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Hi everyone, welcome to EPAS Unleashed.
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I'm your host Jessica Navarro and today we have a very special guest.
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Many of our shelter workers are fans of this guest so we're really excited and honored to have her on.
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We're gonna be talking a little bit about training and before we dive into that topic, we'll go ahead and do a little intro with Jenna.
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Hi Jenna.
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Thank you for having me.
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No, thank you for being here.
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So for our listeners, I feel like a lot of people in animal welfare know you, but for our listeners that might not know you, can we get a little bit of an intro about you?
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Yeah, so my name is Jenna Polarito.
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I've been working with dogs for about 10 years, but going on my seventh year of being like a trainer or a behavior specialist.
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I started in doggie daycare, was initially a pooper scooper basically, and then I just like worked up to being like a head handler in the groups and all of that.
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Quickly became certified in dog training just because I thought it was really interesting.
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And then of course, like, moved on to working in shelters and now own a business as a behavior specialist.
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So I work pretty high level behavior modification cases.
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Awesome, awesome.
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And what made you want to start working in this field?
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I know you said you started as a a pooper scooper, but what made you want to pursue this?
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I just always really loved animals and just really loved dogs and I honestly just got I like applied for this job at the kennel not thinking that I would get it and then ended up getting it and then when I wanted to become a dog trainer and I was going through school for that I was required to volunteer in a shelter to like become a certified dog trainer and then that's basically what got me into animal welfare it's just the fact I was kind of, had to go volunteer and then was just like thrown into it just from that.
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Yeah, yeah, I feel like a lot of our volunteers, that happens to them too.
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They, you know, start off volunteering because they need it for whatever reason and then they end up loving it and they just stay.
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So to kind of jump into the training, of course, again, maybe this is something that people in animal welfare know, but our listeners might not be aware of it.
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But can we talk a little bit about force?
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free training.
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So, so I am, of course, a force -free dog trainer.
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So what that means, basically force -free dog training is a style of training where we're not using force or fear or pain, intimidation, punishment, corrections, anything like that as a behavior modification strategy.
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So like, yes, those types of things do exist in the world and we can't really avoid them.
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We don't have to use them as a way to modify behavior.
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So we're using primarily positive reinforcement to strengthen behaviors that we want the dogs to do or we want to see.
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We typically are applying some form of a management tactic to prevent the behaviors we don't want to see.
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And more cases than not, we're not only just using positive reinforcement by itself, but it's typically a mix of systematic desensitization, counter conditioning as well, especially if it's like a behavior modification case.
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But really we are primarily working on ensuring that the dog is opting in to the process, that they're essentially consenting to the process, that they want to be doing it, and we give them a choice in it as well.
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So it's as positive as we can make it and it should be really fun and really rewarding for everybody involved.
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Yeah, and that's so amazing because here at the shelter, we do see animals that come from different backgrounds.
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we know here that force -free training is so important, especially in the shelter life.
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So it's really something that we want to talk more about for our community to have in their mind and hopefully practice at home as well.
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yeah.
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And you mentioned positive reinforcement.
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Can we talk a little bit about what that is?
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Yep, so positive reinforcement.
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Positive means the addition of, so when we're thinking about all of the quadrants in the sense of like positive negative punishment, positive negative reinforcement, positive means to add, and then reinforcement is just going to strengthen the behavior.
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So when we positively reinforce the behavior, we are basically telling the learner or the dog to like do that again.
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So it's just the addition of something, the learner or the dog.
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and it's going to make that behavior happen more often, will strengthen it.
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It's kind of like going into work and getting a paycheck.
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Most people go to work and keep going to work because they're getting paid to go to work.
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So it's kind of, that's like a really easy, easy example of positive reinforcement is just like what motivates you to go to work.
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And most people are like, cause I get a paycheck and that's, that's quite literally all it is.
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Yeah, yeah, some of us are lucky.
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I mean, I love working.
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So I love being here for the animals and stuff, but I definitely would maybe like it a little less if I wasn't getting a paycheck.
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And can we talk a little bit about aversive methods and why we shouldn't use them?
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So aversive methods are essentially any tool or tactic that is inherently aversive or punishing or uncomfortable to the dog.
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So when we're thinking on a spectrum of positive punishment, punishment is working so the learner or the dog is avoiding that stimulus.
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So typically an aversive tool is something like an e -collar, prong collar, slip lead.
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Of course any tool can be aversive, just your voice or your hands can be aversive.
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But aversive tools inherently typically are going to be an e -collar or a prong collar because those things are like designed to be aversive.
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And then typically we don't want to use them.
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Research indicates basically recently that there are higher levels of Stress and aggression and fear when dogs or any species really are experiencing punishment or averse to tools in their day to day life.
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It's also linked to chronic stress and decreased responsiveness.
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So it's really just not worth the risk.
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in my opinion, to be constantly doing that to an animal.
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Also, especially in the sheltering world, the dogs are already extremely stressed.
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They're typically in a new place.
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In more cases than not, they're in severe levels of pain too.
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A lot of dogs come in with injuries or pre -existing conditions that they're already uncomfortable, they're terrified.
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We really don't want to be slapping more aversive things onto them when they're already so uncomfortable and so stressed.
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Yeah, definitely.
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mean, we know it here that these pets are just not their normal self because of how loud the noises are here, how the noise level is, know, people coming in and out and disturbing their sleep.
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And, you know, it's just a really stressful environment to be in the shelter.
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So adding that is definitely not something that we want to do.
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And I...
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Mainly work with kiddos.
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I'm the education coordinator, I usually go out and I'm to kids, teaching them, you know, hopefully to be better in animal welfare for the future.
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But we always talk about, do we think that pets have feelings?
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And I ask them, do you guys like being stressed or do you like to be anxious?
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And, you know, of course most of the time the kids are gonna be like, no, I don't like feeling that.
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I don't like feeling that.
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So I link that to, okay, well why would you want your doggy to feel like that?
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Why would you want your pet to feel like that?
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So that's, you know, something that I definitely always have in my mind too.
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I don't wanna make my pet stressed if I can help it.
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I'm gonna make them feel everything that I want to feel.
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Yeah.
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And something I always mentioned too is that behavior is communication.
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like dogs specifically like cannot talk to us.
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They can't be like, Hey, I feel this way or Hey, my leg hurts or this is happening.
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so when they are behaving, whether it's a behavior that we like or not, they're communicating with us.
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then when we're punishing that behavior and saying, Hey, don't do that.
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Then they're just like, well then they can't communicate with us at that point.
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even like low level aggression or reactivity can be a pain response by itself.
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So especially with those types of cases, we don't want to be taking away a dog's ability to communicate with us.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Like you said, they don't speak English or Spanish or any other language that we understand.
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So they show us what their body or with their emotions.
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So it's definitely important that we, like you said, don't restrain them from doing that.
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Here in El Paso, we do have a lot of that alpha mentality.
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Can we talk a little bit?
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Maybe where you are too.
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I don't know.
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We have a big issue here with that.
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It's definitely everywhere because it was so popularized given like reality TV and all of that.
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But dominance theory and like alpha theory, that whole thing was debunked in the early 2000s.
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I don't know the exact year, honestly.
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I wanna say like 2006 maybe or 2008 by Dr.
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David Meck who created the theory.
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So it's like, it's not accurate by any means, even if it maybe was.
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Accurate dogs are also not wolves.
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So it's like doesn't really it's not relevant whatsoever But yeah, the theory was originally on captive wolves that didn't know each other whatsoever So it was just like random wolves that they took from the wild and put together And they were primarily fighting over resources like food and water Whereas typically like wild wolves the hierarchy has to do with just the family members.
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So typically like the alpha wolf if you will, is just typically the oldest, strongest wolf.
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So it's like the father, if you think of it that way.
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And that's quite literally how they create a hierarchy.
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It has nothing to do with fighting for resources or establishing it by themselves.
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Yeah, and I think it's really important for people to understand that the doctor who created this whole theory is saying, no, I was wrong.
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Yes, yeah.
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actually have a big page on my website that's talking about force -free dog training and all of that.
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And I have his video link of him debunking it.
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Because it is, I do of course get a lot of clients who are pretty educated and pretty understanding of modern things, but I still always do get some clients who are like, yeah, my dog thinks they're alpha.
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And it's like, I'm just like, okay, cool.
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Tell me more about that just so that I can get some information and then slowly teach them like, that's probably not what's happening.
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It's probably something else.
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Yeah, yeah, same here.
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We hear it all the time and same as you do.
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Tell me a little bit more about this just so that I can inform you about what is really going on.
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Yeah, so I just think it's important that people know that the doctor who said that this...
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theory came to be is the same one trying so hard to be like, no, I was wrong.
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And I think that's so important, admitting you're wrong.
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I at least commend him for doing that.
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Yeah, I know he has mentioned that like he fully regrets even doing all of that.
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And like he said that his large majority of time that he spends in his career is just telling people that it's actually not an accurate theory whatsoever.
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But I think it still gets so much traction because of the fact that training and behavior is an unregulated field.
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So there are dog trainers that are behavior specialists or whatever they want to call themselves that have zero certifications to back that up.
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They just kind of are making up.
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whatever they want as they go.
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So I think that alone is like, it's just continuing to build that because there are so many dog trainers who are still saying that it's accurate when it's not.
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It's just because they are maybe not as educated.
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Yes, and I think that is also a really important point is there are no regulations.
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So, you know, somebody could go watch a YouTube channel on alpha training and there I'm certified.
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Yep, seriously, yeah.
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I always compare it to being a hairdresser, like, I style my hair every day, but that doesn't make me a hairstylist.
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Or like, I brush my teeth, I'm not a dentist.
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Because there are a lot of dog trainers that just have had a dog, and they're like, yeah, I trained my dog, I can now consult everybody else how to do it, and it's just really inaccurate and not the right thing to be doing.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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I mean, I've been at the shelter for five years and I would not consider myself a dog trainer.
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People come up to me and they ask me all the time, how do I do this?
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How do I make my dog do this?
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And I mean, I have some education, but I by no means would call myself a dog trainer.
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Yes.
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And...
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You did mention that you work with reactive dogs or aggressive dogs.
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Can we talk a little bit about the difference between those two?
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The difference between reactivity and aggression?
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Yep, absolutely.
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Those are the large majority of my cases.
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I became a specialist because I was just like, every case I was getting was that.
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And then I was just like, okay, I guess I might as well specialize in this.
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But how I like to explain it is that aggression is intent to do harm or attempt to do harm, if you will.
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So an aggression case is going to be a dog who has either bitten somebody or another dog or whatever.
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be or is attempting to bite another dog.
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And body language is of course going to look a whole lot different.
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With a reactivity case, it's typically just exactly as it sounds, the dog is reacting to a certain stimulus.
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And the reactions can come from, sometimes can be coming from a place of aggression.
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So we can sometimes have a dog who is highly reactive to a certain stimulus such as a dog and The reason that they are reactive is because they are aggressive and then of course there's other reasons as to maybe why they're aggressive.
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But with a lot of reactivity cases, it's a lot of just barking and noise and they're frustrated and maybe they are showing their teeth, maybe they aren't lunging.
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A lot of that behavior is just due to either frustration or fear or stress.
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A lot of it just comes from the fact of they can typically see a stimulus like a dog or a person and they can't.
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That said stimulus, because they're on a leash or they're behind a door or whatever it might be, so then of course frustration easily builds and then they are reacting.
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And I like to always think of it as like if they are displaying really high levels of like lunging or like maybe they look quote -unquote aggressive in some way, but they actually aren't aggressive, they're just reactive.
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It's a lot of that aggression is just due to the fact that they are stuck.
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Like they can't move forward.
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So they're not actually aggressive, they're just upset that they can't go forward or they can't access said thing.
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Mm -hmm.
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Yeah, I think it's really important for the community to know the difference between the two just because, you know, like you said, there's a dog that is barking and automatically the person's like, he's aggressive.
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And no, usually they're just reacting to something like you said.
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Yeah.
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And sometimes dogs who are reactive could be reacting out of like a, almost like a positive emotion.
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Like they're very excited and they're very happy.
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and their body language shows that maybe, but, or maybe it doesn't sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, regardless, the, the underlying emotion that's causing it is like, they're just excited and like, they want to say hi to the people, they're the dogs.
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So they're like, just like barking about it.
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Yeah, and I have one of those dogs man he Yeah, not to help him either.
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He's he's pretty he's a large large dog And he's an all -black dog.
