S6: E4 Progress. Not Perfection.

WEBVTT
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Alright, listeners.
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Hey Mark.
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What's funny is that Mark and I are gazing into each other's eyes.
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In the lights are out.
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In the lights are out.
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We need all we need is a candle.
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We're just dipping coffee and staring at each other.
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What you can do.
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We just need some physical cheese.
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I'm not like a huge country guy.
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I like all country.
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Yeah.
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But I think but I can appreciate like singing and yeah.
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It would be so much fun to be a bass player in a band like this.
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Because we just it's it's it's easy.
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It's not crazy.
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Yeah.
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It requires talent and skill.
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But it's the bass that's driving this.
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You know, when you're not, I can hear it in the chorus, it's driving.
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Those chord progressions are so great.
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Alright, so we want to know.
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You've heard uh Bruno Mars, you've heard Marcy Playground.
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Yeah.
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What's this one in the style of?
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Did you give it an artist?
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I didn't even give it an artist.
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This is like new country.
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You just said country.
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This is a new country.
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New country's poppy.
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This is like uh 90s Alan Jackson, 90s country.
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Alan Jackson-ish.
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Yeah, Chris Stapleton sort of bringing this style back.
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Yes, I agree.
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I agree.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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I mean a lot of people too.
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I don't know enough enough country to start name-dropping.
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I don't know much about country.
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I like the Zach Brown band.
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You like Chris Stapleton too?
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Stapleton, really like him, yeah.
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Good stuff.
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Yeah, do you think this sounds like Zach Brown?
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No.
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Maybe.
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Maybe a little on one of his mellower tunes.
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Is this like colder weather?
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It's a little bit like colder weather.
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All right.
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Well done.
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I hear you.
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Okay, I'm gonna throwback to Koi Balls, baby.
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Yeah, Koi Balls.
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Is it like season two or three?
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Yeah, it was.
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Yeah, that was you being a hustler, entrepreneur, or reaching out and getting people, big time celebrities on our podcast.
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He literally stepped right off the stage from doing a keynote and I said, I have a podcast.
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Can you can you join us?
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But you know, he wasn't there to promote himself.
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He really wasn't.
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Right.
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If we didn't bring up what he was what he was providing, he would never have brought it up.
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Yeah, he was very humble.
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Great dude.
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Really good.
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Normal.
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In a world of abnormal people, he was a normal dude.
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And what was cool is you were talking to him about um uh punk and your first guitars and all that stuff, which was really great.
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Yeah, we both had ibenezes as our first instruments, which are great instruments.
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Great.
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What are we talking about today?
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I have a couple questions for you.
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Okay.
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Maybe our listeners can play along.
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All right, let's go.
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What band's breakup felt the most personal to you?
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Ooh.
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Smith's.
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Oh, that's a good one.
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Smith's.
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I they were only out for a matter of a couple years, I think it was three years.
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Yeah, prolific.
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Stevie and I were diehard fans.
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I mean, like the family, my my family was worried about me because they thought I was depressed.
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Yeah.
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Because I listened to so much, so like on record, I had to have collect everything.
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What's your favorite Smith song?
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Uh Headmaster's Ritual.
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Uh, it's a good one.
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Uh, there's a bunch that I like.
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I mean, how soon is now is obviously the most popular.
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Uh Johnny Mars guitar line and that is just insane.
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His guitar playing, uh his book is great.
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Johnny Marr's book is amazing.
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I saw um Modest Mouse, I don't know, 15 years ago.
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Yeah.
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He hopped in with him.
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And he was playing with him.
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Yep.
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And Eddie Vetter sang one of their songs.
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No kidding.
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's awesome.
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It was weird.
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He just happened to be at the show.
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And I guess when you're a celebrity, do whatever you want.
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Yeah.
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How about you for that one?
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Uh bands break up, Fugazi.
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Oh, Fugazi.
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When Fugazi was playing shows together.
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I was like, what?
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I never because I never got to see him.
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Yeah.
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All right, here's one.
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We've had vinyl, cassette, CD, MP3, and now streaming.
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What's an album that you've owned on all or most of those platforms?
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Counting Crows, August, and Everything After.
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That's a good one.
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I have.
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I had I think I have it on everything.
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Yeah.
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Minus 8-track.
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Yeah, I don't have A-Track.
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I forgot to mention that.
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It wouldn't apply.
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I mean, that was a good thing.
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It was fading when we were kids.
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I mean, it stopped early 70s, I want to say.
