Bill Bernhardt Demands Truth & Justice for Superman’s Creators

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Hello and welcome to Incverse Algorithm, the Writer's Pod.
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And I've got a hell of a writer with me today, Mr.
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Bill Bernhard.
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And he's got a new book I can't wait to dive into with him, The Superman Wars.
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Welcome aboard, Bill.
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Thanks for making time.
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Thank you for having me.
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It's good to be here.
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If you're on video YouTube, you see Bill's decked out in Superman Swag.
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Well, like I was telling you before, this is this is actually my 67th published book, but none of the others gave me cosplay opportunities.
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So I'm going to make the most of this one.
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Yeah, that's terrific.
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And I want to dive into your oove, which is deep and comprehensive, and you cover off on everything from detective thrillers to teaching writers how to write.
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Yes.
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So that's gonna be some juicy stuff.
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But for starters, let's talk about the story of Mr.
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Jerry Siegel.
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A lot of people know about Stan Lee.
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And Stan Lee was working for like 10 bucks an hour and created Spider-Man and a host of characters that ended up with billions of dollars of revenue.
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And Stan Lee had issues being recognized, being compensated, and his story is fairly well known.
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But to your point, I don't think too many people even know who Jerry Siegel is, let alone all the backstory around Superman.
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Can you enlighten us and turn us on to your book?
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Well, there'd be no Stan Lee without Jerry Siegel, or for that matter, Jack Kirby or anybody else, because Jerry was the first.
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He created the world's first superhero and basically invented a new genre.
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And this is when he was still a kid, uh an 11th grader in Cleveland during the Depression.
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He had always been a very precocious reader and writer, sending things out.
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He was getting stuff published when he was still a one-digit age.
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And that's the only reason we know who Superman is today, because he just kept pushing and pushing.
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His original idea went through a lot of iterations, uh, but he eventually came up with the version we all know and love, the Kryptonian who came to Earth and does good things for people.
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He ran across town and got his best friend Joe Schuster, who was an artist to draw it, spent years because Jerry wanted a newspaper comic strip.
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At that time in the 30s, newspaper strips were hugely popular.
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Comic books didn't start till 35, and they were considered kind of, you know, scruffy and kind of low rent until Superman comes around.
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And after years, when Jerry can't get a newspaper, and he's approached every syndicate there is and he can't get a deal, so he finally agrees to let Superman be published by a person he knew, a man named Major Nicholson, former cavalry officer and writer, who he'd done work with in the past, and he trusted him.
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He was a writer himself.
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He knew he cared about the problems of authors and artists.
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That's who he thought he was getting in bed with.
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But unfortunately, literally in the weeks prior to the release of Superman, the company is assumed.
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The details are all in my book, but basically it's taken over by Harry Donnenfeld, Mob Connections, Rum Runner during Prohibition, indicted twice for pornography.
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His main interest was he wanted to take his publishing operation into some business that wouldn't get him thrown into prison.
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So comic books seem like a safe deal.
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He had no idea what was coming because within weeks, Superman debuts, April 18, 1938, is an overnight sensation.
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Harry Donnenfeld is a millionaire before one year has clocked between all the books and their over 200 merchandising licenses and whatnot.
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And Jerry and Joe made some money, but nothing like that.
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The problem is they found that when they signed, you know, the release so that they could get paid, there was a clause which said the rights to all the characters in this story go to the company.
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And that's how they lost control of it.
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So they got published, but lost control of the character.
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And you are also an attorney by trade.
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So this makes you uniquely qualified to get into the down and dirty as to what exactly went wrong and its implications.
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Well, that was one of the first things that drew me into it.
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I knew a little bit about this story, but not nearly all there was to know.
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And I kept thinking, 70 years of litigation?
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What takes 70 years?
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I've had cases that went a long time, but not 70 years.
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So I start and I couldn't find a good explanation.
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I think sometimes for people who, you know, haven't been through law school and all that, start reading pleadings.
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Or endure getting sued.
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Yeah, yeah, or that.
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Yeah, exactly right.
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Uh it can be kind of baffling.
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So I thought, well, I can straighten that out.
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But of course, that would be boring if you don't know the people involved.
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And so I started taking a broader look, and this ended up being Jerry Siegel's story, because I wanted people to understand not just what happened, but why.
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And to get that, you need to understand who who Jerry was, you know.
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Not a not a great businessman, not as savvy as he could have been, uh, but somebody who always stood up and and fought, even you know, when it didn't work out for him very well.
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No points against him.
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You know, bright lights cast long shadows were all imperfect.
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Nicola Tesla, the inventor, died destitute in a New York hotel room.
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Right.
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After everything that he did.
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So having creative ability and business acumen, sometimes they converge, but not always.
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Yeah, almost never, I think.
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And in Jerry's case, he'd lost his father when he was 17.
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Uh, he didn't have an agent, he didn't have a lawyer.
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Joe's father ran the uh was an elevator operator at a local hospital, so they had no one to advise them.
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And you can see there's 10 years of just painful to read correspondence between Jack Liebowitz, the accountant that Harry Donnenfeld put in charge of day-to-day operations, and Jerry, because Jerry's always, you know, come on, uh, we created this guy, give us a little more.
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And Jack's, no, I'm a businessman and we're running a business.
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And he's just abusive.
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You know, he's already got the cards in his deck, but he's mean, he's insulting, he's infantilizing.
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He keeps calling Jerry and Joe the boys, even when they're like in their mid-twenties, as a way of putting them in their place.
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He constantly threatens to fire them, even though they supposedly have a 10-year employment agreement.
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I don't know what the value of that is when the boss keeps threatening to fire you.
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And they're the creative force behind the content.
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None of that would exist if it wouldn't be for their ideation and wherewithal.
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That's exactly right.
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Reminds me a lot of Elvis and his manager, frankly, that kind of dynamic where you have the business guy with the whip and the chain, and then you have the creative dynamo who's pretty much out to lunch with regard to what we would consider real-world contingencies.
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Right.
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So Jerry finally, I mean, he he was drafted.
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He served in World War II.
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Uh, but when he comes back in 1946, he finds all kinds of problems at home and at business.
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His wife apparently had not been paying their taxes, comes home to find he owes$22,000 and back taxes.
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Plus, the comic company has totally taken over the Superman operation, including hiring his friend Joe to come in-house.
