From Formula One Performance Coaching to Corporate Leadership with Jake Aliker

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Today we're looking into the mind of Jake Alaker, who we're going to discuss his positioning from Formula One coaching into corporate leadership.
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And welcome to the show, Jake.
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It's great having you.
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Thanks very much, Tarek Jay.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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Grateful to be invited.
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And it's from our perspective, Jake, it's quite an elite mind you have.
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We're going to go into that as we go into your history and what it is you've done in the world and the difference it's made.
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I mean, you've been part of some big stuff.
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Do you want to get into what's behind that?
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What have you learned from that?
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What have you gleaned from that?
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How are you using that now?
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You've stepped into Formula One at the highest level.
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You were Max Verstappen's coach.
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That's not an easy big man.
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A lot involved in that, a lot of responsibility, a lot of accountability, a lot of hard work went into helping him become a world champion.
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And then you stepping away from that to set up your own business is a huge decision to step out of that.
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We want to get into the world as well.
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I want to get into the little bit of the nitty-gritty in the Formula One world because from the outside it looks really glitchy, but from the inside it's quite a different experience.
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You know, having you on here is for us a real privilege.
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So thanks for coming.
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And you know, we want to dig into your mind.
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That's okay.
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Yeah.
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You've experienced a little bit of my mind, Jake, in the past, obviously, some of our interactions and work that you've helped me with.
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So yes, I shall I look forward to trying getting it across.
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And already in that intro, you said some pretty funny stuff, which my mind thinks too, you know, with Max, the opportunity that it was a pretty tough job.
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And I remember some of my friends and colleagues still working there would say, especially in those early years, they said, in some respects, you've got the easiest job in the paddock because you've got the quickest guy behind the wheel of the car, and he's just, you know.
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And then, but the unoverriding sentiment was, yeah, you've actually got the hardest job in the paddock and hardest setup.
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So it was a nice kind of experience between the two.
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So I look forward to getting into that.
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So, like you've worked at the very highest levels of hive performance, and so before we get into all that stuff, including that and the other stuff that you're doing now, where did your passion for performance, for human potential, for motor racing specifically, where did it all come from?
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Talk us through a little bit about your history there, Jake.
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The first time I experienced at the time I didn't know it, but it was a school rugby that I played in with a bunch of mates, and we were underdogs, and we won.
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And it's a long time ago now, so I'm probably sort of also making up to fit this bill.
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But I just remember a very, very powerful, intrinsic feeling when the final whistle blew and mates embracing each other, a kind of feeling that's very hard to put your sort of finger on it of what it was.
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And I very quickly was hit with the realization at quite a young age there, I was like, whatever this is, this surely doesn't get better than this.
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So I want to surround myself in moments like this and create moments like this that when you recount and recall, can kind of put hairs on the back of your necks.
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And you might embellish it a little bit, but all the better for it for a good story.
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That was my first experience of it.
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And then I guess so I thought, what is that?
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And how do we create moments like that?
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What's going to be my entry to help create moments like this or be a part of moments like this?
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That was the first one.
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And then my sort of interest in creating that through sport led myself to the preparation side of sport, the physical fitness side.
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And really, I started recognizing that I had strengths and skills and tendencies that supported helping people achieve milestones, accomplishments that were maybe beyond their perspective at first, beyond what they thought was possible for them.
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And I got to do that, and I recognized I enjoyed doing that through physical challenge, through physical endeavor, a little bit of collective struggle in a sort of healthy way.
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And so the fitness and the strength conditioning side became my vehicle to go in and do that and have those conversations.
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And Tarek, I think Jay knows my background originally was in strength conditioning in rugby preparation.
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And motorsport actually came out quite out of left field, Jay.
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And in answer to your question, you know, my passion for motorsport was developed.
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Not instantly, I'm not from a motorsport background, and I think that's where I had quite a unique position coming into and working with Max and working in racing generally.
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I think it was a strength and could be leveraged as a strength.
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But yeah, I very much first recognized that okay, I was getting rugby players bigger, fitter, quicker, stronger.
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But the real gain and the real, I suppose, feeling of fulfillment for me came from those smaller conversations on the team bus, on the walks back from the training pit in the gym with an injured player, starting to have those conversations.
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The challenging conversations with head coaches and testing where I could not get out of my lane, well, yeah, maybe get out of my lane and question that, and then kind of challenge a head coach with something about what he's doing on the pitch.
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And that stood me in good stead for motorsport because I was no pun intended, but I was way out of my lane coming into motorsport and then trying to speak to big kind of household names in terms of the sporting world, in terms of the motorsport world, to have conversations to get influence there.
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So it was in those early years that's kind of post-university where I've recognised that my vehicle in is the physicality, the physicality piece for people.
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Were you into motorsport before Formula One, or Formula One was your entry point?
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Yeah, Formula One was my entry point, and at a surface level, so I would know the big names and I would occasionally catch the opening few laps of a race if I was flicking through the TV channels on a weekend or trying to get to the rugby channels or the football channels, and I'd see the race was finishing, or I'd see Jensen Barn had one, or I'd seen that Hamilton had one, or these kind of guys.
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And it wasn't actually until I watched Senna, the documentary.