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Yeah.
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We had an A-Track player in a console stereo that we had, but I don't remember having any tapes.
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How about Pop Pop Pop Coons had one in his Chevy?
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I believe that.
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Could you imagine?
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No.
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Carrying around Atari games to play music.
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For me, it's the wall.
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I've owned the wall.
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And the Doors Greatest Hits.
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Yep.
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I've owned those.
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All right.
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What's a show as a kid or a teenager that you secretly watched but pretended you hated?
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As a teenager.
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Or kid.
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Or a kid.
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You didn't want to admit it, but you watched it.
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There was a cartoon called The Littles, and it was about they would they had these little creatures who lived underneath the floorboards of the house.
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I remember it.
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We are the Littles.
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That's again.
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I just I liked it.
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I've got to tell all the listeners are going to think less of me now.
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But it's not true.
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For me it was 90210.
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I never admitted that I watched that show, but I secretly watched it.
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See, you're confident right now.
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Yeah, I don't care.
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Sega or Nintendo?
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Nintendo.
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All right.
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I I think I'd pick Sega.
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My brother was a Sega.
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Super Mario Brothers.
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I I it's a really great memory, actually.
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Yeah.
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Right when it came out, it was sold out.
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Like the cabbage patch dolls were sold out.
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Yeah.
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And my uncle Walt lived in New Jersey, Bluesbury, New Jersey.
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He was able to get a console for us, brought it in for Christmas.
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And I have that memory of hooking up Mario Brothers and just playing that through the Christmas break.
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We had everything, but my brother was old Nintendo.
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Had Sega Genesis.
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He had Sega, Sega Genesis, and Sega CD and all these other things.
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Yeah.
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And so because he was my older brother, I remember thinking that Sega was cooler because it's what he liked.
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All right.
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Last one.
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Okay.
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These are good questions, by the way.
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Baggy pants or tight rolled cuffs?
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Baggy pants.
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And I love, I did.
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Did you ever tight roll?
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I'm gonna admit, no, uh no, I I don't know what tight rolling is.
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I know what it is.
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I know what it is, but I I did not.
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I was more of a jams guy.
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Jams, yeah, yeah.
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Remember jams, and skids?
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And skids.
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I actually wore skids to a semi-formal uh like plaid baggy pajamas.
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It was back uh again, mighty many boss tone era kind of thing.
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Yeah.
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I had a lot of Jenkos.
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Did you have Jenkos?
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No.
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Baggy jeans?
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No, I didn't.
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Like super, super wide bottom.
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Not bell bottoms because the whole pant was wide.
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Yeah.
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It was like what like you would wear if you were in like corn or something like that.
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You know what I mean?
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Or like if you saw Jenkos, you would know like the bottoms of the jeans would get all frayed.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I had a chain wallet.
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We had a Did you ever have a chain wallet?
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I never had a chain wallet.
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That wasn't my thing.
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Did you ever wear a jacket with a band name on the back?
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Of course.
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I had the jacket with patches all over it.
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I could picture that.
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Bad religion, face-to-face.
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Okay.
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I know.
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Might anybody boston to mention them for the 15th year.
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I might have had a members-only jacket.
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Members only.
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That would actually you would be a Brooklyn hipster if you had a members-only jacket now.
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I know.
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Hey, last episode we talked about one of my pop's uh rules.
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It was um bad news doesn't get better with age.
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Right.
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Okay.
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I want to talk about another one.
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Let's hear it.
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The price of perfection is never worth the cost.
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The price of perfection is never worth the cost of the cost.
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I'm digesting that first.
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No, no, no, of course.
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The price of perfection is never worth the cost.
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How does that hit you?
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I have some thoughts.
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Of course, there's an article.
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But how does that hit you?
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So this makes me think of my son.
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Because he's a perfectionist.
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Uh very, very smart.
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Uh he's now 23.
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Yeah.
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But going back through school, through the K-12 education, he it either had to be his assignments, his homework, his tests, either had to be perfect or nothing.
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So teachers didn't always get him.
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They didn't understand where he was coming from.
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And he would honestly either get a hundred or a zero.
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Yeah, I understand.
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That that he'd rather not turn it in.
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And that's the first thing I think about because when you say perfection, I think about this.
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And it frustrates me so much because I want to be like, do the best you can and just hand it in.
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But his best is perfection.
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Okay, can we can we push this to um thinking about our team?
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Okay.
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So our leadership teams, and we're sitting down with a project.