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And uh worse, they've published a script.
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He never sold them, an idea he had for Superboy, a new character, sort of uh Superman when he's younger in a rural setting, playing pranks with his powers and that kind of thing.
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Uh, they rejected it three times, but then when he was overseas and couldn't do anything about it, they ran the story anyway.
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And and it was popular and it led to a series.
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So Jerry is just furious at this point and finally files suit in 1947.
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In response, the company fires both he and Joe, don't send them any more work.
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And as if that weren't enough, they remove Siegel and Schuster's credits from the feature.
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Up to then, every Superman story said created by Siegel and Schuster.
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After that, apparently Superman was just spontaneously generated because there's no credit.
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Even when they reprinted stories that had appeared before, they colored over the names.
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I mean, that's just petty and purposeless.
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And to my we could argue about the legalities all night long.
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Yes, Jerry made mistakes.
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He could have handled things better, but taking their names off their own creation, that is just morally and ethically wrong.
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Power is power, and and as Nietzsche said, human all to human.
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These weaknesses manifest, especially when there's a lot of money and influence involved.
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And to give a creative artist even a little bit of credit is for some people to give the whole show to them.
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Look, we owe it all to you.
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And I'm just a tool for distribution and publishing.
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And by firing them and mistreating them, they they took control and they took ownership.
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And for some people, I mean that that that makes for a great day, but to your point, it's morally reprehensible.
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And as a creative person myself, it's outrageous.
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The lesson I take from this, though, is as a creative person, listeners and viewers, Inc.
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vs Algorithm, uh, we're not talking about AI now, we're talking about shady business practices.
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So ensure that your contract is buttoned up.
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Bill, you're a successfully published author, more than 60 books.
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So I'm sure you've had your adventures.
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But as a lawyer, I'm sure you double you double check what you're getting yourself into.
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And I think that's a smart best practice for creative people.
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Of course.
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And and everyone should.
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And this is why I think this book is so timely.
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Uh, even if you don't care about comic books or Superman, it's still a very relevant story because this conflict between art and commerce is still very much with us.
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And commerce always seems to win.
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I don't care what people are doing, whether you're writing, you're painting, you're creating original content for YouTube, you've got to protect yourself or you will be robbed.
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That's just the world we live in.
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I think you know I host uh an annual writer's conference.
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It's called WriterCon.
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And we do some smaller programs as well.
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But one of the things I always try and emphasize is, yeah, of course, learn to write, learn about the business, but most importantly, make friends.
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Meet other people in the same situation you are that you can call on when you've got a question, or people who uh, you know, might know something you don't.
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If you're going into traditional publishing and dealing with the New York guys, get an agent because that's their job to take care of you.
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And that is just so important and still important today.
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Links below, folks, for WriterCon.
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And I'd love to follow up with you if you're into it and uh see see uh what the sessions were like and what kind of feedback you got.
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I think providing a resource for writers is just so central.
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Writing is a very ostensibly introverted pursuit.
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You're in your own head, you're creating your own content, and writers tend to aggregate around that mood and that feeling that, hey, all the work that I do is just in creating the content and then let the world take it from here.
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But that's not a good idea for all the reasons that you mentioned, exemplified by Jerry's story, which is the extreme version of this.
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Yeah, I get email from people every day because they've gotten an email or they found a website, somebody's approached them and they went, is this a scam?
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Is this for real?
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And it's hard to tell, particularly with AI.
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Let me tell you, I waited through, I'd guess, around 10 emails this morning, somebody trying to either get my contact info or my money.
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And they were all credit.
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I mean, they've clearly their AI has either listened to an interview or scanned the book because they know all about Superman.
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Yeah.
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And and, you know, they're just trying to rip people up.
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For that matter, there are big name publishers that have lines that are basically just vanity presses.
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Take your money, give you back nothing.
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Uh, there's all kinds of scams out there.
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And here's here's another link to put in your show notes.
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Give them a link to Writer Beware, because it's a great website and it tracks some of these scams that are targeting writers.
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The irony is that AI is getting so good at digging into our content and really often getting to the heart of what we're about, and yet it's coming from the scammers.
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Yeah.
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I'm waiting for legit advertisers and legit platforms to understand us and prioritize the algorithm so we rank better for the audiences who do care about our content.
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Isn't that the paradox that the trailblazers in using AI for precision targeting are the scam artists?
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That's that's kind of sad, and presumably that's an early precedent, too, with all the other technology.
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Yeah, I'm sure things will.
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I mean, AI is new, and nobody really, I'm sure there probably are some useful purposes for it.
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I don't really know what they are, but the generative AI, the thing that makes up stories or videos or whatever, we already have creatives and they don't need to be competing with an algorithm.
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Let the I mean, yeah, AI can do grunt work that nobody wants to do, fine, but keep them out of creative stuff.
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I agree, but the Venn diagrams are slipping over each other.
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And one of the common themes on this podcast and my other podcast, the science fiction fantasy factory, is creatives duking it out with AI.
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And the other point that's beneath, and in a sense, throughout all of this, to your point, is being ripped off.
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So the AIs, in order to do their generative AI, are literally taking copyrighted material for free, ingesting it into their large language models, chopping it up into tokens, doing the waiting relationships, and then barfing it back out, and they're making all the money.
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They're getting billions in investor capital.
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And what about the real humans who created the real content feeding these machines?
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Right.
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Who now want to charge me a fee to use their algorithm?
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And I'm like, shouldn't you be paying me a fee?
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Because I think you scanned my books.
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You scann my books.
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It's like you're using my content and now I'm paying you 20 bucks a month for what?
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Right.
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Right.
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Now you you probably you know about the anthropic lawsuit, which you know, I'll give them credit.
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At least they have set some money aside to pay writers and you know, have implicitly acknowledged that they should not have done what they did.
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But there are a lot of companies out there who haven't even done that.
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I think that got anthropic off the hook.
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You know the power of a settlement as an attorney.
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Sure.
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So they are morally and financially done with it, and yet the practice continues.
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And uh, as creators, we're getting hit on all sides from this email scammers, content being ripped, and we're also competing with AI in terms of the marketplace.
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I I just read that I think two-thirds of the books published on Amazon are just bot-generated slop.
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Wow.
