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Oh, well, move more, learn more community.
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We're so thrilled that you're here with us today.
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We're talking with a wonderful, wonderful clinician, Dr.
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Siobhan Flowers.
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She is a licensed psychotherapist and she's a wellness consultant.
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She's an adjunct professor and she was also a public school teacher.
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And her specialty, it's pretty broad, Dr.
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Flowers, but generally what you're doing is blending neuroscience, business psychology, and emotional intelligence to help educators have a value-based perspective, values-based perspective that really maintains their health, integrity, and wellness.
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Absolutely.
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Ah, it's just wonderful.
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So tell us a little, you've had a really fascinating career.
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Tell us first a little bit about you, where you're from, and what kinds of interesting things you do.
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Yeah.
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So as you said, I'm a licensed mental health therapist and my private practice is based out of Dallas, Texas.
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And if you know anything about the mental health space, we professionally are kind of limited in terms of only being allowed to practice where our licenses are.
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And so for me, you know, it kind of limited me.
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Fortunately, Texas is a really big state, but I wanted to have a larger impact.
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And so I've been in private practice now for about 10 years, which is a long time in terms of the individual one-on-one therapy work.
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And so I thought about what would it look like to have like a larger impact.
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And so that's kind of what led me to the coaching and the consulting.
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And so as you mentioned, working with individual consultants, even organizations on a combination of all of those things you described.
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But prior to that, before I kind of dove headfirst into the mental health field, I previously was working as a high school counselor.
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So in the K-12 kind of school environment.
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And even prior to that, as you said, teaching seventh grade English for many years.
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And so education, mental health, it just was like a natural intersection for me.
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And of course, being in private practice so long, being full-time, self-employed, my business is an S-corp, like just having that entrepreneurial background as well.
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This just gave me a way to kind of bring all of those things together.
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And so it kind of leads me to the types of work that I'm doing now.
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Can you give us an example without breaking confidentiality?
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What would be an example of a type of contract you would be consulting on?
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Yes.
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So it depends primarily organizations and whether that's corporations.
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I've had contracts with like government entities, nonprofits, but really focused on leadership wellness.
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And so in today's day and times, I do a lot of work with organizations on like culture building in terms of navigating uncertainty, uh strengthening trust within organizations, improving communication, a lot of like trauma-informed leadership best practices.
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So anything under the umbrella of leadership wellness, what it takes to build psychological safety within organizations and maintain emotional wellness.
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Very interesting.
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I think that one of Mike's books would appeal to you.
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And the topic of it, it's about leadership, educational leadership.
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And maybe we can ask to get a copy sent to you.
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Now, where did I learn about you?
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I learned about you from Dr.
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Erica.
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Dr.
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Erica Jordan Thomas, who is a powerhouse.
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And I thought her training was so good and so interesting, and her book is so well written.
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And when you were speaking that day, you were talking about reframing fear, understanding that fear can be beneficial, but it also has to be rational.
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And then you were talking about the power of having values, having your true north, which I talk with children all the time about.
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So can you tell us a little bit about what your philosophy is?
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And then we can talk about how to apply it.
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Sure, yeah.
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So definitely when you talk about leadership wellness, I believe values are so foundational to that conversation.
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And so for me, just the benefits of having your values as you did kind of like as that compass, as that North Star, when you identify and you're able to operate from your core values, it's like everything else just kind of naturally falls into place because, you know, having your values and all of those things at the center, it really ensures that your wellness goals, your behaviors that you need to achieve those goals, again, are all in alignment.
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And it's really, to me, what keeps you grounded.
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It's what keeps you happy and inspired, despite the chaos that may exist around you.
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It's like we all need something that can anchor us and have us cultivate an inner sense of safety.
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And to me, that's so aligned to values.
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So it keeps you focused on what's most important and it really allows you to focus on what's within your control.
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And so being able to identify core values, again, is foundational to all of that.
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How does one identify what their core values are?
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Yeah, so good question.