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So he looks very scary Of course when he's when he's barking and every time I have to let people know like he's just barking because he's excited I know he looks scary, but Yeah, he's super excited That's funny.
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And usually you can tell with body language, but sometimes, sometimes you do get that where it's like, the dog is not necessarily aggressive, but their body language almost in a way is pointing that direction because they are just so frustrated.
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So it's not like they're aggressive towards the thing they're reacting at.
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They're almost aggressive towards like the fact that they're on a leash or like they're, I always like compare it to clients as like, Imagine like you're going somewhere that you're really excited to be at, like for that level of reactivity, where they're excited or they're frustrated that they can't access.
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You're driving somewhere and you're like stoked to be there, like it's a concert or whatever, it's something you've been awaiting.
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And then like all of a sudden you get stuck in like really bad traffic and you're like very frustrated, but you're not, doesn't necessarily like, you may like react, you might like yell or whatever, whatever people tend to sometimes do in those situations, but you're not like an aggressive person.
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You're just.
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yeah yeah that's always how I tend to explain it to people.
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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And something we do a lot here, and I love working at the shelter because I learned so many tricks, but enrichment, can we talk a little bit about enrichment?
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yeah, enrichment is like the biggest thing I swear that I do, even though I hardly, it's like only a portion of what I'm doing, but it's like the whole picture a lot of the time.
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Are you asking about enrichment for shelter dogs or just in general?
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Just in general, think it is important for the community to know what it is and how they can do that with their pets at home.
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Because that's something that I didn't know about until I worked at the shelter and I learned all of these things that we do here with our shelter pets.
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I'm like, well, maybe I could do that with my pets at home.
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And it has made a tremendous difference in their lives.
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Awesome, yeah.
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No, at home enrichment is honestly quite simple.
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I always like to say that your dog is a captive animal inside your home because they are.
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Like, yes, they're a domesticated animal, but they're still an animal and they are captive because they live inside your house.
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So you're holding an animal in captivity.
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So then we like to think about like the species specific natural behaviors that a dog may display.
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kind of thinking of it almost as like they do in zoos where they're trying to like mimic a natural response or natural behaviors for those animals.
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So enrichment of course is pretty individualized and it can be very specific for a lot of dogs.
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But species specific behaviors, I always explain like six big main ones are chewing, which everyone knows.
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Everyone knows that dogs have to on bones.
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Like that's the one that I feel like most people know I need to get my dog a bone to chew on.
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But chewing is a big species specific natural behavior.
00:19:59.516 --> 00:20:10.846
We also have shredding, dissecting, scavenging, sniffing, digging, and licking are typically the main ones that I tend to describe.
00:20:12.048 --> 00:20:18.044
And really a lot of that is, like for example, obviously bones are great for chewing.
00:20:18.044 --> 00:20:20.587
I typically recommend that.
00:20:20.587 --> 00:20:30.830
people either allow their dogs to dig in their yard or give them like a digging pit or something to encourage that behavior in some way, because it is natural.
00:20:31.191 --> 00:20:34.481
And then typically for scavenging, snuffle mats are really great.
00:20:34.481 --> 00:20:36.653
Snuffle mats have become very popular nowadays.
00:20:36.653 --> 00:20:39.624
You can sometimes find them in the pet stores recently, which I've noticed.
00:20:39.624 --> 00:20:42.114
You used to not be able to find them there.
00:20:42.153 --> 00:20:44.974
But snuffle mats have become much more popularized.
00:20:45.095 --> 00:20:47.675
That's just to do some scavenging.
00:20:47.776 --> 00:20:57.121
You can also even make scavenging boxes out of a cardboard box and packing paper, and the dog can sniff through the paper to find the food.
00:20:57.461 --> 00:21:09.167
Shredding and dissecting is a big one that a lot of people skip because their dog may rip up a stuffed animal, and then they're like, I'm not going to buy those anymore because the dog just destroyed it.
00:21:09.167 --> 00:21:10.627
They're ungrateful.
00:21:10.888 --> 00:21:14.590
But it is a predatory behavior.
00:21:14.590 --> 00:21:21.013
So it has to do with the predation sequence of a dog wanting to rip up an animal, prey animal of some sort.
00:21:21.895 --> 00:21:32.213
So I either get very low cost toys for my dogs to purposely rip up, sometimes I also go to the dollar store and grab a couple and I know that they're probably gonna rip them up and I'm like, that's cool, that's what I bought them for.
00:21:32.213 --> 00:21:36.866
But a lot of times I do make, I call them DIY carcasses.
00:21:37.188 --> 00:21:42.332
I have a terrier, I have a terrier at home so she loves to rip up stuff.
00:21:42.443 --> 00:21:58.973
But I'm basically just hiding food in like paper like packing paper or like small little boxes and I'm like rolling it up and putting it in like a big box like a cereal box or even like a like a box that like cans of soda would come in and I just kind of hide a bunch of food in the box of the papers.
00:21:58.973 --> 00:22:08.605
The paper a lot of times feels like it's like mimicking guts in a way and then the dog will like grab the box and rip it open eat the insides same way that they may you know.
00:22:08.605 --> 00:22:12.117
open a prey animal and eat the insides.
00:22:12.338 --> 00:22:14.361
So that's a really big one that I recommend.
00:22:14.361 --> 00:22:17.383
That's a really big like stress relieving one too.
00:22:18.443 --> 00:22:20.665
So that one's pretty massive.
00:22:21.267 --> 00:22:27.171
Sniffing is a huge natural behavior that can be really enriching for dogs as well.
00:22:27.332 --> 00:22:32.786
Sniffing is a dog's primary sense so they don't really see the world like we do.
00:22:32.786 --> 00:22:34.576
They tend to smell it.
00:22:34.597 --> 00:22:36.919
They have quite a massive nose.
00:22:37.708 --> 00:22:46.327
So a lot of times I recommend that my clients go on decompression walks, which are walks in nature where the dogs are allowed freedom of movement.
00:22:46.327 --> 00:22:52.768
So basically you're just taking your dog to maybe a quiet field or we go to a cemetery quite often.
00:22:52.768 --> 00:22:58.917
And I put my dog on like maybe a 30 to 50 foot leash and I quite literally just like follow her around.
00:22:58.917 --> 00:23:02.092
Like obviously like I'm not following her into traffic.
00:23:02.276 --> 00:23:07.980
There are rules, but I'm mostly just kind of holding the leash and saying hey, where do you want to go?
00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:17.047
Or like we even have a trail system near our area that like is winding and there's lots of options of where to walk and like instead of me choosing we're gonna go this way.
00:23:17.047 --> 00:23:34.519
I just let her choose and then I'm just like following along The decompression walks can be really really enriching as well But really I just recommend that you find what your dog seems to enjoy doing and stick with that Some dogs don't really enjoy to strip up stuff, even though some dogs may.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:36.800
It's quite individualized.
00:23:37.082 --> 00:23:40.005
Also something to consider is the dog's breed.
00:23:40.005 --> 00:23:48.270
So if you have a specific type of a breed, that might give you information of what types of behaviors they may like to display, what did we breed them for.
00:23:48.291 --> 00:23:54.096
So really, enrichment is just a huge conversation about natural behavior and how we can get a dog to display it.
00:23:55.348 --> 00:24:08.984
Yeah, yeah, and I mean, I have two huskies at home, usually around, people probably don't get it, but most animal welfare people are like, huskies.
00:24:09.526 --> 00:24:20.906
But yes, so like you mentioned, the box thing, I usually during the holidays, I don't like going shopping anymore because it's just so crazy out there.
00:24:20.906 --> 00:24:30.385
So I do all my shopping online, but my dogs, know like, man, it's holiday season, because we're getting all these boxes of enrichment.
00:24:31.569 --> 00:24:32.297
Yeah.
00:24:32.297 --> 00:24:37.768
like a whole cabinet in my house that's just filled with like random boxes and like packing paper.
00:24:37.768 --> 00:24:43.490
Like any box I get, I put in this cabinet and it was so funny because I was on vacation like a couple months ago.
00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:54.252
I was just like visiting home and I like was eating something and it came in a little box and I like literally set it aside as if I was like at my house like going to do enrichment with it.
00:24:54.252 --> 00:24:56.844
I was like, no, can, I'm supposed to throw this away.
00:24:57.265 --> 00:25:03.153
I couldn't physically get myself to throw away a box because I was so used to saving them.
00:25:03.461 --> 00:25:10.608
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't even use my recycling bin that much anymore because I just use all these recycle items.
00:25:10.855 --> 00:25:13.217
You have recycling machines at home.
00:25:13.217 --> 00:25:14.166
They're your dogs.
00:25:14.166 --> 00:25:15.618
They're just recycling machines.
00:25:15.618 --> 00:25:16.630
That's what I call it.
00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:21.564
Like they're just, they're just like fun appliances that can do other things for us.
00:25:23.148 --> 00:25:24.328
exactly.
00:25:25.789 --> 00:25:30.152
So I know that you have a lot of experience in the shelter world.
00:25:30.152 --> 00:25:36.554
Can you talk about maybe some experiences that you've had in the shelter?
00:25:38.271 --> 00:25:41.654
Yes, I have a lot of experiences about the shelter.
00:25:41.654 --> 00:25:43.714
I don't even know where to start.
00:25:44.115 --> 00:25:47.909
Of course, I initially started at the shelter when I was volunteering.
00:25:47.909 --> 00:25:56.003
I actually was offered a job at that shelter that I was volunteering at, which was pretty crazy to land that right after I became a dog trainer.
00:25:56.224 --> 00:26:06.417
So I did that for two and a half years and then did leave due to mental health reasons and then worked at a different shelter here in South Carolina.
00:26:06.417 --> 00:26:09.210
I moved for about a year and a half.
00:26:10.392 --> 00:26:18.730
I mostly would do a lot of work with the dogs who are displaying concerning behaviors as a behavior specialist.
00:26:18.730 --> 00:26:31.519
So any dogs who are displaying any levels of fear, aggressions, high levels of stress, maybe anxiety, maybe just lack of behavior, we would see a lot of dogs who would just sit in their kennel and not move, not eat.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:35.201
sometimes not even go potty or just go potty like where they were sitting.
00:26:35.323 --> 00:26:41.846
So I would do a lot of work with them and a lot of the work that I was doing was more so in the realm of an assessment.
00:26:41.846 --> 00:26:49.582
So I was kind of answering questions that we didn't have the answers to such as can this dog stop being this way?
00:26:49.582 --> 00:26:50.903
Can this dog come out of their shell?
00:26:50.903 --> 00:26:51.973
Can they stop being aggressive?
00:26:51.973 --> 00:26:53.335
Can they stop being so shut down?
00:26:53.335 --> 00:26:55.075
Can they learn to trust me?
00:26:56.135 --> 00:27:06.663
And then can we place the stock safely was kind of a big question that I would tend to answer, which is quite a large question to come to terms with.
00:27:06.944 --> 00:27:09.665
So I would do a lot of assessments with them.
00:27:10.027 --> 00:27:21.996
And a lot of the assessments had to do with me, honestly, just typically like if the dog was very aggressive, I would just play a treat retreat type game.
00:27:21.996 --> 00:27:29.175
where you're approaching the dog, you're tossing maybe a big hunk of hot dog or something really delicious and smelly, and then just walking away.
00:27:29.175 --> 00:27:33.435
And then I would do that like maybe like 30 times.
00:27:33.435 --> 00:27:43.395
And eventually at some point the dog may come up to the front of the kennel instead of hiding in the back, like anticipating my presence because they know that I'm maybe gonna drop something.
00:27:43.395 --> 00:27:46.715
And then of course moving into like, I get you out of your kennel?
00:27:46.715 --> 00:27:47.625
Can I handle you?
00:27:47.625 --> 00:27:48.516
Can I touch you?
00:27:48.516 --> 00:27:50.375
Are you in any pain?
00:27:51.210 --> 00:27:56.944
I of course wouldn't do any pain assessments in the sense of what a vet would do, because I'm not a vet.
00:27:56.944 --> 00:28:08.234
But I would typically do a bit of handling and just kind of look at their body to see, do I see anything that might notify that you're in some form of pain?
00:28:08.234 --> 00:28:11.176
So then I would obviously tell the doctor at that point.
00:28:11.637 --> 00:28:19.064
And then of course testing them with people and other dogs, just kind of trying to check out their general sociability status.
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:24.219
Yes, you're very scared and yes, you're being very upset and aggressive right now.
00:28:24.219 --> 00:28:25.612
That's okay.
00:28:25.612 --> 00:28:28.317
But can we get past that?
