our conversation with Feike.
00:21:20
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, the show is called Redefiners, and one of the things that we do with all our guests is ask them about their redefining moment, so their moment where everything changed for them and they were able to redefine their mission. What was it for you?
00:21:37
Feike Sijbesma: The biggest acquisition that DSM ever did, and it turned out well but I found it very difficult, was the acquisition of Russian Nutrition. But I found the decision redefining. I was so scared because it could have gone wrong. But if I talk about the redefining, which also redefined my life, there were many moments. But one moment, we started to work as the biggest nutrition company in the world with the World Food Program and became the biggest contributor to them. And at a certain amount, we were in the south of Bangladesh at a village which was cut off from food help because the world was in a crisis and needed their own money. Literally that village hold your hunger for the following two years and then we might be back. This is literally what's happening from time to time in the world with food when we feel a crisis. I found it so strange to understand how the world works, and I was there showing how DSM could be of help, and at the certain moment a mother handed over a youngest child to me and before I know I opened up my arms and standing there with her child to my arms. And the translator toward food program said, " She's saying take it," and I said, " No, no, no, I cannot take her child. Take it." And she said, " You know, what do I know about this?" And then the mother started crying and she said, " You know that if you come back in two years I don't have six children anymore. You know it. I know it. The world knows it. Take my youngest child. Then she has a life." And everything was going to my mind that I thought she's right. She will not have six children anymore. She is right. She knows, I know, the world knows. She is right. If I maybe take her child then maybe that child will have a living, but it's impossible that I do that. That's legally impossible. It's morally impossible. I shouldn't do it, but I found it very hard and very difficult. So I was standing there, ask her to open and to take the child back. She closed her arms crying, crying, and at the certain moment I said to her, and being translated, " Please, please literally open your arms in a metaphoric way and in a physical way, open up your arms for your youngest child. I also don't know how long she will live, but she needs you as a mother and not me." And at the certain moment she opened up her arms, I give baby back, and the two words " you know" always stayed with me. And leading a business with purpose, doing something for the world, it's true. We know where the world is and we find it sometimes difficult to address it and to help, et cetera. But leaders of companies need not to say it's difficult, but need to find the ways in which we can help, and that has been redefining for me and motivating me.
00:24:45
Nanaz Mohtashami: You are so passionate about global inequality, and as the IMF states 10% of the population own about 80% of global wealth.
00:24:55
Feike Sijbesma: Correct.
00:24:55
Nanaz Mohtashami: In your opinion, what is the best way forward when it comes to redistributing the world's resources in a more fair and equal way?
00:25:05
Feike Sijbesma: Well, the economy ever started by barter trade. One was better in growing crops, the other in catching buffalo. And as we said, if we specialize, you on this, I on that, and exchange, at the end of the day the world is better off. And later on, we didn't exchange goods anymore, but we use gold as a trading mechanism, and later on money, and later on nowadays... Because 8% of the money physically exists, the rest is written on a computer and everybody believes it's there. That's good news, trust system in the financial system.
But if you go further on the specialization of competencies, and we did that in an extensive way globally, it's called globalization, and we made use of each other's competencies. That's good. Many countries came out of poverty due to that, but not all countries and not all people in all countries, and I think we should make globalization, we should make trade, we should make our economic system much more inclusive for all.
It is good to our system, it has many advantageous, this and this, but to be honest it's not inclusive enough, and that won't hold. The billion richest people in the world are consuming about 45% of global resources. If India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Africa, et cetera, will further develop they will claim their part of it, and rightly so. So we need to find a different way of distributing our wealth, distributing our economy that all benefit from that.
I believe that technology and innovation can be of help here. The sharing of it can also be of help here. The different economic systems here and there can help. Understanding that money is a means and not goal in itself... If your company is not contributed to a better world, why should the world want to have your company in the world? Think about it. So thinking about purpose of companies, think about what you can do, those kind of system changes is what we need.
