Brian Di Bartolomeo: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Between Here and There. You got Brian here and you got Michael over there. Good morning, good afternoon, Michael. Whatever time it is that you're listening. How you doing today?
Michael Sanders: Hello. I'm doing well. How you doing, Brian? It's good to be back.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Pretty good. I know. We're here. It's real. And today we're going to talk about the messy middle, right? That in-between space,
Michael Sanders: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: which is why we created all that we created. So just kind of set the tone for what we're doing and what we're talking about here today. By the end of our episode today, we want our listeners really to understand what the messy middle is and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: understand they don't necessarily need to rush that. So
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: there's times in our life and we've lived them. And we'll probably live them again where something changes. This may be something
Michael Sanders: Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: where we've made the decision, or the decision was made for us, you know, an end of a relationship, a change of a boundary, change of a direction, whatever it might be. And sometimes nothing happened. And we just realize that you don't recognize the person that you are today. And all that starts to equal the middle. You know where you've been. You just don't know where you're going. And in the moment, we very quickly want to kind of like solve and make a decision and go. And we're going to soon have an episode about responding versus
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: reacting, which is often a key thing that happens here at this messy middle. You know, we want to make sure that we're responding versus not quickly moving on to something. So this might be one of the very clearest examples of why we've created between here and there. There is a here. What was, what you knew, who you were, and there's a there, whatever whatever it is that you're recognizing, talking about what happens while we're there, and maybe learning how we be with ourselves a little differently for the next part of whatever that path reveals. So Michael, turning to you, let's
Michael Sanders: Yes.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: talk about what is the messy middle? What does it look like? What is it? How do you define it? All those good things.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, I mean it's there I don't think there's a concise definition for it, but it's kind of that in between period where you're you're you know, y you know you wanna make like a fundament fundamental change in life. You know, and tying back to some of the language we used in previous episodes, we kind of talking we talk about this as kind of being the the thrashing time, the thrashing about time. We are kind of You're trying to make things happen or you're trying to become a better version of yourself. and you know, it's not always pretty. It's can be kind of ugly. At least for me, it kind of felt like very a alienating, you know, because you're kind of like,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: you know, again back to that question, like, who am I? You know, because all the the things that I used to identify with don't really resonate anymore, you
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: know, so. For me it was a little bit of a wild ride, you know, during my thrashing about phase, like I for the first time in my life I kind of had like less interest in music and playing guitar and being in band and all that stuff. And that was kind of like a fundamental part of what I enjoyed and who who I thought I was. so you know, you have that feeling of alienation because you're kind of ostracized from the things that you once connected with and no longer do. you know, so so that's something that I definitely remember from the the messy middle. And you know, we call it the messy middle because it's messy. It's real messy. You know, like maybe some
Brian Di Bartolomeo: It is.
Michael Sanders: of us maybe some of us navigate the middle part better than others, but I I'm not sure I was particularly good at it or bad, but you know, it's thrashing about. You make a mess. And then hopefully you come out a little bit tidier and cleaner on the other side.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: There was a I mentioned on one of the episodes that I went to a a retreat in Big Sur, and there was this book about. A butterfly.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And I remember reading it, and I was like, this is exactly what I'm going through. So I'm going to borrow from that book to just kind of use an analogy for us. So we
Michael Sanders: Sure.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: have this beautiful, cute little, fuzzy little caterpillar that's kind of walking along, living his life, loving his life, their life, we don't know. and all of a sudden, that little guy moves into a cocoon. No
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: idea what is to become. All that that caterpillar knows is what it was, right? So that
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that really becomes a messy middle. And I've talked to people that are in the middle and I've shared, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be goo. You're not gonna be who you were, you're not gonna be who you're becoming, you're just gonna be this thing or this state or whatever it is.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And you're allowed to be there because something bigger is coming. You know, we know that.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: After you're in that cocoon, you hopefully move on to be this beautiful butterfly and never knowing what you're going to become only until you become it. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: as we talk about both the messy middle and the space between between here and there, I
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: think it's important for us to to delineate that space is really a waiting room.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: It's not a place to live. And
Michael Sanders: Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that's going to be a key thing for our listeners to understand like, are you just staying in this messy middle or this between space? And that has now become your permanency, versus
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: are you taking action to move on? So we've talked a little bit about what it feels like confusion, fear, overwhelmed. There can also be some excitement of there is
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: something bigger and different coming. But at the same time, I think it's important for us to acknowledge that this is a moment of grief. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: we both shared in our stories the similarity of we had this plan, this master plan. And I think most people do, because that's how you live your life. Of where are we going? How are we going to get to it? when all of a sudden everything kind of changes on you, all of a sudden, and you're in that goo section
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: of your life, living the between, there, there is grief.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely some grief, you know, like I said, you know, when you're making some sort of life pivot, oftentimes you find yourself abandoning things that you once kind of identified with or like did bring you contentment, at least at some point in your life. And when you don't when you still have those things and they don't provide the contentment anymore, there's definitely like
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Right.
