Conversation with Terrence Curry — Architect | Maker | Educator | Priest: Life is Architecture — Desire, Discipline, and Craftsmanship Shape Beauty That Endures Through Authentic Living

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Hello everyone, welcome to my podcast, Life Designer.
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So, in today's episode, I'm so deeply honored to work on Terris Curry, an actor, educator, maker, and priest.
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Come to my podcast.
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Terry's work sits in the intersection of faith, craft, and human experience.
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He reminds us that the architecture is so transcendent the mere aesthetic or function into serving the people, nurturing the dignity, and creating spaces and foster the hope, reflection, and community.
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As a priest, Terris brings a very deeply human and spiritual lens to his work, exploring how spaces can elevate the human spirit.
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As an educator, he has taught architecture globally from Qing Kong University in China to delve in the Netherlands, inspiring the next generation of the designer architects to blend craft theory and ethics.
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He weighed in theology with architecture, emphasizing that the design is moral, ethical, even spiritual, and goes beyond just aesthetic or utilitary practice.
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As a maker and founder of the St.
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Joseph's studio workshop in Brooklyn, he runs a long prophesy compared to building health, diverse, and sustainable communities, breaking the hands of craft with the social impact.
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His work spans architectural design, urban planning, customer furniture, interior design, and community approaches, reflecting a real integration of the technical expertise, human-centered innovation, and creative intuition.
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Today, we will explore Terry's philosophy of learning by making, the importance of the craft, and how architecture can serve as the vessel for care, culture, and grace.
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A testament to the power of the design when it is aligned with human value, ethical responsibility, and spiritual insight.
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From teaching and research to design build studio and community projects, his life and work are a wavy illustration of the architecture as a means to enrich life and connect people with beauty, meaning, and purpose.
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So, welcome to my podcast, Teresa.
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I'm very happy to uh to meet you and to have the chance to talk with you today.
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I'm doing a lot of the research over the couple of the days since we connected in our social media platform now, right?
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Welcome to Red Little book.
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Yeah.
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That's very much on the train.
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Yeah, um, in this podcast, we kind of always turn the clock back to the very beginning of the story.
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Yeah, I believe like the project has its relevance and the story has its genesis.
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Yeah, so look at your life and professional trajectory.
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It is nothing short of expensive and expressive.
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Yeah, it's you know the word expensive.
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Yeah, so you doing so much resolving around design, architecture, and you teach uh architecture globally, and you also are maker, you know, craft person.
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You know, rarely had I said anyone who is the epitome, the pedal of the design, you know, like you are not just the designer, but also the maker.
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Yeah, so we're going to tap into all these intricate layers.
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So let's really trace back to the orange of everything.
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How did you discover your calling in architecture or in beauty in a more overarching sense or kind of gradually unfold to take into the shapes, you know, architecture?
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And yeah, how did they start and when did you first discover your calling in that in architecture?
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I can't remember um any time where I didn't like to make things.
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So I remember um my mother gave me this picture recently of me playing with a piece of string.
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I was a little boy, maybe two years old.
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And my mother said, Oh yes, if I gave you a piece of string, you would just play with it for so many hours and just making little designs with it.
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And then when I was around uh I think six or seven years old, uh my mother bought me my first power saw.
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And uh my father thought she was crazy because he was afraid I'd cut my fingers.
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But my grandfather, who was uh from Poland, uh he thought it was a great idea and uh he taught me how to use it.
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So uh I've been my I've been making and thinking about designing things uh since um since I can remember, I think.
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So the problem for me was not trying to discover uh my vocation or my calling, it was trying to find a way to use it, try to find my place in the world.
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How how can I use my my interests and my abilities uh and my enthusiasms in a meaningful way in the world?
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That was the biggest challenge for me.
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Yeah, it sounds like you are just very literally connected to your calling or you know, so to speak, you know, like sometimes it may take people like the life to try and discover that, you know, like trying to just really find a word that speaks to me in lately.
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Like in my case, it's take a decade of search, but you almost like just very literally and two years old boy, it's already start-making stuff.
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Yeah, I just have a fascination with how things work and things like that.
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Yeah, yeah, but then as I say, we all kind of face our own life tasks and the challenges.
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For you, it's about the applications of it, right?
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Yeah, so you know you are inheriting this.
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It's kind of the ability or aptitude.
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I think it's about the uh crafting, it's about making, but then how you can really translate it, you know, into like very tangible senses, right?
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So it's can make sense.
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So maybe we can building out upon that because you also, I think you are the missionary, right?
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You're doing all this something like that.
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Yeah, something like that.
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So, did you kind of like at a certain point of your life you found that there is kind of you know almost like intersections, you know, I can be being presshood, architecture, and the building and the education all together.
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So, yeah, how did that unfold?
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Because how can the people can carry on all this?
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But I think they're inherently linked in some way.
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I um I'm smiling a lot because I'm so impressed by how much you have, uh how much research you have done and how much you know.
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And also the way you are using the words is also very accurate and very precise.
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So, yeah, I I can um I'm happy to answer the and answer your question.
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It's a very personal.
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I don't know if your audience will be interested, but I can say first, I yes, I love to make things.
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And um, so I did not do very well in school.
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A lot of people are surprised to hear this, but I was not such a great student in school.
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Part of it is because I wasn't that great at uh I love to read, but I read very slow.
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I love to learn, but I learn in a different way.
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So back then they um now they call it um dyslexia, now they call it attention deficit syndrome.
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They have all these words for it.
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But back then they just called you stupid.
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Uh so um my brothers, my brothers and my sisters were very good at at school.
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They had really great memories and they could memorize things and they didn't have to work very hard.
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But I did.
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I had to work very hard to learn my lessons uh in uh when I was a when I was a child.
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It really wasn't until I think that I went to um Pratt, when I went to college, that's when I discovered that uh I'm pretty good at what I do, and also when I uh my academics uh went from average to really, really high because I found my place.
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I found a place where I belonged and a place where uh I could find other people who understood how I thought and appreciated what I did.
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Now, as a child, of course, my mother would buy me art supplies, and my grandfather is a great maker, and I always loved to spend time with him.
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He was a mechanic, he was from Poland, his uh he used to work not far from where I am right now.
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So um he's a great, great man and taught me everything uh and is a great teacher, but he also knew how to teach, and the way he taught was he would give me a problem and then leave me alone and then see if I was solving it, and then maybe say, uh try this and then leave me alone.
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Uh, because he knew that I wanted to try to think about how it works.
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And so in this way, um, he taught me how to teach also.
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Um, it's always good for a student to have a problem that they're trying to solve, and then uh they can learn a lot very, very fast.
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But if you're just uh trying to teach somebody theory or abstract ideas, it's uh for my brain, it's a little bit hard to apply it immediately.
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But as I was as I was studying architecture, I was reading a lot and I always liked philosophy, and I started to run into these questions about meaningfulness and what do I want to do with my life.
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Um it was in the the late 70s, it was the end of the Vietnam War, it was a lot of idealism.
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I grew up in a family that was uh culturally Catholic.
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It was very normal for us to be Catholic.
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Uh we went to church every Sunday and we celebrated all the big holidays, and uh I was in the church group, um, but a lot of the cool kids were in the church group.
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So it wasn't like these days.
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Sometimes if you somebody says that somebody says, Oh, I'm very involved with the church, you think, oh, there's something wrong with this person.
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But um no, it's very normal where I grew up.
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Um and so uh the church was a place where um I knew a lot of people, my social life was there, and they challenged me to think they did very critically.
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I had some very good friends who were priests and uh sisters and other religious people who were very smart, uh, did not accept simple answers to anything.
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And I was very fascinated by this.
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So when I was uh studying at Pratt, I remember sometimes I was sitting in my car in the uh parking lot at Pratt thinking, oh, what am I going to do with my life?
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What am I going to do with my life?
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Um do I want to go be an architect?
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Do I want to go be a carpenter?
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Do I want to get married?
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Do I want to have a family?
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What do I want to do?
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So while I was while I was at Pratt, I also did some volunteering.
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Um I was working at a school on the Lower East Side of Manhattan that was run by a group of priests called the Jesuits.
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And uh they're very cool guys.
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And they were like, Yeah, yeah, it would be great.
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We haven't had anybody to teach art in our school in so many years.
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Why don't you come?
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And so I went there and I got to know the students, and they had a summer camp, and I went up to the summer camp and they said, Hey, why don't you build us something?
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So I learned how to do design build uh with these students and raise some money.
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And little by little I felt like, wow, I really like these guys.
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They're very radical guys.
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These guys are very cool because like they have very high education, but they worked with the most poor people.
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And I was like, wow, it's so radical.
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Now, this guy's also like a Li Mao Do, very famous in China.
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Uh, in English, uh Italian, his name is by Teo Ricci.
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So he was uh very famous in China for working with what's his name?
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Guan Qi from uh Shanghai.
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Uh so Guangxi and Li Mao Do they work together to talk about science and they brought science to China.
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So this is also Jesuits, so I'm part of that same group.
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So it's a group that does a lot of um maybe things that you don't normally associate with church or with religious people.
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Uh so little by little I started to see that how I could find meaningful this in my life is to use my talent and my interest in a way that's going to help people and maybe help them to feel that they are special.
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So I start to have an idea, you know, if you accept that there's a God, I know a lot a lot of people don't accept that there's a God, and that's that's okay.
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It makes sense to me.
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But if it doesn't make sense to you, I'm not going to argue with you, please.
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I don't want to have an argument.
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So, but in my the from my understanding from the Old Testament, you know, that God, in the beginning, God creates the heavens and the earth.
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And there's an idea that God is, that humans are created in the image and likeness of God, that uh they call it in in um Greek, the Zelom and the Muth.
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So the image and the likeness.
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And so that means that there's characteristics of all humans that are similar to what is God.
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And one of that is that we are co-creator, that we help to create the earth and the ongoing uh creation of the earth, that creation doesn't stop once, but it continues to evolve.
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And we, as um being made in the image and likeness of God, have a special responsibility to be stewards of the earth, to help to make the earth more beautiful and to try to make the world a more just and safe uh place.
