The County Connection | Democracy Is Worth It: A Conversation with Lieutenant Governor Denny Heck

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the three times I was shot growing up in Chicago.
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I went, ah, turn the tape back on. Yeah, let's
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start again. Welcome to County Connection, the
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official podcast of the Washington State Association
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of Counties, where we dive into the legislative
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issues shaping the future of our communities.
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From budgets to public safety, infrastructure
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to elections, we'll break down what's happening
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in Olympia and how it impacts counties from across
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the Evergreen State. stay informed stay engaged
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and join us as we amplify the voice of washington's
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39 counties welcome back everybody to the county
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connection podcast this is paul jewell your government
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relations director and host for the number one
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podcast in washington state on county issues
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i think that's mostly because it's the only podcast
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award -winning award thank you thank you for
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that and for those of you who don't recognize
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that deep dark sultry voice that is the Honorable
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Lieutenant Governor Denny Heck who I am very
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proud to welcome to our podcast today. I have
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to say this is the first time I think I've ever
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been nervous. to have someone here in the studio
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with me. I'm glad we have a witness. Well, you
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brought one of your staffers to make sure that
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I stay in line, which I appreciate very much.
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That's my executive protection unit, Paul. Your
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reputation precedes you. Well, I guess I'm glad
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and honored to know that I need you to have some...
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No, actually, I don't think I like that. I don't
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think I like that at all now that I'm thinking
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through that. Lieutenant Governor, thanks for
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joining us. I really appreciate you coming today.
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You're more than welcome. When I think of the
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lieutenant governor's position in the scheme,
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I guess, of state government, I think of it as
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one of the more mysterious positions. And in
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many ways, I feel like that is something our
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county commissioners can relate to. We're always
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explaining to people kind of what we do. So why
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don't we start? there with a quick explanation
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so that everyone is on the same page as to what
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is it that the lieutenant governor does for Washington
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state. Let's start off by talking about what
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it doesn't do. Okay. Myths abound. Myth number
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one, lieutenant governor is deputy governor.
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Okay. Beep. Not true. Not true. Doesn't run on
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the same ticket. Doesn't have to be a member
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of the same political party and has no ongoing
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executive branch responsibilities per se. Right.
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Myth two, lieutenant governor is the 50th state.
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Senator? Beep. That's not right either. There
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are only 49. But I know that that's a myth because
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I get so often asked, will you introduce a bill
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to do this or will you vote no or yes on a certain
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bill? Only people elected to the state legislature
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have that privilege and the lieutenant governor
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is not one of them. So what is it? The question
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is begged. Number one, a really cheap insurance
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policy in case the governor gets hit by a bus,
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God forbid. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Lieutenant
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governor would become governor. Indeed, anytime
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the governor's out of state, the lieutenant governor
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is acting governor, which is frankly not that
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big a deal. Right. Number two, most importantly,
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in my opinion, is the lieutenant governor is
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the president of the Senate, the presiding officer.
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That runs the gambit of responsibilities from
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just calling on the next person to speak to upholding
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the rules, making parliamentary rulings, and
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that which requires as much art as skill, setting
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a tone of respectful discourse so that the issues
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that are debated are done so on the basis of
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the merits. And then number three, other duties
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as assigned, and they are legion. Also affords
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the lieutenant governor the position does. the
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opportunity to pick areas of emphasis that they
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want to hold up, throw a spotlight on, elevate,
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and advocate for. And we certainly do that in
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the area of international relations, in the area
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of housing, and in the area of promoting improved
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civic health. Now, you do vote in the case of
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a tie, right? Yeah. Gosh, six years. One time,
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Paul. I felt the power surge through my veins.
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What was the issue? Do you remember? I do. I
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absolutely do remember because it's kind of fun.
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It was the pet project of a retiring member from
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the opposite chamber that dealt with a certain
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kind of scholarship program in higher ed. Really?
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That was the one that registered a tie? It wasn't
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the bill. It was an amendment. Oh. And the amendment.
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So the minority didn't much like the bill at
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all, so they were throwing up a lot of amendments.
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And the majority was just beating them off one
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at a time, kind of indiscriminately, frankly,
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because they just wanted the bill to pass and
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preserve it. Anybody who's watched TVW has seen
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that happen. But there was this amendment that
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kind of touched me that would have preserved
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the eligibility for somebody who had been given
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it. If, however, subsequently they were called
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up for reserve duty or National Guard duty, when
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they returned, you held your place in line. And
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the majority party, which is my political party.
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disagreed and spoke against it. But there were
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a couple, three of them went the other way and
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one or two of the minority that went the other
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way and it ended up a tie. And I basically voted
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with the minority. Oh, wow. Which kind of shocked
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my fellow party members. But I just thought it
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was the right thing to do. Is it a little weird
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being up there presiding on the Senate, given
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your history? I mean, you were a state representative
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for a while. You were a member of Congress for
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a while. I mean, you were part of trying to induce
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PTSD. No, I'm just thinking about, you know,
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I've watched other people transition from positions
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where they were making decisions to kind of being
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the person who facilitates the decision making
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process. And some people struggle with that.
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Did it ever feel did you ever feel like you wanted
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to vote or even catch yourself maybe and have
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to stop yourself from a I'm not the person who's
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voting anymore. So. It is hard to exaggerate,
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frankly, how much responsibility there is to
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make decisions at the volume and pace that you
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do when you're in a position like that. It is
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a weighty responsibility, especially for the
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– well, no, the members who are voting. The members,
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yes. They've got to read the bills or at least
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the bill reports, analysis, or at least – listen
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to their colleagues whom they respect in certain
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issue areas. And that takes an enormous amount
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of psychic energy and emotional energy. And I
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don't have to do that. Now, I have to expend
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energy in other areas, like paying attention.
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Well, and knowing all the rules. And knowing
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the rules. Of course, I have a couple of extremely...
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capable attorneys, one of whom sits on each side
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of me during that to help. But, you know, so
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I guess my point to you, Paul, is if I were to
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pick and choose like, oh, I really want to weigh
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in on this, you know, it's just better to stay
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in my lane and do my job that I was elected to
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do and help them and help to facilitate. the
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best possible process to enable the majority
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viewpoint, not political party, but majority
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viewpoint to manifest. Well, that's interesting.
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Another thing you said that I want to dive in
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a little bit deeper, you brought out that one
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of your jobs is to set a tone of respectful discourse.
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And I know that's something that you strongly
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believe in. I've seen you do that work. in some
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pretty difficult situations where the Senate
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is getting pretty emotional sometimes around
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an issue or, you know, debating something very
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controversial. But then you've even gone further
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than that and you have a project that actually
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highlights and promotes civil. Civic health.
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Yeah, I was going to say civil engagement, but
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civic health on a broader level in Washington
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state. Can you just kind of talk about why that's
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so important to you and what that project actually
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does? I'm reminded when you talk about that's
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my job on the floor of – I think it's really
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important for people to understand, those who
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don't watch TVW all the time, that the fact is
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that the Senate floor deliberations are, I think
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– undertaken with an enormous amount of respectful
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discourse almost all the time. Yeah, I agree.
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Not true everywhere, but it's certainly true.
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Not true all the time in the Senate, but true
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almost all of the time. I am reminded, however,
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of the one time when it was getting out of hand
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and I was getting frustrated and I was unilateral
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in a way that I am not usually and not terribly
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comfortable with, but it was that bad. I simply
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had to bang the gavel. and call them at ease,
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put them at ease. Usually you wait for a motion
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to put them at ease, but it was going down a
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dark road, and I just said, we're going to go
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at ease, and the president hopes that some of
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you will talk with one another so we can get
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this back on track. I think I remember that day,
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actually. It worked, but they knew it. I mean,
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they wanted to get there. That's the thing. When
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it spins out of control, they don't. Was that
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during COVID? It was shortly thereafter, I think.
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Okay. It was quite some time ago. Yeah. So, but
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what you referred to is the Project for Civic
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Health, which is a joint enterprise of the Office
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of the Lieutenant Governor, the Evans School
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at the University of Washington, the Ruckelshaus
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Center, which is a joint enterprise of WSU and
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the UW, and the Henry M. Jackson Foundation.
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And the goal of the Project for Civic Health
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is... Basically that, to promote improved civic
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health. We have three guiding principles that
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we think should determine how it is that we engage.
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And they are straightforward and important and
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I think inarguable. Number one, engage respectfully,
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which is kind of mama's ancient wisdom of treating
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other people the way you want to be treated.