Michael Sanders: some grief there. And it's kind of like a very I I always go back to the word n alienation again. It's kind of like you feel alienated from something
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: that once like brought you a lot of fulfillment or joy or whatever it might be.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I think alienation is exactly the term. And even taking that further is this loss of identity.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. You you define yourself by all these things that were you.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And when we're grieving, we have, you know, denial. We have a little bargaining to be like, if I do this, I can go back to that, or I can do this. And maybe then this will change that. So talk about not rushing it.
Michael Sanders: So not rushing, you know, I feel like I and most people that are like pivoting where they know it or not. there is some kind of desire to hurry things up. You know, like if I hurry up and whatever succeed in this job or this role or if I hurry up and find a partner and get married or whatever it is, then the you know, I'll be happier sooner in the Pivot will be shorter and I'll be out the other side more quickly. you know, but the universe doesn't really let you rush it as much as you might try. it will unfold at a pace of its own choosing, or or at least to a large degree. the universe gives you exactly what you want, just never when you want it. All right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: You know, so like you'll you'll always get what you want, but you'll get it at a time that's inconvenient, right? Like the the universe never provides things for you conveniently.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: It's never at a time of convenience. It's always like, man, here's this great opportunity or whatever it is, but I'm just not ready to do it right now. universe doesn't really care, right? Like opportunities come when they come. You don't really get to choose
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: when and how they come along.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's true. I think the uncertainty that happens in that between space is important to be with and process. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I'll I'll add a perspective through some of the conversations recently of as people have been reaching out and talking about their pivots with us.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think it's important to share a lot of times we're talking about this linear pivot, right? It's this hey, something's happening or the or this was thrust upon me, and I need to like change and pivot. And then I need to process,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and then I need to change and become who I am in the future. That might be one way in which it works, which is a nice progress from change to understanding to changing again. But in reality
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, I'd say it probably it rarely works like that. Yeah, sometimes but not yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. It does it does. But if you have the opportunity to kind of pause and be in it, great. But there was one conversation I had where it was this urgency of the situation where the person
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: had to get out of what they were in.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And they did. That became their sole focus for the next five months of kind
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: of decoupling the life that they were in and ultimately. finding safety for themselves.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And from the outsider perspective, it was like, okay, that person is done. Right. They've they've pivoted. They did like this big uprooting.
Michael Sanders: See. I actually I would not describe that as a life pivot. I would again describe that as a slice of the life pivot pie, right? Because there
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You got it.
Michael Sanders: are other things like that is probably a a large slice of the pivot pie for that particular person, but it's not the pie. Right? So there's
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. And and now that person is between here or there. Which is so interesting. It's a it's
Michael Sanders: Yeah, right. Is it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: a cool perspective to see how they're they've changed their entire life. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: now they're quote unquote dealing with it and sitting with it
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and understanding it. And it's manifesting in these beautiful ways that they're processing, even though everything's behind them. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think that's a good good thing to bring up here is it's not always linear and may have to happen in a nonlinear way.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was talking to my friend earlier this week and, you know, he's you know, he we've always been talking about the the concept of pivoting or just doing some something fundamentally different or like burning down the house you thought you loved or like all all that
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: kind of stuff. And like, you know, he just decided to make the decision that he was effectively like not fully pivoting out of his life right now and just kind of pivoting to a new opportunity that is maybe A little bit better, but it's still kind of the same trajectory or a similar one. and you know, that's part of the process too, right? Like you don't successfully pivot at your first at bat, you know, at your first attempt or whatever. And sometimes, you know, you're not ready to make a huge shift. so you kind of just kind of stay at maybe a incrementally better version of what you were doing before, but that's still progress, right? So I don't want folks to ever feel like they're they're failing at their own pivot because you know sometimes they need to take a break or sometimes they need to ground and
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: or the just realities of life where they're like, I just need to make a I have to support myself. So I need some income. So I'm gonna continue
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: doing this thing or whatever. You know, it it's incremental improvements. It's not linear or it's usually not linear.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Right.