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We want that project to be the best it can.
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Yeah.
00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:04.720
Is how does perfect fit in here?
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Because as a leader, as a top-level leader, Mark, you want it to be high quality.
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Yeah.
00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.759
But there's a difference between absolutely perfect.
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Like, how do you measure that?
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Yeah.
00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:17.279
So let's let me put my tech director hat back on.
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I was a tech director at one point.
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And there's a concept in technology, like development, right?
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You talk to your data designers, your program developers, your app developers, your project managers.
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And it doesn't have to be a technology project, but technology people think this way, but it applies to everything.
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Anybody that has something do.
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And if you have a job, you usually have something due.
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And the concept is when you're working on something agile development or waterfall development.
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Have you heard of those two?
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I have not.
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Okay.
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That's that's new.
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So if Greg Coons is working on a project and he has a waterfall mindset, he waits until it's done and pushes the whole thing over the finish line or over the waterfall and sees how it falls.
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:04.879
Okay.
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Without testing or anything.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.440
Well, he might be testing on the back end, but you don't release it to users, let's say.
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:10.000
I see.
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Until it's done.
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I see.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:13.360
I see where you're.
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:29.519
Agile development is I'm going to release pieces of it piecemeal and get feedback from those users as I build it, or I'm going to release it piecemeal or patchwork, knowing that it's not fully developed and with the full disclosure to everyone that it's not complete.
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But I'd rather get it out there to get people using it to get some feedback and to also get some traction and credibility and make adjustments along the way.
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That's called agile development.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:40.720
Let me ask you a question though.
00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:41.919
Can you use both?
00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:42.480
Of course.
00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:49.679
Like so if you start with the waterfall method and then you use the other to test it out along the way and its implementation stages.
00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:53.519
Because I'm thinking about one of the companies we worked with is writing IEPs.
00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:58.720
And I know they would have stakeholder meetings where you'd sit down and like, what if you had a snapshot?
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:04.879
I remember asking the person having, could there be a snapshot that shows the student at a glance, kind of a thing?
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:06.240
And that's what it became.
00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.200
Yeah, you know, it could also, it doesn't have to be a tech project.
00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:12.960
Like imagine you're writing a report for your boss, you're doing a PowerPoint presentation.
00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.919
A simpler analogy could be I just put an hour of work into these slides.
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.679
I'm going to send them to my boss and have them take a quick look to see if I'm on the right track.
00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:23.360
Agile development.
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:28.639
Waterfall, I'm going to spend all weekend and send my boss something on Monday with the hope that it's right.
00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.879
And if it's not, I the whole thing went over the waterfall and I got to pull it back up.
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:35.039
And that could be messier.
00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:35.679
Correct.
00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:36.399
Much messier.
00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.120
And it doesn't, I don't know that agile is always better.
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.720
I think when you make the comparison like this, you'd say, well, why wouldn't you do agile?
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:43.039
Right.
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.080
There are plenty of reasons why you wouldn't do agile all the time.
00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.000
In some cases, you're the expert, and the people that you're working with don't want feedback.
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.440
They just want you to make executive decisions or they don't have the expertise.
00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:53.759
True.
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.159
So they're counting on you to deliver the project.
00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:06.480
Something I like about the agile piece is that if you're there with a team, they all have different perspectives, different insights, insight on what on that project.
00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:08.159
And I think that goes a long way.
00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:09.840
Especially if you're wordsmithing.
00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.879
If you're talking about like you said, use the example of presentations.
00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.440
That would be I I like that strategy there.
00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.960
I'd rather know that my boss doesn't like the fonts, the colors, the format, or the storytelling before I spend all weekend.
00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:22.399
Agreed.
00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:22.879
Right?
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:27.360
I'd rather start over than have to invest all that time and energy, right?
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.120
Anyway, so as you think about this, the price of perfection, why why do I bring that up?
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.279
Agile would be the price of perfection.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:36.559
Like keep moving.
00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:37.919
Let me see what you got.
00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:39.200
Don't wait for perfection.
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.639
Don't wait for the waterfall moment for people to see what you've got.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:48.480
Better to get something out field tested and out there in the hands of your users and your customers.
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.799
Unless it's a catastrophe.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:55.919
A consequence of Agile is that you release something that's so bad that you lose trust and credibility.
00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:57.759
People might say, This is so bad.
00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.840
I I don't ever want the next time this person sends me a PowerPoint, I'm not going to open it.