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So you may have kind of heard the general phrase in terms of like people, if you do an audit of like where you spend your time or what you spend your money on, like that could be a clue.
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But I think in a more general sense, it's like, what when do you feel your happiest, your most grounded?
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What are you typically doing?
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And so there's some resources that I can share for people that maybe they don't quite know what their values are.
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But and what I like about it is there's no right or wrong because it's so specific to the individual.
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And you could maybe have values that might seem like they're competing against one another.
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One of my values is ambition.
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One of my values is also joy and fun.
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And it's like, can those things coexist?
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Absolutely.
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They can go coexist.
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You can honor your humanity and your need for cognition and all of these things at the same time.
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And so it's really about tapping into what fuels you and that can give you an inkling in terms of where your values are aligned.
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You know, I'm very excited for your book to come out because I every year I train one cognitive science intern or one fellow, and I'm on my sixth one, and I we think that a neuropsychologist is come gonna come from Con France, and I'm gonna train her in my methods.
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She's taken my stuff before, but my whole point is that with my interns, I always teach them about being values-based and I help them.
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There's an act, I don't know if you use act acceptance communism therapy, but there's a concept that I drew a long time ago, five years ago, where I would say you have your core values and they are your reference points.
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So when you feel like your behavior, or maybe even your boss's behavior, is moving too far away from those core values, you give yourself permission to come back.
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And the example I use is that in the field of research, it's very cutthroat.
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And sometimes the scientists in the labs are really not very nice.
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And I have warned, I've got I've got a student now in medical school, I've got another one at Brown.
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I mean, they accomplish enormous things.
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They're successful before they come meet me, to be honest.
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I choose them very carefully.
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But my whole point is I say if you go into a lab and the head of the lab is not a nice person, you're leaving because you deserve better.
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Yes.
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So can you reflect on that a little bit?
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Like the lesson.
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So I'm hoping your book will have like really helpful information for you.
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Because the other thing I want to add here, and then I want to listen to you, is that for many of us, I've been licensed 32 years, and I've had to teach myself a lot of this.
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This was not taught in psychology school that you're allowed to stand up for yourself, you're allowed to have a voice, you can do so respectfully.
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Your fear and anger matter, their messages.
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No training at all on that.
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And I had to learn, you know, going through all my fellowships and all the things that I did.
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And I was like, wouldn't it have been better if I had come armed with that knowledge and I didn't have to self-teach?
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And so now I want to I want to hear from you on those things because it's very powerful.
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That's it.
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That almost like pre-permission, so to speak, is so important.
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It can kind of give you that armor and that, again, the freedom to be able to live in that aligned way versus you kind of learning along the way through your own lived experience.
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And then you wish you would have been empowered sooner, as you said.
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And so for me, I believe it's one of those things where you have to kind of know your values as you're talking about what's okay with you, what's not okay.
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To me, values and being able to set and reinforce boundaries goes hand in hand.
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And so again, when you think about how like this idea of advocating for yourself, standing up for yourself, you being able to say up front, like, again, if this doesn't feel right for me, I don't have to be around these people or in this environment.
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You have to be able to identify ahead of time what are your non-negotiables?
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And to me, that's also something that is values-based.
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If you don't, if you're not operating from a set of predetermined core values, it's hard to know what your non-negotiables are.
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And therefore, it's easier for other people or maybe, you know, systemically oppressive environments to take advantage of you because you're just accepting things as they come versus going in ahead of time, knowing that if this crosses a boundary, for me to be still values aligned, I have to be able to step away.
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So that's kind of how I view the connection there.
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I love it.
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How is this all related to managing burnout and stress?
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I mean, we see what's happening in education, right?
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Yes, yes, absolutely.
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So conversations around like stress, anxiety, burnout, and ironically, in the general public, those kind of are terms that people tend to use interchangeably, but we know that there are significant differences in those things.
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And so the way I view it, you know, stress in and of itself is not a bad thing.
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It really only becomes problematic when it kind of evolves into chronic stress, which again, unfortunately, the education system almost that has become the norm where educators have normalized the dysfunction of constantly living in that kind of activated, hyper-vigilant state.
