Faith Clarke (00:15)
Hey Sydney,
Welcome to Yes and Otherwise conversation that Becky and I are hosting where we play with the nuance.
you know, in life in our stories and we kind of tease out some of the patterns that we've been living through. So I wanted to start off though with something really silly because I watched a cartoon movie last night. one of my favorite things to do. So I'm wondering, question for all of us, what's your favorite cartoon character that you relate to the most and why?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:46)
this is gonna sound sort of silly, but probably Papa Smurf. Cause I always felt like I know. cause he was like the
I was always told I was wise beyond my years as a kid and all that kind of stuff they do to adultify children. and so I always felt kind of wise like Papa Smurf. So I'll go with him.
Sydney Elaine Butler (01:02)
That's a solid answer.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:03)
Thank you.
Faith Clarke (01:04)
That's kind of cool. Sydney, what do you think?
Sydney Elaine Butler (01:06)
The first thing that came to mind, so I I I'm from Canada and we have I don't know if i if the show was also in because I know like we had shows that were on Cartoon Network and we've had a sho c channel called Teletoon, but I think it was exclusively Canadian programming, but maybe it aired. So the show was called Atomic Betty. And so she goes to school by day, she's a cheerleader at school, and then she goes to space and fights like space villains. Okay.
And she had her sidekicks and I feel like I I feel like Atomic Betty is mine because I am a business owner and I'm founder of an organization and feel like I like there were parts of me, but I feel like I have to show up in a certain way and then when I'm done go back to hanging out with my family, hanging with my dog. So if if my virtual back room does turn turn off, she's right behind me. and just
the duality of wanting to s save the world, change the world, but also live a normal life and really be surrounded by people that I care about and I love.
Faith Clarke (02:08)
That's cool. Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:10)
How about you, Faith?
Faith Clarke (02:11)
Yeah, I I so the movie I watched last night was Hoppers and just
Sydney Elaine Butler (02:16)
Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (02:17)
out. And there's something about the 19-year-old main character. As like if if doing the most was was a person, this would be her. They're just a very
excessive like I must fix this swamp or save the glade or whatever it is and I'm gonna do whatever and I'm gonna go fast. And I don't feel like I'm that way like on the outside, but it feels like something that I have to manage a fair moment. So like
Sydney Elaine Butler (02:43)
Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (02:44)
I'm you know I said I I'm in my 50s and I'm like I'm recovering from doing the most. Can I just not do the most? Can I start in the small ways? I can just let go of the most and just do the minimum or
The middle, you know. So yeah, that that character resonated last night, but I think bigger and maybe similar is Luisa in Encanto. This kind of carry
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:08)
Mm, yeah.
Faith Clarke (03:09)
all the things, I'm strong enough, I'm gorgeous as a strong person,
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (03:13)
the glorification of the you know, the too muchness. And so yeah, I I relate.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:19)
I feel
like I want to revise my answer because I felt very like urgent to
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:23)
pick one. Because I realized now that honestly the character that I most was like that actually almost brought me to tears in a movie and has never happened before was when I watched Inside Out 2 and they had anxiety as a character as one of the feelings.
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:34)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:35)
It was the most accurately I had ever felt portrayed. I was like, that is that's that's my like brain. That's my life.
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:41)
That's what my existence feels like is this whirlwind of thoughts that if I'm not watching it can just become
out of control to the point of like
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:49)
it taking over. So okay, I take it back. Although also sometimes I feel wise, but that feels a little like not full of me.
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:55)
But they I feel like they go hand in hand there, Becky. So
Becky Mollenkamp (03:58)
Maybe you might be right. Maybe that's like at its best it's Papa Smurf, but a lot of times I'm
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:02)
It's a spectrum.
Faith Clarke (04:03)
Underneath.
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:04)
Anxiety, pop a spra
Becky Mollenkamp (04:05)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (04:05)
Yeah.
You know, maybe maybe Papa Smurf has a shadow or maybe Ang
Becky Mollenkamp (04:08)
Yeah, you know, it depends on when
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:09)
Huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:10)
you get me. I'm either Papa Smurf or anxiety. I love that, Faith. Thank you.
Faith Clarke (04:14)
you're welcome. So like when we think about even stories from our childhood or like their themes that seem to occur.
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:21)
Mm mm. Yes.
Faith Clarke (04:23)
so if you're to think about the past, I'd say three to six months.
What's a story that keeps recurring? Maybe a moment in time that has happened, but then you kind of see echoes of it in other places or at other times. So what's something recent that feels like, yeah, it's kind of sticking with you, it's repeating, you find yourself talking about it, or it comes to mind
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:46)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (04:47)
that feels able to be shared.
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:49)
Yeah.
I think it's funny that you talked about like, you know, things in childhood leading in to adulthood. I think a lot recently I've been talking with others about this too. It just as kids we have our innate things that we do. We have th how we show up in the world.
And sometimes the world tries to tear that down. But I think as and I have a circle of it's c we call ourselves the Fempreneurs and we meet once a month and it's a group of female entrepreneurs and we actually met in person last month for the first time, some of us. And we were talking about how things that I was good at as a child actually correlates what to what I'm doing in business. And so I've been really thinking about that and how like in my in in school I would
My parents always told me to help others, right? And so I had difficulty asking for help myself, but I always would help others. And so, and now I help others with disabilities in my career. And I was even doing that back in school. And so thinking a lot about how things kind of come full circle, things are cyclical, and really that the stories can change a little bit, they vary, they have more nuance, they have more
d different details but there's a s a lot of similarities and I think if more people had the chance to really sit with that instead of just you know, it it's expensive out there, but a lot of us are in surviving all over the the state of the world. And I think if a lot of us had the chance to really sit and interact with our inner child or inner teenager that and that's been a lot of what I've been thinking about and talking about and in in my stories recently.
Faith Clarke (06:23)
So what's a moment then in the recent times that made that feel
Sydney Elaine Butler (06:26)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (06:28)
like, that brought that to mind? What's an example experience that
Sydney Elaine Butler (06:31)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (06:31)
kind of made that really big for you?
Sydney Elaine Butler (06:33)
Yeah, so I so I went to this we had this thing called the Canadian Autism Leader Leadership Summit and so I attended that event and then they had their annual general meeting shortly after that and they actually asked me to come speak at the annual general meeting. They met me I met some of the organizing team at that event and it was kind of a full circle moment because
And I was talking to people all of all ages on the autism spectrum, people that aren't on the autism spectrum, et cetera, and they're new individual or not, and just h now finding my voice when as a kid and I was talking about I even talked about some of my experiences that I had as a kid that helps impact how I show up every day and even that then that experience itself was even this moment of being a racialized autistic woman and now being able to speak in front of you all today, I was like this
This is a big deal. We need to keep having diverse voices at the table. And that's one of the most poignant stories.
Faith Clarke (07:28)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:31)
And I know
we didn't give you a right proper introduction as my husband likes to call dinner when
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:33)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:35)
we don't eat a real meal. He'll be like, we haven't had a right proper dinner. We haven't had a right proper introduction. So let me quickly say that you're the founder of Accessible Creates.
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:41)
Mm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:44)
and you're speaking obviously a little bit about your experience and
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:47)
and what that I think it's starting to help people kind of fill in the picture here a little bit about what
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:49)
Mm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:52)
you do. But and and we'll get more into what you do. But I'm curious
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:56)
if you could just tell us a little bit like right now, because
Yes and otherwise, we really want to explore the stories that aren't being told. And so when you
Sydney Elaine Butler (08:03)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:04)
think about like that event you went to or, you know, just the work you've been doing
Sydney Elaine Butler (08:07)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:07)
lately, what's the story that isn't being told in your industry and in the things that you do that you wish was being told?
Sydney Elaine Butler (08:16)
Yeah, I think I kind of just touched the beautiful really the intersectionality pieces. I think so many times people think us to look one way or even like again at that event, they have an award every year that they give to an autistic leader and this was the first year they gave it to a non speaking autistic individual. And that was a big deal. And we were all crying in the room as it happened, but it just like representation and intersectionality matters. But even when it comes to disability work, when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion,
We n this still so much in silos and not really looking at it from the intersectional perspective. We all have diverse identities, you know, and how like I'm a dogma, my dog's behind me, like I keep mentioning. I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, all these different things. I'm a founder, like I've all these different things that make me who I am. Okay, like, you know, these parts are often so often ignored and needs to really be understood okay, how
How is someone showing up in these spaces? Do they feel safe to bring their whole self to the table? Or is it, you know, they only bring one part of them or some parts of them? And that's not true intersectionality when someone can't bring their whole self to the table.
Faith Clarke (09:25)
And what's been what do you think's been challenging thinking back about childhood or even now when
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:32)
you look at your whole self? Like sometimes we get for me, it's okay
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:36)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:37)
for me to be an immigrant woman. there's some
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:39)
Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (09:40)
places where that's that shows a certain kind of work ethic.
But then an immigrant woman who's mother of kids who have complex needs, no, that's a person to be avoided because she won't be able to. You know, there's way that once you
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:51)
Mm. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (09:53)
start to try to be your full self, it comes
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:57)
with some identities get more pushback than others. So what's
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:59)
Yes. Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (10:00)
a story that maybe you've lived in that captures some of the places where some identities were?
preferred or want you wanted the people wanted them silenced or and how you navigated
Sydney Elaine Butler (10:13)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (10:14)
that.
Sydney Elaine Butler (10:14)
Yeah, so I I'm biracial. So my mom is from Guyana is black, and my dad is from the UK and he's white. And so I'm biracial. And so being in spaces in black spaces with like they ignore the whiteness of me and vice versa. When I'm in white spaces, I have to people ignore the black side of me. And so that's I'm like, no, I'm biracial. I make it very clear that I'm biracial. and for the most part, but sometimes for my safety, I do have to
go with what you know, where I am and it's frustrating but it's the s it's the reality that I live in and understanding that a lot of times even though now I f the there we do have a charity here called the Shared Community Foundation, which is for black disabled Canadians. But until that space I felt like I was either like I had to go into my black community or be in a disabled community but I couldn't
be my full self and that was very frustrating and felt like like you were saying, Faith, like some parts have to be subdued. What does that look like? And I think and sometimes it's just instinctual and it's survival mechanism and it you know, and you don't I sometimes I don't even realize I'm doing it and then after I'm like, wait, what? Like, you know, and a after I reflect how this promise to reflect back. And
And then I get kind of frustrated myself like I'm such a proponent for intersectionality and you know, owning that and like recognizing my oppressions, recognizing my privileges at the same time, because both can coexist,
Faith Clarke (11:42)
Right.
Sydney Elaine Butler (11:42)
but recognizing that society if society sees you or people see you in a certain way, you're not being malicious by ignoring those other parts of you. You just you do what you have to do for survival. Like I also identify as non-binary, so I prefer they slash them pronouns.
But sometimes in my safety for my safety in black communities especially, sometimes they don't really understand, or it sometimes it takes a while for them to understand. Like obviously sometimes in the white communities can be the same thing, but or even with disability, it's I have to not omit but subdue that part of me or not like I'm like, okay, I sh I use she slash her pronouns. Meanwhile, I prefer they slash them pronouns and just recognizing it, I think it all comes back to safety in that safety aspect and how safe you feel.
And you know, if you're your first time in a space and you're getting to know people, you don't know, you're just trying to figure things out and as you feel more comfortable, as you feel more safe, you can kinda let those guards down.
Faith Clarke (12:41)
Yeah, yeah. And I think we carry our stories from other spaces. So it it takes a minute
Sydney Elaine Butler (12:45)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (12:47)
to build the trust in a space that, maybe this part
Sydney Elaine Butler (12:49)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (12:50)
of me can be seen. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:51)
I just literally last night finished reading Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria by Beverly Daniel Tatum. I wanted to make sure I got the name right,
Sydney Elaine Butler (12:59)
Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:00)
so I just looked at it. and it's just so interesting because you know, obviously my lived experience is gonna be very different than both of yours, because as the book was talking about, white people in in the US, probably also in Canada, I would expect, in North America,
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:15)
have a have it being a part of sort of the majority identity.
Becomes considered the norm, right? And I'm using air quotes for people who are listening because
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:24)
obviously that's not the case, but that becomes sort of seen as the identity, right? And everything else becomes the
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:31)
the difference from the identity. And this book was really great at
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:35)
talking a lot about that and how white folks often don't see themselves as having a race component to their lives, a race culture or a race identity. And so when
And I thought about that. I was like, you it's so true that when I have thought about who am I, I've almost always led with woman first. That's the thing, probably because that's
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:54)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:54)
an identity that has always felt maybe the most marginalized, right? So I experience that as something that is seen as other than the set point.
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:04)
but never white was never a thing that I thought of. And when I think about what is white culture, it was always very challenging for me to understand
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:11)
what that meant. And so this book was, even though I've
I've studied a lot of this stuff over many years now. And I and I've thought a lot about intersectionality. I hadn't really considered as much around that by the biracial, mixed race,
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:21)
Mm mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:22)
whatever the terms are that people prefer because she talks about that too.
