WEBVTT
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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to this episode of Wise Scientists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My name is David Lorimer.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great pleasure to introduce my very old friends, Ravi Ravindra and Bernard Carr.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Ravi, I've known since 1988, and Bernard, I think, since not very much after that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I met Bernard first in Cambridge in 1979.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So let's even longer ago.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, we're here in the theme of wise scientists, and I'm going to hand over to Ravi who I think is ready with his first question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was just really going to ask Bernard.
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[SPEAKER_02]: How would you, as it were, recognize a wise scientist?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Why would you say somebody is a wise scientist and somebody is not?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is a very interesting question.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It also relates to the question of, I think, of spirituality, how you, whether you're, it can be a spiritual scientist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, if a spiritual scientist will be somebody who has an understanding of, not just the theory of physics itself, but also has some concept of meaning,
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[SPEAKER_01]: the meaning behind the universe, some view of the ethical implications of the scientific view, the importance of humanity and its applications.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Someone who realizes that it's not just a matter of truth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To me the path to truth is just as important as the final truth because we may not even get to the final truth They may not even be a final theory of physics So to me the wise scientists this sees the path of science is a sort of pilgrimage
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[SPEAKER_01]: The Y scientists has to be humble, has to realize that we may never have a final theory of physics, I'm a physicist or a final theory of science, because science goes through the sequence of paradigm shifts, and so the Y scientists realize that each paradigm shift is just one more step if you like towards the final destination, but
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[SPEAKER_01]: It may not be the ultimate reality, in fact, you're almost undoubtedly isn't the final reality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The wise scientist is humble and realises that he or she can be wrong.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, most theories of science actually will physically turn out to be wrong in the end, rightly, solely as one step towards the final truth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore,
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[SPEAKER_01]: even the greatest minds make mistakes and in fact it's important to make mistakes because you learn often through your mistakes more than you learn through doing things correctly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think even in Buddhism you have the idea that it's useful to go the wrong way because you learn more by taking the run path and by taking the correct path.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, those are some of the aspects of a wise scientist, I would say, a humility and appreciation of how science must be applied for the good of humanity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all scientific progress has technological implications, which may be positive and negative, but I think it's very important to be able to apply those technological implications in a way which is for the good of humanity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And also I suppose the wise scientists should be motivated by compassion, you know, that the purpose of what is the purpose of science of our, the purpose of our expanding knowledge in some sense, it's that the universe should become aware of itself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in other words, the wise scientists should realize that his individual efforts are just part about his individual consciousness, if you like it, is just part, he's in service to a much larger universal consciousness which is trying to become aware of itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just ask one other question, but I think it's relevant before Ravi comes in again, is do you think any final theory of physics can exclude consciousness?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Personally, no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To me, I think what we talk about, post-materialist science, the whole point about post-materialist science, is that it must accommodate consciousness, it must accommodate first person, as well as the third person description of the world,
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[SPEAKER_01]: My own view is that we've got our two rapes, there is a physics at the moment, quantum theory and relativity theory.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The final theory of physics is trying to marry those together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my view, my hope, if you like, is that that final theory of physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: is going to accommodate, well, it's going to accommodate consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, that's not a view that all physicists would accept.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are other physicists like Roger Penrose who do think it is fundamental, but nevertheless, that is my personal view that the final paradigm of physics, or not even the final paradigm, maybe the next paradigm of physics, is going to be one which is going to accommodate consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, in some sense, we already have readers to think that from quantum theory that consciousness may play a role in the universe, but I would say that quantum theory doesn't give a complete description of mind and consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It shows that consciousness is relevant to the universe, but it doesn't give an explicit
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[SPEAKER_01]: description of mind in physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the final theory of physics, I won't keep saying the final theory of physics, but the next theory of physics, is going to accommodate not only consciousness, but I would say mental and spiritual experience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But in the light of what you just said about why scientists, how would you respond to this remarkable John Puleani which I quoted, namely that in the
