Breaking Codependency After Abuse: Boundaries & Self-Trust with Barb Nangle I Ep. 133

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Hi Warriors, welcome to Beyond the Statistics, formerly one in three.
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I'm your host, Ingrid.
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The term codependency is often used when describing victims of domestic violence.
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Too frequently, it's framed as though the victim is somehow responsible for the abuse.
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But the reality is abusers exploit vulnerabilities through manipulation and coercive control, creating dependence over time.
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Today I'm joined by Barb, a boundaries coach, to discuss healthy boundaries, codependency, and types of trauma that can contribute to codependent patterns.
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Let's begin.
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Hi, Barb.
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Thank you so much for joining me on Beyond the Statistics today.
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How are you doing?
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I'm great.
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Thanks again for inviting me.
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I'm really excited for this conversation.
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I think this is a very important conversation for listeners.
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So thank you so much for joining me.
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And before we get into that conversation, could you share just a little bit about yourself so we can get to know you some?
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Sure.
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Um, my name is Bart Nangle.
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I'm a boundaries coach, speaker, and podcaster.
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I live in New Haven, Connecticut.
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And um I grew up being terrified of public speaking.
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And now not only have I been podcasting for over seven years, but give me a microphone and a stage, and I am on it.
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And it's so wild to me that I used to be afraid of it.
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I remember I went to community college and then on to eventually get a master's degree, but I went part-time for a long time.
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And at that school, you had to take speech.
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And I waited till the last possible moment to take it because I was so terrified.
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And I think I was 28 at that point in time.
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So just know people like things can change.
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You can change, your fears can change.
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I'm right there with you.
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I was actually just speaking with a friend the other day about when I was, gosh, I think all the way through high school, I was almost mute.
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I did not like speaking to people.
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I was very, very much introverted, very shy.
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And a lot of people actually thought that I was stuck up or something because I just wasn't talkative, but it's because I was shy.
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And then I had, I remember my speech actually brought me back to my speech class in college.
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But same thing.
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Yeah.
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And now you can't get me to stop talking.
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Yeah, same, same.
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I talk okay.
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Yeah.
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So you actually have a story that I think might resonate with some listeners.
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It's it's not an intimate partner story, but it is in terms of both of you living in the same dominant housing situation.
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It is a domestic situation.
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Do you mind sharing some of that with us?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So um, what Ingrid's referring to is the story I told her um when we chatted before um deciding that I would be a guest on her podcast.
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So um I am in 12-step recovery.
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Initially, I got there for codependence, which I will define in a few minutes in case people don't know what that is.
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But so my story is that in 2015, when I was 52 years old, I hit what I call a codependent bottom.
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And what happened was I um had invited a homeless friend from church named Dan to stay at my home during a really big snowstorm here in New Haven, Connecticut.
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And like I now know that it's not normal to invite homeless friends to stay in your home.
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But I was like, I'm nice, you know, that's why I did it.
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And so, of course, he said yes.
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And then he stayed another time and another time, and within a few weeks, he was practically living with me.
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And I soon felt trapped in my own home.
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Um, this guy fucked with my head in a way I had never experienced.
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Um, he made me feel like I was the problem person, that I was crazy, that I wasn't like a giving, caring person, that I was throwing him under like all kinds of things.
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And so one day I'm in a therapy session and I'm talking about Dan.
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In the middle of a sentence, I go, Oh my God, do you think I need to go to Al-Anon?
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And my therapist says yes.
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And again, we'll we'll talk about what Al-Anon is in a few minutes, in case you don't know.
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And I so I had heard of Al-Anon because like I knew people who went to 12-step recovery.
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Dan went to Alcoholics Anonymous, not to get sober.
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It was to be warm and to drink coffee.
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And um, so I went home to Google and whatever I was looking for Al-Anon, but the word codependent came up.
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And I was like, wait, what?
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How have I never heard of this word?
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Because at that point in time, I had been in therapy for 37 years, not continuously, but damn close.
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Because I started when I was 15.
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I started reading self-help books when I was like 22, 23, and continued to read them voraciously to this day.
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I had done workshops, workbooks, seminars, spiritual, blah, blah, blah, you name it.
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And I'm like, how did I never hear of this word before?
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And it describes me.
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So I found that there's a 12-step fellowship called Codependence Anonymous.
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And I started going and I felt a sense of relief almost immediately.
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I think partly from understanding there's this thing, codependence, that describes me that other people have, that you can change this pattern, that there's a recovery pattern.
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And then I remember saying to someone who may have been Dan, I was like, I think I need to be reparented, but I don't know where I got that from.
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I think I thought I made it up.
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And then six weeks into going to Coda, which is like the nickname for Codependence Anonymous, I went up to Cape Cod, Massachusetts to stay with a couple friends, one of whom had been an AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, for at that point, 10 years.
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And she, every time she talked about it, she just raved about how just radically her life was transformed as a result of it.
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And I'm like, you're gonna love this because I'm going to Codependance Anonymous.
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And she was like, oh, that's great.
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Let's see if we can find a coda meeting while you're here.
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And she couldn't, but she found an ACA meeting, which I had heard of at the time as ACOA, adult children of alcoholics.
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Never occurred to me that I would qualify for that program.
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Never occurred to me why do adult children of alcoholics need a program.
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Now I understand alcoholism is a family disease.
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The drinking behavior of the alcoholic is just the tip of the iceberg of symptoms, but we tend to make it like that's the problem.
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And so I went to an ACA meeting with her because she is an adult child of an alcoholic.
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And I walk in, and the opening readings, they said we reparent ourselves.
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And I was like, wait, what?
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And then they read the list of the 14 traits of an adult child.
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And my friend tells me I sobbed the whole meeting.
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I don't remember that, but I bought the literature, came home to New Haven, started going to that, um, going to ACA in New Haven, um, got into a group to do the 12 steps of the ACA 12-step workbook.
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Um, continued to go to the CODA meeting, but I just went to the meeting.
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I didn't do anything outside of the meeting with that fellowship, but I really dug into the program in ACA.
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And I was just astonished at how much I learned about myself.
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So the way I think about it in grid is that all of that personal development work I did for 37 years before recovery like scratched the surface of the iceberg of my life, and recovery melted the iceberg of my life.
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And I think that's because one, the 12 steps of recovery are an amazing technology for human change.
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Two, I came to understand that I um that intergenerational family dysfunction was the problem, and the result was childhood trauma.
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And ACA, I now describe it as a trauma recovery program where you reparent yourself and use the 12 steps to recover.
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But I didn't know any of that stuff at the time.
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I just knew that they're describing my childhood experiences and my adult experiences and my relationship problems and my behavior patterns that I met many of which I didn't even see after all those decades of personal development work.
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And I was changing and growing, and the people around me were.
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So I've been abstinent for over 10 years.
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And so I've done the 12 steps in both programs and just been, you know, really transformed.
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And all of this was happening while I worked full-time at Yale University.
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My career was there.
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I was a program coordinator for urban education, prevention, and policy research, primarily running college access programs.
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And about two and a half years into my recovery journey, I got laid off from Yale.
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And I found my way into the world of startups, innovation, and entrepreneurship in New Haven and at Yale.
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Started my own business, started my podcast really specifically to be like, there's tons of wisdom in 12-step recovery, none of which I've ever heard of.
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Never thinking that the podcast would have anything to do with my business.
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And it's now the number one way that I get clients.
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And became a coach, didn't know.
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I mean, I literally stumbled my way here.
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And here I am eight years later, still going, you know, um, and uh didn't know you need to have a niche and all that.
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And then when I realized that it just made sense for me to be a boundaries coach because I think of my core wound as being codependence, and boundaries are basically the antidote to that.
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So learning how to build healthy boundaries came to me almost as a byproduct of doing the 12 steps.
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And as I got a better handle on them, I did a lot more reading and learning about boundaries.
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And I I would um make drawings because I'm a visual learner to depict what I was reading about.
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Like if this was in the physical world, what would it look like when I was reading about boundaries?
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And it helped me retroactively understand what happened such that I didn't have boundaries, and then what happened such that I did build them.
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And those drawings turned into handouts, which turned into a workbook, which is now the backbone of my boundaries coaching program.
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And so, you know, that's that's like the gist of the story, how I got here.
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I'm sure there were other things that will come out in my story.
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There's obviously a lot more than that, but I know we want to kind of get into defining some things and get people some like actual, concrete information that will help them actually move forward in their lives, potentially change their behavior, all that kind of stuff.
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Yeah, because I think codependency is often connected, or people will say that you're codependent in these abusive relationships.
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And I definitely want to get into that because I don't want people to take that as their part of the problem or they're deserving of what's happening to them.
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But just just because we need to quiet my own curiosity, what happened to Dan?
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So it's hard to remember all the details because it was a very volatile time of my life.
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But um, and I remember specifically saying this to you, and the and I will describe like the moment.
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So I happen to be, I have a finished basement, I'm in my basement, and my washer and dryer is right there, and that's literally where I fell to my knees, right there.
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There was an interaction with him.
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I have no idea what was going on, and I my knees literally buckled, and I fell to my knees, and I said to him, I'm having a flashback.
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I don't know how I knew to use that language.
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I meant an emotional flashback.
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I never even heard of an emotional flashback.
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I don't know how he knew how to name it.
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He thought I was having a drug flashback, which I mean, I've done a lot of substance use, but never anything that would give me a flashback.
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And he like leapt into action.
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He was like, you know, get in touch with your senses.
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What do you smell?
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What do you see?
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What do you hear?
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And I remember I like that was helpful, but I also he was the laziest mofo I have ever met in my entire life.
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So to see him leap into action was so jarring.
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And I think the way that I would describe that moment of my knees buckling, it was the moment where I need to get rid of him or I'm gonna die.
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And I can't let go of him because I feel responsible to save him, and I'm gonna die if I don't save him.
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And those two forces like collided in me and made my knees buckle.
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And I don't know the timeline, but I remember soon after that giving him$150 and saying, go stay in a hotel.
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And he left and he came back the next day and gave me back$100 and said, This is way too much money, which says something about his like worthiness, you know.
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Um, and then I he left and a f a mutual friend contacted me and said he, oh, I drove him.