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I don't know how you'd know that at this time, but I don't know that uh four million new books were published last year, and about three million of them were self-published, you know, meaning they're probably uh digital ebooks only.
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And uh and that's higher than it's ever been before.
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So I'm a little sus.
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Yeah, that's a lot of AI slap, I think.
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But let's go back to Jerry.
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Can you give us a little more detail around what I'm most curious about, again, as a creative, is he had that spark for Superman.
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Right.
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And Superman, to your point, was the trailblazer of the superhero, right, action hero, and comics as an outlet for laddering that up and really being transformative ultimately into other modalities.
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Everything from the graphic novels we see now to the storyboarding of the action movies that started it all.
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What what what do you think triggered that?
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And where did Superman come from?
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And where did we get this truth, justice, and the American way, patriotic integration of this idea?
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And I'm just thinking back to Nietzsche with the Ubermensch and the Superman and all of that historical precedent.
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Can you tell us a little bit about that context?
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Get into Jerry's head and see where that takes us.
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I think there are a lot of precursors, as there always are, for Jerry's creation.
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I mean, we all stand on the shoulders who came before us, right?
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And I think you read Superman, you can see a lot of Samson in there, the Moses story, both of which, you know, as a Jewish kid growing up in Cleveland, he would have known well.
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I mean, uh Superman to escape death is put in a basket and sent a long ways so he can be a hero to these new people.
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That's pure Moses.
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For uh when you think about the oldest surviving works of literature we have, it's it's Beowulf, Gilgamesh, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Aeneid.
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What do they all have in common?
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I mean, they're all Superman stories, basically.
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They're all stories about some ancient Egypt, Osiris.
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Yes, yes.
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All ancient strongmen's strong men, we love these kinds of stories.
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I think they inspire people.
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And uh, and Superman, of course, coming when he did during the depression, really the worst part of the depression, looming war in Europe, massive rise in crime, and particularly juvenile crime and the mob in the United States.
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And Jerry labeled Superman in that very first story, the champion of the weak and oppressed, which is exactly what people wanted and needed right then.
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And Superman originally deals with the problems of the day.
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It's not supervillains and aliens.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:30.400
He takes on, in that first story, he takes on a spouse beater, takes off a woman who's uh been wrong about to be executed because she's been wrongly accused of murder, take saves Lois from being kidnapped, takes on war profiteers, and that's just in the first 13-page story.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.799
So it was full of action and relevance to the world that Jerry lived in.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:41.039
And I think that's how Superman became thought of as this symbol of hope.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.480
Or you you just quoted the tagline from the 50s.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:53.519
It actually started on radio and then went to the to the television series, the Truth, Justice, and the American Way business.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:58.400
The American Way obviously being kind of political propaganda for the 50s.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:13.039
But it in a real way, he did, you know, he did represent the American way in the sense of being a good person and helping your neighbors and, you know, trying to make the world a better place.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:17.440
Uh I think that's part of the instinctive appeal to the whole character.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:24.640
Here's a guy who's got so many powers, he could just take over, you know, he could do anything he wants, but he doesn't.
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:35.119
Instead, he kind of hangs in the background behind this meek, mild secret identity and helps people when he can without taking anything for it.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:42.799
He just does it because, you know, he was raised by a good farm couple in Kansas and they taught him to be a good boy.
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:44.000
So he is.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.119
How can you not love that character?
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.920
The archetypal hero really, really resonates.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:59.599
And it if you look at the top 100 grossing films of all time, no exaggeration, I think.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:12.559
85 90 percent of them are science fiction, fantasy, these over-the-top heroic Superman, superhero style adventures.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:21.200
There's something deep and an innate, Jungian in a sense, about how we're just drawn to this, can't get enough of it.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:23.920
And Jerry, as a kid, tapped right into it.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:36.160
So, despite the difficulty in getting it expressed in the real world, and despite getting screwed every which way by these shady business types, it eventually won.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:41.200
Superman became the iconic trailblazer that we know it to be.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:49.680
And your story about the backstory is fascinating because it adds a human dimension to it, full of vulnerability and abuse.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:50.319
Yeah.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:59.119
I I mean, I should point out that uh that 1947 lawsuit that he lost was not the end of the story.
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:01.519
There's seven years of litigation.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:17.359
Some people listening to this probably remember a lot of publicity that Siegel and Schuster got in 1975 as a result of a PR campaign Jerry launched, which originally was not generated by the mainstream media.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:24.160
It was generated by fans publishing amateur fanzines, and they picked up the story and ran it.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:33.039
And that created the snowball that eventually bled over to the Washington Post and then other TV shows and news shows and whatnot.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:41.039
So eventually uh DC Comics gives Jerry and Joe a pension,$20,000 a year.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:47.279
Basically, what they were paying their secretaries today, we'd say assistants at that time.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:57.359
According to Forbes, Superman makes Warner Brothers, the parent company, about$450 million a year.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.960
And that's what they got.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:08.480
And so if you're thinking, I remember when they got pensions, and and so I already know this story, you so don't.
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.640
There's 50 more years of battling and squabbling.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:21.119
Even after Jerry passes, the torch is picked up by his wife Joanne, who, by the way, was the original model for Lois Lane.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:27.759
So Jerry, the original model for Clark Kent, marries the original model for Lois Lane.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:34.319
And if that wasn't perfect enough, their daughter grows up to become an award-winning reporter.
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.519
I mean, I couldn't have written that any better.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.640
She carries on Jerry's fight, then their daughter, Laura, carries on the fight.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:44.960
I mean, it goes till 2016.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:54.480
I don't want to give away everything, but I will say that they eventually reach a happier ending.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:02.000
Maybe uh, you know, may it be not what it should be, but it it's it's at least a respectable resolution.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:07.440
So there is there is something to look forward to that's positive at the end of the book.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:08.640
Great, great.
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.279
Well, thanks for the little hints of spoilers.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:17.279
Yeah, again, I'm I'm hearing a little parallel with the Stan Lee Marvel saga, too.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:43.440
You had fans who got involved, you had basically compensation coming late, but a little bit of something for Stan too, and he even got those cameo appearances in all the movies, and uh, you know, so eventually with persistence, there is a sense of truth, justice, and we would hope the American way for creators, but you're a creator.