00:28:28.317 --> 00:28:32.384
And that was kind of what the majority of the work that I would do at the shelters.
00:28:33.515 --> 00:28:45.323
Yeah, and I think it's important that you mention that because, you know, there are a lot of cases where, you know, behavior issues may arise because of an underlying health issue.
00:28:45.738 --> 00:28:46.678
yeah, absolutely.
00:28:46.678 --> 00:28:52.970
I always mention, I feel like I talk about my foster dog, Emily, so much, but she is like, she's just so special.
00:28:52.970 --> 00:29:00.772
But she, she had double entropion, meaning that her eyelids were like inside her eyeballs, basically.
00:29:01.073 --> 00:29:07.575
So when I met her at the shelter, she was like, she was listed for euthanasia the day that I met her, just because she was so shut down.
00:29:07.575 --> 00:29:10.976
She was literally in her panel in the corner with her head.
00:29:10.996 --> 00:29:15.877
in the corner and she was just sitting there and she just fully avoided everything that was happening.
00:29:15.877 --> 00:29:17.327
I did was, I was able to get her out.
00:29:17.327 --> 00:29:19.519
She did get you a little bit better at the shelter.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.368
Regardless, all these things happen.
00:29:21.368 --> 00:29:27.221
I decided to take her home for foster because she wasn't going to go anywhere else at the shelter, if you will.
00:29:28.442 --> 00:29:29.981
And she, same thing here.
00:29:29.981 --> 00:29:30.852
She was very scared.
00:29:30.852 --> 00:29:31.923
She was very timid.
00:29:31.923 --> 00:29:36.134
If she saw my other dog, my actual personal dog, she would just fully avoid.
00:29:36.182 --> 00:29:39.702
So I kind of had this assumption that she wasn't social with dogs.
00:29:39.702 --> 00:29:43.275
Like maybe she just didn't like dogs if you're fully avoiding the other dog.
00:29:43.275 --> 00:29:49.217
And after she got surgery and her eyes healed, she is like extremely playful.
00:29:49.217 --> 00:29:50.508
She's not scared.
00:29:50.508 --> 00:29:55.210
I genuinely thought that she was like maybe semi -feral in some way because of how scared she was.
00:29:55.210 --> 00:29:57.381
I was like, you've never even like been in a house before.
00:29:57.381 --> 00:29:58.701
Like you're so scared.
00:29:58.701 --> 00:30:05.403
Literally the moment she recovered from her surgery, she was like not even the same dog because she just wasn't, she just wasn't in pain.
00:30:05.438 --> 00:30:13.291
and she finally maybe felt comfortable and wasn't feeling so, I can't imagine how painful that was to have your eyelids inside of your eyeballs.
00:30:13.291 --> 00:30:16.233
I can imagine that that sucked pretty bad for her.
00:30:16.273 --> 00:30:17.974
But yeah, now she is very playful.
00:30:17.974 --> 00:30:25.989
So that's a huge thing is that a lot of dogs, even going back to the topic of like, why we shouldn't be punishing behavior, right?
00:30:25.989 --> 00:30:34.963
Like if it was the other route where instead of avoiding, she was reacting in an aggressive manner because her eyes were so painful and she was so uncomfortable.
00:30:35.003 --> 00:30:39.115
and then I maybe used punishment and corrected that behavior, then what does that do?
00:30:39.115 --> 00:30:44.468
Like that's quite, if you think about it on a full spectrum, how unethical that is.
00:30:44.847 --> 00:30:54.981
But yeah, most dogs really display their pain with their behavior, large majority of the time, whether it's lack of behavior or like an aggressive or reactive response of some sort.
00:30:56.277 --> 00:30:57.728
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:57.728 --> 00:31:07.523
I mean, I think it's so important for the community to know that too, because they come, you know, saying that their dog is now randomly, you know, showing these behavior issues.
00:31:07.523 --> 00:31:12.467
And that's, you know, one of the first things they tell them, have you went to a vet to double check everything?
00:31:12.467 --> 00:31:24.342
Because we, you know, it's probably not out of nowhere, or there's something, something that we need to learn about their, you know, environment or their health.
00:31:24.342 --> 00:31:27.270
So definitely important.
00:31:27.916 --> 00:31:33.660
large majority of the aggression cases that I tend to get have a factor of pain of some sort.
00:31:34.020 --> 00:31:39.304
Or even like when I'm doing client intakes and I'm like, have an aggression inquiry.
00:31:39.304 --> 00:31:41.305
I'm going to chat with them and I call them on the phone.
00:31:41.305 --> 00:31:44.728
I'm typically asking like, when did this behavior start occurring?
00:31:44.728 --> 00:31:56.726
And if it's any like sudden onset, like they're like, just all of a sudden they started acting this way and they're really aggressive, then they're required to have like a full that workup before we even work together.
00:31:56.726 --> 00:32:01.405
Of course, with some cases I may still work with them if it sounds more behavioral than medical.
00:32:01.488 --> 00:32:05.789
But especially for like sudden onset, it's always typically a medical issue.
00:32:05.789 --> 00:32:08.500
I've had dogs who have had like torn ACLs.
00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:10.372
There was one dog, I can't remember the condition.
00:32:10.372 --> 00:32:13.972
It was something, it was some form of a condition in their brain.
00:32:13.972 --> 00:32:20.935
I don't know if it was like a brain tumor or something along those lines, but the dog was unfortunately euthanized due to the condition, but.
00:32:20.935 --> 00:32:27.770
It didn't, the dog didn't display any like issues in the sense of like, I'm in pain of any form.
00:32:27.770 --> 00:32:32.585
They acted normal, but all of a sudden they were being extremely aggressive towards the other dog in the house.
00:32:32.585 --> 00:32:37.608
And it was like a severe brain tumor of some sort that couldn't even be saved.
00:32:37.608 --> 00:32:46.395
It was like so, so extreme to that level, but yeah, it's super important to like know that that's how that behavior tends to a lot of times present itself.
00:32:47.540 --> 00:32:48.490
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:48.490 --> 00:32:52.673
And you also mentioned the mental health factor.
00:32:52.673 --> 00:33:09.760
I know here working in the shelter can be very stressful and a lot of time our community, they don't understand the pressures of us putting animals at risk or having that title.
00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:13.162
But that's the very last thing that we wanna do.
00:33:13.521 --> 00:33:15.563
It's a very hard decision.
00:33:16.059 --> 00:33:18.102
for us to get to that point.
00:33:18.523 --> 00:33:28.278
And if you feel comfortable, can you talk a little bit about how hard it is to be in the shelter world and having to come to these hard decisions?
00:33:28.894 --> 00:33:32.325
yeah, I love talking about my mental health.
00:33:32.506 --> 00:33:38.367
I love to think as funny as that sounds, but like just in the sense of like that there are a lot of times we just don't talk about it.
00:33:38.367 --> 00:33:55.925
A lot of times too, my experiences at the shelter, a lot of people just had that like dead face, us, especially like a lot of like the long -term animal control officers that I worked alongside, like I saw nothing from them because it was so shut off, but I think it's really important to like.
00:33:55.925 --> 00:33:58.316
feel your feelings, of course.
00:33:59.457 --> 00:34:04.998
But I've of course had my fair share of mental health issues from the shelter.
00:34:05.598 --> 00:34:11.119
I actually had to leave my first shelter job for mental health reasons alone.
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:18.402
I had developed this weird, I don't, I probably should have gotten actual help for it, but I didn't.
00:34:18.402 --> 00:34:25.650
But I developed this weird PTSD almost type response where I was essentially blacking out when I was hearing.
00:34:25.650 --> 00:34:57.411
barking, whether I was at home or at the shelter, I would like walk into the kennel room and like the kennel rooms are extremely loud for one and it was just kind of like everything would go blank and I was like hearing dogs barking as I was falling asleep, like types of stuff like that, but it is it's it's a really challenging place to be regardless of if you're someone who is more sensitive to things like loud noises or if you're a more empathetic person which Most people in the sheltering world are quite empathetic people.
00:34:57.411 --> 00:34:59.972
They're typically there because they are empathetic people.
00:35:00.253 --> 00:35:15.054
But it is so challenging and exhausting and heartbreaking and honestly horrible if we're being blunt because no matter what, of course it is very rewarding and it's something that is so special.
00:35:15.054 --> 00:35:21.500
At least in my opinion, I feel like anytime I've ever been in a shelter, it gives me the sense of belonging in a way.
00:35:21.500 --> 00:35:24.242
It gives me the sense of I can make it.
00:35:24.597 --> 00:35:27.349
Like I have a purpose, like I can do this.
00:35:27.349 --> 00:35:34.041
And it does give you those feelings, but at the end of the day, you can do whatever you want and you can work as hard as you can.
00:35:34.041 --> 00:35:35.530
And you can get the dogs out of the kennel.
00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:37.652
You can get them to stop acting aggressively.
00:35:37.652 --> 00:35:40.652
You can place the dogs in the homes, whatever it might be.
00:35:40.652 --> 00:35:45.213
But more times than not, at the end of the day, there's still more dogs than kennels.
00:35:45.554 --> 00:35:48.815
And you typically still have to make a decision whether you like it or not.
00:35:48.815 --> 00:35:56.186
And I think that that's something that shelter workers tend to get a lot of hate for because hey, we euthanize dogs or hey, you're a dog killer.
00:35:56.186 --> 00:36:13.201
I would get that all the time on my Instagram is like, wow, you work at, cause the shelter I worked at here in South Carolina was honestly, their numbers were pretty incredible for a municipal shelter that had both the city and the county for like their intake.
00:36:13.922 --> 00:36:15.782
But they were still kill shelter.
00:36:15.782 --> 00:36:22.344
They have decently higher euthanasia rates, but not really that high.
00:36:23.788 --> 00:36:26.648
And I would get it all the time that like, I support this.
00:36:26.648 --> 00:36:29.467
And it's like, I don't, this sucks.
00:36:29.467 --> 00:36:31.108
Like, I don't support this.
00:36:31.108 --> 00:36:34.668
I'm here because I'm trying to help it and I'm trying to fix it.
00:36:34.668 --> 00:36:38.097
But a lot of people don't understand that shelter workers don't really have a choice.
00:36:38.097 --> 00:36:42.487
Shelters don't have a choice when it comes to euthanasia.
00:36:42.728 --> 00:36:49.987
It's like, what truly, what do you do at the end of the day when there are 300 dogs and 280 cows?
00:36:49.987 --> 00:36:51.447
Do you take 20 dogs home?
00:36:51.447 --> 00:36:52.992
Well, I already have a foster dog.
00:36:52.992 --> 00:37:00.737
I already have my own dog and hey, all my coworkers also already have foster animals and we're all also burnt out and like really not okay.
00:37:01.217 --> 00:37:07.561
So it's kind of just like this endless horrible circle that you're involved in.
00:37:08.282 --> 00:37:14.025
But I think it's really important that the people that you work with are kind to you.
00:37:14.025 --> 00:37:22.706
I feel like whenever I've struggled the most with my mental health in shelter, it was because the people that I was working with, my coworkers were...
00:37:22.706 --> 00:37:26.639
not nice people or they were not being nice to me or that's always what tipped it over.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:40.469
Like I'd be feeling not so great, maybe I would know that hey I'm getting a little fatigued or I'm getting a little tired and then all of a sudden like drama sparks up and you're like I just I cannot handle this anymore.
00:37:40.469 --> 00:38:02.469
It's like that's like the last thing that any shelter worker needs is either like drama within the shelter or people being mean to each other or the public being mean to you as Both of those things are going to burn out your shelter worker immediately and a lot of times there are cases where like shelter workers don't ever go back into shelters because of those situations because it is so painful.
00:38:04.021 --> 00:38:06.492
Yeah, and I mean, it's unfortunate.
00:38:07.934 --> 00:38:15.922
But like you said, at least me, I feel like I belong here too and that I can really make an impact.
00:38:16.563 --> 00:38:18.903
we're hoping the future is better.
00:38:19.637 --> 00:38:20.277
Hopefully.
00:38:20.277 --> 00:38:26.750
There's, yeah, it's so like, because I always get the question too, is like, how do we resolve the issue?
00:38:26.750 --> 00:38:35.871
Because the issue is just like, there's an obnoxious amount of dogs that are not wanted, if you will, or not in a home.
00:38:35.871 --> 00:38:38.193
And it's just a constant cycle.
00:38:38.653 --> 00:38:42.965
So it's really just getting to the bottom of how can we stop the issue at hand?