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Right. Number two, seek common ground. Kind of
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another way of saying we've got to figure out
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how to compromise ourself. will enable us both
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to get up from the table, not with everything
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we wanted, but with enough to vote yes and shake
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one another's hand. And thirdly, to disagree
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constructively. So that disrespectful discourse
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has no role when we're arguing the merits and
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demerits of policy. Mostly what I believe, though,
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because I see too much of it, unfortunately,
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is that we don't have to hate each other just
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because we disagree. The project conducted a
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poll a few years ago. that revealed, and I don't
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think it's changed, it may have even gotten worse,
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that nearly one in four Washingtonians have stopped
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talking altogether to either a friend or a family
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member, quote, because of politics. And I think
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that's really unfortunate. It used to be that
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when asked, when parents were asked, would it
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be okay with you if your son or daughter grew
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up to marry somebody of the opposite political
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party with which you identify, it was just not
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big of an issue. But now... That reference point
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of which political party, are you blue or are
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you red, has seemed to become everything. And
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it's the lens through which we judge everything.
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And I think it's gotten out of hand. Everybody
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knows we're polarized and that we're ill -served
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by that in the long run. It does feel in many
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ways like people don't even want to engage in
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conversation unless they know what persuasion
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you might be coming from, what your opinion is.
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I can remember even 10 years ago when I myself
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was running for office doorbelling in a neighborhood
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and having doors slammed in my face simply because
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they found out I was a member of a certain party.
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And that was the end of the conversation. There
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was no room for discussion on the issues that
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were affecting the community or the different
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viewpoints or what potential solutions would
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be. It was just, oh, you are X. Therefore, I'm
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no longer speaking to you. Can I give you a compliment?
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Well, why not? Absolutely. Paul, I've known you
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for several years. Not well, but I've known you
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for several years. I have no idea what political
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party you identified with. Well, I appreciate
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that. I think that's a compliment. Thank you
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very much. I work very hard to make sure that
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I represent the issues for our members in an
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advocacy way, the way that they want me to. And
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that's a nonpartisan. undertaking. And, you know,
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here at WASAC, we have to work with both sides
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of the aisle, and we try to do so as productively
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as possible. And your members are both sides.
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Absolutely, they are. Yeah, no, I appreciate
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that. Maybe off camera sometime or off mic sometime.
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My party affiliation and how that worked out
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for me back in the day. But that is a very nice
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compliment. Thank you. I just wonder how we got
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there. And I know it's not – I'm sure it's not
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the worst it ever was. I mean there's all kinds
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of really interesting things. Yeah, like 1850s.
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Right. I mean there are crazy things that you
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can go back at and look and go, wow, that was
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really racy back in the day or that was pretty
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controversial. But we do live in an era of immediate.
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immediate communication, right? You don't have
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to put a note on the back of a horse and write
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it across the country or even on a train or even
00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.559
tap it out on a telegraph. You put it on your
00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:02.860
phone and it's available for anyone to see within
00:14:02.860 --> 00:14:05.179
moments. And that happens from time to time.
00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:07.779
And anybody can say anything and there are no
00:14:07.779 --> 00:14:11.559
rules. And they do. And they often do. But why
00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:14.700
are we so susceptible to that now as a society?
00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:18.460
Is it just we're willing? I think. I think social
00:14:18.460 --> 00:14:22.059
media platforms are a significant culprit here
00:14:22.059 --> 00:14:25.340
in the decline of respectful discourse in our
00:14:25.340 --> 00:14:28.460
political culture. And I think it stems directly
00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:31.899
from the nature of their business model. Their
00:14:31.899 --> 00:14:34.299
business model is predicated on attracting as
00:14:34.299 --> 00:14:37.419
many eyeballs as possible and holding them for
00:14:37.419 --> 00:14:40.539
as long as possible. Why? Because they're basically
00:14:40.539 --> 00:14:43.759
a combination of big advertising houses and or
00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:45.960
the sellers of information about you that they
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:50.059
have gathered. And so the more eyeballs at their
00:14:50.059 --> 00:14:53.600
site, the longer they are on their site, the
00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.159
more money they make. So then the question becomes,
00:14:56.419 --> 00:14:59.240
well, gosh, how do they do that? And they do
00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:02.759
it by jumping up and down on your fear and anger
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:07.200
buttons. And they do that because fear and anger
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.580
releases dopamine in the brain. This is neuroscience
00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:14.240
101, which is addictive. We tend to do things
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.629
that relieve. release dopamine in the brain.
00:15:16.990 --> 00:15:20.590
I'm sure I do. And only if you're human. Yeah,
00:15:20.629 --> 00:15:24.549
not consciously. Paul? That has been questioned
00:15:24.549 --> 00:15:28.590
at times. So, you know, they're hugely incentivized
00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:31.490
to do it, and they make it obviously even worse
00:15:31.490 --> 00:15:33.990
by constructing algorithms that take you further
00:15:33.990 --> 00:15:36.990
and further down that rabbit hole. But, look,
00:15:37.110 --> 00:15:40.750
there are a lot of reasons for this. We have
00:15:40.750 --> 00:15:45.759
fewer norms and mores that guide behavior. We
00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.379
have fewer—we have less regard for institutions.
00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:51.840
And it just shows what a traditionalist I am.
00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.039
Institutions are the things that help sustain
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.019
us in times of social stress as a country, as
00:15:59.019 --> 00:16:01.500
a community. These are the things that help keep
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.700
us together. And when you destroy institutions
00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.960
or degrade institutions, then you put us all
00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:12.009
at risk. When you destroy norms and mores— You
00:16:12.009 --> 00:16:14.029
live in a world with no boundaries. And what
00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:17.470
that has caused to occur in political culture
00:16:17.470 --> 00:16:20.750
is there's way too much all or nothing approach.
00:16:21.049 --> 00:16:24.350
And there's way too much the ends justifies the
00:16:24.350 --> 00:16:28.409
means. Not only am I right, not only are you
00:16:28.409 --> 00:16:31.370
wrong, you're evil. And anything I can do to
00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:35.289
stop evil, anything is acceptable in that kind
00:16:35.289 --> 00:16:38.230
of a construct. And the other part that I find
00:16:38.230 --> 00:16:41.639
seems to be increasing is The only way I really
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.059
win is if you lose. Right. Win, lose. You know,
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.679
we can't both win. That's not acceptable. Right.
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:51.879
Right. I can only win, truly win, by destroying
00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.000
you or keeping you down. And you've tried, Paul.
00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:58.840
I won't let you. I thought maybe you hadn't noticed.
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.679
There was something else that I wanted to touch
00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.680
on that I think is really important. I mean,
00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:07.539
in many ways, what you're saying is the answer
00:17:07.539 --> 00:17:09.769
is putting your phones down. Right. Your social
00:17:09.769 --> 00:17:12.029
media. It would help. It would definitely help.
00:17:12.069 --> 00:17:14.769
But it's not the final answer. Right. I mean,
00:17:14.769 --> 00:17:16.630
what I was. What do you do with your time when
00:17:16.630 --> 00:17:18.210
you put your phone down? Well, you have to build
00:17:18.210 --> 00:17:21.029
relationships. Exactly. Right. I mean, the key
00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:23.769
to it all is relationships. And we espouse that
00:17:23.769 --> 00:17:25.630
and we espouse it. And it was espoused to me
00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:29.289
when I was a kid. In almost anything that you
00:17:29.289 --> 00:17:31.230
do, it's all about relationships. You mean when
00:17:31.230 --> 00:17:36.450
you grew up in Tenino? Now, we agreed not to
00:17:36.450 --> 00:17:39.250
bring that up, Lieutenant. I don't remember that
00:17:39.250 --> 00:17:41.450
agreement at all. Yes, I grew up right down the
00:17:41.450 --> 00:17:42.849
road. I'm proud of you for having grown up in
00:17:42.849 --> 00:17:45.029
Tenino. I grew up in Lakeshore. Oh, you did?
00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:48.009
Just northwest of Hazeldale. That was much more
00:17:48.009 --> 00:17:52.950
metropolitan than Tenino. Oh, not at all. I had
00:17:52.950 --> 00:17:55.309
a very large strawberry field in my backyard,
00:17:55.410 --> 00:17:57.009
and at the end of the street was another large
00:17:57.009 --> 00:17:58.069
strawberry field. Well, you never went hungry
00:17:58.069 --> 00:17:59.630
then, did you? No. At least not during strawberry
00:17:59.630 --> 00:18:04.339
season. Oh, boy. The bane of my existence were
00:18:04.339 --> 00:18:10.019
blueberry bushes, so I can relate. You have a
00:18:10.019 --> 00:18:12.819
quote. Well, first of all, you have a great website
00:18:12.819 --> 00:18:15.000
on civic health, and I encourage anybody to go
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.099
out and take a look at it. Projectforcivichealth
00:18:18.099 --> 00:18:22.960
.org. Lots of reading to do. Project for, the
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:27.799
word for, F -O -R, projectforcivichealth .org.