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And so the chronic stress, because it continues to go on unaddressed, it then evolves into burnout.
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And so I typically define stress as the difference between what you're currently doing and what you want to be doing.
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And so the greater that gap is, the more stressed you might typically be, the less that gap is.
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It's like if you're, again, in your element doing what you want to do, chances are you're not going to be as stressed in that moment.
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And so for me, if you're truly living a values-based lifestyle, you're going to be very intentional about incorporating and integrating those activities that are really aligned with what you want to be doing.
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We all have things in life that we have to do, but we want to make sure that we also equally, if not more, incorporate those things that we want to do.
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And even better if they are just kind of naturally values-based.
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And so I feel like just even that type of alignment, you're less likely to either one, experience burnout, or if you do cross over, it gives you something to kind of draw from, to kind of reground yourself, to kind of turn yourself back to that healthy baseline.
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Because again, you've got that anchor, you've got that star that's kind of guiding you based on values.
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So it makes me think about some parents with whom I work.
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And, you know, when you have special needs children, it can be expensive, it can be time consuming, it can be very demanding.
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And especially when you come to Wellington Alexander, we are such an intensive transdisciplinary center that, you know, you're going to get five hours of treatment a day.
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And it makes me lead to a question related to your work.
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And that is, I encounter some, it's mostly men, but it could be women too.
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They are in work environments that they do not feel that they're honored, their values are not respected.
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Sometimes people really try to use them and take advantage of them, and they feel like they can't get out because of the expenses in life.
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And I wonder what what kinds of things do you say to somebody in that circumstance?
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Yeah.
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So one, just being able to kind of honor their feelings as being totally valid.
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You know, we do live in a capitalistic society.
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So unless you're just independently wealthy, we all have to consider the financial implications.
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And a lot of us, I believe it's referred to as like the golden handcuffs, you know, because we feel like we are trapped in an environment where in order to maintain a certain lifestyle, we have to put up with a lot of just unhealthy, kind of toxic behaviors because we can't necessarily, you know, afford to leave.
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We're kind of in too deep financially.
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And so I think just being able to acknowledge, like not to fully blame the individual for the predicament that they are in can be extremely validating and freeing.
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But then it is this idea of what is more so, even in an environment where you feel like so much is outside of your control, there are still things that are are within your control at the end of the day.
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So you might not be able to make and at least maybe up front the drastic moves like changing employment or doing something really big.
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But what are like those micro moments, the things that you can really incorporate just a little bit at a time each day that have a positive, like cumulative effect.
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And so we really start super small in terms of like what is the smallest thing that we can start to integrate into your day, into your week, into your month.
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And again, it's the idea is regaining back some of that sense of autonomy, you feeling like you've got some agency over your life is always a really good step for empowerment because you never know where that may lead.
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Hopefully, it ends up leading to a place where you are able to make kind of those major transitions that are more like proactive and preventative in nature.
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But I think when someone's in the thick of it, they're in that survival mode, they're reacting all of the time.
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It's really about just being able to kind of ground them in that moment, is often the first step.
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Wow.
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Just so powerful and useful and practical.
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We're coming to the end of our time.
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All of our podcasts are designed to be 20 minutes just because people are busy.
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And but I want to ask you first, please message me when your book comes out because I'm really serious.
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Like I'm gonna buy it for a handful of people.
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I love that thing.
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That's one thing.
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Yes.
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And two is are there any resources or programs or websites that you think that our colleagues in our community could benefit from knowing about?
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Yes.
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So in terms of our conversation about values, if someone is kind of stuck there, like, well, I don't know what my values are, it could just be a simple Google search.
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I know uh Brene Brown, for example, has a list of values as part of her Dare to Leap program.
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So a simple Google search for that will come up with just one or two full pages of just nothing but values.
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And so what I recommend people do with a list like that, circle anywhere from three to five values.
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And it doesn't have to be set in stone.
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It's just based on what you're feeling in that moment.