00:38:42.965 --> 00:38:46.576
How can we stop this like, overpopulation crisis?
00:38:46.976 --> 00:39:12.137
And it's a lot of times it's not like a lot of people are like, ban breeding But in my opinion breeding is important, especially if it's being done well I think there are of course like obviously there's breeding that's being done poorly and that's why dogs are in shelters, but you don't see well bred Dogs that are typically purebred or have come from a good breeder ending up shelter systems.
00:39:12.137 --> 00:39:21.347
It's typically dogs who were either backyard bred or bred on the streets or it's like pregnant mama from the streets now has puppies in the shelter type of a thing.
00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:29.677
Of course you do get purebred dogs in the shelter but in most cases you're not getting a dog who comes from an ethical breeder to be in a shelter.
00:39:29.677 --> 00:39:31.460
It's typically just not familiar.
00:39:32.266 --> 00:39:33.708
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:34.269 --> 00:39:40.039
And earlier you mentioned that you have your own business.
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.012
Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:39:42.623 --> 00:39:49.346
Yeah, so I own a business here in Columbia, South Carolina, but I do do virtual consulting worldwide.
00:39:49.346 --> 00:39:53.726
So it's kind of just like, I own a business everywhere, it seems.
00:39:54.206 --> 00:39:59.248
But I consult primarily behavioral issues.
00:39:59.248 --> 00:40:04.650
So the large majority of my clients are dealing with either an aggression or a reactivity issue.
00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:11.072
However, I do also do really everything other than severe separation anxiety cases.
00:40:11.072 --> 00:40:12.469
I typically find that.
00:40:12.469 --> 00:40:21.344
people are better off with a specialist for a severe separation anxiety case, which I'm not specialist in that.
00:40:21.344 --> 00:40:30.327
So I'm primarily consulting with that, but I will do, like I saw sometimes get dogs that just like want to learn like a recall or just like how to learn on how to walk on a leash or something like that.
00:40:31.327 --> 00:40:35.521
But really it's my full -time job, of course.
00:40:35.521 --> 00:40:37.041
So I fully own and operate it.
00:40:37.041 --> 00:40:41.315
I have a few apprentices who will hopefully become maybe trainers, so I'll have some extra help.
00:40:41.315 --> 00:40:52.083
But outside of that, I do fully do everything myself, including admin work, client intake, notes, and of course, the actual consulting.
00:40:53.525 --> 00:40:58.175
Yeah, and I think that, mean, you're awesome for doing all of that.
00:40:58.175 --> 00:41:12.500
And I hope that our community, because you offer it virtually, will maybe check out your company because there are a lot of people here looking for training.
00:41:12.740 --> 00:41:17.072
But here in El Paso, like you said, it's not really regulated.
00:41:17.072 --> 00:41:20.543
So I think that's important to go with somebody that has.
00:41:21.311 --> 00:41:23.244
you know, the education to back it up.
00:41:23.244 --> 00:41:32.275
And so I really would hope that the community maybe reaches out to you for any help that they might need.
00:41:32.554 --> 00:41:33.503
Yeah, I would love that.
00:41:33.503 --> 00:41:35.085
You can always refer me out to people.
00:41:35.085 --> 00:41:37.518
I'm also, it's not like lunch yet.
00:41:37.518 --> 00:41:41.572
So I haven't really been talking about it too much because it's not even like soft lunch.
00:41:41.572 --> 00:41:53.340
But I'm in the process of creating this like online, basically like courses, books, guides, things like that, which will be very low cost and easily accessible.
00:41:53.762 --> 00:42:01.907
And it will, of course you can't do behavior modification like on a blanket.
00:42:02.257 --> 00:42:43.065
way right so you can't like just say every dog who's doing with this issue this will resolve that because behavior is a study of one but it will be pretty just like cut and dry like general like your dog is displaying this behavior like what are some things that may potentially ease that because maybe you don't have the resources to work with with me maybe you can't afford it maybe you don't have the time maybe you don't have whatever it might be so it will be something where people can log on and take at least a course to give them some insight about why their dog might be behaving a certain way, or they can even log on and get something like help with teaching a recall or something super basic as well like that.
00:42:43.065 --> 00:42:48.067
So that will be definitely something I'll be launching and there'll be a lot of shelter dog things in there, of course.
00:42:48.067 --> 00:42:53.289
There'll be a ton of like, you just adopted a dog from a shelter, what are we gonna do now?
00:42:53.469 --> 00:42:56.670
But hopefully that will be released maybe about mid fall.
00:42:56.670 --> 00:43:01.331
Hopefully, I keep saying like, September and then I get to September and I'm like, it's not done yet.
00:43:01.612 --> 00:43:05.114
But it's getting there.
00:43:05.635 --> 00:43:14.739
So yeah, so that should be a really nice resource that people can dive into if they feel like they need some help but can't maybe commit to working with somebody.
00:43:15.574 --> 00:43:26.876
Well that's amazing, that's a really great idea to have those resources readily available for people to get more insight on what could be triggering their pets.
00:43:26.876 --> 00:43:29.489
So I think that's amazing, that's awesome.
00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:30.960
I can't wait to see that.
00:43:31.132 --> 00:43:31.704
I'm excited.
00:43:31.704 --> 00:43:35.242
I'll have to send you the link when I finally release it.
00:43:38.132 --> 00:43:38.893
No rush.
00:43:38.893 --> 00:43:47.255
know it's a lot of work to put all that together and it's going to be amazing, I'm sure.
00:43:48.217 --> 00:44:03.663
Well, is there anything else that you would like to mention about your trainings or just in general about the shelter environment, positive reinforcement, force -free?
00:44:04.045 --> 00:44:04.766
not really.
00:44:04.766 --> 00:44:07.188
mean, I think we said mostly everything.
00:44:07.188 --> 00:44:09.471
Really, I commend all shelter workers.
00:44:09.471 --> 00:44:10.460
I know how hard that is.
00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:25.423
So if you are, of course, listening and you're working in a shelter, I hope that shelter workers at least feel like they do matter in some way, even though it's really hard to feel like you matter in a world like that when nothing that you do really fixes it.
00:44:25.784 --> 00:44:33.505
I hope that they at least know that they matter to the individual dogs that they are able because that's really important.
00:44:33.724 --> 00:44:36.025
we cannot save all of the dogs, right?
00:44:36.025 --> 00:44:49.268
Like, I'm being super corny here, but I think it is very, very noble to be able to at least make an impact on one dog, even if your only impact was offering them some sense of security.
00:44:49.268 --> 00:44:59.012
Even if you know that maybe the dog isn't going to make it out of the shelter and maybe this is it for them, maybe you were able to offer them an hour.
00:44:59.583 --> 00:45:07.927
or even a minute of calm peace where they were able to relax with you or eat some cookies or play a game or just get out of their kennel.
00:45:08.007 --> 00:45:13.630
I think that alone is something that a lot of times we forget about as shelter workers because it's not the big picture.
00:45:13.630 --> 00:45:17.974
It's like the smallest one possible, but it is, I think it's really impactful.
00:45:17.974 --> 00:45:23.186
Even if like the dogs of course can't tell you how impactful it is, but I'm sure that they would if they could.
00:45:23.978 --> 00:45:29.021
Yes, yes, that's very important to remember that.
00:45:29.463 --> 00:45:30.123
So thank you.
00:45:30.123 --> 00:45:31.384
Thank you for sharing that.
00:45:31.384 --> 00:45:35.766
That's amazing, especially for any shelter worker, really.
00:45:36.228 --> 00:45:39.469
Like you said, it's so easy to get burnt out in this environment.
00:45:39.469 --> 00:45:49.766
And hearing that from someone that is not a part of our team, I'm sure will give some sense of belonging here in our shelter.
00:45:49.766 --> 00:45:51.918
So thank you.
00:45:51.918 --> 00:45:53.309
Thank you for that.
00:45:53.856 --> 00:46:05.144
Well, if there's nothing else, we really want to thank you for joining us and taking the time out of your schedule to record this episode.
00:46:05.144 --> 00:46:13.322
I think it's going to be really beneficial for our community to hear it from someone other than our local shelter.
00:46:13.322 --> 00:46:20.697
So we thank you so much for joining us, Jenna, and thank you for all of your work.
00:46:21.298 --> 00:46:29.326
you know, like I said in the beginning, a lot of our workers here are your fan for all of amazing work that you're doing.
00:46:29.347 --> 00:46:38.045
And we truly appreciate the changes that you're making in pets lives and, you know, in the community that you're at as well.
00:46:38.411 --> 00:46:38.956
Thank you.
00:46:38.956 --> 00:46:39.670
Thank you so much.
00:46:39.670 --> 00:46:41.117
you so much, honestly.
00:46:42.231 --> 00:46:43.431
Thank you.
00:46:43.592 --> 00:46:48.494
So thank you all for joining us for another episode of EPAS Unleashed.
00:46:48.574 --> 00:46:54.398
You can go ahead and share, like, comment, subscribe, and we'll see you next time.
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:04.522
Hi everyone, welcome to EPAS Unleashed.
00:00:04.522 --> 00:00:08.845
I'm your host Jessica Navarro and today we have a very special guest.
00:00:08.845 --> 00:00:16.138
Many of our shelter workers are fans of this guest so we're really excited and honored to have her on.
00:00:16.820 --> 00:00:26.356
We're gonna be talking a little bit about training and before we dive into that topic, we'll go ahead and do a little intro with Jenna.
00:00:26.356 --> 00:00:27.385
Hi Jenna.
00:00:29.018 --> 00:00:30.445
Thank you for having me.
00:00:30.722 --> 00:00:32.393
No, thank you for being here.
00:00:32.393 --> 00:00:45.640
So for our listeners, I feel like a lot of people in animal welfare know you, but for our listeners that might not know you, can we get a little bit of an intro about you?
00:00:46.317 --> 00:00:48.616
Yeah, so my name is Jenna Polarito.
00:00:48.616 --> 00:00:56.837
I've been working with dogs for about 10 years, but going on my seventh year of being like a trainer or a behavior specialist.
00:00:57.156 --> 00:01:07.037
I started in doggie daycare, was initially a pooper scooper basically, and then I just like worked up to being like a head handler in the groups and all of that.
00:01:07.037 --> 00:01:12.236
Quickly became certified in dog training just because I thought it was really interesting.
00:01:12.236 --> 00:01:18.700
And then of course, like, moved on to working in shelters and now own a business as a behavior specialist.
00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:23.510
So I work pretty high level behavior modification cases.
00:01:24.361 --> 00:01:25.281
Awesome, awesome.
00:01:25.281 --> 00:01:30.375
And what made you want to start working in this field?
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I know you said you started as a a pooper scooper, but what made you want to pursue this?
00:01:38.668 --> 00:02:10.075
I just always really loved animals and just really loved dogs and I honestly just got I like applied for this job at the kennel not thinking that I would get it and then ended up getting it and then when I wanted to become a dog trainer and I was going through school for that I was required to volunteer in a shelter to like become a certified dog trainer and then that's basically what got me into animal welfare it's just the fact I was kind of, had to go volunteer and then was just like thrown into it just from that.
00:02:10.741 --> 00:02:15.764
Yeah, yeah, I feel like a lot of our volunteers, that happens to them too.
00:02:15.764 --> 00:02:22.637
They, you know, start off volunteering because they need it for whatever reason and then they end up loving it and they just stay.
00:02:25.299 --> 00:02:37.286
So to kind of jump into the training, of course, again, maybe this is something that people in animal welfare know, but our listeners might not be aware of it.
00:02:37.286 --> 00:02:39.712
But can we talk a little bit about force?
00:02:39.712 --> 00:02:41.014
free training.
00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:46.100
So, so I am, of course, a force -free dog trainer.
00:02:46.100 --> 00:03:01.126
So what that means, basically force -free dog training is a style of training where we're not using force or fear or pain, intimidation, punishment, corrections, anything like that as a behavior modification strategy.
00:03:01.126 --> 00:03:06.276
So like, yes, those types of things do exist in the world and we can't really avoid them.
00:03:06.276 --> 00:03:09.747
We don't have to use them as a way to modify behavior.
00:03:10.156 --> 00:03:16.580
So we're using primarily positive reinforcement to strengthen behaviors that we want the dogs to do or we want to see.
00:03:16.600 --> 00:03:22.885
We typically are applying some form of a management tactic to prevent the behaviors we don't want to see.
00:03:23.225 --> 00:03:36.195
And more cases than not, we're not only just using positive reinforcement by itself, but it's typically a mix of systematic desensitization, counter conditioning as well, especially if it's like a behavior modification case.