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So I began to understand myself as an architect and as a designer and as a guy who likes to make stuff, as this is my way to interact with the earth, uh, to interact with people and also to be who I feel um I am called to be.
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And and I do believe that when we when we try to follow the path, um, not the path that we love, but the path that leads us to truth or leads us to a sense of authentic self, this is where we will find the true happiness.
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Um, not happiness like ha ha ha ha ha ha, but happiness.
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Um Aristotle, the the Greek philosopher, he had this word uh called eudaimonia.
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And um what he means by the Greek word eudaimonia is full happiness, a sense of peacefulness in yourself, almost like a Buddhist, like a uh a mantra.
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So when we uh when we know who we are and we are being who we are, and we are engaging with the world as we are and see the world as it is, there's a kind of uh symbiosis, a kind of uh right relationship with you and around you.
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And this can lead to happiness in a very profound sense.
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This is how I wind up being an uh an architect, teacher, and priest, not because I want to be an architect, not because I want to be a priest, not because I want to be a teacher, but because this is who I am, and the world has some roles.
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So I think that you you are who you are, and then you try to find a way you can fit into the world that is going to allow you to be who you most genuinely are, and where uh you can bring joy to other people, and they can bring joy to you too.
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So I think that this is this is how I wind up.
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People think, oh, what are you first an architect or first a priest?
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I said, No, no, no, I'm first I'm Terence Curry.
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That's who I am, and I discovered my way in the world by finding these different roles, yeah.
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Wow, I feel like that's it.
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That's it.
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We all needed to hear.
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I didn't know for the interview.
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Yeah.
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Um I don't know where to begin, but I just wanted to say I kind of resolute with every single word you said.
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Sure.
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You know, I can see it.
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I can feel, I can we have a similar feeling.
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It's just a transcendent language, not be able to articulate as well as you did, but I think by the end of the day, it's like we are all the human beings, like with all the shared like characters.
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Yeah, like you know.
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I believe that, yeah.
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Yeah, in some sense that we feel like so connected, you know, coming from all this vastly different background.
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Like I totally embrace all that kind of gelated or gelated influence in shaping who we are.
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But on the core of it, it's like you are just who you really are.
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Like architecture or any other outlet or the craft that we uh kind of carry, it's just the form, it's just the way yeah, we interact with the world.
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But the majority of us often is kind of fitted away or kind of just hidden, yeah, like to unravel, like to reveal that authenticity piece.
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Yeah, you mentioned it.
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But if we just keep pursuing and trying to collect like a deep connection, yeah, then I think that true self, that authenticity will reveal itself.
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Yeah, but it's like such a hard yet very profound journey.
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But I think your story, like thank you so much for sharing such an intimate story because it does offer a path.
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It's almost like a testament, you know, to this connecting to your your life tasks and how it then embedded the meaning into our life, right?
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Yeah.
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I always found like, you know, I think the this internal question about what is the meaning of the life, yeah.
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I mean, it can't go into that very fatalistic uh trap of the thinking, right?
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It can be just meaningless, but the moment you decide to apply the meaning to your life, we reclaim that power, yeah.
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Yeah, to have out this epic, unique, um apologetic life trajectory, which is just different for each individual.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I, you know, there's a um you told everybody I'm a priest, so okay, so I I'm going to use some theological ideas, if you don't mind.
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So there's an idea, they call it the mystical body of Christ.
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So so the word Christ, so Jesus is a person, Christ is a title.
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And there's this notion that Christ is the absolute connection between creation and God together.
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So this is why we call the incarnation, the inca.
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So it's completely put together.
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So this idea that there's a mystical body of Christ, it means that everybody participates in being Christ in a very unique, special way.
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What I found very profound when I was, especially when I was uh at Pratt, I had some very, very cool friends who were very smart, uh, always like to talk about philosophy and things.
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And uh this idea of the mystical body of Christ, or sometimes they call it the kingdom uh of God.
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And that is where every insofar as everybody plays the role that they've been called to play, we have a peaceful whole world uh that it can work.
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Um but we all have to know who we are and identify what our gifts and talents are and make a contribution to building that world.
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It's not just like they say rose-colored glasses, it's not just uh idealism and naive.
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I know that's very difficult and there's a lot of evil in the world and there's a lot of problems, but the fundamental concept I love that um there is a kind of interconnectedness that we all yearn for, that we have to give ourselves to to experience.
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And the way we can do that first is by knowing who we are in the world.
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So this is idea in some of the more contemporary philosophy, they talk about to be in the world.
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So the notion of being in the world is that you embrace your connectedness with all that's around you.
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Um, that you're not sort of a tourist in the world, but you are inhabiting the place.
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This is why I love the word inhabitation.
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Me too.
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Inhabiting.
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Even better than dwelling.
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Dwelling, I think dwelling is a kind of way of staying in a place.
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I can dwell here, but to inhabit a place, I think means to put down roots, to really be there where you connect with the location.
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Like, for example, I know more and more now that I'm really from Brooklyn.
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There, I have a very strong identity with Brooklyn.
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Now, the more I learn about the place, so I'll tell you some, this is very interesting.
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Um, when I went to Pratt, I found some guys who wanted to be roommates with me.
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:54.960
And um, we wanted to get an apartment.
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.240
We didn't want to live on campus.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.680
And we found this apartment in Park Slope on President Street.
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.359
And I called my mother to say, Hey mom, we uh I just got an apartment with some of my buddies.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:04.799
And she goes, Oh, what's the address?
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.400
And I told her the address, and she goes, Oh my god, do you know where you are?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:14.559
And I was like, Yeah, Mom president, she goes, No, you're living right next to the hospital where you were born.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:24.640
Wow, did you across the street from where your gr from where your godmother lived for her whole whole her whole life and two blocks from where your grandmother was born?
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.079
So, oh, I didn't know.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:26.880
I didn't know.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.400
The hospital was closed many years ago and they were turning it into condominiums.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.799
Okay, but I was living in a brownstone nearby.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:47.680
And then a few years later, I went to go uh to live back here in Brooklyn and I moved into a church on 21st Street and Fifth Avenue, and I told my mother, she goes, Oh my god, that's the church that me and your father got married in and your grandmother lives up the street.
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:57.119
Now I have a a uh a studio here in Brooklyn in a place called Industry City, and an industry city used to be called the Bush Terminal.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:04.880
And when my girl when my grandfather, my father's father, came from Ireland when he was 19 or 20 years old, that's where he used to work to unload the ships.
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:05.839
Wow.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:07.759
There was like the whole fair.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:09.359
You can't escape, there's something.
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:10.000
There's something.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:11.119
Yeah, there's something there.
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:18.720
So and I think that so is that like the wessary, you know, cessations put you in there, you know, like something, I don't know.
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.279
Yeah.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.000
Because it's I think it's a coincidence.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:22.480
Yeah, it's a good thing.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.160
But every time I come back to it, so it's a weird coincidence.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.160
There's something that I am connected to.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:36.799
But I I think this, if you're living in the world, I think it's also like when I was living in Beijing, I really tried to connect myself with the place.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.880
I really tried to be in Beijing.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.160
Uh, so I didn't live in the expat community.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:44.319
I lived on the campus at Qinhua.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.000
Uh, I tried to go to the local market.
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:51.440
I did go to the local markets, I got to know the little the ladies, and they were always arguing, no, no, no, buy your food for me.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.279
No, no, no, buy me, buy for me.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.079
You know, I like uh Halloween very much.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:01.519
Uh and so I always like to have a small party for my students to carve the pumpkins to make like jack or lanterns.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:06.880
And so every Halloween I'd go there, and the ladies are arguing, no buy your pumpkins for me, no buy your pumpkins for me.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:10.880
Because I had to buy like 20 or 30 pumpkins, so I could buy them from some of them.
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:19.119
But it was a very nice way to live there and then to walk over, to be with the students, and to try to learn how to cook some Chinese food.
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:27.440
I tried very hard to learn Chinese and uh I feel very embarrassed uh while the Jong went the den the bu ho.
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:34.240
Uh but I I took lessons every day, but I when I first went to China, I was already more than 50 years old.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.519
And so when you get older, it's harder to learn a new language.
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:42.799
And uh so I can speak a little bit, but I'm really embarrassed because I really loved being in China.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:59.839
And the biggest problem I had in China is I could not have this kind of conversation with anybody in Chinese, and so it was difficult, you know, because my Chinese friends they want me to come visit them, and then they say, Oh no, he doesn't speak Chinese, and my friends don't speak English, and so then they have to be translated.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.519
Translator, and then it's very uncomfortable.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:02.240
It's not fun.
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:10.640
So I know my podcast on uh Red Note, um, some of the some of the comments were very critical of me for not speaking Chinese.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:13.839
I know too caution, you know.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:14.319
Yeah.
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.559
But um, you know, but I mean it's true.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.119
I mean, if you're going to live in China, you should speak Chinese.
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.240
I know that that's true.
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:25.599
I um I'll tell you something else very personal, is um I was sent to China.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:31.839
So you said like I'm a missionary, and in in many ways that's true, but not in the normal way of missionary.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:35.599
The Jesuits, our idea of being a missionary is to go and be with people.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:41.680
I'm not, I don't have any obligation to try to make anybody Christian or to make or even make you believe what I believe.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:42.079
No.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:46.720
My main job is to go and to teach and to be helpful, to do, to offer something.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:52.079
So my superior, the guy in charge of my community, he asked me if I would go to China.
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:59.200
I was living in in Hungary at the time in Budapest, and uh I never went to China, and honestly, I never thought to go to China.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.480
Um, so when he asked me to go, I was really surprised.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:03.680
I was like, What?
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:04.640
China?
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.279
Me?
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:05.680
Why?
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:06.720
He goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:07.279
No, you should go.
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.960
Try, try, try, try, try, cool, go, cool.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:13.200
So he gave me one uh plane ticket, and uh I did not know anybody in China.