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I live on the New Haven Harbor and he was from West Haven, the other side of the harbor, and I drove him over there and left him there.
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And then a mutual friend let me know that he was coming back, then he was walking to my house.
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So I literally left my house for the weekend because I knew if I'm here, I'm letting him in.
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I knew it.
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So I left for the weekend.
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And I I don't remember I think he never came back here again, but I will say I so I remember I met I met him from church.
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Okay.
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So I remember this one time while this some of I don't know the timeline again.
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While this is happening, he came to church one day, and I now I can see I had a trauma response.
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I didn't know that at the time.
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And I remember texting my therapist, but for HIPAA reasons, she didn't keep my phone number in her phone, so she didn't know who I was.
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And I'm like, Dan is here in church, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And I had some friends with me who kind of knew what was going on, and they sat with me, but I was literally like vibrating in my system.
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I was scared shitless.
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And I don't really remember what happened with that.
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But then I remember a few weeks later, after being in recovery, I was the deacon on the door, which meant I was going to be doing the scriptural reading and I was also a greeter at the door.
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And when I read the scripture reading that morning, I remember I don't have no idea what it was.
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I remember thinking Dan's gonna be there today.
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I just like had this knowledge, he's gonna be there today.
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And lo and behold, I'm on the front steps and he comes walking up.
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And he didn't trigger me the way that he had just a few weeks ago.
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I felt so like solid in myself, and so it was like his, I it was almost like I had developed this force field around me just from the few weeks of work I'd done in recovery that repelled whatever the energy he was that he had that like brought me to my knees.
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And he looked at me and I knew that he knew I had changed, and I never saw him again after that.
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I later heard from that same mutual friend that he somehow made his way to Texas, and then I later heard that he died.
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So I I don't know the details, I can't imagine that it was a good death.
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I I can't imagine knowing his history.
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But yeah, and and I when I look at my history of codependence, I can't say what it is about him.
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Like at first, I thought it was only codependent in my romantic relationships, but then when I got into recovery and I did the steps and I looked at my life, I realized, no, it's every relationship.
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My friends, my family, the people I volunteer with, the people that I work with, my neighbors, everybody.
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But it was worse in my romantic relationships.
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So I can't say what it was about Dan, but the way I look at him, Ingrid, is like he was an angel sent to me to hit my codependent bottom and get into recovery, change my life, and then carry the message of recovery to other people who still suffer.
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So I have nothing but gratitude for Dan.
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Well, and just the fact that you not having a reaction that last time you saw him, and that was the last time you saw him, kind of reinforces that belief.
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Do you know if there was anything in particular that you worked on those couple of weeks that it's all murky for me?
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And maybe it wasn't a couple weeks.
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I don't, I timeline, I don't know.
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I know the weekend that I got him out of my place was Memorial Day weekend.
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So that would have been 2015.
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Okay.
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Wow.
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That is, and I think again, so many people are going to resonate with that story because that that feeling almost like that addictive feeling, if they go, I'm going to die.
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Right.
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And it like I think of it like I'm a food addict and I'm a map.
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I mean, I drank abusively for decades.
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I smoked bales of weed.
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It I think of codependence, it's an addiction to people.
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And what it's really about is safety.
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Because what we have done when we grow up codependent is we have learned, especially in our childhood, in order for me to be safe in this world, I need other people to be okay with me.
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I need their approval.
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I need them to not, you know, leave me, reject me, et cetera.
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And we know that that pattern worked because we made it out of childhood.
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But it doesn't work in adult relationships.
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It is not prime ground for creating healthy relationships.
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In fact, it's how we create unhealthy relationships.
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And so, you know, we develop these patterns to protect ourselves and then they end up sabotaging us.
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And so, you know, this is, and we'll get into this later, but this is where boundaries come in because, you know, what I've realized, I mean, I knew this for a long time, but I didn't name it.
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I realized, I think while I was guesting a podcast actually last year, that creating boundaries is about creating a sense of internal safety.
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So rather than going to the outside world and trying to appease other people and get them to be okay with us and get their approval so we can feel okay and safe, we learn I can actually create the safety internally.
00:20:38.569 --> 00:20:44.890
And it doesn't mean you're calm all the time, it doesn't mean you never get triggered, it doesn't mean everything is peachy keen all the time.
00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:51.450
What it means is I know that I'm not going to abandon myself even when someone is upset with me.
00:20:51.690 --> 00:21:02.250
I know I'm not going to abandon myself just because I feel uncomfortable when you know someone is mad at me or yells at me.
00:21:02.569 --> 00:21:05.049
I know that I will have my own back.
00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:18.569
And in the beginning, um it's definitely harder, but as time goes on, like you build self-trust by giving yourself the experience of not abandoning yourself.
00:21:18.650 --> 00:21:31.210
And so when I say abandon yourself, I mean things like, let's say I set a boundary with you, Ingrid, and you're like, you know, you're yelling at me, and you're like, no, I'm not putting up with this or whatever.
00:21:31.370 --> 00:21:44.809
If I were to abandon myself when you said that, I'm abandoning the boundary that I set with you, the standard that I have for my life, and I'm letting you and your upsetness dictate how I'm gonna run my life.
00:21:45.049 --> 00:21:48.490
Or let's say I set a boundary with you and you're totally okay with it.
00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:51.049
And you're like, oh, okay, Barb, thanks for letting me know.
00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:51.930
I didn't know.
00:21:52.170 --> 00:21:54.970
But I still get flooded with guilt.
00:21:55.450 --> 00:22:01.930
And then I use that guilt almost like as an instruction, like, Barb, you've done something wrong and you have to fix it.
00:22:02.009 --> 00:22:03.289
And then I backpedal.
00:22:03.450 --> 00:22:11.769
So that backpedaling and believing that the guilt is true and real is me abandoning myself.
00:22:12.009 --> 00:22:17.850
So me creating a sense of internal safety is me doing a bunch of things.
00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:19.930
So some of it is nervous system stuff.
00:22:20.009 --> 00:22:25.610
What do I need to do to calm, you know, soothe, catch my breath, feel safe in my body?
00:22:25.690 --> 00:22:27.210
And then also what I tell myself.
00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:31.690
So I tell myself things like discomfort does not mean danger.
00:22:32.410 --> 00:22:38.809
Um, her upsetness is not an instruction for me to do anything that I've done anything wrong.
00:22:38.970 --> 00:22:43.930
Um, this guilt feeling is because I'm breaking a pattern.
00:22:44.410 --> 00:22:46.970
It's not because I've done something wrong.
00:22:47.210 --> 00:22:49.130
And it feels so foreign to me.
00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:52.410
It's like my identity is shifting and I feel guilty.
00:22:52.569 --> 00:22:55.049
So I had a client a few weeks ago.
00:22:55.210 --> 00:23:03.210
I I'm not going to go into the details of what she was trying to keep the focus on herself and what she needed.
00:23:03.450 --> 00:23:06.170
And she was like, but I'm a helper person.
00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:10.809
My and so she might as well have said, my identity is helper, right?
00:23:11.049 --> 00:23:15.529
And I said, okay, let's deconstruct your notion of what it means to be helpful.
00:23:15.769 --> 00:23:19.049
You're telling me if I do this thing, it's not good for me.
00:23:19.289 --> 00:23:22.410
It's not good for my friend, and it's also not good for my family.
00:23:22.569 --> 00:23:32.650
So to you, being helpful means I quote, help to my own detriment, the detriment of the people around me, including my family.
00:23:32.890 --> 00:23:35.850
So I don't get to be included in the people that I'm helping.
00:23:35.930 --> 00:23:39.930
And I even have said out loud, this isn't really going to help this person.
00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:40.490
Right.
00:23:40.569 --> 00:23:45.049
So you have this distorted definition of what it means to be helpful.
00:23:45.289 --> 00:24:05.769
And, you know, one thing I learned really early in recovery, I remember going to someone in Coda specifically and saying, okay, I'm starting to get this idea that there's this continuum of helpfulness, where on one end of the continuum, we've got kindly, helpful, functioning, healthy, you know, behavior.
00:24:06.090 --> 00:24:11.610
The other end, we've got dysfunctional, rescuing, fixing, enabling, unhealthy behavior.
00:24:11.690 --> 00:24:14.650
And I said, I'm starting to get the difference.
00:24:14.809 --> 00:24:18.009
It's in that middle part of the continuum that I'm confused.
00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:23.130
How do you go from just being a normal, helpful person to all of a sudden you're rescuing?
00:24:23.370 --> 00:24:26.250
And they said, well, it really depends on why you're doing it, Barb.
00:24:26.330 --> 00:24:28.730
Are you helping them because you really want to be helpful?
00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:32.730
Are you helping them because you want them to like you?
00:24:32.890 --> 00:24:36.250
And I was like, I'm helping them because I want to be helpful.
00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:37.210
And I meant it.
00:24:37.289 --> 00:24:42.009
And then let me tell you something, Ingrid, that question percolated when I started observing my behavior.
00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:44.250
And it wasn't I want people to like me.
00:24:44.330 --> 00:24:45.769
It's that I wanted their approval.
00:24:45.850 --> 00:24:50.890
I wanted them to think that I was helpful, that I was reliable, that I was dependable, that I was a woman of my word.
00:24:51.130 --> 00:24:56.170
And I cared more that they thought that than I cared about being helpful.
00:24:56.250 --> 00:25:01.450
So I cared more about being perceived as helpful than I did being helpful.
00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:12.009
And if you really just want to be a helpful person, you're gonna stop at the point where you are filled with anxiety, you're filled with resentment, you're completely drained.
00:25:12.250 --> 00:25:18.970
Um, you are asking yourself why you're doing like people that are just regular helpful stop before it gets anywhere near there.
00:25:19.049 --> 00:25:29.529
So if you're telling yourself, I'm doing this because I'm helpful, yet you're filled with resentment, which is a fantastic indicator, that I call it a diagnostic tool.
00:25:29.769 --> 00:25:33.450
It's time for a boundary, or it's time to shore up a boundary.
00:25:33.690 --> 00:25:41.610
Now, resentment can mean other things too, but it's very like if you're a helper and you're resentful about helping, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, time for a boundary.
