#221 Pattern matching and accepting change in Python with Brett Cannon

WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.
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This is episode 221, I think, recorded, when is it? February 17th, 2021.
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I'm Brian Okken.
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I'm Michael Kennedy.
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And we also have Brett Cannon, yeah.
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I always talk over the third person. I'm not sure why.
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Well, you're always going like, is there going to be an introduction or should I just join the Brady Bunch theme?
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Let's just go in a circle and just introduce ourselves.
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Well, if we're going to do Brady Bunch, we've got to have more people so we can fill out, what is that, rows of three or whatever in the picture?
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I'm sure Anthony Shaw and Paul Everitt are available based on how often they show up here, so I'm sure they're waiting in the ways.
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That's right. We'll just swoop them in here for the right picture.
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Welcome, Brett. It's great to have you here.
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Lovely to be back.
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You know what, Brian, I'm impressed with Brett's microphone.
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He has mastered the work from home.
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Yeah, I love this. We're going to have to put a link in the show notes to this thing.
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Tell people about this.
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So, Brian and I both have good microphones.
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We have many different microphones we've tried, but yours has a visual aspect, which is unusual for audio.
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Yeah.
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So, it's a HyperX Quadcast S specifically, and it comes with RGB lighting because it's really a gamer mic.
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But, obviously, in pandemic times, I work from home.
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And my wife is also at home because of the pandemic.
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And we always had an issue of her wanting to come in and not knowing whether I was actually occupied actually in a meeting, because I'm in them a lot for work, or whether or not I was just sitting there with my headphones on listening to music or whatever, and she could totally just walk in.
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And so, the great thing about this microphone is if it has a touch sensitive top, and if you tap it, the LEDs turn off.
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And so, it acts as like an on-air light for the room.
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I mean, it's not that bright specifically, but if she opens the door, she can totally just look in and go, is the mic lit?
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And if the mic's not lit, she knows she's not going to be heard or be directly interrupting me, and I can just turn and answer any questions she has.
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And it's awesome.
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It works out great that way.
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That is so fantastic.
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The whole mic glows when it's on and active.
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Different colors.
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It's beautiful.
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I love it.
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Yeah, and you can even change which colors it uses.
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I can't remember if it's waterfall or not, but you can actually change how the color spectrum changes from side to side in terms of colors and whether it's top to bottom or not.
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It's very pretty.
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I think I once did Harry Potter color theme for a co-worker of mine who's a big Harry Potter fan for all the houses.
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And I've purposely not played with it and kept with the defaults because it's definitely one of those things I could totally nerd out on and play with the colors all day long.
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I tried Python colors once.
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The transitions didn't look quite as nice, but, you know.
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Yeah, no, it's good.
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I have the microphone that matches.
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I'm sorry, the mouse that matches it.
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Oh, nice.
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And it pulses.
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So, I didn't get it for the color, but it's the only one I could get that had color.
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I'm like, why is it of color?
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How do I turn this off?
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But no, it just has color.
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It's fine.
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But anyway, great mic.
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I think people should check that out if they have like weird work from home situations and people are interrupting.
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It's super cool.
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I love it.
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Definitely get a mic stand, though.
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The default stand is a little low.
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And I have found that getting a cheap, like $10, $15 stand.
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I got this from Amazon that pushes it off about seven inches, I think.
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I'm trying to do the American units.
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It pushes up about 15 centimeters.
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Perfect.
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It's a nice sweet spot in terms of distance while it's still not completely taking up your vision in the screen.
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Yeah, excellent.
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Excellent.
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Well, Brian, you want to kick us off here with our first topic?
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Yeah.
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Well, we've got – it's hard to keep up with Will McGugan.
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Sorry, Will.
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Will wrote Rich, which is a – I forget what he calls it.
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Basically, it's a CLI tool.
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But there's been a whole bunch of really cool things he's done recently, like really recently.
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So in December, he added Live View, which allows you to just – it continually updates whenever an event happens or something in that part of the screen, which is cool.
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He didn't write a blog post on that.
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But then in January, Tree View came out.
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And the Tree Views are lovely.
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You can do all sorts of stuff with the Tree View.
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And yeah, it's a nice thing to have in a CLI tool.
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And then what's really impressive to me, I think, was layouts.
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So this month, he released layouts.
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And it allows you to split the screen up.
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And his demo even shows it happening within a VS Code.
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Oh, yeah.
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Within the bottom.
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Yeah.
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Terminal part of VS Code.
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Yeah.
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Brett, you've heard of this, right?
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You've heard of this tool?
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How can I not?
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I'm a fan of the podcast.
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And Brian loves this tool.
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So I've heard about it multiple times.
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So I guess we've covered it before.
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But one of the reasons why I'm covering it again, there's a couple of reasons, is the layout's neat.
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And really, now I want to click on stuff and I want to do entry.
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And he sort of hinted at that, that he's kind of going towards a full TUI, which I had never heard of before.
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Text user interface.
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Yeah, TUIs.
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All right.
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Right on.
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That'd be cool.
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So I think that would be neat.
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And I'd like to encourage that.
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So the other thing that's going on with Rich is he's accepting sponsorships now.
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And it's kind of hidden in the demo window.
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But we're highlighting it on the show so more people can know about it.
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So on GitHub, he's doing sponsorships on GitHub.
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And I like how GitHub sponsorships work.
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It's kind of neat.
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So check it out.
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The other thing that I guess when I was playing with these layout things that I didn't really realize before is you can just say Python-mrich.
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And it shows a little demo of a whole bunch of stuff.
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And then some of the particular parts of it, you can demo them individually.
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Like for the layout, you can say Python-mrich.layout.
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And it'll show a demo.
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That's cool.
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The tree is also as a demo.
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And the live one, actually, I couldn't escape it.
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I had to kill my window.
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So the live one just continually updates some, like, I think it does.
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I don't know if it's actually going out to the internet.
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But it's doing some, like, conversions of monetary conversions.
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And it just kept updating.
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And it doesn't hit Control-C.
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So it's got a bear except somewhere they shouldn't have.
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I think it's very reliable.
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I mean, the only way to exit it is forced quit.
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So we're all...
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Kill Dash 9.
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Where's your friend?
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So, yeah.
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I'd love to have Rich continue with this and make it a full 2E.
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That would be fun.
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That would be very cool.
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Because the presentation is really nice here.
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I will also fully support Will making this a full-on thing.
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Because actually, a couple months ago, I did a slight dive on a weekend trying to find some TUI libraries.
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Because I have a personal project for work purposes that I've been trying to do a GUI for.
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And two years in a row, I've tried to do it during hackathon week at Microsoft.
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And I keep failing because I don't have enough time to dive into all the GUI libraries that go from, like, here's how to do Hello World.
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Here's the reference.
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And it's like, no, no.
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I need more steps there.
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Where's that middle ground?
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Come on.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And then I decided, oh, well, I totally could just do this in Curses.
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It's like, it's literally just to keep track of what I do every day.
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And it's just like, it's snippets from Google is where I picked up the habit of just literally just, oh, I did this today.
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That was out of ordinary.
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I did this today.
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That was out of ordinary.
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Just to kind of track the high level, not just meanings, but I actually did something different today.
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And it's like, oh, I could totally do this in the terminals.
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Like, suddenly pull up in Curses library.
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It's in the Snare library.
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And it's like, oh, yes, you need to know the size of your terminal window and all this other stuff.
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And, oh, how to move the cursor to this specific position.
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It's like, yeah, no, I still don't have time for this.
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So if we're trying to move this along and make input work, I mean, I would be totally down for giving it a shot.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, quite cool.
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And if people don't know, you kind of live an alter ego.
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You've got Brett Cannon Open Source Steering Council and also work closely with VS Code at Microsoft, right?
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So having the screenshot on the screen is right at home.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Just for people who don't know, I'm the dev manager for the Python extension for VS Code.
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That's how I pay for my open source habit, which includes being on the Python Steering Council and the core dev.
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Yeah, yeah, quite cool.
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So Gandalfor says, I've been using Prompt Toolkit for the Tui library for a while, but this rich seems a lot nicer if it actually accepted input, which I agree.
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It seems very cool.
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And I've heard some people using them together.
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I just don't know how to do that.
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So if somebody wants to write a tutorial on how to use both rich and Prompt Toolkit together, that'd be cool.
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Yeah, that would be cool, actually.
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All right.
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What I want to talk about is this article I ran across and some tools that I went to play with afterwards after reading it called 12 requests per second.
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Sounds amazing, right?
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So it's a realistic look at web frameworks and Python web frameworks.
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So if you look out there, you'll hear things like, oh, we're getting 100,000 requests per second on uvloop with a single thread.
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Or, you know, we've got Sanic doing 100,000 requests or even Jopronto up to 1.2 million requests per second, right?
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Which is amazing.
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And then a lot of these examples are doing like really not real type of work, right?
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They're just doing some little tiny thing like, oh, here, let's add two numbers and tell you how fast we can do that.
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So this article is more like, well, let's go through a real application and see what kind of performance you might expect.
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So I thought it'd be fun to talk about this because it gives some people some things to think about.
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You know, how can you compare your app to these types of quotes that people are getting and so on?
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And would it be better to choose something like Jopronto or AIoHTP or FastAPI or something like that over, say, Flask or Django,
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which don't have so much support for things like Async.
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So I thought this was fun to go through and just kind of look at it.
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They start out by profiling just sort of a Hello World app and they get, all right, well, Hello World's pretty good.
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If you run Flask on CPython, you get some amount here.
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Maybe it was 500 to 1,000.
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You run it on PyPy.
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They were able to get 3,000.
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You run it.
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And so that's just, you know, Flask run, right?
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Which is not really the way you should probably be doing things.
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You should be running on Gunicorn or uWSGI or something like that.
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So if they ran the same thing on Gunicorn, right, it's up to like 12,000.
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And you run it on, compare that against Sanic, you get, you know, Sanic was doing like 24,000 or something.
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So these comparisons I thought would be fun for people.
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You can go through, they've got a bunch of graphs that you can check out.
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But then they write one that actually talks to a database doing database-y things.
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And then let me get down to the numbers here, the bottom for that.
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And they're like, okay, well, with this one, now we're running at, you know, quite a bit lower request per second.
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And I think in the end they said for our real app, what we ended up with is a whopping like 12 requests per second.
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Yeah, here we go.
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Here's the graph I was looking for.
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Where like, this is Flask running the synchronous Postgres driver there.
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And that's all pretty interesting.
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I think, you know, even be able to answer the question, you know, well, what about me?