00:03:36.401 --> 00:03:49.536
But really we are primarily working on ensuring that the dog is opting in to the process, that they're essentially consenting to the process, that they want to be doing it, and we give them a choice in it as well.
00:03:50.296 --> 00:03:56.324
So it's as positive as we can make it and it should be really fun and really rewarding for everybody involved.
00:03:57.300 --> 00:04:07.657
Yeah, and that's so amazing because here at the shelter, we do see animals that come from different backgrounds.
00:04:07.758 --> 00:04:12.852
we know here that force -free training is so important, especially in the shelter life.
00:04:12.852 --> 00:04:23.836
So it's really something that we want to talk more about for our community to have in their mind and hopefully practice at home as well.
00:04:23.836 --> 00:04:26.194
yeah.
00:04:27.211 --> 00:04:29.235
And you mentioned positive reinforcement.
00:04:29.235 --> 00:04:32.081
Can we talk a little bit about what that is?
00:04:33.192 --> 00:04:34.773
Yep, so positive reinforcement.
00:04:34.773 --> 00:04:48.499
Positive means the addition of, so when we're thinking about all of the quadrants in the sense of like positive negative punishment, positive negative reinforcement, positive means to add, and then reinforcement is just going to strengthen the behavior.
00:04:48.499 --> 00:04:56.161
So when we positively reinforce the behavior, we are basically telling the learner or the dog to like do that again.
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So it's just the addition of something, the learner or the dog.
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and it's going to make that behavior happen more often, will strengthen it.
00:05:04.725 --> 00:05:07.387
It's kind of like going into work and getting a paycheck.
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Most people go to work and keep going to work because they're getting paid to go to work.
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So it's kind of, that's like a really easy, easy example of positive reinforcement is just like what motivates you to go to work.
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And most people are like, cause I get a paycheck and that's, that's quite literally all it is.
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Yeah, yeah, some of us are lucky.
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I mean, I love working.
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So I love being here for the animals and stuff, but I definitely would maybe like it a little less if I wasn't getting a paycheck.
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And can we talk a little bit about aversive methods and why we shouldn't use them?
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So aversive methods are essentially any tool or tactic that is inherently aversive or punishing or uncomfortable to the dog.
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So when we're thinking on a spectrum of positive punishment, punishment is working so the learner or the dog is avoiding that stimulus.
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So typically an aversive tool is something like an e -collar, prong collar, slip lead.
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Of course any tool can be aversive, just your voice or your hands can be aversive.
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But aversive tools inherently typically are going to be an e -collar or a prong collar because those things are like designed to be aversive.
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And then typically we don't want to use them.
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Research indicates basically recently that there are higher levels of Stress and aggression and fear when dogs or any species really are experiencing punishment or averse to tools in their day to day life.
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It's also linked to chronic stress and decreased responsiveness.
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So it's really just not worth the risk.
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in my opinion, to be constantly doing that to an animal.
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Also, especially in the sheltering world, the dogs are already extremely stressed.
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They're typically in a new place.
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In more cases than not, they're in severe levels of pain too.
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A lot of dogs come in with injuries or pre -existing conditions that they're already uncomfortable, they're terrified.
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We really don't want to be slapping more aversive things onto them when they're already so uncomfortable and so stressed.
00:07:21.855 --> 00:07:22.826
Yeah, definitely.
00:07:22.826 --> 00:07:36.648
mean, we know it here that these pets are just not their normal self because of how loud the noises are here, how the noise level is, know, people coming in and out and disturbing their sleep.
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And, you know, it's just a really stressful environment to be in the shelter.
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So adding that is definitely not something that we want to do.
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And I...
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Mainly work with kiddos.
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I'm the education coordinator, I usually go out and I'm to kids, teaching them, you know, hopefully to be better in animal welfare for the future.
00:08:00.774 --> 00:08:05.536
But we always talk about, do we think that pets have feelings?
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And I ask them, do you guys like being stressed or do you like to be anxious?
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And, you know, of course most of the time the kids are gonna be like, no, I don't like feeling that.
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I don't like feeling that.
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So I link that to, okay, well why would you want your doggy to feel like that?
00:08:20.708 --> 00:08:23.269
Why would you want your pet to feel like that?
00:08:23.389 --> 00:08:28.221
So that's, you know, something that I definitely always have in my mind too.
00:08:28.221 --> 00:08:31.293
I don't wanna make my pet stressed if I can help it.
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I'm gonna make them feel everything that I want to feel.
00:08:35.264 --> 00:08:35.964
Yeah.
00:08:35.964 --> 00:08:40.167
And something I always mentioned too is that behavior is communication.
00:08:40.167 --> 00:08:42.827
like dogs specifically like cannot talk to us.
00:08:42.827 --> 00:08:46.690
They can't be like, Hey, I feel this way or Hey, my leg hurts or this is happening.
00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:52.583
so when they are behaving, whether it's a behavior that we like or not, they're communicating with us.
00:08:52.583 --> 00:08:55.355
then when we're punishing that behavior and saying, Hey, don't do that.
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Then they're just like, well then they can't communicate with us at that point.
00:08:59.236 --> 00:09:04.710
even like low level aggression or reactivity can be a pain response by itself.
00:09:04.880 --> 00:09:11.172
So especially with those types of cases, we don't want to be taking away a dog's ability to communicate with us.
00:09:12.181 --> 00:09:14.634
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:14.634 --> 00:09:18.927
Like you said, they don't speak English or Spanish or any other language that we understand.
00:09:18.927 --> 00:09:23.423
So they show us what their body or with their emotions.
00:09:23.423 --> 00:09:28.366
So it's definitely important that we, like you said, don't restrain them from doing that.
00:09:28.967 --> 00:09:35.764
Here in El Paso, we do have a lot of that alpha mentality.
00:09:36.163 --> 00:09:38.826
Can we talk a little bit?
00:09:38.826 --> 00:09:40.538
Maybe where you are too.
00:09:40.538 --> 00:09:41.831
I don't know.
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We have a big issue here with that.
00:09:45.259 --> 00:09:53.278
It's definitely everywhere because it was so popularized given like reality TV and all of that.
00:09:53.278 --> 00:09:59.080
But dominance theory and like alpha theory, that whole thing was debunked in the early 2000s.
00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.059
I don't know the exact year, honestly.
00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:06.139
I wanna say like 2006 maybe or 2008 by Dr.
00:10:06.139 --> 00:10:08.840
David Meck who created the theory.
00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:14.100
So it's like, it's not accurate by any means, even if it maybe was.
00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:16.421
Accurate dogs are also not wolves.
00:10:16.421 --> 00:10:39.424
So it's like doesn't really it's not relevant whatsoever But yeah, the theory was originally on captive wolves that didn't know each other whatsoever So it was just like random wolves that they took from the wild and put together And they were primarily fighting over resources like food and water Whereas typically like wild wolves the hierarchy has to do with just the family members.
00:10:39.424 --> 00:10:45.961
So typically like the alpha wolf if you will, is just typically the oldest, strongest wolf.
00:10:45.961 --> 00:10:49.504
So it's like the father, if you think of it that way.
00:10:49.504 --> 00:10:52.144
And that's quite literally how they create a hierarchy.
00:10:52.144 --> 00:10:58.447
It has nothing to do with fighting for resources or establishing it by themselves.
00:10:59.434 --> 00:11:08.142
Yeah, and I think it's really important for people to understand that the doctor who created this whole theory is saying, no, I was wrong.
00:11:11.292 --> 00:11:12.533
Yes, yeah.
00:11:12.533 --> 00:11:18.317
actually have a big page on my website that's talking about force -free dog training and all of that.
00:11:18.317 --> 00:11:23.042
And I have his video link of him debunking it.
00:11:23.042 --> 00:11:35.498
Because it is, I do of course get a lot of clients who are pretty educated and pretty understanding of modern things, but I still always do get some clients who are like, yeah, my dog thinks they're alpha.
00:11:35.498 --> 00:11:37.341
And it's like, I'm just like, okay, cool.
00:11:37.341 --> 00:11:44.067
Tell me more about that just so that I can get some information and then slowly teach them like, that's probably not what's happening.
00:11:44.067 --> 00:11:45.830
It's probably something else.
00:11:46.153 --> 00:11:48.923
Yeah, yeah, same here.
00:11:48.923 --> 00:11:53.426
We hear it all the time and same as you do.
00:11:53.426 --> 00:11:59.988
Tell me a little bit more about this just so that I can inform you about what is really going on.
00:12:01.349 --> 00:12:08.010
Yeah, so I just think it's important that people know that the doctor who said that this...
00:12:08.010 --> 00:12:13.804
theory came to be is the same one trying so hard to be like, no, I was wrong.
00:12:13.804 --> 00:12:16.475
And I think that's so important, admitting you're wrong.
00:12:16.475 --> 00:12:19.278
I at least commend him for doing that.
00:12:19.466 --> 00:12:23.898
Yeah, I know he has mentioned that like he fully regrets even doing all of that.
00:12:23.898 --> 00:12:31.842
And like he said that his large majority of time that he spends in his career is just telling people that it's actually not an accurate theory whatsoever.
00:12:31.842 --> 00:12:38.626
But I think it still gets so much traction because of the fact that training and behavior is an unregulated field.
00:12:38.626 --> 00:12:46.630
So there are dog trainers that are behavior specialists or whatever they want to call themselves that have zero certifications to back that up.
00:12:46.630 --> 00:12:48.096
They just kind of are making up.
00:12:48.096 --> 00:12:49.749
whatever they want as they go.
00:12:49.749 --> 00:12:58.412
So I think that alone is like, it's just continuing to build that because there are so many dog trainers who are still saying that it's accurate when it's not.
00:12:58.412 --> 00:13:01.735
It's just because they are maybe not as educated.
00:13:02.270 --> 00:13:08.326
Yes, and I think that is also a really important point is there are no regulations.
00:13:08.326 --> 00:13:14.961
So, you know, somebody could go watch a YouTube channel on alpha training and there I'm certified.
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:16.922
Yep, seriously, yeah.
00:13:16.922 --> 00:13:23.657
I always compare it to being a hairdresser, like, I style my hair every day, but that doesn't make me a hairstylist.
00:13:23.657 --> 00:13:25.969
Or like, I brush my teeth, I'm not a dentist.
00:13:25.969 --> 00:13:38.899
Because there are a lot of dog trainers that just have had a dog, and they're like, yeah, I trained my dog, I can now consult everybody else how to do it, and it's just really inaccurate and not the right thing to be doing.
00:13:39.211 --> 00:13:40.272
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:13:40.272 --> 00:13:45.395
I mean, I've been at the shelter for five years and I would not consider myself a dog trainer.
00:13:45.917 --> 00:13:48.600
People come up to me and they ask me all the time, how do I do this?
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:50.380
How do I make my dog do this?
00:13:50.380 --> 00:13:56.446
And I mean, I have some education, but I by no means would call myself a dog trainer.
00:13:57.827 --> 00:13:58.849
Yes.
00:13:59.009 --> 00:13:59.769
And...
00:14:01.099 --> 00:14:06.292
You did mention that you work with reactive dogs or aggressive dogs.
00:14:06.292 --> 00:14:09.557
Can we talk a little bit about the difference between those two?
00:14:10.272 --> 00:14:12.253
The difference between reactivity and aggression?
00:14:12.253 --> 00:14:13.614
Yep, absolutely.
00:14:13.913 --> 00:14:16.716
Those are the large majority of my cases.
00:14:16.716 --> 00:14:20.258
I became a specialist because I was just like, every case I was getting was that.
00:14:20.258 --> 00:14:23.278
And then I was just like, okay, I guess I might as well specialize in this.
00:14:23.419 --> 00:14:32.825
But how I like to explain it is that aggression is intent to do harm or attempt to do harm, if you will.
00:14:32.825 --> 00:14:38.837
So an aggression case is going to be a dog who has either bitten somebody or another dog or whatever.
00:14:38.837 --> 00:14:41.370
be or is attempting to bite another dog.
00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:44.392
And body language is of course going to look a whole lot different.
00:14:44.393 --> 00:14:52.999
With a reactivity case, it's typically just exactly as it sounds, the dog is reacting to a certain stimulus.
00:14:53.139 --> 00:14:57.543
And the reactions can come from, sometimes can be coming from a place of aggression.
00:14:57.543 --> 00:15:09.270
So we can sometimes have a dog who is highly reactive to a certain stimulus such as a dog and The reason that they are reactive is because they are aggressive and then of course there's other reasons as to maybe why they're aggressive.