00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.879
And the next time this company releases an app, I'm not going to buy it.
00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:06.799
So you have to be careful.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:09.679
Yeah, you absolutely do.
00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:11.039
And I was thinking about some projects.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:18.799
I I know I I was just thinking about a project that we failed on in uh it was a couple leadership positions ago.
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.240
And it was it was tough to admit that it wasn't quality.
00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:32.639
And that the in our case, listeners, we provide we put services together for our districts to benefit our districts and ultimately for the students in the programs.
00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:38.399
Uh in this case, we were putting together like a curriculum, yeah, an alternate curriculum for special education.
00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:39.440
And it wasn't good.
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:40.399
It was not good.
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:42.080
And we brought stakeholders in.
00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.000
We brought we brought from all of the districts.
00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:45.200
So you did do agile?
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:50.080
We we we brought it in along the way, but it was a waterfall when it was done.
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:51.600
And the waterfall was not good.
00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:52.480
It was a dud.
00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.360
You rolled it out to your customers and they said it wasn't what we asked for.
00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:55.759
Yep.
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.559
I find that if you take too long developing a project here or in this industry.
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:01.039
Yes.
00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:07.919
So if you say to your districts, let's say, you say to your customers, what is it that you want, and they give you an example.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:12.639
Greg, we want you to build this curriculum, and then it takes you a year and a half to do it.
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.519
By the time you roll it out, they've already found something else and they have a set of different problems.
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:19.039
You understand what I'm saying?
00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:19.519
I do.
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.320
There's a whole time there's a time timing to this as well.
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:30.480
And so if instead of waiting a year and a half to get it out, knowing that they needed it a year and a half ago and they've moved on, nobody can wait a year and a half to solve a problem.
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:31.039
No.
00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:38.240
It's better maybe to say, all right, well, what if we get you this in three months and then we get you another thing in six months and then another thing in nine months, right?
00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:39.360
Like it's another approach.
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:40.320
Yes.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:47.919
Greg, uh, an article that um listeners can Google is called The Hidden Cost of Perfectionism and Perfectionism in Leadership.
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:51.440
It's from the mind solution, full attribution to them.
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:54.559
Not for this concept, but just for some of the things we're gonna steal from here.
00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.480
Um their position, I'm gonna read a couple lines here.
00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:07.919
It says perfectionism is about trying, excuse me, it's about tying yourself worth to how perfect you appear to others.
00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:14.080
So it's not that you're actually worried about it being perfect, you're worried about whether other people see it as perfect.
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:15.519
It's public perception.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:16.399
Yeah, I think so.
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:16.799
Yeah.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:17.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.200
And then, of course, there's some things in here about the hidden cost to perfectionism.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:29.120
They have something that says, How perfectionism shows up in leadership, and there's a couple of bullets struggling to delegate because you think no one will do it as well as you.
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:32.799
You're so perfect, how could anybody else do it?
00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.799
So I'm just gonna keep it on my plate.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.000
See this a lot.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:39.519
We see this a lot with top-level leaders, too, like at the cabinet level.
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:39.759
Yeah.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:41.600
Yeah, you gotta delegate, baby.
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.919
Delegating also creates capacity and builds capacity and leadership abilities and others.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.679
Um taking on too much and saying yes when you should say no, right?
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:52.639
Because if I say no, I won't be perfect.
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.559
Over preparing for meetings and presentations, even when you know your stuff.
00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:04.320
Constantly second guessing your decisions, fearing you'll get it wrong, afraid that you have to keep that perfect streak alive.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:09.519
Feeling like you have to prove yourself every single day, even though you've already earned a seat at the table.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:15.200
I don't know, that one I feel like maybe there's a for me, that one that resonates a little bit with me.
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:20.720
I but to the contrary, like I mean, at some point you gotta have a healthy dose of defensiveness and fear.
00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:27.120
Not in a catastrophic way, but like you know, like if you get too complacent, someone's coming for you.
00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:28.240
Oh, definitely.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:28.720
Definitely.
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:31.519
You need you need to bring some quality to the table.
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:31.919
Yeah.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.240
So it I like what they put here right at the end, Mark.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.799
It says, but here's the good news perfectionism isn't who you are, it's a pattern.
00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:42.879
One you've learned over time, and like any pattern, it can be unlearned.
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.000
Yeah, let's go back to the last episode about people telling you the truth.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:55.200
So if you're a perfectionist and your colleagues don't tell you that this perfectionism of yours is causing you harm, they're not doing you a um not doing you a favor.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:56.720
No, they're not helping you at all.