Michael Sanders: so just focus on. Progress made rather than massive shifts.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Agreed. Yeah. So we we've talked a little bit about allowing yourself to be in the space, that it is a waiting room. It's not a place to live.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And very often it can be a a destructive place as well. So that may be that can come in a myriad of different ways, whether that is drugs, alcohol, poor decisions, regretful
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: decisions, things like that. And I think as we we've continue to think of while we're in this space, we do need tools. So let's talk a little bit about like what are the tools? What are the things that you can do for yourself and also recognizing that when when you're feeling overwhelmed or too much, you know, you do want to seek help, whether that is a clinical therapist, if you're feeling depression or things like that, or a coach, depending on where you are
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: in the process. I think we had a a structure of like body, things for your body,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: people that are around you, a practice,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: your general life, and a routine.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, I mean for sure all those things are useful. You know, I I've always when we talk about these things, I always come back to at least my own yoga and meditation practice, really helpful. I think another tool that maybe doesn't go recognized as much as it should is space, right? Like giving yourself some space, like some physical space, like if you're always surrounded by a bazillion people all the time, like Go walk in the woods by yourself for a little bit or something like that, or in a park or whatever you have access to. you know, and also there's just like the headspace and emotional space to which is necessary
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: to foster introspection. you know, and that's another key thing about getting out of the messy middle. You know, you're gonna have to do a lot of inward exploration. you know, again, like coaches and things like all that, they can give you tools, they can certainly help. They're not None of them are gonna give you the answer. those answers are within and you've gotta do the internal inward journey to to kind of reveal them to yourself and space is necessary to do that.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I think when we think of like body and mind, to your point, it's like get out of the house or wherever you're at,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: move, walk. It could be as simple as that, or or understanding the things that maybe bring you joy, even though joy
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: might seem so far away, but it's understanding what those things are, eating, sleeping, like those basic needs.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And also when we think of people, and I mentioned this in in one of my stories was talking to people, like having those
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: true confidants where you can say, Hey, I need you. I actually need you to kind of
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: show up a little bit more than normal, I found journaling to be a really
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: helpful thing for me. I would write in a journal and
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I would close it and I would never look at it again. But it made
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: my thoughts come to life, some kind of like free form writing. So, same thing there. It could just be sitting quietly just Hearing and listening, what's going through your mind, you don't need to act on it.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, I guess why what did you get out of journaling? Like why was that helpful for you?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I would do a couple things. I would do the free free form of just
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: like what are the thoughts in my head? And I would write them down and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: See them and move on. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: then the other things I would do would be very specific questions. So as I kind of continue through my journey, there would be specific questions that I was asking myself of
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: like, who am I? And I'd start to write and I'd be like, No, that's not it. That's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: not it. and just allowing myself the space to do it without judgment. I think that was
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: a key for me of letting it flow. Whatever it is, it is. It's not right, it's not wrong. It's truly coming from my brain, out of my hand,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: into the pen. So those were kind of tools that help me process essentially.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I would often journal and then go hike in the woods or something around the area, which
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: was a nice way for me to kind of continue to process and be out of the home as well.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe another tool that I'm not sure we've talked about, but as we're speaking now, it kind of clicked for me. Is it's it's good to create, right? It's
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: good to do something creative, right? And that doesn't need to be, you know, because I'm sure like a lot of people are like, I'm not a fine artist, I can't paint, or like whatever it is, or they or they think that they're creative. output needs to accumulate to something. Like I I'd need
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Hm. Right.
Michael Sanders: to write a song, but if my song doesn't blow up on TikTok, then it's not it's not fulfilling
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Not worth it, yeah.
Michael Sanders: then, you know, but it's really just the act of doing something creative. The act of creating is very
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: much a cathartic exercise. Like I know my wife, she likes to macro me, right? You know, put on the headphones and just do something with her hands for a half hour or whatever
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: it is. And she always feels better after she does it, but like ironically, like many people, if not most people, she probably doesn't do it enough, right? And actually just doing something with your hands and watching it come,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: you know. Watching them materialize in front of you is is important and in
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: just being alive.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I it's as we're talking, I'm remembering. So the thing that I did was sourdough bread. right. That was my thing. I remember
Michael Sanders: yeah, see, there you go. Yeah, be a baker.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I was like, I'm gonna get into this. And I was baking bread that didn't even look like bread at certain points. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I was like, this is it's challenging. And then I I got into cinnamon rolls with the sourdough. So
Michael Sanders: No, yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it was like this, I would listen to Ram Das that was aligned with where I was going and a little more uplifting and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: doing something creative or something that was very different that I normally wouldn't do was pretty cool.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And I I think the that brings me to routine.