00:27:11
Clarke Murphy: You've said many times you don't want to live in a world dominated by men. Recently one of our partners published a book called To the Top about women in corporate leadership. The facts are 70% of high school valedictorians, that's the top student in the class in America, are women, yet only 9% of the largest 100 companies in the S& P 500 Index are led by women. What the hell are we going to do to fix this, because whatever's happening isn't working?
00:27:36
Feike Sijbesma: I've been a strong promoter of inclusion and diversity, and as I experienced, I always say to be with a group of men, same age, same university, reading same newspapers, preferably from the same political party, that is the party of reconfirmation, the party of recognition. It tastes delicious. It doesn't bring you further, it doesn't help, but it tastes delicious of the whole day reconfirming each other. And you should not only to use that, but enjoy the taste of the surprise of having other people in your group, and that has to do with bias, it has to do with inclusion, who say, " Oh, are we all saying this? I think it should be different."
I was always fascinating and it is an old story in the meantime of Lehman Brothers, or Lehman brothers and sisters as it should have been called, but the interviews you saw of many people of Lehman Brothers, they knew they were running off a cliff. And there was nobody who said, " Hey guys, hold here. Stop. First a context question. What are we doing?" And here you see the danger of having a monoculture and I have experienced the benefit of the party of the surprise instead of the party of the recognition.
00:28:57
Clarke Murphy: Love it. Love it. Try new tastes. You're on the board of Phillips Unilever, World Economic Forum, Dutch Central Bank. How do you think about the boards you join and the right level of influence, but yet you're a governor, not the chief executive, you're not the operator. How do you think about board seats and the role of the governor in terms of these topics?
00:29:17
Feike Sijbesma: As a board member, even not when you're chair... As a chair you have a little bit more influence, but as a board member you cannot run, you cannot dictate, you cannot determine the executive leadership should do that. But what you can do is have an influence. What you can do is ask questions. What you can do is expressing your own values. What you can do is discussing the legacy of your CEO, et cetera. And I think it should also start that the board itself have a knowledge and an understanding, including the executive management, do you know what the issues are with climate change? Do you know the difference approaches? Do you know the difference between scope one, scope two, scope three? Do you know how to do it with carbon pricing also globally? These kind of discussions, these kind of questions you should have, you must have as a board with your executive management and you can help them.
And of course things which I already mentioned will come back. But what about the shelters? Yeah, but what about the financial performance? Yeah, but what about this and that? And it's all correct questions, but we can address those questions. It's not that they're only working against us. We need to reconcile the different interests, and if you do it in a clever way you can make out of sustainability your income streams also, and that's the only way to make sustainability really sustainable. That is what I think you can do as important.
00:30:50
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, this has been such a fascinating conversation. Clarke and I can keep posing questions and you'll have wonderful answers. But we're conscious of your time, and what we like to do is end each podcast with some rapid fire questions. So this is where we're going to give you five questions and we ask you to reply as quickly as you possibly can. Are you ready Feike?
00:31:12
Feike Sijbesma: Oh, gosh.
00:31:13
Nanaz Mohtashami: You'll like it. So question number one, what would be the title of your autobiography?
00:31:21
Feike Sijbesma: Doing Well by Doing Good.
00:31:23
Nanaz Mohtashami: Nice.
00:31:24
Feike Sijbesma: You know you cannot be successful living in a world that fails.
00:31:30
Clarke Murphy: I like that. Which world leader, dead or alive, inspires you the most?
00:31:35
Feike Sijbesma: Charles Darwin. He's not a corporate leader, but he inspired me a lot.
00:31:40
Nanaz Mohtashami: What is something that you do or at least try to do every day?
00:31:46
Feike Sijbesma: I'm a people's person. I try to interact with people, to listen to people. And I would like to have at least two things every day, a new insight, a new idea, a new whatever, and some fun and laughter.
00:32:01
Clarke Murphy: What do you do to unwind, to relax?
00:32:04
Feike Sijbesma: Mostly walk, make a walk which my wife, because then you have no phone, there's nothing. You're just an outside in nature and you are almost forcing your brain to unwind.
00:32:17
Nanaz Mohtashami: If you were to compete in an Olympic sport, what would it be?