00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:30.980
Okay, .org, perfect. But you have a quote on
00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:34.200
there, and your quote is, democracy is worth
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:39.059
it. Tell me why that's significant. What do you
00:18:39.059 --> 00:18:42.400
mean by democracy is worth it? Why is that on
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:48.059
the Project Civic Health website? So one of the
00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:54.029
things that has been a source of... The enormous
00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:57.009
gratification to me this year is the – I'm going
00:18:57.009 --> 00:18:59.289
to get to your question. It's going to be a roundabout
00:18:59.289 --> 00:19:04.369
way. We've got time. Is the fact that I had the
00:19:04.369 --> 00:19:07.130
opportunity to serve as the chair of the state's
00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:10.690
semi -quincentennial commission or the 250th
00:19:10.690 --> 00:19:14.829
birthday of our nation. And there's some advantages
00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:18.630
to being an old guy. I remember well and was
00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:21.150
an adult during the bicentennial 50 years ago
00:19:21.150 --> 00:19:23.190
this year. In fact, it's the year I was elected
00:19:23.190 --> 00:19:27.049
to the state house. And frankly, it may have
00:19:27.049 --> 00:19:29.750
been my age at the time, but I don't think so.
00:19:30.130 --> 00:19:35.450
It all just felt like a bunch of fireworks. Could
00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:41.490
have been your age. Flag waving and the like.
00:19:41.769 --> 00:19:45.809
Yeah. The difference is this year it felt as
00:19:45.809 --> 00:19:49.009
though, and it couldn't have happened none too
00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:52.190
sooner. An opportunity for us to really reflect
00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:57.150
on our journey and what the meaning is of being
00:19:57.150 --> 00:20:00.650
an American. I just think this year's reflection
00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:05.930
was just much more substantive than it was 50
00:20:05.930 --> 00:20:08.890
years ago. That was sparklers. This was what
00:20:08.890 --> 00:20:14.789
does it mean to be an American? I saw community
00:20:14.789 --> 00:20:17.150
event after community event throughout the state.
00:20:17.769 --> 00:20:20.150
of people combining their regular July 4th with
00:20:20.150 --> 00:20:24.549
250th birthday events. And they were varied and
00:20:24.549 --> 00:20:27.869
creative and imaginative. And at their heart
00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:30.690
was often, what does it mean to be an American?
00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:35.210
What does the greatest sentence ever written
00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:39.190
mean today versus what it meant them? Namely,
00:20:39.269 --> 00:20:41.710
we hold these truths to be self -evident, that
00:20:41.710 --> 00:20:43.630
all men are created equal, that they are endowed
00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:46.359
by the Creator with certain... unalienable rights,
00:20:46.539 --> 00:20:48.559
that among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:51.339
of happiness? What did it mean that our founders
00:20:51.339 --> 00:20:54.940
mutually pledged their lives, their fortunes,
00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:57.519
and their sacred honor in signing that document?
00:20:58.099 --> 00:21:00.819
What did it mean then? What does it mean now?
00:21:01.019 --> 00:21:02.980
Because surely it doesn't mean now what it did
00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:06.019
then. All men are created equal because in the
00:21:06.019 --> 00:21:08.140
Constitution, if you were black, you were not
00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:12.890
created equal. You were created .6. For census
00:21:12.890 --> 00:21:16.750
purposes and chattel in certain states by all
00:21:16.750 --> 00:21:19.650
other purposes. So it doesn't mean today what
00:21:19.650 --> 00:21:22.190
it meant then. What does that journey meant?
00:21:22.390 --> 00:21:27.490
What does it mean to be an American? And it really
00:21:27.490 --> 00:21:31.930
goes to your question, really, which I can't
00:21:31.930 --> 00:21:36.099
remember at all. But I really wanted to talk
00:21:36.099 --> 00:21:39.000
about the semi -quincentennial. And I am surprised.
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.680
What was your question? I'll close the circle.
00:21:41.779 --> 00:21:43.099
I was in there going, okay, where is he going
00:21:43.099 --> 00:21:44.400
with this? You don't remember your question either,
00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:47.779
do you, Joel? I do. The question is, democracy
00:21:47.779 --> 00:21:51.599
is worth it. That's your quote on that page.
00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:54.539
When you stop and think about the values of who
00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:58.019
we are, that's when it comes into sharper focus
00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:01.440
and sharper relief. That this is all worth it.
00:22:01.539 --> 00:22:03.880
Okay. That these things are all worth it. That's
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.880
what I thought you meant. And, you know, when
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:12.140
I was in Congress, PTSD alert, PTSD alert. When
00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:15.480
I was in Congress, I would get called often by
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.059
friends or family members who were coming to
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:20.200
D .C., had limited time, say, what should I see?
00:22:21.019 --> 00:22:22.720
I don't have a, you know, I'm only going to be
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.410
there a weekend. What should I see? I know what
00:22:26.410 --> 00:22:28.230
most of them thought. They wanted me to tell
00:22:28.230 --> 00:22:31.410
them which of the, what, 13, 14 Smithsonian's
00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:34.349
to go to. Right. U .S. Capitol, Supreme Court,
00:22:34.490 --> 00:22:36.789
Jefferson Building of the Library of Congress,
00:22:37.309 --> 00:22:41.869
the monuments, Mount Vernon, Monticello, Montpelier.
00:22:43.289 --> 00:22:46.529
Which? And it was none of those. Do you know
00:22:46.529 --> 00:22:50.900
what it was? What's the most important thing
00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:52.720
to see if you go to Washington, D .C.? Well,
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.680
in my opinion, it's— Think about the question
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.339
that you asked me. Is it worth it? And I know
00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:01.099
exactly what you're going to say. I'm going to
00:23:01.099 --> 00:23:02.259
say the Arlington National Cemetery. I was going
00:23:02.259 --> 00:23:04.420
to say Arlington National Cemetery. I couldn't
00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:06.380
come up with the word Arlington all of a sudden.
00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:07.859
I know. But that was what I was going to say.
00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:10.359
I know, Paul. It's okay. You don't believe me,
00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:12.099
do you? That you couldn't come up with it? I
00:23:12.099 --> 00:23:15.119
absolutely believe you. But that's exactly what
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:16.859
I was going to say was Arlington. So there are
00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:20.970
400 ,000 people. At their eternal rest there.
00:23:21.289 --> 00:23:25.190
Tens and tens and tens of thousands of whom gave
00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:27.309
their last full measure of devotion to this country.
00:23:27.369 --> 00:23:30.569
It's extremely moving to go there. It is profoundly
00:23:30.569 --> 00:23:35.490
moving. No, I agree. And I think that what we
00:23:35.490 --> 00:23:39.549
need to be reminded of, and it's a stark reminder
00:23:39.549 --> 00:23:44.009
to stroll through Arlington Cemetery and see
00:23:44.009 --> 00:23:48.640
not only all the people that are. residing there,
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:53.339
as it were, but all the different times at which
00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:57.240
they were laid to rest there. We've got to re
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.819
-earn democracy every generation. We can't just
00:24:00.819 --> 00:24:03.240
take it for granted. We don't get to wake up
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.720
and say, thanks, Mom and Dad. We have to do this
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.579
every time. And it is worth it. And all of us
00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:15.160
are caretakers, right? And all of us need to
00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.730
do the work in order to Continue to perpetuate
00:24:18.730 --> 00:24:22.269
it. That's what that quote meant to me was democracy
00:24:22.269 --> 00:24:26.269
is worth it. But what I heard was the work is
00:24:26.269 --> 00:24:29.410
worth it. Well put, Paul. To keep what we have,
00:24:29.569 --> 00:24:31.950
right? I remember the first time I went to Arlington,
00:24:31.970 --> 00:24:34.109
not to digress on that too much, but I went alone.
00:24:35.009 --> 00:24:37.250
I was there. Didn't you go to the changing of
00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:40.470
the guard? I did. It's life changing. It is.
00:24:40.589 --> 00:24:43.190
It's remarkable. It is. And in fact, there were
00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:45.490
some kids there that day making a bit of a ruckus.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.319
Oh, my goodness. I'm surprised they weren't jailed.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.960
They were nearly. Yeah. I mean, they were corrected
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:55.400
harshly. Yes. And loudly. Yes. By the guards
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:57.680
who were there who reminded them that this was
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.299
a place of respect and of solace and that their
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:04.119
behavior was unacceptable. 21 steps across. 21
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:08.779
second hold. 21 steps. I don't know if it was
00:25:08.779 --> 00:25:13.019
the voice or if it was the kids just remembered
00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:16.029
that they. I've never seen teenagers react that
00:25:16.029 --> 00:25:18.849
quickly in that particular instance. And I was
00:25:18.849 --> 00:25:23.990
actually, it was refreshing to see. Do you know
00:25:23.990 --> 00:25:28.269
what brought the unknown soldier to, that's where
00:25:28.269 --> 00:25:30.190
the change of the guard takes place. The tomb
00:25:30.190 --> 00:25:32.250
of the unknown soldier. Do you know what brought
00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:35.730
the soldier back to America? So I read the history
00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:38.539
and I don't remember. But I did read it at one
00:25:38.539 --> 00:25:40.059
point. Sitting where you're sitting, I'm embarrassed
00:25:40.059 --> 00:25:42.000
for you that you do not remember, Paul Jewell,
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:47.160
that it was the USS Olympia. Oh, it was. Name
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.859
for the town you were sitting in. I actually
00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:51.619
did not know that. I don't think that was in
00:25:51.619 --> 00:25:54.240
the history that was there. That's a fact. That's
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.880
an interesting fact. Wow, that's great. Well,
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.220
I would recommend anybody who gets a chance to
00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.539
go to D .C., your advice is if you're going to
00:26:02.539 --> 00:26:04.900
go to one place, that's the place to go. And
00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.680
give thanks. Absolutely. The other place would
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:09.819
be, in my opinion, the U .S. archives and kind
00:26:09.819 --> 00:26:11.740
of see the documents. You know, that's pretty.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.799
Yes. And I often find that's the most popular
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.039
place because of some of the same reasons. Right.