00:25:42.009 --> 00:26:00.890
So that understanding that I was being helpful really ultimately because I needed people's approval, and then understanding the reason I need with claws, need their approval, is because that's what makes me feel safe in the world.
00:26:00.970 --> 00:26:02.490
It's my identity.
00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:04.330
I am a helper person.
00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:16.170
And so when I stop being as helpful, like bending over backwards and super accommodating people, I'm disrupting this identity I have as a helper person.
00:26:16.250 --> 00:26:18.890
And that's where the guilt comes from.
00:26:19.370 --> 00:26:26.330
So the best way to get rid of the guilt is to stop abandoning yourself.
00:26:26.569 --> 00:26:38.809
I remember somebody shared a reel with me like a couple years ago from a therapist, and she said the guilt we feel when setting boundaries is proportional to how much we abandon ourselves.
00:26:38.970 --> 00:26:45.769
In other words, if you want to stop feeling guilty when you set boundaries, stop abandoning yourself.
00:26:46.009 --> 00:26:47.210
And it is hard.
00:26:47.370 --> 00:26:49.769
It is really hard, but it's worth it.
00:26:49.850 --> 00:26:56.009
So it's about building this sense of internal safety and building self-trust.
00:26:56.330 --> 00:27:00.330
So I know when I got in recovery, I did not trust myself.
00:27:00.730 --> 00:27:02.890
I didn't realize I didn't love myself.
00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:03.930
I think I liked myself.
00:27:04.090 --> 00:27:06.009
I didn't love myself and I didn't have self-worth.
00:27:06.090 --> 00:27:07.850
I also didn't know I didn't have self-worth.
00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:10.569
If you had asked me before recovery, do you feel worthy, Barb?
00:27:10.730 --> 00:27:12.090
I would have been like, absolutely.
00:27:12.330 --> 00:27:14.330
No, no, no, no, no.
00:27:14.490 --> 00:27:24.250
Like when I did the 12 steps and I looked at the course of my life and my patterns of behavior, it was like, that is not a woman who feels worthy.
00:27:24.330 --> 00:27:27.450
And I now have high self-worth.
00:27:27.850 --> 00:27:32.250
I truly love myself and I truly trust myself.
00:27:32.490 --> 00:27:44.170
And when I look at what happened, how did I go from not being able to do those things to being like high value, like I, you know, feel worthy, I trust myself, I love myself.
00:27:44.330 --> 00:27:51.850
Frankly, it was the boundary building process because what you're doing when you're building boundaries is getting to know yourself.
00:27:52.009 --> 00:27:54.410
Like people are like, how do I know what my boundaries are?
00:27:54.730 --> 00:27:58.730
Well, let's talk about what's important to you, what matters to you.
00:27:58.890 --> 00:28:04.250
The way I do it in my coaching is I help people come up with a list of their top five values.
00:28:04.330 --> 00:28:10.410
And it's not just here's the name of the value, is what does that value mean to you and why is it important to you?
00:28:10.650 --> 00:28:17.930
And when you start focusing your decision making and your boundaries on your values, that's the opposite of abandoning yourself.
00:28:18.090 --> 00:28:28.250
That is you focusing on you and letting your internal compass, which is where those values bubble up from, tell you this is who I am.
00:28:28.490 --> 00:28:32.809
And, you know, we're living in a time right now, Ingrid, where a lot of people are like, what's my purpose?
00:28:32.890 --> 00:28:33.610
I need to know my purpose.
00:28:33.769 --> 00:28:34.730
I need to live on purpose.
00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:40.170
Here's your purpose: live in alignment with what matters to you.
00:28:40.330 --> 00:28:45.289
It will not steer you wrong because those things matter to you for a reason.
00:28:45.610 --> 00:28:51.769
So that is how I've been teaching people to stop abandoning themselves for the longest time, but I wasn't calling it that.
00:28:51.850 --> 00:28:55.450
I wasn't calling it uh creating internal safety.
00:28:55.610 --> 00:29:09.610
And once I named it, I was like, oh my God, now that I have a name for this, it like retroactively helped me understand everything that I've been teaching and frankly experiencing because I teach what I've experienced.
00:29:09.850 --> 00:29:12.809
And I don't know why I'm good at teaching it.
00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:21.450
You know, like especially when I started my podcast, I'm like, I don't know why when I share my experience, it's helpful to people.
00:29:21.610 --> 00:29:23.370
I'm just talking, right?
00:29:23.529 --> 00:29:29.690
But there it's clear to me that there's something about me talking that is helpful to people.
00:29:29.930 --> 00:29:47.610
It's, I guess, the way that I relate my experience, the fact that I'm willing to give details, vulnerable details that a lot of people would never share publicly, never mind recorded for all of history, you know, and then also I have a way of translating my emotional experience.
00:29:47.769 --> 00:29:49.450
I'm a huge fan of metaphor.
00:29:49.610 --> 00:29:56.009
I feel like meaning sinks in so much deeper when we can connect to something through a metaphor.
00:29:56.170 --> 00:30:02.330
Um, and there's just something about the combination of all that that somehow resonates with people.
00:30:02.569 --> 00:30:09.690
So, you know, my job in my mission in life now is to carry the message of recovery to those who still suffer.
00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:13.049
Okay, there's so much information.
00:30:13.850 --> 00:30:14.890
I love it though.
00:30:15.130 --> 00:30:15.690
I love it.
00:30:15.930 --> 00:30:20.730
Okay, so I was actually thinking when you were going through the codependency.
00:30:22.090 --> 00:30:29.930
Um, in relation to domestic abuse, abusers want their victims to be codependent.
00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:42.890
So even if going into the relationship, you don't have this strong codependency characteristic, they're going to find out what vulnerabilities you have.
00:30:43.049 --> 00:30:47.690
They're going to exploit that to then make you dependent on them.
00:30:48.009 --> 00:30:55.529
And that's what I think the listeners to this podcast are going to be in all the all of these different stages.
00:30:55.610 --> 00:31:06.970
So there are going to be some, there's there's someone out there that is in an abusive relationship right now, and they have been programmed to become dependent on that person.
00:31:07.690 --> 00:31:18.410
And when you're there, when you're in the throes of an abusive relationship, that may not be the right time to start setting super strong boundaries because there is a danger factor.
00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:19.610
Agreed, agreed.
00:31:20.170 --> 00:31:26.569
But so it if if that's you, get yourself out, that's when you can start healing yourself.
00:31:26.650 --> 00:31:39.529
And then I think that's part of the recognition because that's so many of us, once you get out, again, before you went into this relationship, you may not have been a very co huge codependent person, but now you are.
00:31:39.690 --> 00:31:40.009
Yeah.
00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:49.049
I think I think probably every one of us that has gotten out of an abusive relationship has a degree of codependency that was forced upon us.
00:31:49.130 --> 00:31:52.970
And that's where feeling where the cycle of violence comes in.
00:31:53.130 --> 00:31:56.250
It's essentially the cycle of turning someone into a codependent person.
00:31:56.330 --> 00:31:58.330
They slowly but surely erode your self-esteem.
00:31:58.410 --> 00:32:11.289
They slowly but surely erode your social network, they make you question your reality, and they make you, because they've eroded your self-esteem in your social network, they make you be dependent on them.
00:32:12.009 --> 00:32:17.289
And because they've made you question your reality, you never know where is the ground.
00:32:17.529 --> 00:32:39.850
Because when you and like for me, when I think about like I've never been through a domestic violence, but I I grew up in a home that um where I had what's called a relational trauma, which I I would I think like domestic violence, even if it's not physically violent, it is relational trauma because it happens in the context of a relationship over and over and over again.
00:32:40.250 --> 00:32:48.970
And um for me, the worst effect of growing up with intergenerational family dysfunction is questioning my own perception.
00:32:49.130 --> 00:32:50.890
And it's bad enough when you're an adult.
00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:52.090
Can you imagine being a kid?
00:32:52.170 --> 00:32:59.049
You don't even understand how the world works, and you are like questioning your own perception.
00:32:59.130 --> 00:33:09.769
And if you can't trust your own judgment, then how on earth can you make decisions about what's actually good for you, what's actually safe for you?
00:33:09.850 --> 00:33:13.690
And that's what the abusers are relying on.
00:33:13.850 --> 00:33:17.930
And what what so I'm a sociologist by training, Ingrid.
00:33:18.330 --> 00:33:25.289
And I remember when I learned about the cycle of violence, and that it's perpetuated, that's what everybody does.
00:33:25.450 --> 00:33:29.610
There's one particular path, the cycle of violence that is repeated over and over.
00:33:29.769 --> 00:33:32.890
It's not like people sit around and go, okay, here's what you're gonna do.
00:33:33.049 --> 00:33:34.809
You're gonna slowly but surely blah, blah, blah.
00:33:35.049 --> 00:33:38.330
No, it's just it's something like as a social scientist.
00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:40.490
I'm like, how is that happening?
00:33:40.650 --> 00:33:47.049
Like, how is that the formula for creating a codependent person, you know, as you're saying?
00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:50.410
Um, but that's really essentially what it is.
00:33:50.569 --> 00:33:52.569
And so I 100% agree with you.
00:33:52.730 --> 00:34:14.809
Get the fuck out first, and then like get physically safe, and then learn how to slowly but surely build your self-trust, build your self-worth, build your self-love, get clear on what matters to you, and then live as if those things matter to you.
00:34:15.130 --> 00:34:26.009
And you will, when you do that, you will not be anywhere near as susceptible, and perhaps not at all susceptible to that kind of a relationship again.
00:34:26.969 --> 00:34:27.369
Yeah.
00:34:27.610 --> 00:34:32.730
So are there clues that you're slowly becoming codependent?
00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:42.089
Um, you know, that's a toughie for me to answer because I was brought up codependent from childhood, right?
00:34:42.329 --> 00:34:50.969
So I think, you know, rather than saying that you're becoming codependent, I can say some signs of codependence.
00:34:51.210 --> 00:35:05.129
So, like the most important one is you care way more what other people think of you than what you think of yourself, what what someone else, but it's usually it's not just one person, but in in the case of domestic violence, it could very well just be that one person.