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:46.960
We I'm a creator, we create jealousy.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:57.440
People who don't understand the magic that we bring turn us into Prometheus, which is you're the light bringer, and we and we don't like that.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:18.000
And I'm sensing a lot of that that's going on here too, not just about the money, but sticking it to the creative force because it is such an incredible power that people who don't have it want to take it away, or at least mitigate it or silence it.
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.000
I think that's true sometimes.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.640
You know, after Jerry is fired, he spent decades just struggling.
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.920
I think there's a myth that he just sat around whining or something.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:28.799
Not true.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.720
He was writing and writing constantly for anybody.
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.799
He worked for Marvel in Secret.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:44.160
He did more than 170 stories for Disney, for the Italian Disney comics, writing Donald Duck and, you know, the junior woodchucks and stuff.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.480
He worked whenever he could find work, but he never got very far ahead.
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:53.920
And in 1951, he writes some letters, which are I mean, they're in the book.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.200
You can read it for yourself, but I'll just say they're out there.
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:01.039
I think Jerry was really kind of falling apart.
00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:07.279
Uh today we'd probably say he had a nervous breakdown, and uh Joanne was the one who pulled him through.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.680
But the point is, he's sending all these inflammatory letters in 51.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:16.400
He thinks the entire creative community is going to rise up and support him.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:17.920
And they so don't.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:19.680
It's just the opposite.
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:25.519
There's a letter that same year from Jack Kirby and Joe Simon, both great comic creators.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:36.559
They write DT and say, we just want you to know we don't appreciate, we don't approve of what Jerry Siegel is doing, not supporting him at all.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.759
And then what happens?
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.559
The Siegel family fights and fights and fights and eventually makes some progress.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:44.960
And who comes along decades later?
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:51.599
It's the Jack Kirby estate filing a lawsuit, making the exact same claims on the exact same basis.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:56.160
They even hire the same attorney that the Siegel family has been using.
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.960
Well, you just gotta dust off the briefs.
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.480
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:00.799
Right.
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.680
No, I mean, Jerry blazed the trail.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:13.680
And, you know, sometimes it's not best to be the guy who goes first, but he made the world a lot better eventually for the comic creators who came after him.
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.680
I think it's inspirational, especially to creative types.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:27.039
We all get punched in the face each and every day, whether it's a rejection letter or whether it's a hard day of trying to slug through our own stuff.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:27.359
Yeah.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:31.839
And to see someone like Jerry with that spark never give up.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:40.880
Frank Zappa has a line which is uh two pieces of advice for creatives, don't stop and keep going.
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:48.880
And it sounds like it sounds like Jerry epitomizes that uh that Frank advice in a in an effective way.
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.160
And we're all a little loopy, too, to be honest.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:53.680
We're all a little eccentric.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.200
And the more creative you are, the the weirder you are.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.839
And and sometimes in a social setting, uh, we don't fit neatly into tribes.
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:12.799
And it sounds to me like some of the backstory here is Jerry was kind of weird, he's quirky, maybe even hard to get along with.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:14.799
That's not blaming the victim.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:23.039
I'm merely saying that we're all in this mode of being eccentric and different from most folks.
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:24.480
No, I think that's true.
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:29.359
I say in an author's note at the end of the book that I mean, I think Jerry Siegel was a genius.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:43.200
He launched a new genre, he gave credibility to a whole industry, but he was not a I mean, none of us are perfect person, but I do think that sometimes genius has a price.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:44.400
You know what I mean?
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:57.279
It's uh we've seen that too many times with artists or writers or mathematicians and inventors, what have you, that sometimes uh you know, there's a dark side to genius.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:00.000
And difficulty in communication.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:05.759
Uh George Lucas sent a one-page treatment of Star Wars to Universal Studios.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:10.079
And I don't know if you've seen it, but it literally makes no sense.
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:17.759
It had it had Wookiees and lightsabers, and there really was no story.
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:20.559
It was it was truly incomprehensible.
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:24.480
And Universal looked at it and was like, get out of here.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:26.960
Worst business decision ever.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:36.480
But the price to be paid for being a genius, sometimes you're you're you're in your own world, and and you could be very eccentric.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:43.839
Yeah, Jerry just couldn't understand why these guys wouldn't, you know, come on, we've made a ton of money for you.
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:45.519
Give us a little more.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.559
But of course, Jack Liebowitz was a businessman.
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:51.200
You know, he had no reason to do that.
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.519
Uh as far as he was concerned, talent was interchangeable.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:58.000
If Jerry quit, he'd just get somebody else.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:30:59.599
So what difference does it make?
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.720
And when you're focused on business, then what's cherished and important for the creative is not part of your world at all.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:16.799
And conversely, if you're if you're barreling down the hatch as creating, you don't think about the world of the businessman, which is completely separate.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.799
It's the challenge of bringing those two together, which brings us full circle.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.880
There are very few rhythm and lead guitarists out there.
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.599
You're either good at one or the other.
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:29.920
And that brings me to you, sir.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:35.200
You you seem to be good at bringing these worlds together.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.279
You have a library of content.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.160
You've been writing since you were seven years old.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.640
According to your bio, according to your publish any of that, but yeah.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:46.240
Yeah, but yeah, yeah.
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.400
But but that's very impressive.
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:54.400
Can you can you share maybe a few of your best practices and learnings?
00:31:54.559 --> 00:32:00.319
We've got listeners and viewers here who are up and coming writers, or they're writing and working through it.
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.240
A lot of indie writers.
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:13.680
What have you picked up along the way, and how have you avoided the Jerry Siegel paradox of really being a genius but then getting crushed?
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:20.559
Seems like you're very talented, and you've got a great legit career as a professional writer.
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:22.000
That is huge.
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:22.799
Thank you.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.680
But of course, I had an agent, and I still do.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.000
I had an agent who sold this book.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.559
How did you guys find each other?
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:35.119
That that's that's like a big first step, but it's a cat chasing its tail.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:51.359
I need uh I need to have some popularity to get the attention of a good agent, but how can I get a good agent if you need to come to RyderCon or uh somebody else, but uh someplace else, but you know, we always bring a lot of agents in, and they're not random.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:58.640
After 35 years in this business, I know who the good agents are, I know who can be trusted.
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:06.000
And you know, I don't bring anybody to RiderCon unless I'd be happy to have them uh as my agent.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:11.119
In fact, my current agent is someone I met at writers at this writers conference.