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:26)
And and some of those challenges, and it was interesting, it's it brought up some of the same things, exactly what you're speaking to. She speaks in this book around depending on the environment, some of it was.
Where were you you know, the fo like folks who ha may have had a white parent and a black parent and were raised in a white environment might lean in more to identifying as with that part of their identity because
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:46)
Well, even
like me and my br I have a brother, right? And I think he identifies more with his British roots and that aspect. And I feel like I relate to both, but if I had to choose, even though like you don't have to choose, 'cause we're literally both,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:01)
Right.
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:01)
I would say I identify more with black black culture, right? And so and I think even just
And then he's a bit fairer skinned than I am, and you know, there's so many nuances and I think a lot of
Becky Mollenkamp (15:14)
Yeah.
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:15)
people miss that piece.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:17)
Yeah. Well, and then you've there's this other layer here too around neurodiversity, autism, you know, which
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:22)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:25)
I think you you said you were autistic. We haven't actually taught I mean you've been mentioning we
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:27)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:28)
haven't talked about it per se. So adding that into all of that sort of it's like this
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:33)
equation of like I and it feels like society wants to take these complicated layers that make who we are and try to flatten it down into almost like you
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:42)
Yeah, this squash.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:43)
get the
Yeah, and you gotta pick one, like out of the scrab bags of things that make you who you
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:46)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:48)
are. And it feels like what you're talking about is like how do we create spaces? And in your case, I think it's work spaces, primarily where you're focusing your work
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:57)
that that take that collapsed experience and try to sort of expand it back open like a an accordion to say all of those things get to exist
Sydney Elaine Butler (16:01)
Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:05)
here. But I'm what is what is different when we do that? And and not just the how we do it, because we can talk about that if if
Sydney Elaine Butler (16:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:12)
we want to go there, but like
What does that change when we allow instead of trying to collapse people down, when we say, let's expand it open and say all the parts of you are equally important here?
Sydney Elaine Butler (16:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think you get when you squash down, you get a version of the person that you're kind of expecting. But when you can open it up and make more of an according, like you were saying, Becky, I think you get so much more of the person's rich experience. You get to understand different parts of them and w again why they do what they do, how why they're showing up the way they're showing up, what makes them do what they do, right? And I think
that it's so overlooked and I think I th I and I th I don't like sometimes I think it was intentional to again squash those identities, squash those different parts of people, but I think it just
It's kind of just repetitive in the this the systems that are created created led to that, right? And not understanding the impact it's gonna have on diverse people. And that includes like you like you said, you identify as a woman first. That's a huge part of your identity because of the oppression piece, right? And so and how is society who who is society deeming important and the hierarchy and what that what does that look like? And I think that
plays a huge role in how the the collapsing and not understanding people's full identities comes into place.
Faith Clarke (17:41)
I think of the things that always comes back to me, I remember when my son, who who also he's a
Sydney Elaine Butler (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (17:46)
non-speaking autistic adult now,
Sydney Elaine Butler (17:49)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (17:50)
and black bodied, you know, so
Sydney Elaine Butler (17:52)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (17:52)
all the things that come with that. but when we were in elementary school or I think it was kindergarten, and I was understanding all the the teaching methodologies that they were using in his special school.
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:03)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:04)
I was like, why aren't we using this with all the kids? There's something so powerful. When we when we create these separate spaces for people that align with their identities, what what I think also happens is that we we develop approaches and techniques and decision-making
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:24)
Mm, yeah.
Faith Clarke (18:25)
strategies and and innovation that's specific to those
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:28)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:29)
people that really is riches and gold for everyone.
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:33)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:33)
I was like, why, why isn't everyone using these manipulatives for math? Why isn't
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:39)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:39)
everyone? And so there's a a part of me when I when I am thinking about all three of my kids are newer variants in some
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:45)
Mm, mm.
Faith Clarke (18:46)
way. I like what if the world, what if it was more deli style?
where all of the riches for every identity
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:53)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:54)
exists and is available for all of us to benefit from. And so
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:59)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (19:00)
so why what we do when we kind of center one identity is that we trim everything down so that we have no we have no we have no nuance, we have no innovation.
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:10)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (19:11)
It's just this one white wall.
when really
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:14)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (19:15)
there could be so much more as we give
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:18)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (19:19)
space for all of our identities. What do you think people need to understand that's getting in their way of making space for all of our identities?
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:29)
I think the biggest thing is that people really don't want to look at either side of the the they don't want to look at their privileges and they don't want to look at their oppressions. Because we all as human beings have face both. No one is exempt from it, right? And and I think people
Like we all like I'm like I like even when I was speaking at the that annual general meeting that I was talking about earlier, I recognized my privilege in that space to I was like, Yes, I have my lived experience, but I was like, Who else isn't at the table? Right? And I think that's what's so often missing, that we don't I think people don't want to be uncomfortable and they don't want to kinda I hate that quote, the bite the hand that feeds you kinda quote. But like really and not understanding that
Again, where do I fit into this? Where who's n again, who's not the table? What whose voices are missing? What and like you were saying, Faith, like it helps why doesn't why don't we do this for everyone? Or like, excuse me, why what's why is the the way we do things the standard way standard way of doing things? Why is that the expectation? Why that lack of innovation? We know innovation.
is what drives so many things. But why is there we praising innovation in some aspects, in some aspects it's frowned upon and disencouraged?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:52)
I I love that you're at the both of you with what you're saying there around this like under No,
Sydney Elaine Butler (20:58)
I'll be right back. My dog wants to be let out now.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:00)
you're fine. This understanding of adding other people to the table, the additional perspectives it brings, but the innovation that can come from that, the ways that it can help everyone at the table. I think
Sydney Elaine Butler (21:13)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14)
dominant culture.
And I think part of the problem is that dominant culture is looking at bringing everyone to the table as an act of generosity, as like a kindness that's
Sydney Elaine Butler (21:25)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:26)
being extended, as a something that they're doing to as like, well, we'll do that to help others, right? Like there's this like when it's happening,
Sydney Elaine Butler (21:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:35)
it feels as
Faith Clarke (21:35)
Safe or complex still.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:36)
exactly. It's this like, we're doing this for you. And I just love this like, how do we shift that?
thinking to help people understand because I again we've seen it when women are included at the table, outcomes are better. And it's not just because it's women, but it's because there are more perspectives that widen the perspective and create better outcomes. And why wouldn't that also then extend to every other sort of identity? But how do we help reframe that for people to get them to see that instead of it being like this thing that we do because it's like
the quote unquote right thing to do. But actually it benefits us too. Because I think ultimately, like that framing, as much as we may not
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:20)
like it in the world we live in, like people want
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:22)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:22)
to feel like, what am I getting out of this? Right? Because otherwise it becomes this nice to do thing when we have time, when we have money, when we whatever. But if it's like, no, there's an actual benefit to unfortunately in capitalism, your bottom line,
People are gonna be more likely to take action. So I just love the framing that you're both bringing of like, it's not like there's better outcomes for everyone at the table
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:45)
when everyone's at the table. I don't have a question, just a reflection of a thought of like I I just think that's so important.
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:51)
And I don't think that that's what dominant culture thinks. I don't know, Sydney is you're out doing that work. Is that are you experiencing dominant culture in the same way I am, where they're still seeing the bringing everyone to the table as more like,
This is a thing that's like yeah.
Sydney Elaine Butler (23:04)
I think so. And I think that's
like organizations like why like you know they're just doing one-off trainings about like racism or disability and all these different LGBT and all these different things, right? And it just like because they're still siloing it, because it's like I still have generosity to talk about these topics instead of recognizing how it's actually impacting the day to day of these you know employees that are marginalized, racialized, neurodivergent, disabled, all these different things. And
I think we keep getting so close and and we n we everyone keeps complaining about how the system's broken. But then it's actually those in like again, the the nitty gritty of the systems and pulling it apart, actually naming and calling out and doing something about the gaps that exist within the inqu inequities within these systems. But people there's so much work to be done and there's so much but then there's also the mentality, it's not if it's not broken, don't fix it. But it's like who like
it's broken in some regard 'cause it's some people aren't in the you know, being considered. And I think so many times like I it's it's so siloed and again not understanding the full picture that someone's bringing or not understanding h the the magnitude of what's happening. And so really not being able to pull back those layers, really get to the bottom of it, get to
the organization is like, well we're making a profit. Like you're saying it's at the end of the day in capitalism, it's about the bottom line. So it's like we're still making a profit. We're we're, you know, we we're reaching people, we're doing all these things. But and then I think it also goes back to that disconnect between that and safety and not understanding how they actually go hand in hand and how just because something is, you know, again the bottom of the line's okay, does it go hand is peop do people feel safe? And vice versa.
Right. And I think it is there's so much work to be done and I think other people are little overwhelmed by that as well, that they're just it's very surface level fixing instead of going deeper.
Faith Clarke (25:10)
Yeah. I think part of the thing is that it's an ethical issue.
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:15)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (25:15)
because you really there is enough research on all types of what diversity creates in terms of innovation, improve bottom line, improve retention,
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (25:25)
like improve psychological safety. Like it's
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:27)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (25:28)
you know, it's it's well established, but if you benefit from the system that is you can't imagine improve like this is
This is good. Like, why would I inconvenience myself? And I think to confronting the fact that there is a value hierarchy, and the people who sit in positions of privilege because of the you know the
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:52)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (25:53)
composite of their privilege identities, yeah, they they have to admit that some
as in animal farm, some animals are more equal than others. Like
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:03)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (26:04)
the the before until you can admit that, then some
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:07)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (26:07)
of the rest of the conversation won't go any further than just duplicating
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:11)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (26:11)
kind of patting. But I when you are interacting with clients in the workplace, what's
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:16)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (26:17)
the thing that you wish they would take further? What's one specific example of something you wish they would dial in a little bit more and that would really make the difference?
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:27)
A lot of what I'm s like a l I I do a lot of policy work with organizations and a lot of times it's just again, surface level, it's just copy and pasting legislation. It's not it's like, okay, but how does it really apply to your people? How is it impacting people? Because, you know, they say, we did a policy on it but it you know, nothing and but they look at it more again from that compliance led
with legislation, but it's like, okay, that's great and all, but the legislation is still behind or very vague in its language. And so again, how are you actually tailoring it to your organization? Is it again the language that you're using? Is it in p is it plain language? Is it available in accessible formats? And so I think really going beyond the surface and really looking at
And so now what I'm doing with organizations and even I recognize my own shortcoming because when I first started, I was like, I you know, I'm the expert even though I'm I'm in the continuously to learn. But I was like, I have the lived experience of b having disabilities of being neurodivergent. I'm also racialized, all I have all these different things. And then it would go well and I would and I would work with a team of d diverse other people that didn't have the same experience that I did. So we could have those diverse perspectives and then actually flip the switch.
like a year and a half ago, I like, wait, we need to really hear from the people. And so it's like, I'm gonna do focus groups now at the organization to collect that data about how they feel the policy is being implemented, how it's affecting them on the daily basis. And if they people wanna come to the focus groups and share, they wanna come off camera and come on come off mute and share, great. If they wanna put on the chat, if they want to even just send me an email anonymously, right? Have anonymous forums that they send in instead 'cause again it goes goes back to safety and how are we actually gathering data
from the workers that are living this this policy and breathing this policy every single day, how is it either possibly 'cause it can be positive impacts from the policy or negatively impacting them or it's like, hey, there is some positive, there's also some negatives, because there's again the nuance to the human experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:29)
I think people are often afraid of that feedback, I would imagine.
Sydney Elaine Butler (28:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:34)
might be part of why people don't listen or don't seek it out is because what if it confirms some of my fears about how I'm showing up or
Sydney Elaine Butler (28:42)
Mm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:44)
you know, about how we are performing and that. And you know, it's this is all I I'm excited to have a conversation about issues around neurodiversity, around issues of
Sydney Elaine Butler (28:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:54)
disability.
Because I will say in my own journey of kind of unlearning and relearning, this has been an it's been an area for me that's been sort of the on the lagging end of my own journey, right?
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:06)
where I've race, gender, and sex and some of these
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:10)
things came before disability. And because I think it's just it's not an identity I thought I held, although I am learning that I think I actually do hold a bit of a neurodiverse,
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:19)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:21)
identity. I I I haven't been diagnosed, but I believe I have ADHD. And I think it's one of those things of the masking that we do for so long and not realizing
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:29)
it and whatever. But I think, you know, I think I've been afraid often in the same ways I think when people start on their own unlearning journey around an issue like race or gender or whatever,
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:37)
Yeah. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:39)
where there's that fear of I'm gonna have confirmed for me my lack of understanding, my the ways that I've caused harm.
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:48)
All of that. And we don't want to know it. So we it's like we just shut it down. Yeah.