00:35:05.449 --> 00:35:18.169
If you put a lot more credence to what they think of you than to what you think of yourself and what you know of yourself, you're probably codependent.
00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:26.169
If you are focused way more on what are they doing, what are they thinking, especially what are they thinking about me?
00:35:26.649 --> 00:35:34.569
And like recall, like I'm normally, these are the same things I say outside of a podcast on domestic violence.
00:35:34.649 --> 00:35:37.529
This is true, whether there's domestic violence or not.
00:35:37.689 --> 00:35:50.889
I think it just takes on a different flavor in a domestic violence situation because there's a very clear pattern of someone doing this, maybe not consciously on purpose, but it's on purpose.
00:35:51.210 --> 00:35:51.849
Right.
00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:56.569
And so you're focused basically externally.
00:35:56.649 --> 00:35:58.329
You're not paying attention to yourself.
00:35:58.569 --> 00:36:10.329
You neglect yourself, you neglect your needs, you justify, they need it more than I do, they know better than I do, their feelings matter more than mine.
00:36:11.210 --> 00:36:21.049
And so a huge part of learning how to build healthy boundaries is taking that focus from the external world and bringing it internal.
00:36:21.369 --> 00:36:23.689
So starting to figure out what matters to me.
00:36:23.769 --> 00:36:30.569
Like I remember like being told you need to ask yourself, Barb, what do you want or need in this situation?
00:36:30.649 --> 00:36:31.849
And I was like, what?
00:36:32.409 --> 00:36:35.529
Like I've never asked myself that because I'm a helper.
00:36:35.609 --> 00:36:37.129
I'm always like, what does he need?
00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:37.849
What does she need?
00:36:37.929 --> 00:36:38.569
What do they need?
00:36:38.649 --> 00:36:39.609
What does the situation need?
00:36:39.769 --> 00:36:40.889
What does the organization need?
00:36:41.049 --> 00:36:42.569
What does the cause need?
00:36:43.049 --> 00:36:46.649
So for me to be like, what do I need?
00:36:46.809 --> 00:36:47.769
Like, I don't know.
00:36:47.929 --> 00:36:49.769
Like, why would I ask myself that?
00:36:49.849 --> 00:36:56.809
And then so I will say, like, I talk about, um, I've been talking about for years, keep the focus on yourself.
00:36:56.889 --> 00:37:02.409
And I didn't understand that that was the beginning of building internal safety.
00:37:02.489 --> 00:37:06.809
And so, you know, the first way is to ask, what do I want or need?
00:37:06.969 --> 00:37:08.969
In the beginning, you will not know.
00:37:09.289 --> 00:37:10.409
Keep asking.
00:37:10.569 --> 00:37:16.089
And then even when stuff starts to bubble up and you start to realize what you know, you're probably not gonna give it to yourself.
00:37:16.329 --> 00:37:17.129
That's okay.
00:37:17.369 --> 00:37:18.329
Keep asking.
00:37:18.409 --> 00:37:25.689
And then eventually you will, and then you won't, and you will, and you won't, and you won't, and you will, and you will, and you won't, and you will, and you won't, and you will, and you will, and you will, and you won't, right?
00:37:25.769 --> 00:37:27.369
That's human behavior change.
00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:28.969
That is how behavior changes.
00:37:29.129 --> 00:37:33.210
But if you ask yourself once, what do I want or need, and you don't know, don't give up.
00:37:33.369 --> 00:37:34.329
Just keep asking.
00:37:34.489 --> 00:37:36.730
What do I want or need in this situation?
00:37:36.889 --> 00:37:38.649
And you'll start to realize things.
00:37:38.809 --> 00:37:44.250
And again, now I'm talking about you're out of the violent, threatening situation.
00:37:44.409 --> 00:37:48.329
You are out in the world, you are safe, you are starting to build things.
00:37:48.489 --> 00:37:52.250
You start to realize, you know, this makes me really uncomfortable.
00:37:52.409 --> 00:37:56.169
And instead of just plowing through, I feel really uncomfortable.
00:37:56.649 --> 00:37:58.649
You honor that, you know.
00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:05.929
So, so one thing that I've realized is that I don't like gigantic social gatherings.
00:38:06.089 --> 00:38:12.569
I would much rather go to a party with like six people than a house party.
00:38:13.529 --> 00:38:17.369
And I now know that about myself.
00:38:17.529 --> 00:38:37.689
And so instead of going anyway and feeling like creepy and weird and uncomfortable and can't wait to leave, or like when I was a compulsive overeater standing in front of the food and just eating the whole time, or or serving people, that was the other thing I'd always do, to give me a role because I'm a helper person.
00:38:38.169 --> 00:38:40.730
Now I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna go.
00:38:40.889 --> 00:38:49.529
And I that means like when you start honoring that, you have to you get to learn how to withstand when other people like, oh, come on, we really want you there.
00:38:49.689 --> 00:38:52.569
Like it's just not, you know, it's not my thing.
00:38:52.649 --> 00:38:56.730
I don't really like a big like when you have a small gathering, I'm happy to be there, right?
00:38:57.049 --> 00:39:05.929
So you learn something like, I don't like going to really large parties, but you're probably gonna still go for a while.
00:39:06.089 --> 00:39:11.289
And maybe even from time to time you might, but you might put some boundaries on it for yourself.
00:39:11.369 --> 00:39:16.089
Like tell yourself, I'm going from 7:30 to 8:30 and I'm leaving.
00:39:16.409 --> 00:39:18.409
And then you honor it, right?
00:39:18.489 --> 00:39:26.649
You don't let other people say, oh, come on, stay, stay, stay, even if you're having a good time, because you know I'm gonna be completely drained when I go home.
00:39:26.809 --> 00:39:31.449
I'm gonna need hours for my nervous system to settle, you know, and all that stuff.
00:39:31.689 --> 00:39:34.009
So you it's getting to know yourself.
00:39:34.169 --> 00:39:45.689
Like I was such a chameleon in grid that I don't remember if I told you this in our pre-conversation, but you know, I mentioned like I, former substance user, hair, abusive drinker until I was like in my early 40s.
00:39:45.929 --> 00:39:48.569
Um, I started drinking beer as a teen.
00:39:48.730 --> 00:39:49.609
That's what everybody drank.
00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:53.849
Well, then in my 20s, I dated a guy who was a wine connoisseur.
00:39:53.929 --> 00:39:54.889
So I learned all about wine.
00:39:54.969 --> 00:39:55.769
I started drinking wine.
00:39:55.849 --> 00:39:59.849
Well, then I dated a guy who drank Jack Daniels, so I drank Jack Daniels.
00:40:00.089 --> 00:40:04.649
And then I dated a guy who was a beer connoisseur, and I learned that I really like Belgian wheat beers.
00:40:04.889 --> 00:40:06.730
I didn't even have my own damn drink.
00:40:06.889 --> 00:40:11.609
So the way I think of it, Ingrid, is there was a lot of barb that was up for negotiation.
00:40:11.689 --> 00:40:12.730
And that's just one thing.
00:40:12.809 --> 00:40:18.809
And there's so many ways that I compromised myself and just kind of fit in.
00:40:19.049 --> 00:40:21.689
And I was proud of being a chameleon.
00:40:21.769 --> 00:40:26.889
And now I'm like, oh, you don't know who you are when you're a chameleon.
00:40:26.969 --> 00:40:35.689
Like you think you fit in everywhere, but you really don't, you know, and you start paying attention to that, being like, hmm, this really isn't okay with me.
00:40:35.849 --> 00:40:36.889
I don't like this.
00:40:37.049 --> 00:40:38.809
And then you honor it.
00:40:39.609 --> 00:40:42.409
Yeah, I um I know who I am.
00:40:42.489 --> 00:40:44.809
I'm the not party at all, big or small.
00:40:44.889 --> 00:40:47.049
I'm the pajamas on the couch.
00:40:47.210 --> 00:40:47.369
Okay.
00:40:48.169 --> 00:40:48.889
What about a one-on-one?
00:40:49.049 --> 00:40:50.009
Do you like one-on-one?
00:40:50.329 --> 00:40:51.369
Like, I do.
00:40:51.449 --> 00:40:59.289
I'll I'll let myself I definitely go into social situations, but I was actually trying to think, would I rather a big party or a small party?
00:40:59.529 --> 00:41:00.009
I'll go.
00:41:00.169 --> 00:41:01.369
I'll go to either one.
00:41:01.529 --> 00:41:01.769
Yeah.
00:41:01.929 --> 00:41:10.329
And I know that in the back of my mind, I'm so looking forward to just getting back into comfy clothes and just vegging out.
00:41:10.489 --> 00:41:16.329
Yeah, I'm thinking the last party I went to was very good, dear friend of mine, and I knew a bunch of friends were gonna be there.
00:41:16.409 --> 00:41:21.529
It was on New Year's Eve, and it was a totally sober party, which that that's only I only go to sober parties.
00:41:21.609 --> 00:41:24.649
And um, and it was too much for me.
00:41:24.809 --> 00:41:30.969
And but I went because uh at FOMO, didn't want to miss out because a bunch of my this is actually a friend from recovery.
00:41:31.049 --> 00:41:43.289
So, like there was like 12 of us from our ACA women's meeting that were there, and we did a picture, and then after we did the picture, I was like, I'm out, you know, and I'm like, I don't, this is now when I want to meet new people.
00:41:43.529 --> 00:41:46.089
I don't, I want to stick with my people that I know.
00:41:46.250 --> 00:41:52.649
And I went, you know, for all those reasons, but I also didn't stay, like I didn't stay till midnight.
00:41:52.889 --> 00:41:55.689
No, like I no, you know what I mean?
00:41:55.849 --> 00:42:06.569
So I went, but if it was somebody else and I knew it was gonna be a big, huge party, no, I'm not doing it, you know.
00:42:06.889 --> 00:42:16.329
Well, and it doesn't necessarily mean that my comfort zone is sitting here on the couch that I should never ever ever do anything else, that I'm ignoring my boundaries if I do.