00:15:09.331 --> 00:15:18.157
But with a lot of reactivity cases, it's a lot of just barking and noise and they're frustrated and maybe they are showing their teeth, maybe they aren't lunging.
00:15:18.216 --> 00:15:24.220
A lot of that behavior is just due to either frustration or fear or stress.
00:15:24.321 --> 00:15:30.543
A lot of it just comes from the fact of they can typically see a stimulus like a dog or a person and they can't.
00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:39.726
That said stimulus, because they're on a leash or they're behind a door or whatever it might be, so then of course frustration easily builds and then they are reacting.
00:15:39.726 --> 00:15:52.355
And I like to always think of it as like if they are displaying really high levels of like lunging or like maybe they look quote -unquote aggressive in some way, but they actually aren't aggressive, they're just reactive.
00:15:52.355 --> 00:15:55.839
It's a lot of that aggression is just due to the fact that they are stuck.
00:15:55.839 --> 00:15:58.110
Like they can't move forward.
00:15:58.301 --> 00:16:04.711
So they're not actually aggressive, they're just upset that they can't go forward or they can't access said thing.
00:16:05.054 --> 00:16:05.855
Mm -hmm.
00:16:06.176 --> 00:16:20.267
Yeah, I think it's really important for the community to know the difference between the two just because, you know, like you said, there's a dog that is barking and automatically the person's like, he's aggressive.
00:16:20.327 --> 00:16:24.201
And no, usually they're just reacting to something like you said.
00:16:24.553 --> 00:16:25.085
Yeah.
00:16:25.085 --> 00:16:31.250
And sometimes dogs who are reactive could be reacting out of like a, almost like a positive emotion.
00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:33.490
Like they're very excited and they're very happy.
00:16:33.971 --> 00:16:46.231
and their body language shows that maybe, but, or maybe it doesn't sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, regardless, the, the underlying emotion that's causing it is like, they're just excited and like, they want to say hi to the people, they're the dogs.
00:16:46.231 --> 00:16:48.143
So they're like, just like barking about it.
00:16:49.150 --> 00:16:54.562
Yeah, and I have one of those dogs man he Yeah, not to help him either.
00:16:54.562 --> 00:16:59.174
He's he's pretty he's a large large dog And he's an all -black dog.
00:16:59.174 --> 00:17:13.878
So he looks very scary Of course when he's when he's barking and every time I have to let people know like he's just barking because he's excited I know he looks scary, but Yeah, he's super excited That's funny.
00:17:13.878 --> 00:17:26.223
And usually you can tell with body language, but sometimes, sometimes you do get that where it's like, the dog is not necessarily aggressive, but their body language almost in a way is pointing that direction because they are just so frustrated.
00:17:26.223 --> 00:17:29.644
So it's not like they're aggressive towards the thing they're reacting at.
00:17:29.644 --> 00:17:44.528
They're almost aggressive towards like the fact that they're on a leash or like they're, I always like compare it to clients as like, Imagine like you're going somewhere that you're really excited to be at, like for that level of reactivity, where they're excited or they're frustrated that they can't access.
00:17:44.528 --> 00:17:49.381
You're driving somewhere and you're like stoked to be there, like it's a concert or whatever, it's something you've been awaiting.
00:17:49.381 --> 00:18:04.759
And then like all of a sudden you get stuck in like really bad traffic and you're like very frustrated, but you're not, doesn't necessarily like, you may like react, you might like yell or whatever, whatever people tend to sometimes do in those situations, but you're not like an aggressive person.
00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:05.310
You're just.
00:18:05.310 --> 00:18:09.744
yeah yeah that's always how I tend to explain it to people.
00:18:10.068 --> 00:18:12.121
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:18:12.982 --> 00:18:23.005
And something we do a lot here, and I love working at the shelter because I learned so many tricks, but enrichment, can we talk a little bit about enrichment?
00:18:23.453 --> 00:18:34.148
yeah, enrichment is like the biggest thing I swear that I do, even though I hardly, it's like only a portion of what I'm doing, but it's like the whole picture a lot of the time.
00:18:35.130 --> 00:18:38.811
Are you asking about enrichment for shelter dogs or just in general?
00:18:39.232 --> 00:18:47.568
Just in general, think it is important for the community to know what it is and how they can do that with their pets at home.
00:18:47.568 --> 00:18:55.134
Because that's something that I didn't know about until I worked at the shelter and I learned all of these things that we do here with our shelter pets.
00:18:55.134 --> 00:18:57.595
I'm like, well, maybe I could do that with my pets at home.
00:18:57.595 --> 00:19:01.998
And it has made a tremendous difference in their lives.
00:19:02.806 --> 00:19:03.766
Awesome, yeah.
00:19:03.766 --> 00:19:06.627
No, at home enrichment is honestly quite simple.
00:19:06.907 --> 00:19:11.790
I always like to say that your dog is a captive animal inside your home because they are.
00:19:11.790 --> 00:19:17.534
Like, yes, they're a domesticated animal, but they're still an animal and they are captive because they live inside your house.
00:19:17.534 --> 00:19:20.076
So you're holding an animal in captivity.
00:19:20.195 --> 00:19:26.479
So then we like to think about like the species specific natural behaviors that a dog may display.
00:19:27.690 --> 00:19:35.825
kind of thinking of it almost as like they do in zoos where they're trying to like mimic a natural response or natural behaviors for those animals.
00:19:36.145 --> 00:19:42.549
So enrichment of course is pretty individualized and it can be very specific for a lot of dogs.
00:19:42.631 --> 00:19:50.036
But species specific behaviors, I always explain like six big main ones are chewing, which everyone knows.
00:19:50.036 --> 00:19:51.747
Everyone knows that dogs have to on bones.
00:19:51.747 --> 00:19:55.872
Like that's the one that I feel like most people know I need to get my dog a bone to chew on.
00:19:55.872 --> 00:19:59.494
But chewing is a big species specific natural behavior.
00:19:59.516 --> 00:20:10.846
We also have shredding, dissecting, scavenging, sniffing, digging, and licking are typically the main ones that I tend to describe.
00:20:12.048 --> 00:20:18.044
And really a lot of that is, like for example, obviously bones are great for chewing.
00:20:18.044 --> 00:20:20.587
I typically recommend that.
00:20:20.587 --> 00:20:30.830
people either allow their dogs to dig in their yard or give them like a digging pit or something to encourage that behavior in some way, because it is natural.
00:20:31.191 --> 00:20:34.481
And then typically for scavenging, snuffle mats are really great.
00:20:34.481 --> 00:20:36.653
Snuffle mats have become very popular nowadays.
00:20:36.653 --> 00:20:39.624
You can sometimes find them in the pet stores recently, which I've noticed.
00:20:39.624 --> 00:20:42.114
You used to not be able to find them there.
00:20:42.153 --> 00:20:44.974
But snuffle mats have become much more popularized.
00:20:45.095 --> 00:20:47.675
That's just to do some scavenging.
00:20:47.776 --> 00:20:57.121
You can also even make scavenging boxes out of a cardboard box and packing paper, and the dog can sniff through the paper to find the food.
00:20:57.461 --> 00:21:09.167
Shredding and dissecting is a big one that a lot of people skip because their dog may rip up a stuffed animal, and then they're like, I'm not going to buy those anymore because the dog just destroyed it.
00:21:09.167 --> 00:21:10.627
They're ungrateful.
00:21:10.888 --> 00:21:14.590
But it is a predatory behavior.
00:21:14.590 --> 00:21:21.013
So it has to do with the predation sequence of a dog wanting to rip up an animal, prey animal of some sort.
00:21:21.895 --> 00:21:32.213
So I either get very low cost toys for my dogs to purposely rip up, sometimes I also go to the dollar store and grab a couple and I know that they're probably gonna rip them up and I'm like, that's cool, that's what I bought them for.
00:21:32.213 --> 00:21:36.866
But a lot of times I do make, I call them DIY carcasses.
00:21:37.188 --> 00:21:42.332
I have a terrier, I have a terrier at home so she loves to rip up stuff.
00:21:42.443 --> 00:21:58.973
But I'm basically just hiding food in like paper like packing paper or like small little boxes and I'm like rolling it up and putting it in like a big box like a cereal box or even like a like a box that like cans of soda would come in and I just kind of hide a bunch of food in the box of the papers.
00:21:58.973 --> 00:22:08.605
The paper a lot of times feels like it's like mimicking guts in a way and then the dog will like grab the box and rip it open eat the insides same way that they may you know.
00:22:08.605 --> 00:22:12.117
open a prey animal and eat the insides.
00:22:12.338 --> 00:22:14.361
So that's a really big one that I recommend.
00:22:14.361 --> 00:22:17.383
That's a really big like stress relieving one too.
00:22:18.443 --> 00:22:20.665
So that one's pretty massive.
00:22:21.267 --> 00:22:27.171
Sniffing is a huge natural behavior that can be really enriching for dogs as well.
00:22:27.332 --> 00:22:32.786
Sniffing is a dog's primary sense so they don't really see the world like we do.
00:22:32.786 --> 00:22:34.576
They tend to smell it.
00:22:34.597 --> 00:22:36.919
They have quite a massive nose.
00:22:37.708 --> 00:22:46.327
So a lot of times I recommend that my clients go on decompression walks, which are walks in nature where the dogs are allowed freedom of movement.
00:22:46.327 --> 00:22:52.768
So basically you're just taking your dog to maybe a quiet field or we go to a cemetery quite often.
00:22:52.768 --> 00:22:58.917
And I put my dog on like maybe a 30 to 50 foot leash and I quite literally just like follow her around.
00:22:58.917 --> 00:23:02.092
Like obviously like I'm not following her into traffic.
00:23:02.276 --> 00:23:07.980
There are rules, but I'm mostly just kind of holding the leash and saying hey, where do you want to go?
00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:17.047
Or like we even have a trail system near our area that like is winding and there's lots of options of where to walk and like instead of me choosing we're gonna go this way.
00:23:17.047 --> 00:23:34.519
I just let her choose and then I'm just like following along The decompression walks can be really really enriching as well But really I just recommend that you find what your dog seems to enjoy doing and stick with that Some dogs don't really enjoy to strip up stuff, even though some dogs may.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:36.800
It's quite individualized.
00:23:37.082 --> 00:23:40.005
Also something to consider is the dog's breed.
00:23:40.005 --> 00:23:48.270
So if you have a specific type of a breed, that might give you information of what types of behaviors they may like to display, what did we breed them for.
00:23:48.291 --> 00:23:54.096
So really, enrichment is just a huge conversation about natural behavior and how we can get a dog to display it.
00:23:55.348 --> 00:24:08.984
Yeah, yeah, and I mean, I have two huskies at home, usually around, people probably don't get it, but most animal welfare people are like, huskies.
00:24:09.526 --> 00:24:20.906
But yes, so like you mentioned, the box thing, I usually during the holidays, I don't like going shopping anymore because it's just so crazy out there.
00:24:20.906 --> 00:24:30.385
So I do all my shopping online, but my dogs, know like, man, it's holiday season, because we're getting all these boxes of enrichment.
00:24:31.569 --> 00:24:32.297
Yeah.
00:24:32.297 --> 00:24:37.768
like a whole cabinet in my house that's just filled with like random boxes and like packing paper.
00:24:37.768 --> 00:24:43.490
Like any box I get, I put in this cabinet and it was so funny because I was on vacation like a couple months ago.
00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:54.252
I was just like visiting home and I like was eating something and it came in a little box and I like literally set it aside as if I was like at my house like going to do enrichment with it.
00:24:54.252 --> 00:24:56.844
I was like, no, can, I'm supposed to throw this away.
00:24:57.265 --> 00:25:03.153
I couldn't physically get myself to throw away a box because I was so used to saving them.
00:25:03.461 --> 00:25:10.608
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't even use my recycling bin that much anymore because I just use all these recycle items.
00:25:10.855 --> 00:25:13.217
You have recycling machines at home.
00:25:13.217 --> 00:25:14.166
They're your dogs.
00:25:14.166 --> 00:25:15.618
They're just recycling machines.
00:25:15.618 --> 00:25:16.630
That's what I call it.
00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:21.564
Like they're just, they're just like fun appliances that can do other things for us.
00:25:23.148 --> 00:25:24.328
exactly.
00:25:25.789 --> 00:25:30.152
So I know that you have a lot of experience in the shelter world.