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:52)
Yeah, it's like a s it's like a s like a shield and like I
even I w I coach managers and even going into organizations and they're like, I don't wanna say the wrong thing, I don't wanna say the wrong thing. And there's so much fear and it's like 'cause it's twenty twenty six and the end generation's gonna like cancel us or whatever the whatever it is they say. and then
It's like being transparent. Be being transparent that you're learning unlearn learning, unlearning, you're learning about yourself. And I think people are so afraid to be wrong and to be transparent because of what it the implications and again the in the kind of a mirror looking back at you, right? But I think as long as you're trying as like people
Like I have a I have a good friend and she kee she sometimes she says my pronouns. She's like, I'm a day, but I said she I'm like, it's okay, take a f like you're trying. That's all I can ask of you. Right? And you can see when someone generally is caring, when someone's generally trying to try to do better, right? And I think so a lot of times people
also like I think also managers specifically are afraid of being ridiculed. They put it on a they're put on a pedestal, right? It's like you're still just a human being at the end of the day. Yes, you're the manager. You know, my partner recently became a manager and so terrified of messing up and, you know, interacting with people, but I give people people traits and s people skills. But still again that harm, don't want to cause harm to another person. And it's like being able to have these uncomfortable conversations to get to the root of the matter.
And I think that's what the real work is, but sometimes people wanna skip to the good part, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:33)
Yes, I think we just want to skip to the good part, but you can't just skip there, can you? You have to do the messy part to
Sydney Elaine Butler (31:37)
Mm. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:39)
get to the good part, but I don't I totally relate to
Faith Clarke (31:40)
You know what?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:41)
that.
Faith Clarke (31:41)
The messy part and the good part are the same part. Like there is no skipping to the
Sydney Elaine Butler (31:46)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (31:47)
good part. All like, and that's the thing that we're we're trying to have these clinical. I was watching Little House on the Prairie last night. Apparently they did
Sydney Elaine Butler (31:55)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (31:56)
a new thing. So because when I grew up, I was watching the you know the old version. And there's something about life captured 200 years ago or
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:06)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (32:06)
however long it was. It's just messy.
It's just it's just random freak things happen and people get hurt. And I think we are trying to create a story of modern life as if that's none of those things are true. I can know the right thing, I can say the right words, I can be the right way, I can have the right conflict navigation process, I can I can learn the things and therefore nothing bad will happen. And it's just perfectionism, which is part of you know supremacist ideology.
When really, yeah, no, it's all messy and I'm gonna mess up, I'm gonna say the wrong
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:41)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (32:42)
thing, and so are you, and can we just like everybody farts? Can we just be human?
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:49)
Speak for yourself, Faith.
Faith Clarke (32:51)
Like only me. Can we be human together?
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:55)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:55)
But that's hard and scary
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:57)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:59)
and sort of related. I want because you were talking about safety. And I think safety is such a big part of these conversations.
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:03)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:06)
And something that I've as somebody as part of, you know, you know, a white racialized person and and the part of that dominant culture, where I've been coming to with this, and I'm still sitting with it, but lately
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:18)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:18)
I've just been this feeling of like what I I think part of it is the idea of safe.
And safety and like creating safe spaces. In some ways it almost feels like it's part of that perfectionism faith that you're talking about of like I
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:29)
have to get this place where I have to create a space that's completely safe or I've failed. I've done it wrong. What does that say about me? All of the things, right? And it's like, could we just start to use language like safer? because the truth is I don't know that I can. I don't right as I sit right now, I don't believe I can ever create a truly safe space for a black
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:46)
woman.
I don't think I ever create a truly safe space for a trans woman. I don't think I can ever create a truly safe space for an autistic person without having in and honestly, even if I lived that experience, I don't know that I could create a safe space then for a black autistic woman, right? As a white, let's say I were an white autistic woman. So I think I've just been sitting lately with what is it, what happens in my body and in my thought process and in my
Sydney Elaine Butler (34:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:08)
actions when I sit with the idea of creating safer spaces? Like what is that?
do. And I don't know that that's the quote unquote
Sydney Elaine Butler (34:15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:15)
right answer. Maybe there aren't right answers, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on that of safe, safety, safer
Sydney Elaine Butler (34:20)
Yeah, I was I was gonna
put the question back to you both. It's just like what so I think ev every single person on this earth has a different understanding of what safe means to them. And I think that's what you're kind of getting at, Becky. And I think like what what does safe mean to you? And even just cre I think by creating safer spaces, it's like allowing people to say share with the share with people what safe means to them. Right? Also have I live with complex PTSD. And so what does it mean to actually
being safe spaces. What does it mean to show up as yourself? And I think, you know, I'm trying to advocate for people showing up as the most of themselves and be the best selves, right? But it's it's scary to be your false authentic self to people. Again, if you don't know them or you know, it the fear of being judged. So again, how are you creating safer spaces? And how are we allowing people to share what safe means to them and not
Yes, there's like the definition of safe, but it's like there's so much nuance again to that. And I keep saying that word today, but it's really applicable to what we're talking about today. And really just how are we allowing people to show up how they want to show up? And I think that goes into the safer spaces. And how are we allowing people to communicate how they need to communicate and how to express themselves and how are we recognizing
We could we can do all we can sometimes. Like even myself. Like I was I did an event and I you know, I was creating a safer space, but harm so happened and it was n you know, I didn't directly cause the harm, but I created I hosted that event. So I still had to take responsibility for that. And so how does that impact how someone's not gonna view me? It's like I you know, it's like you didn't directly cause the harm, but I was at your event that you were hosting and it was harmed by someone else that was attending, right?
And so how are we again having these conversations? How are we having conversations around safety or, you know, trying we're that we're trying our best you know?
Faith Clarke (36:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:23)
Well,
I immediately think of faith because faith has been
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:26)
the best model for me on belong creating belonging because that to me is one of the things that faith that you do really well, which is like setting the expectations. It's I I think what you're saying is
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:37)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37)
what I'm hearing is like expectation setting from the beginning, which
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:41)
I don't know if we did I find like because I think I was kind of
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:43)
the one at the beginning of this conversation before we hit record. But the goal there is just kind of to help you understand what we think this conversation's gonna look like.
Is there anything that you need? Anything that would help you?
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:54)
and it does feel like that, like co-creation. And that's what faith is like is so good at co-creation. And I've been learning from faith on co-creation. So I'm guessing you have thoughts, faith, because I feel like that's at the heart of what you do when it comes to belonging. And it feels like exactly what you're saying, Sydney, is like, how do we co-create a space? And I loved what you said that it's not about showing up as your best self necessarily, but how do you want? How do I help you?
Or what can we do here to make sure you can show up as the self you want to be today? Because my best self is not always there. Like Papa Smurf is rarely around.
Faith Clarke (37:25)
Best today.
Sydney Elaine Butler (37:26)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (37:27)
Best in this minute right now, 'cause
Becky Mollenkamp (37:29)
Exactly.
How can I jump as the self I'd like to be right now, given my capacity, given the state of the world, given a million things, like what would help? And I I think that's I love that framing that I'm gonna hold on to that. But Faith, I'm sure you have thoughts.
Faith Clarke (37:42)
I think my own I don't think it's possible to make safe spaces any more than I think it's possible for the world to be quote unquote safe. You know, I like what random
Sydney Elaine Butler (37:50)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (37:50)
freak thing can happen and hit the car and then, you know, but what I think we can do is pay some damn attention. Pay attention like there's
Sydney Elaine Butler (37:58)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (37:59)
a way that the the person with multiple marginalized identities is the one paying all of the attention.
'Cause I've I'm paying attention to my safety. I'm trying to make sure you understand me. I'm trying to make sure I don't go here. I'm masking this identity. I'm paying attention. And I think it this the spaces are so much more
Integrated and inclusive when everybody holds the weight of attention. Just look at me. You don't even have to know, I don't even have to have disclosed all of what I need. But if you're looking at me, if you're really paying attention, you will begin to see what I need. And people have said to me, I don't know how to help moms of kids with autism. I don't know anything about that. I'm like, knock on the door and come looking, stand in my kitchen and just watch.
If you watch, you'll see. And so I think when I talk with people and when when I'm sharing about creating space where we can all thrive together, it is about cultivating a certain kind of attending to
Sydney Elaine Butler (38:57)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (38:57)
people that and mutual attending. Because again, those of us who have multiple marginalized identities, we're the
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:04)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:05)
ones used to offering care, attending, and protecting ourselves. So what I crave is being in space where
the attention I give to others is offered back to me. And so somebody says, I I know that you get freaked out when you have to look a little bit to the left. I I have vertigo and it it's affected
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:25)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:26)
when I glance to the left.
So I'ma just put the screen to the right. I'm like, that's that's the most delightful thing that I you actually
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:34)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (39:34)
notice that. and so for me it's I don't know that we can be safe, but I think when I am not safe and it was because you were careless, that that's a thing that feels really harmful
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:44)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:46)
to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:47)
Sydney, I heard you say
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:48)
almost the identical thing Faith said about, and I'm and I'm sure it's probably some issue some component there of some shared multiple overlapping marginalized identities.
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:55)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:58)
Cause at the very beginning of this, you said that when you were young, it was like the expectation on you, or that you j whether it was an expectation or just what happened by the laws of the
Sydney Elaine Butler (40:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:08)
world, right? But like you were doing so much caretaking of others and attending to others'
Sydney Elaine Butler (40:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:11)
needs, and like you're wanting to help others still, but
I'm just curious how that lands with you because I have a feeling it's a similar thing of you just some of that is like I want my needs met once. That would feel great. Is that
Sydney Elaine Butler (40:25)
Well,
it's it's so it's it's still a process, I think to
understand that my needs are valid and I think as humans we like we want to give but sometimes it's like 'cause you like if you take you're selfish, right? and I had that in previous relationships, I've had that with some parent dynamics and another dynamics. And so just really sitting with it's like, no, I'm worthy. My needs are valid. I'm really sitting with that and I th like I
realize when I do take care of my needs or when I have other people like my my I have a lovely partner now that helps take care of my needs when I you know and really being like, my needs like I can take I deserve to take care of my own needs. I deserve to have other people support my needs if I need it. And but it's still sometimes that shame cycle is like
'Cause I for so long I was like, my needs aren't valid, right? And so really being able to be like, No, my needs are valid, what does it look like? And I even like wrote down I can write down continuously to myself to remind myself, 'cause it's a continuous practice that my needs can change and and and eval evolve and as I'm changing and as I'm evolving and that's okay.
Right. And we're const constantly evolving and changing as human beings and that means our needs and things change. And so really sitting with that and to be able to do the work of helping others, of helping people know that their needs are valid. I shouldn't notice that for myself first. And I'm transparent that I still struggle with it some days. Like last year I did a program called Employment Works that was a part time job and it was helping neurodivergent youth
get job opportunities and help them with their resumes and help them like see building up their confidence in certain areas and working with them. And I was working with one individual and he really struggled with the self-worth. And I was like some days I still really struggle with them. I had to struggle with it like yesterday before I came in here today. And he I was like, I was literally struggling communicating my needs to my partner. And my partner
mo validates my needs all the time, but I'm still struggling based on past experiences and I can see that's kind of happening with you. And he looked at me and he was just like, What? Like he's like, Well you like you have a job, like he's like, I know these things. I'm like, I still struggle with these things and just really I think putting the human back into it. I think the heart of belonging, the heart of all these different things we're talking about today is really what does it mean to be a human being? What does it mean to
take care of others if and take care of yourself and really how are you like even f like you were talking about masking too, Becky and just like you mask for so long. Like I remember I I knew I was autistic, but I was still masking for so long though. It's like Am I? Like I was I just making it up, you know. I know I'm just I just have depression, all these different things. And then actually during twenty twenty, during COVID, the height of COVID, I really I
I was so busy because I was working school I was going to school full time, was working almost full time hours to pay for school. And I when I finally had a moment to just sit and be by myself, I was like, huh. Like and I starting to unmask, starting to get to know myself. And I think so many times we're in such hurry to get to know everyone else and not get to know ourselves. And so
I was gonna ask you both, just like how do you get to know yourselves? Like how do you take care of yourself to show up for your best to be your best self in other spaces? Because I think again, we can create safer spaces, but how are we creating spaces and how are we creating spaces where we feel like we can't show up? How are we filling up our own cup first to show up how we wanna show up?