00:42:16.569 --> 00:42:24.329
Because I also actually do enjoy pushing myself beyond my comfort zone because that opens up doors to different opportunities.
00:42:24.809 --> 00:42:25.369
Yeah.
00:42:25.689 --> 00:42:33.210
So, okay, we've talked about codependency and and healing and setting boundaries.
00:42:33.369 --> 00:42:38.969
Are there other tips on boundaries before we move into different forms of trauma and identifying that?
00:42:39.289 --> 00:42:42.730
Yeah, I mean, I think like people ask me, like, how do I start?
00:42:42.889 --> 00:42:46.009
And I think the best way to start, like, I wish I knew this.
00:42:46.169 --> 00:42:49.689
I didn't even know I was setting boundaries or building boundaries when I was doing it.
00:42:49.769 --> 00:42:50.569
It was after the fact.
00:42:50.649 --> 00:42:52.089
I was like, oh, these are boundaries.
00:42:52.329 --> 00:42:58.250
So I would say starting with yourself first, because setting boundaries is behavior change.
00:42:58.329 --> 00:43:05.529
You're gonna have feelings, so you might as well have these feelings come up when no one else is involved so that you can process them on your own.
00:43:05.689 --> 00:43:07.449
So I'll give you an example.
00:43:07.689 --> 00:43:15.689
Uh, one of the first boundaries that I was then aware, this is me setting a boundary, was I was working full-time at Yale.
00:43:15.929 --> 00:43:40.250
I would go into my personal email for some reason, and there would be an email from my ex-boyfriend, and I would feel compelled to open it immediately, and I'd be pissed off at him because he interrupted my day, and then I would like flare off a response to him, and I'd be like, and I'd be pissed at him for interrupting my day.
00:43:40.409 --> 00:43:44.009
And then I came to realize, like, uh, he's not interrupting my day.
00:43:44.089 --> 00:43:45.849
I am, because I didn't have to open that.
00:43:45.929 --> 00:43:53.689
But I actually, I swear to God, Ingrid, not dumb, but I needed my friends in recovery to say, Barb, you don't need to open that email.
00:43:53.929 --> 00:43:56.649
And I was like, wait, but he's gonna think I'm a bad person.
00:43:56.730 --> 00:43:59.289
They were like, he's not gonna know when you open the email.
00:43:59.609 --> 00:44:12.409
And like, okay, I my pattern was so deep, and my focus on him and what he was doing, even he was my ex boyfriend of almost a year at that point, right?
00:44:13.210 --> 00:44:21.369
And I'm more concerned with him and what he thinks that I needed to be told, you don't have to open that email.
00:44:21.689 --> 00:44:25.689
So then I eventually got to the point where I was like, I don't have the psychic space for that.
00:44:25.769 --> 00:44:28.889
And then eventually I got to the point where Wait, I can block him.
00:44:29.049 --> 00:44:31.369
It was probably two years before I blocked him.
00:44:31.529 --> 00:44:36.089
I finally sent him a text and I was like, listen, I wish you all the best.
00:44:36.250 --> 00:44:39.609
I'm not interested in any kind of a relationship with you.
00:44:39.849 --> 00:44:44.730
And it was sometime after that that I realized I can block, like, stop fucking emailing me.
00:44:44.889 --> 00:44:47.369
We're not friends and we're not together.
00:44:47.769 --> 00:44:52.089
So, what happened when I first like got the idea?
00:44:52.250 --> 00:44:53.369
I don't have to open that.
00:44:53.449 --> 00:44:54.569
I have all these feelings.
00:44:54.649 --> 00:44:58.089
Like he's gonna think I'm a bad person and oh my God, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:44:58.489 --> 00:45:01.609
So you get to process those feelings on your own.
00:45:01.769 --> 00:45:03.210
There's nobody else involved.
00:45:03.369 --> 00:45:05.369
The repercussions are for you and you alone.
00:45:05.529 --> 00:45:08.649
So you get better at setting boundaries with yourself.
00:45:08.969 --> 00:45:11.609
Then you set boundaries with easy-going people.
00:45:11.689 --> 00:45:14.569
So someone who's gonna be like, oh, thanks for letting me know.
00:45:14.649 --> 00:45:15.849
I didn't realize that.
00:45:16.089 --> 00:45:18.009
I'm so glad you told me.
00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:20.649
You know, and then you get better at it.
00:45:20.730 --> 00:45:25.289
And then you start setting boundaries with more and more difficult people in situations.
00:45:25.369 --> 00:45:30.329
So you don't want to start with the boundary that is the hardest one.
00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:39.929
And then the other thing I would say I think um really important is like once you start setting boundaries with other people, do it as soon as possible.
00:45:40.089 --> 00:45:44.969
Like as soon as you know that was not okay with me, you say something.
00:45:45.210 --> 00:45:47.529
Because I used to try to wait for the right time.
00:45:47.609 --> 00:45:49.129
And like the right time never comes.
00:45:49.289 --> 00:45:54.569
There's this, I think it's a Chinese proverb, and it says, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago.
00:45:54.730 --> 00:45:55.849
The next best time is today.
00:45:56.009 --> 00:45:59.049
The best time to set a boundary with someone was the day you met them.
00:45:59.210 --> 00:46:01.689
The next best time is today, right?
00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:05.129
So don't wait because that builds up stress inside of you.
00:46:05.289 --> 00:46:12.409
And also it's polite to just tell them as soon as you know, and it lets go of your tension.
00:46:12.649 --> 00:46:16.250
And another tip I have is be polite.
00:46:16.329 --> 00:46:24.969
And the reason I say that as a tip, Ingrid, is that I think what happens for a lot of us is we wait until we get pushed way, way, way, way, way beyond our limits and we explode.
00:46:25.609 --> 00:46:27.049
And it works.
00:46:27.289 --> 00:46:30.409
So we think, oh, that's what I have to do to set boundaries.
00:46:30.569 --> 00:46:32.329
I have to explode and be a jerk.
00:46:32.409 --> 00:46:33.609
And you actually don't.
00:46:33.769 --> 00:46:38.969
And in fact, if you do it immediately, you're much less likely to explode.
00:46:39.210 --> 00:46:42.569
So those are some of my tips for like getting started.
00:46:43.609 --> 00:46:50.250
Well, and then just because somebody doesn't match your boundary doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person either.
00:46:50.409 --> 00:46:52.569
It just means that's your comfort level.
00:46:52.969 --> 00:46:58.329
Like, I can't, I can't even think of an example, but that's where you don't have to be a jerk.
00:46:58.569 --> 00:46:58.730
Right.
00:46:59.129 --> 00:46:59.369
Right.
00:46:59.529 --> 00:47:04.250
And, you know, like there's a whole host of reasons that people don't honor your boundaries.
00:47:04.409 --> 00:47:08.250
One could be they're testing you because they don't believe you because you've never been like that.
00:47:08.489 --> 00:47:11.289
Another could be they forgot because you've never been like that.
00:47:11.449 --> 00:47:13.529
Another could be they have shitty boundaries.
00:47:13.609 --> 00:47:17.289
And so it's going to be even more important for you to uphold them.
00:47:17.369 --> 00:47:20.329
And so when someone pushes back, that's not a bad sign.
00:47:20.489 --> 00:47:22.569
It's a sign, oh, they heard me.
00:47:22.809 --> 00:47:23.129
Right.
00:47:23.289 --> 00:47:29.210
And most of the time with normal people, you just say the same thing over and over again.
00:47:29.289 --> 00:47:31.529
Like, let's just say I asked you not to put something there.
00:47:31.689 --> 00:47:32.730
Like, please don't put that there.
00:47:32.809 --> 00:47:34.250
Please don't put, don't put that there.
00:47:34.329 --> 00:47:35.129
Please don't put that there.
00:47:35.210 --> 00:47:36.250
Perhaps you didn't hear me.
00:47:36.409 --> 00:47:37.289
Please don't put that there.
00:47:37.369 --> 00:47:39.769
And hear how my voice is on an even keel.
00:47:39.849 --> 00:47:47.129
Like in the beginning, I was feeling like I was gonna die inside, but I did the best that I could to keep my voice on an even keel.
00:47:47.289 --> 00:47:52.089
Because when I do that, I come across with a sense of I sound like I'm confident.
00:47:52.169 --> 00:47:55.929
And people believe people who sound confident over people who don't.
00:47:56.169 --> 00:47:59.049
You're not asking someone, you're telling them.
00:47:59.210 --> 00:48:00.569
A boundary is you telling.
00:48:00.649 --> 00:48:04.489
It's not a it's not, will you do this for me?
00:48:04.649 --> 00:48:05.929
It's please do this.
00:48:06.089 --> 00:48:08.569
Yeah, like you're talking to a kid because they're gonna push boundaries.
00:48:09.129 --> 00:48:09.929
Right, of course.
00:48:10.089 --> 00:48:11.529
Yes, absolutely.
00:48:11.689 --> 00:48:15.049
And you're the adult in charge, so act like it.
00:48:15.529 --> 00:48:15.929
Yeah.
00:48:16.089 --> 00:48:19.769
Okay, so then you also talked about relational trauma.
00:48:19.929 --> 00:48:21.529
Are there different kinds of trauma?
00:48:21.769 --> 00:48:22.089
Yeah.
00:48:22.329 --> 00:48:25.849
So when I got in recovery, never even heard of relational trauma.
00:48:25.929 --> 00:48:30.089
To my understanding, trauma was what I now know they sometimes call big tea trauma.
00:48:30.169 --> 00:48:31.609
And this is like the blunt trauma.
00:48:31.769 --> 00:48:34.730
You've been attacked, you've been in a hurricane, you were in a war.
00:48:35.449 --> 00:48:37.609
Um, so that's a thing.
00:48:37.769 --> 00:48:40.889
And then relational trauma is sometimes called little tea trauma.
00:48:40.969 --> 00:48:45.529
So this is what I call it like the emotional, like drip, drip, drip of emotional invalidation.
00:48:45.769 --> 00:49:02.250
It typically comes from childhood abandonment, and that can mean literal physical abandonment, like your parents left you, they died, one of your parents took off, you never met them, you were put up for adoption, you put in foster care, any of those things.