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:14.480
So, you know, that's that's what you need to take care of.
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:18.720
You already gave the best piece of advice, which is don't quit.
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:31.920
But to add on that, I would suggest people who are writing or aspiring to write or would rather do that than what they're doing now is to start treating it like a job, which is what I do.
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.160
You know, I get up in the morning.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:36.160
Well, I don't immediately write.
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:44.400
I feed the cat, I water the flowers, I take off the trash, and then I sit down and start writing every day, whether I feel like it or not.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:34:00.319
You know, some days you get up and you, you know, the laundry seems really appealing, you know like anything other than writing, but treat it like a job, which means you show up on time and you put your rear in the chair and you go to work.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:08.000
I understand that people have day jobs, and you know, it's best if you can write every day, even if it's just for an hour or two.
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:11.440
If you can't do that, then figure out what you can do.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:22.480
Write on the weekends or get up early in the morning, like I used to do when I was practicing law, and find some way you can put something into this book you're writing every day.
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:35.440
Because even if you just get a few pages every day, you know, if you do that every single day in four or five months, you'll have a first draft, which you'll probably think is terrible, but that's why it's just the first draft.
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:43.199
Then you go back and revise it and revise it, and each draft takes a little less time, and that's how you get to a book.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:49.039
Don't make excuses, prioritize your writing and do it as frequently as you can.
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:51.519
Check, check, check.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:52.000
Yeah.
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:57.519
I think most folks listening and viewing have at least gotten that far.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:08.800
The real hurdle, and this is where it it's a quantum leap, where you see those math charts where it goes from arithmetic to geometric progression, is I got my books.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:10.559
I got a few.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:21.519
I'm actually indie published, I'm on Substack, I participate in BookTalk, I sell my books at Comic-Con.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.760
I'm out there, I'm doing it, but it's just so crowded.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:30.239
We're in an attention economy.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.960
You just mentioned four million books, yeah.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:34.719
Four million books.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:44.239
How can I cut through the clutter in a way that I can get people's attention and sustain it?
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:47.760
Do I need to do paid advertising?
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:53.280
Do I need to find that mythical agent that you're referring to?
00:35:53.679 --> 00:36:11.280
What's that step, which I think a lot of writers are freaked out about, between being able to sit and crank content and somehow plow through this tsunami that's out there, this content glut?
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:15.199
Well, we do small group retreats sometimes too.
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:22.320
And what I always tell people is to, you know, before you pick your project, figure out what you want.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.239
Like, what is your goal?
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:30.000
When I was a kid, I just wanted to see my name on the spine of a book at the library, you know.
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:32.480
That that would have been the thrill.
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:48.320
Other people, you know, want to have a hardcover they can give their mother, or they want to brag to their university friends that they've got this big name publisher, or uh whatever, you know, it's if but you've got to figure out what you want.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:56.400
I've seen people who are writing really good, like serious literary novels, and then get discouraged when it doesn't sell well.
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:58.400
Well, why did you think it would?
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:07.840
You weren't writing something that would sell well, or you know, if you maybe uh consider a genre project if that's what you want.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:18.159
Something that's romance or mystery thriller or science fiction fantasy, something that's easier to categorize and thus easier to sell.
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:20.400
Uh, you know, what do you like?
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:31.039
Go on TikTok or the book talk part, and you can find all kinds of people promoting books, but it's usually books in a certain genre, which may or may not be yours.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.960
And I would never encourage people to write a book in a genre they don't care about.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.199
That's never gonna turn out very well.
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:44.400
But figure out what you do want, and that answers, what am I gonna write?
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.480
That answers, do I need an agent?
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:49.440
That answers, where am I gonna take it to try and get it published?
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:51.840
Or maybe I'll just publish it myself.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:56.639
But you can't answer those questions until you know what your goals are.
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:06.159
I think that's spot on, and that's excellent because some folks have the notion that they should not be themselves in order to be successful.
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.559
And that almost goes back to childhood.
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:10.159
I'm not good enough.
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:17.199
I need to put on a persona or I need to be someone I'm not, and then things will happen for me.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.239
Yeah, well, the imposter syndrome is everywhere, right?
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:21.599
Especially in the arts.
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:30.880
And, you know, I like that I've written 60, published 67 books, but I still finish a first draft and think, boy, that was terrible.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:33.280
When did I forget how to write?
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:35.760
And then you go back and make it better and better.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.199
Everybody has that.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:38.880
Just table it.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.320
Try not to think about it and do the best work you can.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:44.559
And remember, it'll get better.
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:45.519
It'll get better.
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:46.480
I'm not done yet.
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:48.320
I'm gonna keep working, it'll get better.
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:57.760
You can absolutely do this, but you have it by having you do it by having faith in yourself and not quitting.
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.119
Once again, Frank Zappa, I'm gonna do the voice.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:03.360
Don't, don't stop.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:05.840
Keep going.
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:07.840
I I love that advice.
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.760
You'd like to say that here in the arts, it's gonna all be about talent.
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:17.599
And and talent is a good thing to have, to be sure, but honestly, not that uncommon, I think.
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:30.719
What is uncommon is having the perseverance to stick it out, like Jerry Siegel did, when he's getting rejected for years over and over again, but he just doesn't quit.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.440
And that's why we have Superman.
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.199
I I can totally relate.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:39.360
I got hundreds of rejection letters when I was trying to break in.
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.360
And, you know, there was a reason.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:43.920
It's because my stuff wasn't very good.
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:55.440
But over time, it gets better, and you keep writing and it gets better, and eventually you got the right book and the right place at the right time, and that's when you get published.
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:58.800
But it probably won't happen overnight.
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:01.920
So you just got to tell yourself, I'm not gonna quit.
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:03.599
I'm in this for the long haul.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:08.000
I'm gonna do it until it works, and that's how you get published.
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:08.960
Awesome.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:10.079
Terrific advice.
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:11.679
What was your magic moment?
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:17.519
There's usually when in retrospect, a tipping point, you're cranking, you're getting rejected.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:20.639
You know deep in your heart that you're a writer and you're writing.
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:25.119
A lot of stuff is coming out, you're refining your craft to your point.
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:27.440
And and what happened?
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:29.920
How did you first get published?
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:38.960
And then how did it eventually ladder up to critical mass sufficient for you to hang your hat on actually having a career as a writer?