00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:57.039
No.
00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.600
Have you uh and I don't mean this like in a flip moment, I'm serious.
00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:03.679
Have you ever been have you ever been caught in a perfectionist cycle?
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:04.960
Oh, definitely.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.720
For me, it's emails.
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.160
If I'm I don't like to send emails, I'm not an email guy.
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:18.640
And so when I email everybody, all users, or email the superintendents or the board, I get anxiety if I have typos and things in my communications.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:19.920
Even though nobody cares.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:25.519
It's for me, it it it is a it's not about perfection, it's about professionalism.
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:33.599
And so I'm I can easily admit that I overobsess on writing that will be seen by lots of people.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.880
We had a board uh member uh in one of my previous jobs.
00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.960
He was great before any um board meeting.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:44.559
He'd go through the whole agenda with me.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:44.720
Yeah.
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:54.160
And if he saw something that wasn't grammatically correct or misleading looking at that, he would he would say to me, He said, He said, Greg, we're an educational institution.
00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:55.680
We need to practice what we preach.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.799
So he was holding you to a perfectionist standard to some degree or to a my word now, professional standard.
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:02.160
That's a professional standard.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:03.279
I that's the way I saw it.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:03.599
Yeah.
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.119
I'm the same way with emails, and it depends on who I'm sending it to.
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.400
It also I just in general, I don't like to have any typos.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:11.759
That that drives me crazy.
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:12.000
Yeah.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:13.599
I mean, if you're gonna send it to a thousand employees.
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:14.480
That's the thing.
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:20.799
With at work, you know, a thousand employees, like uh even if it's a Christmas message, like a holiday message or a thank you message.
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:25.359
Two words, you forgot a comma, there's an extra and I usually have one or two other people read it.
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:25.920
Yeah, right.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:26.880
Before I send it out.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:29.920
That's where I see perfectionism with me.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:37.119
Though I think I have a very high tolerance for failure for myself and for others, and that might be to a fault as well.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.119
Like if something doesn't work out, um Do you beat yourself up over it?
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:41.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:43.039
You don't lose sleep over.
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:43.759
No, I do.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:44.880
I internalize it though.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.440
Like I don't I don't externalize my frustrations.
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:52.480
I internalize them, and I say to myself, if I were a better leader, that person wouldn't have failed.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.480
Yeah, but that's yeah, there's no can that that's out of your control.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:57.519
There's some way to do it.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:58.880
No, but the feeling influence.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:18:59.200
Yeah.
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:01.119
But the feeling is you take that to heart.
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:02.079
I personalize it.
00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:02.960
You personalize it.
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:04.240
I I I hear you.
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:10.000
I apply my frustrations or not with people, but with outcomes on myself.
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.160
That's a good reflection right there.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.559
And they give you some thought exercises.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.160
Imagine walking into a meeting without second guessing yourself.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:42.480
But I can imagine that a lot of people do second guess themselves, particularly if they work in an environment where they're criticized, or where there's a lack of trust, or where it's hostile, or where they're dismissed, or where there's some ism, sex ism, race ism, age ism.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:55.200
I would be second guessing myself if every if everything I said was looked at with suspicion or animosity or frustration, or if it was dismissed.
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.960
So you're kind of saying it it depends on an environment you create as a leader.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:01.519
Or the environment that's that you live in.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:02.799
Is it a safe environment?
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.759
Yeah, because like imagine if you're not the big boss, right?
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:07.519
And your boss is a jerk.
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:08.400
Oh, and you're not gonna be able to do it.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:23.920
Um imagine trusting your teams to deliver without micromanaging every detail.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.039
I feel I do I feel I do that now.
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:28.160
Wait, but you're blessed, right?
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:28.559
I'm blessed.
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.240
We have these amazing people that work in our organization that they don't need to be micromanaged.
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.920
And when I do feel, if I ever do feel that, I let them know.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:36.480
Yeah.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.960
Have you ever been micromanaged in a previous role?
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:39.519
Yes.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:40.559
Awful, right?
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:41.200
The worst.
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:42.559
How does that make you feel, right?
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.759
You feel like you can't be trusted, that you're not a professional, right?
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.160
It it makes me feel all those kind of things.
00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:50.720
And the best thing I can equate it to is a math problem.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:55.839
Because the way you know we talk about whether you're talking about new math or whatever they're teaching the kids these days.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:01.839
Um if you get to the right outcome, it it doesn't matter how you got to it.