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What about my app?
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How would it do if I were to run these things against it?
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And we've talked about Locus before.
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Locus is a really fantastic way to write load testing and user interaction testing against websites,
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web APIs and so on.
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And it's all about Python.
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So what you do with this is you go through and you write some kind of class and you say, okay, here's a test,
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like a representation of what people might do to my website.
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They might log in.
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They might go view the episode page.
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If we were testing the Python Bytes site, they go check out the episode page.
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They might drill into an episode.
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They might do a search.
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And what you can do is you write simple little bits of Python to say, here's a function that does this action.
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Here's a function that does that action.
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Like, here's one that goes to the episode listing.
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And then you can actually, it's not shown in the example here, but you can say things like, well, you know, 10 out of 15 times, I want them to view an episode page.
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One out of the 10 times, I want them to do a search.
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And three out of the 10 times, I want them to actually go to the listing, right?
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So you can sort of break it up to what the normal look would be.
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Then you just run Locus and you get like this web UI where you enter some information.
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And then it just runs, if you want, even in a distributed way against your site and then, you know, pounds it until it gives up, basically.
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Brett, have you heard this tool?
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No, I actually haven't.
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I mean, you hear about different tools for different things, but this is pretty, looking at this example, it's pretty simple, which is pretty great.
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Yeah, the simplicity is really great.
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And then when you run it, you actually get a web view into it.
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Then the web UI lets you basically control and monitor the tests in real time.
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So anyway, coming back to some numbers off of that, I decided, well, if they're getting, you know, 12 to 80 requests per second, what does my stuff look like?
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Like, for example, I talk to Python training stuff.
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It's not using any of this async stuff.
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How is it doing?
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So it's Python 3, uWSGI, Pyramid, MongoDB on a $20 server.
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Would it get 12 requests per second?
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:15.400
I don't know.
00:13:15.400 --> 00:13:22.020
So I turned this thing loose and it'll do about 125 requests per second.
00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.880
I felt better than, that's better than 12.
00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:25.600
I felt pretty good.
00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:37.260
But one of the things that's cool about Locus is you can tell it, not just, I want you to use this partitioning, but also I would like you to have a distribution of how often the user actually does something.
00:13:37.260 --> 00:13:45.100
So you can say, well, this user is going to make between every 10 to 60 seconds, it's going to do one of these things among this mix.
00:13:45.100 --> 00:13:51.280
So instead of just pounding it, it's like, well, an average user doesn't just hit F5 or control command R as hard as they can.
00:13:51.280 --> 00:13:53.340
They move around and they pause, right?
00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:54.120
So you can pause that.
00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:59.900
So I don't know, maybe it's 10 to 20,000 realistic users I was able to sort of map out with this.
00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:03.760
Anyway, it was just a fun deep dive into like, well, what does performance look like?
00:14:03.760 --> 00:14:05.440
How important is async?
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.040
Some of the tools to do it.
00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:07.480
I don't know.
00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:12.500
If people are, if that's interesting, people definitely check out this 12 requests per second article here.
00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:14.780
I think you'll enjoy it.
00:14:14.780 --> 00:14:17.940
Then also check out Locus if you want to try to answer that question for yourself.
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:26.840
So I was curious how, when you're testing your site, did anybody else like experience downtime or something while you're being on it?
00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:28.320
Well, so that's the question, right?
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:34.980
Like with the Locus thing, you can start to see what the like real time, what the response times are and everything.
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:36.340
It never crashed.
00:14:36.340 --> 00:14:37.760
It just got a little bit slow.
00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:41.820
So I was, you know, I ran it locally and I'm like, well, what's it look like in production, right?
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:47.560
So I'm like, I really want to know what with all the way that everything's put together, what number will I get?
00:14:47.640 --> 00:14:49.140
So I'm like, I'm just going to turn it loose on it.
00:14:49.140 --> 00:14:52.660
And if it starts to overwhelm it, I'll just hit the stop button, you know, and it never died.
00:14:52.660 --> 00:14:56.180
It just got to where it took like three or 400 milliseconds to get back to me.
00:14:56.180 --> 00:14:56.860
So it was okay.
00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:57.820
Okay, good.
00:14:57.820 --> 00:14:58.200
Yeah.
00:14:58.200 --> 00:14:58.980
So pretty fun.
00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:00.300
Pretty fun example there.
00:15:00.300 --> 00:15:08.680
I think one other thing I appreciate about that blog post actually was they pointed out towards the end that at some point scaling is no longer a Python problem and it's an infrastructure problem.
00:15:08.680 --> 00:15:11.360
Like, oh, it's probably better to update your database and stuff.
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.000
And I've heard this from a lot of people too.
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:20.240
There's kind of a misnomer if you're not in the Python community that, oh, Python's so slow, it's going to be your bottleneck.
00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.620
And instead, I've heard it from a lot of people in the community that, oh, actually it's not.
00:15:23.620 --> 00:15:26.380
I can get it done, get my work done a third of a time.
00:15:26.380 --> 00:15:30.540
And then the two thirds of time it would have taken me to do it in, I don't know, Java, just choosing a language.
00:15:30.540 --> 00:15:32.500
I can optimize my infrastructure.
00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:33.280
And guess what?
00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:38.420
I end up with the same performance with more time to bug fix and test than I would have in the other platform.
00:15:38.420 --> 00:15:44.480
And the other thing is, is obviously there's, there is always throwing more hardware at the problem if you need to horizontally scale.
00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:52.040
But, and honestly, I think when I say this post also, I think from our correctly pointed out, not everyone needs a thousand requests a second.
00:15:52.040 --> 00:15:54.240
Most people don't.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.880
Even popular websites are not doing a thousand.
00:15:57.880 --> 00:15:59.460
I mean, that's a lot of requests.
00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:00.380
A thousand requests a second.
00:16:00.380 --> 00:16:00.600
That is a lot.
00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.340
Like most people measure in queries per minute, not per second.
00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:04.800
Right?
00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:05.020
Yeah.
00:16:05.060 --> 00:16:12.700
So like even 12 per second, like we're still talking 720, if my math is not finding me on the spot, requests per minute.
00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:12.980
Right?
00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:14.640
That's still a decent cliff.
00:16:14.640 --> 00:16:20.540
Like if you're running a business that's getting that much traffic every single minute, you're probably still doing pretty good for yourself.
00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:21.180
Yeah.
00:16:21.180 --> 00:16:23.860
That's 32 million page views per month.
00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:24.160
Right?
00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:28.320
That's like you're at a limit where you've got some real stuff going on, some real infrastructure.
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:29.540
Well, okay.
00:16:29.540 --> 00:16:34.300
So, but there's also, if I've got services running, I've got a bunch of services that include this.
00:16:34.300 --> 00:16:38.260
So, I mean, one user interaction isn't one hit.
00:16:38.260 --> 00:16:39.880
It might be dozens.
00:16:39.880 --> 00:16:40.960
Yeah.
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:45.640
So, my rule of thumb is honestly, don't worry unless you're going over a hundred a second.
00:16:45.640 --> 00:16:48.460
Like you should be able to hit a hundred a second without too much effort.
00:16:48.460 --> 00:16:50.340
And after that, you might have to start doing some planning.
00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:55.720
But I would suspect as a general rule of thumb, you can handle hundreds without a whole lot of effort in Python.
00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:56.200
Yeah.
00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:01.520
If you're getting to a thousand, you might have to do a bit more planning for it, but it's solely serviceable for that kind of thing.
00:17:01.520 --> 00:17:01.980
Yeah.
00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:02.700
Totally agree.
00:17:03.540 --> 00:17:06.060
Magnus Carlson has a quick comment.
00:17:06.060 --> 00:17:06.460
Nice.
00:17:06.460 --> 00:17:12.240
So, I can now see if my work turning my FastAPI app into async was worth it.
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:13.320
Yes, you can.
00:17:13.320 --> 00:17:15.700
That's a very good use of that.
00:17:15.700 --> 00:17:18.260
I'm going to be biased and just say it was totally worth it, Magnus.
00:17:18.260 --> 00:17:19.100
You just don't know yet.
00:17:19.100 --> 00:17:23.260
Because it's got the cool new design patterns.
00:17:23.260 --> 00:17:23.620
Absolutely.
00:17:23.620 --> 00:17:24.240
Exactly.
00:17:24.760 --> 00:17:25.980
All right, Brett, you're up next.
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:27.840
You've got something special for us.
00:17:27.840 --> 00:17:28.400
Yeah.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:28.840
Yeah.
00:17:28.840 --> 00:17:38.680
So, the world exclusive news breaking thing is the Python launcher for Unix is probably at RC stage.
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:45.580
For those of you who don't know about this, it's a project I've been working on since May of 2018.
00:17:45.580 --> 00:17:49.160
And if you're a Windows user, you probably know what I'm talking about.
00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:53.980
But on Windows, there's a little app called the Python launcher for Windows.
00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:55.240
And it ships with Python.
00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:56.920
And it gives you the Py command.
00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:01.420
So, sometimes you might see this on websites where they say, well, if you're on Windows, you run Python using PY.
00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:05.380
And then the command and other platforms just run with Python 3.
00:18:05.380 --> 00:18:10.160
And I decided that I kind of wanted this on Unix.
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.700
I had enough people complain to me about how it's difficult to get started.
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:19.740
We're having the Windows instructions on how to run something was always different from the Unix version and all this.
00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:20.260
Yes.
00:18:20.260 --> 00:18:21.420
That is really annoying.
00:18:21.620 --> 00:18:24.840
The very first thing you got to do, like right at the start, like, oh, it's so easy.
00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:25.780
But there's these two ways.
00:18:25.780 --> 00:18:27.380
There's like this diversion, right?
00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:28.180
Exactly.
00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:36.600
And I saw some benefits of the Python launcher because what it does on Windows is it serves kind of two key purposes.
00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:44.320
One is it kind of makes up for the lack of shebang support on Windows because the launcher will actually look for a shebang line,
00:18:44.320 --> 00:18:48.440
figure out what version of Python is required, and then finds the right version of Python to run it.
00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:54.400
The other thing is it does away with the need of caring about what order you installed your Pythons in.
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.820
Because, like, for instance, on Unix, like Python 3, what does that point at?
00:18:57.820 --> 00:19:03.840
Well, what it points at is the last version of Python 3 that you installed, not the newest version of Python.
00:19:03.840 --> 00:19:04.100
Yeah.
00:19:04.100 --> 00:19:13.980
So if you installed 3.9 today, but then installed the 3.8 security release that I think happened yesterday, you will get 3.8 as your version for Python 3.