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Think about, identify what those values are, really think about what are the beliefs around those values, what are the specific activities that are like in alignment with those values, incorporate, create a plan to incorporate those into your life.
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And so that's one resource and kind of a snippet about how I recommend you use a resource like that.
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My book, it's called, I already have the title, it's Wired to Win.
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And so again, it's just the science of being able to really achieve and maintain sustainable success.
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So it's not the typical like hustle culture where we're gonna grind our way to the top.
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It's from an inside out approach where you have to honor your humanity while still, again, tackling those things like fear and self-doubt and all the limiting beliefs and self-sabotaging, you know, behaviors.
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And so I will definitely keep you posted on, you know, when that book becomes available next year.
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But really, I feel like just being able to tap in, it doesn't have to always be like a huge vacation for us to be in alignment with our values.
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Even just a few minutes of time for self-reflection, kind of tapping into acknowledging what is it that you want, what is it that you need, even if it's just in this moment, asking that powerful question, what do I need in this moment?
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Even if you don't have the answer, sometimes the question is more important than the answer because it signals to your brain and your body that you're taking this moment because you're worthy, you're valuable enough to be able to check in with yourself and ask that valid question.
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And the answer might not immediately come, but don't stop asking the question because eventually you'll get to a point where your body's always trying trying to communicate that wisdom to you and you'll discover the answers.
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And that's part of your North Star.
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So that's part of the process to being able to identify that values-based mindset.
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So beautiful.
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You know, as you're sitting here, I'm seeing little like flags with names and people that you would love.
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Like, I bet you don't know Zach Bell.
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Zach Bell, we did a podcast with him.
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He is a somatic therapist.
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And even during our podcast, I changed so much from the beginning to the end.
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And I describe it in the podcast.
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He's wonderful.
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Andy Vassly, I think you would love Andy Vassley, and he's a physical education teacher who has been through many traumas and he has reshaped his whole life and his whole theory of how he does physical education.
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And so I'll think of some other people too.
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But what I'm really walking away with in this extraordinary interview is that we need to apply leadership and business concepts in everyday psychotherapy.
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Because the old model of doing therapy and just expecting the person to come up with their truth, it we don't have enough therapy times for that.
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I don't have 52 sessions with people anymore, like I did, you know, in Boston 35 years ago.
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I have maybe three to six sessions with somebody.
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And so I just love, in fact, I want to generate maybe some handouts related to your work and Dr.
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Jordan Thomas's work because I really think this stuff belongs in therapy.
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Yes, yes.
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The brief model, where again, like you said, just it's that being laser focused and really getting to the root in terms of how you show up as an individual, affects your environment, affects your ability to be able to, again, grow and manifest the life that you want.
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It is so needed.
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And again, we need those frameworks, those best practices, kind of being able to.
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I always kind of use the phrase, my work is an attempt to kind of systematize your mindset and develop processes around how to do that without years and years of that kind of in-depth, you know, traditional psychotherapy work.
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All right.
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Well, thank you so much for joining us.
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This is so fascinating.
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And you can get Dr.
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Jordan Thomas's book, you can get Dr.
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Flower's book in 2027, you can get all my new stuff that's getting published in 2027.
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I really appreciate you taking the time.
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I knew from the the course that I took with you that you were just gonna have really bright, really useful practical things to tell our community.
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:51.519
So thank you.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.839
Well, I appreciate the invitation.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:54.960
Thank you so much.
00:00:06.959 --> 00:00:09.119
Oh, well, move more, learn more community.
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:11.599
We're so thrilled that you're here with us today.
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We're talking with a wonderful, wonderful clinician, Dr.
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Siobhan Flowers.
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She is a licensed psychotherapist and she's a wellness consultant.
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She's an adjunct professor and she was also a public school teacher.
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And her specialty, it's pretty broad, Dr.
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Flowers, but generally what you're doing is blending neuroscience, business psychology, and emotional intelligence to help educators have a value-based perspective, values-based perspective that really maintains their health, integrity, and wellness.