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Routine was a big thing and I I know when I was at the darkest point in my pivot, I didn't have a routine. Late nights, late mornings. Don't judge. No we're no judging.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. that's bad. That's bad mojo. I can tell you that's bad. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you can be in the goo, but don't be there forever. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I realized I was like, this is not good for me. I need to
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: get back to the gym and wake up
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: early, go to bed, and and I'm a
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: routine guy. So that helped me kind of establish a
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, and I think for yeah, I think for some people routine may sound like maybe too much like a of a clinical word or something, or you know, but like a another word that effectively describes the same thing you're talking about as ritual. You know, have have your own morning ritual or evening ritual or whatever it is. You know, have these things that keep you kind of anchored and grounded and are good for you. Right. Ha like
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: having
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Healthy. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: toxic over destructive rituals are not helpful, you know. I mean
Brian Di Bartolomeo: 'Cause they will they will appear. Like we gotta be real with that. That definitely was part of
Michael Sanders: Mm. Yeah, absolutely.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: many people's pivots and
Michael Sanders: Yeah. I mean, especially I mean, just think of people that struggle with substance abuse. I mean, some of its appeal is the ritual of doing drugs, you know. I mean
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: you you all that kind of stuff, it you know, it kind of fills a void that we all have.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the the final thing that I would add is as you're in this middle and it's messy and you're going through
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: all these things that we said, it's still your life. And I think that's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: important. And it was a realization for me as well, where I was like, my God, this is insurmountable. It's so heavy. How do I get out of this?
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And it was, I knew I had to make decisions, and they were like these big decisions that then had ramifications and them more decisions. And so
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the the one step at a time definitely helped. But being aware of like this is my life, these years that I'm spending
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: here are years that I'm not going to get back.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And we I talked about this as well in one of the episodes. You know, I'm stealing from myself.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: by knowing I need to make this change and shift and not allowing myself to do it. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: just being aware that even though you're at this in-between moment, this is still your life.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. It's still your life, it's still your time and you never get back time, right? And the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: big epiphany for me was I just got to the point where I'm like, I'm not deferring my life anymore. I'm not gonna defer it for for later. If there is if I wanna take a step back and just have a more fulfilling life and lifestyle, I'm doing it now. Like the the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I love it.
Michael Sanders: the time to wait is over. So that's exactly. Yeah. And there's always
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And no one else is gonna do it for you, right? Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: gonna be a reason not to do it, like, if I stay here at a Another six months, I don't know, my stock will best
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: as an employee and like I'll make more money or and then it'll be easier to step back. Yeah, there's always like the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And that's the bargaining, right? It says making the d making if I do this, then this will happen in reality. You know that this is not the thing that you should or want to do. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: Yep. Yep.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Well, maybe you are listening to this and you're in the messy middle right now. Something ended, something's beginning. Maybe you've made a decision but haven't figured out how to live yet. Or maybe you just know something needs to change. You don't have to have the whole path and plan today, just making the next step is really all that you need to focus in on. So maybe the messy middle isn't asking you to figure it out, allowing yourself to kind of be here in the moment. And so as we close, we're gonna leave you with two questions, just kind of taking a few minutes for yourself to ask these questions, really reflect on them, sit with them. And the first one is is what do I already know? So, like these are what
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: are the truths that I know, and just knowing those. Maybe you want to write them down, maybe you want to text them to yourself, whatever it might be. But understanding the the whole truths is going to be helpful as you start to process. And then, kind of as I said, what is the next step I can take for today? Doesn't need to be on the whole path, doesn't need to be the final steps that you're going to take completely, but understanding that one little thing that you're going to do is gonna be pretty powerful. So, if this episode brought something up for you, we'd love to hear from you. What does a messy middle look like for you? Maybe you want to share that. Maybe you want to comment on socials, or you want to send us a direct message with some questions or thoughts on something we covered here. But just remember this is a waiting room. You're still living your life. And continue listening. More to come soon. Thank you, Michael.
Michael Sanders: Thanks, Brian.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You're welcome.