00:26:17.059 --> 00:26:20.420
And I think the flag is the flag that inspired
00:26:20.420 --> 00:26:22.839
Francis Scott Key is still there, isn't it? Yeah.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.599
So that would be my second choice. So is a part
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:28.920
of me chairing the Semi -Quincentennial Commission?
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:32.019
Say that three times. Semi -Quincentennial Commission.
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:33.819
Semi -Quincentennial Commission. I didn't mean
00:26:33.819 --> 00:26:36.630
it literally, Paul. Really? I just wanted you
00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:40.890
to hear my skills. So as a part of my chairing
00:26:40.890 --> 00:26:46.230
the Semi -Quincentennial Commission, I got to
00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:49.269
meet the Freedom Plane at the tarmac at Boeing
00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:52.630
Field that brought nine of our founding documents
00:26:52.630 --> 00:26:56.869
that were on display for two -plus weeks at the
00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:00.269
Museum of History and Industry in Seattle. And
00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:02.750
they just brought him off the plane and there
00:27:02.750 --> 00:27:04.849
was a ceremony. But then two days later, we went
00:27:04.849 --> 00:27:07.990
up to the unveiling of the actual exhibits and
00:27:07.990 --> 00:27:10.470
it literally brought tears to my eyes. Oh, I
00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:12.470
can only imagine. You know, you've had a remarkable
00:27:12.470 --> 00:27:15.009
career. When I said that I'm joined today by
00:27:15.009 --> 00:27:18.829
a legend, I wasn't joking. I think that as far
00:27:18.829 --> 00:27:21.619
as political legends go. You know, we've had
00:27:21.619 --> 00:27:23.680
some great ones in Washington state. Right. I
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.519
mean, we've had some amazing public servants.
00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.400
You know, Dan Evans, you know, is right at the
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:30.240
top of the list as far as contemporaries. But
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.460
I think that Lieutenant Governor Denny Heck is
00:27:33.460 --> 00:27:36.279
also. near the top. You've served in Congress.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.140
You've been a member of the Washington State
00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:40.579
House. You've been the House Majority Leader.
00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:43.720
You were Chief of Staff for Governor Booth Gardner.
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.319
You have other things, I'm sure, in your political
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:50.720
history that I am forgetting. I know you were
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.660
a staff member on the Hill at one point here
00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:57.099
in Olympia, maybe more than one point, not including
00:27:57.099 --> 00:27:59.799
Chief of Staff to Governor Gardner. But you also
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.079
were one of the founding members of TVW. which
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.519
had to be a remark, well, had to be, is a remarkable
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.880
achievement. You know what our motto was? I don't.
00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:18.079
Dare to be dull. That's a great motto. Oh, for
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:20.539
goodness sakes. Okay, you threw me off because
00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:25.009
that's funny. Let's talk about that project because
00:28:25.009 --> 00:28:29.069
that was in the 90s, right? Founded in 93 when
00:28:29.069 --> 00:28:32.710
operational April 10th, 1995. Took us two years
00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:34.049
to get legislative. Started with you and one
00:28:34.049 --> 00:28:37.829
other guy. Stan Marshburn, the co -founder. So
00:28:37.829 --> 00:28:40.329
that had to be an awfully intimidating endeavor
00:28:40.329 --> 00:28:43.730
to undertake and controversial. Yeah, it was
00:28:43.730 --> 00:28:48.509
very controversial among legislators, many of
00:28:48.509 --> 00:28:51.640
whom didn't want cameras because... They didn't
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.660
want to be held accountable for every word they
00:28:54.660 --> 00:28:57.759
said, and many of whom did want cameras because
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:59.140
they thought some of their colleagues would never
00:28:59.140 --> 00:29:02.420
shut up if they had cameras on them. But at the
00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:04.740
end of the day, the legislature's commitment
00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:09.900
to transparency is what prevailed, meaning it's
00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:12.160
a fairly simple proposition, putting the people's
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.339
business before the people. How long did it take
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:17.359
from kind of concept to actually getting the
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.490
first hearings? you know, chamber proceedings
00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:28.410
on camera. So Stan came into my office in October
00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:32.930
of 1992 at the very last quarter of Governor
00:29:32.930 --> 00:29:35.849
Gardner's term when I was chief and Stan was
00:29:35.849 --> 00:29:40.170
director of policy for us and said, he thought
00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:42.789
I ought to do this. I said, oh, I think we ought
00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:45.630
to do this, which thank goodness he was willing
00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:49.099
to do. We didn't get started in earnest until
00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:52.079
January of 93 when we rotated out of office.
00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:57.500
And we turned on two years and three months later,
00:29:57.579 --> 00:30:02.819
four months later in April of 1995. But the legislature
00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:05.319
wasn't going to allow us to televise at that
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:07.640
time, even though we had the equipment installed
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:09.660
because we did not have an agreement in place.
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:14.250
Okay. There was a September special session to
00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:17.589
authorize the building of Safeco, as I recall.
00:30:17.589 --> 00:30:21.089
I remember that. Yeah. And during that session,
00:30:21.269 --> 00:30:25.049
the Senate was pretty resistant. The House was
00:30:25.049 --> 00:30:27.369
very open. Speaker Clyde Ballard, a member of
00:30:27.369 --> 00:30:30.150
the opposite political party, really was in favor
00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:33.750
of this. And they allowed us in. And then by
00:30:33.750 --> 00:30:36.190
the time January came around, everybody, the
00:30:36.190 --> 00:30:39.059
Senate. came along as well. It's interesting
00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:41.099
that the Senate first proposed, I don't know,
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.900
I can't remember how many pages it was, many
00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:46.420
pages, single space, over 100 points of control
00:30:46.420 --> 00:30:48.920
on their part. Sounds like the Senate. They wanted
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.900
to be able to unplug the cameras if they just
00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:56.839
wanted to, unilaterally, on a whim. And we were
00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.660
journalists. We wanted this to be straight. And,
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.240
you know, that eventually resolved itself. But
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.240
what was interesting is We didn't even initially
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:10.299
contemplate televising the Supreme Court, mostly
00:31:10.299 --> 00:31:13.140
because the U .S. Supreme Court, it had the over
00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:16.240
my dead body, well, cameras be allowed in. So
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.420
we just assumed that they'd be the same. They
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:20.700
don't even allow photography, right? They still
00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:22.480
don't. In the U .S. Supreme Court. They allow
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:24.980
audio, but not photography. But in any event,
00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:29.859
we put out this report that was the basis for
00:31:29.859 --> 00:31:32.819
how we would operationalize and became the Bible
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:37.750
for. dozens of states that followed us. And my
00:31:37.750 --> 00:31:40.109
phone rang one day, and I answered, and the guy
00:31:40.109 --> 00:31:42.690
said, this is Bob Henderson over at the Supreme
00:31:42.690 --> 00:31:45.269
Court. Why'd you leave us out? Oh, really? I
00:31:45.269 --> 00:31:50.109
go, what? That had to be a surprise. Stunning.
00:31:50.250 --> 00:31:56.700
Yeah. Cardiac. Follow the chair. And so. You
00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.759
know how to have excitement. They wanted. Their
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.319
belief was people don't know enough about their
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.200
Supreme Court. They need to see what this looks
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:08.400
like. And so they were fine on it. So here you
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.539
have the highest court in the land, nine justices,
00:32:11.539 --> 00:32:17.539
the very pinnacle of our legal system. And the
00:32:17.539 --> 00:32:20.509
legal. arrangement we had with them in order
00:32:20.509 --> 00:32:24.569
to do this absolutely absolutely unprecedented
00:32:24.569 --> 00:32:27.910
thing we were the first we were the first operation
00:32:27.910 --> 00:32:31.069
in the world to regularly telephize an appellate
00:32:31.069 --> 00:32:33.450
court deliberation at any level that's great
00:32:33.450 --> 00:32:36.470
in the legal arrangement that we had with them
00:32:36.470 --> 00:32:40.430
was a handshake between me and the chief oh wow
00:32:40.430 --> 00:32:43.069
we don't need all that stuff that's quite a difference
00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:45.410
from the senate then wasn't it but yeah right
00:32:45.410 --> 00:32:48.170
here nine justices the Pinnacle of the legal
00:32:48.170 --> 00:32:50.250
system. All lawyers said, yeah, no, no, we're
00:32:50.250 --> 00:32:52.430
good. We can figure this out. Never had a problem.