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Absolutely.
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Ah, it's just wonderful.
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So tell us a little, you've had a really fascinating career.
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Tell us first a little bit about you, where you're from, and what kinds of interesting things you do.
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Yeah.
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So as you said, I'm a licensed mental health therapist and my private practice is based out of Dallas, Texas.
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And if you know anything about the mental health space, we professionally are kind of limited in terms of only being allowed to practice where our licenses are.
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And so for me, you know, it kind of limited me.
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Fortunately, Texas is a really big state, but I wanted to have a larger impact.
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And so I've been in private practice now for about 10 years, which is a long time in terms of the individual one-on-one therapy work.
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And so I thought about what would it look like to have like a larger impact.
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And so that's kind of what led me to the coaching and the consulting.
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And so as you mentioned, working with individual consultants, even organizations on a combination of all of those things you described.
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But prior to that, before I kind of dove headfirst into the mental health field, I previously was working as a high school counselor.
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So in the K-12 kind of school environment.
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And even prior to that, as you said, teaching seventh grade English for many years.
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And so education, mental health, it just was like a natural intersection for me.
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And of course, being in private practice so long, being full-time, self-employed, my business is an S-corp, like just having that entrepreneurial background as well.
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This just gave me a way to kind of bring all of those things together.
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And so it kind of leads me to the types of work that I'm doing now.
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Can you give us an example without breaking confidentiality?
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What would be an example of a type of contract you would be consulting on?
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Yes.
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So it depends primarily organizations and whether that's corporations.
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I've had contracts with like government entities, nonprofits, but really focused on leadership wellness.
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And so in today's day and times, I do a lot of work with organizations on like culture building in terms of navigating uncertainty, uh strengthening trust within organizations, improving communication, a lot of like trauma-informed leadership best practices.
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So anything under the umbrella of leadership wellness, what it takes to build psychological safety within organizations and maintain emotional wellness.
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Very interesting.
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I think that one of Mike's books would appeal to you.
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And the topic of it, it's about leadership, educational leadership.
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And maybe we can ask to get a copy sent to you.
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Now, where did I learn about you?
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I learned about you from Dr.
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Erica.
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Dr.
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Erica Jordan Thomas, who is a powerhouse.
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And I thought her training was so good and so interesting, and her book is so well written.
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And when you were speaking that day, you were talking about reframing fear, understanding that fear can be beneficial, but it also has to be rational.
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And then you were talking about the power of having values, having your true north, which I talk with children all the time about.
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So can you tell us a little bit about what your philosophy is?
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And then we can talk about how to apply it.
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Sure, yeah.
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So definitely when you talk about leadership wellness, I believe values are so foundational to that conversation.
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And so for me, just the benefits of having your values as you did kind of like as that compass, as that North Star, when you identify and you're able to operate from your core values, it's like everything else just kind of naturally falls into place because, you know, having your values and all of those things at the center, it really ensures that your wellness goals, your behaviors that you need to achieve those goals, again, are all in alignment.
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And it's really, to me, what keeps you grounded.
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It's what keeps you happy and inspired, despite the chaos that may exist around you.
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It's like we all need something that can anchor us and have us cultivate an inner sense of safety.
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And to me, that's so aligned to values.
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So it keeps you focused on what's most important and it really allows you to focus on what's within your control.
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And so being able to identify core values, again, is foundational to all of that.
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How does one identify what their core values are?
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Yeah, so good question.
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So you may have kind of heard the general phrase in terms of like people, if you do an audit of like where you spend your time or what you spend your money on, like that could be a clue.
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But I think in a more general sense, it's like, what when do you feel your happiest, your most grounded?
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What are you typically doing?
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And so there's some resources that I can share for people that maybe they don't quite know what their values are.
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But and what I like about it is there's no right or wrong because it's so specific to the individual.
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And you could maybe have values that might seem like they're competing against one another.
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One of my values is ambition.
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One of my values is also joy and fun.
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And it's like, can those things coexist?
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Absolutely.
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They can go coexist.