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:54.719
Well, this is going to date me because I I was trying to break in back in the late 80s, and at that point there was no internet and uh no agents nor writers in the small Oklahoma town where I was growing up.
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:57.920
So there wasn't really anybody I could talk to.
00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:59.440
But I got books and read them.
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.639
I had the writer's market, you know, that has all these agents.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:04.800
I remember that, the big book.
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:06.400
I used to get that too.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.119
It was like a phone book of agents and publishers and all that good stuff.
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:17.920
And I'm telling you, I approached every single person who was in there who said they represented mystery novels.
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:20.000
No interest.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:31.440
I mean, I was I was in the back of the book and the footnotes before I finally found an agent, wonderful agent, Esther Perkins, no longer with us.
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:35.039
And she'd basically retired, but she got my package and she liked it.
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:39.280
And she said, Well, I know a guy at Ballantyne, which is part of Random House.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:40.639
I'll send it to him.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.159
Three months later, I'd sold four books to Random House.
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:56.960
But, you know, it took years to get there, which is why I'm saying now, of course, it's a little bit easier to find agents, not really to get agents, but you can look around on the internet and find people.
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.400
You can send emails instead of snail mail.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:03.360
But I'd be lying if I said it was easy, because it's not.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.360
It's still tough to get an agent.
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:09.679
They are inundated by queries in every possible form.
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:10.400
That's right.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:13.039
And and human beings have limited bandwidth.
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:14.000
I mean, think about it.
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:17.280
How time-intensive is it to really understand an artist?
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:18.960
Get into a book.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:31.360
Uh, if you are appraising a painting, well, it's an uninflected image, and you look at it and it reminds you of so and such, or it seems to be a trailblazer in other ways, and you can make an assessment.
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.440
But books are books.
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:48.159
You need to kind of dig in there and create a relationship with the content, which is an enormous investment of time, especially when you're getting thrown dozens, hundreds of options, synopses, treatments.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:49.599
You're swimming in it.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:57.519
And the William Goldman statement is true everywhere, which is nobody knows nothing when it comes to what's going to be a hit.
00:42:57.760 --> 00:42:58.000
Yeah.
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.280
And that's how do you know what's going to happen, right?
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:02.159
They don't know.
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:05.039
That's why they publish so many books every month.
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:10.239
This is literally true for New York publishers, the so-called big five.
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:13.920
90% of the books they publish lose money.
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:19.840
Those books are supported by the ones they don't, but they don't know which one that's going to be.
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:27.760
Now, Backlist or people they've been publishing for decades, they can predict that sort of, but new books, they don't know.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:35.760
The for you know, Tuesday with Morris had a first printing of 20,000 copies, which is like nothing in New York.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:41.760
Uh, then the author was on Oprah, and you know, everything changed, but they can't predict.
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:44.159
With with movies, too.
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:45.760
Uh, I think it's even harsher.
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:52.079
90, 95% of movies are big losers, and the hits float the entire industry.
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:53.679
But a hit is a hit.
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.000
That's a quantum leap that that propels.
00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:59.760
You got you got hundreds, thousands of science.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.119
Fiction fantasy writers, you got one Andy Weir.
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:03.679
Right.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:08.239
And he got the adaptations and the movies, and it's off to the races.
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:13.360
But to your point, Andy Weir toiled for a couple decades.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:16.639
He wrote stuff that he himself calls garbage.
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.960
It took him 10 years to put together his personal email list.
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:31.519
So you gotta do the lifting, and you need to create, is what I'm hearing centrally, human relationships are the backbone to a career one way or another.
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.440
I think that's true.
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:49.360
You come and meet people, that's gonna be your street team or your beta readers, readers, or your critique group, or just it's nice to have people you can call or email when you've got a question and you just, oh my gosh, is this legit or not?
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:50.079
Should I do this?
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:50.719
I don't know.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.760
And it's nice to have a brain to pick.
00:44:54.400 --> 00:45:09.920
Agents today, I think, are doing the work that in now I I'm dating myself again, but having been in this business for decades, I can see that agents are more and more doing work that used to be done with publishing at the publishers.
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:24.320
That is uh coming up with a proposal and shaping, you know, selling it in a way that's uh gonna be uh commercially appealing to somebody or uh coming up with good copy.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:30.719
Good agents are doing that now, and publishers are just kind of slurping it up because they don't have time.
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:36.480
The people in those companies that call themselves editors rarely do any actual editing.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:39.360
They go to meetings all day when they have time.
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:48.559
So uh and when it comes to PR, which you also published on it, uh mentioned earlier, uh, you're gonna be involved if you're a writer.
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:53.519
I think there's a myth that if you get a traditional publisher, then you don't have to promote it yourself.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.199
That is so wrong.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:59.440
If you're gonna publish a book, you're gonna have to be involved in the promotion.
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.440
If you're not, your book's gonna tank.
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:03.920
So just suck it up and get ready for it.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.239
That is part of the job.
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:15.199
I have a friend of mine who did that very traditional trajectory of a treatment to finding an agent.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:26.480
He had a good social media following, big press, the big release, Kareem Abdul Jabbar writing a review of the book in the New York Times.
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:30.719
And I even told him, I go, bro, you gotta hit the road.
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.000
If you have to quit your day job for six months, a year, you've got to self-promote.
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:41.440
And I think he was under the impression, sucking up to the myth that you just described.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.880
I did my work, I'm published.
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:45.519
We wish.
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:48.960
But you need to be out there and and and hustle in.
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:56.719
Uh James Elroy is one of my favorite writers, talking about mystery thrillers, LA Confidential, American Tabloid.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:08.480
The guy's like seven feet tall, and he constantly book signings, on the road, interviews, just a machine of self-promotion.
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:16.320
I don't think we'd have LA Confidential if this guy wouldn't have been hustling on the road to make it happen.
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:18.480
Nope, that's how you get the word out.
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:20.159
But we do have the internet now.
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.639
I gotta say, people gripe about social media, and I get that.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:35.920
But speaking as somebody who's been on so-called book tours, I can tell you, if book tour sounds glamorous to you, that tells me you've never been on one.
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:49.760
Because it's not, it's just uh new flight every day and zooming in to do the morning show and you know, sitting at tables and book signings, drumming your fingers and giving people directions to the bathroom.