Becky Mollenkamp (44:07)
I think it's really rude to call two hosts out on something you know they don't I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:10)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:13)
I'm being called out because I don't do the best job of t of filling my own cup. Although I I know, right? Well, here we are. Exactly. I'm
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:17)
I I yeah. It's it's practice. It's practice. That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:21)
getting better. for me it's alone. I need solitude. I am such
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:25)
a deep introvert that I need a lot of solitude to be able to refill my cup. There's no nothing that refills my cup better than being alone. And so for me it's been having to
assert boundaries that
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:37)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:37)
that make that happen because I live with two people who don't have the same need. And instead of them getting their needs met from each other, it feels like they both want me to fill the need of
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:49)
togetherness. and so I've been having to more and more do education of why I need why my needs look like they do, or just that they look like they do. And then
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:58)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:59)
sort of asserting that this is what I need and communicating that
It's about me, not them, and all of that. And I'm getting better at that. I am getting better at taking more time for myself. and and trying to
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:09)
Clap clap clap.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:10)
thank you. And reducing that feeling of the selfishness, because I relate to that, Sydney, so much because I have a lot of messaging that I was given very early, blatant your selfish messaging,
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:21)
that I'm fighting all the time. So I'm I still just like you, it's a daily fight of of feeling this like, am I allowed?
quote unquote
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:30)
to assert this need, right? To advocate for this need. and some days I do a great job and sometimes I don't. And that's also okay, right? Yeah. Faith, what about
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:38)
Yeah. Thank you for sharing.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:40)
you? I mean, Faith just moved to another country. So, well, return to another country. So that's part of it, I think. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (45:45)
Move, it's a big move.
I think what I've done more recently, I'll just say that I got a baptism and fire is how it felt when my kids were.
seven, four and one, with the first one being autistic and me not knowing what the others had
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:02)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (46:03)
going on.
And just recognizing that I was on the edge. Like this, this, this, this was, it was a very vulnerable time. Like I hadn't experienced the type of anxiety, almost PTSD. Like
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:17)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (46:18)
I woke up startled with my heart racing. And it was it was mind-noming.
steady, constant work. And I I I recognize that if I don't manage this, meaning if my body doesn't manage this, everybody suffers. And so
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:35)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (46:36)
at that point I had a quick induction into you better take care of yourself. And I remember just coming up with some principles for doing that. And did it very impoorly, but but the thing, the beautiful thing for me with my kids was that
they did horribly when I was doing horribly. So I would be like, Why is everybody
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:52)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (46:54)
why does everybody look like they're losing their mind?
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:56)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (46:57)
I'm I need rest. I
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:59)
It was that mirror,
yeah.
Faith Clarke (47:00)
Food, I need water, I need pause, I need quiet. And so for me now, I I tend to need the external mirror back to me a lot.
Sydney Elaine Butler (47:09)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (47:09)
and so I'm learning to listen, first of all, to to ask myself, who is the mirror, right? I need people around me who's gonna mirror back to me so that I will take care of myself. And in my current relationship, my partner does that, and it's that's a real gift to me to be able to say it's three o'clock. Looks like you might be heading to that ledge that you fall off at about 3:30.
Sydney Elaine Butler (47:28)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (47:30)
so who do I invite into closed space is part of my own self-care because yeah, I'm not I don't practice it enough, number one. But number two, can I hear myself? So, like if I wake up and I have a meeting with Becky and then I'm like, I feel like crap this morning. I don't say, Hey Becky, I feel like crap, but I'm also like we have the relationship that says, Yeah, we're gonna listen to our bodies first. So we no, maybe we're not meeting. And I think how who do we have partnership, business relationships with who are our clients?
clients.
Sydney Elaine Butler (47:59)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (47:59)
But if I have a client that I can't say my son didn't sleep last night and therefore I didn't sleep. I can't meet with you now, then that's not a good client for me. And so it's it's for me, it's been about controlling or managing
Sydney Elaine Butler (48:09)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (48:12)
and choosing my environment just so I can get the kind of care I need.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:17)
I love that. How about you, Sydney?
Sydney Elaine Butler (48:17)
Yeah, I th th thank you
both Yeah, I it was it's I have a quick client story that I thought of when Faith was speaking. So last year I was working with a client working on I was so I was first we audited their policies and then it was like we need an accommodation policy was an international company, wrote an accommodation policy and we're in the process, then we had to meet to go over the we were gonna do training to roll out the policy for both the HR team, the managers and the all staff and
I I struggled with chronic pain and so I was having a chronic pain moment and I was like, no, don't tell just push through, just push I like, wait, but with Lily meeting to talk like Lily wrote an accommodation policy, talking about chronic pain in that policy. If they don't like, they have to get it, right? And so sent the them emails like, Hey, this is what's going on. Didn't even go into the nitty gritty of the details 'cause that's you know, what I choose to share.
And so you know, you get to choose what you share to people and how you present certain things. And they're like, Yep, no problem. They're like don't and I was like, I said I even asked in the email like, when would you like to reschedule? Just to like, you know, so be professional. And they're like, send us an email when you feel when you feel up to it again. No no rush, you know, when you feel and it was such a relief, you know, and it was also this was
Also, I lost my nana last year and so I think it was also chronic pain mixed with the grief of losing my nana and just having a real human moment of struggle and to be to be able to have a client that understood like don't let me schedule anything right now. When you feel better, just send send us an email, we'll figure it out then, take care of yourself. It was basically and I think
I through that I really learned that I was like, I gave my person self permission to be like, I know I can't I can't do this meeting today. And so when you start giving yourself permission to actually take care of yourself, to practice self care, to
I think I think a lot of times people th are worried that other people aren't gonna give them that grace to do that. But I think when you start giving yourself the grace, and again it's a practice, like some days I'm like I s I still struggle with it. Can we tell them like I shouldn't have said this like this is a different client, they may not respond the same way, but I'm like if they respond a certain way, that that tells me things and I then I don't wanna work with them again in the future, you know? Or e or people I wanna interact with, like the family members or friends or people I thought were my friends, all these different things.
Right. And so just by giving myself permission to be where I'm at that day and be as transparent as I choose to be and have a plan in place. Like I even have a self-care to-do list now. So instead of I have things that I am reactive to depending on how I'm showing up that day.
But I I try to be proactive in my self care. So that includes like doing my stretches, taking my dog for a walk, cuddling my dog, you know, little things like that. Even I have like brushing my teeth, 'cause sometimes again with being near I suck suffer from executive dysfunction. And so having me just brushing my teeth and having stickers to go along with that and having different things in place to I think self care was kind of like sp it's spa days and spending lots of money, but that's
that's not accessible, that's not every day like it can be that, but what does it actually look like on a day how are you maintaining yourself on a day to day basis? And how are you creating space for yourself and allowing other people to give you that space that you need?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:41)
I I love that. And I wanted to share really quickly before we wind up that, before we wind down the conversation, going back to the who's the thing at the table and when everyone's at the table, everyone benefits. Similar to what you're talking about, I was on a call where the premier, the speaker, the reason everyone was in the room, hundreds of people were in the room, maybe
Sydney Elaine Butler (51:56)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:59)
even thousands were in the room, was to see Res McKenicum speak,
Sydney Elaine Butler (52:02)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:03)
author of My Grandmother's Hands. And, you know, his whole work is around somatic experiences.
And it was clear he was tired and wasn't feeling well. And so the host, who I finally have remembered who it was, and I feel bad that every time I've told the story, I've never said who because I couldn't remember. But it was Corine Bell from Rooted Global Village. And it was one of their events that everyone was there to see this person. And within the first two questions, she she became aware that it was clear he wasn't feeling his best, but he was gonna push through because he had said he'd be there and there was thousands of people watching him. And she said, Are you?
How are you feeling in your body? Right. And he said, I have a head, I have a really bad headache and I haven't had enough sleep. I've been on this book tour or whatever. I think it was for second book. and she said, I'm gonna stop us and I want you to go get sleep. That's what you need right now.
Sydney Elaine Butler (52:47)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:48)
It's clear you need rest, right? There were thousands of people in that room that had were
Sydney Elaine Butler (52:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:52)
there to see this person, and she ended the conversation. He would have gone on. He said, No, no, no, I can I can continue. And she said, I know you can, but that's clearly not what you need, right? Like you need rest, and I want
Sydney Elaine Butler (53:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:02)
We need to model what we're here to talk about. And that room could have turned and become horrible, but instead what happened was people started to share their own stories of having been seen, of having been held, of having been cared for, of how they want to model that in rooms. It turned into one of the most beautiful
Sydney Elaine Butler (53:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:21)
experiences I had ever had. And I was there to see Resma. And I was disappointed when Resma left. And yet it became a richer, more
I I don't know that I would have remembered what Rezma said. This is has to be five, seven, eight years ago. I
Sydney Elaine Butler (53:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:37)
wouldn't remember what he said, but I will never forget that moment. And we all are better from that, of this, of that like modeling it, doing it, what it brings to the table for everyone. So I love that you shared that. because I think it's, yeah, when we can do it, when we can, when we can.
Ask for what we need or give others. I like I think it's what Sfaith's saying too. It's anticipating someone else's needs and and then being able to help facilitate that instead of waiting for Resma to have to say, My head just hurts too bad I can't do this, right?
Sydney Elaine Butler (54:02)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:04)
so thank you for that. unless anyone has anything urgent or like they Yeah, please go ahead. Cause otherwise I was gonna wind us down, but I don't wanna wind us down you have something else to say.
Sydney Elaine Butler (54:08)
W I I was just gonna just quick just a quick just
a quick th just like this past weekend I was so I was talking to my partner on the phone and at moments like I think my headphones come out like they're also listening to something else and so I'm like, Can you hear me? Like I'm repeating myself and I'm just getting frustrated Right? And then they were like c can can you like
Say something and then like speaking, speaking and they're like, Well, I don't like I don't know if you're speaking, I don't know if so they're like if you if if you're speaking and I'm not responding that can you send me a text? And then and then it's just like and can we do that mo and then
Did a text, tried again, could finally hear me. And we just like, okay, if from now on, if I c if I you're saying something multiple times and I not giving you a response, it's not because I'm ignoring you, because again, sometimes it's like am they're ignoring me, like the silent treatment, because I got the silent treatment before in my life. Instead of assuming I'm giving you the silent treatment, assuming the worst, send me a text and can you hear me? And then we can and then be like, No, I can't hear you, and we can try and figure it out.
Right. And that we're gonna do that moving forward. Right. And we've been together six years and we and this is an issue that's recently come up sometimes. And then and so it's like, hey, no, if something just send me a text to see if just testing the waters and seeing if I generally cannot hear you and then ask the question or send it you can send the question in this in the text, or you know, I can say no and then you can try maybe try again, see if I can now hear you, if I was now my attention's back on you.
Or if it's actually a technical issue, is it just you know? And so that was really that was really pointing to me this past weekend of how recognizing someone's needs but also and what it means to actually have your needs met.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:55)
Yeah, such a gift.
Faith Clarke (55:55)
Yeah, and and to
feel that safety to request. Yeah, I want I want it this way and in the future that way and to be,
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:04)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (56:05)
you know, so precise. But yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:08)
Yeah.
Okay, so we're gonna finish with a yes and otherwise because this is what we're now calling these conversations.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:14)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:16)
So this is a time to play. You don't take it all too seriously. You don't have to get it there's no right and wrong.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:21)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:24)
Because well, first is just what are you saying yes to right now.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:28)
Mm-hmm. What I'm saying yes to right now is taking care of myself.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:33)
And what's the and?
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:34)
And
and that w and creating routines that really help serve me do like I even like this morning for example, like some again being a business one, being a
I get a lot of ema like I got two new emails come up. It like and sometimes I'd be like reply to them just to get, you know, out of sight, you know, before they get out of sight out mind. But Lily was like, there's a thing called me time, and you can put different apps that you really want to focus on. So it's like I only had like my journaling apps, I have workout apps on my phone. So only those I can access to in that time. And that I was like, huh. I could I think I could already feel a difference. So
Becky Mollenkamp (57:13)
Love
that. And the last one's the one that's a little more open for interpretation, I think, but it's the otherwise. So what's
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:18)
the otherwise?
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:20)
But otherwise.
Otherwise, I feel like it
I'll get I'll I'll lose
track of what's important and that's my health and myself, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (57:29)
Thank you for sharing, Sadni.
Faith Clarke (57:30)
You
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:30)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (57:31)
I just want to mirror something back that we started the conversation about your helping people. We're ending the conversation about you resourcing, you allowing yourself to be resourced. and just the beautiful synergy that you mentioned about the giving and the receiving, and just
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:48)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (57:49)
yeah, we landed in a place. Your whole yes and otherwise is about this filling up of your own tank, which is
Yeah, so many of us weren't allowed even to fill our tank. And
Sydney Elaine Butler (58:01)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (58:01)
so here this this beautiful moment of you owning that. So thank you so much for sharing that with us live.
Sydney Elaine Butler (58:08)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:09)
And where is the best place for people to learn more about you, Sydney, and about Accessible Creates?
Sydney Elaine Butler (58:15)
Yes, so there's an Accessible Crates website called accessiblecrates.ca. And then you can also find me on at LinkedIn at Sydney Elaine Butler.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:23)
Awesome. Thank you for your time and for this beautiful conversation. And thank you, Faith, too.
Hey Sydney,
Welcome to Yes and Otherwise conversation that Becky and I are hosting where we play with the nuance.
you know, in life in our stories and we kind of tease out some of the patterns that we've been living through. So I wanted to start off though with something really silly because I watched a cartoon movie last night. one of my favorite things to do. So I'm wondering, question for all of us, what's your favorite cartoon character that you relate to the most and why?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:46)
this is gonna sound sort of silly, but probably Papa Smurf. Cause I always felt like I know. cause he was like the
I was always told I was wise beyond my years as a kid and all that kind of stuff they do to adultify children. and so I always felt kind of wise like Papa Smurf. So I'll go with him.