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[SPEAKER_02]: science had done more harm to humanity than anything else, so that means that we have not any way scientists, essentially.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well I would say that every scientific paradigm and I'm talking as a physicist, I'll be talking about physical parameters, I would say that all progress in physics always has
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[SPEAKER_01]: technological implications.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And those technological implications will always have positive and negative aspects.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, what we can talk about, obviously, atomic power, we all know that a discovery of the structure of the atom and the atomic forces, that may be our salvation in the long term, because we will have sources of atomic, after all, the sound is powered by atomic processes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that's the source of all life, and maybe the development of atomic power is going to be the salvation of life on earth, you know, it will provide our energies.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The energy you require to continue, but we also know that it's the source of the atomic bomb and it could be the end of humanity, the source of destruction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that's true of every development in science, that it's going to have both positive and negative implications.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we can think about this
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[SPEAKER_01]: understanding DNA may have tremendous benefits for curing diseases, but at the same time it needs to, you know, the horrors of eugenics and things like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important because we keep talking about the post-materialist paradigm, and the assumption always tends to be that, well, once we got the post-materialist paradigm accommodating,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's as simple as that because I think that even the post-materialist paradigm is going to have technological implications.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Of course it depends what that final paradigm is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well there won't be a final paradigm, surely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But because, you know, science is never complete.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I shouldn't keep saying the final paradigm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the next paradigm which is going to incorporate consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean the point is, I make a prediction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The post-materialist paradigm will only become popular if you're accepted by the mainstream.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When somebody's managed to apply technologically and
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[SPEAKER_01]: probably made a fortune, you know, we come a billion air out of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, although we might think of this next paradigm as being something which is incorporating spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It may be that it will only become commonly accepted when that someone's managed to make a fortune out of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and the musk if you like of the next generation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a rather strange mixture of the material and the spiritual domain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But we might assume that the technological implications are always positive.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it would be the post-materialist paradigm could have all sorts of negative implications as well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's get comes back to are you and are you going to use whatever development ethically or not?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Are you an ethical person?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you've already said that the wise person is ethical.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So obviously there's an ethical neutrality about the developments, but as you say, they may all be used for positive and negative.
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[SPEAKER_00]: purposes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Ravi, I was thinking that what point you often make is that the work on the spiritual work is work on being.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not work on being clever.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's work on trying to become wiser and what you'd like to pursue that and then bat it back to Bernard.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, connected with that really, I was going to ask Bernard if he himself has met some scientists or even historically, not necessarily met them, but has heard about them or read about them, who he would consider are wise scientists.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is interesting because
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[SPEAKER_01]: some of the greater scientists I wouldn't necessarily regard as wise.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if we take Stephen Hawking who I worked with, he was my PhD supervisor and friend.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he was a brilliant physicist, of course, and he made many important discoveries.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that when he got into
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[SPEAKER_01]: issues to do with philosophy and theology, for example, I don't think I disagree with them about many things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And as you probably know, he had an integrity towards philosophy, and he had his, he was, he was an atheist, he had an integrity towards spirituality and obviously I disagree about that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I suppose in a funny way, I would be inclined to say, Stephen, because of that,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe wasn't so wise.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He was brilliant, but not so wise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what about someone like Sir Arthur Eddington?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think he might qualify as a wise scientist?
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was a Quaker.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm tempted to say, and I'm not sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm tempted to say that someone who's got a spiritual aspect is more likely to be wise than somebody who is...