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:57.119
That's I'd rather do social media or talking like we're doing right now, thank courtesy of the internet.
00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.199
That's that's much better.
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:01.519
I'd rather do that any day.
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:02.559
Absolutely.
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:06.719
Uh, I just got finished at the LA Times Festival of Books.
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:09.760
So I had four or five of my books out there.
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:14.800
Great crowd, best, best crowd ever for selling anything, any genre.
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:16.639
They're hungry, they're readers.
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:24.719
If you go to a Comic-Con or one of those more specialized ones, they're much more discerning and they're in costumes and they don't really have time for writers.
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:30.239
But suffice to say, it was two days that was terrific, utterly exhausting.
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:33.679
It'll it'll wipe you out to do these live events.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:42.239
Need to do them, but get on Instagram, get on TikTok, share your stuff, and do podcasts and come on this show.
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:48.800
Podcasts are great because you know they're uh you can listen to them from your phone.
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:55.280
There's no pressure, you don't have to be in a certain place at a certain time, they're just there when you need them.
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.719
And uh I I get a lot of good information out of podcasts.
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:02.480
Oh, and I love hosting writers exactly like yourself.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:12.960
And on that point, let's try to spend the last few minutes of our great conversation highlighting your your bench, your shelf.
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:15.360
You've got a lot of series.
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:20.639
You do not only fiction and mystery, but you do writing for writers.
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:28.079
You have how-to books, which are very informative, where you share a lot of the best practices that you just outlined here.
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:32.559
Can you give us uh give us your pitch for uh Bill Bernhardt?
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:34.239
There's 10 of those books on writing.
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:39.440
They're called the Red Sneaker Writers series, and uh they're relatively short.
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.679
And I did that on, I mean, each book addresses a different topic.
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:50.960
And I did that on purpose because I didn't want them to become uh people's excuses for not writing, you know.
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:54.239
Oh, I gotta finish this book that William Bernhardt wrote.
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:58.159
I can't write mine because I'm reading the book on how to write one.
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:06.719
So each one of these will take you maybe two or three hours to read and maybe do the exercises, and then you can get back to writing.
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.760
This is supposed to help not to hurt.
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:19.679
Anyway, so I did 10 of those really just because I was doing some teaching at that time at conferences and whatnot, and I thought, you know, that's all well and good.
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:23.679
But if you come in with a textbook, then you're obviously an expert.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.760
So I wrote the first one for that purpose, Story Structure, it's called.
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:38.000
And and then it not only started to sell, but the audio book, which I narrated myself, outsold the print copy.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:39.760
And I thought, well, this is a good deal.
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:42.960
Congrats! It's a great way to get a toehold in that.
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:44.079
Very good, right?
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:45.039
Exactly.
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:47.440
And I've done other things, as you probably know.
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:52.079
I've done a lot of illegal thrillers and other things in the crime arena.
00:50:52.159 --> 00:51:05.119
I've done three books of poetry, I've done some books for young adults and children, done a couple of historical novels, although this is my first actual, you know, nonfiction in the Superman wars.
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:11.039
I did not make up anything, not to fill out scenes, didn't invite invent dialogue.
00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:21.360
I write from Jerry's viewpoint, so I use the narrative approach, if you will, but but everything in the book, I've got a source, you know.
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:27.440
If there's something in quotation marks, I've either got a wit eyewitness or a document that I'm pulling from.
00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:30.400
I mean, the story is so crazy anyway.
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:32.960
There's no reason to make it up anything.
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:42.880
It's just kind of the Truman Capote thing with taking a real life situation, but it's very engaging because you're a great writer and it's a narrative.
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:49.360
So you're reading about Jerry's story through Jerry's perspective, and uh it's entertaining that way.
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:50.800
Yeah, that's what I wanted.
00:51:50.880 --> 00:52:07.760
I wanted this to be engaging, certainly if you love Superman, but even if you don't, because here's a writer, an artist, trying to find his place in the universe and coming up against the forces of commerce that are not too friendly to him.
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:17.360
At first, this was a long time ago, to be fair, but uh some of these problems are still with us today and in some ways are even worse and more dangerous.
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:26.239
With the technology, with the volume of competition, and human nature is likely never really gonna change.
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:29.199
That's the number one science fiction trope.
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:41.119
Whether you're on Earth or some distant galaxy, humans are still glorious and awful at the same time, and right most things probably will never change.
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:45.119
It's just the human, the human condition and nature.
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:50.320
Can you tell us a second how how you get a new idea for a book?
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.360
Because your ove is so diverse.
00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:55.360
Cover a lot of ground.
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:57.119
Boy, that's a good question.
00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:57.679
I don't know.
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:02.639
I have a writer friend who used to, you know, when you're inevitably said, Where do you get your ideas?
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.159
And he'd say, Cleveland.
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:08.400
I don't know where ideas come from.
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:18.480
I don't really even know where this idea came from, except that uh my previous novel called Justice for All dealt with this art versus commerce conflict.
00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:23.599
And I remembered Siegel and Schuster and started looking into it, and one thing led to another.
00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:30.480
And I thought, you know, this could be a good nonfiction book that I don't think has really been fully told before.
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:38.159
And so that led, uh boy, I if I had had any idea how long it would take, I might not have gone there.
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:50.480
But once you're getting into the story and you think I've got to get it right, and I ended up traveling to eight different states and talked to more than 50 people interviewing them, uh, viewed library collections.
00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:53.599
I couldn't tell you how many books and periodicals I read.
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:54.960
Hundreds, hundreds.
00:53:55.360 --> 00:54:10.320
And sometimes the things with the smallest circulations, like even fanzines, uh, have preserved information that would have otherwise been lost because they were interviewing some of these comic creators before they passed away.
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:13.280
And that turned out to be a real treasure trove.
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.559
Talk about a different approach to a book.
00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:24.400
That's like you did books of poetry where you're basically, you know, having a cup of Earl Gray and thinking about life.
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:29.199
And then you you you went on this extensive research assignment.
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:33.199
You're visiting locations, you're pouring through archives.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:36.559
That how did you wrap your head around that?
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:38.639
That's such a different mindset.
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:44.400
Well, I really didn't know what I was getting into, but I will say this at least it's fun.
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:46.960
You know, it's a subject that I liked.
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:52.960
My youngest son, Ralph, is a photographer, so a very good photographer professionally.