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:14.400
I didn't have a job.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:27.839
Uh, and so I just went there and um I uh lived with uh a friend, another Jesuit for a while, and then some one friend introduced me to somebody else, and then I got a job teaching at Qinghua, and then I got to know so many great students.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.759
Oh my god, I love my students.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.079
I loved, I loved being in Beijing, but I never I never thought to go there.
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:48.640
It was uh it was a big challenge for me uh personally uh to go to leave my friends and my my family here, but I found so many beautiful, wonderful people there, and uh we made so many cool things there too that um I think I'm a better person because I went to China.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.440
So wow, thank you for seeing that.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:59.039
Um, you know, Teres, like you share all this kind of anecdote and also very you know some of those personal stories with us.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:17.200
For me, I think I just see a human actually really living in the world, you know, like the way and he's constantly unlock different dimensions of his life, and also like always kind of with the heart open to the world.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.119
And you emphasize quite a lot about the connection.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:28.400
I think I love that word so much because it can be sometimes very philosophical or very historic, like conceptual.
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:29.119
Theoretical.
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:42.319
But then we also want to really have uh particularly your maker, is something that is tangible, it's like just something with the depth and substance has to be grounded and layered.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:56.559
So that is the storytelling and what we hear today, but that is actually the testament to you know that passion, that you know, benevolence to interact with every person come across your life.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.079
Yeah, you love your students and uh you know, and your families and your friends.
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:08.960
So you are highly intelligent, you know, intellectual, you are on the kind of you know, the pinnacle of the academia.
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:15.680
You know, like all these people just so easily today put someone or some idea on the pedestal.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:29.359
But I think what we really need to you know unpack here is like what is under list for, and what I say under them for, you know, just a beautiful human being, but it's down to the core of who you are.
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:41.839
As you say, there is all this evil you're stuck in the world, but we uh kind of almost had that sense of the responsibility to counterbalance that darkness with our bright light.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:50.000
And so just in that I just extend my greatest thanks for all this light you bring to the world, you know.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:51.039
Yeah, thank you.
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:51.680
Thank you.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.759
But but as you said, it's go ahead.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:00.960
No, this is let's just go into the flow, right?
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:07.359
As I said, as yeah, just very much the conversation on the fly because you just inspire me constantly.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:14.160
Yeah, but I still have to do my you know due diligence, you know, do all this prep, you know, have some questions just on the back pocket.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:21.440
I didn't even share my question with you because I just want to like the most genuine what do you feel most compelled to share?
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:21.839
I don't know.
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.279
What do you share with me?
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:29.279
We haven't even really got into it, the core question of it, but I feel just even now, yeah.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.480
I just feel like so so much hope, you know?
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:32.960
Yeah.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:41.440
I mean, I'm like an inheritantly joyful person, but as you're getting older, you kind of like say all this different spectrum of the world.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:49.599
Yeah, but then I just kind of reminds me why we have to stay in that bright side because we have human beings like you.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:56.799
Well, uh, you know, this maybe is not the direction you want to go with this interview, but but you know, it's not always bright.
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:01.279
Um, I've suffered for a while for some very serious depression and sadness.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:08.000
And um living in I found sometimes uh a lot of loneliness living in China.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:14.079
Uh, but even here, you know, sometimes you ask questions of yourself, you know, did I make the right choice?
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:22.799
Uh sometimes you get misunderstood or you can't communicate, and sometimes I can become very, you know, I'm a very passionate guy and uh very honest guy.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:29.359
Uh and if I feel that somebody is not treating me well or accepts my honesty, I can get very frustrated.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:34.960
And I can become white, actually, I can become quite angry sometimes uh with my students or with my friends.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:36.720
I'm not happy about that.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:44.400
Uh, but um I think part of it is again part of this question of being authentic and being uh being genuine.
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:46.559
I'm not a I'm not a good politician.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.400
What you see is what you get, you know.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.920
Um and I think that part and and I struggle with this sometimes, honestly.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:00.720
And I think a lot of designers do, a lot of uh creative people have to struggle with this because I think one of the greatest sources of our creativity is our feelings.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:07.920
And so to be a good politician, you have to know how to put your you have to know how to take your feelings and put them to the side.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:24.079
I think I I think this is also great value in Chinese culture in general, is to hide your feelings and to manage your feelings, put them to put them to the side, put them to the side so you can always have a kind of very calm, almost uh neutral experience outside yourself.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:25.599
And I admire this ability.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:33.680
I have some friends here in the US who are really, really great uh at leadership um and administration because they don't get upset.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.480
It doesn't matter what anybody says to them, they never get upset.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:37.759
But I do get upset.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:39.440
I'm not sure of this, okay.
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:46.240
So but I really trust my feelings, and I think that's part of what my creative energy.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.559
Uh so when I see something, I feel it.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:55.519
The only book I one book I did write, it's my doctorate thesis, and turned it into a book, is called Form Follows Feeling.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:02.400
And uh the reason I wrote this, um, and I wrote it when I was late, usually a professor does their PhD before they start teaching.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.359
But in architecture in the US, I could teach with my um bachelor of architecture.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:15.440
So for most of my career, my the degree that I was teaching with was a bachelor of architecture, and I didn't start my PhD until I was already in my 40s, uh 50s.
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:25.359
And uh so I wrote it about beauty uh because a lot of my a lot of my friends are always arguing with me that uh beauty is an abstract idea, it doesn't exist.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:27.359
You say beauty, they say beauty.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:36.880
They they use the uh kind of uh I think a sophomore idea of uh beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that beauty is fundamentally uh relative.
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:38.319
But that I this isn't true.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.799
There are things that are beautiful that we all know are beautiful.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.160
Now, okay, you can argue, you can play the devil's advocate, you know, blah blah blah.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:45.680
You can try to have an argument with me.
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:51.119
But I do know that you know, that I know, that we know, that there are beautiful things that we all hold to be beautiful.
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:52.720
There's a universal thing.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:57.839
And I wanted to explore that question because I've also been a teacher for a long time.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:01.279
Um, I wanted to be able to um say.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:05.200
So we we sometimes we know stuff before we can say it.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:21.279
All right, so or we know more than we can say, and then I think the job of the uh scholar is to do the very, very hard work of trying to say what we really know, but to say it in a way with that is uh substantiated.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:29.039
So I always make this argument with my students too is that I want to hear your opinion, but in the academic environment, you have to substantiate your opinion.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:37.200
And you could substantiate your opinion with legitimate authority, somebody who we know is an expert, with your own research, you can test it and show me it's true, or because it's common knowledge.
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:38.640
Well, everybody knows this is true.
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:40.880
Uh so but you have to be able to substantiate.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.759
So I keep on making this claim that beauty exists, and I need to substantiate it.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:51.200
But I also need to substantiate that I do believe that design also can be learned.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:31:00.480
Now, a lot of people will argue in the design world is that the job of the first and second year in design school is to get rid of those who are not natural designers.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:05.279
A lot of schools are very proud that they take in 100 students in the first year and they graduate 10.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:06.720
Oh, I see you're such great.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:13.440
But and maybe that's true, maybe it's true, but most people that I think many people think that there's a such thing as natural talent.
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:18.240
I don't accept natural talent actually is almost an insult to people who are really great at something.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:19.599
They're just saying, oh, it's easy for you.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:23.119
No, no, to become great at anything is extremely difficult.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:24.000
Extremely difficult.
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:37.200
I think it's it's we can go back to the beginning of the conversation to say that there are certain kinds of aptitudes that I have, and I'm trying to find a way to use my aptitudes in a way that is meaningful in the world and also in a way that I can have fine happiness and success.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:43.279
So I think that there are certain aptitudes somebody who wants to be a designer must have, but then they have to learn how to develop them.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:52.319
So the idea of form follows feeling is that when we try to design something, we're trying to create an experience for somebody else.
00:31:52.480 --> 00:32:01.039
Uh the word that I like to use is the phrase is we're trying to induce a particular type of experience in someone else.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:09.119
And the expert designer, like the expert chef, knows the chef knows what kind of taste to put together to induce a particular flavor.
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:14.880
The architect, the expert designer, should know what it is that he or she is trying to achieve.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:16.079
I don't think this is taught.
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.720
I think people think, oh, it's just lucky, or oh, it looks cool.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.160
But look, it's only one seeing is only one sense.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.000
We experience space with our bodies.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:25.440
It's a haptic sensibility.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:27.920
So just because it looks cool doesn't mean it feels cool.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.880
Uh so what we're trying to do is create a feeling experience.
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:42.799
So what I would argue, and this is what I argue in my book, is using a mostly cognitive neuroscience, is the way our brains are wired is uh they're wired to seek experiences.
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:55.440
So as a designer, yes, I have to do the scientific analysis, and yes, I have to do the math, yes, I have to understand the laws and I have to understand the requirements, but fundamentally, how do I know when I have a good design?
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:55.920
Yeah.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.880
I know I have a good design because it feels right.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:02.799
Now, how do you know that your feeling is of a high quality?
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:04.880
And this is what we call connoisseurship.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:17.680
So part of the design education is not only learning how to draw and how to calculate and how to figure out what how a structure can stand and what the volume is and how to keep the water out and the heat in.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:30.720
It's also learning how to recognize what beauty is and learning how to to go to places that induce a particular experience that you can identify and then look around and say, how did they do that?
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.000
It's like when you go to that dinner and you have that really delicious soup.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:35.440
Is that tarragon?
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.400
I think it's tarragon.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:37.839
I think they put tarragon in here.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:41.119
There's a flavor that you're looking for, and this is kind of connoisseurship.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:58.559
And I think that this is part of what we uh what is missing explicitly in architecture education, and it is certainly what is going to be required uh for to be a successful designer, an architect or graphic designer or anything in the world of AI.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:05.039
Uh, because AI is able to do a lot of the stuff that engineers can do, you know.
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:14.800
So design, uh AI will never be really great at design because design is uh an open-ended design problem, design solving, problem-solving process.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.719
AI is only good at problems that have a clear answer, like scientific answers.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:20.079
Design doesn't have a good answer.
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:22.639
You studied architecture for a while, design for a while.
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:27.039
Nobody in the design class, even though they get the same design brief, comes up with the same solution.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:27.519
Why?