Sydney Elaine Butler (01:02)
That's a solid answer.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:03)
Thank you.
Faith Clarke (01:04)
That's kind of cool. Sydney, what do you think?
Sydney Elaine Butler (01:06)
The first thing that came to mind, so I I I'm from Canada and we have I don't know if i if the show was also in because I know like we had shows that were on Cartoon Network and we've had a sho c channel called Teletoon, but I think it was exclusively Canadian programming, but maybe it aired. So the show was called Atomic Betty. And so she goes to school by day, she's a cheerleader at school, and then she goes to space and fights like space villains. Okay.
And she had her sidekicks and I feel like I I feel like Atomic Betty is mine because I am a business owner and I'm founder of an organization and feel like I like there were parts of me, but I feel like I have to show up in a certain way and then when I'm done go back to hanging out with my family, hanging with my dog. So if if my virtual back room does turn turn off, she's right behind me. and just
the duality of wanting to s save the world, change the world, but also live a normal life and really be surrounded by people that I care about and I love.
Faith Clarke (02:08)
That's cool. Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:10)
How about you, Faith?
Faith Clarke (02:11)
Yeah, I I so the movie I watched last night was Hoppers and just
Sydney Elaine Butler (02:16)
Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (02:17)
out. And there's something about the 19-year-old main character. As like if if doing the most was was a person, this would be her. They're just a very
excessive like I must fix this swamp or save the glade or whatever it is and I'm gonna do whatever and I'm gonna go fast. And I don't feel like I'm that way like on the outside, but it feels like something that I have to manage a fair moment. So like
Sydney Elaine Butler (02:43)
Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (02:44)
I'm you know I said I I'm in my 50s and I'm like I'm recovering from doing the most. Can I just not do the most? Can I start in the small ways? I can just let go of the most and just do the minimum or
The middle, you know. So yeah, that that character resonated last night, but I think bigger and maybe similar is Luisa in Encanto. This kind of carry
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:08)
Mm, yeah.
Faith Clarke (03:09)
all the things, I'm strong enough, I'm gorgeous as a strong person,
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (03:13)
the glorification of the you know, the too muchness. And so yeah, I I relate.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:19)
I feel
like I want to revise my answer because I felt very like urgent to
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:23)
pick one. Because I realized now that honestly the character that I most was like that actually almost brought me to tears in a movie and has never happened before was when I watched Inside Out 2 and they had anxiety as a character as one of the feelings.
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:34)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:35)
It was the most accurately I had ever felt portrayed. I was like, that is that's that's my like brain. That's my life.
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:41)
That's what my existence feels like is this whirlwind of thoughts that if I'm not watching it can just become
out of control to the point of like
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:49)
it taking over. So okay, I take it back. Although also sometimes I feel wise, but that feels a little like not full of me.
Sydney Elaine Butler (03:55)
But they I feel like they go hand in hand there, Becky. So
Becky Mollenkamp (03:58)
Maybe you might be right. Maybe that's like at its best it's Papa Smurf, but a lot of times I'm
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:02)
It's a spectrum.
Faith Clarke (04:03)
Underneath.
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:04)
Anxiety, pop a spra
Becky Mollenkamp (04:05)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (04:05)
Yeah.
You know, maybe maybe Papa Smurf has a shadow or maybe Ang
Becky Mollenkamp (04:08)
Yeah, you know, it depends on when
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:09)
Huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:10)
you get me. I'm either Papa Smurf or anxiety. I love that, Faith. Thank you.
Faith Clarke (04:14)
you're welcome. So like when we think about even stories from our childhood or like their themes that seem to occur.
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:21)
Mm mm. Yes.
Faith Clarke (04:23)
so if you're to think about the past, I'd say three to six months.
What's a story that keeps recurring? Maybe a moment in time that has happened, but then you kind of see echoes of it in other places or at other times. So what's something recent that feels like, yeah, it's kind of sticking with you, it's repeating, you find yourself talking about it, or it comes to mind
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:46)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (04:47)
that feels able to be shared.
Sydney Elaine Butler (04:49)
Yeah.
I think it's funny that you talked about like, you know, things in childhood leading in to adulthood. I think a lot recently I've been talking with others about this too. It just as kids we have our innate things that we do. We have th how we show up in the world.
And sometimes the world tries to tear that down. But I think as and I have a circle of it's c we call ourselves the Fempreneurs and we meet once a month and it's a group of female entrepreneurs and we actually met in person last month for the first time, some of us. And we were talking about how things that I was good at as a child actually correlates what to what I'm doing in business. And so I've been really thinking about that and how like in my in in school I would
My parents always told me to help others, right? And so I had difficulty asking for help myself, but I always would help others. And so, and now I help others with disabilities in my career. And I was even doing that back in school. And so thinking a lot about how things kind of come full circle, things are cyclical, and really that the stories can change a little bit, they vary, they have more nuance, they have more
d different details but there's a s a lot of similarities and I think if more people had the chance to really sit with that instead of just you know, it it's expensive out there, but a lot of us are in surviving all over the the state of the world. And I think if a lot of us had the chance to really sit and interact with our inner child or inner teenager that and that's been a lot of what I've been thinking about and talking about and in in my stories recently.
Faith Clarke (06:23)
So what's a moment then in the recent times that made that feel
Sydney Elaine Butler (06:26)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (06:28)
like, that brought that to mind? What's an example experience that
Sydney Elaine Butler (06:31)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (06:31)
kind of made that really big for you?
Sydney Elaine Butler (06:33)
Yeah, so I so I went to this we had this thing called the Canadian Autism Leader Leadership Summit and so I attended that event and then they had their annual general meeting shortly after that and they actually asked me to come speak at the annual general meeting. They met me I met some of the organizing team at that event and it was kind of a full circle moment because
And I was talking to people all of all ages on the autism spectrum, people that aren't on the autism spectrum, et cetera, and they're new individual or not, and just h now finding my voice when as a kid and I was talking about I even talked about some of my experiences that I had as a kid that helps impact how I show up every day and even that then that experience itself was even this moment of being a racialized autistic woman and now being able to speak in front of you all today, I was like this
This is a big deal. We need to keep having diverse voices at the table. And that's one of the most poignant stories.
Faith Clarke (07:28)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:31)
And I know
we didn't give you a right proper introduction as my husband likes to call dinner when
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:33)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:35)
we don't eat a real meal. He'll be like, we haven't had a right proper dinner. We haven't had a right proper introduction. So let me quickly say that you're the founder of Accessible Creates.
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:41)
Mm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:44)
and you're speaking obviously a little bit about your experience and
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:47)
and what that I think it's starting to help people kind of fill in the picture here a little bit about what
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:49)
Mm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:52)
you do. But and and we'll get more into what you do. But I'm curious
Sydney Elaine Butler (07:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:56)
if you could just tell us a little bit like right now, because
Yes and otherwise, we really want to explore the stories that aren't being told. And so when you
Sydney Elaine Butler (08:03)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:04)
think about like that event you went to or, you know, just the work you've been doing
Sydney Elaine Butler (08:07)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:07)
lately, what's the story that isn't being told in your industry and in the things that you do that you wish was being told?
Sydney Elaine Butler (08:16)
Yeah, I think I kind of just touched the beautiful really the intersectionality pieces. I think so many times people think us to look one way or even like again at that event, they have an award every year that they give to an autistic leader and this was the first year they gave it to a non speaking autistic individual. And that was a big deal. And we were all crying in the room as it happened, but it just like representation and intersectionality matters. But even when it comes to disability work, when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion,
We n this still so much in silos and not really looking at it from the intersectional perspective. We all have diverse identities, you know, and how like I'm a dogma, my dog's behind me, like I keep mentioning. I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, all these different things. I'm a founder, like I've all these different things that make me who I am. Okay, like, you know, these parts are often so often ignored and needs to really be understood okay, how
How is someone showing up in these spaces? Do they feel safe to bring their whole self to the table? Or is it, you know, they only bring one part of them or some parts of them? And that's not true intersectionality when someone can't bring their whole self to the table.
Faith Clarke (09:25)
And what's been what do you think's been challenging thinking back about childhood or even now when
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:32)
you look at your whole self? Like sometimes we get for me, it's okay
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:36)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:37)
for me to be an immigrant woman. there's some
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:39)
Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (09:40)
places where that's that shows a certain kind of work ethic.
But then an immigrant woman who's mother of kids who have complex needs, no, that's a person to be avoided because she won't be able to. You know, there's way that once you
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:51)
Mm. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (09:53)
start to try to be your full self, it comes
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (09:57)
with some identities get more pushback than others. So what's
Sydney Elaine Butler (09:59)
Yes. Mm mm.
Faith Clarke (10:00)
a story that maybe you've lived in that captures some of the places where some identities were?
preferred or want you wanted the people wanted them silenced or and how you navigated
Sydney Elaine Butler (10:13)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (10:14)
that.
Sydney Elaine Butler (10:14)
Yeah, so I I'm biracial. So my mom is from Guyana is black, and my dad is from the UK and he's white. And so I'm biracial. And so being in spaces in black spaces with like they ignore the whiteness of me and vice versa. When I'm in white spaces, I have to people ignore the black side of me. And so that's I'm like, no, I'm biracial. I make it very clear that I'm biracial. and for the most part, but sometimes for my safety, I do have to
go with what you know, where I am and it's frustrating but it's the s it's the reality that I live in and understanding that a lot of times even though now I f the there we do have a charity here called the Shared Community Foundation, which is for black disabled Canadians. But until that space I felt like I was either like I had to go into my black community or be in a disabled community but I couldn't
be my full self and that was very frustrating and felt like like you were saying, Faith, like some parts have to be subdued. What does that look like? And I think and sometimes it's just instinctual and it's survival mechanism and it you know, and you don't I sometimes I don't even realize I'm doing it and then after I'm like, wait, what? Like, you know, and a after I reflect how this promise to reflect back. And
And then I get kind of frustrated myself like I'm such a proponent for intersectionality and you know, owning that and like recognizing my oppressions, recognizing my privileges at the same time, because both can coexist,
Faith Clarke (11:42)
Right.
Sydney Elaine Butler (11:42)
but recognizing that society if society sees you or people see you in a certain way, you're not being malicious by ignoring those other parts of you. You just you do what you have to do for survival. Like I also identify as non-binary, so I prefer they slash them pronouns.
But sometimes in my safety for my safety in black communities especially, sometimes they don't really understand, or it sometimes it takes a while for them to understand. Like obviously sometimes in the white communities can be the same thing, but or even with disability, it's I have to not omit but subdue that part of me or not like I'm like, okay, I sh I use she slash her pronouns. Meanwhile, I prefer they slash them pronouns and just recognizing it, I think it all comes back to safety in that safety aspect and how safe you feel.
And you know, if you're your first time in a space and you're getting to know people, you don't know, you're just trying to figure things out and as you feel more comfortable, as you feel more safe, you can kinda let those guards down.
Faith Clarke (12:41)
Yeah, yeah. And I think we carry our stories from other spaces. So it it takes a minute
Sydney Elaine Butler (12:45)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (12:47)
to build the trust in a space that, maybe this part
Sydney Elaine Butler (12:49)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (12:50)
of me can be seen. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:51)
I just literally last night finished reading Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria by Beverly Daniel Tatum. I wanted to make sure I got the name right,
Sydney Elaine Butler (12:59)
Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:00)
so I just looked at it. and it's just so interesting because you know, obviously my lived experience is gonna be very different than both of yours, because as the book was talking about, white people in in the US, probably also in Canada, I would expect, in North America,
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:15)
have a have it being a part of sort of the majority identity.
Becomes considered the norm, right? And I'm using air quotes for people who are listening because
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:24)
obviously that's not the case, but that becomes sort of seen as the identity, right? And everything else becomes the
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:31)
the difference from the identity. And this book was really great at
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:35)
talking a lot about that and how white folks often don't see themselves as having a race component to their lives, a race culture or a race identity. And so when
And I thought about that. I was like, you it's so true that when I have thought about who am I, I've almost always led with woman first. That's the thing, probably because that's
Sydney Elaine Butler (13:54)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:54)
an identity that has always felt maybe the most marginalized, right? So I experience that as something that is seen as other than the set point.
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:04)
but never white was never a thing that I thought of. And when I think about what is white culture, it was always very challenging for me to understand
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:11)
what that meant. And so this book was, even though I've
I've studied a lot of this stuff over many years now. And I and I've thought a lot about intersectionality. I hadn't really considered as much around that by the biracial, mixed race,
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:21)
Mm mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:22)
whatever the terms are that people prefer because she talks about that too.
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:26)
And and some of those challenges, and it was interesting, it's it brought up some of the same things, exactly what you're speaking to. She speaks in this book around depending on the environment, some of it was.