00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:17.100
So if you don't specify Python 3.9, you won't be running it.
00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:20.900
Like, you have to either create your virtual environment and be using it that way or remember that.
00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:22.440
Python launcher takes care of all that.
00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:27.280
It will automatically just figure out what versions you have installed and just automatically run the newest version.
00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:29.160
And so I really like that.
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:36.480
So I decided to implement it in Rust, partially as a Rust project of decent size, and it's about a thousand lines of Rust code.
00:19:36.840 --> 00:19:43.880
And also because I wanted it, because if this works out, hopefully some projects can stop listing two different ways to run things.
00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:52.120
So in the Unix version, it's a little different from the Windows version, and I'll ask for feedback from the two of you and anyone in the live stream if they want to provide it.
00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:55.640
First, it looks to see if a virtual environment is activated.
00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.760
So it looks for the virtual under env environment variable, and if it's there, it just uses that.
00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:04.240
So automatically, this is a little shorter and easier if you have an activated virtual environment.
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:06.320
It's just PY now instead of having to type Python.
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:08.160
The next one is if you have...
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.320
You're here to save us from RSI already.
00:20:10.320 --> 00:20:12.840
I'm kidding, but this is really interesting.
00:20:12.840 --> 00:20:13.200
Keep going.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:13.660
Yeah.
00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:14.780
One third the typing.
00:20:14.780 --> 00:20:24.600
The other thing is if you create a virtual environment in a .venv directory, it will also automatically use that without activation.
00:20:24.600 --> 00:20:34.720
So once again, if you use the, I personally think, standard nomenclature, naming your virtual environments .venv, you don't even have to activate them anymore.
00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:42.480
Because activation is just a shorthand for the shell that, honestly, I typically just use to make Python do the right thing.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.160
Because I use dashed m for everything, even when I'm in an activated environment.
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.580
This takes care of that entire step for me, so I don't have to activate my environments anymore.
00:20:49.580 --> 00:20:50.920
That's super cool.
00:20:51.260 --> 00:20:56.320
After that, it does the shebang, just like on Windows, trying to figure out what the right Python might be for that.
00:20:56.320 --> 00:20:58.420
And then after that, it checks some environment variables.
00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:02.660
Like if you want to, if you have 3.10 installed, for instance, for Python, you have an alpha installed.
00:21:02.780 --> 00:21:16.160
But you want to make sure that if you ever say, hey, if I say Python, if I run Py with no arguments or say, hey, I want to run a Python 3 version of Python, you can actually set the environment variables to restrict it and basically specify the exact version you want.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.440
And then after that, it just, if none of that triggers, it just finds the newest version and runs that.
00:21:20.820 --> 00:21:22.440
I've been running this personally for a while.
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:28.680
And when I added the .venv support, I've completely switched.
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:36.820
I don't even bother typing Python anymore because this completely fits my workflow of just doing exactly what I think it should do whenever I need.
00:21:36.820 --> 00:21:44.560
Now, the question I have for the two of you and anyone in the audience who cares to answer is, do you think prioritizing virtual environments over shebangs makes sense?
00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:48.160
Now, my argument is yes, obviously, or else I would have done it this way.
00:21:48.260 --> 00:21:58.020
But this is partially, I don't know how much of this is a Unixism versus just in general, because I do hope to actually add Windows support to this as well and make this a universal Python launcher.
00:21:58.020 --> 00:22:04.220
So the reason I did it this way was on Unix, you can just chmod a file and add the executable bit.
00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:05.700
And that's how you can execute it.
00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:13.120
And honestly, most of my files at this point are going to be in a virtual environment anyway, whether it's sold via PipX or I create an entry point and I install that.
00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:16.200
So once again, I don't need the shebang directly.
00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:21.000
It's just going to be baked into the executable and Windows will do the exact same thing, right?
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:22.600
Like set of tools will give you that little shim.
00:22:22.600 --> 00:22:30.300
So to me, if I am running in a project directory with a virtual environment, whether activated or not, I'm assuming that's what I want.
00:22:30.300 --> 00:22:36.160
Don't try to figure it out for me or else I'd be running this somewhere else and I would not have a virtual environment installed.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:37.440
Does that logic make sense?
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:43.380
Do people do you think I made the right decision here and choosing virtual environments over shebang lines or am I crazy?
00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:45.520
I forgot shebangs were even supported.
00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:47.980
I'm all about virtual environments.
00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:48.320
Yes.
00:22:48.320 --> 00:22:49.180
Okay, cool.
00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:50.580
I think this is fantastic.
00:22:50.580 --> 00:22:55.600
I've long wanted an easy way to just say I'm down inside.
00:22:56.820 --> 00:22:58.420
Maybe you can tell me if it works this way.
00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:01.880
Does it traverse up looking for a virtual environment?
00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:08.300
Like if I'm in a subdirectory and I try to pie a file, but one directory up, there's a virtual environment.
00:23:08.300 --> 00:23:10.380
Will it go up and find that and then use it?
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:11.980
No, I did not implement it that way.
00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:14.320
It would not be too difficult to do it that way.
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:21.520
But for simplicity reasons, when I first plugged this in, for my purposes, I'm not an SRC guy like Brian is, for instance.
00:23:21.520 --> 00:23:23.720
So I don't need to worry about that as much.
00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:31.360
But that would be totally reasonable feature request to ask for to be able to traverse up a directory who's looking for the .vnv directory.
00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:32.320
Yeah, very cool.
00:23:32.320 --> 00:23:34.420
I'm down a level in my SRC.
00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:36.920
Go up a level to find the actual.
00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:40.820
Right, like I have a lot of things that will do like maintenance for my website.
00:23:40.820 --> 00:23:44.400
So I'll have like a bin folder as one of the subfolders of my website.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:46.020
Then I'll go in there and I want to run something.
00:23:46.020 --> 00:23:49.000
If I'm like, oh, I should have run and gone up and then bin slash.
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:50.060
I think it'd just be really cool.
00:23:50.060 --> 00:23:55.060
Like I'm sort of in the realm of this virtual environment, even if it's not at the same working directory.
00:23:56.020 --> 00:24:01.600
Yeah, and one thing I do want to clarify here is this is very much about simplifying running Python manually.
00:24:01.600 --> 00:24:05.200
It is not meant to completely replace running Python, right?
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:16.380
Like a misnomer I hear from people when I tell them about this is like, oh, hey, are you going to add a config file to be able to alias to PyPy versus specifically or this thing or a framework builder that thing is.
00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:25.300
And for me is if you have that kind of specific requirement of a specific version of Python you have installed, just use the absolute paths of that version of Python.
00:24:25.300 --> 00:24:28.940
Yeah, I don't think this is this is purely for I just want the newest version.
00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:30.760
I don't care what it is.
00:24:30.760 --> 00:24:32.840
Just give it to me or I have a virtual environment.
00:24:32.840 --> 00:24:34.040
Just give me the virtual environment.
00:24:34.040 --> 00:24:35.680
I don't want to have to think about it.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:41.500
If you have to put thought into what kind of Python you want to run, I think you should be specifying that manually, not be using this.
00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:50.220
Well, so on the side of the being able to go up a couple directories looking for virtual environments, I'm often not in the source directory.
00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:58.200
I'm often sitting in the tests directory running pytest on stuff, in which case, I guess I already am in a virtual environment.
00:24:58.200 --> 00:24:59.000
So it doesn't matter.
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:06.560
But I might just open up another terminal and try to just run Python.
00:25:06.800 --> 00:25:07.680
So I like this.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:12.420
I'm excited to hear that this is eventually going to be a Windows thing also, hopefully.
00:25:12.860 --> 00:25:16.860
I don't actually normally use the Python launcher on Windows.
00:25:16.860 --> 00:25:17.580
Does it?
00:25:17.580 --> 00:25:20.100
It doesn't do looking for virtual environments, does it?
00:25:20.100 --> 00:25:21.860
No, that's exclusive.
00:25:21.860 --> 00:25:24.420
That is exclusive to the Unix version of this launcher.
00:25:25.620 --> 00:25:31.100
So basically, the environment variable it will use, it doesn't actually look on path.
00:25:31.100 --> 00:25:32.860
It completely uses the Windows registry.
00:25:32.860 --> 00:25:34.280
It does the shebang.
00:25:34.280 --> 00:25:35.400
And that's it.
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:40.180
So looking in the .venv folder, that is entirely my addition.
00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:45.720
And the order of execution here is kind of tweaked to what I think.
00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:48.160
And it doesn't search on path, actually.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:50.480
So that's a Unix thing specifically.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:56.000
But I suspect this will actually help with the Windows Store, although I think Steve Dower fixed that issue with the Windows Store install.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.280
But yeah, so there's slight tweaks.
00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:05.480
But I figure if I have all the logic done already, there's no reason not to just make it universal to support multiple platforms.
00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:06.540
So why not?
00:26:06.540 --> 00:26:07.020
Yeah.
00:26:07.020 --> 00:26:11.720
So your announcement here has kind of lit up the live stream.
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.720
So ZDocs is just a Brett Cannon fan, which is awesome.
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:21.300
So Gendal Forth asks, is the Rust version cross-platform in any way?
00:26:21.300 --> 00:26:22.800
Is there a chance of this on Windows?
00:26:22.800 --> 00:26:25.020
No, I don't.
00:26:25.020 --> 00:26:26.760
I've not tried it on Windows.
00:26:26.760 --> 00:26:29.480
It definitely works on Mac and Linux, right?
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:31.800
So it truly is Unix-based.
00:26:31.800 --> 00:26:33.240
So it will handle that no problem.
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.120
I've not tried to wire it up into the registry at all.
00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:37.760
So that's not there.
00:26:37.760 --> 00:26:40.660
I have an open enhancement issue to do that.
00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:43.300
I honestly don't know what would happen if you tried running this on Windows.
00:26:43.300 --> 00:26:44.120
I haven't tried.
00:26:45.120 --> 00:26:48.620
Everything's very hard-coded to Unix at the moment, just to get this done.
00:26:48.620 --> 00:26:52.720
If you look at the readme, you'll notice everything is slash bin.
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:54.720
Slash user slash bin, yeah.
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:57.660
There's no scripts support here.
00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:00.000
If slash one, I do Windows support.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.040
Obviously, I'll look at fix.
00:27:01.040 --> 00:27:03.160
But I have tried putting zero effort.
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.020
Because the Python launcher for Windows just comes with the install from Python.org, right?
00:27:07.020 --> 00:27:09.600
So there was no real time pressure to try to get that done.