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.039
Because they frame it differently, because there's so many possible solutions.
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:40.239
And I think that the thing that will guide you through your solution and what will guide me through my solution is not just the critical analysis, but is also going to be the feeling.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:46.480
Gaudi, Antonio Gaudi, uh creates this amazing sculptural form.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.800
And how did he know it was right?
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:54.559
Uh Michelangelo, the famous uh Italian sculptor, was asked when he looks at the how you know, how did you do it?
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.519
And he says, Well, I take away everything that doesn't belong.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:58.000
Wow.
00:34:58.159 --> 00:34:59.519
How do you know what doesn't belong?
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.559
You go to the uh Imperial Palace in Beijing, and it's awesome.
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:11.519
How did they induce that sense of awe like repetition scale?
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.039
And we can we can talk about it, but we can't repeat it.
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:18.000
Just think of the how many terrible government buildings are.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:28.960
So I think that this being aware of our feelings and being attentive uh to our feelings um is uh a very important part of being a designer.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:37.440
Or maybe it's just my excuse for why maybe sometimes I lose my temper or I can- But I want to also let you know, just to be honest, is that right now I'm in a very good place.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.280
I'm very happy, I'm very happy to talk to you.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:43.679
But sometimes if I'm working, I can get uh a little frustrated and focused.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:44.960
So I'm not always subject.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:46.079
You can ask my students.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:51.679
I think most of my students will say he's a very good teacher, uh, he loves the students very much, but he's very hard.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:53.119
But I do, I really do love them.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:58.320
And what I love is because my my idea with the students is I want them to find their own voice.
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.599
I want them to be able to make something that they are going to be proud of.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.360
I don't want them to make something that I like.
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:04.239
I know what I like.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:05.280
I can make what I like.
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:06.400
Don't worry about me.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:10.159
I want you to make something that is an expression of who you are.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:11.679
Because the world needs your voice.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:14.880
See, this goes back to this idea of the mystical body of Christ, right?
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:16.320
The world needs your voice.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.039
It's not that it's nice if we have it, it's that the world is hungry for your voice.
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.280
But if you don't know how to express your voice, then we then we lose.
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:26.800
We are a richer person.
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:35.599
Um, so when my students learn how to write well, or they learn how to draw well, or they learn, or they're really, or they follow their vocation, they follow who they really want.
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.039
The world is a better place because we need uh we need each other.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:40.320
We need each other's voices.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:40.719
Yeah.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:41.519
I believe that.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:42.719
I really do believe that.
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:43.440
Me too.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.159
So that's kind of prompt me to reach out to you.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:51.679
You know, I think it takes a little bit of like courage, right, to reach out to the industry expert.
00:36:51.920 --> 00:37:01.039
Well, I'm not the industry professional or expert there, so what did I get to say, you know, that may resonate with you on the personal level.
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:01.840
Yeah.
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:03.199
We're having a nice conversation.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:04.639
But now, yeah, that's the truth.
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:06.000
Yeah, now it's proof, right?
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:07.679
There's just a lot of the resonance.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.719
So that's why I mean, when I teach to you, I kind of share my connection with architecture.
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:14.079
It's on the broader lens.
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:21.360
I'm kind of the one who is on the other end of this, other end of this whole process, which I'm the one who experienced architecture, right?
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:37.760
You probably most of the time kind of less around with all the industry experts, you know, like all the like architect students, friends, but really, you know, like people like me completely just like outsiders, but then we hear talking about architecture.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:55.199
Yeah, I mean, because of course you are grounded and you are kind and you are you know so open to share all this uh the you know your knowledge and the wisdom with us, but also then we kind of see like the full circle of it, and you put such a heavy pin on that quality experience.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:01.119
And I can tell you exactly that's how I connect to the architectures through that quality experience.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:10.239
I'm not part of the making it, but coming out of that, I can tell you, yes, it does uh you know spark different emotional experience.
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:16.000
I mean, it can spark a curiosity or like hope, and also can be you know on the other end of the spectrum.
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.920
So it's mixed baby as an artist working so hard for what?
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.320
You want to induce the quality of the experience, right?
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:23.760
You want to enhance the humanity.
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:24.320
I do.
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:30.880
Yes, you do for sure, and the students you can get better.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:37.920
Yeah, but even yeah, just just really kind of like peppermint is like exactly you know what the part we can play in the world.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:45.760
Like, say you are amazing, architect and you build up this the masterpiece, only make it really meaningful when there's people in there.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:59.599
So for all these, you know, legendary architect like you, you know, other architect in the world, they the reason they can make some pieces that stands the taste of the toy is that they always care about the humanity and the humanity.
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:03.360
As you say, it's sometimes it's just like I just feel it's right.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:10.000
The minute I step into that space, it's just kind of elevating my entire uh being.
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.320
Yeah, like emotionally, uh physically.
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:14.239
Yeah, it's amazing, it's a great experience.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:15.679
Yeah, it's divine, right?
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:19.280
Yeah, it's divine, the surprise versus can't be.
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.480
Yeah, it's because I'm still like on the very surface level, okay.
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:28.239
But I did kind of touch on that feeling, like that very ideal uh status of the being.
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:33.360
Yeah, but I just become so almost uh intoxicating pursuing that.
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:43.199
Yeah, I just wanted to always like living in that status, in that emotional abundance and also like almost spiritual readings.
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:44.480
Yeah, I'm not even gonna be able to do that.
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:46.400
And and why not?
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:47.280
Why not?
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:55.599
So let me tell you uh another small small story, but first I want to uh I am not a I I I am not a famous designer.
00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:02.000
I I I think you know, in the first part of my career, my I worked only with uh committed design.
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:07.599
Yeah, I I I did get a lot of uh design awards for some small and medium-sized projects.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:12.480
Some of my students, even before they graduated, make taller buildings than I ever designed.
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:25.840
So uh what happened for me uh is part because of uh because of my uh my vocation and because of the way I choose to live my life, I became a little bit more of a teacher and uh a lot more of a teacher.
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.760
Uh I don't have my own children, so you know, and I like to make stuff and I like to make furniture.
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:38.719
So there's a level of complexity in large big buildings that um I just I've never been interested in really.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:43.119
So I I'm aware now that I'm I'm in my mid-60s.
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:47.599
I'm probably not going to make any great big buildings, and um, but it's okay for me.
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:49.519
Uh I just want to be clear of that.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:52.719
I I don't think I'm I'm I'm not a I'm I'm not a famous guy, you know.
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.400
I'm I just try to do good work.
00:40:54.480 --> 00:41:01.199
Um but but this is also where I want to go with this is um I think the emphasis there's too much emphasis on the big famous projects.
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:04.559
People don't live in big famous projects, they live in housing projects.
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:09.280
Uh they live in villages, they we treat people too much like warehouses.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:17.599
Uh so there's I where I would like to make the biggest impact is this question of affordability and and scale of housing and how we live each other.
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:21.840
With do we house each other or do we just store each other?
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:26.559
How do we live together with each other, you know, in a parking in an apartment space?
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:28.960
Better to know your neighbors or not.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:31.360
Um, where do you find your sense of community?
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:34.320
They talk about the third spaces in your life, right?
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:38.480
There's the your worst, there's your home space, and then where are those third spaces?
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:40.719
And then people talk about fourth spaces and fifth spaces.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:42.000
Okay, lots and lots of spaces.
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:44.559
Um there's a lot written about these questions.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:49.760
But uh, I think this is a big uh question for us is to try to solve this question.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.719
I get up, I leave my house, and I go to work.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:56.480
What are the spaces I'm passing through on my way to work?
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:02.239
It's something that I became aware of living on Lone Island and uh going to the shopping mall.
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:11.840
We leave the house, we get in the car, and we put our blinders on, we get into the parking lot and we pretend not to be there, and then we wake up again when we get inside the mall.
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:16.320
There's all this time and all these spaces we've traveled through that we try to ignore.
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:20.719
When I I I one of my first jobs, my first teaching position was at the University of Detroit.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:25.360
And uh I started a design center there that's still going on, the Detroit Collaborative Design Center.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:26.880
I founded that in 1994.
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:35.599
And what we used to do is I used to we go through the neighborhoods and talk with community organizations, do a neighborhood assessment, and then do like a SWOT analysis, you know.
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:39.119
What's a SWAT is uh what is what stands for?
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:42.320
Sometimes it's threats, opportunities, and threats, right, right, right, right.
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:46.719
Anyway, we do do one of one of those uh analyses things.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:54.480
Uh so then um there was this one street that we were looking at, and on the side of the street was a dead dog, like a German shepherd.
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:56.559
It was dead, but it was dead for a few months already.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:58.079
You know, there's flies around anything.
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:05.760
And we worked in that neighborhood for four months, and at the end of the semester, we um showed them pictures of their neighborhood.
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:10.480
And many of the people said that dog was not there, but it was, it was still there.
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:16.480
Wow, the the sanitation people did not move it, it was rotting on the side of the street, but nobody saw it.
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:18.400
And it was near bus stop.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:25.440
It was it was not often the grow part, it was on a main street, it was just decaying on the road, but nobody saw it.
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:30.880
So one of the things we did always there's a lot of the cognitive neuroscience, is that we we have filters, right?
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.519
So you and I can have this conversation now and we see each other, but you know, there's a lot of stuff behind me.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.079
Yeah, but you're filtering it so you can look at me.
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.760
Um, and maybe there's sounds around you, uh, but you're not listening to those you listen to.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:44.880
So our brains act as a filter, and it's how magic works too, right?
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:46.320
You so they create a distraction.
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:52.239
Wow, so there is a possibility that you really don't see things, really don't.
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:53.519
It could be there forever.
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:55.360
I never noticed that.
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:59.760
You have to learn a skill when you live in difficult urban environments to not to see.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.280
Because if you saw all of the ugliness, you couldn't live there.
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:05.199
You'd feel threatened all the time.
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:08.239
It would be too terrible to see the dead dog every day.
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:10.239
Or you would have to do something about it.