00:32:52.609 --> 00:32:56.329
That's amazing. Was the vision always every hearing,
00:32:56.549 --> 00:33:00.589
every moment of floor action, et cetera, or did
00:33:00.589 --> 00:33:03.529
it start smaller and kind of grow? It was always
00:33:03.529 --> 00:33:07.009
as much as was possible. Okay. And now they do
00:33:07.009 --> 00:33:10.849
everything. Yeah. At one point, we had this brilliant,
00:33:11.049 --> 00:33:14.069
brilliant chief engineer named Phil Mudgett who
00:33:14.069 --> 00:33:17.960
had a radical idea. It's hard to imagine nearly
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:22.119
35 years ago, but it was robotic cameras everywhere.
00:33:23.180 --> 00:33:25.039
Heretofore, they'd put them up on tripods and
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.079
they weighed 9 ,000 pounds each or so. And everyone
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:29.920
had to have an operator. Yes. Yeah. But he had
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.079
this idea that we could do this all robotically.
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:35.000
And when we installed robotic cameras in the
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.720
chambers of the House and the Senate and all
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.119
the hearing rooms, it became the largest live
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:42.599
television robotic camera operation in the world.
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:43.900
I was going to say it had to be cutting edge
00:33:43.900 --> 00:33:46.990
at the time. We also did this thing. Because
00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:50.630
we had a board member who's a good friend and
00:33:50.630 --> 00:33:53.809
a real visionary named Rob Glazer who founded
00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:58.650
Real Networks. They were the first company to
00:33:58.650 --> 00:34:01.549
develop streaming software. I remember them.
00:34:01.930 --> 00:34:03.890
Yes. Are they still around? They absolutely are.
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:07.109
They've become a gaming company. Okay. And they'd
00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:09.369
gone public and Rob took them back private. Thanks
00:34:09.369 --> 00:34:11.650
to make those little players that you download
00:34:11.650 --> 00:34:13.670
on your desktop. Real players. Yeah, I remember
00:34:13.670 --> 00:34:15.590
that. Boy, that's a long time ago. First company
00:34:15.590 --> 00:34:19.269
in the world to do streaming software. And so
00:34:19.269 --> 00:34:23.150
they donated all their software to us. Oh, wow.
00:34:23.329 --> 00:34:27.309
So then we were the first entity in the world
00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:32.139
to have a live internet -based. broadcast of
00:34:32.139 --> 00:34:34.760
an elected official. Nobody had ever done it
00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:38.280
on the planet until we did it. And we had the
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:43.510
largest web -based archive of official proceedings
00:34:43.510 --> 00:34:45.809
in the world. I'm sure that's been exceeded elsewhere,
00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:49.409
but we have zillions of hours over at tvw .org.
00:34:49.489 --> 00:34:51.610
And it's such a great tool for anybody who wants
00:34:51.610 --> 00:34:53.730
to know kind of how things happened or what happened
00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:56.230
in the last week or two years ago or whatever.
00:34:56.670 --> 00:34:59.690
Or 10 years ago. Or 30 years ago. Yeah, I mean,
00:34:59.690 --> 00:35:03.610
it's amazing. And we kept doing this, Paul. We
00:35:03.610 --> 00:35:08.710
kept hiring the least likely people to head it
00:35:08.710 --> 00:35:12.780
up. I think our first... Director of IT that
00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:15.900
began getting us into this was like a 19 -year
00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:17.619
-old kid out of North Dakota who was a little
00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:19.860
genius. He didn't really want to go to college,
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:23.179
but he was brilliant. And I don't know where
00:35:23.179 --> 00:35:26.039
he went on to work. He went on to, I hope, make
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:29.039
good money for himself and his family. But then
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:33.179
I hired this kid. I shouldn't do this because
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:37.260
he's still there. He's there like 20. He was
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:43.989
a brilliant. a musician in IT, all largely self
00:35:43.989 --> 00:35:47.909
-taught, but mostly a, what do you call it, the
00:35:47.909 --> 00:35:52.389
skateboarder. He was mostly a skateboarder. Oh,
00:35:52.409 --> 00:35:54.010
a skater. Yeah. I think that's what they just
00:35:54.010 --> 00:35:58.010
call him, just skater. Skater. Yeah. And he's
00:35:58.010 --> 00:36:00.710
still there, and what he has built is absolutely
00:36:00.710 --> 00:36:04.809
unbelievable. Well. In those days, if you wanted
00:36:04.809 --> 00:36:08.659
to be the bleeding edge. for these kind of internet
00:36:08.659 --> 00:36:12.619
-based things, you went non -conventional. Well,
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.320
yeah. I mean, when you have a great vision and
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:18.280
a bunch of tools at your disposal that nobody's
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.019
really done before, and then you can attract
00:36:20.019 --> 00:36:22.599
things like real networks and other talent and
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.119
other technology. We got so lucky. Yeah, you
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:26.900
guys really had the right things come together
00:36:26.900 --> 00:36:30.519
at the right time. Very lucky. Well, it's a legacy.
00:36:31.230 --> 00:36:34.570
For sure. And it's a really critical tool for
00:36:34.570 --> 00:36:38.230
Washingtonians to be civically engaged with their
00:36:38.230 --> 00:36:41.329
government in a way that I don't think we we
00:36:41.329 --> 00:36:44.730
could have envisioned even in the 1970s and 1980s.
00:36:44.869 --> 00:36:47.289
It's a good thing and we're proud of it. Thank
00:36:47.289 --> 00:36:49.909
you. Yeah. Well, you should be. And we're all
00:36:49.909 --> 00:36:52.130
in your debt for for having the vision and doing
00:36:52.130 --> 00:36:54.929
the hard work to get it started. Thank you. I
00:36:54.929 --> 00:36:58.030
want to pivot again really quickly if we still
00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:02.510
have a few minutes. We're checking with the team
00:37:02.510 --> 00:37:05.429
here to see if we have a few minutes. Housing
00:37:05.429 --> 00:37:09.170
has been another big issue for you. I know that
00:37:09.170 --> 00:37:11.210
part of the governor's job that we didn't really
00:37:11.210 --> 00:37:13.510
talk to – I'm sorry, lieutenant governor's job
00:37:13.510 --> 00:37:14.969
that we didn't really talk about is promoting
00:37:14.969 --> 00:37:17.010
international trade, global partnerships, and
00:37:17.010 --> 00:37:19.469
that sort of thing. And I know you do some of
00:37:19.469 --> 00:37:21.590
that work. Housing is not part of that though,
00:37:21.730 --> 00:37:25.269
right? Housing is not global, right? It's not
00:37:25.269 --> 00:37:28.929
trade. Why are you focused on housing? Why is
00:37:28.929 --> 00:37:31.559
it – I mean – Well, let me turn that around and
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:33.219
ask you this, Paul. Do you think we have a housing
00:37:33.219 --> 00:37:35.840
shortage? Yes. Do you think it has caused the
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:39.360
price of housing to go up? Without a doubt. I
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.199
mean, that's just basic economics. So let me
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:44.340
give you another factoid. This is national data.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:47.460
Not very many years ago, the average age of a
00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:49.840
first -time homebuyer was 28. Do you know what
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:55.059
it was last year? Is it 37? 40. Oh. I bought
00:37:55.059 --> 00:37:58.280
my first home at 21 with no help from my parents.
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.900
Which was possible then. I think I was 22. Yeah.
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:07.780
22 or 23. It's not possible today. No. I agree.
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:11.900
And the fact is that the single largest asset
00:38:11.900 --> 00:38:15.079
of the average American has been the equity in
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:18.539
their home. The longer we delay someone getting
00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:20.760
into homeownership, and overwhelmingly people
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:22.739
still want homeownership, whether it's detached,
00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:27.880
single, or a condo, they want to own. It's slipping
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.760
away. And it's being deferred, which means you'll
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:33.579
have less money at the end. So you use your platform
00:38:33.579 --> 00:38:37.579
as lieutenant governor, and obviously you think
00:38:37.579 --> 00:38:40.860
you have the ability to help. I'm making that
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:43.280
assumption. And you've done quite a few reports.
00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:46.320
There's four major reports on your website. Yeah,
00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:48.559
that doesn't count the one I did when I was in
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:51.730
Congress. Okay, which I haven't seen. Which is
00:38:51.730 --> 00:38:53.630
the origin of all this. I was on the House Financial
00:38:53.630 --> 00:38:55.869
Services Committee when I was in Congress, and
00:38:55.869 --> 00:38:59.010
that's the committee of jurisdiction for housing.