00:27:09.600 --> 00:27:11.160
So I haven't tried it.
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:11.800
I'm a big fan.
00:27:11.860 --> 00:27:14.520
I could try this on my macOS and I'd be happy now.
00:27:14.520 --> 00:27:14.980
Yeah.
00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:16.080
This is how I do it.
00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:16.780
I have it on my Mac.
00:27:16.780 --> 00:27:17.460
I just installed.
00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:19.600
You do have to install Rust to install it right now.
00:27:19.600 --> 00:27:24.500
Because I haven't figured out how to do distributable binaries that you can just download.
00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:28.780
But yeah, if you have Rust installed, which you can get through rustup or Homebrew or whatever,
00:27:28.780 --> 00:27:30.320
it's just a cargo install away.
00:27:30.320 --> 00:27:32.260
So if you want to get a shot, please do so.
00:27:32.360 --> 00:27:32.800
Fantastic.
00:27:32.800 --> 00:27:36.620
And then I kind of forgot that my Mac was Unix-y.
00:27:36.620 --> 00:27:38.880
That's right.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.460
And Magnus agrees on the VNV over shebang.
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:42.020
Awesome.
00:27:42.020 --> 00:27:44.320
And Gandalfor says same as well.
00:27:44.320 --> 00:27:48.480
I don't think I've ever seen a shebang that was more specific than user bin Python 3 anyway.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.080
Yeah.
00:27:49.080 --> 00:27:52.880
And I actually suspect the shebang support was partially because the Python launcher has been
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.160
around back in Python 2 days, right?
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:56.300
Where that was much more of a concern.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:58.820
So like, as I said, I started this in 2018.
00:27:58.820 --> 00:28:01.560
So it was pre-Python 2 deprecation.
00:28:01.560 --> 00:28:03.720
So it's still supported there.
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.300
But a lot of this, I think, was also partially to support the 2 to 3 transition.
00:28:07.300 --> 00:28:12.660
So those little extras here, I don't think are quite as important unless Python 4 happens
00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:14.480
someday, which there are zero plans for.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:15.360
So I don't think so.
00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:15.460
Yeah.
00:28:15.460 --> 00:28:16.580
Don't hold your breath.
00:28:16.580 --> 00:28:23.180
By the way, one extra nicety I want to tell people is if you're a Starship user, the Starship
00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:31.000
cross shell prompt, there's a setting in Starship that lets you specify how it figures out what
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:32.060
version of Python you have.
00:28:32.060 --> 00:28:36.520
Now, it does look for virtualenv, but otherwise it has a list of binaries that it will execute
00:28:36.520 --> 00:28:39.000
to try to figure out what version of Python you have.
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:44.500
If you set it to Py using this, it will always tell you either what the virtual environment's
00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:48.680
Python version is in the prompt or whatever the newest version of Python is installed.
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:50.380
So it has a really nice side effect.
00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:54.800
Because if you read the docs in Starship, there's a big tip saying, hey, if you have
00:28:54.800 --> 00:28:56.840
a Python installed that's default, i.e.
00:28:56.840 --> 00:29:01.040
macOS, and it'll always say 2.7 unless you happen to have an activated virtual environment,
00:29:01.040 --> 00:29:04.040
which always threw me because it's like, yeah, I'm not using 2.7 in this project.
00:29:04.040 --> 00:29:09.000
As soon as I added this support for .venv files and tweaked my Starship config for this,
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:14.020
it always tells me the exact version that I happen to have set up for my virtual environment.
00:29:14.020 --> 00:29:15.220
It's really handy.
00:29:15.620 --> 00:29:17.620
For those of us not in the know, what's Starship?
00:29:17.620 --> 00:29:22.600
So Starship is a cross-platform shell prompt tool.
00:29:22.600 --> 00:29:24.000
So it's written in Rust.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:29.560
But basically what you do is it has instructions for Bash and Zeesh and Phish and PowerShell and
00:29:29.560 --> 00:29:30.140
everything else.
00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:31.680
And basically it just gives you a line.
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:36.440
Brian's got it pulled up on the screen for those on the live stream.
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:40.220
And it's basically just an easy way to just say like, hey, this is how I want my prompt
00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:40.480
to look.
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.880
Don't worry about whether it being Bash or Zeesh or Phish, whatever.
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:44.980
Like I'm a Phish user.
00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:48.480
I'm sure Michael's probably a Zeesh user being a macOS user like he is.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:48.700
Yep.
00:29:48.700 --> 00:29:50.720
But it shouldn't matter.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:51.940
My prompt is a prompt.
00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:55.040
And pretty much they have pretty consistent user support.
00:29:55.040 --> 00:29:57.500
So I decided, yeah, you know what?
00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:00.160
I like some of the niceties it has automatically baked in.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:06.080
It does like notification, it changes prompt for the usual, oh, I edited my Git checkout.
00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:07.440
It'll tell you what branch you're on.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:08.460
All these little nice things.
00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:13.060
And setting fear code as my font gives me all the nice little glyphs that I want.
00:30:13.060 --> 00:30:14.400
And so I said, nice.
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:14.940
All right, cool.
00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:17.360
It'll tell me what version of Python is currently activated.
00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:20.280
Except for that annoyance of being on Mac.
00:30:20.280 --> 00:30:22.820
It kept saying, oh, you've got 2.7 until I activated.
00:30:22.820 --> 00:30:24.340
And I was like, no, I don't like this.
00:30:24.340 --> 00:30:26.660
So I prioritized getting the .vnv done.
00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:30.420
And then lo and behold, it magically now tells me exactly what I want for Python.
00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:31.000
Nice.
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:32.100
Wow, that's super cool.
00:30:32.100 --> 00:30:33.380
Yeah, now we know.
00:30:33.380 --> 00:30:34.240
Starship, fantastic.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:39.400
Yeah, so before we move on, I'd like to thank our sponsor.
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:43.060
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00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:22.820
Ooh, that's neat.
00:31:22.820 --> 00:31:23.780
Yeah, very cool.
00:31:23.780 --> 00:31:24.320
Thanks, Datadog.
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:28.220
So, Brett, I want to take you down a little bit lower.
00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:32.640
If it's turtles all the way down, a few turtles down to this whole TUI world
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.680
and talk about this thing called build a text editor with Python and curses.
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:40.800
Is curses, is that what you do when you get upset because it's too low level?
00:31:40.800 --> 00:31:42.360
Or, oh, no, it's about the curses.
00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:42.620
Sorry.
00:31:43.020 --> 00:31:43.220
Okay.
00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:45.520
Got to remember, I'm on the Python Bytes podcast.
00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:46.820
There are going to be jokes like that.
00:31:46.820 --> 00:31:48.740
They're going to be bad, too, by the way.
00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:56.340
So, no, here's a really cool article by Wasim Lorgat about basically walking you through building
00:31:56.340 --> 00:32:02.220
a text editor like Vim or Emacs in the terminal using curses, which is a library that lets you
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:06.800
control what happens on the screen much better than, like, print and log and warn and whatnot.
00:32:07.320 --> 00:32:09.540
So, there's a couple of just interesting things.
00:32:09.540 --> 00:32:12.420
I thought going through this might just give people a sense of, like, what it's like to
00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:13.060
work with curses.
00:32:13.060 --> 00:32:16.060
And then there's this context of this text editor you can play with.
00:32:16.060 --> 00:32:20.440
So, for example, a minimal curses app, all you got to do is define a function.
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:21.700
That's your main function.
00:32:21.700 --> 00:32:25.040
And then while true, go to the screen and get the key.
00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:25.660
And that's it.
00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:26.320
You just say get key.
00:32:26.380 --> 00:32:28.140
And it just gives you whatever gets pressed.
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:31.960
Without any help here, there's probably not a way to get out of it.
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:32.780
No.
00:32:32.780 --> 00:32:34.200
Maybe control C.
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:36.280
But, yeah, there's not, like, a quit or anything.
00:32:36.280 --> 00:32:41.080
So, you can really easily add, like, some tests and say, well, if they gave me the key,
00:32:41.080 --> 00:32:43.620
you know, escape, then show the little colon.
00:32:43.620 --> 00:32:46.780
You can WQ, exclamation mark, whatever, to get out of it.
00:32:46.780 --> 00:32:50.600
However you want to exit your text editor that you're building.
00:32:50.600 --> 00:32:53.160
And then they talk about how to show stuff on the screen.
00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:58.480
So, if you want to just add a line, you can say, at this X, Y screen, you know,
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.400
cursor location, just write this line of text on the screen.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:04.200
And it'll add that.
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:04.820
So, really easy.
00:33:04.820 --> 00:33:08.180
And, you know, one of the things they do is they pass over the file name.
00:33:08.180 --> 00:33:09.500
And it's kind of meta.
00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:14.140
Like, they edit the file that is the demo for the editor with the editor as they're building it,
00:33:14.140 --> 00:33:15.160
which is always fun to do.
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:17.740
So, you can do that.
00:33:17.740 --> 00:33:22.880
But then, through this article, they go through and they build out, like, a window class
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:24.700
that talks about how big is the screen.
00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:26.100
This is what Brett was talking about.
00:33:26.100 --> 00:33:28.920
Like, ah, I got to figure out what my screen looks like and all that stuff.
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.220
And also, a cursor where you are on the screen.
00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:34.720
How to have, like, a view into the file.
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.180
Because you might have, like, moved to the right a little bit.
00:33:37.180 --> 00:33:38.700
And the file might be a thousand lines.
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:41.260
But you've only got a 40 on your screen or whatever.
00:33:41.260 --> 00:33:43.420
So, anyway, if this is interesting to you,
00:33:43.420 --> 00:33:45.520
I think you should go through this article and check it out.
00:33:45.520 --> 00:33:49.540
In the end, you end up with a pretty simple but non-trivial little text editor
00:33:49.540 --> 00:33:50.580
that lets you do stuff.
00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:51.860
So, I think it's pretty neat.
00:33:51.860 --> 00:33:52.680
What do you guys think?
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.060
This shows me why I really hope Will grants Brian's wish
00:33:56.060 --> 00:33:58.240
of making Rich a full ty library.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.260
Yeah.
00:33:59.260 --> 00:34:00.260
I do agree.
00:34:00.260 --> 00:34:04.780
I think if Rich, if something like that that has a really beautiful display technology,
00:34:04.780 --> 00:34:06.320
but also has input.
00:34:06.320 --> 00:34:09.560
Like, this is cool because it has a really great way to accept user input
00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:10.900
and, like, update the screen.