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:14.159
But if you f don't if you feel powerless to do something, then you can't see it.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:19.679
Now a month after that I went to um Vincenza in um in Italy.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.400
And I was like, it was so beautiful.
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:23.039
Everything.
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:27.039
Oh, the the city of Palladio and the streets were gorgeous.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:33.039
And I was like, oh or I wrote this article recently about the renovation of Notre Dame.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:43.440
So my argument was, and the question I was exploring was the space, a liturgical space, a space where you go to pray, should induce a sense of the sacred.
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:50.400
And then the question is, well, what happens when you become when a feeling of the sacred becomes normal?
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.199
Because novelty is an important part of design, right?
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:56.000
What happens when you become used to this feeling?
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:58.480
And I say that's when you become more human.
00:44:59.440 --> 00:44:59.840
You should.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:11.599
When the feeling of the we should become more uh we should the experience of the divine or the experience of the extraordinary or the experience of the beauty should not be something that is unusual.
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:16.159
I mean, we love to go for a walk in the in the forest, but the people live in the forest.
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.199
Do the people who live in the forest love walking in the forest?
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:21.440
Well, yes, they're used to it.
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:23.760
We go there, oh yeah, yeah.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:30.400
But imagine if that you're used to with that quality of experience of beauty around you.
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:31.760
Uh we go to the beach.
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:33.920
The people who live on the beach is normal, right?
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:36.000
But what happens when beauty becomes normal?
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:46.880
And this is what I this is the experiment I would like to try is let's see if we could design a beautiful city and see what happens when people are only surrounded by beauty.
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:48.960
I don't know, I don't think it would be a bad thing.
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:52.400
I told I used to like to tell students, you're gonna design a school.
00:45:52.559 --> 00:46:00.880
It's a very big responsibility because these children are going to be looking at those walls and that shape of that room for how many hours?
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:03.039
And do you think that doesn't affect them?
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:03.840
Come on.
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:11.119
The school I went to, the walls were just concrete blocks and the tiles were ugly and the nasty ceiling and terrible lights.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:13.119
No, that wasn't a beautiful place.
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:15.840
So anyway, um maybe I'm going too far.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:16.719
No, no, no.
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:27.760
I'm fascinating by the experiment that if we build this very beautiful school and the you know people with experiences like all these odd emotions become in like a norm abnormal.
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.199
I personally I think I will adapt to it.
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:34.880
I think I won't mind experience that like constantly.
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:41.360
But I don't know, maybe for some people that would come mutate into sort of the fatigue, like a beauty fatigue.
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:42.239
Yeah, maybe.
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.480
Say if you go to Florence, you can become overwhelmed by too much beauty.
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:47.599
They do say that's possible.
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:48.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:48.719
Maybe it's possible.
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:53.920
Be some neutral and but I mean But it's not overwhelmed, but it's become like a bit of norm.
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:59.440
Because you know, like, oh, this is so beautiful, you know, I'll get it so used to it's now it just becomes a norm.
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:03.519
I think we should do an experiment and see if you probably should do the you know experiment.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:10.719
But for people like us, I think we have such a strong sensibility around building, like I will never get tired of it, right?
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:11.920
I will never get bored of it.
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:12.880
Please put me in a beautiful.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:14.400
Maybe it's worse for you.
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.519
Maybe it's worse for you because you're more sensitive to it.
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:22.320
Yeah, but but I think it's just, I don't know, utopia doesn't exist.
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:23.920
So uh what's his name?
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.960
Uh I I I quote a lot of philosophers, I'm sorry.
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:32.880
But uh uh Sartre, Jean-Paul Sartre, the famous um what was he, existentialist.
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:40.800
Um he said that the beginning of every revolution begins when somebody can see that it could be different, it could be otherwise.
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:53.440
Yeah, and I think that this is part of this is why I'm also saying that an important part of the design education has to be connoisseurship, is we need to learn how to appreciate and recognize uh beautiful things.
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:55.440
Yeah, I think it's the same thing with food, right?
00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:00.880
So um a lot of Americans think that American Chinese food is a normal Chinese food.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:15.199
I have to tell them no, no, it's like American Italian food is not real Italian food, American German food is not really German food because in America you have all these different cultures coming together, so everybody changes everybody else's food to make it acceptable to more people.
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:24.880
Uh but I was shocked when I first went to China to even know that the the food in the north is different than the food in the south and uh the different flavors and different ethnic.
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:26.480
Ah, I missed it.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:38.320
Uh so but I think this is also true with design and with architecture and spatial experience is to be able to go to different places and to feel it and to be able to identify why and how do they achieve it.
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:40.960
So, why do people appreciate it and how do they achieve it?
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:43.840
Because there's different aesthetics in different places, right?
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:47.280
So I don't believe that there's one universal aesthetic.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:55.039
Uh so for example, in um in the theory of beauty in cognitive neuroscience, they talk about that the aesthetic experience can be understood at three levels.
00:48:55.199 --> 00:49:00.239
It can be understood at the first person's level, uh, which is subjective.
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:01.840
So I like what I like.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:07.760
So, for example, um, let's say my my niece, well actually, but my my nephew just sent me a drawing.
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:12.320
I hope he doesn't hear this uh podcast, but um, it's not so great.
00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:14.880
I love it, I think it's beautiful.
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:18.719
But if I'm taught if I look at it as a professor, I was like, it's not so great.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:20.960
Even for a 10-year-old, it's not so great.
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:25.599
But but he but I love this boy and his and his mother is my godchild.
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:26.719
I mean, just no.
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:28.960
I love it, it makes me feel warm all over it.
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:30.400
That's my subjective experience.
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:31.360
But I know it's my subject.
00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:35.599
I do not expect that when you look at that picture, you're going to have the same feeling.
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:36.159
I don't.
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:37.440
Then there's a second level.
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:49.360
There's the level of uh there's a level of um of a community or a uh a basic group that that we all when when you look at the you you look at my coffee cup and you say, Oh, that's a very beautiful coffee cup.
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:54.559
And I know you will think it's a beautiful coffee cup because, well, we we like black coffee cups and where we come from.
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:56.719
And so this is this is a normative thing.
00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:58.559
And maybe it's a cultural issue too.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:16.159
So maybe um, you know, there's a certain kind of proportion system, like, oh, I have this beautiful uh sculpture designed made by a very famous uh Eurobuck uh sculptor, and you can see the proportion is one, two, three, and then one, two, three, four.
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.079
Three this way, four this way.
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:24.880
Very normal for West Africa for their uh sculptures and proportions, and it's a gives you a kind of feeling to it, right?
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:26.639
So we can really appreciate that.
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:32.239
But then there's also beauty that ex that exists at the universal level, at the human level.
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:47.199
So, for example, we can expect that there's certain kinds of experiences that all humans will appreciate, but we don't expect that a dog would appreciate it because a dog's a different species, and a dog experienced the world from with hair all over his body and four feet on the ground.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:54.400
And uh so I think when we when we try to talk about aesthetic experience, we we have to come from that starting point.
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:58.480
Yes, there's there's different levels uh that we expect the other to experience.
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:18.000
Yeah, I love how you break down into the beauty because I think for the very first time that someone has interpreted beauty through this kind of intricacy because people can say, oh, this is very superficial, it can be all very like subjective, but finally someone can really clearly yeah, just like distilled the layers of the beauty.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:28.079
Yeah, that's how it kind of like matches with uh you know which phases of your understanding for beauty, and you can like mapping out, oh, where is my understanding for beauty?
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:47.039
If I say that that's a superficial, maybe that's still just within that your very personal beholder where you, yeah, it's just like you haven't really tapped into the deeper layer of the beauty, but when we kind of live in life to the point we further connect it to the second level, the third level with the community, with the universal.
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:51.360
I mean, certainly the beauty can be like a lifelong mission to pursue.
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:57.199
I often said beauty is the only imperishable investment and go beyond all the contingencies.
00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:03.920
I truly believe that, but I just couldn't really articulate it the way you just yeah, unpacked it.
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:07.920
But now that's all about uh yeah, these are all about beauty.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:09.760
These are all about beauty stories.
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:10.079
Yeah.
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:15.599
You have to read a lot about to be able to say things, uh, to say things clearly.
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:24.480
Yeah, and also I think it took me like a decade to reach the very unequivocal narrative about my life uh vision, so to speak.
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:30.159
Yeah, it's like I wanted to interpret this world intellectually and uh aesthetically.
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:39.199
So you say, I don't know why that idea came into my mind, but it's just kind of gradually forming into that concept of the beauty.
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:44.800
So today that we actually have this such in-depth conversation, like revolver around the beauty.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:49.119
I mean, just feel wow, this is so held in my core, not just aesthetic core.
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.519
You know, it's like the core of the humanity.
00:52:51.679 --> 00:53:00.800
So when I say like we go beyond that level of the title, whatever, because I think when you touch on something in the core, this is like the real substance is there.
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:04.320
So I think as you said, we are all meant for many different things.
00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:09.119
Like, so there is Arcte being rewarded with all this acclaim, and which is great, right?
00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:10.559
It's a little bit recognition.
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:15.920
And but even the designer, they take upon different types of the project on the different scale.
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:26.800
Yeah, that can be like we recognize Arcte doing like this larger projects or can be very more intimate, like residential, but you are heavily engaged with a community project.
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.840
This is like what you are set up to do it, right?
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:37.760
And I found that this is so meaningful because you know, like this world, just only these different types of the architecture, yeah.
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:44.079
Like say this is the one fabric you will into the type street of the, you know, this world city.
00:53:44.239 --> 00:54:01.440
Yeah, so that's I'm not trying to like honorify or kind of you know put a certain type of the rewards or architecture, you know, onto them, but instead we just want you are all equally contributed to you know yeah, adding the beauty to the world.
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:11.920
Well, just let me uh add just to add something to this, is that you know the the conversation we're having so far is uh really very philosophical and very theoretical and really interesting, very deep, right?
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:24.079
Um but you know, in the end, um we can talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk about beauty, but um making buildings and making uh making beautiful things is mostly hard work.