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You can honor your humanity and your need for cognition and all of these things at the same time.
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And so it's really about tapping into what fuels you and that can give you an inkling in terms of where your values are aligned.
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:20.079
You know, I'm very excited for your book to come out because I every year I train one cognitive science intern or one fellow, and I'm on my sixth one, and I we think that a neuropsychologist is come gonna come from Con France, and I'm gonna train her in my methods.
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She's taken my stuff before, but my whole point is that with my interns, I always teach them about being values-based and I help them.
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There's an act, I don't know if you use act acceptance communism therapy, but there's a concept that I drew a long time ago, five years ago, where I would say you have your core values and they are your reference points.
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So when you feel like your behavior, or maybe even your boss's behavior, is moving too far away from those core values, you give yourself permission to come back.
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And the example I use is that in the field of research, it's very cutthroat.
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And sometimes the scientists in the labs are really not very nice.
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And I have warned, I've got I've got a student now in medical school, I've got another one at Brown.
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I mean, they accomplish enormous things.
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They're successful before they come meet me, to be honest.
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I choose them very carefully.
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But my whole point is I say if you go into a lab and the head of the lab is not a nice person, you're leaving because you deserve better.
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Yes.
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So can you reflect on that a little bit?
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Like the lesson.
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So I'm hoping your book will have like really helpful information for you.
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Because the other thing I want to add here, and then I want to listen to you, is that for many of us, I've been licensed 32 years, and I've had to teach myself a lot of this.
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This was not taught in psychology school that you're allowed to stand up for yourself, you're allowed to have a voice, you can do so respectfully.
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Your fear and anger matter, their messages.
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No training at all on that.
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And I had to learn, you know, going through all my fellowships and all the things that I did.
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And I was like, wouldn't it have been better if I had come armed with that knowledge and I didn't have to self-teach?
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And so now I want to I want to hear from you on those things because it's very powerful.
00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:08.319
That's it.
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That almost like pre-permission, so to speak, is so important.
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It can kind of give you that armor and that, again, the freedom to be able to live in that aligned way versus you kind of learning along the way through your own lived experience.
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And then you wish you would have been empowered sooner, as you said.
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And so for me, I believe it's one of those things where you have to kind of know your values as you're talking about what's okay with you, what's not okay.
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To me, values and being able to set and reinforce boundaries goes hand in hand.
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And so again, when you think about how like this idea of advocating for yourself, standing up for yourself, you being able to say up front, like, again, if this doesn't feel right for me, I don't have to be around these people or in this environment.
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You have to be able to identify ahead of time what are your non-negotiables?
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And to me, that's also something that is values-based.
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If you don't, if you're not operating from a set of predetermined core values, it's hard to know what your non-negotiables are.
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And therefore, it's easier for other people or maybe, you know, systemically oppressive environments to take advantage of you because you're just accepting things as they come versus going in ahead of time, knowing that if this crosses a boundary, for me to be still values aligned, I have to be able to step away.
00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.159
So that's kind of how I view the connection there.
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I love it.
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How is this all related to managing burnout and stress?
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I mean, we see what's happening in education, right?
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Yes, yes, absolutely.
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So conversations around like stress, anxiety, burnout, and ironically, in the general public, those kind of are terms that people tend to use interchangeably, but we know that there are significant differences in those things.
00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:08.000
And so the way I view it, you know, stress in and of itself is not a bad thing.
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:27.919
It really only becomes problematic when it kind of evolves into chronic stress, which again, unfortunately, the education system almost that has become the norm where educators have normalized the dysfunction of constantly living in that kind of activated, hyper-vigilant state.
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And so the chronic stress, because it continues to go on unaddressed, it then evolves into burnout.
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And so I typically define stress as the difference between what you're currently doing and what you want to be doing.
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And so the greater that gap is, the more stressed you might typically be, the less that gap is.
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It's like if you're, again, in your element doing what you want to do, chances are you're not going to be as stressed in that moment.