Michael Sanders: Hello. I'm doing well. How you doing, Brian? It's good to be back.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Pretty good. I know. We're here. It's real. And today we're going to talk about the messy middle, right? That in-between space,
Michael Sanders: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: which is why we created all that we created. So just kind of set the tone for what we're doing and what we're talking about here today. By the end of our episode today, we want our listeners really to understand what the messy middle is and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: understand they don't necessarily need to rush that. So
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: there's times in our life and we've lived them. And we'll probably live them again where something changes. This may be something
Michael Sanders: Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: where we've made the decision, or the decision was made for us, you know, an end of a relationship, a change of a boundary, change of a direction, whatever it might be. And sometimes nothing happened. And we just realize that you don't recognize the person that you are today. And all that starts to equal the middle. You know where you've been. You just don't know where you're going. And in the moment, we very quickly want to kind of like solve and make a decision and go. And we're going to soon have an episode about responding versus
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: reacting, which is often a key thing that happens here at this messy middle. You know, we want to make sure that we're responding versus not quickly moving on to something. So this might be one of the very clearest examples of why we've created between here and there. There is a here. What was, what you knew, who you were, and there's a there, whatever whatever it is that you're recognizing, talking about what happens while we're there, and maybe learning how we be with ourselves a little differently for the next part of whatever that path reveals. So Michael, turning to you, let's
Michael Sanders: Yes.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: talk about what is the messy middle? What does it look like? What is it? How do you define it? All those good things.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, I mean it's there I don't think there's a concise definition for it, but it's kind of that in between period where you're you're you know, y you know you wanna make like a fundament fundamental change in life. You know, and tying back to some of the language we used in previous episodes, we kind of talking we talk about this as kind of being the the thrashing time, the thrashing about time. We are kind of You're trying to make things happen or you're trying to become a better version of yourself. and you know, it's not always pretty. It's can be kind of ugly. At least for me, it kind of felt like very a alienating, you know, because you're kind of like,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: you know, again back to that question, like, who am I? You know, because all the the things that I used to identify with don't really resonate anymore, you
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: know, so. For me it was a little bit of a wild ride, you know, during my thrashing about phase, like I for the first time in my life I kind of had like less interest in music and playing guitar and being in band and all that stuff. And that was kind of like a fundamental part of what I enjoyed and who who I thought I was. so you know, you have that feeling of alienation because you're kind of ostracized from the things that you once connected with and no longer do. you know, so so that's something that I definitely remember from the the messy middle. And you know, we call it the messy middle because it's messy. It's real messy. You know, like maybe some
Brian Di Bartolomeo: It is.
Michael Sanders: of us maybe some of us navigate the middle part better than others, but I I'm not sure I was particularly good at it or bad, but you know, it's thrashing about. You make a mess. And then hopefully you come out a little bit tidier and cleaner on the other side.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: There was a I mentioned on one of the episodes that I went to a a retreat in Big Sur, and there was this book about. A butterfly.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And I remember reading it, and I was like, this is exactly what I'm going through. So I'm going to borrow from that book to just kind of use an analogy for us. So we
Michael Sanders: Sure.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: have this beautiful, cute little, fuzzy little caterpillar that's kind of walking along, living his life, loving his life, their life, we don't know. and all of a sudden, that little guy moves into a cocoon. No
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: idea what is to become. All that that caterpillar knows is what it was, right? So that
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that really becomes a messy middle. And I've talked to people that are in the middle and I've shared, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be goo. You're not gonna be who you were, you're not gonna be who you're becoming, you're just gonna be this thing or this state or whatever it is.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And you're allowed to be there because something bigger is coming. You know, we know that.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: After you're in that cocoon, you hopefully move on to be this beautiful butterfly and never knowing what you're going to become only until you become it. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: as we talk about both the messy middle and the space between between here and there, I
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: think it's important for us to to delineate that space is really a waiting room.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: It's not a place to live. And
Michael Sanders: Right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: that's going to be a key thing for our listeners to understand like, are you just staying in this messy middle or this between space? And that has now become your permanency, versus
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: are you taking action to move on? So we've talked a little bit about what it feels like confusion, fear, overwhelmed. There can also be some excitement of there is
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: something bigger and different coming. But at the same time, I think it's important for us to acknowledge that this is a moment of grief. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: we both shared in our stories the similarity of we had this plan, this master plan. And I think most people do, because that's how you live your life. Of where are we going? How are we going to get to it? when all of a sudden everything kind of changes on you, all of a sudden, and you're in that goo section
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: of your life, living the between, there, there is grief.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely some grief, you know, like I said, you know, when you're making some sort of life pivot, oftentimes you find yourself abandoning things that you once kind of identified with or like did bring you contentment, at least at some point in your life. And when you don't when you still have those things and they don't provide the contentment anymore, there's definitely like
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Right.