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I remember watching that, was pretty bowled over by it, just as a sort of piece of production.
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And it also helped me recognise what I've believed now is that motor athletes are more akin to certainly ones I've experienced, and the point of difference we try and say is they're almost like extreme sport athletes.
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There's the rebellious side to them that needs to be worked with rather than kind of contained and put in a box.
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And I got that impression a long time ago from watching a documentary which I know to be very well edited and done for entertainment purposes, but it still struck me as a cool place to be.
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And the invitation for motorsport, like I say, came out left field.
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I was very set in my ways in rugby, thinking I was going to go on and work for England and I wanted to go on a Lions tour as like head of performance, things like that.
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All of those coaches that had done that made me had done something quite different and come back to a kind of leadership role within a performance setup.
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They'd gone and done something quite obscure and learned something in a different perspective.
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And I saw motorsport as my way of doing that.
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It's now turned out to be my main thing of in a high performance setting, in a sporting setting, it's become my biggest piece of work and continues to be.
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And Jake, were there any sort of transitionary challenges going from rugby to motorsport, perhaps culturally speaking?
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Yeah, big time.
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My challenge in my first year with Max, I was alien to the sport.
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So technically I didn't have a kind of authority to kind of go, oh yeah, I saw you did that, or that was a crap race or good lap.
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I didn't know what a bloody, I couldn't tell you what a good lap looked like, or a bad lap looked like to tell you what a bad lap.
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But no, and that transitionary piece, I was looking back over my shoulder comparing everything to rugby.
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And I'd come from, I'd been at Harlequins for a year, I'd then gone and worked in the championship with Jersey, who were uh at the start of the infancy of their professionalism.
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Guys on 12 grand a year contracts, like fighting tooth and nail to get another 16 grand a year contract the next year, sort of thing, and tell them to run through this brick wall, drink this shake at this time, piss at this time, go to sleep at this time, and they'd be like, Yeah, yeah, whatever.
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I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it.
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And then going into this setting was very, very different.
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I recognized I had this great big grand plan of a nice periodized strength conditioning program that would just fit, and Max was going to be the fittest, best prepared driver on the grid.
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That's my sort of thing that I set in my head, and very quickly just realized that's just not going to stand up here in this world.
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I think to coin a phrase that you gave me, Jay, in our some of our early interactions, it was about the skill set of getting influence where I had little authority, but actually using that as a strength rather than like, I don't know anything about sport here.
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That was the big challenge.
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It was a foreign sport.
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I was working with a hardcore Italian team, spoke broken sort of English.
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And in that early year, I was thinking, Christ, what have I done here?
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Is this a sport?
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Is it sort of businesses?
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What's going on here?
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Because it was so much more complex, actually.
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Rugby's a complex game, far more complex than the sport of driving, but the world that I was in was just so far more layered.
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So a couple of things that stand out for me there, Jake.
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Why you suited the environment, I think, from listening to you here today is number one, you're very toward motivated.
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So you talk about you being motivated toward what you wanted, the outcomes, you know, the opportunities.
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That's a toward motivation, not an away motivation.
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You're very people-oriented and you're very relationship-oriented.
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You'd be there to engage in the conversation, right?
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That made you quite different, I think.
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And that's what led you to be good at getting the influence without the authority.
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So for me, that stands right out here.
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You're in with Max, he's a young driver.
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I'm guessing at times he comes across as very prickly.
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He was probably prickly, I'm imagining.
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Tell us about the formative years of like you and Max.
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How did you react to one another?
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How did you get into his real confidence, Jake?
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Yeah, the early years, I mean, interview itself is a sort of formal word.
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The my first interaction with him was to go and spend, flu from Joseph, go and spend a day and a half with him and his wider family.
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Went out for dinner with his family, but go spend a day and a half with him.
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Do some training, which was it was just an example of some of the sessions we might do.
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But it's really just a touch point to see is there enough chemistry here?
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You guys are going to be spending a lot of time with each other most of the year, traveling around, living with each other.
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So is there enough basis here?
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And this Max just turned 17.
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I think I was sort of 31 from a rubby background, and I could see straight off, he didn't give a hoot really what I was going on about or the gym sessions.
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He just preferred when we were sitting, having a chat.
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Those early years as well, he his trajectory was, and kind of maybe not at the moment, but it his trajectory was just, you know, like that.
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And to get to the point where I said, well, okay, we've got to think about we could consider this in terms of a professional outfit, your preparation.
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What is your fitness like?
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And I think we'll get it into it a little bit later, as I know some thoughts as we'll evolve, is you know, what were the challenges and what does it take to perform at your best?
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But the change, what happened quite instantly was I'm gonna really need to rethink this because the sport itself, as well, the fittest driver doesn't win.
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So that was a big shock for me from a sport like rugby and from being in a sort of personal training world where we can solve everything with your physicality, and if you can do this better and if you've slept better and if your resting heart rates better, you're gonna be quicker in the car.
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And so I really lent on the engineers.
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I really lent on a great relationship with GP, his engineer that's you know with him now and roles changed, but they were critical for me.
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But yeah, challenging years, and he'd just turned 17.
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I'd asked him, does he want to try something?
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He would go, no.