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And so for me, if you're truly living a values-based lifestyle, you're going to be very intentional about incorporating and integrating those activities that are really aligned with what you want to be doing.
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We all have things in life that we have to do, but we want to make sure that we also equally, if not more, incorporate those things that we want to do.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:21.759
And even better if they are just kind of naturally values-based.
00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:39.039
And so I feel like just even that type of alignment, you're less likely to either one, experience burnout, or if you do cross over, it gives you something to kind of draw from, to kind of reground yourself, to kind of turn yourself back to that healthy baseline.
00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.919
Because again, you've got that anchor, you've got that star that's kind of guiding you based on values.
00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:48.480
So it makes me think about some parents with whom I work.
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And, you know, when you have special needs children, it can be expensive, it can be time consuming, it can be very demanding.
00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:04.000
And especially when you come to Wellington Alexander, we are such an intensive transdisciplinary center that, you know, you're going to get five hours of treatment a day.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:07.440
And it makes me lead to a question related to your work.
00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.679
And that is, I encounter some, it's mostly men, but it could be women too.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:18.799
They are in work environments that they do not feel that they're honored, their values are not respected.
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Sometimes people really try to use them and take advantage of them, and they feel like they can't get out because of the expenses in life.
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.039
And I wonder what what kinds of things do you say to somebody in that circumstance?
00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:33.679
Yeah.
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:39.360
So one, just being able to kind of honor their feelings as being totally valid.
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:42.000
You know, we do live in a capitalistic society.
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:47.039
So unless you're just independently wealthy, we all have to consider the financial implications.
00:12:47.120 --> 00:13:03.200
And a lot of us, I believe it's referred to as like the golden handcuffs, you know, because we feel like we are trapped in an environment where in order to maintain a certain lifestyle, we have to put up with a lot of just unhealthy, kind of toxic behaviors because we can't necessarily, you know, afford to leave.
00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.440
We're kind of in too deep financially.
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:16.159
And so I think just being able to acknowledge, like not to fully blame the individual for the predicament that they are in can be extremely validating and freeing.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:26.960
But then it is this idea of what is more so, even in an environment where you feel like so much is outside of your control, there are still things that are are within your control at the end of the day.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:34.399
So you might not be able to make and at least maybe up front the drastic moves like changing employment or doing something really big.
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:44.000
But what are like those micro moments, the things that you can really incorporate just a little bit at a time each day that have a positive, like cumulative effect.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:53.679
And so we really start super small in terms of like what is the smallest thing that we can start to integrate into your day, into your week, into your month.
00:13:53.919 --> 00:14:06.720
And again, it's the idea is regaining back some of that sense of autonomy, you feeling like you've got some agency over your life is always a really good step for empowerment because you never know where that may lead.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:15.759
Hopefully, it ends up leading to a place where you are able to make kind of those major transitions that are more like proactive and preventative in nature.
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:22.080
But I think when someone's in the thick of it, they're in that survival mode, they're reacting all of the time.
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:27.120
It's really about just being able to kind of ground them in that moment, is often the first step.
00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:28.080
Wow.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.440
Just so powerful and useful and practical.
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:33.440
We're coming to the end of our time.
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.679
All of our podcasts are designed to be 20 minutes just because people are busy.
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:44.080
And but I want to ask you first, please message me when your book comes out because I'm really serious.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:46.000
Like I'm gonna buy it for a handful of people.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:46.879
I love that thing.
00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:47.679
That's one thing.
00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:48.159
Yes.
00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:56.159
And two is are there any resources or programs or websites that you think that our colleagues in our community could benefit from knowing about?
00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:57.039
Yes.
00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:07.200
So in terms of our conversation about values, if someone is kind of stuck there, like, well, I don't know what my values are, it could just be a simple Google search.
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:13.120
I know uh Brene Brown, for example, has a list of values as part of her Dare to Leap program.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:19.600
So a simple Google search for that will come up with just one or two full pages of just nothing but values.
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:26.320
And so what I recommend people do with a list like that, circle anywhere from three to five values.