Michael Sanders: some grief there. And it's kind of like a very I I always go back to the word n alienation again. It's kind of like you feel alienated from something
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: that once like brought you a lot of fulfillment or joy or whatever it might be.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I think alienation is exactly the term. And even taking that further is this loss of identity.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. You you define yourself by all these things that were you.
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And when we're grieving, we have, you know, denial. We have a little bargaining to be like, if I do this, I can go back to that, or I can do this. And maybe then this will change that. So talk about not rushing it.
Michael Sanders: So not rushing, you know, I feel like I and most people that are like pivoting where they know it or not. there is some kind of desire to hurry things up. You know, like if I hurry up and whatever succeed in this job or this role or if I hurry up and find a partner and get married or whatever it is, then the you know, I'll be happier sooner in the Pivot will be shorter and I'll be out the other side more quickly. you know, but the universe doesn't really let you rush it as much as you might try. it will unfold at a pace of its own choosing, or or at least to a large degree. the universe gives you exactly what you want, just never when you want it. All right.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: You know, so like you'll you'll always get what you want, but you'll get it at a time that's inconvenient, right? Like the the universe never provides things for you conveniently.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: It's never at a time of convenience. It's always like, man, here's this great opportunity or whatever it is, but I'm just not ready to do it right now. universe doesn't really care, right? Like opportunities come when they come. You don't really get to choose
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right.
Michael Sanders: when and how they come along.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's true. I think the uncertainty that happens in that between space is important to be with and process. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I'll I'll add a perspective through some of the conversations recently of as people have been reaching out and talking about their pivots with us.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think it's important to share a lot of times we're talking about this linear pivot, right? It's this hey, something's happening or the or this was thrust upon me, and I need to like change and pivot. And then I need to process,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and then I need to change and become who I am in the future. That might be one way in which it works, which is a nice progress from change to understanding to changing again. But in reality
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, I'd say it probably it rarely works like that. Yeah, sometimes but not yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. It does it does. But if you have the opportunity to kind of pause and be in it, great. But there was one conversation I had where it was this urgency of the situation where the person
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: had to get out of what they were in.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And they did. That became their sole focus for the next five months of kind
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: of decoupling the life that they were in and ultimately. finding safety for themselves.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And from the outsider perspective, it was like, okay, that person is done. Right. They've they've pivoted. They did like this big uprooting.
Michael Sanders: See. I actually I would not describe that as a life pivot. I would again describe that as a slice of the life pivot pie, right? Because there
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You got it.
Michael Sanders: are other things like that is probably a a large slice of the pivot pie for that particular person, but it's not the pie. Right? So there's
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. And and now that person is between here or there. Which is so interesting. It's a it's
Michael Sanders: Yeah, right. Is it
Brian Di Bartolomeo: a cool perspective to see how they're they've changed their entire life. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: now they're quote unquote dealing with it and sitting with it
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: and understanding it. And it's manifesting in these beautiful ways that they're processing, even though everything's behind them. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I think that's a good good thing to bring up here is it's not always linear and may have to happen in a nonlinear way.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was talking to my friend earlier this week and, you know, he's you know, he we've always been talking about the the concept of pivoting or just doing some something fundamentally different or like burning down the house you thought you loved or like all all that
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Uh-huh.
Michael Sanders: kind of stuff. And like, you know, he just decided to make the decision that he was effectively like not fully pivoting out of his life right now and just kind of pivoting to a new opportunity that is maybe A little bit better, but it's still kind of the same trajectory or a similar one. and you know, that's part of the process too, right? Like you don't successfully pivot at your first at bat, you know, at your first attempt or whatever. And sometimes, you know, you're not ready to make a huge shift. so you kind of just kind of stay at maybe a incrementally better version of what you were doing before, but that's still progress, right? So I don't want folks to ever feel like they're they're failing at their own pivot because you know sometimes they need to take a break or sometimes they need to ground and
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: or the just realities of life where they're like, I just need to make a I have to support myself. So I need some income. So I'm gonna continue
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: doing this thing or whatever. You know, it it's incremental improvements. It's not linear or it's usually not linear.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Right.