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So I go, right?
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Can you do that, please?
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No, right.
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Should we try it this way?
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Should we try it that way?
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And I'd have to get position myself on side.
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And I quickly learned again, leaning on my strong suit, was those conversations were far more effective immediately post training session.
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I knew if there was anything over a weekend or I was like, I'm gonna ask him something that I really know he's not gonna be a fan of.
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I'll try and present it in a way that will be like outline that this is gonna indirectly, but you know, help his performance.
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What can we do first?
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Well, let's get his defenses up where just there's that rebellious spirit and probably at its peak at 17, 18, you know, do this, no, go on, do this, it will help you.
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I know what's good for you.
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And this was the big learning that I started realizing was happening to me.
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Not at the time I didn't realise, I was just getting in a bit of a battle with it and trying to find better ways to kind of get ahead of each other.
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But actually, what was happening to me was yeah, learning how to really get that influence.
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But those early years, yeah, were challenging.
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Coupled with the fact that his first two, three years, he had an underperforming car that he was sitting under.
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I think it was in one of his early press conferences, a few races into his career, where he just said if he was in Lewis Hamilton's car, he's pretty sure he'd beat him as a 17-year-old.
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Yeah, as a 17-year-old kid, and he and he just says it's dead pan and kind of wooden.
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And I know people thought, oh, he's just sort of a bit moody.
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And he was also going through a change as well.
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So yeah, the early years were great, and that's what some people said you've got the hardest job, actually.
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Okay, you've got potentially the meanest and quickest and deadliest driver behind the wheel, but you've also got this challenge here of drivers are they know what they like.
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Something powerful because even in the personal training world, which I was in heavily involved in and educating and so forth, and even coaches, we go in.
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Perhaps we myself and yourself and others out there who have been in this position, we have a plan.
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So you talked, you alluded to earlier about your periodization, but then you became creative.
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And I think what's highlighted there is you went from your first person, you were quite stuck in into your own first personal world.
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And I think that's quite pivotal as insightful for those coaches of personal training.
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And I still try and apply that a lot today.
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Any challenges we have with clients or discussions, whether it's new clients or boarding process, it's the lesson that stood me in good stead.
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And I hang my hat on, and we'll talk more about the leadership space now, but you kind of see that as the challenges very much.
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Try and see this as I'm seeing it, or like this is how we, you know, you just can go around circles.
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So I think how you can set that out.
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And at the time in the early years with Max, I was learning that as I was going a bit on the fly.
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Then Jay, the work we did, I think sort of 2017, near enough, sort of started 10 years ago, 2017 maybe, just helped influencing those conversations in the wider aspect.
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Yeah, it's very much this is as I see it.
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Tell me how you see it.
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And the helpful insight now it's all about it's changed a little bit the landscape of the coaches, but also the drivers, their attitudes are more traditionally athletic based.
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So, right, are we doing everything actually?
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Like, let's do everything.
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I've heard about this wearable that measures this, and I'll take this into consideration and I'll take that into consideration.
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And any edge.
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Yeah, any edge.
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And that's great.
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I've worked with a load of drivers, and certain drivers need to come from that direction and consider that, and others need to come from the other direction.
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Because from my time in rugby, from my time in other sports, when I was intern in quibs, big thing was like, how can we use our GPS?
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Right?
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How can we track our players?
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We'll gather all this data.
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I did a great project, friend of ours, Jay Damsey, who introduced me, well, he's at Kitman Labs now, the performance analytics company.
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We brought them on board and had some conversations with the Red Bull engineers because they alluded to this nice insight that in field sports or sports of manpower, you've got all this data on the players, loads of streams of data on the players, but you have no performance data.
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The tie to the all the data on their stats covered is very hard.
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It's kind of quite a cherry pick to say this makes the difference on the scoreboard.
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And in motorsport, it's completely the other way around.
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They have all the performance data.
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This is how the car moves quicker, the clock.
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They can put a bit of kit in a wind tunnel.
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The engineers can do their you know equations and say this will give us this much more performance, but there's nothing on the driver.
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There might be some temperature stuff now, they've got some biometric gloves, they might have a heat suit on, they might do a P test.
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The bridge there to cross to does it make the car go quicker, does it make the boat go quicker?
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And Max was a fantastic teacher for me because straight off he was from that perspective of this is the most important thing, Jake, and don't worry about like I've got this thing.
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His thing is late on in rage, late on the break, early on the throttle.
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That's all I've got to worry about.
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And I would come and say, okay, you worry about that.
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Now I know I would ask Kitman Labs, I would ask Danzi, I'd ask my network to help the engineers what goes into late on the break, early on the throttle.
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Now I could say long term, he needs to be as fit as he can be if he's rested, if he's in a good mindset.
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Because engineers and performance coaches, sports scientists, want to know.
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And this is we we almost opened the door into a philosophical sports, your view on sports science on what it goes to because it's needing to know.
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And I began to surrender some of that needing to know versus just because coaches and teams and managers say to me, Oh, we just need the driver in, he just needs to be, he's in a good place, just needing to be on it.
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Yep.
00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:45.480
Okay, what do we mean by that?