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:59.760
So I took him with me when we went to Cleveland, and he took pictures of like Jerry Siegel's childhood home.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:10.800
Or this is the we the current owners led us into the house, which was really moving, being in the room where Jerry created Superman.
00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:15.679
I'm just it was, I mean, I could feel an energy there.
00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:18.320
It was very uh moving.
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:23.440
I was gonna put a picture in the book, and Ralph sent me one, and I look so mopey and sad.
00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:28.400
I thought, Ralph, can can you give me a one a photo where I don't look weird?
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.199
And he said, No, Dad, you look weird in all of them.
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.239
So that's not in the book.
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:45.760
But uh, you know, getting uh so it became kind of a family project, and we got to see the the house and a lot of other things, and uh, you know, it's just a lot of fun.
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:48.480
Uh hard work, but still fun.
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:49.679
Super fun.
00:55:49.840 --> 00:56:02.000
I was sparking some of my books at the Pasadena Comic-Con, and it was only about a 10-minute drive from the Van Halen house where Eddie and Alex Van Halen grew up.
00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:08.079
So I was with my son too, and we're like, let's go, let's go over to um check out the house.
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:10.719
It's public domain where the address is.
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:13.280
So we drove over, we parked the car.
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:24.239
I ran into another podcaster who specializes in Van Halen who happened to be there, and we talked it up and we were walking around where it all happened.
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:36.159
I pick peered into the living room where they used to play together, and there's something about that visceral lived experience of connecting with your subject matter, yes, which is intense.
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:37.119
Yeah.
00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:54.320
I I love going to writers' homes, even the ones that didn't create Superman, but I just feel like you know, this is in a small way giving back to the people who gave us so much and probably didn't uh benefit from it the way they should have.
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:58.800
So which is usually the case, and of course, the the theme here.
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:06.079
There it's almost like a time machine when you go back, because you know, the earth is moving, time is flowing.
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:20.559
But if you sit at the desk of Ralph Waldo Emerson and you see the little wood grains in it, then you're connected in time and space to something that's almost mythical.
00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:32.559
And it makes them more human than anything else you could pretty much do, then kind of experience what they were experiencing in that very physical, visceral kind of way.
00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:33.360
Oh, it's cool.
00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:35.119
Totally right, totally right.
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:36.159
It's it's neat.
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:36.719
It's neat.
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:39.599
So what's what's in the future for Bill Bernhard?
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:46.159
You did Superman Wars, you've got all of these books bread crumbed behind you.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:49.760
This is such a this is such a leap for you, this book.
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:51.599
What's cooking?
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:56.960
The next one, I should have asked you to guess, but I won't put you on the spot.
00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:59.760
Next year it's gonna be the Batman Wars.
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:17.440
Uh, and and let me just tell you, uh, as horrible as the Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster story is, the story behind Batman the craters is worse, in my opinion, and probably even less well known than the Superman story.
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:21.519
So I'm anxious to get that story out into print, too.
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:26.400
There are some people who have not gotten credit that they should.
00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:28.559
So that's what I'm gonna do with that one.
00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:40.559
I was kind of leading you on with some of the other controversies in comic books, and uh, I could tell you were you were holding a little back because I think you're you're already knee deep into that next step, right?
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:41.280
You're ready to go.
00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:42.719
You are so right, yeah.
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:52.320
I've just got back this last weekend from a research trip to Indiana for the Batman book, but I think it's gonna be an eye.
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:59.039
I mean, Batman is hugely popular now, but does anybody know the story of where he came from?
00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:00.719
Very few, I think.
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:05.599
So it's as elusive as the true identity of Bruce Wayne.
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:23.760
I gotta say that my big takeaway from all of this is we as a writer and as a creator, and you you experience this directly too, all the time, our our day-to-day experience compared to our output, there's often a huge delta.
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:28.159
And there's such a challenge of just being able to create.
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:54.320
He described it like working in a submarine, right?
00:59:54.639 --> 01:00:02.159
It's this cauldron of sweat and pain and risk and heavy lifting.
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:08.559
And then the waiter brings you your delectable thing, which gives so many people so much pleasure.
01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:35.039
And hearing you describe Jerry's story and relating it to my own experiences as a creator, and I'm sure you could relate too, is that that intense resistance between this creative energy courting the muse and all of her gifts coming down to us, and just the day-to-day grind and difficulties that we face as human beings, just being able to do this, I think is a central part of the magic.
01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:38.000
And I think your book hits that home.
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:46.159
That just like bright lights cast long shadows, if you choose this life of a creator, it's gonna be difficult.
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:48.320
There are no guarantees of success.
01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:54.880
But don't get discouraged by all the obstacles and punches in the face because that's the fuel of the creative engine itself.
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:57.440
Yeah, very well said, totally agree.
01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:02.079
Yeah, guy, that's what I got the most out of uh out of this new project of yours.
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:04.639
So I want to thank you sincerely for making time.
01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:11.039
Bill Bernhardt, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna have links at the bottom for you to reach him, talk to him, contact him.
01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:13.280
Writer, writer con.
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:19.519
That sounds like uh a great opportunity to actually connect with agents who aren't scam artists.
01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:23.840
Yeah, it's Labor Day weekend every fall in Oklahoma City.
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:24.880
Great conference.
01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:26.000
Hope you can join us.
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:34.320
And another big takeaway, writers, it's like butt in chair, hands on keyboard, great, go for it and do it.
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:43.519
But your responsibility, if you want to get read, is to go out there and pitch it and give it and engage with the world directly.
01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:44.239
Exactly.
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:47.760
And if you don't like networking, just look at it like you're making friends.
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:54.480
You know, I I think writers do tend to be kind of introverted, but this is your tribe for Pete's sake.
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:59.519
Everybody here feels the same way you do, so there's nothing to be embarrassed about.
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:06.559
So don't tower in a corner or brood and and and be complaining and frustrated that no one reads you.
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:08.079
Go out there and get read.
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:09.760
Yeah, exactly.
01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:11.360
Thanks so much, Bill.
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:15.119
It was a real pleasure, and I'd love to follow up with you six months or a year.
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:22.480
And when Batman cranks out, let's uh let's unveil the uh the secrets behind that.
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:24.239
Sounds great.
01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:25.519
It's been a blast.
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:27.119
Thanks for having me on.