Michael Sanders: so just focus on. Progress made rather than massive shifts.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Agreed. Yeah. So we we've talked a little bit about allowing yourself to be in the space, that it is a waiting room. It's not a place to live.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And very often it can be a a destructive place as well. So that may be that can come in a myriad of different ways, whether that is drugs, alcohol, poor decisions, regretful
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: decisions, things like that. And I think as we we've continue to think of while we're in this space, we do need tools. So let's talk a little bit about like what are the tools? What are the things that you can do for yourself and also recognizing that when when you're feeling overwhelmed or too much, you know, you do want to seek help, whether that is a clinical therapist, if you're feeling depression or things like that, or a coach, depending on where you are
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: in the process. I think we had a a structure of like body, things for your body,
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: people that are around you, a practice,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: your general life, and a routine.
Michael Sanders: Yeah, I mean for sure all those things are useful. You know, I I've always when we talk about these things, I always come back to at least my own yoga and meditation practice, really helpful. I think another tool that maybe doesn't go recognized as much as it should is space, right? Like giving yourself some space, like some physical space, like if you're always surrounded by a bazillion people all the time, like Go walk in the woods by yourself for a little bit or something like that, or in a park or whatever you have access to. you know, and also there's just like the headspace and emotional space to which is necessary
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: to foster introspection. you know, and that's another key thing about getting out of the messy middle. You know, you're gonna have to do a lot of inward exploration. you know, again, like coaches and things like all that, they can give you tools, they can certainly help. They're not None of them are gonna give you the answer. those answers are within and you've gotta do the internal inward journey to to kind of reveal them to yourself and space is necessary to do that.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I think when we think of like body and mind, to your point, it's like get out of the house or wherever you're at,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: move, walk. It could be as simple as that, or or understanding the things that maybe bring you joy, even though joy
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: might seem so far away, but it's understanding what those things are, eating, sleeping, like those basic needs.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And also when we think of people, and I mentioned this in in one of my stories was talking to people, like having those
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: true confidants where you can say, Hey, I need you. I actually need you to kind of
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: show up a little bit more than normal, I found journaling to be a really
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: helpful thing for me. I would write in a journal and
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I would close it and I would never look at it again. But it made
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: my thoughts come to life, some kind of like free form writing. So, same thing there. It could just be sitting quietly just Hearing and listening, what's going through your mind, you don't need to act on it.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, I guess why what did you get out of journaling? Like why was that helpful for you?
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I I would do a couple things. I would do the free free form of just
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: like what are the thoughts in my head? And I would write them down and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: See them and move on. And
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: then the other things I would do would be very specific questions. So as I kind of continue through my journey, there would be specific questions that I was asking myself of
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: like, who am I? And I'd start to write and I'd be like, No, that's not it. That's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: not it. and just allowing myself the space to do it without judgment. I think that was
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: a key for me of letting it flow. Whatever it is, it is. It's not right, it's not wrong. It's truly coming from my brain, out of my hand,
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: into the pen. So those were kind of tools that help me process essentially.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I would often journal and then go hike in the woods or something around the area, which
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: was a nice way for me to kind of continue to process and be out of the home as well.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe another tool that I'm not sure we've talked about, but as we're speaking now, it kind of clicked for me. Is it's it's good to create, right? It's
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm.
Michael Sanders: good to do something creative, right? And that doesn't need to be, you know, because I'm sure like a lot of people are like, I'm not a fine artist, I can't paint, or like whatever it is, or they or they think that they're creative. output needs to accumulate to something. Like I I'd need
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Hm. Right.
Michael Sanders: to write a song, but if my song doesn't blow up on TikTok, then it's not it's not fulfilling
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Not worth it, yeah.
Michael Sanders: then, you know, but it's really just the act of doing something creative. The act of creating is very
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: much a cathartic exercise. Like I know my wife, she likes to macro me, right? You know, put on the headphones and just do something with her hands for a half hour or whatever
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: it is. And she always feels better after she does it, but like ironically, like many people, if not most people, she probably doesn't do it enough, right? And actually just doing something with your hands and watching it come,
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: you know. Watching them materialize in front of you is is important and in
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: just being alive.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I it's as we're talking, I'm remembering. So the thing that I did was sourdough bread. right. That was my thing. I remember
Michael Sanders: yeah, see, there you go. Yeah, be a baker.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I was like, I'm gonna get into this. And I was baking bread that didn't even look like bread at certain points. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I was like, this is it's challenging. And then I I got into cinnamon rolls with the sourdough. So
Michael Sanders: No, yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: it was like this, I would listen to Ram Das that was aligned with where I was going and a little more uplifting and
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: doing something creative or something that was very different that I normally wouldn't do was pretty cool.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And I I think the that brings me to routine.