00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:59.720
And there are some patterns that are you know kind of ubiquitous across all drivers, but the road to get to them is super, super unique, very, very individual, none more so than Max's, and it gave me this kind of outlier perspective.
00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:07.400
Now, in a lot of senses, Max was exception to the rule, and that was brilliant for me and essential for me, sort of essentialism.
00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.080
And now people want to strip stuff back, they don't quiet the noise.
00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.960
Max came from that point, and actually what strengthened him was a lot of the other stuff that came on.
00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:21.240
Whereas other drivers and other people I work with, sometimes now I work to strip them back.
00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:28.119
I do a bit of a keynote recently, the last couple of years, which I've put together, and it's we started with a debate about wearable tech, Tarek.
00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:34.279
So your whoops, your auras, and we open it up to the floor, and half the tables are pro, half the tables are against.
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:36.519
But it's more that it represents change, right?
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.720
Wearable technology change, and it's people's attitude to change.
00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:55.879
Some drivers are too concerned and freaked out if they have a red recovery going into a race week, for example, and if they've eaten crap, and it's like, oh no, those drivers, I say, I want you to have a slice of pizza and a can of Red Bull, and know that you can go in the car, and it doesn't matter, you're gonna absolutely kill it.
00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:04.920
Sometimes Max would want to have a pizza and a Red Bull before getting in the car, and I'd say, No, no, have the green smoothie and the protein shake and blah blah blah, because long term that's gonna sort you out better.
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:15.160
But in the moment, that's what I began to realize that you know what there's this performance in the moment, and then the long-term longevity in the game, and it's getting that sort of that balance right.
00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:34.599
It really strikes me, Jake, but through really listening to you talk here today, how concerned the industry, and not only this industry, but sport in and of itself, is really very concerned about what it can see, the data, what it can measure, the science behind it.
00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:45.400
But you know, really, up until your start realizations, there's very little scrutiny on the attitude, the mental state, the mindset of the driver.
00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:54.279
There's almost none of that in what you've been explaining, but yet you realize that you kind of got there yourself to realise there's more to it than this.
00:18:54.519 --> 00:19:00.519
It's more than just whether he has a red bull and a pizza, it's more than the data, it's that makes him a good driver.
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:09.720
What did you start noticing from a mindset perspective that made a difference to performance in that what you call extreme sport?
00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:10.920
You're absolutely right.
00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.879
And side note to your question, and it's happening now, isn't it?
00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:16.359
I think and Tarry, you probably are certainly more privy to it.
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:21.559
The neurofeedback, brain mapping, starting to put numbers on in being in the zone.
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:26.359
So I'm sure you know the next swoop in 10 years is gonna have a brain thing that's saying whatever.
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:27.240
But yeah, you're right.
00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:39.319
But the in terms of the mindset was you talked about it, Jay, and a lot of your work in the wider coaching room community about kind of accelerating maturity, and very quickly we realized what that might look like.
00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:55.960
And it was bringing, funnily enough, to make Max more, you know, sort of uh ruthless or intimidating behind the wheel, more of a killer in the moment, was bringing a lightness, an element which doesn't get spoken about much, but enjoyment, another metric, very, very hard to measure, right?
00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:57.720
But very easy to experience.
00:19:57.879 --> 00:20:05.559
And in a world like Formula One where you have these phrases like, I'm gonna be a killer behind the wheel and gonna be that, and you absolutely need that.
00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:09.879
And what goes into it, what got and this, what goes into this late on the break, early on the throttle.
00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:19.000
Talk about physiology infecting psychology and that recognition, the enjoyment piece was that you can also enjoy this.
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:26.279
There's permission to go and enjoy this, to engage with mechanics, to sort of have a laugh and to just loosen up a little bit.
00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:28.119
How we did that was varied ways.
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.879
Even in training and preparation, we started bringing his gaming in, right?
00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:41.480
All racing drivers are quite that mix of petrol heads and engineers at heart, so a sort of real obsession that they love gaming, and we brought that into the physical fitness sessions.
00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:54.920
So reps on the ski erg would be interspersed with Call of Duty, sitting on there and popping off some people for visual acuity still, seemed to fit quite well, it was quite good, or going and doing actually a lap on his sim that didn't quite flow so well.
00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.759
There's a lot of like setup FIFA in terms of moments of relaxation.
00:20:58.839 --> 00:20:59.720
We play FIFA.
00:20:59.879 --> 00:21:05.640
I've got the capacity to focus and concentrate on about maybe two games of FIFA, that's about seven minutes, right?
00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:06.839
Or ten minutes work.
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.960
And these guys, Matt's, could sit and play for hours.
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.240
You know, you hear about the teenage son in his room play gaming for hours.
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.319
I had a probably an inverted snobbery, but that is the training.
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:24.440
You're not smashing it in a gym, you're not smashing weights, you're not doing yoga or meditating or doing Pilates in your spare time, you're gaming.
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.799
And actually, it took me a while to go, yeah, fair play.
00:21:27.879 --> 00:21:29.319
I bloody couldn't do that.
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.240
Most people can't do that.
00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:37.400
Just calm as you like, sit there going six hours, four hours, five hours straight, not a problem.
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:38.119
No fluid.