00:34:10.900 --> 00:34:12.260
But it's very low level.
00:34:12.260 --> 00:34:16.620
It's like, I don't know, it's OpenGL versus Pi game or arcade.
00:34:16.620 --> 00:34:20.960
You're, like, at the level of, here's what I put at this cursor, this XY coordinate.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:21.740
Let's put that there.
00:34:21.740 --> 00:34:22.200
Yeah.
00:34:22.200 --> 00:34:26.520
I think it's a great showing of actually how much work it actually needs to go into making
00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:31.460
those full text-based UIs that you see, like you used to see at the grocery store and those
00:34:31.460 --> 00:34:34.660
screen, you probably still do at some of your grocery stores on that screen and just like,
00:34:34.660 --> 00:34:38.140
or when they book your airline ticket and you're like, oh my God, what the hell are you using?
00:34:38.140 --> 00:34:39.260
You do this all day?
00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:40.620
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:40.620 --> 00:34:42.960
It takes a lot of work to make those things happen.
00:34:43.080 --> 00:34:48.620
It's surprising how much work it is and hence why getting higher level libraries like,
00:34:48.620 --> 00:34:52.800
I think, that was the prompt toolkit we were told about earlier and Rich and all that would
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.160
be very welcome in existing.
00:34:55.160 --> 00:34:56.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.480
Do you got, either of you guys know if there's any curses libraries for Windows?
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.060
Magnus is asking.
00:35:01.060 --> 00:35:05.020
That's why he's used prompt toolkit before, but I'm not sure actually.
00:35:05.020 --> 00:35:05.900
Neither am I.
00:35:05.900 --> 00:35:06.480
Yeah.
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:06.900
Yeah.
00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:07.600
Cool, cool.
00:35:07.600 --> 00:35:08.240
All right.
00:35:08.240 --> 00:35:09.920
What's the next one?
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:11.200
Brian, you got the next one, right?
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:12.900
Actually, I skipped.
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:14.340
So, Brett's next.
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:16.280
All right, Brett's next and I'll pull up Brett's thing.
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:16.800
All right, Brett.
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:17.540
Okay.
00:35:17.540 --> 00:35:23.280
So, there's been a major language feature announced that is coming in 3.10, right?
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:30.920
Yes, which actually was in your quick links at the end of episode 220, which Brian called
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:34.140
the five-barrel foot gun, which is pattern matching.
00:35:34.140 --> 00:35:41.020
So, one of the things that always happens whenever there's a new Python feature that gets announced,
00:35:41.020 --> 00:35:46.020
and especially one of this size that gets out into the general community, is some interesting
00:35:46.020 --> 00:35:47.260
feelings from people.
00:35:47.260 --> 00:35:54.720
And so, this is kind of slash, I don't want to say rant, but a little just me as a steering
00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:59.940
council member just trying to explain how this all came about, where we're coming from as
00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:01.520
a steering council in general.
00:36:01.660 --> 00:36:06.000
I mean, obviously, I'm speaking for me directly, but generally, I think how the steering council
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:06.440
kind of thought.
00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:10.140
But also, just kind of helping put all this in perspective, because I think for a lot of
00:36:10.140 --> 00:36:13.960
people, this might be the first big feature that they've seen, because we used to do this
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:14.920
all the time in Python 2.
00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:17.800
But things kind of slowed down for Python 3.
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.720
So, as I said, I've seen around the internet a lot of people ranging from, oh, this looks really cool.
00:36:22.720 --> 00:36:26.820
I can't wait till I can use it, to people screaming bloody murder that we're killing Python.
00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:29.040
And oh my God, it's the death knell of the language.
00:36:29.040 --> 00:36:30.980
I've been doing this for 17 years.
00:36:30.980 --> 00:36:31.660
Is it stressful for you?
00:36:31.660 --> 00:36:33.360
Because it used to be?
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.080
It used to be stressful.
00:36:35.080 --> 00:36:36.420
Now, it's just frustrating.
00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:40.960
So, for instance, I gave a talk at PyCon US 2018.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:43.760
It was one of the keynotes about participating in open source.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.980
And one of the key things I said in it was people just need to try to be kind to each other.
00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:50.740
It's kind of a very generic thing, I know.
00:36:50.740 --> 00:36:52.500
But it really makes a difference.
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:58.780
As a project maintainer myself, having people tell me what they think I need to be doing or what
00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:01.540
I should be doing is really frustrating, right?
00:37:01.540 --> 00:37:04.940
Like, I put my personal time and effort into helping make this happen.
00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:09.720
And the way you respond to that is telling me what I should be doing.
00:37:09.720 --> 00:37:10.180
Yeah.
00:37:10.180 --> 00:37:15.800
Like, I can only imagine people who are parents having other people tell them how they should
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:16.680
be raising their children.
00:37:16.680 --> 00:37:18.680
It's worse than helicopter parents.
00:37:18.680 --> 00:37:20.780
It's like helicopter backseat parenting.
00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:21.460
Exactly.
00:37:21.460 --> 00:37:25.200
And it's kind of the equivalent for open source maintainers.
00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:26.900
People doing the backseat.
00:37:27.220 --> 00:37:31.800
Oh, here's what you really should be doing with your free time, with what little time
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:33.140
you have left on this planet, right?
00:37:33.140 --> 00:37:33.580
Yeah.
00:37:33.580 --> 00:37:37.300
So it used to get really upsetting.
00:37:37.300 --> 00:37:41.420
And now I'm just frustrated and just disappointed that this still happens.
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:44.520
It's also a little weird, too, because in Python, right?
00:37:44.520 --> 00:37:47.580
I mean, we have tens of millions of people using language at this point, right?
00:37:47.580 --> 00:37:48.800
It's immeasurable.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:50.000
It's just cute.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.920
Which means even if you assume one out of a thousand people are jerks, right?
00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:55.800
0.1%.
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:57.860
Let's do 0.01%, right?
00:37:57.860 --> 00:38:01.980
Like, we're still talking tens of thousands of people out there who basically know my face,
00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:07.600
name, and address and feel totally fine sending me mail on occasion or just posting out in the
00:38:07.600 --> 00:38:12.440
comments outside where we all congregate about what they think I should be doing with my life.
00:38:13.160 --> 00:38:17.680
So it's one of these things where it's just frustrating.
00:38:17.680 --> 00:38:20.000
I don't know how a lot of people feel about it.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:20.140
Sorry.
00:38:20.140 --> 00:38:24.860
But I think when you hear those negative things said to you, even if a thousand people are
00:38:24.860 --> 00:38:28.520
appreciative, the one negative thing you get feels so much.
00:38:28.520 --> 00:38:31.240
It makes such a bigger disproportionate impact.
00:38:31.240 --> 00:38:32.380
Yeah, at least.
00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:32.940
At least.
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:33.400
At least.
00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:35.620
And the problem is it's not relative numbers.
00:38:35.620 --> 00:38:36.660
It's absolute numbers.
00:38:36.660 --> 00:38:40.860
And at the scale that we're at with Python, the absolute number of people who just don't
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:44.760
haven't quite either just, I mean, honestly, some people are just totally ignorant that they
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.440
are speaking this way and that they don't really realize the way they're phrasing things matters
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:51.060
or even that the way they're phrasing it comes off that way.
00:38:51.060 --> 00:38:53.980
Like not everyone who says should really means for it to come off that way.
00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:54.580
Thank you, Dean.
00:38:54.580 --> 00:38:57.220
I appreciate the awesomeness call out.
00:38:57.220 --> 00:39:03.020
But it's one of these things where I have to bring this up every couple of years.
00:39:03.020 --> 00:39:06.520
And then I usually end up doing a blog post, which honestly, this is kind of a rough draft
00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:07.260
of the blog post.
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:08.800
I'm just talking out loud with all of you.
00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:09.020
Yeah.
00:39:09.020 --> 00:39:12.640
And bouncing ideas off all of you for the feedback.
00:39:12.640 --> 00:39:17.000
But it's just it gets a little exhausting that this is something I have to bring up every
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:17.560
couple of years.
00:39:17.560 --> 00:39:20.260
You'd hope that we'd all learn this by now.
00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:23.160
It's not like open source is a new newfangled thing we've all just discovered.
00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:28.740
But there's still this disconnect between the consumer slash user slash takers of open
00:39:28.740 --> 00:39:33.420
source versus the maintainer slash producer slash givers of the community.
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:37.500
And the disconnect of how to kind of just communicate with each other is still there.
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:42.240
And so specifically when it comes to this stuff with Python, right, is people go like, oh, my
00:39:42.240 --> 00:39:43.360
God, this is crazy.
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.400
And it's like, no, it's not.
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:47.020
I've been doing this for 17 years.
00:39:47.020 --> 00:39:49.320
Everything is controversial when it comes to syntax.
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:51.920
True and false were controversial, right?
00:39:51.980 --> 00:39:53.260
Like true and false.
00:39:53.260 --> 00:39:56.920
There were arguments on Python dev and whether or not we should add those keywords because
00:39:56.920 --> 00:40:01.620
they would break code that chose to define those constants as one and zero.
00:40:01.620 --> 00:40:03.780
Is that why it's capital T?
00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:05.840
Well, it's also because they're singletons, right?
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:07.700
And that's just kind of the practice we follow with none.
00:40:07.700 --> 00:40:09.680
So that was really kind of where it tied in.
00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:13.560
I mean, it definitely helped that capital T lower the chance.
00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:14.340
It's less likely.
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:15.020
Yeah, exactly.
00:40:15.020 --> 00:40:15.640
It's less likely.
00:40:15.640 --> 00:40:20.140
But that was an actual discussion we had was do we want to add booleans to the language?
00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:23.120
Now, today, everyone scoffs at that and laughs.
00:40:23.120 --> 00:40:23.880
Like, what?
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:24.700
Are you kidding me?
00:40:24.700 --> 00:40:25.120
Booleans?
00:40:25.120 --> 00:40:25.460
Really?
00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:28.540
Everything in the language gets debated, right?
00:40:28.540 --> 00:40:29.880
And in this too, right?
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:31.560
Like everyone's going like, oh, my God, what are you doing?
00:40:31.560 --> 00:40:33.420
Like, do you understand the timeline of this?
00:40:33.420 --> 00:40:37.620
Guido brought this up, I think, in July, maybe?
00:40:37.620 --> 00:40:43.540
And had as one pep, got a massive amount of feedback on Python dev on this, went back with
00:40:43.540 --> 00:40:49.340
his co-authors, broke it up into three peps, 634, 635, and 636, so that there was a pep
00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:52.900
about the design, a PEP about the rationale behind the design, and a PEP that acts as
00:40:52.900 --> 00:40:55.920
a tutorial to try to make it more easy to consume.