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:34.079
And I think this is this is part of uh the conversation that nobody really wants to talk about is that to make a thing a beauty requires so much effort.
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:40.800
Uh it looks so simple, but this beautiful thing that's made a high-quality thing made in China is very beautiful.
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:42.719
And the craftsmanship is fantastic.
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:44.559
This is Chinese craftsmanship, it's beautiful.
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:48.159
Look how beautiful the edges are and the way the pieces come together.
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:50.079
It's extraordinary, it's exquisite.
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:52.320
But this is very difficult to make.
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:54.960
Extremely and very expensive to make.
00:54:55.119 --> 00:55:03.760
To make the machines that can make this requires an extremely high level of intelligence and discipline and hard work and refinement.
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:21.360
The same thing, even with this uh sculpture here, is the the amount of time it took for the sculptor to be able to develop such a beautiful uh design vocabulary and then to handle the uh the chisel in such a precise way.
00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:23.360
This took an incredible amount of time.
00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:39.440
When you design a building, and this is the part that uh I think a lot of uh recently I was teaching at uh at SIGs at the Qinghua uh Shenzhen International Graduate School, and um I was teaching graduate design students, and one of the things that I I love the students there very much, I I fought with them a lot.
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:49.119
And I fought with them a lot mostly because I I wanted them to embrace the um the discipline of architecture or the discipline of design.
00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:58.880
It's very hard and it's very tedious, and it takes forever, and you have to do it over and over and over and over again to get it right.
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:00.480
You never get it right the first time.
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:02.079
Nobody gets it right the first time.
00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:05.280
They tell all these silly stories about Frank Lloyd Wright.
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:09.760
He made this drawing of this beautiful building for the Kaufman family on his way on the train.
00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:10.400
That's not true.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:11.519
Isn't that true?
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:16.880
We have all of the little sketches he did two years before.
00:56:17.440 --> 00:56:20.800
But that's the story they like to tell because they want him to sound like he's a genius.
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:22.400
Yeah, I totally go into that.
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:23.599
I totally bind it.
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:26.639
No, it's ridiculous.
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:28.559
That doesn't work like that.
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:34.639
You know, the genius is not, the genius is not doing it, getting it right the first time.
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:39.360
The genius is being able to stick to it and go over it until you get it right.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:41.920
Because I know what it's right, I just have to see it.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:43.840
And so I have to try it over and over.
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:48.639
So when I draw it the first time, it it's okay, but then I have to figure out how to make it.
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:52.079
Well, I can't make it if I if it's shipped like that, I can't make it.
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:55.840
I have to make it like this, and then but then I want to use a different material.
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:57.840
Oh crap, that material costs too much money.
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:02.639
And then I have to change it, and then the client, remember, in the end, architects are meaningless.
00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:04.639
In the end, it's the client who pays for the building.
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:10.159
You know, you can design whatever the heck you want, but if nobody will build it, then it's never going to get built.
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:13.840
So in the end, it's the it's the taste of the owner that matters the most.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.280
But you know, if the client doesn't like it, then you have to change it also.
00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:23.119
So it's this ongoing process of refinement and changing and refinement and changing.
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:30.320
But I think we we live in a world with this idea of immediate gratification that uh boom, it's done.
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:32.480
I just bought a five-axis CNC.
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:33.280
Uh, it's really cool.
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:35.760
It's made in China, and I I love it, it's a great machine.
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:39.360
All of my friends, when they look at it, they say, oh wow, so now you can just make anything.
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:40.320
It's gonna be so easy.
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:48.320
It's like, no, I have to design it and now I have to program it, and then I have to test it, and then it's it's not going to come out right the first time.
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:52.159
Then I'm gonna have to retest it and then I have to do it, and then it's going to take a long time.
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:55.760
The machine helps me to achieve the result that I want.
00:57:55.920 --> 00:58:03.599
But the machine doesn't do it, and it's this kind of commitment to refinement uh that is the discipline of the craft.
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.320
So I do believe that there's there's a craft to this.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:10.719
So if you talk to any of the really famous architects, they also love to talk about the big picture.
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:16.079
But they're the ones who are in their studio until late at night and they won't stop until they get it right.
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:20.079
This, I think, if you want beauty, beauty is available, but it's not free.
00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:20.400
Yeah.
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:25.599
And beauty is expensive not because it costs a lot of money, but it takes a lot of heart, it takes a lot of effort.
00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:25.920
Yeah.
00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:28.960
Because everything is pushing away from everything resists it.
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:33.360
You know, you I want to make a beautiful thing, but the almost everything in the world doesn't want it to be beautiful.
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:36.639
They want it to be average, uh, they want it to be disposable.
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:41.679
They don't want so then there's also a desire for beauty, and there's this fight.
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:46.880
And the only way you can achieve it is by committing to it and sticking to it and fighting for it.
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:48.800
Don't stop until you get it right.
00:58:48.960 --> 00:58:49.119
Yeah.
00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:51.440
I think you have a feeling for that with your podcast.
00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:55.679
I think that you, you know, like I've watched a few of them, and I can see you're very well prepared.
00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:00.000
So you're learning that it I think a lot of people will look and say, oh, she just calls somebody and la.
00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:05.840
No, you do a lot of uh you do a lot of preparation, you do a lot of reading, you try to set it in order to make it right.
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.840
And I think this is true for everything.
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:08.800
Wow.
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:14.559
I just can't tell you how much I appreciate it, how you really value all the behind the scene efforts.
00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:20.400
You know, people often just say good notifying for some and but put the back of the curtain.
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:24.960
We don't really, we don't even want to talk about the you know unseen efforts.
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:30.159
And also you truly value how much effort then put into crafting the building.
00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:46.400
I think at some point, like we kind of get a little bit dismissive about it because maybe we live in a world where we are so bombarded by all the overloaded information and on the social media, there was like just one clip, there's millions of the mention in church design kind of presented to you.
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:50.559
So, but almost like overlook or neglect in each piece.
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:53.679
There is the the artist put hard on the sewing.
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:57.119
Like this the coffee, yeah.
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:02.000
I just bought it, it's not like something like uh very you know customized.
01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:04.239
Or I just bought it from the shopping move.
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:15.280
Kind of people would yeah, but people, oh, this is manufacturing, you know, this is nothing like a bespoke pieces, you know, this is just one of those like you know, replica uh, you know, whatsoever.
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:26.079
But I still, yeah, but I still have my hand over the respect on whoever was actually um molded into this shape of it because I there's still the elements of the community in there.
01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:35.519
I think that also helped to enhance my accessibility, you know, just to feel and touch the building because not everyone is able to afford all this luxury stuff.
01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:39.440
I mean, I love like uh customer furniture and you make it then.
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:47.599
Um I love all this commission other work, but I also truly even more uh love you know my 10 years old niece work.
01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:52.960
What's what's that what's the um well I love Xiaomi uh design, I really do.
01:00:53.119 --> 01:01:01.199
Yeah in my apartment in Shenzhen, I have my Xiaomi stir, I have my Xiaomi coffee maker, I have my Xiaomi uh water boiler, everything.
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:03.920
I love their design, so simple, so beautiful, so elegant.
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:08.000
And what's what's a muumu uh what's the uh the Japanese um company?
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:08.800
Muji.
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:09.599
Muji.
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:10.079
Yeah.
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:12.000
So simple, so elegant, so beautiful.
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:19.599
So it doesn't have to be expensive, but it there's an attentiveness to the proportion, to the composition, to the beauty of the element.
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:26.079
And you know, a lot of those things that are so beautiful and so simple, they took a long time to get it just right.
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:28.800
Now it's so easy to make it, but it took a long time to get it right.
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:37.039
And I think that you you so you're talking about connoisseurship, you're talking about the appreciation for craft, and also you're talking about uh your human experience of uh creative things.
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:38.000
It's a beautiful thing.
01:01:38.159 --> 01:01:40.719
We live in a created world, we have bodies, uh, may as well enjoy it.
01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:57.599
But sometimes I feel people feel like just kind of lost the touch with beauty, not just on its, you know, not just like the versory level, but I think it's more like you know, then intimate uh connection, like then very proactively literally in that connection with the object.
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:00.480
So it's kind of you know the affection of the object.
01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:11.199
But what I truly appreciate is like you recognize, you know, that exorbitant amount of the effort put in, shaping in that refinement, perfecting that details.
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:14.719
I think that's great segue into the next one with the profit machine.
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:16.719
I do wanted to share a spotlight on that.
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:26.000
I know you are a big advocate for it, you know, like the making is not just the act, but it's also the way of honoring, yeah, to the material, to the texture, everything.
01:02:26.079 --> 01:02:27.280
And you are maker.
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.239
You just said you think everything is teachable, right?
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:40.079
You think there's no such thing as sort of the inherent electrical talent, but I feel like we are kind of sometimes carry certain things, like in that kind of gilectic varying.
01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:42.079
Like myself, I just I'm not maker.
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:50.639
Dude say that there is a question of um completely sort of um basic interest or um basic appearance.
01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:51.360
This is the thing.
01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:53.840
I am I'm not I'm like not basic.
01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:55.199
I'm like so per I was so.
01:02:55.599 --> 01:02:56.480
But you could learn.
01:02:57.119 --> 01:02:58.719
You could you could you could be taught.
01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.199
I could teach you to basically you truly, yeah, yeah.
01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:05.679
Okay, let's say I'm probably gonna build a house one day.
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:11.519
Yeah, but that's really type into almost like the huge access in my life.
01:03:11.679 --> 01:03:13.199
It's like I can make things.
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:17.119
I mean, it's not like I'm dismissive about it, it's very on the contrary.
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:23.760
I told you like some broken record, I just such huge admirations on people professional like you, you can actually build.
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:25.840
That's something real, grounded, and tangible.
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:27.360
But I can't play basketball.
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:28.559
You can't play basketball.
01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:30.559
Yeah, I tried, my brothers can.
01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:33.840
I don't have a basic aptitude for playing sports.
01:03:33.920 --> 01:03:34.800
I'm terrible at it.
01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:37.599
I learned after a while not to like it because I can't, I couldn't do it.