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:42.599
Oh, I haven't got up and I haven't fueled, I haven't had 30 grams of carbs every 30 minutes.
00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:43.400
Not a problem.
00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:47.079
But that joyful side started, okay, we can change your training.
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.480
And me taking you in the gym session now looks different.
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:50.440
Where can we bring you?
00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.440
He travelled round, or probably still does.
00:21:52.519 --> 00:22:07.559
I'd be surprised if he dropped the habit, but he used to have a portable PlayStation in this kind of almost like businessman like suitcase that would travel round with us everywhere, and sort of on the track in between sessions, we would like flip it open and go, right, okay, let's we'll get ready, we'll do a few games.
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:12.519
So just changing the landscape of how he prepared, and then on track, I wouldn't formally quantify.
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:17.000
But just an observation on sort of would listen and how much is he laughing?
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.960
How much is he engaging with different members of his team?
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.279
Is he taking the piss out of his press officer?
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:29.160
Because he's got the visor down, I need to engage and be absolutely the max that I can be behind the car.
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:29.879
He's got that.
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.720
Of course, I would help create conditions to make sure that was sustainable.
00:22:33.879 --> 00:22:39.559
But the other stuff, and that's where I think actually his early teammate at Red Bull, fellow countryman of yours, Mr.
00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:50.440
Daniel Ricardo, was a great teammate for him because he helped sort of Max bring out that jovial side and that joyful side and that lighter side, which sharpened Max's ax.
00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:57.079
But traditionally, maybe he wouldn't have thought this is the way I need to go because it looks like I'm pratting about or I'm not being serious.
00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:00.279
Maybe back then, yeah, it didn't be, you know, because it all goes through this evolution.
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:02.359
A young athlete at one point needs to go, right?
00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:04.200
No, come on, you've got to sort your crap out.
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:11.240
Time to get a little bit serious, but it just ebbs and flows, and it's like I need to apply some lightness, some looseness physically.
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:23.879
I remember a lot of the time that first year, those formative years that you spoke about Tarek, was there was a sort of rigidity to how he carried himself, even in meeting new people and people that were from his world, sponsors, anything like that.
00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:27.240
And then you just saw it evolve completely looseness to it.
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.480
And now people speak about his maturity, and four world championships helped that.
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:38.119
But even prior to that, before he had the four, when he was kind of having the one, there was a real clarity from the outside that I heard from Max.
00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:41.240
I'm not right in there in that sort of inner circle anymore at all.
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.759
But from the snippets that I saw, I was just like, yeah, fair play.
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.839
There was a real sort of essential simpleness to his messages that he delivered.
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:57.000
Sometimes me would love it, he likened to Kimmy that he'd give like one word or two word answers, but it's just no fluff, there's no elaboration, unnecessary amounts.
00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.000
That was that switch, that joyful side.
00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:01.640
Where can we make it fun and joyful?
00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:08.200
So it sharpens your axe and it's recognizing that you're not pratting about, you're not being an idiot, but you're uncovering something else here.
00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:10.680
Well, it's really horses for courses, isn't it?
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:16.119
It's really about being innovative and responsive to the human being in front of you.
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:24.039
And what you said was Max had the seriousness in spades, he had the attitude, all that was on board, right?
00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:28.680
But what was missing for him was the joy, the playfulness, the gamifying.
00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:38.039
And that made him a more relatable, affable, connected driver with his team, which is essential in high things to be connected with the team, you know?
00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:38.359
Yeah.
00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:43.480
To be able to communicate about the tough stuff and have those difficult conversations.
00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:49.400
I know you and I had many conversations about how do I have these really difficult conversations, right?
00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:54.279
Without getting them offside and indeed being able to turn them onside through the conversation.
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:55.079
That's not easy.
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:56.599
Which brings me to leadership.
00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:02.200
You are into mindset, leadership, that kind of thing from a corporate perspective.
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:05.079
You've got a good few guys that work with you.
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:06.279
I've worked with one of them.
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:08.039
He's an excellent human being.
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:21.640
And indeed, he used your ethos with a driver who wasn't angry enough and got him down and wrestled him on the floor and got him into headlocks and things to get him pissed off, to get him ready for what was the drive of his life.
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:24.680
He was unlocking in this using the same innovative strategy.
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:36.039
So clearly, you've been able to teach these guys coming up through the field that you then go place in these positions, you've been able to teach them this way of seeing the world, which I find uber impressive.
00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:37.079
Great leadership.
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:42.599
So tell us about leadership, tell us about how that links to what you're doing now in the corporate world.
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:53.640
How are you using all of these realizations, all of these learnings within your organization today in the UK to really help organizations flourish?
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:55.079
That's kind, Jay, as well.
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:59.319
And I appreciate that, you know, helping that you've experienced good people I've put in with.
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:06.359
And firstly, just on that side, in terms of, well, you know, I do less traveling now and I don't go to the race anymore.
00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:08.759
So you go first, coaching and frame.
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:09.960
So it's like, right.
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.400
I was set up as a limited company, mainly just for who I was owned before.
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:19.400
But then it was really when once I stopped doing the F1, I was like, okay, now I need to function as a company.
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:28.039
So Force and Grace and the name would come into, but we've already sort of touched on what force and grace is this dance between two moments and appliance.