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Routine was a big thing and I I know when I was at the darkest point in my pivot, I didn't have a routine. Late nights, late mornings. Don't judge. No we're no judging.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm. that's bad. That's bad mojo. I can tell you that's bad. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: you can be in the goo, but don't be there forever. And
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: I realized I was like, this is not good for me. I need to
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: get back to the gym and wake up
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: early, go to bed, and and I'm a
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: routine guy. So that helped me kind of establish a
Michael Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, and I think for yeah, I think for some people routine may sound like maybe too much like a of a clinical word or something, or you know, but like a another word that effectively describes the same thing you're talking about as ritual. You know, have have your own morning ritual or evening ritual or whatever it is. You know, have these things that keep you kind of anchored and grounded and are good for you. Right. Ha like
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: having
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Healthy. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: toxic over destructive rituals are not helpful, you know. I mean
Brian Di Bartolomeo: 'Cause they will they will appear. Like we gotta be real with that. That definitely was part of
Michael Sanders: Mm. Yeah, absolutely.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: many people's pivots and
Michael Sanders: Yeah. I mean, especially I mean, just think of people that struggle with substance abuse. I mean, some of its appeal is the ritual of doing drugs, you know. I mean
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Right. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: you you all that kind of stuff, it you know, it kind of fills a void that we all have.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the the final thing that I would add is as you're in this middle and it's messy and you're going through
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: all these things that we said, it's still your life. And I think that's
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: important. And it was a realization for me as well, where I was like, my God, this is insurmountable. It's so heavy. How do I get out of this?
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And it was, I knew I had to make decisions, and they were like these big decisions that then had ramifications and them more decisions. And so
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: the the one step at a time definitely helped. But being aware of like this is my life, these years that I'm spending
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: here are years that I'm not going to get back.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And we I talked about this as well in one of the episodes. You know, I'm stealing from myself.
Michael Sanders: Mm-hmm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: by knowing I need to make this change and shift and not allowing myself to do it. So
Michael Sanders: Yeah.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: just being aware that even though you're at this in-between moment, this is still your life.
Michael Sanders: Yeah. It's still your life, it's still your time and you never get back time, right? And the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: big epiphany for me was I just got to the point where I'm like, I'm not deferring my life anymore. I'm not gonna defer it for for later. If there is if I wanna take a step back and just have a more fulfilling life and lifestyle, I'm doing it now. Like the the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah, I love it.
Michael Sanders: the time to wait is over. So that's exactly. Yeah. And there's always
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And no one else is gonna do it for you, right? Mm-hmm.
Michael Sanders: gonna be a reason not to do it, like, if I stay here at a Another six months, I don't know, my stock will best
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Yeah.
Michael Sanders: as an employee and like I'll make more money or and then it'll be easier to step back. Yeah, there's always like the
Brian Di Bartolomeo: And that's the bargaining, right? It says making the d making if I do this, then this will happen in reality. You know that this is not the thing that you should or want to do. Yeah.
Michael Sanders: Yep. Yep.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: Well, maybe you are listening to this and you're in the messy middle right now. Something ended, something's beginning. Maybe you've made a decision but haven't figured out how to live yet. Or maybe you just know something needs to change. You don't have to have the whole path and plan today, just making the next step is really all that you need to focus in on. So maybe the messy middle isn't asking you to figure it out, allowing yourself to kind of be here in the moment. And so as we close, we're gonna leave you with two questions, just kind of taking a few minutes for yourself to ask these questions, really reflect on them, sit with them. And the first one is is what do I already know? So, like these are what
Michael Sanders: Mm.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: are the truths that I know, and just knowing those. Maybe you want to write them down, maybe you want to text them to yourself, whatever it might be. But understanding the the whole truths is going to be helpful as you start to process. And then, kind of as I said, what is the next step I can take for today? Doesn't need to be on the whole path, doesn't need to be the final steps that you're going to take completely, but understanding that one little thing that you're going to do is gonna be pretty powerful. So, if this episode brought something up for you, we'd love to hear from you. What does a messy middle look like for you? Maybe you want to share that. Maybe you want to comment on socials, or you want to send us a direct message with some questions or thoughts on something we covered here. But just remember this is a waiting room. You're still living your life. And continue listening. More to come soon. Thank you, Michael.
Michael Sanders: Thanks, Brian.
Brian Di Bartolomeo: You're welcome.