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.540
Brought that out in October.
00:40:57.540 --> 00:41:00.280
We discussed it on Steering Council 2020.
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.120
We made a recommendation that probably the next one should accept it, but we still didn't
00:41:04.120 --> 00:41:06.340
feel we had enough time to accept such a large thing.
00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:10.580
Fast forward now to today, where Steering Council 2021 had a chance to sit down and look
00:41:10.580 --> 00:41:14.560
at the recommendation and the peps and have a discussion, including calling Guido in personally
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:19.100
at least two times to talk directly to the Steering Council to help us understand where
00:41:19.100 --> 00:41:19.860
he was coming from.
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:23.040
Like, this was not a snap decision, but everyone acts like it was.
00:41:23.040 --> 00:41:23.400
Right.
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:24.280
This is literally taking over half.
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:27.120
It finally appears on their radar, and they're like, oh, where'd this come from?
00:41:27.120 --> 00:41:27.640
Exactly.
00:41:27.640 --> 00:41:29.260
Oh, it's like on Hacker News today.
00:41:29.260 --> 00:41:30.020
Suddenly it happened.
00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:30.580
Like, no, no, no.
00:41:30.580 --> 00:41:31.180
This has been happening.
00:41:31.180 --> 00:41:35.000
This has been in discussion actively in public for six months.
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:40.280
I first heard Guido talking with someone at a language summit in 2018 about the idea of
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:40.780
pattern matching.
00:41:40.780 --> 00:41:44.480
Like, this has been on people's radar as something people have wanted for that long.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:46.280
And I'll fully admit I wanted it.
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:48.480
Like, pattern matching is something I've wanted for a long time.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:52.980
But it's just one of these things, once again, people just don't stop and think about the
00:41:52.980 --> 00:41:55.180
time and effort that go into all this behind the scenes.
00:41:55.180 --> 00:42:00.200
It's just, in my worldview, this just happened versus, oh, there's probably stuff that happened
00:42:00.200 --> 00:42:01.340
that I'm just not aware of.
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:06.760
And specifically about this, one thing I always notice about this is people need to understand
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:08.060
the way the language is designed, right?
00:42:08.060 --> 00:42:10.440
Like, we aim to increase your productivity.
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:12.700
Now, that means different things to different people.
00:42:12.700 --> 00:42:16.000
But in general, it means keeping a language that's easy to understand and small enough to
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:21.000
have in your head, but also leads to you being more productive, which also means readability,
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:21.220
right?
00:42:21.220 --> 00:42:26.820
There's a lot of side effects that we all appreciate that come with productivity, but that's
00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:27.760
really the ultimate goal to me.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:29.360
It's not that the language is readable.
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.760
Readable makes you productive.
00:42:31.240 --> 00:42:34.340
And for pattern matching, there are certain algorithms that are just really difficult
00:42:34.340 --> 00:42:36.640
to do without pattern matching, right?
00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:38.660
Like the classic examples are parsers and compilers.
00:42:38.660 --> 00:42:42.620
And they're not easy to do without having pattern matching.
00:42:42.620 --> 00:42:45.500
There's a reason why functional programming languages that have had pattern matching for
00:42:45.500 --> 00:42:51.420
a very long time are the best places right now to typically write a parser or compiler because
00:42:51.420 --> 00:42:54.060
it just, the algorithm just works so much better that way.
00:42:54.340 --> 00:42:56.300
So there were reasons why we brought this in.
00:42:56.300 --> 00:42:58.740
There will be increases in productivity for some people.
00:42:58.740 --> 00:43:02.740
We do realize that it is a big lift, but we also realize not everyone's going to see this
00:43:02.740 --> 00:43:03.740
day one, right?
00:43:03.740 --> 00:43:08.420
This is not, it is way more than a switch statement, which I know a lot of people typically look at
00:43:08.420 --> 00:43:09.000
it as, right?
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:11.680
But the key point is it matches on structure.
00:43:11.680 --> 00:43:12.560
It's not a mat.
00:43:12.660 --> 00:43:14.780
It's not matching necessarily just on value, right?
00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:17.400
This is the big difference between an if statement versus not.
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.700
And so there was a lot of work behind this.
00:43:19.700 --> 00:43:21.700
So there are reasons.
00:43:21.700 --> 00:43:22.980
Like this was not major.
00:43:22.980 --> 00:43:26.660
The other thing I keep seeing about this is people going, oh, this is not Pythonic.
00:43:26.660 --> 00:43:27.960
Well, I hate to break it to people.
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:28.720
Well, it is now.
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:33.180
Yeah, I hate to break it to people, but Guido Van Rossum, the creator of Python, and that's
00:43:33.180 --> 00:43:37.760
probably the harbinger of what is Pythonic, is a co-author and a big pusher of this pep,
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:38.000
right?
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:39.500
Like Guido helped make this happen.
00:43:39.500 --> 00:43:44.100
So unless you want to go up to him at PyCon and tell Guido that he doesn't know what's Pythonic
00:43:44.100 --> 00:43:47.540
or what's not, I think we kind of just have to go with it that this is now what is considered
00:43:47.540 --> 00:43:47.960
Pythonic.
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:52.340
And I will say, I have seen people say, oh my God, this is what happens when we lose the
00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:52.900
BDFL.
00:43:52.900 --> 00:43:56.680
Like the person who was the BDFL made this happen, right?
00:43:56.680 --> 00:43:57.720
Yeah, it's not that.
00:43:57.880 --> 00:43:59.680
It's not a really funny disconnect with people.
00:43:59.680 --> 00:44:02.340
Like Guido drove this.
00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:04.600
Like Guido talked to the steering council about this.
00:44:04.600 --> 00:44:06.180
Like he was the point person for this.
00:44:06.180 --> 00:44:07.620
Like he really helped make this happen.
00:44:07.620 --> 00:44:13.340
So it's as Pythonic as it can be if you consider Guido the creator and head person in terms of
00:44:13.340 --> 00:44:15.820
the design of the language, which I will fully admit I still do.
00:44:15.820 --> 00:44:18.220
I kind of view Guido no longer as being BDFL.
00:44:18.220 --> 00:44:23.100
It's kind of, he relinquished bureaucratic overhead costs in his life of the language.
00:44:23.100 --> 00:44:24.880
And the steering council has more or less taken that on.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:27.300
But I still trust Guido's gut more or less.
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:29.440
Like if he really went off the rails, we'd stop him.
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:30.980
But I don't think this is him going off the rails.
00:44:30.980 --> 00:44:34.140
I think this is us going like, he's that one step ahead of us.
00:44:34.140 --> 00:44:35.400
Yeah.
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:40.680
And Echelion says, I just wrote a horrible if LF statement and he's looking forward to pattern
00:44:40.680 --> 00:44:41.000
matching.
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:41.620
Yeah.
00:44:41.620 --> 00:44:46.580
I mean, there are some real places where I think there's going to be benefits to ways to structure
00:44:46.580 --> 00:44:48.820
things that will just make things look better.
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:49.500
Yeah.
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:54.200
And Magnus says, agrees with me, that Python's full spectrum language and it just extends
00:44:54.200 --> 00:44:54.880
that spectrum.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:55.500
Yeah.
00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:56.080
Right.
00:44:56.080 --> 00:44:56.200
Yeah.
00:44:56.200 --> 00:44:56.400
Yeah.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:57.720
Thanks for that, Magnus.
00:44:57.720 --> 00:45:02.600
It's one of these things I think some people lose track of that being beginner friendly does
00:45:02.600 --> 00:45:04.540
not mean only for beginners.
00:45:04.540 --> 00:45:07.040
And that's where this productivity thing comes in.
00:45:07.080 --> 00:45:10.340
I think that's actually a huge part of Python's success, right?
00:45:10.340 --> 00:45:13.120
Visual Basic 6 was awesome for beginners, for example.
00:45:13.120 --> 00:45:14.660
But it just stopped.
00:45:14.660 --> 00:45:16.260
Like, well, you can't do that here.
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:17.900
You're at the limit.
00:45:17.900 --> 00:45:18.380
I'm sorry.
00:45:18.380 --> 00:45:19.500
No, I don't want to be at the limit.
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:20.500
I want to learn C++.
00:45:20.500 --> 00:45:21.200
Don't make me.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.800
Hey, if you want to be beginner friendly, go code and scratch.
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:24.300
Right?
00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:24.460
Yeah.
00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:26.740
No one wants the right production code and scratch.
00:45:26.740 --> 00:45:28.980
It's great to get going, but there's a limit.
00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:29.560
Yeah.
00:45:29.560 --> 00:45:34.200
One of the, one of the great quotes that I've heard that I think applies to Python is that
00:45:34.200 --> 00:45:39.000
you can, you can do easy things simply, but you can do difficult, difficult things are
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:39.520
possible.
00:45:39.520 --> 00:45:43.800
And I know I got that quote wrong, but it's definitely close enough that I'll just go with
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:43.960
it.
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.180
Like that is very true.
00:45:46.180 --> 00:45:51.360
Like that is the goal here is to make the common things easy and simple.
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:55.340
And make, and definitely approachable and make the hard things at least possible.
00:45:55.340 --> 00:45:56.220
And this is part of it.
00:45:56.220 --> 00:45:59.980
This opens up the possibility for things that were really difficult to do in Python before
00:45:59.980 --> 00:46:00.280
it.
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:00.480
Yeah.
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:00.860
Fantastic.
00:46:00.860 --> 00:46:01.660
So, yeah.
00:46:01.660 --> 00:46:05.160
So I'm thinking of doing a blog post about this whole rant called the social contract of
00:46:05.160 --> 00:46:07.980
open source to try to harp on this whole shoot versus need.
00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:09.260
And just, it's okay.
00:46:09.260 --> 00:46:12.900
It's, it's, it, I start to criticism is totally acceptable.
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:16.800
It's just be understanding about how you're delivering it because we're all on the internet.
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.440
We do here and they indirectly you will suffer because guess what?
00:46:20.520 --> 00:46:23.580
That project you're using is going to then suffer based on what you say.
00:46:23.580 --> 00:46:24.220
So it does matter.
00:46:24.220 --> 00:46:24.580
Yeah.
00:46:24.580 --> 00:46:31.920
And just one aside, I think last podcast, Michael said this was influenced from Haskell is actually
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:35.060
the design comes a lot from Scala specifically for this.