00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:28.639
And it doesn't have to be set in stone.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.840
It's just based on what you're feeling in that moment.
00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:46.320
Think about, identify what those values are, really think about what are the beliefs around those values, what are the specific activities that are like in alignment with those values, incorporate, create a plan to incorporate those into your life.
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:52.720
And so that's one resource and kind of a snippet about how I recommend you use a resource like that.
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.399
My book, it's called, I already have the title, it's Wired to Win.
00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:03.039
And so again, it's just the science of being able to really achieve and maintain sustainable success.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:08.080
So it's not the typical like hustle culture where we're gonna grind our way to the top.
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:20.080
It's from an inside out approach where you have to honor your humanity while still, again, tackling those things like fear and self-doubt and all the limiting beliefs and self-sabotaging, you know, behaviors.
00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:24.879
And so I will definitely keep you posted on, you know, when that book becomes available next year.
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:35.200
But really, I feel like just being able to tap in, it doesn't have to always be like a huge vacation for us to be in alignment with our values.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:51.120
Even just a few minutes of time for self-reflection, kind of tapping into acknowledging what is it that you want, what is it that you need, even if it's just in this moment, asking that powerful question, what do I need in this moment?
00:16:52.080 --> 00:17:07.440
Even if you don't have the answer, sometimes the question is more important than the answer because it signals to your brain and your body that you're taking this moment because you're worthy, you're valuable enough to be able to check in with yourself and ask that valid question.
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:20.000
And the answer might not immediately come, but don't stop asking the question because eventually you'll get to a point where your body's always trying trying to communicate that wisdom to you and you'll discover the answers.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.000
And that's part of your North Star.
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:27.279
So that's part of the process to being able to identify that values-based mindset.
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:28.319
So beautiful.
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:35.359
You know, as you're sitting here, I'm seeing little like flags with names and people that you would love.
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.440
Like, I bet you don't know Zach Bell.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.920
Zach Bell, we did a podcast with him.
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.240
He is a somatic therapist.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:47.279
And even during our podcast, I changed so much from the beginning to the end.
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:48.799
And I describe it in the podcast.
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:50.000
He's wonderful.
00:17:50.400 --> 00:18:02.880
Andy Vassly, I think you would love Andy Vassley, and he's a physical education teacher who has been through many traumas and he has reshaped his whole life and his whole theory of how he does physical education.
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:05.359
And so I'll think of some other people too.
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:18.960
But what I'm really walking away with in this extraordinary interview is that we need to apply leadership and business concepts in everyday psychotherapy.
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:28.160
Because the old model of doing therapy and just expecting the person to come up with their truth, it we don't have enough therapy times for that.
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:34.880
I don't have 52 sessions with people anymore, like I did, you know, in Boston 35 years ago.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.559
I have maybe three to six sessions with somebody.
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:45.519
And so I just love, in fact, I want to generate maybe some handouts related to your work and Dr.
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:50.079
Jordan Thomas's work because I really think this stuff belongs in therapy.
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:52.000
Yes, yes.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:19:07.119
The brief model, where again, like you said, just it's that being laser focused and really getting to the root in terms of how you show up as an individual, affects your environment, affects your ability to be able to, again, grow and manifest the life that you want.
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:08.480
It is so needed.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:13.599
And again, we need those frameworks, those best practices, kind of being able to.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:27.920
I always kind of use the phrase, my work is an attempt to kind of systematize your mindset and develop processes around how to do that without years and years of that kind of in-depth, you know, traditional psychotherapy work.
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:28.640
All right.
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.359
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:32.799
This is so fascinating.
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:34.559
And you can get Dr.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:36.640
Jordan Thomas's book, you can get Dr.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:41.920
Flower's book in 2027, you can get all my new stuff that's getting published in 2027.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:43.920
I really appreciate you taking the time.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:50.799
I knew from the the course that I took with you that you were just gonna have really bright, really useful practical things to tell our community.
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:51.519
So thank you.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.839
Well, I appreciate the invitation.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:54.960
Thank you so much.