00:49:02.489 --> 00:49:17.129
So, not everybody that has childhood, you know, relational trauma has that kind of abandonment, but everybody that has um childhood, you know, trauma, uh the relational trauma has emotional abandonment.
00:49:17.289 --> 00:49:23.289
So this is um, so the way that I can't that I really it sunk in for me, okay, this is true.
00:49:23.369 --> 00:49:34.569
Because I was like, you know, when I heard some of the like brutal stuff that was happening to when I first got in recovery, I heard some really heinous stuff that happened to people and was like, none of that happened to me.
00:49:34.730 --> 00:49:40.329
Then I heard that trauma can result from the absence of good things happening.
00:49:40.489 --> 00:49:43.129
I was like, oh, okay, that's me.
00:49:43.289 --> 00:49:49.849
And then I later heard it said trauma can result or does result from unmet needs.
00:49:50.649 --> 00:49:58.649
So if your emotional needs are not met, if you are being told, do you want me to give you a reason to cry?
00:49:58.969 --> 00:50:32.569
Or um don't cry, stop being sad, or if it's just really clear, your parents, like if your parents are like really super strict, if they're mean, if they are physically abusive, if they're, you know, addicts, alcoholics, if they have mental illness, sometimes even if they have chronic illness, they don't have the capacity to be there for you and your emotions because they don't have the capacity to even process their own emotions.
00:50:32.649 --> 00:50:36.409
That's why this is called intergenerational family dysfunction.
00:50:36.569 --> 00:50:50.409
So one of the one of the huge things that happened for me in my recovery, Ingrid, is I had a gigantic chip on my shoulder uh about my dad when I got in recovery, and I have so much more compassion for him now.
00:50:50.569 --> 00:50:54.409
Now, I think intellectually I understand my parents did the best that they could.
00:50:54.569 --> 00:50:57.529
I really truly get now, my parents did the best they could.
00:50:57.689 --> 00:50:59.689
It wasn't good enough.
00:51:00.009 --> 00:51:02.169
That's different, right?
00:51:02.649 --> 00:51:06.250
So they did the best they could and it wasn't good enough.
00:51:06.489 --> 00:51:12.329
But I have compassion for them in a way that I never did before because this is intergenerational.
00:51:12.489 --> 00:51:19.929
The reason it wasn't good enough, the reason that they did the best they could and it wasn't good enough was because their parenting wasn't good enough.
00:51:20.169 --> 00:51:22.169
How far back do we go?
00:51:22.489 --> 00:51:25.210
You know, like back to Adam and Eve, we don't know.
00:51:25.369 --> 00:51:33.129
Like I don't even really believe in Adam and Eve, but anyway, you know what I mean, metaphorically, you know, first woman and first man, you know.
00:51:33.369 --> 00:51:36.969
Um, so there's no blaming.
00:51:37.210 --> 00:51:41.849
And the thing is, we get to take responsibility for our own healing and growth.
00:51:42.009 --> 00:51:57.049
If you spend your entire life being pissed off and blaming your parents, you're gonna have zero energy for taking the reins of healing your own self and stopping the intergenerational family dysfunction at this point.
00:51:57.210 --> 00:52:02.329
Even though, like, I don't have children, I'm never gonna have children, I'm still stopping it.
00:52:02.809 --> 00:52:13.769
You know, it's maybe not in my family, there's no family legacy after me, but I'm stopping it in the world by helping people understand this is what happened to you.
00:52:14.009 --> 00:52:18.649
Here's how you heal and change and grow and then help other people.
00:52:19.529 --> 00:52:27.210
So when somebody's not meeting your needs, obviously when you're a child, you you kind of have no choice in the matter, really.
00:52:27.289 --> 00:52:32.649
And you you're stuck with it until you're old enough to make decisions on your own or live on your own.
00:52:32.889 --> 00:52:49.449
But as an adult, and not even necessarily a romantic partner, but if there's there are family members or friends who are not meeting your needs emotionally, when like is there a limit where you say, you know what, I just need to exclude them from my life now?
00:52:49.609 --> 00:52:51.049
There's no more boundary setting.
00:52:51.210 --> 00:52:52.329
I just need to go.
00:52:52.569 --> 00:52:53.289
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:53.609 --> 00:53:04.250
So before I say more about that, I want to share uh a phrase that I heard on a podcast early in recovery, and it just completely blew my socks off.
00:53:04.329 --> 00:53:09.609
And it was this let go of your expectations of others and meet your own needs.
00:53:09.769 --> 00:53:11.849
And I was like, what?
00:53:12.569 --> 00:53:24.009
So at that time, I was starting to get a handle on the fact that I have had wildly unrealistic expectations of myself, other people, and the world.
00:53:24.169 --> 00:53:27.369
Like I wanted, like, I have very high standards for myself.
00:53:27.529 --> 00:53:31.609
That's okay, but to have impossible standards, not okay.
00:53:31.929 --> 00:53:36.329
I expected other people to do things my way, to listen to me.
00:53:36.489 --> 00:53:42.250
I expected like the political system to operate fairly and the educational system to operate fairly.
00:53:42.329 --> 00:53:50.169
And I expected the fucking cap on my toothpaste cap to snap closed when I snapped it closed.
00:53:50.409 --> 00:53:57.529
You know, and so like I was starting to understand this idea of letting go of my expectations.
00:53:57.689 --> 00:54:02.809
And I found that for me, I often didn't know I had an expectation until it was violated.
00:54:03.689 --> 00:54:06.889
I was like, oh, that was me expecting XYZ.
00:54:06.969 --> 00:54:14.969
But that second half of that sentence, let go of your expectations of others and meet your own needs, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what does this mean?
00:54:15.369 --> 00:54:24.889
So, what it often means is you set a boundary because if you aren't telling them this isn't okay with me, how can they know?
00:54:25.689 --> 00:54:36.730
And when we don't set boundaries with people, we often try to manipulate them to get them to do things because we don't want to come right out and say, that doesn't work for me.
00:54:36.969 --> 00:54:38.329
That's not okay with me.
00:54:38.489 --> 00:54:42.969
So we get to stop manipulating, learn how to communicate directly and meet our own needs.
00:54:43.049 --> 00:54:50.569
So I'm gonna give you a really, this is gonna seem like a dumb example, but life is made up of these mundane examples.
00:54:50.889 --> 00:54:56.409
So I am now um in the first and only healthy romantic relationship of my life.
00:54:56.489 --> 00:54:58.889
We've been together for seven and a half years.
00:54:59.289 --> 00:55:10.329
And I can now see that my boundaries have everything to do with me being able to even be in, because I know who I am and I know what's okay and not okay, and I can articulate that.
00:55:10.409 --> 00:55:12.730
And I have standards and I uphold them, right?
00:55:13.369 --> 00:55:21.689
So my sweetheart, all of the blankets at his house are either these scratchy wool blankets or they're down comforters and they make a lot of noise.
00:55:21.769 --> 00:55:25.689
And I like silent, soft bedding, right?
00:55:26.169 --> 00:55:40.009
So before recovery, if I had been dating him, then I would have expected that he should not only know that I like soft, quiet bedding, but he should have that.
00:55:40.250 --> 00:55:48.809
And every time I went to use a blanket, I would never say anything, but I would hold him accountable and I would give him like an emotional toll for doing that.
00:55:48.889 --> 00:55:53.289
And I would basically build a wall of bricks between him and I.
00:55:53.369 --> 00:55:56.889
Now multiply that times the 10,000 other things that I'm not telling him, right?
00:55:57.049 --> 00:56:04.250
But now that I've learned to let go of my expectations of others and meet my own needs, I bought a blanket that I brought over there and it's nice and soft.
00:56:04.329 --> 00:56:06.809
And I said, This is my blanket.
00:56:07.129 --> 00:56:10.009
When I'm not here, use it to your heart's content.
00:56:10.089 --> 00:56:12.250
But when I'm here, this is my blanket.
00:56:12.409 --> 00:56:17.049
So I let go of my expectations of him and met my own needs.
00:56:17.129 --> 00:56:21.849
Now I could have met my tried to meet my needs by saying, Can you get a soft blanket?
00:56:21.929 --> 00:56:23.849
And maybe he would, and maybe he wouldn't.
00:56:24.089 --> 00:56:26.169
But I decided to really do it on my own.
00:56:26.329 --> 00:56:27.609
Here's another example.
00:56:27.849 --> 00:56:32.250
So my sweetheart is a former um commercial photographer.
00:56:32.329 --> 00:56:38.169
So everything visual is like he's a super, he he notices stuff like earrings, nail polish, eye makeup.
00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:41.929
It's like, and I've never met a heterosexual man like this ever, right?
00:56:42.329 --> 00:56:50.489
So this one day I put on this brand new blouse and he was here visiting me, and I go downstairs, and he, I could tell he was kind of in a pissy mood.
00:56:50.649 --> 00:56:55.289
And I realized that I expected him to say, nice blouse, and he didn't.
00:56:55.529 --> 00:56:59.449
So I went upstairs and I looked in the mirror and I was like, nice blouse, Barb.
00:56:59.689 --> 00:57:07.609
So I what I wanted, my need was affirmation or um, you know, basically affirmation, right?
00:57:07.769 --> 00:57:09.369
So I gave it to myself.
00:57:09.449 --> 00:57:13.049
Now I could have said to him, What do you think of my blouse?
00:57:13.210 --> 00:57:14.169
And I know him.
00:57:14.250 --> 00:57:16.089
He would have said, Oh, it's really nice.
00:57:16.250 --> 00:57:21.849
So I could have, quote, met my need that way, but I chose to entirely do it on my own.
00:57:22.089 --> 00:57:36.169
And these may sound like dumb examples, but life is made up of this stuff, of these thousands of moments like this, you know, and so we get to meet our own needs.
00:57:36.329 --> 00:57:41.449
And so here's another example that I think goes to answering your question of how do you know when to let him go?
00:57:41.609 --> 00:57:44.649
So now things have changed with my brother in the last year.
00:57:44.730 --> 00:57:45.929
He's literally upstairs.
00:57:46.169 --> 00:57:53.449
We were completely disconnected for years, and we have reconciled and reconnected in a way that I never thought was possible.