00:46:35.060 --> 00:46:38.740
But we got this comprehensions from Scala.
00:46:38.740 --> 00:46:41.100
So we have actually gotten some nice things out of Scala.
00:46:41.100 --> 00:46:41.580
Interesting.
00:46:41.580 --> 00:46:41.860
Yeah.
00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:42.160
Okay.
00:46:42.160 --> 00:46:43.040
Very interesting.
00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:43.380
Yeah.
00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:44.140
Yeah.
00:46:44.140 --> 00:46:46.840
I mean, my feeling is it's, it's a big step.
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:51.400
I think it's going to take some, take a while to really see the value of it.
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:56.080
If you're not working directly in a place where it's one of these algorithms that applies
00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:58.100
a lot, but I think it'll be good.
00:46:58.100 --> 00:46:58.520
Yeah.
00:46:58.520 --> 00:47:01.660
It's definitely one of those things that when you see it for the first time, if you, if you're
00:47:01.660 --> 00:47:05.920
not used to using like a language, like most functional languages that have pattern matching,
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:07.040
it just goes like, what?
00:47:07.180 --> 00:47:07.420
Why?
00:47:07.420 --> 00:47:07.740
Yeah.
00:47:07.740 --> 00:47:11.660
And then when, when you get exposed to it, when you start to use it more, it starts much
00:47:11.660 --> 00:47:12.900
like learning another programming language.
00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:15.200
It starts to tweak your approach to certain algorithms and stuff.
00:47:15.200 --> 00:47:17.600
And it's just, it's another tool in your toolbox.
00:47:17.600 --> 00:47:17.960
Really?
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:18.380
Nice.
00:47:18.380 --> 00:47:20.880
Well, Brian, you've got the follow-up, huh?
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:21.960
Yeah.
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:26.280
So I'm actually, that's why I thought this would be good as a, as a follow-up.
00:47:26.420 --> 00:47:34.340
So Guido announced that he wrote the introduction to pattern matching and, and that it's, it's
00:47:34.340 --> 00:47:38.940
now part of, it's part of an appendix A of PEP 636.
00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:42.980
So I went off and looked at it and it actually really helped me a lot.
00:47:42.980 --> 00:47:49.500
So this, this introduction kind of, I actually, I've been trying to follow this PEP and honestly
00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:53.040
been confused for a while as to like exactly how it's working.
00:47:53.220 --> 00:47:57.960
A lot of people have been focusing on the weird parts, but the easy parts actually are
00:47:57.960 --> 00:47:58.760
really nice.
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:04.660
So I really, the, the, there's an example that it starts off with that kind of looks like
00:48:04.660 --> 00:48:06.260
a switch statement, right?
00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:10.820
So it's a, I want to match a status and like an HTTP status.
00:48:10.820 --> 00:48:15.340
And then I do something different based on 400 or 404 or 418.
00:48:15.340 --> 00:48:18.480
And then, and then of course we're like, well, what, what about default?
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:18.820
Right?
00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:22.380
So there's going to be some sort of fall through that I handle all the other cases.
00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:23.840
And there's an example of that.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:28.860
And I was actually curious, the example here shows using the, just the single underscore
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:33.580
variable, magic variable as a, as, as a catch all.
00:48:33.580 --> 00:48:38.380
And so Brett, I was just curious, can I use any variable here or does it need to be the
00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:39.060
single underscore?
00:48:39.060 --> 00:48:39.500
Do you know?
00:48:40.220 --> 00:48:43.460
So I was actually going to come on at this when you were done.
00:48:43.460 --> 00:48:50.000
so the underscore actually has some special semantics here because, in most, most
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:52.720
languages that have pattern matching, the underscore represents the wild card.
00:48:52.720 --> 00:48:57.980
this has actually been one of the most controversial parts of peps 634 was the selection of this to
00:48:57.980 --> 00:48:59.280
stay consistent with other languages.
00:48:59.700 --> 00:49:05.460
while I will not suggest to people that there's an opportunity to remove pattern matching
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:07.920
or to necessarily have massive changes to it.
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:13.400
One of the things that if people try this out in real world code and can get feedback to
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.600
us well before beta one locks in and gets released.
00:49:16.600 --> 00:49:21.200
Cause that's our cutoff, for feature changes, for Python 3.10, which will be in
00:49:21.200 --> 00:49:21.780
May.
00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:26.800
this is one of those areas where we could, we could actually consider changing, right?
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:32.720
Like fixing up code to change this case, wild card syntax of an underscore to something
00:49:32.720 --> 00:49:34.260
else is totally possible.
00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:38.080
If we got feedback from the community that, yeah, this really was a nasty sticking point and
00:49:38.080 --> 00:49:39.000
really didn't work out well.
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:44.380
So I do want to say that there is still a chance to potentially influence the final outcome
00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:47.140
of how the exact exact thing is.
00:49:47.140 --> 00:49:50.580
Although I don't want to suggest that because it's not shipped in 3.10 yet, right?
00:49:50.580 --> 00:49:51.380
It's exactly.
00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:52.620
It's not shipped in 3.10 yet.
00:49:52.620 --> 00:49:56.480
so we can tweak if necessary, but don't come out.
00:49:56.480 --> 00:50:00.180
I wouldn't suggest people come out and try to completely rewrite the entire syntax.
00:50:00.180 --> 00:50:03.160
But in this specific case, yes, it is special.
00:50:03.160 --> 00:50:05.520
yes, some people don't like it.
00:50:05.520 --> 00:50:10.560
And if enough people really came forward and really said, this is the one thing I'd want to
00:50:10.560 --> 00:50:10.860
tweak.
00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:12.780
We, I think we'd be open to considering.
00:50:12.940 --> 00:50:16.160
Well, the underscore gets used so much for so many interesting things.
00:50:16.160 --> 00:50:17.180
Like why not one more?
00:50:17.180 --> 00:50:17.760
Make it.
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:18.560
I'm okay.
00:50:18.560 --> 00:50:20.900
I personally, I don't care.
00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:22.280
I just want to know what it is.
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:28.700
I mean, I didn't like, I didn't like spaces instead of braces when I first hit it.
00:50:28.700 --> 00:50:34.460
So, anyway, but what happens if I put it like X there instead of a underscore?
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:40.260
If you put X, so the rules here basically are, if you put a single name that has no dot in
00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:41.480
it, it's a binding.
00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:43.920
If you put a name there with a dot, it will be a binding.
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.320
Now, this is one of the things that I learned from Guido in one of our meetings that really
00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:48.440
helped clarify this for me.
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:53.500
And one of the reasons I ended up, voting to accept this was let's look at the, like,
00:50:53.500 --> 00:50:54.680
consider these cases, right?
00:50:54.680 --> 00:50:55.340
Return codes.
00:50:55.340 --> 00:50:58.020
You're probably not going to hard code 400 and 404 and 14.
00:50:58.020 --> 00:51:02.260
You're going to import the HTTP dot status module and you're going to specify the constants
00:51:02.260 --> 00:51:03.080
from there, right?
00:51:03.080 --> 00:51:03.520
Yeah.
00:51:03.520 --> 00:51:06.900
Do you really want to rebind those constants by accident in your code?
00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:08.120
Oh no.
00:51:08.120 --> 00:51:13.480
No, but because it's been imported from a module or off a class, for instance, you're not going
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:14.480
to be wanting to do assignment.
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:15.800
You're just going to want to reference it.
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:18.420
So if there's a dot in the name, it automatically is just a reference.
00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:23.360
Now, some people get really hung up on that when they think about the single binding of
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:24.600
a name, understandably.
00:51:24.600 --> 00:51:29.860
But here's the thing is, well, this is a case right now where if you had just a bare
00:51:29.860 --> 00:51:33.820
name, that's a bind where if there's a dot in it, it's actually going to be a reference
00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:36.460
and a load to do a value check.
00:51:36.460 --> 00:51:39.000
There is a potential in the future.
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:43.580
If people come back after trying out the PEP and having experience with pattern matching
00:51:43.580 --> 00:51:50.460
to add to the language, a leading dot, which is actually used in Swift, by the way, in the
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:51.960
Swift community for something else.
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:57.860
But the key point is we can make it like a dot X to act as a load for comparison for
00:51:57.860 --> 00:51:58.560
a local name.
00:51:58.560 --> 00:52:00.480
That's an interesting syntactical use.
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.400
Like it's not actually coming from anywhere, but treat it as if it were.
00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:04.140
Exactly.
00:52:04.140 --> 00:52:09.040
Now, this was originally in the PEP and there was massive pushback from people thinking
00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:10.320
that they would totally miss the dot.
00:52:11.220 --> 00:52:18.220
But Corey Benfield, who used to run requests and all that and has multiple talks from PyCon,
00:52:18.220 --> 00:52:23.280
a person who helped me start pushing sans IO development of libraries in the community.
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:27.320
He works at Apple now on Swift stuff and he posted something on Twitter and I asked him
00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:30.180
like, hey, does that leading dot have any problems with Swift?
00:52:30.180 --> 00:52:32.600
And they said, actually, the whole community is totally fine with it.
00:52:32.600 --> 00:52:33.800
There's no readability problems.
00:52:33.800 --> 00:52:34.700
It just totally works.
00:52:34.820 --> 00:52:39.940
So we could potentially in the next version of Python actually make it so that that that
00:52:39.940 --> 00:52:42.900
have it a dot in the name, whether it's just leading or not.
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:44.220
We could actually generalize that.
00:52:44.220 --> 00:52:48.540
But because it's a forward compatible thing and backwards compatible, we decided not to
00:52:48.540 --> 00:52:53.700
do that in this path and just try to just keep it simple, simple, keep it simpler than
00:52:53.700 --> 00:52:56.700
it had to be necessary to go out and then add an opportunity.
00:52:56.780 --> 00:53:02.940
So if I just put a bare X, it's going, will it hit it and will it bind to it and assign
00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:04.040
the value to X?
00:53:04.040 --> 00:53:05.000
Yes.
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:05.600
Okay.
00:53:05.600 --> 00:53:10.240
Actually, that's what I expected because as I go down this little tutorial, it talks about
00:53:10.240 --> 00:53:15.600
like, un pattern, like unpacking, which is totally cool.
00:53:15.600 --> 00:53:21.100
So let's say you have a, like a, the example is a point object, which is like just an XY tuple.
00:53:21.700 --> 00:53:27.720
now I want to be able to, if I, in the case statements are, you know, specific points
00:53:27.720 --> 00:53:33.100
that you're going to match to, or like, let's say you don't care what X is, but you, you want
00:53:33.100 --> 00:53:39.900
to fix Y at zero in, in the case, in the case block, you want to know what the value of X
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:40.260
was.