00:38:59.110 --> 00:39:00.750
In fact, it used to be called the Banking and
00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:05.650
Housing Committee. And the housing part kind
00:39:05.650 --> 00:39:07.809
of atrophied over years. I was very disappointed
00:39:07.809 --> 00:39:10.949
in that. But I got to Congress in 2013, not too
00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:13.130
long after the Great Recession, and that's really
00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:14.809
when the bottom fell out of housing production.
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:18.260
That's when we stopped building. The Great Recession
00:39:18.260 --> 00:39:20.460
wiped out about half the people who built homes.
00:39:20.780 --> 00:39:24.199
And so we began not building enough to keep up
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:27.079
with population growth or replacement. In fact,
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:29.380
we have a huge housing deficit in the country,
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:30.960
especially in Washington State, which is one
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.619
of the worst states in the country. And the consequence
00:39:33.619 --> 00:39:35.980
is you can't afford it. The consequence is the
00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:37.760
average price of a home in King County is over
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:41.920
$900 ,000. So we're not building enough housing
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:44.489
even today. We know. We have a housing problem.
00:39:44.650 --> 00:39:46.670
We know there's a housing shortage. You have
00:39:46.670 --> 00:39:48.550
reports, and you're not the only one. Department
00:39:48.550 --> 00:39:50.670
of Commerce has put out a ton of reports. The
00:39:50.670 --> 00:39:53.130
legislature has been working on this for years
00:39:53.130 --> 00:39:55.630
and years and years and years and years. We're
00:39:55.630 --> 00:39:59.289
investing so much money in housing of all different
00:39:59.289 --> 00:40:02.849
types and kinds and dealing with homelessness
00:40:02.849 --> 00:40:06.110
services, et cetera, from a statewide level to
00:40:06.110 --> 00:40:07.969
a community level. And the problem's getting
00:40:07.969 --> 00:40:11.579
worse. Why? Because we're not taking bold enough
00:40:11.579 --> 00:40:17.440
action. What do we need to do? Well, I think
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.480
that would start with understanding that we have
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.760
a serious housing deficit, and there's really
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:28.920
only one way out of it, and that is to build
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:32.489
a lot more homes. Okay. Agreed. And unfortunately,
00:40:32.630 --> 00:40:35.730
where we are in the state now is since the adoption
00:40:35.730 --> 00:40:38.989
of the Growth Management Act, which I was chief
00:40:38.989 --> 00:40:40.690
of staff to Governor Gardner when it occurred,
00:40:40.969 --> 00:40:45.289
is you have the urban growth boundaries. You
00:40:45.289 --> 00:40:48.190
can't build outside of them in a lot of the areas
00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:52.269
where your members hold office because of the
00:40:52.269 --> 00:40:54.650
constraints of the Growth Management Act. And
00:40:54.650 --> 00:40:59.010
you can't build inside the urban growth areas.
00:40:59.630 --> 00:41:04.030
because of, frankly, NIMBY pushback. You either
00:41:04.030 --> 00:41:08.050
have to build inside and build up to provide
00:41:08.050 --> 00:41:11.449
housing, or you have to adjust the urban growth
00:41:11.449 --> 00:41:14.630
boundary and or allow some more things to occur
00:41:14.630 --> 00:41:17.409
outside the urban growth boundary that won't
00:41:17.409 --> 00:41:22.230
constitute sprawl and the like. But it has to
00:41:22.230 --> 00:41:23.949
begin with a recognition. We don't have enough
00:41:23.949 --> 00:41:27.429
houses. And the truth of the matter is, Unless
00:41:27.429 --> 00:41:30.110
you want your – I used to say unless you want
00:41:30.110 --> 00:41:32.010
your 29 -year -old living in your basement. Well,
00:41:32.110 --> 00:41:34.389
now it's unless you want your 40 -year -old living
00:41:34.389 --> 00:41:36.849
in the basement. We simply have to build more
00:41:36.849 --> 00:41:43.110
houses. Do you think anybody disagrees? I think
00:41:43.110 --> 00:41:47.130
that there are people who oppose increased housing
00:41:47.130 --> 00:41:52.250
production because they somehow think that it
00:41:52.250 --> 00:41:55.550
is a sustainable economic model to stop growth.
00:41:56.909 --> 00:41:59.849
I just don't believe that. I don't believe you're
00:41:59.849 --> 00:42:01.889
going to stop people from wanting to live here.
00:42:02.289 --> 00:42:06.690
I don't believe the upward pressure to have more
00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:10.050
housing will abate just because you construct
00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:16.710
a complex of regulations and rules that inhibit
00:42:16.710 --> 00:42:19.730
it. The pressure will still be there. So the
00:42:19.730 --> 00:42:24.570
cost will keep going up and up and up. adjust
00:42:24.570 --> 00:42:26.909
in various ways, but none of them are long -term
00:42:26.909 --> 00:42:30.670
healthy or good. Well, the only way costs will
00:42:30.670 --> 00:42:34.070
change if you continue to constrain, right? The
00:42:34.070 --> 00:42:37.250
supply is up. That's just the law. Economics
00:42:37.250 --> 00:42:41.230
101. God has not repealed the law of supply and
00:42:41.230 --> 00:42:45.590
demand. And in Washington state, our growth projections
00:42:45.590 --> 00:42:49.489
continue to have a pretty upward trend. And so
00:42:49.489 --> 00:42:54.199
the idea that even by balancing supply with demand
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:56.880
that they would go down is probably unrealistic
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.920
at all, unless there's some sort of major event
00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:02.139
like we've seen in the past that, you know, a
00:43:02.139 --> 00:43:04.539
global financial event that has downward pressure
00:43:04.539 --> 00:43:06.840
on all kinds of different things. But even in
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:09.340
those cases, they're typically temporary where
00:43:09.340 --> 00:43:10.920
property and housing are concerned. We're actually
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:13.000
getting a little relief right now because of
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:17.199
the big tech. Right. But the other problem, of
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:19.400
course, is the insurance rates that are kind
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:21.940
of still propping the costs up. Right. The cost
00:43:21.940 --> 00:43:26.260
to get into the market. So, you know, I think
00:43:26.260 --> 00:43:28.619
our best the best case scenario moving forward
00:43:28.619 --> 00:43:31.360
is trying to achieve some level of balance where
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.179
we have price consistency and then wages can
00:43:34.179 --> 00:43:36.639
catch up. Do you agree? Sure. If I understood
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:39.280
what you just said. Well, I think you did. So
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.440
how are we going to get there? Is it just simply
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:46.099
a process of building more and building more
00:43:46.099 --> 00:43:50.239
faster? Look, there are a lot of input variables
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.559
that affect housing prices, many of which are
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:55.800
beyond the control even of local government,
00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:58.320
many of which are beyond the control of state
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.019
government. I would argue that maybe the biggest
00:44:01.019 --> 00:44:03.929
is interest rates. Interest rates are pretty
00:44:03.929 --> 00:44:05.869
high right now. Last time I checked, we were
00:44:05.869 --> 00:44:09.829
up to 6 .8%, 30 -year fixed. But in any event,
00:44:09.949 --> 00:44:16.150
it's inhibiting. So there's stuff that we can't
00:44:16.150 --> 00:44:19.329
affect. And the question really becomes, what
00:44:19.329 --> 00:44:22.230
can we affect? And that's where we ought to focus
00:44:22.230 --> 00:44:25.090
our attention. And we can in the areas such that
00:44:25.090 --> 00:44:28.630
I just referred to a couple of minutes ago. We
00:44:28.630 --> 00:44:31.670
can make a difference in that regard. The truth
00:44:31.670 --> 00:44:34.809
of the matter is the solution is fairly straightforward
00:44:34.809 --> 00:44:37.809
and elegant, although difficult to execute. And
00:44:37.809 --> 00:44:39.269
that is we've got to build more homes of all
00:44:39.269 --> 00:44:42.849
kinds for all our neighbors. And we have an especially
00:44:42.849 --> 00:44:46.510
strong need at the lower income and affordable
00:44:46.510 --> 00:44:49.670
housing area. Because the truth of the matter
00:44:49.670 --> 00:44:52.969
is high -cost housing up until recently at least
00:44:52.969 --> 00:44:55.230
still had its profit margins that incentivized
00:44:55.230 --> 00:44:59.010
builders to focus there. But it's hard to get.
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:02.980
the kind of return for workforce housing or affordable
00:45:02.980 --> 00:45:05.840
housing. Some home builders have figured out
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:07.900
how to do that and bless them for meeting that
00:45:07.900 --> 00:45:11.119
need in the market. But we've got to build more
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:13.980
homes of all kinds. And there are advocates within
00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:17.559
the housing ecosystem that think that we ought
00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:21.280
not to just increase overall supply, that we
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:24.500
ought to just focus on one part of the need market.
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:26.800
And that doesn't work. Yeah, I was going to ask
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:27.679
you about that. That does not work. And my favorite
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:30.400
example is this, the starter home. And why is
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.480
that my favorite example? Well, we all know that
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:37.119
we're not building very many. Yeah. In fact,
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:39.900
they used to be. I'm trying to remember the percent.