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:40.159
Uh, something else can't do it, right?
01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:42.000
No, I tried, I tried it.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:43.199
You know what?
01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:44.320
I don't have that aptitude.
01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:46.239
Now, my brothers, here's a funny story.
01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:53.119
When I was a boy, I have three brothers, and um they you need to have four guys to play basketball, right?
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:53.920
Two and two, right?
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.000
So they're always like, okay, Terry, come on, play basketball.
01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:57.679
I was like, no, I don't want to play basketball.
01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:07.280
Because um I had a little workshop in the garage, and I was always making things and experimenting with things and taking the TV apart and taking things here and I was always that's what I like to do by myself.
01:04:07.360 --> 01:04:08.159
I was fine, very happy.
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:09.440
But my brothers they want to play.
01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:10.719
So, uh, we need a fourth.
01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:11.519
We need a fourth guy.
01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:12.320
Come on, Terry, come on.
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:14.159
And then I was like, no, I don't want to do it.
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:16.079
Mom, Terry won't play.
01:04:16.719 --> 01:04:18.239
Terry, go play with your brothers.
01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:19.599
And so I always had to go play.
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:21.679
But this one day I was just tired of it.
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:24.880
And I said to my mom, I said, okay, I will go play with them.
01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:31.440
But after that, they have to come and they have to come drawing and sit with me and draw for an hour, also.
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:36.239
And my mother said, no way, they they hate drawing.
01:04:38.559 --> 01:04:39.920
And how do you think I feel about playing?
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:43.280
Oh, I never thought of that.
01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:45.440
And then I didn't have to play anymore.
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:49.920
Why do we always want somebody to learn how to do what they're not what they're not interested in?
01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:53.679
Why not just if that's what you're attracted to, be great at it.
01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:54.079
Yeah.
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:56.480
Go, go, go, go get them, Tiger.
01:04:56.800 --> 01:04:59.280
Go go uh go learn how to do it.
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:03.280
But yes, I could learn to I can learn how to pay basketball, basically, yes.
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:04.320
But I I don't enjoy it.
01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:05.280
I'll never be good at it.
01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:06.239
I will never be good at it.
01:05:06.639 --> 01:05:19.519
If we tie back to the craftship, because uh actually I try to illustrate the point and there's certain things I just I really actually aspire to achieve like a master, it's just unfortunately I didn't have that aptitude.
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:21.119
Yeah, like the craftsmanship.
01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:26.159
I remember like you know, there was time I was um was kind of meandering the Oprah House, right?
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:36.880
And yeah, with someone, so I told him, I said, you know, like how people will think, oh well, you know, if I have any regret on my deathbed, I I said I kind of really hustle in my life, I don't have much of a regret.
01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:46.480
But if there's one regret in my life on my deskback, I think probably would be like I never actually make anything, I never be part of making something, you know, like Oprah House, right?
01:05:46.639 --> 01:05:56.000
So because I was filled, I was touched, you know, the material, you know, like I was looking at this magnificent shapes of yeah, you know, a story behind it.
01:05:56.079 --> 01:05:59.760
So again, it's not about like, oh, this is such a uh legendary.
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:02.079
Of the glory and sort of the building.
01:06:02.159 --> 01:06:10.880
I'm just saying I know, you know, then feeling of working with material, then process of the making, engaging with the you know, material, with the physical world.
01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:25.119
So I do wanted to kind of do a little bit digging into that, you know, about the craftsmanship, about the maker, because you also kind of, you know, I'm building on that, you raise up the concerns about the current architecturation, is kind of liking, you know, then craftsmanship, right?
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:28.960
And drifting to that formally then, yes, driven by the novelty.
01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:31.679
Yeah, so I do wanted to your insights on them.
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:35.760
Yeah, again, because you are expert in both design and also the making.
01:06:35.920 --> 01:06:38.239
Yeah, that's a golden opportunity.
01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:39.679
I think a lot about it.
01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:41.920
I don't know if I'm an expert, but I think a lot about it.
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:42.800
I do.
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:52.320
Um, so I would say probably the best story I can tell you is uh for a short time I was in Nigeria and I was when I was with these guys who carved this.
01:06:52.719 --> 01:07:16.079
So they took me for a uh trip to go cut down a tree, and um they told me that well, so what they do is they find the tree and then they um have a ceremony around the tree and they try to talk to the spirit of the tree, and they have some chanting and they try to familiarize themselves with the spirit of the tree, with the spirit of the tree, with the spirit of the tree, and then they chop it down.
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:18.800
That's so cruel.
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:31.119
And then, but when they take the piece of wood from that tree, they try to remember the spirit of the tree, and they try to let the spirit of the tree to move their hand as they are cutting through it.
01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:31.440
Yeah.
01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:43.760
So that their hand will uh so that the tree will become what it wants to be, and that they can the spirit will move them and inspire them to cut it in this way instead of that way.
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:54.800
I was so moved by this when I heard this because if you work, especially if you work with wood, wood has a beautiful smell to it sometimes, you know, and it also has a characteristic, you know, if you break, if you hold it this way, it breaks easy.
01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:56.480
If you hold it this way, it doesn't.
01:07:56.639 --> 01:08:00.800
It has uh every piece of wood is unique because it grew on its own, it's organic, right?
01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:08.559
Um so when you're cutting it, sometimes it will make the blade go this way because the the grain of the wood is pushing that way.
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:10.480
So it's not homogenous, right?
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:11.920
It has a feeling to it.
01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:16.319
There's a kind of dialogue that you have with the with the wood.
01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:20.319
So sometimes uh another example I can give is like if you're like paper, right?
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:23.920
So it if you do calligraphy, right, with uh Chinese calligraphy, right?
01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:45.279
You you take the calligraphy pen and you hold it like this, and you go plop, and then you move it, and you you have this interaction between your hand, the brush, the tip of the brush, and the paper, and you're watching the water as it absorbs and you're lifting it up right, and there's this kind of beautiful dialogue you're having with the materiality of the experience.
01:08:45.439 --> 01:08:47.439
And you don't, you're not thinking about your hand.
01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:52.720
You're in fact you're feeling the tip of the brush as if the brush is your arm.
01:08:52.800 --> 01:09:00.720
And there's a kind of loss of yourself in the immersing yourself into the materiality and the action that is going on.
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:08.000
And I think that this is this is a beautiful, beautiful way to also inhabit the world, but also to uh to think about craftsmanship.
01:09:08.239 --> 01:09:08.560
Wow.
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:16.239
I feel like I needed to go back, just reset everything you said because you know it's all this uh like the pool of sensations and the extension of presence.
01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:21.760
I couldn't really alkylate it, but today I feel like uh yeah, I you know the it's all unraveled.
01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:22.720
Yeah, exactly.
01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:28.560
That's the way I want to interact with the uh material materialism.
01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:32.640
Yeah, it's the feeling is attached, engaging you five senses, right?
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:36.159
First, and then maybe elevate it to that spiritual status.
01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:44.880
Yeah, but you're gonna have to first of all kind of almost like lay your guard off so you can actually open to physical material existence.
01:09:45.119 --> 01:09:51.600
Because particularly in in this modern world, everything is can be digitalized, can be, you know, just everything is kind of as your fingertips.
01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:52.960
So we'll also touch.
01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:57.840
I mean, I was also the sucker of the material, particularly I love wood and also the stone.
01:09:58.000 --> 01:10:11.199
So I mean sometimes like in the sense like the beauty is also like omnipresent once you have an eye on it, because the minute you walk out of the door, there's all this natural material, you know, that shapes yeah, around.
01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:15.279
Maybe you don't have to go to African to uh experience that too.
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:18.560
It's just like right now in the moment, right?
01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:28.960
Yeah, how you kind of decided to yeah, shape your experiences with it, you know, with that piece of the paper, as you said, yeah, carried by the you know, correctly or any kind of the craft.
01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:31.439
Yeah, that's truly wow compelling.
01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:49.039
So I guess maybe I want to, you know, additional question on that is like for us, like we are not like architect or designer, but we kind of, yeah, we try to apply a little bit of intentionality in there to further enhance our like registration with the beauty in the form of the architecture.
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:52.560
Yeah, do you have any advice like how we can further enhance it?
01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:56.640
Like, you know, like collection, because I personally am naturally registered with it.
01:10:56.800 --> 01:11:00.399
Yeah, I kind of you know, just a little bit in laid affinity into it.
01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:10.399
But then I just wanted to say to what extent it can be enhanced, as you said, that quality of experience and also multiplied and joy the architecture can bring to me.
01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:11.520
Do you have any advice?
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:12.960
Do I I mean a couple of things?
01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:14.000
I do, I do.
01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:16.159
I'm gonna, it's very simple, very simple.
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:17.680
Touch, touch, touch it, touch it.
01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:18.399
Touch the building.
01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:24.000
So I'm sitting at my desk here and I design, I so I built this, I designed all the furniture in my apartment.
01:11:25.039 --> 01:11:26.960
The top of my desk is made out of leather.
01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:29.119
And when I'm talking to you, I'm touching it.
01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:32.800
And the the legs are made out of maple, so it's real wood.
01:11:33.039 --> 01:11:38.479
See, if your desk is made out of plastic and it's not nice to touch, then you don't want to touch it.
01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:41.680
So touch, you know, when you you say you like the stone.
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:44.640
So the next time you go to the building, touch the stone on the wall.
01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:45.119
Touch it.
01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:45.760
Touch it.
01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:54.159
Um when I tell the when I talk to the students about designing a house, I say, okay, the front door is a very important thing to design, but not just the front door, but the handle.
01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:59.520
Because the handle is the first thing you it's only the only thing for many people that they will ever touch on the building.
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:02.000
So this is your first physical contact.
01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:04.159
So I'll give you a little bit of advice.
01:12:04.319 --> 01:12:07.039
You want to enhance your experience of the architecture, touch it.
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:09.199
Touch the wall.
01:12:09.680 --> 01:12:10.079
Touch the wall.
01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:10.479
Touch it.
01:12:11.199 --> 01:12:13.039
Be there, be there, feel be there.