Where were you you know, the fo like folks who ha may have had a white parent and a black parent and were raised in a white environment might lean in more to identifying as with that part of their identity because
Sydney Elaine Butler (14:46)
Well, even
like me and my br I have a brother, right? And I think he identifies more with his British roots and that aspect. And I feel like I relate to both, but if I had to choose, even though like you don't have to choose, 'cause we're literally both,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:01)
Right.
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:01)
I would say I identify more with black black culture, right? And so and I think even just
And then he's a bit fairer skinned than I am, and you know, there's so many nuances and I think a lot of
Becky Mollenkamp (15:14)
Yeah.
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:15)
people miss that piece.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:17)
Yeah. Well, and then you've there's this other layer here too around neurodiversity, autism, you know, which
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:22)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:25)
I think you you said you were autistic. We haven't actually taught I mean you've been mentioning we
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:27)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:28)
haven't talked about it per se. So adding that into all of that sort of it's like this
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:33)
equation of like I and it feels like society wants to take these complicated layers that make who we are and try to flatten it down into almost like you
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:42)
Yeah, this squash.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:43)
get the
Yeah, and you gotta pick one, like out of the scrab bags of things that make you who you
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:46)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:48)
are. And it feels like what you're talking about is like how do we create spaces? And in your case, I think it's work spaces, primarily where you're focusing your work
Sydney Elaine Butler (15:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:57)
that that take that collapsed experience and try to sort of expand it back open like a an accordion to say all of those things get to exist
Sydney Elaine Butler (16:01)
Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:05)
here. But I'm what is what is different when we do that? And and not just the how we do it, because we can talk about that if if
Sydney Elaine Butler (16:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:12)
we want to go there, but like
What does that change when we allow instead of trying to collapse people down, when we say, let's expand it open and say all the parts of you are equally important here?
Sydney Elaine Butler (16:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think you get when you squash down, you get a version of the person that you're kind of expecting. But when you can open it up and make more of an according, like you were saying, Becky, I think you get so much more of the person's rich experience. You get to understand different parts of them and w again why they do what they do, how why they're showing up the way they're showing up, what makes them do what they do, right? And I think
that it's so overlooked and I think I th I and I th I don't like sometimes I think it was intentional to again squash those identities, squash those different parts of people, but I think it just
It's kind of just repetitive in the this the systems that are created created led to that, right? And not understanding the impact it's gonna have on diverse people. And that includes like you like you said, you identify as a woman first. That's a huge part of your identity because of the oppression piece, right? And so and how is society who who is society deeming important and the hierarchy and what that what does that look like? And I think that
plays a huge role in how the the collapsing and not understanding people's full identities comes into place.
Faith Clarke (17:41)
I think of the things that always comes back to me, I remember when my son, who who also he's a
Sydney Elaine Butler (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (17:46)
non-speaking autistic adult now,
Sydney Elaine Butler (17:49)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (17:50)
and black bodied, you know, so
Sydney Elaine Butler (17:52)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (17:52)
all the things that come with that. but when we were in elementary school or I think it was kindergarten, and I was understanding all the the teaching methodologies that they were using in his special school.
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:03)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:04)
I was like, why aren't we using this with all the kids? There's something so powerful. When we when we create these separate spaces for people that align with their identities, what what I think also happens is that we we develop approaches and techniques and decision-making
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:24)
Mm, yeah.
Faith Clarke (18:25)
strategies and and innovation that's specific to those
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:28)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:29)
people that really is riches and gold for everyone.
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:33)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:33)
I was like, why, why isn't everyone using these manipulatives for math? Why isn't
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:39)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:39)
everyone? And so there's a a part of me when I when I am thinking about all three of my kids are newer variants in some
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:45)
Mm, mm.
Faith Clarke (18:46)
way. I like what if the world, what if it was more deli style?
where all of the riches for every identity
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:53)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (18:54)
exists and is available for all of us to benefit from. And so
Sydney Elaine Butler (18:59)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (19:00)
so why what we do when we kind of center one identity is that we trim everything down so that we have no we have no we have no nuance, we have no innovation.
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:10)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (19:11)
It's just this one white wall.
when really
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:14)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (19:15)
there could be so much more as we give
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:18)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (19:19)
space for all of our identities. What do you think people need to understand that's getting in their way of making space for all of our identities?
Sydney Elaine Butler (19:29)
I think the biggest thing is that people really don't want to look at either side of the the they don't want to look at their privileges and they don't want to look at their oppressions. Because we all as human beings have face both. No one is exempt from it, right? And and I think people
Like we all like I'm like I like even when I was speaking at the that annual general meeting that I was talking about earlier, I recognized my privilege in that space to I was like, Yes, I have my lived experience, but I was like, Who else isn't at the table? Right? And I think that's what's so often missing, that we don't I think people don't want to be uncomfortable and they don't want to kinda I hate that quote, the bite the hand that feeds you kinda quote. But like really and not understanding that
Again, where do I fit into this? Where who's n again, who's not the table? What whose voices are missing? What and like you were saying, Faith, like it helps why doesn't why don't we do this for everyone? Or like, excuse me, why what's why is the the way we do things the standard way standard way of doing things? Why is that the expectation? Why that lack of innovation? We know innovation.
is what drives so many things. But why is there we praising innovation in some aspects, in some aspects it's frowned upon and disencouraged?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:52)
I I love that you're at the both of you with what you're saying there around this like under No,
Sydney Elaine Butler (20:58)
I'll be right back. My dog wants to be let out now.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:00)
you're fine. This understanding of adding other people to the table, the additional perspectives it brings, but the innovation that can come from that, the ways that it can help everyone at the table. I think
Sydney Elaine Butler (21:13)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14)
dominant culture.
And I think part of the problem is that dominant culture is looking at bringing everyone to the table as an act of generosity, as like a kindness that's
Sydney Elaine Butler (21:25)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:26)
being extended, as a something that they're doing to as like, well, we'll do that to help others, right? Like there's this like when it's happening,
Sydney Elaine Butler (21:34)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:35)
it feels as
Faith Clarke (21:35)
Safe or complex still.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:36)
exactly. It's this like, we're doing this for you. And I just love this like, how do we shift that?
thinking to help people understand because I again we've seen it when women are included at the table, outcomes are better. And it's not just because it's women, but it's because there are more perspectives that widen the perspective and create better outcomes. And why wouldn't that also then extend to every other sort of identity? But how do we help reframe that for people to get them to see that instead of it being like this thing that we do because it's like
the quote unquote right thing to do. But actually it benefits us too. Because I think ultimately, like that framing, as much as we may not
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:20)
like it in the world we live in, like people want
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:22)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:22)
to feel like, what am I getting out of this? Right? Because otherwise it becomes this nice to do thing when we have time, when we have money, when we whatever. But if it's like, no, there's an actual benefit to unfortunately in capitalism, your bottom line,
People are gonna be more likely to take action. So I just love the framing that you're both bringing of like, it's not like there's better outcomes for everyone at the table
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:45)
when everyone's at the table. I don't have a question, just a reflection of a thought of like I I just think that's so important.
Sydney Elaine Butler (22:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:51)
And I don't think that that's what dominant culture thinks. I don't know, Sydney is you're out doing that work. Is that are you experiencing dominant culture in the same way I am, where they're still seeing the bringing everyone to the table as more like,
This is a thing that's like yeah.
Sydney Elaine Butler (23:04)
I think so. And I think that's
like organizations like why like you know they're just doing one-off trainings about like racism or disability and all these different LGBT and all these different things, right? And it just like because they're still siloing it, because it's like I still have generosity to talk about these topics instead of recognizing how it's actually impacting the day to day of these you know employees that are marginalized, racialized, neurodivergent, disabled, all these different things. And
I think we keep getting so close and and we n we everyone keeps complaining about how the system's broken. But then it's actually those in like again, the the nitty gritty of the systems and pulling it apart, actually naming and calling out and doing something about the gaps that exist within the inqu inequities within these systems. But people there's so much work to be done and there's so much but then there's also the mentality, it's not if it's not broken, don't fix it. But it's like who like
it's broken in some regard 'cause it's some people aren't in the you know, being considered. And I think so many times like I it's it's so siloed and again not understanding the full picture that someone's bringing or not understanding h the the magnitude of what's happening. And so really not being able to pull back those layers, really get to the bottom of it, get to
the organization is like, well we're making a profit. Like you're saying it's at the end of the day in capitalism, it's about the bottom line. So it's like we're still making a profit. We're we're, you know, we we're reaching people, we're doing all these things. But and then I think it also goes back to that disconnect between that and safety and not understanding how they actually go hand in hand and how just because something is, you know, again the bottom of the line's okay, does it go hand is peop do people feel safe? And vice versa.
Right. And I think it is there's so much work to be done and I think other people are little overwhelmed by that as well, that they're just it's very surface level fixing instead of going deeper.
Faith Clarke (25:10)
Yeah. I think part of the thing is that it's an ethical issue.
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:15)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (25:15)
because you really there is enough research on all types of what diversity creates in terms of innovation, improve bottom line, improve retention,
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (25:25)
like improve psychological safety. Like it's
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:27)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (25:28)
you know, it's it's well established, but if you benefit from the system that is you can't imagine improve like this is
This is good. Like, why would I inconvenience myself? And I think to confronting the fact that there is a value hierarchy, and the people who sit in positions of privilege because of the you know the
Sydney Elaine Butler (25:52)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (25:53)
composite of their privilege identities, yeah, they they have to admit that some
as in animal farm, some animals are more equal than others. Like
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:03)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (26:04)
the the before until you can admit that, then some
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:07)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (26:07)
of the rest of the conversation won't go any further than just duplicating
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:11)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (26:11)
kind of patting. But I when you are interacting with clients in the workplace, what's
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:16)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (26:17)
the thing that you wish they would take further? What's one specific example of something you wish they would dial in a little bit more and that would really make the difference?
Sydney Elaine Butler (26:27)
A lot of what I'm s like a l I I do a lot of policy work with organizations and a lot of times it's just again, surface level, it's just copy and pasting legislation. It's not it's like, okay, but how does it really apply to your people? How is it impacting people? Because, you know, they say, we did a policy on it but it you know, nothing and but they look at it more again from that compliance led
with legislation, but it's like, okay, that's great and all, but the legislation is still behind or very vague in its language. And so again, how are you actually tailoring it to your organization? Is it again the language that you're using? Is it in p is it plain language? Is it available in accessible formats? And so I think really going beyond the surface and really looking at
And so now what I'm doing with organizations and even I recognize my own shortcoming because when I first started, I was like, I you know, I'm the expert even though I'm I'm in the continuously to learn. But I was like, I have the lived experience of b having disabilities of being neurodivergent. I'm also racialized, all I have all these different things. And then it would go well and I would and I would work with a team of d diverse other people that didn't have the same experience that I did. So we could have those diverse perspectives and then actually flip the switch.
like a year and a half ago, I like, wait, we need to really hear from the people. And so it's like, I'm gonna do focus groups now at the organization to collect that data about how they feel the policy is being implemented, how it's affecting them on the daily basis. And if they people wanna come to the focus groups and share, they wanna come off camera and come on come off mute and share, great. If they wanna put on the chat, if they want to even just send me an email anonymously, right? Have anonymous forums that they send in instead 'cause again it goes goes back to safety and how are we actually gathering data
from the workers that are living this this policy and breathing this policy every single day, how is it either possibly 'cause it can be positive impacts from the policy or negatively impacting them or it's like, hey, there is some positive, there's also some negatives, because there's again the nuance to the human experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:29)
I think people are often afraid of that feedback, I would imagine.
Sydney Elaine Butler (28:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:34)
might be part of why people don't listen or don't seek it out is because what if it confirms some of my fears about how I'm showing up or
Sydney Elaine Butler (28:42)
Mm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:44)
you know, about how we are performing and that. And you know, it's this is all I I'm excited to have a conversation about issues around neurodiversity, around issues of
Sydney Elaine Butler (28:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:54)
disability.
Because I will say in my own journey of kind of unlearning and relearning, this has been an it's been an area for me that's been sort of the on the lagging end of my own journey, right?
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:06)
where I've race, gender, and sex and some of these
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:10)
things came before disability. And because I think it's just it's not an identity I thought I held, although I am learning that I think I actually do hold a bit of a neurodiverse,
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:19)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:21)
identity. I I I haven't been diagnosed, but I believe I have ADHD. And I think it's one of those things of the masking that we do for so long and not realizing
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:29)
it and whatever. But I think, you know, I think I've been afraid often in the same ways I think when people start on their own unlearning journey around an issue like race or gender or whatever,
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:37)
Yeah. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:39)
where there's that fear of I'm gonna have confirmed for me my lack of understanding, my the ways that I've caused harm.
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:48)
All of that. And we don't want to know it. So we it's like we just shut it down. Yeah.