00:45:39.940 --> 00:45:44.360
It was 37%. Now it's 7 % of what's being put
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:46.599
up. But think about it. I'm surprised it's that
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:50.039
high. Seven? Yeah. So you got young people that
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.619
want to get started on building equity. But you
00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:56.039
also have old fogies like me. that would like
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.239
to downsize. My wife and I have been trying to
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:00.219
find a place to downsize. We can't find a place
00:46:00.219 --> 00:46:04.519
to downsize to. And so there's that double pincher
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:08.380
action on the starter home market, which we're
00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:12.019
actually building less of. But think of what
00:46:12.019 --> 00:46:15.920
would happen if we built a whole lot more starter
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:18.420
homes that would enable people that are renting
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:22.409
to buy, which would free up those units. The
00:46:22.409 --> 00:46:24.250
provision of housing is part of an ecosystem.
00:46:24.630 --> 00:46:27.389
All the parts are related. We cannot look at
00:46:27.389 --> 00:46:30.110
one part to the exclusion of the other. And here's
00:46:30.110 --> 00:46:33.670
the other thing we can't do. We can't build public
00:46:33.670 --> 00:46:37.110
housing our way out of this. There aren't enough
00:46:37.110 --> 00:46:43.730
public resources to build housing, public housing,
00:46:43.849 --> 00:46:56.489
to solve this problem. 20 times what we have
00:46:56.489 --> 00:46:59.610
spent in the entire history of the State Housing
00:46:59.610 --> 00:47:03.789
Commission over the next 10 years. Wow. It's
00:47:03.789 --> 00:47:07.309
not going to happen. No. So we need to build
00:47:07.309 --> 00:47:08.969
more homes of all kinds for all our neighbors.
00:47:09.070 --> 00:47:10.610
The other thing we need to do is be a little
00:47:10.610 --> 00:47:17.210
innovative. You know, your mom and dad's manufactured
00:47:17.210 --> 00:47:20.610
home is not the manufactured home of today. Factory
00:47:20.610 --> 00:47:25.449
-built homes are built way faster at 25 % to
00:47:25.449 --> 00:47:29.210
30 % discount. And when you assemble them on
00:47:29.210 --> 00:47:33.269
site, they are indistinguishable than site -built
00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:36.449
homes because of the quality. And by the way,
00:47:36.489 --> 00:47:39.090
the quality control is better in the factory
00:47:39.090 --> 00:47:41.630
than it is on site because you get all the angles
00:47:41.630 --> 00:47:46.750
the same. They're accurate. So we need to incentivize
00:47:46.750 --> 00:47:49.070
that. As a matter of fact, we're 3D printing
00:47:49.070 --> 00:47:51.489
homes in several areas of the country, not here
00:47:51.489 --> 00:47:54.449
yet. But that's not too far away. What are we
00:47:54.449 --> 00:47:56.969
doing to encourage and facilitate and incentivize
00:47:56.969 --> 00:48:03.389
that quicker, cheaper? So what you just talked
00:48:03.389 --> 00:48:05.789
about, a lot of the things you described, there's
00:48:05.789 --> 00:48:08.769
a million complexities in there, right? And what
00:48:08.769 --> 00:48:12.590
you just said could be characterized as an oversimplification,
00:48:12.590 --> 00:48:15.309
but you hit on a lot of the high points that
00:48:15.309 --> 00:48:17.110
I've been looking at, and I think a lot of people
00:48:17.110 --> 00:48:20.329
agree with. How is the debate going on in the
00:48:20.329 --> 00:48:23.429
legislature with the decision makers? Are they
00:48:23.429 --> 00:48:26.590
on the same page with that? Because we find oftentimes
00:48:26.590 --> 00:48:29.789
that there's an emphasis on investing in affordable.
00:48:30.570 --> 00:48:34.369
investing in public, and a reticence to say,
00:48:34.429 --> 00:48:37.750
okay, market -based solutions, market -based
00:48:37.750 --> 00:48:39.969
housing of different levels are also part of
00:48:39.969 --> 00:48:42.530
this, and we should be putting investments into
00:48:42.530 --> 00:48:45.530
those areas as well. Because there's a reason
00:48:45.530 --> 00:48:47.570
why they're not building starter homes anymore.
00:48:47.989 --> 00:48:51.949
It's too damn expensive, right? The cost to just
00:48:51.949 --> 00:48:56.090
get off the ground adds so much to the cost of
00:48:56.090 --> 00:48:57.530
those smaller homes that you might as well put
00:48:57.530 --> 00:49:00.289
in more square footage. I mean, that's really
00:49:00.289 --> 00:49:03.269
one of the reasons. Yes. You talked about when
00:49:03.269 --> 00:49:05.389
I bought a first home. We talked about when you
00:49:05.389 --> 00:49:06.829
bought a first home. I'll bet your house was
00:49:06.829 --> 00:49:10.530
small. Mine was 800 square feet. Wow. Good luck
00:49:10.530 --> 00:49:13.269
finding one today. Right. Right? That house has
00:49:13.269 --> 00:49:15.630
been sold over and over and over again, and thank
00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:17.889
goodness it's there. But, I mean, that was the
00:49:17.889 --> 00:49:20.429
old model. You bought small, and then your family
00:49:20.429 --> 00:49:23.199
grew, and you bought a little bigger. You moved
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:24.940
out and someone moved in, just like you said,
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:27.000
right? And then you moved up again and someone
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:28.739
moved out and someone moved in. And eventually
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:31.159
you downsized. And then you go back and the cycle
00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:33.900
continues. You're going to break into the circle
00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:37.280
of life song here. I might. But we've lost those
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:40.579
pieces. Yes. And we've made it so expensive to
00:49:40.579 --> 00:49:43.820
build new, we can't afford to build that starter
00:49:43.820 --> 00:49:47.480
piece anymore. Right. So how do we get the decision
00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:51.710
makers to have the same? thoughts, the same understanding
00:49:51.710 --> 00:49:54.289
of the problem, and be willing to take the bold
00:49:54.289 --> 00:49:56.409
action that you're talking about at all levels.
00:49:56.929 --> 00:49:59.429
Well, I've been at this a long time, and there
00:49:59.429 --> 00:50:01.250
are days when I think it's impossible to get
00:50:01.250 --> 00:50:04.690
there. But at the end of the day, you just got
00:50:04.690 --> 00:50:08.130
to get up out of bed every day and pound away
00:50:08.130 --> 00:50:10.250
on the problem statement and show the facts.
00:50:10.449 --> 00:50:12.690
I mean, this is data -driven. I'm not making
00:50:12.690 --> 00:50:14.909
anything up. I just said these are all facts.
00:50:15.389 --> 00:50:17.690
Average age to buy a home is 40. Is that acceptable
00:50:17.690 --> 00:50:21.170
to you? It's crazy. Right. It's crazy. So you
00:50:21.170 --> 00:50:23.989
just got to keep at this. And, you know, it's
00:50:23.989 --> 00:50:26.889
like, frankly, I'll get myself in trouble here,
00:50:26.969 --> 00:50:29.570
but like a lot of problems in society, it wouldn't
00:50:29.570 --> 00:50:31.050
hurt for us all to look in the mirror a little
00:50:31.050 --> 00:50:35.550
bit. Yeah. I mean. That's great advice. We all
00:50:35.550 --> 00:50:39.389
often play a part in why it is we can't. We can't
00:50:39.389 --> 00:50:42.750
build houses. You know what else? We can't site
00:50:42.750 --> 00:50:45.230
battery storage. You know what else? We can't
00:50:45.230 --> 00:50:46.949
upgrade our transmission lines. You know what
00:50:46.949 --> 00:50:49.449
else? We can't build new energy production. You're
00:50:49.449 --> 00:50:53.369
talking about my entire work projects for the
00:50:53.369 --> 00:50:57.789
next 10 years. But I'm telling you, Paul, if
00:50:57.789 --> 00:51:01.130
not being able to do those things straight lines
00:51:01.130 --> 00:51:05.090
out at the trajectory it's on now, it will have
00:51:05.090 --> 00:51:08.809
dire consequences to our state. Well, add conservation,
00:51:09.150 --> 00:51:14.760
add water supply, right? You know, data capacity
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:18.079
onto your transmission capacity, right? Add energy
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:20.639
production itself on all of those things. 50th
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:22.900
out of 50 states in renewable energy last year.
00:51:23.059 --> 00:51:25.420
50th. Well, that one, you have to remember, that
00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:26.900
one's a little bit of a grain of salt because
00:51:26.900 --> 00:51:29.619
some people classify renewables as hydro and
00:51:29.619 --> 00:51:31.860
others don't. No, and added production. Right,
00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:35.119
but we were already 60 % hydro, which was renewable,
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:36.679
versus, you know, natural gas and coal. Oh, okay,
00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:38.739
so let's not do anymore? No, I'm not saying.