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:31.400
Was right, force and grace is the ecosystem.
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:33.079
But originally it's just me.
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:38.759
So drivers apparently come, they go, Oh, we want you to do be on track with so-and-so, we need you to do this, and we want you to do that.
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:39.400
Okay, great.
00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:42.039
I needed to say you've got so and so instead.
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:50.519
And they've spent time with me, they've learned what we believe is critical and different in helping drivers on the track and lessons it can learn with putting in front of people.
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.799
That takes a bit of time to develop that authority and trust.
00:26:53.960 --> 00:27:03.720
And then, as it's lent itself in the corporate world, I've had similar feedback to one of our coaches, Harry Mann, who's with now with Isaac Hadjar at Red Bull.
00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.240
He spent two and a half, three years with me working with various drivers in the gym.
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:16.359
Our main corporate client, chairman of that company, said a similar thing that the head of Red Bull Performance said to me was that just like Harry's, he gets it, right?
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:17.720
That you've got good people around you.
00:27:17.879 --> 00:27:21.079
He goes, Whatever you do, don't lose Harry, and don't lose this guy.
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:31.480
He goes, because getting the right people around you is one of the critical, critical teamship and leading lessons that the executives need, and it's a constant cycle.
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.559
And so I had a chairman of this investment firm say to me, keep hold of this guy.
00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:38.759
And it's very rare that you come across people that just get it.
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:41.000
And as we spoke about, what is that metric?
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:43.960
If they just get it, or what is it like just being in the right purpose?
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:45.559
I'd love to be able to put a metric on that.
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.240
Sometimes I wrestle with going, don't worry about it, just take that as good enough.
00:27:49.480 --> 00:28:03.640
So that's a pleasing point, and we continue to do that now that develop young coaches to work in F1 and work with F1 drivers and be seen as an authority for teams currently to say we need force and race coaches because they get it.
00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:06.519
How that's transpired is into the executive space.
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:19.480
I think in the corporate world, firstly, the stories that you can tell from F1, the stories from high performance sport initially generate momentum within a leadership team and a small full firm because they're generally quite exciting and they're point of difference.
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.240
But our point was that okay, well, what's our strong suit initially?
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:35.160
I'm learning the corporate landscape a little bit more, still count myself absolutely green in terms of really understanding problems that are slid across the desk of executives and C-suite leadership.
00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:38.680
But what I do know is that, right, how do we start to get influenced in here?
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:46.680
So you can use the playbook that we used in F1 and across the paddock, but not from just from driver's point of view, from the wider team.
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:54.279
The wider team in F1 are expected to perform as world-class operators, but in a very not ideal situation.
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:58.680
And it's one of our sort of cheesy hook lines, but it is at force and grace.
00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:04.920
We want to coach you to be your best when the situation can be at its worst, because that's actually often when it really matters.
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:08.599
And I sort of garnish that line from the early years with Max.
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:13.559
In the early years when the car was underperforming, team was in a bit of a dip, that period of dominance again.
00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:25.879
Everything was compared to the Seb Vettel era, and looking back, team spirit, and you know, I had conversations with some head people in Red Bull like, if you could just get Max to do this, you know, because Seb used to do this, and it really like boosts the team's spirit.
00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:30.920
Now, team spirit is easy to come by when you're winning multiple championships, as it should be.
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:47.160
But the real test of it is when you're not winning world championships, and people start to look around, and that's what we apply to we sort of say we're teams, the agents of team spirit in the corporate setting because people want it affords me that people look at F1 and go, as there's a high performance culture.
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:48.759
We want a high performance culture.
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.839
So I say, What's your understanding of a high performance culture as a first one?
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.559
Well, everyone's sort of energized, and there's an energy, there's a vitality within the team.
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:02.519
And that word vitality, first and foremost, go, well, we need to shake up and change a physiology.
00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:03.799
So that's our entry point.
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:13.559
And then, yeah, I have to lean on smarter people than me to bring in and start to have those conversations because we kind of work with smaller firms as well, sort of 10 to 25.
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.559
Rather, you know, I'm not sort of going into the city and trying to get hold of a massive corporation.
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.200
It doesn't quite fit because we want to be quite hands-on.
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:26.519
I use the analogy of a pit stop crew for your team, and you're kind of in there and looking at what's important to you.
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:31.559
And those firms are a little bit suffer the same fate, but I see a similar thing in sport teams, right?
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:39.240
There'll be motivational language, they'll have their values and their sort of you know standards, and there's these really cool phrases in there that are great.
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.480
And then it's just the sort of inquiry into it.
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:44.759
Our flows, two to three week inquiry, a 12-week sprint.
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:45.720
Can we make an impact?
00:30:45.879 --> 00:30:47.000
Can we see some engagement?
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:52.759
And then really the offer is to become a bit more of a long-term performance partner rather than a series of perks.
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:57.480
You know, we don't want to come in and say, try this, do this, and we'll see how you're getting on in six months.
00:30:57.559 --> 00:30:59.079
It's whose language is this?
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:01.000
Does everyone understand it?
00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:06.839
Or is it the head person's language and everyone's kind of getting on board, but doesn't mean anything from your side, Jay?