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:41.700
So you do want that binding.
00:53:41.700 --> 00:53:43.760
And that's, that's really just cool.
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:45.640
I just, I can't wait to play with this.
00:53:45.640 --> 00:53:50.060
So my, my follow-up question, I'm glad you showed up here is when can I play with this?
00:53:50.060 --> 00:53:52.560
Is this in one of the alphas now or betas?
00:53:52.560 --> 00:53:53.120
Or do you know?
00:53:53.120 --> 00:53:58.140
I don't, there is, I don't know if it's, I don't think it's landed yet.
00:53:58.140 --> 00:54:03.660
Bram Butcher, who's one of the coauthors of the PEP has a working implementation already,
00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:07.940
which was, which is actually available in a Jupyter was available in a Jupyter notebook
00:54:07.940 --> 00:54:08.540
somewhere.
00:54:08.540 --> 00:54:12.100
so there's definitely a fork somewhere where you can try this out.
00:54:12.100 --> 00:54:12.580
Okay.
00:54:12.580 --> 00:54:17.120
but I don't, this is not landed in mainline, so it's not out in an alpha quite yet.
00:54:17.120 --> 00:54:17.480
Okay.
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:20.960
one thing I did want to point out about this, that's really kind of cool.
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:26.280
with the example that Brian's showing here, right, is the match against a point argument,
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:29.020
as you said, that takes a two item tuple, right?
00:54:29.020 --> 00:54:33.240
You could actually change this to also accept a single item tuple that represented X and Y
00:54:33.240 --> 00:54:34.040
with the same value.
00:54:34.040 --> 00:54:35.820
And that would totally match separately as well.
00:54:35.820 --> 00:54:36.280
Right?
00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:38.620
So once again, this is matching against structure.
00:54:38.620 --> 00:54:43.240
So you could actually pass in tuples of different sizes and have it automatically just kind of
00:54:43.240 --> 00:54:45.720
maybe do something different with 2d or 3d.
00:54:45.720 --> 00:54:46.540
Yeah, exactly.
00:54:46.540 --> 00:54:48.020
Yeah, exactly.
00:54:48.020 --> 00:54:53.100
So because it's a structural thing and not a value thing, it opens those very interesting
00:54:53.100 --> 00:54:53.480
doors.
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:53.880
Cool.
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:54.160
Interesting.
00:54:54.160 --> 00:54:54.520
Yeah.
00:54:54.520 --> 00:54:54.720
Cool.
00:54:54.720 --> 00:54:56.560
It's really great to have you here to talk about all this stuff.
00:54:56.560 --> 00:54:58.960
final comment, close this one out.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:04.280
I guess, Zdoc says, I think, once good syntax highlighting lands, this will be as
00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:05.260
natural as less comprehension.
00:55:05.780 --> 00:55:06.180
Yeah.
00:55:06.180 --> 00:55:07.240
And that's actually a good point.
00:55:07.240 --> 00:55:13.040
One of the things, we had discussed was like the leading dot would, how hard would
00:55:13.040 --> 00:55:15.240
that be to see with or without syntax highlighting?
00:55:15.240 --> 00:55:17.800
And we realized that honestly, syntax highlighting will probably do it.
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:22.380
One thing some people were a little worried about was the reason this is even possible was
00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:26.840
because of the new parser that landed in Python 3.9, the, new PGM parser.
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:29.220
it can do more contextualized parsing.
00:55:29.220 --> 00:55:33.880
So that match, for instance, isn't going to suddenly make all your match keywords or the match
00:55:33.880 --> 00:55:38.380
method on from the re module on match objects suddenly not work.
00:55:38.380 --> 00:55:42.220
it contextually can tell that that match keyword is for a match statement.
00:55:42.220 --> 00:55:46.200
So there might be a little funky coloring for some people based on how your syntax highlighting
00:55:46.200 --> 00:55:46.460
works.
00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:49.860
Like you might suddenly have all your match methods highlighted like it was the match keyword,
00:55:49.860 --> 00:55:54.540
but honestly it'll be from, from, from what you're looking at in terms of the code,
00:55:54.540 --> 00:55:55.500
it's going to be fairly obvious.
00:55:55.500 --> 00:55:56.700
That is not a match statement.
00:55:56.700 --> 00:56:00.560
So we weren't too worried about that kind of, haziness as it were, when it comes to
00:56:00.560 --> 00:56:00.840
syntax.
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:01.280
Yeah.
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:02.040
No, this is cool.
00:56:02.040 --> 00:56:04.000
I know a guy on the VS Code team.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.000
So yeah, so do I.
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:09.440
You see him every morning in the mirror.
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:16.720
A quick plug and thank you to magic Python, which comes from, the magic Python team,
00:56:16.720 --> 00:56:18.720
uh, magic stack, the people who do edge DB.
00:56:19.340 --> 00:56:25.200
They actually maintain, the syntax highlighting, that we use in VS Code, as well as
00:56:25.200 --> 00:56:29.140
I think is using sublime text and Adam, like they have a generic grammar that they use that
00:56:29.140 --> 00:56:35.660
they just auto gen out to, various editors for their syntax, mostly text mate, format,
00:56:35.660 --> 00:56:38.940
but, kudos to them for always maintaining that, syntax highlighting.
00:56:38.940 --> 00:56:41.220
Cause that's actually what VS Code itself ships in the box.
00:56:41.220 --> 00:56:41.900
That's awesome.
00:56:41.900 --> 00:56:42.420
Yeah.
00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:42.660
Nice.
00:56:42.660 --> 00:56:43.840
Brian, I don't have any extras.
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:44.160
Do you?
00:56:44.160 --> 00:56:45.680
I don't know.
00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:46.820
Right.
00:56:46.820 --> 00:56:50.000
Anything else you want to throw out there before we, make a bad joke?
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.860
No, just thanks for having me on.
00:56:51.860 --> 00:56:56.620
Thank you for everyone listening to me rant on about, how to please try to, talk
00:56:56.620 --> 00:56:58.760
to maintainers that help them keep their sanity.
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:00.220
And, that's it.
00:57:00.220 --> 00:57:03.420
I hope, I hope people give the Python launcher a shot and it works for them.
00:57:03.420 --> 00:57:03.700
Yeah.
00:57:03.700 --> 00:57:04.520
That's very exciting.
00:57:04.520 --> 00:57:05.220
Let me know.
00:57:05.220 --> 00:57:09.420
I can't make any promises about it shipping specifically with Python, but at least it's a
00:57:09.420 --> 00:57:10.440
tool there that I find useful.
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:11.480
I hope others do as well.
00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:11.880
Cool.
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:13.060
I'll definitely check that one out.
00:57:13.060 --> 00:57:14.060
All right.
00:57:14.060 --> 00:57:15.040
You guys ready for the joke?
00:57:15.040 --> 00:57:16.280
you know, we're.
00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:17.900
We're all stuck at home.
00:57:17.900 --> 00:57:22.840
And especially if you're single, it's, it's really tricky to, to get out and meet people
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:24.220
and you know, whatnot.
00:57:24.220 --> 00:57:25.980
See, see what's going to make you happy.
00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:29.080
So I got a joke along those lines to kind of help people out there.
00:57:29.080 --> 00:57:29.460
Ready?
00:57:29.460 --> 00:57:30.580
All right.
00:57:30.580 --> 00:57:35.800
So there's this tweet by Christian, zoo says, if you're not happy, single, you won't
00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:36.860
be happy in a relationship.
00:57:36.860 --> 00:57:39.840
I mean, we've all heard this, how important it is to be just like content with yourself.
00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:44.620
She says, no, true happiness comes from closing 100 Chrome tabs after solving an obscure
00:57:44.620 --> 00:57:46.780
programming bug, not from other people.
00:57:46.780 --> 00:57:47.240
Come on.
00:57:47.240 --> 00:57:49.660
Yeah.
00:57:49.660 --> 00:57:51.180
Anyway, I thought that was good.
00:57:51.180 --> 00:57:51.740
And Kiki.
00:57:51.740 --> 00:57:56.620
Are you, are you two the type of folk who have like a bazillion tabs open at any one time?
00:57:56.620 --> 00:57:59.320
Or are you more like only keep open exactly what I'm working on.
00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:00.460
And as soon as I'm done, I close them.
00:58:00.460 --> 00:58:07.040
I am not a hundred tab person, but what I do sometimes I'll like leave the tabs open.
00:58:07.040 --> 00:58:08.300
Like, oh, I'm not done with this.
00:58:08.300 --> 00:58:09.360
And so I'll close it.
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:13.160
If I got to reboot the computer, the first thing I do is reopen the browser and say history
00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:14.220
restore previous session.
00:58:14.220 --> 00:58:15.460
Cause I'm like, there were things in there.
00:58:15.460 --> 00:58:17.460
I don't know what I was doing, but I know they're important.
00:58:17.620 --> 00:58:19.720
So I may abuse that a little bit.
00:58:19.720 --> 00:58:24.680
I, my daughter came to me once and said, I need dad like finals.
00:58:24.680 --> 00:58:26.300
And then my laptop is too slow.
00:58:26.300 --> 00:58:27.060
I need a new laptop.
00:58:27.060 --> 00:58:28.960
Like, okay, well, let's talk about what you're doing.
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:33.140
Well, she was doing like three research projects and had like a hundred tabs open.
00:58:33.600 --> 00:58:35.900
I'm like, well, let's just try this first.
00:58:35.900 --> 00:58:39.660
Can I, can I tell you about this cool thing called bookmarks?
00:58:39.660 --> 00:58:43.960
And anyway, totally fixed it.
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:45.240
So yeah, that's awesome.
00:58:45.240 --> 00:58:47.580
Hipster dad showing bookmarks to the youngsters.
00:58:47.580 --> 00:58:49.620
Yeah.
00:58:49.620 --> 00:58:53.740
Magnus says the number of tabs is a measure of how hard the problem is.
00:58:53.740 --> 00:58:56.880
And Niels says a great rant.
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:57.640
Love your work, Brett.
00:58:57.640 --> 00:59:00.180
Great to have you on the show, Brett.
00:59:00.180 --> 00:59:01.560
Always happy to be on.
00:59:01.560 --> 00:59:02.320
Thanks for being here.
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:02.880
Thanks to everyone.
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:03.280
Brian.
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:03.620
Thank you.
00:59:03.620 --> 00:59:04.340
Thanks as always.