Sydney Elaine Butler (29:52)
Yeah, it's like a s it's like a s like a shield and like I
even I w I coach managers and even going into organizations and they're like, I don't wanna say the wrong thing, I don't wanna say the wrong thing. And there's so much fear and it's like 'cause it's twenty twenty six and the end generation's gonna like cancel us or whatever the whatever it is they say. and then
It's like being transparent. Be being transparent that you're learning unlearn learning, unlearning, you're learning about yourself. And I think people are so afraid to be wrong and to be transparent because of what it the implications and again the in the kind of a mirror looking back at you, right? But I think as long as you're trying as like people
Like I have a I have a good friend and she kee she sometimes she says my pronouns. She's like, I'm a day, but I said she I'm like, it's okay, take a f like you're trying. That's all I can ask of you. Right? And you can see when someone generally is caring, when someone's generally trying to try to do better, right? And I think so a lot of times people
also like I think also managers specifically are afraid of being ridiculed. They put it on a they're put on a pedestal, right? It's like you're still just a human being at the end of the day. Yes, you're the manager. You know, my partner recently became a manager and so terrified of messing up and, you know, interacting with people, but I give people people traits and s people skills. But still again that harm, don't want to cause harm to another person. And it's like being able to have these uncomfortable conversations to get to the root of the matter.
And I think that's what the real work is, but sometimes people wanna skip to the good part, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:33)
Yes, I think we just want to skip to the good part, but you can't just skip there, can you? You have to do the messy part to
Sydney Elaine Butler (31:37)
Mm. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:39)
get to the good part, but I don't I totally relate to
Faith Clarke (31:40)
You know what?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:41)
that.
Faith Clarke (31:41)
The messy part and the good part are the same part. Like there is no skipping to the
Sydney Elaine Butler (31:46)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (31:47)
good part. All like, and that's the thing that we're we're trying to have these clinical. I was watching Little House on the Prairie last night. Apparently they did
Sydney Elaine Butler (31:55)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (31:56)
a new thing. So because when I grew up, I was watching the you know the old version. And there's something about life captured 200 years ago or
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:06)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (32:06)
however long it was. It's just messy.
It's just it's just random freak things happen and people get hurt. And I think we are trying to create a story of modern life as if that's none of those things are true. I can know the right thing, I can say the right words, I can be the right way, I can have the right conflict navigation process, I can I can learn the things and therefore nothing bad will happen. And it's just perfectionism, which is part of you know supremacist ideology.
When really, yeah, no, it's all messy and I'm gonna mess up, I'm gonna say the wrong
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:41)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (32:42)
thing, and so are you, and can we just like everybody farts? Can we just be human?
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:49)
Speak for yourself, Faith.
Faith Clarke (32:51)
Like only me. Can we be human together?
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:55)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:55)
But that's hard and scary
Sydney Elaine Butler (32:57)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:59)
and sort of related. I want because you were talking about safety. And I think safety is such a big part of these conversations.
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:03)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:06)
And something that I've as somebody as part of, you know, you know, a white racialized person and and the part of that dominant culture, where I've been coming to with this, and I'm still sitting with it, but lately
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:18)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:18)
I've just been this feeling of like what I I think part of it is the idea of safe.
And safety and like creating safe spaces. In some ways it almost feels like it's part of that perfectionism faith that you're talking about of like I
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:29)
have to get this place where I have to create a space that's completely safe or I've failed. I've done it wrong. What does that say about me? All of the things, right? And it's like, could we just start to use language like safer? because the truth is I don't know that I can. I don't right as I sit right now, I don't believe I can ever create a truly safe space for a black
Sydney Elaine Butler (33:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:46)
woman.
I don't think I ever create a truly safe space for a trans woman. I don't think I can ever create a truly safe space for an autistic person without having in and honestly, even if I lived that experience, I don't know that I could create a safe space then for a black autistic woman, right? As a white, let's say I were an white autistic woman. So I think I've just been sitting lately with what is it, what happens in my body and in my thought process and in my
Sydney Elaine Butler (34:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:08)
actions when I sit with the idea of creating safer spaces? Like what is that?
do. And I don't know that that's the quote unquote
Sydney Elaine Butler (34:15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:15)
right answer. Maybe there aren't right answers, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on that of safe, safety, safer
Sydney Elaine Butler (34:20)
Yeah, I was I was gonna
put the question back to you both. It's just like what so I think ev every single person on this earth has a different understanding of what safe means to them. And I think that's what you're kind of getting at, Becky. And I think like what what does safe mean to you? And even just cre I think by creating safer spaces, it's like allowing people to say share with the share with people what safe means to them. Right? Also have I live with complex PTSD. And so what does it mean to actually
being safe spaces. What does it mean to show up as yourself? And I think, you know, I'm trying to advocate for people showing up as the most of themselves and be the best selves, right? But it's it's scary to be your false authentic self to people. Again, if you don't know them or you know, it the fear of being judged. So again, how are you creating safer spaces? And how are we allowing people to share what safe means to them and not
Yes, there's like the definition of safe, but it's like there's so much nuance again to that. And I keep saying that word today, but it's really applicable to what we're talking about today. And really just how are we allowing people to show up how they want to show up? And I think that goes into the safer spaces. And how are we allowing people to communicate how they need to communicate and how to express themselves and how are we recognizing
We could we can do all we can sometimes. Like even myself. Like I was I did an event and I you know, I was creating a safer space, but harm so happened and it was n you know, I didn't directly cause the harm, but I created I hosted that event. So I still had to take responsibility for that. And so how does that impact how someone's not gonna view me? It's like I you know, it's like you didn't directly cause the harm, but I was at your event that you were hosting and it was harmed by someone else that was attending, right?
And so how are we again having these conversations? How are we having conversations around safety or, you know, trying we're that we're trying our best you know?
Faith Clarke (36:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:23)
Well,
I immediately think of faith because faith has been
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:26)
the best model for me on belong creating belonging because that to me is one of the things that faith that you do really well, which is like setting the expectations. It's I I think what you're saying is
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:37)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37)
what I'm hearing is like expectation setting from the beginning, which
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:41)
I don't know if we did I find like because I think I was kind of
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:43)
the one at the beginning of this conversation before we hit record. But the goal there is just kind of to help you understand what we think this conversation's gonna look like.
Is there anything that you need? Anything that would help you?
Sydney Elaine Butler (36:54)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:54)
and it does feel like that, like co-creation. And that's what faith is like is so good at co-creation. And I've been learning from faith on co-creation. So I'm guessing you have thoughts, faith, because I feel like that's at the heart of what you do when it comes to belonging. And it feels like exactly what you're saying, Sydney, is like, how do we co-create a space? And I loved what you said that it's not about showing up as your best self necessarily, but how do you want? How do I help you?
Or what can we do here to make sure you can show up as the self you want to be today? Because my best self is not always there. Like Papa Smurf is rarely around.
Faith Clarke (37:25)
Best today.
Sydney Elaine Butler (37:26)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (37:27)
Best in this minute right now, 'cause
Becky Mollenkamp (37:29)
Exactly.
How can I jump as the self I'd like to be right now, given my capacity, given the state of the world, given a million things, like what would help? And I I think that's I love that framing that I'm gonna hold on to that. But Faith, I'm sure you have thoughts.
Faith Clarke (37:42)
I think my own I don't think it's possible to make safe spaces any more than I think it's possible for the world to be quote unquote safe. You know, I like what random
Sydney Elaine Butler (37:50)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (37:50)
freak thing can happen and hit the car and then, you know, but what I think we can do is pay some damn attention. Pay attention like there's
Sydney Elaine Butler (37:58)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (37:59)
a way that the the person with multiple marginalized identities is the one paying all of the attention.
'Cause I've I'm paying attention to my safety. I'm trying to make sure you understand me. I'm trying to make sure I don't go here. I'm masking this identity. I'm paying attention. And I think it this the spaces are so much more
Integrated and inclusive when everybody holds the weight of attention. Just look at me. You don't even have to know, I don't even have to have disclosed all of what I need. But if you're looking at me, if you're really paying attention, you will begin to see what I need. And people have said to me, I don't know how to help moms of kids with autism. I don't know anything about that. I'm like, knock on the door and come looking, stand in my kitchen and just watch.
If you watch, you'll see. And so I think when I talk with people and when when I'm sharing about creating space where we can all thrive together, it is about cultivating a certain kind of attending to
Sydney Elaine Butler (38:57)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (38:57)
people that and mutual attending. Because again, those of us who have multiple marginalized identities, we're the
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:04)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:05)
ones used to offering care, attending, and protecting ourselves. So what I crave is being in space where
the attention I give to others is offered back to me. And so somebody says, I I know that you get freaked out when you have to look a little bit to the left. I I have vertigo and it it's affected
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:25)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:26)
when I glance to the left.
So I'ma just put the screen to the right. I'm like, that's that's the most delightful thing that I you actually
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:34)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (39:34)
notice that. and so for me it's I don't know that we can be safe, but I think when I am not safe and it was because you were careless, that that's a thing that feels really harmful
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:44)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (39:46)
to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:47)
Sydney, I heard you say
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:48)
almost the identical thing Faith said about, and I'm and I'm sure it's probably some issue some component there of some shared multiple overlapping marginalized identities.
Sydney Elaine Butler (39:55)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:58)
Cause at the very beginning of this, you said that when you were young, it was like the expectation on you, or that you j whether it was an expectation or just what happened by the laws of the
Sydney Elaine Butler (40:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:08)
world, right? But like you were doing so much caretaking of others and attending to others'
Sydney Elaine Butler (40:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:11)
needs, and like you're wanting to help others still, but
I'm just curious how that lands with you because I have a feeling it's a similar thing of you just some of that is like I want my needs met once. That would feel great. Is that
Sydney Elaine Butler (40:25)
Well,
it's it's so it's it's still a process, I think to
understand that my needs are valid and I think as humans we like we want to give but sometimes it's like 'cause you like if you take you're selfish, right? and I had that in previous relationships, I've had that with some parent dynamics and another dynamics. And so just really sitting with it's like, no, I'm worthy. My needs are valid. I'm really sitting with that and I th like I
realize when I do take care of my needs or when I have other people like my my I have a lovely partner now that helps take care of my needs when I you know and really being like, my needs like I can take I deserve to take care of my own needs. I deserve to have other people support my needs if I need it. And but it's still sometimes that shame cycle is like
'Cause I for so long I was like, my needs aren't valid, right? And so really being able to be like, No, my needs are valid, what does it look like? And I even like wrote down I can write down continuously to myself to remind myself, 'cause it's a continuous practice that my needs can change and and and eval evolve and as I'm changing and as I'm evolving and that's okay.
Right. And we're const constantly evolving and changing as human beings and that means our needs and things change. And so really sitting with that and to be able to do the work of helping others, of helping people know that their needs are valid. I shouldn't notice that for myself first. And I'm transparent that I still struggle with it some days. Like last year I did a program called Employment Works that was a part time job and it was helping neurodivergent youth
get job opportunities and help them with their resumes and help them like see building up their confidence in certain areas and working with them. And I was working with one individual and he really struggled with the self-worth. And I was like some days I still really struggle with them. I had to struggle with it like yesterday before I came in here today. And he I was like, I was literally struggling communicating my needs to my partner. And my partner
mo validates my needs all the time, but I'm still struggling based on past experiences and I can see that's kind of happening with you. And he looked at me and he was just like, What? Like he's like, Well you like you have a job, like he's like, I know these things. I'm like, I still struggle with these things and just really I think putting the human back into it. I think the heart of belonging, the heart of all these different things we're talking about today is really what does it mean to be a human being? What does it mean to
take care of others if and take care of yourself and really how are you like even f like you were talking about masking too, Becky and just like you mask for so long. Like I remember I I knew I was autistic, but I was still masking for so long though. It's like Am I? Like I was I just making it up, you know. I know I'm just I just have depression, all these different things. And then actually during twenty twenty, during COVID, the height of COVID, I really I
I was so busy because I was working school I was going to school full time, was working almost full time hours to pay for school. And I when I finally had a moment to just sit and be by myself, I was like, huh. Like and I starting to unmask, starting to get to know myself. And I think so many times we're in such hurry to get to know everyone else and not get to know ourselves. And so
I was gonna ask you both, just like how do you get to know yourselves? Like how do you take care of yourself to show up for your best to be your best self in other spaces? Because I think again, we can create safer spaces, but how are we creating spaces and how are we creating spaces where we feel like we can't show up? How are we filling up our own cup first to show up how we wanna show up?