01:12:13.279 --> 01:12:13.680
Be there.
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:14.239
Yeah.
01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:16.720
One one one uh simple.
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:29.439
It's getting a little late now, so um I think that uh I want to give you a chance to kind of uh uh land this airplane and uh we can uh maybe we can have another conversation at oh well okay.
01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:35.199
I must just very right now feel like my jaw is dropping and my my mind's blowing, you know.
01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:45.600
I know like I think emotionally feel a bit overwhelming because it's just so much I would say like the need gravity, but I I think it's gold in our conversation today.
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:48.479
Yeah, from your from you, from you, yeah.
01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:52.479
So I feel like this it's not just go beyond honor.
01:12:52.640 --> 01:12:57.439
Yeah, I think it's truly like serendipity and we kind of kind of you know connect to each other.
01:12:57.600 --> 01:13:01.680
Yeah, I mean, to pull out this conversation is absolutely one of the kind.
01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:07.920
I won't say it's once in a lifetime, but you know, in a sense once in a lifetime.
01:13:08.079 --> 01:13:15.359
But yeah, I just I already feel I'm kind of getting so much of the, you know, then just our emotions, yeah, the whole time.
01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:19.119
I truly truly believe once I send this conversation out, yeah.
01:13:19.199 --> 01:13:24.000
The audience, yeah, they they will connect it to it um different differently.
01:13:24.159 --> 01:13:27.199
But I think that is what I'm I mean to do it.
01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:43.119
I know I cannot build any building like any must building like that, but if I can be the like the messenger, you know, observer, just the keen listener in the world, yeah, to send a story like this, I'll I consider that's my mission is fulfilled.
01:13:43.279 --> 01:13:45.439
Yeah, I mean we're playing our part.
01:13:46.319 --> 01:13:54.960
Maybe my very last question coming full circle is like, do you believe our texture has the potential then connect to us to the greatness?
01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:58.479
You know, to something greater, bigger and larger.
01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:01.199
Well, you know what I think about that.
01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:03.760
Too easy.
01:14:04.319 --> 01:14:05.920
You're throwing me softball questions.
01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:06.239
Yes.
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:07.119
Of course I do.
01:14:07.279 --> 01:14:07.920
Of course I do.
01:14:08.079 --> 01:14:10.800
I don't know if anything I uh I have done.
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:16.159
I mean, I've certainly been in buildings that connect people to a sense of themselves, to a sense of the world.
01:14:16.319 --> 01:14:20.239
I think our architecture does have the possibility of bringing people together.
01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:24.159
Um architecture communicates values uh where we put our money.
01:14:24.479 --> 01:14:35.520
Uh if you think about this uh in Europe during the you know maybe for almost uh thousand years, uh the most important architecture was church buildings because that was the center of the community.
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:40.880
But now the most important buildings for architects now are museums or office towers.
01:14:41.359 --> 01:14:45.279
Uh so it's a big shift in the value and where where do we put our money?
01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:48.079
Where do we put uh where where do we expect to see beauty?
01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:51.840
Uh where do we expect to experience uh architectural form?
01:14:52.239 --> 01:15:01.279
And uh yeah, so yes, absolutely architecture can influence um our experience and uh can influence the culture, certainly, certainly it can, certainly, yeah.
01:15:02.399 --> 01:15:05.279
Obviously, you know that you know that I know that, yeah.
01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:10.000
Um thank you so much, Teresa.
01:15:10.079 --> 01:15:10.640
Thank you so much.
01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:17.840
Yeah, that's such a it's really my pleasure to talk with you and spend uh spend an hour or so uh chit-chatting and exploring some ideas.
01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:19.840
It's easy to talk about the philosophy.
01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:24.239
Uh I mean you have to read about, you have to you really have to discipline your mind and learn the vocabulary.
01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:25.359
But in the end, I'd like to see.
01:15:25.680 --> 01:15:26.560
You submitted it, right?
01:15:26.640 --> 01:15:31.279
I kind of tried very hard to learn that learn speak the language over the society and the philosophy.
01:15:32.479 --> 01:15:34.239
In the end, it's really hard work.
01:15:34.560 --> 01:15:44.800
And um you really have to believe you really have to want, you really have to want to do something good, and then be willing to uh not just have the desire, but also to have the discipline.
01:15:44.880 --> 01:15:48.640
And I think these are two very, very important distinctions desire and discipline.
01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:52.720
I desire to do greatness and I do I have to develop the discipline to do it.
01:15:53.600 --> 01:16:08.720
And um I think that this is uh fundamental because in the end, what what the the payback is is when you look at something you made and you say, Oh or you make something for somebody else and they go, oh um for me that's that's the reinforcement, you know.
01:16:08.800 --> 01:16:19.279
That that that's the pleasure it is to see that what I've done um can bring joy to somebody else and maybe make a maybe make a small uh contribution to a better world.
01:16:19.439 --> 01:16:19.680
Yeah.
01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:20.159
Yeah.
01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:23.119
I kind of really thank you for the opportunity to talk today.
01:16:23.279 --> 01:16:27.039
Yeah, but I do want to say the last word, just take care of yourself.
01:16:27.199 --> 01:16:33.199
Yeah, and I mean I'm so glad to hear now you're in this right place, you know, like on all the levels.
01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:33.840
Yeah.
01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:45.279
Yeah, there was gonna be turmoil like emotionally, is that we slightly, you know, one devil sometimes to kind of control, but overall I think person like you and also me, I think we're pretty much the same species there.
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:46.319
Yeah, we pursue it.
01:16:46.560 --> 01:16:48.640
Absolutely, I'm certain with the same species.
01:16:48.960 --> 01:16:49.680
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:50.960
We pursue beauty.
01:16:51.039 --> 01:16:55.039
We wanted to uh, you know, just add a meaning into our life and a value to the world.
01:16:55.119 --> 01:16:59.520
So I know persons like us are just bound to be, you know, live a good life.
01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:04.720
But end of the day is all about yeah, I I wish you the life of longevity and fraternity.
01:17:04.800 --> 01:17:05.680
I know you are living that.
01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:15.199
I just wish like you know, we are kind of cheerleaders to each other along the way because I know a journey sometimes can be lonely, can be, you know, growing.
01:17:15.680 --> 01:17:16.720
Yeah, debilitating.
01:17:16.880 --> 01:17:21.439
I always like just anticipated, oh my god, this you know, right now I feel so great, so good.
01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:23.439
I mean, who knows what is coming next.
01:17:23.520 --> 01:17:25.039
But not tomorrow morning.
01:17:25.199 --> 01:17:25.680
I don't know.
01:17:26.800 --> 01:17:28.880
Like I get you today, not the tomorrow morning.
01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:30.319
Yeah, exactly.
01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:32.479
But I think we will be fine.
01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:39.600
We are definitely will be fine because we have you know, like in all the resources today, shine through entire conversations.
01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:43.039
Yeah, and also personally I already see you as my mentor.
01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:56.479
I never have any mentor, so it's very arbitrary and you know, relatively because the way you interpret beauty and the you know meaning and also just the humanity piece.
01:17:56.640 --> 01:17:58.399
That's to this point.
01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:02.000
I personally hold you know the highest.
01:18:02.399 --> 01:18:04.319
Just trump everything else, you know?
01:18:04.479 --> 01:18:09.359
Yeah, the external approval or internal whatever is all goes down the humanity.
01:18:09.520 --> 01:18:13.119
So I'm so glad there's a good person like you in the world, yeah.
01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:14.720
So we can run it counters.
01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:19.439
Yeah, because the world sometimes just can be uh too bloody.
01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:20.239
Yeah.
01:18:20.479 --> 01:18:22.800
So we have to be stay strong, you know.
01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:24.239
We are the light in the world.
01:18:24.319 --> 01:18:25.119
We have to strengthen.
01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:33.359
Well, I wish you a happy spring festival and um have a lovely, lovely time with your family and friends.
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:38.960
Yes, and um, I hope that uh you invite me to come uh visit your podcast again.
01:18:39.199 --> 01:18:42.800
Yeah, also I wanted to invite you to come to China again.
01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:45.760
Would you ever personally maybe visit China?
01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:47.279
I was planning to go back to China.
01:18:47.439 --> 01:18:58.800
Um maybe I would be happy to come, but um I'm at a point in my life where I need a I I need uh somebody to uh invite me and to uh to have my uh I to pay for my airplane ticket.
01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:00.159
So yeah.
01:19:00.399 --> 01:19:01.920
I'm a retired man now.
01:19:02.000 --> 01:19:05.680
I I don't have any money, so I'm gonna have to uh oh that travel too far, yeah.
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:07.439
Um because Brooklyn is your home.
01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:09.680
Yeah, I mean, you know that Brooklyn's my home.
01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:10.880
Yeah, that attachment.
01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:12.560
Yeah, I miss my friends in China.
01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:14.000
I would like to go back and visit them.
01:19:14.079 --> 01:19:21.359
I just have to find uh I have to find somebody to invite me to do a lecture proof.
01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:25.119
Yeah, yes, the seeds already be planted.
01:19:25.359 --> 01:19:26.159
Yeah, thank you so much.
01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:27.840
Yeah, the hope is there.
01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:28.159
Thank you.
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.000
Good evening, and uh thanks again.
01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:30.880
Thank you, Teris.
01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:35.199
Yeah, uh yeah, I will once I put it, I finished, I'll let you know.
01:19:35.279 --> 01:19:35.600
Thank you.
01:19:36.319 --> 01:19:37.920
Yeah, we're talking basically soon.
01:19:38.079 --> 01:19:38.399
Thank you.
01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:46.640
Yeah, the year of the horse.
01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:52.800
I didn't really pronounce correctly, very process me.
01:19:54.079 --> 01:19:55.600
Yeah, please have a good name.
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:56.159
I'm so sorry.
01:19:56.560 --> 01:19:58.399
No, no, no, I'm just but I'm getting very tired.
01:19:58.880 --> 01:19:59.439
Yes, yes, yes.
01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:06.000
Okay, bye-bye, Sajam, bye bye.