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:18.839
You taught me, you know, meaning drives performance, but it also simultaneously can drive the suffering or the apathy, which is a big one we experience more in our corporate teams and our corporate leadership as well.
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:20.039
And so, how do we negate that?
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:22.119
I hope I've touched on that question initially there, Jay.
00:31:23.879 --> 00:31:26.359
We've got a little bit more time, not much, but a little bit.
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:31.079
What's one insight about high performance that you think most teams overlook?
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:35.879
I think it's being really that intentional point and being super clear on what that is.
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:45.240
I think now we're just bombarded with what could be good and what should work, and looking over and seeing what other firms have done and what's kind of worked there.
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:48.119
And there's a bit of mimicry and flattery and all that sort of thing.
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.079
But I think stripping back is the hardest skill, actually.
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:52.839
And it's one you talk about go first.
00:31:53.079 --> 00:32:06.519
I've done various things, Force and Grace, but you know, we're trying to build a dashboard and we're trying to sort of become a central hub for both corporates, a little bit more on the racing side to help negate the impacts of a very siloed infrastructure that's often around a driver.
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:07.879
We want to be that central hub.
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:11.400
So you start putting things on and say, Oh, I should include this, it should include that as well.
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:13.720
And it would be great if it saw this and that would look good.
00:32:13.879 --> 00:32:19.480
Actually, it's kind of what can someone look at and just go, I get it, like I see where we're tracking.
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:24.359
So I think being able to strip back and be really intentional about where they're getting to.
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:29.720
You know, I've had some experience with corporate clients, where they want to get, and also where the the simple question is, where are we?
00:32:29.879 --> 00:32:31.400
Where are we getting to and what's stopping us?
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:33.319
Those three as a basis.
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:38.359
And yeah, they're simple questions with complex answers, and it's being very clear on that.
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:39.720
Yeah, you know, what stops us?
00:32:39.879 --> 00:32:41.000
We just don't think about it.
00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:47.960
We tend to be in high performance in team environments, we tend to be optimistic, we don't look at like what's holding us back here.
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:51.240
So what's stopping us from getting where we are to where we want to go?
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:51.960
So Terry.
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:58.920
Yeah, one thing that's really struck me and stood out for me, and perhaps the listeners too, Jake, is that performance in the moment aspect.
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.319
And I think that we've touched on metrics and always being quantifiable, perhaps.
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:09.160
And but what we've discussed here to this point, it sort of includes and transcends that through things like enjoyment.
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.559
How do you tap into that with intentionality?
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:18.359
And I think that's the key bridge to performance in the moment is that intentionality, is that pivot point for coaches.
00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:21.400
So that for me has been really a bold takeaway.
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:22.920
Um, you sharing those pearls.
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:25.319
And I think it's that in the moment is nice.
00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:30.519
I do get thrown back there to my schoolboy days of actually like that's all it was.
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.720
That was it was this moment that lit a spark that thought I've just got to experience that more.
00:33:35.879 --> 00:33:38.680
And now that's evolved and changed and grown, it's it's longer.
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:47.160
But yeah, understanding that performance in the moment is important and kind of recognising that difference between that long-term game and the short-term game has been good.
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:52.279
One more question, and you know, one of my favorite sayings, Jake, is the difference that makes the difference.
00:33:52.440 --> 00:34:05.879
Yeah, given everything that you've seen coming from being a rugby player, being a coach in rugby, you know, moving into the elite levels of rugby where you're in the super level of Australia rugby over in the UK, hugely prestigious.
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:12.760
Then moving into the highest level of motor racing with who was to become a world champion, and you were part of that.
00:34:13.240 --> 00:34:22.680
From all of that experience, what ultimately makes the difference between good performance in a nutshell and exceptional ones like Max for Stan?
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:34.040
I think really, because what I've seen on the race weekends and what I've seen and what I experienced now in my coaching conversations with you know executives is that energy point and energy flows where the attention goes.
00:34:34.120 --> 00:34:41.000
I've often used or I've coined Mark Manson's big best sort of seller book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving, you know, a Who.
00:34:41.240 --> 00:34:44.280
And it's actually, in the moment, it's best performers.
00:34:44.680 --> 00:34:50.920
One of our marketing materials, I say the best actually are the our masters at allocating their resources, physical and mental.
00:34:51.240 --> 00:35:02.520
Change that to that is where the best know where to allocate what they give a shit about and what pulls them versus what where they can just stay so sure and so knowing.
00:35:02.680 --> 00:35:04.520
I'm a keen, terrible golfer.
00:35:04.600 --> 00:35:10.200
So I watched uh Rory McElroy masterpiece documentary on uh on Amazon Prime, watched that one night.
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:15.080
In the opening exchange to that, they've kind of used in this old interview footage of McElroy on one of his early shows.
00:35:15.160 --> 00:35:21.720
I think when he won his first two majors very quickly, and they were like, you know, this guy's saying the guy asked him exactly that question, Jay.
00:35:22.120 --> 00:35:25.560
What is it that makes separates the best from the very, very best?
00:35:25.720 --> 00:35:32.920
And uh question that kind of I think encapsulates knowing what to really care about and being okay with just leaving the rest.