Becky Mollenkamp (44:07)
I think it's really rude to call two hosts out on something you know they don't I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:10)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:13)
I'm being called out because I don't do the best job of t of filling my own cup. Although I I know, right? Well, here we are. Exactly. I'm
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:17)
I I yeah. It's it's practice. It's practice. That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:21)
getting better. for me it's alone. I need solitude. I am such
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:25)
a deep introvert that I need a lot of solitude to be able to refill my cup. There's no nothing that refills my cup better than being alone. And so for me it's been having to
assert boundaries that
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:37)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:37)
that make that happen because I live with two people who don't have the same need. And instead of them getting their needs met from each other, it feels like they both want me to fill the need of
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:48)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:49)
togetherness. and so I've been having to more and more do education of why I need why my needs look like they do, or just that they look like they do. And then
Sydney Elaine Butler (44:58)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:59)
sort of asserting that this is what I need and communicating that
It's about me, not them, and all of that. And I'm getting better at that. I am getting better at taking more time for myself. and and trying to
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:09)
Clap clap clap.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:10)
thank you. And reducing that feeling of the selfishness, because I relate to that, Sydney, so much because I have a lot of messaging that I was given very early, blatant your selfish messaging,
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:21)
that I'm fighting all the time. So I'm I still just like you, it's a daily fight of of feeling this like, am I allowed?
quote unquote
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:30)
to assert this need, right? To advocate for this need. and some days I do a great job and sometimes I don't. And that's also okay, right? Yeah. Faith, what about
Sydney Elaine Butler (45:38)
Yeah. Thank you for sharing.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:40)
you? I mean, Faith just moved to another country. So, well, return to another country. So that's part of it, I think. Yeah.
Faith Clarke (45:45)
Move, it's a big move.
I think what I've done more recently, I'll just say that I got a baptism and fire is how it felt when my kids were.
seven, four and one, with the first one being autistic and me not knowing what the others had
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:02)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (46:03)
going on.
And just recognizing that I was on the edge. Like this, this, this, this was, it was a very vulnerable time. Like I hadn't experienced the type of anxiety, almost PTSD. Like
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:17)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (46:18)
I woke up startled with my heart racing. And it was it was mind-noming.
steady, constant work. And I I I recognize that if I don't manage this, meaning if my body doesn't manage this, everybody suffers. And so
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:35)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (46:36)
at that point I had a quick induction into you better take care of yourself. And I remember just coming up with some principles for doing that. And did it very impoorly, but but the thing, the beautiful thing for me with my kids was that
they did horribly when I was doing horribly. So I would be like, Why is everybody
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:52)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (46:54)
why does everybody look like they're losing their mind?
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:56)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (46:57)
I'm I need rest. I
Sydney Elaine Butler (46:59)
It was that mirror,
yeah.
Faith Clarke (47:00)
Food, I need water, I need pause, I need quiet. And so for me now, I I tend to need the external mirror back to me a lot.
Sydney Elaine Butler (47:09)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (47:09)
and so I'm learning to listen, first of all, to to ask myself, who is the mirror, right? I need people around me who's gonna mirror back to me so that I will take care of myself. And in my current relationship, my partner does that, and it's that's a real gift to me to be able to say it's three o'clock. Looks like you might be heading to that ledge that you fall off at about 3:30.
Sydney Elaine Butler (47:28)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (47:30)
so who do I invite into closed space is part of my own self-care because yeah, I'm not I don't practice it enough, number one. But number two, can I hear myself? So, like if I wake up and I have a meeting with Becky and then I'm like, I feel like crap this morning. I don't say, Hey Becky, I feel like crap, but I'm also like we have the relationship that says, Yeah, we're gonna listen to our bodies first. So we no, maybe we're not meeting. And I think how who do we have partnership, business relationships with who are our clients?
clients.
Sydney Elaine Butler (47:59)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (47:59)
But if I have a client that I can't say my son didn't sleep last night and therefore I didn't sleep. I can't meet with you now, then that's not a good client for me. And so it's it's for me, it's been about controlling or managing
Sydney Elaine Butler (48:09)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (48:12)
and choosing my environment just so I can get the kind of care I need.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:17)
I love that. How about you, Sydney?
Sydney Elaine Butler (48:17)
Yeah, I th th thank you
both Yeah, I it was it's I have a quick client story that I thought of when Faith was speaking. So last year I was working with a client working on I was so I was first we audited their policies and then it was like we need an accommodation policy was an international company, wrote an accommodation policy and we're in the process, then we had to meet to go over the we were gonna do training to roll out the policy for both the HR team, the managers and the all staff and
I I struggled with chronic pain and so I was having a chronic pain moment and I was like, no, don't tell just push through, just push I like, wait, but with Lily meeting to talk like Lily wrote an accommodation policy, talking about chronic pain in that policy. If they don't like, they have to get it, right? And so sent the them emails like, Hey, this is what's going on. Didn't even go into the nitty gritty of the details 'cause that's you know, what I choose to share.
And so you know, you get to choose what you share to people and how you present certain things. And they're like, Yep, no problem. They're like don't and I was like, I said I even asked in the email like, when would you like to reschedule? Just to like, you know, so be professional. And they're like, send us an email when you feel when you feel up to it again. No no rush, you know, when you feel and it was such a relief, you know, and it was also this was
Also, I lost my nana last year and so I think it was also chronic pain mixed with the grief of losing my nana and just having a real human moment of struggle and to be to be able to have a client that understood like don't let me schedule anything right now. When you feel better, just send send us an email, we'll figure it out then, take care of yourself. It was basically and I think
I through that I really learned that I was like, I gave my person self permission to be like, I know I can't I can't do this meeting today. And so when you start giving yourself permission to actually take care of yourself, to practice self care, to
I think I think a lot of times people th are worried that other people aren't gonna give them that grace to do that. But I think when you start giving yourself the grace, and again it's a practice, like some days I'm like I s I still struggle with it. Can we tell them like I shouldn't have said this like this is a different client, they may not respond the same way, but I'm like if they respond a certain way, that that tells me things and I then I don't wanna work with them again in the future, you know? Or e or people I wanna interact with, like the family members or friends or people I thought were my friends, all these different things.
Right. And so just by giving myself permission to be where I'm at that day and be as transparent as I choose to be and have a plan in place. Like I even have a self-care to-do list now. So instead of I have things that I am reactive to depending on how I'm showing up that day.
But I I try to be proactive in my self care. So that includes like doing my stretches, taking my dog for a walk, cuddling my dog, you know, little things like that. Even I have like brushing my teeth, 'cause sometimes again with being near I suck suffer from executive dysfunction. And so having me just brushing my teeth and having stickers to go along with that and having different things in place to I think self care was kind of like sp it's spa days and spending lots of money, but that's
that's not accessible, that's not every day like it can be that, but what does it actually look like on a day how are you maintaining yourself on a day to day basis? And how are you creating space for yourself and allowing other people to give you that space that you need?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:41)
I I love that. And I wanted to share really quickly before we wind up that, before we wind down the conversation, going back to the who's the thing at the table and when everyone's at the table, everyone benefits. Similar to what you're talking about, I was on a call where the premier, the speaker, the reason everyone was in the room, hundreds of people were in the room, maybe
Sydney Elaine Butler (51:56)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:59)
even thousands were in the room, was to see Res McKenicum speak,
Sydney Elaine Butler (52:02)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:03)
author of My Grandmother's Hands. And, you know, his whole work is around somatic experiences.
And it was clear he was tired and wasn't feeling well. And so the host, who I finally have remembered who it was, and I feel bad that every time I've told the story, I've never said who because I couldn't remember. But it was Corine Bell from Rooted Global Village. And it was one of their events that everyone was there to see this person. And within the first two questions, she she became aware that it was clear he wasn't feeling his best, but he was gonna push through because he had said he'd be there and there was thousands of people watching him. And she said, Are you?
How are you feeling in your body? Right. And he said, I have a head, I have a really bad headache and I haven't had enough sleep. I've been on this book tour or whatever. I think it was for second book. and she said, I'm gonna stop us and I want you to go get sleep. That's what you need right now.
Sydney Elaine Butler (52:47)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:48)
It's clear you need rest, right? There were thousands of people in that room that had were
Sydney Elaine Butler (52:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:52)
there to see this person, and she ended the conversation. He would have gone on. He said, No, no, no, I can I can continue. And she said, I know you can, but that's clearly not what you need, right? Like you need rest, and I want
Sydney Elaine Butler (53:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:02)
We need to model what we're here to talk about. And that room could have turned and become horrible, but instead what happened was people started to share their own stories of having been seen, of having been held, of having been cared for, of how they want to model that in rooms. It turned into one of the most beautiful
Sydney Elaine Butler (53:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:21)
experiences I had ever had. And I was there to see Resma. And I was disappointed when Resma left. And yet it became a richer, more
I I don't know that I would have remembered what Rezma said. This is has to be five, seven, eight years ago. I
Sydney Elaine Butler (53:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:37)
wouldn't remember what he said, but I will never forget that moment. And we all are better from that, of this, of that like modeling it, doing it, what it brings to the table for everyone. So I love that you shared that. because I think it's, yeah, when we can do it, when we can, when we can.
Ask for what we need or give others. I like I think it's what Sfaith's saying too. It's anticipating someone else's needs and and then being able to help facilitate that instead of waiting for Resma to have to say, My head just hurts too bad I can't do this, right?
Sydney Elaine Butler (54:02)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:04)
so thank you for that. unless anyone has anything urgent or like they Yeah, please go ahead. Cause otherwise I was gonna wind us down, but I don't wanna wind us down you have something else to say.
Sydney Elaine Butler (54:08)
W I I was just gonna just quick just a quick just
a quick th just like this past weekend I was so I was talking to my partner on the phone and at moments like I think my headphones come out like they're also listening to something else and so I'm like, Can you hear me? Like I'm repeating myself and I'm just getting frustrated Right? And then they were like c can can you like
Say something and then like speaking, speaking and they're like, Well, I don't like I don't know if you're speaking, I don't know if so they're like if you if if you're speaking and I'm not responding that can you send me a text? And then and then it's just like and can we do that mo and then
Did a text, tried again, could finally hear me. And we just like, okay, if from now on, if I c if I you're saying something multiple times and I not giving you a response, it's not because I'm ignoring you, because again, sometimes it's like am they're ignoring me, like the silent treatment, because I got the silent treatment before in my life. Instead of assuming I'm giving you the silent treatment, assuming the worst, send me a text and can you hear me? And then we can and then be like, No, I can't hear you, and we can try and figure it out.
Right. And that we're gonna do that moving forward. Right. And we've been together six years and we and this is an issue that's recently come up sometimes. And then and so it's like, hey, no, if something just send me a text to see if just testing the waters and seeing if I generally cannot hear you and then ask the question or send it you can send the question in this in the text, or you know, I can say no and then you can try maybe try again, see if I can now hear you, if I was now my attention's back on you.
Or if it's actually a technical issue, is it just you know? And so that was really that was really pointing to me this past weekend of how recognizing someone's needs but also and what it means to actually have your needs met.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:55)
Yeah, such a gift.
Faith Clarke (55:55)
Yeah, and and to
feel that safety to request. Yeah, I want I want it this way and in the future that way and to be,
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:04)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (56:05)
you know, so precise. But yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:08)
Yeah.
Okay, so we're gonna finish with a yes and otherwise because this is what we're now calling these conversations.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:14)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:16)
So this is a time to play. You don't take it all too seriously. You don't have to get it there's no right and wrong.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:21)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:24)
Because well, first is just what are you saying yes to right now.
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:28)
Mm-hmm. What I'm saying yes to right now is taking care of myself.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:33)
And what's the and?
Sydney Elaine Butler (56:34)
And
and that w and creating routines that really help serve me do like I even like this morning for example, like some again being a business one, being a
I get a lot of ema like I got two new emails come up. It like and sometimes I'd be like reply to them just to get, you know, out of sight, you know, before they get out of sight out mind. But Lily was like, there's a thing called me time, and you can put different apps that you really want to focus on. So it's like I only had like my journaling apps, I have workout apps on my phone. So only those I can access to in that time. And that I was like, huh. I could I think I could already feel a difference. So
Becky Mollenkamp (57:13)
Love
that. And the last one's the one that's a little more open for interpretation, I think, but it's the otherwise. So what's
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:18)
the otherwise?
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:20)
But otherwise.
Otherwise, I feel like it
I'll get I'll I'll lose
track of what's important and that's my health and myself, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (57:29)
Thank you for sharing, Sadni.
Faith Clarke (57:30)
You
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:30)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (57:31)
I just want to mirror something back that we started the conversation about your helping people. We're ending the conversation about you resourcing, you allowing yourself to be resourced. and just the beautiful synergy that you mentioned about the giving and the receiving, and just
Sydney Elaine Butler (57:48)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (57:49)
yeah, we landed in a place. Your whole yes and otherwise is about this filling up of your own tank, which is
Yeah, so many of us weren't allowed even to fill our tank. And
Sydney Elaine Butler (58:01)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (58:01)
so here this this beautiful moment of you owning that. So thank you so much for sharing that with us live.
Sydney Elaine Butler (58:08)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:09)
And where is the best place for people to learn more about you, Sydney, and about Accessible Creates?
Sydney Elaine Butler (58:15)
Yes, so there's an Accessible Crates website called accessiblecrates.ca. And then you can also find me on at LinkedIn at Sydney Elaine Butler.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:23)
Awesome. Thank you for your time and for this beautiful conversation. And thank you, Faith, too.