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.799
Like and that's what I like, the creativity of how you can get to the same solution in a different way.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:11.519
Yeah, and then you might have a boss who feels no, it's it needs to be the way I want you to do it.
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:16.720
Yeah, and that's their own insecurities coming out in their interactions with their it's it's all projections, by the way.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:17.359
Yes.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:27.039
Imagine ending your work day feeling proud of what you've accomplished instead of being drained and doubting yourself.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:27.920
I don't know.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:33.279
I uh whether you're a perfectionist or not, I feel like I have days where I leave energized and days where I feel defeated.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:34.559
It just depends on the day.
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.519
Yeah, I don't think that that one has anything to do with perfectionism, quite frankly.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:39.440
Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug.
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:40.559
Yeah, amen to that.
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:41.119
Right?
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:41.440
Yeah.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:42.960
And yeah, it it just depends.
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:51.440
I mean, we and we talk about if we talk to this in in in the perspective of students, there are some students who, you know, they they don't hear any good things all day.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:52.640
You know, kind of a thing.
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.519
So they're they're dwelling on those net those negatives.
00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:01.599
Teachers, yeah, they might teach have six of their the classes that went really well and one that didn't go well.
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:01.839
Yeah.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:03.839
And they're thinking about the one that didn't go well.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.240
I mean, that that's that's just human nature, I would say.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:13.759
Yeah, and it's like a it's a des a desire to get better and to improve is not necessarily a perfectionist.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.039
Or that's not necessarily perfectionism, right?
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:17.440
Right.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.240
I think perfectionism is when it prohibits or inhibits you from moving forward.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:28.559
And it might be seen as obstinence or procrastination or defiance, right?
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:42.000
Maybe not to speak, but to go back to your example, your son, a teacher who's not getting an assignment from your son might assume he's lazy, he's disorganized, correct, he's insubordinate, he's defiant, he's careless, all the things that you know are not true.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:59.920
All of these but you know they're not true, as his father, but because he I'm not again, I don't know anything about your son's situation, but like if I were to extrapolate what you're saying, the impression that could be given for someone who's paralyzed by perfectionism could be those things in the eyes of someone who doesn't take time to get to know the person.
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:00.559
Right.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.160
And coach them and give them a way to turn it in.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:05.920
Well, why don't you just turn in page one?
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.319
Well, why don't you just turn in page one and two now?
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:12.000
And that's where my wife and I c come in and thank God you're educators though.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:13.039
And the thing exactly.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.799
If you weren't educators, would you know that?
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:15.200
No.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:17.119
No You would say turn your homework in.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.519
So there's this whole communication piece to it.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.880
So I'm thinking of teams too.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:33.759
Like, so in this kind of case, if you set up a project and you're perfect it's you're perfectionist, you need some kind of a mechanism, whether it be a check-in or something with that team to get that to the to the end end lone end line, you know?
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.799
My wife always says something, and I'm not sure where she got it.
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:44.319
Maybe she made it up, but I I assume other people say this too, uh, because it's just so universally true, right?
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.440
When we're talking about our kids, you know, and the trials and tribulations of being a parent.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:53.039
She always says to me, progress, not perfection.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:55.519
That's a that's good it's a great old saying.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.200
That I mean she always says it to me.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.119
Like when we're thinking about like and and you know when we say it?
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:03.119
We don't say it when the kids fail.
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.519
We say it when the kids succeed.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.799
And we say, look at that, they're making progress.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:09.440
Right?
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:21.519
Like let's let's I think her point is let's celebrate those small wins that happen every day instead of waiting for the perf the perfect win.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:22.319
Right?
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:23.519
That's how I interpret it.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:25.680
Celebrating the small wins kind of a thing.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:33.119
Yeah, celebrate the progress as your kids become more mature as they turn into adults, as they so anyway, the shout out to my wife there.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:35.119
I that's something that I think of regularly.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:36.720
And it's it's so true.
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:37.599
So true.
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:38.640
Gregory.
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:39.519
Yes, Mark?
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.880
I think that is season six, episode four in the books.
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:43.359
Wow.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:44.480
We are moving along here.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.960
I can't wait to see what artificial music you have in store for episode five.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.480
Always a pleasure, brother.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.359
Yes, always a pleasure.
00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:52.640
So say we wrap this up.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:53.680
Okay, here we go.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:24:59.200
It was a different one.
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:00.720
There's a party foul.