00:25:30.152 --> 00:25:36.554
Can you talk about maybe some experiences that you've had in the shelter?
00:25:38.271 --> 00:25:41.654
Yes, I have a lot of experiences about the shelter.
00:25:41.654 --> 00:25:43.714
I don't even know where to start.
00:25:44.115 --> 00:25:47.909
Of course, I initially started at the shelter when I was volunteering.
00:25:47.909 --> 00:25:56.003
I actually was offered a job at that shelter that I was volunteering at, which was pretty crazy to land that right after I became a dog trainer.
00:25:56.224 --> 00:26:06.417
So I did that for two and a half years and then did leave due to mental health reasons and then worked at a different shelter here in South Carolina.
00:26:06.417 --> 00:26:09.210
I moved for about a year and a half.
00:26:10.392 --> 00:26:18.730
I mostly would do a lot of work with the dogs who are displaying concerning behaviors as a behavior specialist.
00:26:18.730 --> 00:26:31.519
So any dogs who are displaying any levels of fear, aggressions, high levels of stress, maybe anxiety, maybe just lack of behavior, we would see a lot of dogs who would just sit in their kennel and not move, not eat.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:35.201
sometimes not even go potty or just go potty like where they were sitting.
00:26:35.323 --> 00:26:41.846
So I would do a lot of work with them and a lot of the work that I was doing was more so in the realm of an assessment.
00:26:41.846 --> 00:26:49.582
So I was kind of answering questions that we didn't have the answers to such as can this dog stop being this way?
00:26:49.582 --> 00:26:50.903
Can this dog come out of their shell?
00:26:50.903 --> 00:26:51.973
Can they stop being aggressive?
00:26:51.973 --> 00:26:53.335
Can they stop being so shut down?
00:26:53.335 --> 00:26:55.075
Can they learn to trust me?
00:26:56.135 --> 00:27:06.663
And then can we place the stock safely was kind of a big question that I would tend to answer, which is quite a large question to come to terms with.
00:27:06.944 --> 00:27:09.665
So I would do a lot of assessments with them.
00:27:10.027 --> 00:27:21.996
And a lot of the assessments had to do with me, honestly, just typically like if the dog was very aggressive, I would just play a treat retreat type game.
00:27:21.996 --> 00:27:29.175
where you're approaching the dog, you're tossing maybe a big hunk of hot dog or something really delicious and smelly, and then just walking away.
00:27:29.175 --> 00:27:33.435
And then I would do that like maybe like 30 times.
00:27:33.435 --> 00:27:43.395
And eventually at some point the dog may come up to the front of the kennel instead of hiding in the back, like anticipating my presence because they know that I'm maybe gonna drop something.
00:27:43.395 --> 00:27:46.715
And then of course moving into like, I get you out of your kennel?
00:27:46.715 --> 00:27:47.625
Can I handle you?
00:27:47.625 --> 00:27:48.516
Can I touch you?
00:27:48.516 --> 00:27:50.375
Are you in any pain?
00:27:51.210 --> 00:27:56.944
I of course wouldn't do any pain assessments in the sense of what a vet would do, because I'm not a vet.
00:27:56.944 --> 00:28:08.234
But I would typically do a bit of handling and just kind of look at their body to see, do I see anything that might notify that you're in some form of pain?
00:28:08.234 --> 00:28:11.176
So then I would obviously tell the doctor at that point.
00:28:11.637 --> 00:28:19.064
And then of course testing them with people and other dogs, just kind of trying to check out their general sociability status.
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:24.219
Yes, you're very scared and yes, you're being very upset and aggressive right now.
00:28:24.219 --> 00:28:25.612
That's okay.
00:28:25.612 --> 00:28:28.317
But can we get past that?
00:28:28.317 --> 00:28:32.384
And that was kind of what the majority of the work that I would do at the shelters.
00:28:33.515 --> 00:28:45.323
Yeah, and I think it's important that you mention that because, you know, there are a lot of cases where, you know, behavior issues may arise because of an underlying health issue.
00:28:45.738 --> 00:28:46.678
yeah, absolutely.
00:28:46.678 --> 00:28:52.970
I always mention, I feel like I talk about my foster dog, Emily, so much, but she is like, she's just so special.
00:28:52.970 --> 00:29:00.772
But she, she had double entropion, meaning that her eyelids were like inside her eyeballs, basically.
00:29:01.073 --> 00:29:07.575
So when I met her at the shelter, she was like, she was listed for euthanasia the day that I met her, just because she was so shut down.
00:29:07.575 --> 00:29:10.976
She was literally in her panel in the corner with her head.
00:29:10.996 --> 00:29:15.877
in the corner and she was just sitting there and she just fully avoided everything that was happening.
00:29:15.877 --> 00:29:17.327
I did was, I was able to get her out.
00:29:17.327 --> 00:29:19.519
She did get you a little bit better at the shelter.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.368
Regardless, all these things happen.
00:29:21.368 --> 00:29:27.221
I decided to take her home for foster because she wasn't going to go anywhere else at the shelter, if you will.
00:29:28.442 --> 00:29:29.981
And she, same thing here.
00:29:29.981 --> 00:29:30.852
She was very scared.
00:29:30.852 --> 00:29:31.923
She was very timid.
00:29:31.923 --> 00:29:36.134
If she saw my other dog, my actual personal dog, she would just fully avoid.
00:29:36.182 --> 00:29:39.702
So I kind of had this assumption that she wasn't social with dogs.
00:29:39.702 --> 00:29:43.275
Like maybe she just didn't like dogs if you're fully avoiding the other dog.
00:29:43.275 --> 00:29:49.217
And after she got surgery and her eyes healed, she is like extremely playful.
00:29:49.217 --> 00:29:50.508
She's not scared.
00:29:50.508 --> 00:29:55.210
I genuinely thought that she was like maybe semi -feral in some way because of how scared she was.
00:29:55.210 --> 00:29:57.381
I was like, you've never even like been in a house before.
00:29:57.381 --> 00:29:58.701
Like you're so scared.
00:29:58.701 --> 00:30:05.403
Literally the moment she recovered from her surgery, she was like not even the same dog because she just wasn't, she just wasn't in pain.
00:30:05.438 --> 00:30:13.291
and she finally maybe felt comfortable and wasn't feeling so, I can't imagine how painful that was to have your eyelids inside of your eyeballs.
00:30:13.291 --> 00:30:16.233
I can imagine that that sucked pretty bad for her.
00:30:16.273 --> 00:30:17.974
But yeah, now she is very playful.
00:30:17.974 --> 00:30:25.989
So that's a huge thing is that a lot of dogs, even going back to the topic of like, why we shouldn't be punishing behavior, right?
00:30:25.989 --> 00:30:34.963
Like if it was the other route where instead of avoiding, she was reacting in an aggressive manner because her eyes were so painful and she was so uncomfortable.
00:30:35.003 --> 00:30:39.115
and then I maybe used punishment and corrected that behavior, then what does that do?
00:30:39.115 --> 00:30:44.468
Like that's quite, if you think about it on a full spectrum, how unethical that is.
00:30:44.847 --> 00:30:54.981
But yeah, most dogs really display their pain with their behavior, large majority of the time, whether it's lack of behavior or like an aggressive or reactive response of some sort.
00:30:56.277 --> 00:30:57.728
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:57.728 --> 00:31:07.523
I mean, I think it's so important for the community to know that too, because they come, you know, saying that their dog is now randomly, you know, showing these behavior issues.
00:31:07.523 --> 00:31:12.467
And that's, you know, one of the first things they tell them, have you went to a vet to double check everything?
00:31:12.467 --> 00:31:24.342
Because we, you know, it's probably not out of nowhere, or there's something, something that we need to learn about their, you know, environment or their health.
00:31:24.342 --> 00:31:27.270
So definitely important.
00:31:27.916 --> 00:31:33.660
large majority of the aggression cases that I tend to get have a factor of pain of some sort.
00:31:34.020 --> 00:31:39.304
Or even like when I'm doing client intakes and I'm like, have an aggression inquiry.
00:31:39.304 --> 00:31:41.305
I'm going to chat with them and I call them on the phone.
00:31:41.305 --> 00:31:44.728
I'm typically asking like, when did this behavior start occurring?
00:31:44.728 --> 00:31:56.726
And if it's any like sudden onset, like they're like, just all of a sudden they started acting this way and they're really aggressive, then they're required to have like a full that workup before we even work together.
00:31:56.726 --> 00:32:01.405
Of course, with some cases I may still work with them if it sounds more behavioral than medical.
00:32:01.488 --> 00:32:05.789
But especially for like sudden onset, it's always typically a medical issue.
00:32:05.789 --> 00:32:08.500
I've had dogs who have had like torn ACLs.
00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:10.372
There was one dog, I can't remember the condition.
00:32:10.372 --> 00:32:13.972
It was something, it was some form of a condition in their brain.
00:32:13.972 --> 00:32:20.935
I don't know if it was like a brain tumor or something along those lines, but the dog was unfortunately euthanized due to the condition, but.
00:32:20.935 --> 00:32:27.770
It didn't, the dog didn't display any like issues in the sense of like, I'm in pain of any form.
00:32:27.770 --> 00:32:32.585
They acted normal, but all of a sudden they were being extremely aggressive towards the other dog in the house.
00:32:32.585 --> 00:32:37.608
And it was like a severe brain tumor of some sort that couldn't even be saved.
00:32:37.608 --> 00:32:46.395
It was like so, so extreme to that level, but yeah, it's super important to like know that that's how that behavior tends to a lot of times present itself.
00:32:47.540 --> 00:32:48.490
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:48.490 --> 00:32:52.673
And you also mentioned the mental health factor.
00:32:52.673 --> 00:33:09.760
I know here working in the shelter can be very stressful and a lot of time our community, they don't understand the pressures of us putting animals at risk or having that title.
00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:13.162
But that's the very last thing that we wanna do.
00:33:13.521 --> 00:33:15.563
It's a very hard decision.
00:33:16.059 --> 00:33:18.102
for us to get to that point.
00:33:18.523 --> 00:33:28.278
And if you feel comfortable, can you talk a little bit about how hard it is to be in the shelter world and having to come to these hard decisions?
00:33:28.894 --> 00:33:32.325
yeah, I love talking about my mental health.
00:33:32.506 --> 00:33:38.367
I love to think as funny as that sounds, but like just in the sense of like that there are a lot of times we just don't talk about it.
00:33:38.367 --> 00:33:55.925
A lot of times too, my experiences at the shelter, a lot of people just had that like dead face, us, especially like a lot of like the long -term animal control officers that I worked alongside, like I saw nothing from them because it was so shut off, but I think it's really important to like.
00:33:55.925 --> 00:33:58.316
feel your feelings, of course.
00:33:59.457 --> 00:34:04.998
But I've of course had my fair share of mental health issues from the shelter.
00:34:05.598 --> 00:34:11.119
I actually had to leave my first shelter job for mental health reasons alone.
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:18.402
I had developed this weird, I don't, I probably should have gotten actual help for it, but I didn't.
00:34:18.402 --> 00:34:25.650
But I developed this weird PTSD almost type response where I was essentially blacking out when I was hearing.
00:34:25.650 --> 00:34:57.411
barking, whether I was at home or at the shelter, I would like walk into the kennel room and like the kennel rooms are extremely loud for one and it was just kind of like everything would go blank and I was like hearing dogs barking as I was falling asleep, like types of stuff like that, but it is it's it's a really challenging place to be regardless of if you're someone who is more sensitive to things like loud noises or if you're a more empathetic person which Most people in the sheltering world are quite empathetic people.
00:34:57.411 --> 00:34:59.972
They're typically there because they are empathetic people.
00:35:00.253 --> 00:35:15.054
But it is so challenging and exhausting and heartbreaking and honestly horrible if we're being blunt because no matter what, of course it is very rewarding and it's something that is so special.
00:35:15.054 --> 00:35:21.500
At least in my opinion, I feel like anytime I've ever been in a shelter, it gives me the sense of belonging in a way.
00:35:21.500 --> 00:35:24.242
It gives me the sense of I can make it.
00:35:24.597 --> 00:35:27.349
Like I have a purpose, like I can do this.
00:35:27.349 --> 00:35:34.041
And it does give you those feelings, but at the end of the day, you can do whatever you want and you can work as hard as you can.
00:35:34.041 --> 00:35:35.530
And you can get the dogs out of the kennel.
00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:37.652
You can get them to stop acting aggressively.
00:35:37.652 --> 00:35:40.652
You can place the dogs in the homes, whatever it might be.