00:51:38.739 --> 00:51:40.980
What are you saying? We're not adding any energy
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:44.760
production, Paul. I agree. Renewable or not renewable.
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:48.380
Yeah, I agree. I just think that that statistic
00:51:48.380 --> 00:51:50.460
is a little skewed because we didn't start with
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:56.079
primarily coal and natural gas. So, as we bring
00:51:56.079 --> 00:52:01.619
this to a close, Paul, I have a confession to
00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:05.059
make. Oh. We're going to hear it right here for
00:52:05.059 --> 00:52:08.340
the first time? Yeah. Okay. You ready? I'm not
00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:12.880
sure. I would not be sitting here. Were it not
00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:17.559
for my county government that hired me in 1971
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:21.059
to work on the road crew when it was all political
00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:23.219
patronage and I happened to know a county commissioner
00:52:23.219 --> 00:52:26.159
because I was a 15 -year -old kid that a few
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:28.119
years earlier had gone out and knocked on doors
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.199
to help him get elected. Were you doing crack
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:31.679
filling or what were you doing on the road crew?
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:33.880
Yeah, snippy crew. Of course. Yeah, the oil crew.
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:35.800
That's how everybody gets started. Yeah, and
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:39.420
it was actually hard. It was hard work. Yeah,
00:52:39.460 --> 00:52:41.159
it's hard work. I mean, I shoveled gravel all
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:44.219
day long. Yeah. It's amazing I still have a back
00:52:44.219 --> 00:52:47.739
because you're putting that broad square shovel
00:52:47.739 --> 00:52:50.320
into the bottom of the pickup or into the bottom
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.619
of the dump truck and then twisting and spreading
00:52:53.619 --> 00:52:55.719
it. Yep. I mean, can you imagine that weight
00:52:55.719 --> 00:53:01.099
all day long? But it was a great job, and it
00:53:01.099 --> 00:53:05.409
paid decent wages. 19 -year -old kid. Well, that's
00:53:05.409 --> 00:53:06.929
not much of a confession. I thought it was going
00:53:06.929 --> 00:53:10.010
to be much more exciting than that. That's the
00:53:10.010 --> 00:53:12.969
raciest I have for you. I don't get any racier.
00:53:13.429 --> 00:53:15.650
Well, you were born and raised in Washington
00:53:15.650 --> 00:53:18.190
State. Clark County. You are a Washington State
00:53:18.190 --> 00:53:22.429
original. And frankly, I think we're lucky to
00:53:22.429 --> 00:53:25.210
have you. I think you're very kind. No, I think
00:53:25.210 --> 00:53:29.710
others agree. I don't think that's an unpopular
00:53:29.710 --> 00:53:31.829
opinion. I think most people, when they think
00:53:31.829 --> 00:53:37.730
of you, think of a great public servant and certainly
00:53:37.730 --> 00:53:40.389
a gentleman and an honorable man. Do you remember
00:53:40.389 --> 00:53:45.630
the first time we met? No. It was in your office
00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:49.530
in Congress in Washington, D .C. I was part of
00:53:49.530 --> 00:53:52.170
the group to come to talk to you the very first
00:53:52.170 --> 00:53:54.989
time. You were on the county commission then.
00:53:55.030 --> 00:53:56.809
Right, and we were coming to talk to you about
00:53:56.809 --> 00:54:00.230
the Yakima Basin Integrated Plan. Ah, that's
00:54:00.230 --> 00:54:02.809
ringing a vague bell now. And we started into
00:54:02.809 --> 00:54:06.289
our whole pitch, and you said, guys, stop. You
00:54:06.289 --> 00:54:11.949
had me at hello. Like you were. Like we were
00:54:11.949 --> 00:54:14.210
on a date and I was Tom Cruise and you were Renee
00:54:14.210 --> 00:54:18.889
Zellweger. Yeah. Okay, Paul. I'm Tom Cruise.
00:54:19.369 --> 00:54:21.429
You're Renee Zellweger. Well, but you used the
00:54:21.429 --> 00:54:27.829
line. I don't care. I'm Tom Cruise. You're Renee
00:54:27.829 --> 00:54:30.469
Zellweger. But anyways, that was the first time
00:54:30.469 --> 00:54:32.769
we met. And then I'd see you occasionally on
00:54:32.769 --> 00:54:35.909
the flights to D .C. Actually, on the flights
00:54:35.909 --> 00:54:39.690
back to D .C. and then here in Washington State.
00:54:40.010 --> 00:54:45.409
after you won the role of lieutenant governor.
00:54:45.630 --> 00:54:48.409
But I remember I would even roll past your signs
00:54:48.409 --> 00:54:50.489
occasionally when you were running for Congress.
00:54:50.530 --> 00:54:53.750
Didn't they say, give Congress heck? Yeah. What
00:54:53.750 --> 00:54:57.369
a great political sign. And when I ran for the
00:54:57.369 --> 00:55:00.409
legislature, my slogan was give Olympia heck.
00:55:01.730 --> 00:55:06.170
And I've always been, therefore, quadruply grateful
00:55:06.170 --> 00:55:09.150
that the man who adopted me and changed my name,
00:55:09.690 --> 00:55:14.230
from Williams to Heck made possible my campaign.
00:55:14.349 --> 00:55:17.070
That was fortuitous. It absolutely was. Thank
00:55:17.070 --> 00:55:20.329
you, Dad. Appreciate it. Well, thanks for joining
00:55:20.329 --> 00:55:22.309
us, Lieutenant Governor. It's been a real pleasure.
00:55:22.829 --> 00:55:26.170
I love talking to you, and I know our members
00:55:26.170 --> 00:55:28.250
are really going to enjoy hearing this conversation.
00:55:28.530 --> 00:55:31.429
I hope you'll come back sometime. Of course.
00:55:33.449 --> 00:55:35.550
To the degree that you have members actually
00:55:35.550 --> 00:55:38.230
listening, Paul, and we'll knock on wood that
00:55:38.230 --> 00:55:41.150
you do, I want to thank them all for their willingness
00:55:41.150 --> 00:55:44.070
to engage in public service for a job that is
00:55:44.070 --> 00:55:47.269
at times very, very difficult. You know, one
00:55:47.269 --> 00:55:53.510
of the opportunities of being a statewide elected
00:55:53.510 --> 00:55:57.570
official is to actually be able to speak on behalf
00:55:57.570 --> 00:56:02.789
of all 8 .2 million citizens. But it's also a
00:56:02.789 --> 00:56:05.809
responsibility to do that, and I take delight
00:56:05.809 --> 00:56:08.550
in exercising that responsibility by expressing
00:56:08.550 --> 00:56:11.969
all those people's gratitude for people being
00:56:11.969 --> 00:56:14.690
willing to serve in elective office. Thank you
00:56:14.690 --> 00:56:17.210
for having me, Paul. Well, thank you again for
00:56:17.210 --> 00:56:18.710
coming, and thank you for your service, really.
00:56:19.389 --> 00:56:24.380
The public service that you have displayed. throughout
00:56:24.380 --> 00:56:27.260
your career and the way that you go about your
00:56:27.260 --> 00:56:30.199
work serving the public has been? So as you alluded
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:32.840
to before, I was the host of Inside Olympia on
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:35.719
TVW when I was there, and I did weekly interviews.
00:56:35.980 --> 00:56:38.539
And I'll never forget the time that I interviewed
00:56:38.539 --> 00:56:42.440
Lyle Kwasim, who was the secretary of the Department
00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:44.699
of Social and Health Services and held all manner
00:56:44.699 --> 00:56:48.900
of very high responsibility jobs in state government
00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:51.380
and elsewhere. He's just a great guy and a dear
00:56:51.380 --> 00:56:55.750
friend. had a very colorful background, and had
00:56:55.750 --> 00:56:58.949
a good interview, and we got done. The interview
00:56:58.949 --> 00:57:02.710
was over, and he said, too bad you didn't ask
00:57:02.710 --> 00:57:06.090
me about the three times I was shot growing up
00:57:06.090 --> 00:57:10.070
in Chicago. I went, ah, turn the tape back on.
00:57:10.070 --> 00:57:13.150
Yeah, let's start again. Paul, I have no such.
00:57:13.739 --> 00:57:15.840
Well, you don't. Sensational background to share
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:18.119
with you. Maybe not, but there are a ton of things
00:57:18.119 --> 00:57:20.559
that we got into today that we could certainly
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:24.380
go a lot deeper into. Another time. Another time.
00:57:24.579 --> 00:57:26.559
Thanks, everybody, for listening. Thank you,
00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:29.079
Lieutenant Governor, for joining us. Just like
00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:30.639
the Lieutenant Governor said, thanks for your
00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:32.559
service and everything that you do for your communities
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:38.500
every single day. Thanks for tuning in to County
00:57:38.500 --> 00:57:40.860
Connection. Stay in the loop by subscribing to
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And don't forget to join The Hub, your go -to
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Washington State Association of Counties. Until
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next time, stay connected and stay informed.