00:57:53.689 --> 00:58:01.849
But when I first got in recovery, I thought that I could go visit my brother and say, I don't want to talk about your job and I don't want to talk about politics.
00:58:02.089 --> 00:58:06.250
Even though he and I agree politically, I don't, he's volatile about it, right?
00:58:06.329 --> 00:58:07.849
He was like all this stuff.
00:58:08.009 --> 00:58:13.769
And I thought that I could say that to him, and that was me setting boundaries, and he would go, Oh, okay, nope.
00:58:14.730 --> 00:58:15.289
Nope.
00:58:15.609 --> 00:58:21.369
Because I'm the one who doesn't want to talk about his job, and I'm the one who doesn't want to talk about politics.
00:58:21.529 --> 00:58:25.289
So a couple of times I went and was like, as a reminder, I don't want to talk about these things.
00:58:25.369 --> 00:58:29.689
And he could go like, I don't know, two minutes without talking about those things, and he couldn't do it.
00:58:29.849 --> 00:58:34.250
So when I finally was like, oh, these are my boundaries, not his.
00:58:34.409 --> 00:58:40.169
I can't turn him into someone who doesn't talk politics and doesn't talk about his job.
00:58:40.329 --> 00:58:41.529
What can I do?
00:58:41.769 --> 00:58:46.489
Oh, well, I can reduce the amount of time that I'm around him, I can go see him less frequently.
00:58:46.569 --> 00:58:51.049
And I finally realized I have like a 59-minute window with him.
00:58:51.449 --> 00:58:53.369
And then eventually it was zero.
00:58:53.609 --> 00:58:58.329
I just couldn't even be around him and I got disconnected with him for for years.
00:58:58.649 --> 00:59:06.329
So you try over time because you don't like a lot of times we don't know where our boundary is until we experiment.
00:59:06.489 --> 00:59:16.809
I know that one of the first times that I was setting a boundary, I went like this, wham! And as soon as I did it, I'm like, oh my God, that was way too harsh.
00:59:16.889 --> 00:59:21.609
Now, if I had known it was going to be too harsh, that's not the boundary that I would have set.
00:59:22.089 --> 00:59:24.569
I only knew once I did it.
00:59:24.649 --> 00:59:28.409
And so I realized, oh, I want to be a little softer next time.
00:59:28.569 --> 00:59:32.089
Like that, it's an experimental process to do that.
00:59:32.250 --> 00:59:41.210
So just like your own boundaries are going to be experimental, your boundaries with other people are, you need to experiment with that too.
00:59:41.449 --> 00:59:46.569
So I realized over time my idea of what setting a boundary was was wrong.
00:59:46.730 --> 00:59:48.409
That was me trying to control someone.
00:59:48.489 --> 00:59:49.210
That's not a thing.
00:59:49.369 --> 00:59:50.409
You can't do that.
00:59:50.649 --> 00:59:52.169
You can only control yourself.
00:59:52.329 --> 00:59:53.769
So you're the one with a boundary.
00:59:53.849 --> 00:59:55.449
What are you going to do?
00:59:55.689 --> 01:00:03.129
So, since I deal with a lot of people in recovery, and the classic codependent is someone who's in a relationship with an addict or an alcoholic.
01:00:03.529 --> 01:00:06.730
People think you can't drink is a boundary.
01:00:07.049 --> 01:00:07.369
No.
01:00:08.489 --> 01:00:19.289
If you drink, I will not give you money, I will not pick you up, I will not make excuses to your boss, I will not do your laundry, whatever those things are.
01:00:19.449 --> 01:00:21.609
If you drink, I will, right?
01:00:21.769 --> 01:00:24.169
So a boundary has a consequence.
01:00:24.409 --> 01:00:30.569
Saying you can't drink is you trying to control other people, and that isn't a thing that's possible.
01:00:31.210 --> 01:00:38.489
Well, and then how they respond to your boundaries is then what ends up leading to dictate whether or not that's somebody that you need to cut out.
01:00:39.049 --> 01:00:39.769
Right, exactly.
01:00:39.929 --> 01:00:40.169
Right.
01:00:40.250 --> 01:00:50.169
So if you have someone who just constantly pushes, pushes, pushes, pushes, pushes and will not take no for an answer or whatever, then that's feedback to you.
01:00:50.329 --> 01:00:53.929
Like this is probably not a person I want to continue having in my life.
01:00:54.169 --> 01:01:01.369
But um what boundaries do is like I've I've think I've hopefully gotten the point across.
01:01:01.449 --> 01:01:05.849
It's you getting to know yourself and then communicating what you know.
01:01:06.169 --> 01:01:11.369
So let me tell you something that happened at the very beginning of my relationship, which set the tone.
01:01:11.529 --> 01:01:15.769
And I will also say, like, I don't know how I knew how to say this stuff.
01:01:15.929 --> 01:01:19.289
Um, because I just stuff came out of me in the beginning.
01:01:19.369 --> 01:01:22.009
It's still in my relationship, but I'm like, I've never said anything like that.
01:01:22.089 --> 01:01:24.889
And I think one, I know myself, and two, I tell the truth now.
01:01:24.969 --> 01:01:27.689
Whereas I've lied my whole, especially people pleasing lying.
01:01:28.089 --> 01:01:34.489
So about three weeks into my relationship with my sweetheart, I had invited him to go to something with me.
01:01:34.649 --> 01:01:39.449
And it was in the evening, and he never responded, and he'd never done that before.
01:01:39.609 --> 01:01:43.609
And then he responded at 10 o'clock at night after I was home from the event.
01:01:43.849 --> 01:01:45.369
And I was really upset.
01:01:45.449 --> 01:01:52.569
And so I wrote, I texted him and I said, I'm feeling unsettled about the fact that you didn't respond to me until tonight.
01:01:52.809 --> 01:01:56.730
Can you help me tomorrow when I see you talk about this?
01:01:56.969 --> 01:01:59.449
I've never said anything like that in my entire life.
01:01:59.529 --> 01:02:00.489
And he was like, Yes.
01:02:00.569 --> 01:02:10.409
So what I've learned is that at least heterosexual men in relationships with women actually like to be asked, can you help me with something?
01:02:10.649 --> 01:02:10.969
Right.
01:02:11.210 --> 01:02:11.529
Okay.
01:02:12.250 --> 01:02:20.009
So I sit with him and I say, I am expecting for this conversation to increase our intimacy with each other.
01:02:20.089 --> 01:02:21.929
And I hope you do too.
01:02:22.409 --> 01:02:25.369
So I frame, I don't know how I knew how to say that.
01:02:25.529 --> 01:02:27.049
It was just the truth, right?
01:02:27.210 --> 01:02:30.089
So I frame this as this is an opportunity.
01:02:30.250 --> 01:02:31.369
Nobody's in trouble.
01:02:31.689 --> 01:02:41.129
As we processed it, what came out that he didn't even realize is that like I'm a busy person, I do a lot of things, and he has a chronic illness and he has to manage his energy.
01:02:41.289 --> 01:02:45.769
And like the first time he looked at my calendar, he was like, ah, like he couldn't handle it.
01:02:45.849 --> 01:02:49.769
And he was basically afraid that I was gonna get try to suck him into my world.
01:02:49.929 --> 01:02:53.769
But he didn't even realize that was what was going on.
01:02:53.929 --> 01:02:58.329
And he also said to me, I thought me not responding was a response.
01:02:58.409 --> 01:03:03.529
And I'm like, nope, that will not do going forward.
01:03:04.169 --> 01:03:08.009
A non-response is not a response in this relationship.
01:03:08.489 --> 01:03:12.889
And you know, that's a common thing that people say is no response is a response.
01:03:13.129 --> 01:03:13.289
Right.
01:03:13.369 --> 01:03:23.929
It is a response, but you are if you're gonna be in a relationship with me, you need to tell me no, not hint at no by not responding, right?
01:03:24.089 --> 01:03:27.449
That's not we're communicating directly in this relationship.
01:03:27.769 --> 01:03:29.849
Then I will tell you another thing.
01:03:30.169 --> 01:03:37.210
We went on a vacation and it was the most difficult week of our entire relationship.
01:03:37.449 --> 01:03:40.889
And we also had a good time, which that in the past would not have been.
01:03:41.210 --> 01:03:45.609
But after the vacation was over, I said to him, Can we?
01:03:45.689 --> 01:03:48.250
We were getting together on this night that we always get together.
01:03:48.329 --> 01:03:52.250
And I said, Can we spend like 30 minutes just kind of processing what happened this weekend?
01:03:52.409 --> 01:03:57.929
If we get to the end of 30 minutes and we're not done, we'll put a pin in it so that we can go on and have our regular evening.
01:03:58.169 --> 01:04:04.089
I don't know how I knew to say that, Ingrid, but what I did was I put a boundary around the conversation.
01:04:04.169 --> 01:04:07.449
So I let him and me know this is not gonna be a fight.
01:04:07.769 --> 01:04:11.369
This is not gonna take over our lives, this is not gonna go on forever.
01:04:11.449 --> 01:04:15.369
And I'm looking forward to us having our wonderful evening together.
01:04:16.089 --> 01:04:19.449
And I basically was like, I kind of turned you into my dad.
01:04:19.529 --> 01:04:21.689
And he was like, I kind of turned you into my mom.
01:04:21.929 --> 01:04:24.809
That's the gist of the conversation, right?
01:04:25.049 --> 01:04:31.689
And we both owned our shit and apologized and said, okay, in the future, here's what we're gonna do.
01:04:31.849 --> 01:04:35.210
And we managed to do it in less than 30 minutes.
01:04:35.449 --> 01:04:44.250
I've never said anything like that in my life, but because I understand boundaries, it's like drawing a line about like my boundaries or me drawing a line around me.
01:04:44.409 --> 01:04:47.529
Like here is the boundary, here are the boundaries of Barb.
01:04:48.250 --> 01:04:50.569
You know, this is what's okay and not okay with me.
01:04:50.730 --> 01:04:55.369
So those are examples of things that you can do in relationships with people.