00:35:40.652 --> 00:35:45.213
But more times than not, at the end of the day, there's still more dogs than kennels.
00:35:45.554 --> 00:35:48.815
And you typically still have to make a decision whether you like it or not.
00:35:48.815 --> 00:35:56.186
And I think that that's something that shelter workers tend to get a lot of hate for because hey, we euthanize dogs or hey, you're a dog killer.
00:35:56.186 --> 00:36:13.201
I would get that all the time on my Instagram is like, wow, you work at, cause the shelter I worked at here in South Carolina was honestly, their numbers were pretty incredible for a municipal shelter that had both the city and the county for like their intake.
00:36:13.922 --> 00:36:15.782
But they were still kill shelter.
00:36:15.782 --> 00:36:22.344
They have decently higher euthanasia rates, but not really that high.
00:36:23.788 --> 00:36:26.648
And I would get it all the time that like, I support this.
00:36:26.648 --> 00:36:29.467
And it's like, I don't, this sucks.
00:36:29.467 --> 00:36:31.108
Like, I don't support this.
00:36:31.108 --> 00:36:34.668
I'm here because I'm trying to help it and I'm trying to fix it.
00:36:34.668 --> 00:36:38.097
But a lot of people don't understand that shelter workers don't really have a choice.
00:36:38.097 --> 00:36:42.487
Shelters don't have a choice when it comes to euthanasia.
00:36:42.728 --> 00:36:49.987
It's like, what truly, what do you do at the end of the day when there are 300 dogs and 280 cows?
00:36:49.987 --> 00:36:51.447
Do you take 20 dogs home?
00:36:51.447 --> 00:36:52.992
Well, I already have a foster dog.
00:36:52.992 --> 00:37:00.737
I already have my own dog and hey, all my coworkers also already have foster animals and we're all also burnt out and like really not okay.
00:37:01.217 --> 00:37:07.561
So it's kind of just like this endless horrible circle that you're involved in.
00:37:08.282 --> 00:37:14.025
But I think it's really important that the people that you work with are kind to you.
00:37:14.025 --> 00:37:22.706
I feel like whenever I've struggled the most with my mental health in shelter, it was because the people that I was working with, my coworkers were...
00:37:22.706 --> 00:37:26.639
not nice people or they were not being nice to me or that's always what tipped it over.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:40.469
Like I'd be feeling not so great, maybe I would know that hey I'm getting a little fatigued or I'm getting a little tired and then all of a sudden like drama sparks up and you're like I just I cannot handle this anymore.
00:37:40.469 --> 00:38:02.469
It's like that's like the last thing that any shelter worker needs is either like drama within the shelter or people being mean to each other or the public being mean to you as Both of those things are going to burn out your shelter worker immediately and a lot of times there are cases where like shelter workers don't ever go back into shelters because of those situations because it is so painful.
00:38:04.021 --> 00:38:06.492
Yeah, and I mean, it's unfortunate.
00:38:07.934 --> 00:38:15.922
But like you said, at least me, I feel like I belong here too and that I can really make an impact.
00:38:16.563 --> 00:38:18.903
we're hoping the future is better.
00:38:19.637 --> 00:38:20.277
Hopefully.
00:38:20.277 --> 00:38:26.750
There's, yeah, it's so like, because I always get the question too, is like, how do we resolve the issue?
00:38:26.750 --> 00:38:35.871
Because the issue is just like, there's an obnoxious amount of dogs that are not wanted, if you will, or not in a home.
00:38:35.871 --> 00:38:38.193
And it's just a constant cycle.
00:38:38.653 --> 00:38:42.965
So it's really just getting to the bottom of how can we stop the issue at hand?
00:38:42.965 --> 00:38:46.576
How can we stop this like, overpopulation crisis?
00:38:46.976 --> 00:39:12.137
And it's a lot of times it's not like a lot of people are like, ban breeding But in my opinion breeding is important, especially if it's being done well I think there are of course like obviously there's breeding that's being done poorly and that's why dogs are in shelters, but you don't see well bred Dogs that are typically purebred or have come from a good breeder ending up shelter systems.
00:39:12.137 --> 00:39:21.347
It's typically dogs who were either backyard bred or bred on the streets or it's like pregnant mama from the streets now has puppies in the shelter type of a thing.
00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:29.677
Of course you do get purebred dogs in the shelter but in most cases you're not getting a dog who comes from an ethical breeder to be in a shelter.
00:39:29.677 --> 00:39:31.460
It's typically just not familiar.
00:39:32.266 --> 00:39:33.708
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:34.269 --> 00:39:40.039
And earlier you mentioned that you have your own business.
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.012
Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:39:42.623 --> 00:39:49.346
Yeah, so I own a business here in Columbia, South Carolina, but I do do virtual consulting worldwide.
00:39:49.346 --> 00:39:53.726
So it's kind of just like, I own a business everywhere, it seems.
00:39:54.206 --> 00:39:59.248
But I consult primarily behavioral issues.
00:39:59.248 --> 00:40:04.650
So the large majority of my clients are dealing with either an aggression or a reactivity issue.
00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:11.072
However, I do also do really everything other than severe separation anxiety cases.
00:40:11.072 --> 00:40:12.469
I typically find that.
00:40:12.469 --> 00:40:21.344
people are better off with a specialist for a severe separation anxiety case, which I'm not specialist in that.
00:40:21.344 --> 00:40:30.327
So I'm primarily consulting with that, but I will do, like I saw sometimes get dogs that just like want to learn like a recall or just like how to learn on how to walk on a leash or something like that.
00:40:31.327 --> 00:40:35.521
But really it's my full -time job, of course.
00:40:35.521 --> 00:40:37.041
So I fully own and operate it.
00:40:37.041 --> 00:40:41.315
I have a few apprentices who will hopefully become maybe trainers, so I'll have some extra help.
00:40:41.315 --> 00:40:52.083
But outside of that, I do fully do everything myself, including admin work, client intake, notes, and of course, the actual consulting.
00:40:53.525 --> 00:40:58.175
Yeah, and I think that, mean, you're awesome for doing all of that.
00:40:58.175 --> 00:41:12.500
And I hope that our community, because you offer it virtually, will maybe check out your company because there are a lot of people here looking for training.
00:41:12.740 --> 00:41:17.072
But here in El Paso, like you said, it's not really regulated.
00:41:17.072 --> 00:41:20.543
So I think that's important to go with somebody that has.
00:41:21.311 --> 00:41:23.244
you know, the education to back it up.
00:41:23.244 --> 00:41:32.275
And so I really would hope that the community maybe reaches out to you for any help that they might need.
00:41:32.554 --> 00:41:33.503
Yeah, I would love that.
00:41:33.503 --> 00:41:35.085
You can always refer me out to people.
00:41:35.085 --> 00:41:37.518
I'm also, it's not like lunch yet.
00:41:37.518 --> 00:41:41.572
So I haven't really been talking about it too much because it's not even like soft lunch.
00:41:41.572 --> 00:41:53.340
But I'm in the process of creating this like online, basically like courses, books, guides, things like that, which will be very low cost and easily accessible.
00:41:53.762 --> 00:42:01.907
And it will, of course you can't do behavior modification like on a blanket.
00:42:02.257 --> 00:42:43.065
way right so you can't like just say every dog who's doing with this issue this will resolve that because behavior is a study of one but it will be pretty just like cut and dry like general like your dog is displaying this behavior like what are some things that may potentially ease that because maybe you don't have the resources to work with with me maybe you can't afford it maybe you don't have the time maybe you don't have whatever it might be so it will be something where people can log on and take at least a course to give them some insight about why their dog might be behaving a certain way, or they can even log on and get something like help with teaching a recall or something super basic as well like that.
00:42:43.065 --> 00:42:48.067
So that will be definitely something I'll be launching and there'll be a lot of shelter dog things in there, of course.
00:42:48.067 --> 00:42:53.289
There'll be a ton of like, you just adopted a dog from a shelter, what are we gonna do now?
00:42:53.469 --> 00:42:56.670
But hopefully that will be released maybe about mid fall.
00:42:56.670 --> 00:43:01.331
Hopefully, I keep saying like, September and then I get to September and I'm like, it's not done yet.
00:43:01.612 --> 00:43:05.114
But it's getting there.
00:43:05.635 --> 00:43:14.739
So yeah, so that should be a really nice resource that people can dive into if they feel like they need some help but can't maybe commit to working with somebody.
00:43:15.574 --> 00:43:26.876
Well that's amazing, that's a really great idea to have those resources readily available for people to get more insight on what could be triggering their pets.
00:43:26.876 --> 00:43:29.489
So I think that's amazing, that's awesome.
00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:30.960
I can't wait to see that.
00:43:31.132 --> 00:43:31.704
I'm excited.
00:43:31.704 --> 00:43:35.242
I'll have to send you the link when I finally release it.
00:43:38.132 --> 00:43:38.893
No rush.
00:43:38.893 --> 00:43:47.255
know it's a lot of work to put all that together and it's going to be amazing, I'm sure.
00:43:48.217 --> 00:44:03.663
Well, is there anything else that you would like to mention about your trainings or just in general about the shelter environment, positive reinforcement, force -free?
00:44:04.045 --> 00:44:04.766
not really.
00:44:04.766 --> 00:44:07.188
mean, I think we said mostly everything.
00:44:07.188 --> 00:44:09.471
Really, I commend all shelter workers.
00:44:09.471 --> 00:44:10.460
I know how hard that is.
00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:25.423
So if you are, of course, listening and you're working in a shelter, I hope that shelter workers at least feel like they do matter in some way, even though it's really hard to feel like you matter in a world like that when nothing that you do really fixes it.
00:44:25.784 --> 00:44:33.505
I hope that they at least know that they matter to the individual dogs that they are able because that's really important.
00:44:33.724 --> 00:44:36.025
we cannot save all of the dogs, right?
00:44:36.025 --> 00:44:49.268
Like, I'm being super corny here, but I think it is very, very noble to be able to at least make an impact on one dog, even if your only impact was offering them some sense of security.
00:44:49.268 --> 00:44:59.012
Even if you know that maybe the dog isn't going to make it out of the shelter and maybe this is it for them, maybe you were able to offer them an hour.
00:44:59.583 --> 00:45:07.927
or even a minute of calm peace where they were able to relax with you or eat some cookies or play a game or just get out of their kennel.
00:45:08.007 --> 00:45:13.630
I think that alone is something that a lot of times we forget about as shelter workers because it's not the big picture.
00:45:13.630 --> 00:45:17.974
It's like the smallest one possible, but it is, I think it's really impactful.
00:45:17.974 --> 00:45:23.186
Even if like the dogs of course can't tell you how impactful it is, but I'm sure that they would if they could.
00:45:23.978 --> 00:45:29.021
Yes, yes, that's very important to remember that.
00:45:29.463 --> 00:45:30.123
So thank you.
00:45:30.123 --> 00:45:31.384
Thank you for sharing that.
00:45:31.384 --> 00:45:35.766
That's amazing, especially for any shelter worker, really.
00:45:36.228 --> 00:45:39.469
Like you said, it's so easy to get burnt out in this environment.
00:45:39.469 --> 00:45:49.766
And hearing that from someone that is not a part of our team, I'm sure will give some sense of belonging here in our shelter.
00:45:49.766 --> 00:45:51.918
So thank you.
00:45:51.918 --> 00:45:53.309
Thank you for that.
00:45:53.856 --> 00:46:05.144
Well, if there's nothing else, we really want to thank you for joining us and taking the time out of your schedule to record this episode.
00:46:05.144 --> 00:46:13.322
I think it's going to be really beneficial for our community to hear it from someone other than our local shelter.
00:46:13.322 --> 00:46:20.697
So we thank you so much for joining us, Jenna, and thank you for all of your work.
00:46:21.298 --> 00:46:29.326
you know, like I said in the beginning, a lot of our workers here are your fan for all of amazing work that you're doing.
00:46:29.347 --> 00:46:38.045
And we truly appreciate the changes that you're making in pets lives and, you know, in the community that you're at as well.
00:46:38.411 --> 00:46:38.956
Thank you.
00:46:38.956 --> 00:46:39.670
Thank you so much.
00:46:39.670 --> 00:46:41.117
you so much, honestly.
00:46:42.231 --> 00:46:43.431
Thank you.
00:46:43.592 --> 00:46:48.494
So thank you all for joining us for another episode of EPAS Unleashed.
00:46:48.574 --> 00:46:54.398
You can go ahead and share, like, comment, subscribe, and we'll see you next time.