00:35:33.080 --> 00:35:39.400
Whereas we, in the general sense, the wider world, are so concerned now because of environmental factors of what we do.
00:35:39.560 --> 00:35:44.920
My posting challenge, Jay, in September, where I posted every day for a bit to get over my hashtag was nobody cares.
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:46.680
No one gives a shit as much as what I was thinking.
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:47.720
So just do away with it.
00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:50.520
And McElroy said in this interview to question, what makes the best messy?
00:35:50.680 --> 00:35:51.640
He goes, I think it's belief.
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:53.160
Then he very quickly hit him.
00:35:53.240 --> 00:35:54.600
He was like, No, it's not belief.
00:35:54.680 --> 00:35:55.880
He goes, It's knowing.
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:56.920
I know I'm gonna win.
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.440
And I paused it and I rerund it and I send it to a driver and his parents actually, because we'd been having a chat about belief.
00:36:02.520 --> 00:36:04.680
And it's like, you know, you just gotta really believe in yourself.
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:13.160
And I remember phrases and work we've done on belief, Jay, that I've done on myself is actually, yeah, belief's good to a point, and then you've got to go beyond belief.
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:14.760
What's the inquiry beyond belief?
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:22.520
And McElroy, a young McElroy at the time there, and maybe along his way, he forgot that actually I've got to keep believing myself.
00:36:22.600 --> 00:36:29.560
You don't have to actually, you just know that believing is grounded, like we say, and I know one of the questions we prep was books and things that I've found useful.
00:36:29.720 --> 00:36:36.280
And there's a book you recommended to me, Jay, which we recommend to all our people we work with now, Timothy Galway's In a Game of Tennis.
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:40.520
I subsequently read his In a Game of Golf, trying to think that could help me get my handicap down.
00:36:40.680 --> 00:36:43.240
I'm still shit, so I don't know if maybe I'm just not a learner.
00:36:43.720 --> 00:36:49.160
But it was trying, and I think sort of McElroy Fanny Seaman, and with a lot of people say, stop trying so much.
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:51.240
Trying is grounded in self-doubt.
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:56.680
And I think belief is ultimately grounded in a doubt, a doubt frequency.
00:36:56.920 --> 00:37:01.800
So needing to prove yourself, needing to believe is not as efficient from an energy perspective.
00:37:02.040 --> 00:37:04.760
Well, it presupposes you don't already believe.
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.960
If you need to believe, then the belief's not there.
00:37:08.040 --> 00:37:09.480
You need to create it, right?
00:37:09.560 --> 00:37:11.960
And so you're actually reinforcing the opposite.
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:26.680
So what I would call the difference that makes a difference from you is intentional discernment, discerning and looking at the differences that make the difference opens up to realizing, you know, when I engage in that difference, I know.
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:30.280
And it's a knowing that's all from the head belief down into the gut.
00:37:30.520 --> 00:37:31.880
I know all these things.
00:37:32.120 --> 00:37:33.240
Like you listen to Max.
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:38.360
I know that if I break late, throttle off around the corner, I will win.
00:37:38.520 --> 00:37:39.880
And you see him do it, right?
00:37:40.040 --> 00:37:42.600
He's still, in my view, the best driver on the group.
00:37:42.680 --> 00:37:42.920
He does.
00:37:43.080 --> 00:37:47.000
We talk about building up the movies, building up the references of what just do when you're at your best.
00:37:47.080 --> 00:37:47.720
I was free.
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:49.800
I'm just playing with this abandonment.
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:55.160
So that discernment of like not giving a shit is in a really healthy, positive, constructive way.
00:37:55.240 --> 00:37:58.920
It's not being a arsehole and walking around not giving a shit.
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.120
It's just being able to just be like free of that.
00:38:02.200 --> 00:38:11.160
And whether you're a Formula One World Champion, whether you're a PT, in given a that healthy abandonment is freedom in the moment, I think, and it also serves long term.
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:11.560
That's it.
00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:13.400
It's a sense of aliveness in the moment.
00:38:13.560 --> 00:38:16.520
Me, Jay and I appreciate your sharings, and I'm sure the listeners do as well.
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:21.720
For those listeners who want to follow up or reach out to you, what's the best platform?
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.520
LinkedIn, I'm Jake Alakra, just my name on there.
00:38:24.600 --> 00:38:27.400
And Instagram is just at Jake Alakra.
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:28.120
That's my personal page.
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:32.440
Force and Grace also has a page, but that's the best place for them certainly to reach out to.
00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:34.600
We'll have more in the show notes too for the listeners.
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:35.560
Mate, thank you.
00:38:35.720 --> 00:38:38.440
It's been insightful from my perspective.
00:38:38.600 --> 00:38:50.600
And it's, I think, from the listeners' perspective, insightful to see that these kind of left-of-field ideas and understandings actually make a difference at the highest level.
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:54.200
And I'm loving your sharing and loving having this conversation.
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:55.160
Thanks very much, Joe.
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:55.720
Thanks very much.
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:57.000
Tarek, appreciate having me on.
00:38:57.240 --> 00:38:59.240
Jay, pleasure as always, and thanks, guys.
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:00.280
Enjoyed it.