01:04:55.609 --> 01:05:02.889
And if you are with someone who's not willing to have those conversations with you, that's probably not your person.
01:05:03.609 --> 01:05:03.929
Right.
01:05:04.089 --> 01:05:05.210
You have to communicate.
01:05:05.369 --> 01:05:05.849
You have to.
01:05:06.089 --> 01:05:06.250
Right.
01:05:06.409 --> 01:05:06.889
You have to.
01:05:07.129 --> 01:05:11.929
Uh so I wanted to bring up one more thing before I ask you if there's anything that we haven't talked about.
01:05:12.089 --> 01:05:33.609
But when you were you were talking about the new blouse and you were saying little things, I when I heard that, it was a huge thing because you you wanted some sort of validation and you trusted yourself and had enough respect for yourself to understand that validation from yourself saying in the mirror, nice blouse, that was enough.
01:05:33.689 --> 01:05:41.849
And I think that that is something that so many people struggle with is you can look in the mirror and say, oh, that looks good, but that's still not enough.
01:05:41.929 --> 01:05:43.769
You still need somebody else to tell you.
01:05:44.009 --> 01:05:44.250
Right.
01:05:44.409 --> 01:05:45.529
And sometimes that's true.
01:05:45.609 --> 01:05:50.569
Like I think there are some people who like they've swung the pendulum in all the way the other direction.
01:05:50.649 --> 01:05:52.569
Like, you don't need validation from others.
01:05:52.730 --> 01:05:53.609
Bullshit.
01:05:53.769 --> 01:05:55.449
You're a human being.
01:05:55.689 --> 01:06:04.889
The worst thing you can do to a human being is ostracize them, push them into the outside of the group or call them other, right?
01:06:05.049 --> 01:06:10.250
So, in other words, I need some kind of validation, some kind of affirmation.
01:06:10.649 --> 01:06:13.929
You exist, you matter, right?
01:06:14.009 --> 01:06:19.689
So to think you don't ever need outside validation from anybody, I think is bullshit.
01:06:20.089 --> 01:06:25.769
But to think I only need outside validation is the that's wrong.
01:06:25.929 --> 01:06:37.609
Like you get to To validate yourself, you get to use yourself as the decider of you know what matters and what doesn't.
01:06:37.689 --> 01:06:45.609
And if you have people around you that will never validate you, you need to start questioning are these the kind of people that I want to have around?
01:06:45.849 --> 01:06:48.889
Or that I want to like have around a lot.
01:06:49.609 --> 01:06:51.609
Yeah, that's a very, very good point.
01:06:51.849 --> 01:06:59.929
Okay, so if people want to get in touch with you or learn more about you or utilize your services, how do they do that?
01:07:00.250 --> 01:07:06.969
So since you're already listening to a podcast, hop on over on this same platform, whatever it is, to my podcast.
01:07:07.049 --> 01:07:11.049
It's called Fragmented to Whole Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery.
01:07:11.289 --> 01:07:13.929
I have at this moment in time 360 episodes.
01:07:14.009 --> 01:07:15.129
They're 10 to 20 minutes.
01:07:15.210 --> 01:07:15.929
They're not long.
01:07:16.089 --> 01:07:19.769
They're, I swear, obviously, you know, if you don't like that, don't listen.
01:07:20.169 --> 01:07:25.769
Um, I have uh I really only am active on LinkedIn at this point in time.
01:07:25.849 --> 01:07:27.529
It's I'm at Barb Nangle.
01:07:27.609 --> 01:07:37.609
And I actually just created something called the Internal Safety Resource Pack, specifically for podcast listeners.
01:07:37.849 --> 01:07:43.210
So they can go to my website, higherpowercc.com slash pack.
01:07:44.009 --> 01:07:46.649
And it's some of my best resources.
01:07:46.809 --> 01:07:58.089
It's um a handful of podcast articles, no, podcast episodes, articles, and a couple of other like clickable links to other handouts that will help you.
01:07:58.250 --> 01:08:02.969
When you do that, you will get on my email list, which you can unsubscribe from if it doesn't help you.
01:08:03.049 --> 01:08:06.409
And that's you'll hear about, and plus when you're on my website, you can explore it.
01:08:06.730 --> 01:08:20.569
I have tons of free low cost, mid-cost, and I also have my high-ticket, unshakeable you private boundaries coaching program for people who really want long-lasting deep transformation in their patterns.
01:08:20.810 --> 01:08:30.010
But you know, that I would say start with higherpowercc.com slash pack for the internal internal safety resource pack is the place to start.
01:08:30.329 --> 01:08:31.449
Okay, fantastic.
01:08:31.609 --> 01:08:38.329
And in closing, do you have any words of wisdom or encouragement that you want to specifically leave with listeners?
01:08:38.649 --> 01:08:44.250
Yeah, I want to say that discomfort does not mean danger.
01:08:44.649 --> 01:08:48.489
So, and I wish I said this earlier because this is going to be more than a minute.
01:08:48.649 --> 01:08:50.889
Um, there's two different kinds of discomfort.
01:08:50.970 --> 01:09:03.210
So there's the discomfort of dysfunction from you not knowing how to have healthy relationships where you're constantly upset or catastrophizing or blaming or complaining and in unfulfilling relationships.
01:09:03.529 --> 01:09:10.809
And that dysfunction, unless you do something drastic to change your ways, is going to last forever.
01:09:11.289 --> 01:09:14.170
And it's probably just going to get worse over time.
01:09:14.409 --> 01:09:19.369
And then there is the discomfort of growth and change.
01:09:19.529 --> 01:09:21.529
So we've got the discomfort of dysfunction.
01:09:21.609 --> 01:09:22.889
We're all familiar with that.
01:09:23.050 --> 01:09:25.130
And that's the other thing, is we're familiar with it.
01:09:25.210 --> 01:09:27.369
It sucks, but we know it, right?
01:09:27.769 --> 01:09:32.010
Then there's this discomfort of growth and change, like you start setting boundaries, right?
01:09:32.329 --> 01:09:38.409
Well, the reason it's uncomfortable is because it's novel, it's new, it's foreign, right?
01:09:38.569 --> 01:09:40.010
We don't know it.
01:09:40.409 --> 01:09:49.289
But if we keep doing the new pattern, it will become familiar and will no longer be uncomfortable.
01:09:49.609 --> 01:10:02.010
And on the other side of that discomfort is healthy relationships, peace, serenity, feeling good in your own life, in your own body.
01:10:02.250 --> 01:10:03.769
So, which discomfort?
01:10:03.929 --> 01:10:11.449
Do you want the discomfort of dysfunction that's never going to end, or do you want the finite discomfort of growth and change?
01:10:11.609 --> 01:10:14.729
It will end and there will be healing on the other side.
01:10:14.970 --> 01:10:26.250
So when you remember that, it's a lot easier to remember does like, is this the discomfort of dysfunction, or is this the dysfunction of growth and change?
01:10:26.409 --> 01:10:32.489
And if it's the discomfort of growth and change, remember discomfort does not mean danger.
01:10:33.369 --> 01:10:43.130
It's it's new and it feels like danger, but it's just because it's new, not because it's actually dangerous.
01:10:43.289 --> 01:10:46.489
I remember feeling in the beginning many, many, many times.
01:10:46.649 --> 01:10:48.729
I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die, asking for help.
01:10:48.809 --> 01:10:51.050
I'm gonna die, setting a boundary, I'm gonna die.
01:10:51.210 --> 01:10:52.010
What's she gonna think?
01:10:52.090 --> 01:10:53.529
I'm gonna die, and I didn't die.
01:10:53.609 --> 01:10:59.689
And I would actually, me and my step group started saying, I did the thing and I didn't die because we wanted to gather evidence.
01:10:59.849 --> 01:11:04.170
Oh, look, we didn't die many times, and you've never died from any of the things.
01:11:04.409 --> 01:11:05.369
So, you know.
01:11:05.689 --> 01:11:06.010
Perfect.
01:11:06.170 --> 01:11:06.569
I love it.
01:11:06.729 --> 01:11:10.329
Well, thank you so much, Barb, for your time and all of this information.
01:11:10.489 --> 01:11:11.929
It's incredibly helpful.
01:11:12.170 --> 01:11:12.649
Oh good.
01:11:12.729 --> 01:11:14.489
Thank you so much for inviting me.
01:11:14.649 --> 01:11:17.529
Loved your questions, love the work that you're doing.
01:11:17.769 --> 01:11:18.569
Keep it up.
01:11:18.809 --> 01:11:23.130
And, you know, I think you're never too old to change.
01:11:23.449 --> 01:11:28.569
Um, it doesn't matter how dark things seem to you, things can always get better.
01:11:28.649 --> 01:11:35.849
You know, there's a metaphor I learned when I was grieving that it may feel like you're in a cave, but it's not a cave, it's a tunnel.
01:11:36.090 --> 01:11:40.489
You just haven't gone in far enough to see that there's light coming in from the other side.
01:11:40.889 --> 01:11:42.090
I love that.
01:11:43.449 --> 01:11:43.769
Okay.
01:11:44.010 --> 01:11:44.889
Well, thank you again.
01:11:45.050 --> 01:11:45.609
You're welcome.
01:11:45.849 --> 01:11:47.769
Thank you again, Barb, for joining me today.
01:11:47.929 --> 01:11:50.170
And thank you, warriors, for listening.
01:11:50.329 --> 01:11:56.729
I've included the links Barb was referring to, as well as her Beyond the Statistics profile in the show notes.
01:11:56.889 --> 01:11:59.769
I'll be back next week with another episode for you.
01:11:59.929 --> 01:12:01.769
Until then, stay strong.
01:12:01.929 --> 01:12:07.050
And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.
01:12:08.250 --> 01:12:17.529
To learn more, explore episode resources, browse the collections, or register as a guest, visit Beyondthatistics Podcast.com.
01:12:17.849 --> 01:12:22.569
If today's episode meant something to you, please share it with someone who may need it.
01:12:22.809 --> 01:12:29.289
Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media.
01:12:29.529 --> 01:12:33.130
Beyond the Statistics is a.5 Panoy production.
01:12:33.369 --> 01:12:36.090
Music written and performed by Tim Crow.