00:32:20
Feike Sijbesma: Oh. Gosh, Nanaz. I think that I will fail in almost all of them. The only sports I use now, I don't know when it's Olympic maybe, this is golf, but I'm not good enough and I don't play it frequently. I am the best in the stadium watching the game and yelling.
00:32:42
Nanaz Mohtashami: Oh, I love it.
00:32:43
Clarke Murphy: Feike, we can't thank you enough for being here, humorous, insightful, and a lot of learning for us, which I think reflects who you are. And if we think about who you are, you're persistent and you don't take no for an answer, but you combine these listening skills with intellect and with humor, which, as I talk about, creates followership, and you certainly have. Your advice to your two boys I think is advice for all of us, which is unwrap that gift that is yourself, that is your mind and your heart, and find what fits you, and you will be great at what you do.
But doing something meaningful, whether it's going from coal, to chemicals, to nutrition, to life sciences, this concept as a leader that you changed the portfolio, you changed the company's products and services, but you had to change the culture and the people, particularly on the back of more innovation and marketing, to make it one of the more sustainable companies in your industry and in the world.
You said, I can do well by doing good. And as a leader, you said with increasing influence and impact comes responsibility to act on that impact as a leader, that maybe you anchor where you are and not moving is the least amount of risk, but in fact not moving is the greatest amount of risk. And therefore you said learning from Darwin, the fittest survive and the most adaptive survive, and so DSM goes from a coal company to a life sciences company. Adaptive brought success.
As a leader, back to this creating followership, if you say we're not going to talk about blame, we're going to say who's responsible, what went wrong, and what did we learn? And if you pose it that way you create creative actions out of learning from failure, not defensive actions of who to blame. Your concept of the hall of failures, the funerals for failed projects, but even you learned a lesson in terms of taking one of your applications and putting them on solar panels, in fact created something better from the release of the photons. You created serendipity. Halt the funeral. Go back to creativity in what we learned. The school of reconfirmation is not a school of new tastes, and you've decided you wanted new tastes, that you would say what do we have that challenges our confirmations, not reconfirming what we already know?
And finally, thinking about the role of a board member and making sure the knowledge and understanding is shared in the boardroom, to be good governors, to be sharing with the executive teams. And from that you can make revenue streams out of sustainability, not skepticism from sustainability. Thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. Thank you for being here.
00:35:28
Feike Sijbesma: Thank you. Give my regard for Russ Reynolds. I like the Redefined approach. Clarke, great meeting you. And Nanaz I know for a long time and great admiration for you. I appreciate it.
00:35:44
Nanaz Mohtashami: Feike, thank you so much for joining us. It has been so nice speaking with you.
00:35:48
Clarke Murphy: Nanaz, great conversation, but unfortunately this brings us to the end, not just of this episode, but of partnering together. So for our listeners, this is an Nanaz's last regular episode with us here on Redefiners. She's gone on to do even more for our clients and for the firm. Unfortunately, leaves me here happily with the listeners, but sadly without her. So success has bred success. We have had an amazing run together on Redefiners. She's going to help us behind the scenes, as she knows so many of our guests, as executive producer and will join us for our mid- season review. Thank you, Nanaz. Tears, goodbyes, virtual hugs.
00:36:28
Nanaz Mohtashami: Thank you, Clarke. The tears are certainly all on my side. I have had such a ride on Redefiners. Honestly, what a privilege it's been to work with you and to meet all our amazing guests with you. I am definitely going to miss our virtual studio, but I take great comfort in knowing that you will be in the capable hands of a wonderful new co- host.
00:36:51
Clarke Murphy: I'll see you in London. You come to New York and we will catch up. All the best, Nanaz.
00:36:55
Nanaz Mohtashami: Thank you, Clarke. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Redefines. For more dynamic insights from leaders from across industries and around the world listen to Redefiners wherever you get your podcasts.
00:37:08
Clarke Murphy: And to learn more or get in contact with us visit our website at russellreynolds. com. Find us on LinkedIn and follow us on Twitter at RA On Leadership. See you next time.