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[SPEAKER_01]: is atheistic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now that may be that's probably rather simplistic, but I made this link between wisdom and spirituality in some sense because it does seem to be spirituality is part of the wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well maybe Raviy himself is a wise scientist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh Raviy of course that is the answer that I shouldn't give them a straight away.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean let me say the following.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In a way, one of my great ambitions is to, I've always wanted to link the world of matter, the world of mind and the world of spirituality, and in academic terms, that corresponds if you like to science and philosophy and religious studies.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So part of my purpose in life has always been to try and link those three topics, and of course that relates to the scientific and medical network, which also links some
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[SPEAKER_01]: But actually the person who's done that far more successfully than me and in that sense is it's really my hero in a way is Ravi because Ravi is I think
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[SPEAKER_01]: the only person I know who's held positions in both in physics departments, philosophy departments, and religious studies departments.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, and to me, in some sense, that's why I have tremendous aberration for Avie.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He incorporates these three worlds, if you like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that wisdom, in some sense, is encapsulated in the fact that it does link those three worlds.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I gave an example of Stephen, who was a brilliant scientist, but not interested in philosophy, not interested in spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in that sense, I would say he wasn't so wise, but I have to be a little bit careful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean he was foolish, but he, I would say he was lacking something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the strange thing about Stephen,
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[SPEAKER_01]: is that although he wasn't really spiritual, I mean he looked down on spirituality and he was wasn't certainly not interested in following his spiritual path, he was nevertheless a spiritual inspiration.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, partly through his ideas in cosmology has spiritual implications, perhaps.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But also, of course, with his fight against his illness was a spiritual inspiration.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the strange thing about Stephen, he was quite convinced that when he died, he would most survived a consciousness after death.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the strange thing about Stephen, he was blessed by four popes,
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he ended up being in Westminster Abbey.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I've always said that even though he didn't believe in God and the afterlife, that if he gets to the early gates, he'll probably let him in any way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But what do you think, where would you put Martin Reese in this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know Martin very well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's obviously very astute.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he's quite a sensitive person in many ways.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I've certainly found a very kind.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he is a good friend and he's also, I think, you know, a great scientist, I would say he's more open to philosophical ideas and he cares a lot about the future of humanity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He writes a lot about the threats of humanity and things like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't really describe him as a spiritual person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He's always very diplomatic, you know, he does go through, he's like that, and he got the Templeton Prize too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in that sense, of course, that must be an element of spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that like Stephen, Martin was not really as so much a spiritual person, but he's open.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He's much more open to the sort of phenomena.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, as you know, I'm interested in psychical research because that is a sort of link between science and religion.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Stephen Hawking was very, he didn't believe in those phenomena.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't, he shouldn't be studied.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Martin,
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[SPEAKER_01]: probably doesn't believe it but he still thinks they should be studied because he thinks that you know there's this even if there's only a small probability there being real the implications if they were really so important that you should put happens into it anyway so in that sense I've always felt Martin wasn't a bit I had a broader range of interests
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what about John Paul Kinghorn?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, John, of course, I mean, he was a spiritual person because he gave up his professorship of physics to become a priest and then actually rose higher in the academic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: community, ironically, that way, then it became Master of Queens College, President of Queens College.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in a certain sense, he rose higher in the academic world than he would, and if he just stayed a professor.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, John is another of my heroes because he brings together science and spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, he comes from a specifically Christian perspective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He had a big effect on my life because he taught me, but also when I applied for a fellowship at Trinity, he was my champion because you had to have a champion to make your case.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I really enjoyed his insights about the leaks between science and spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And of course he also won the Temple of Prize.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he was very humble, I think, you know, he was very humble and that's why I always think humility is part of the wisdom, in some sense of a scientist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that Einstein, for example, certainly even,
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, he had a smooth review of God, but I would say he was a spiritual person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think an editing and spiritual aspects in a funny way, I tend to think that many of the greatest scientists have, if you like, a mystical or a spiritual side.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not all of them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the other, the other physicists I had huge respect for was Fiman.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But he again was, he was a brilliant physicist and with huge insights.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But again, completely opposed to what did he do with spirituality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think you would have described five of this humble, for example.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Ha.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think another point is that, you know, there's a book about the physicists who have actually been spiritual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Quite a lot of great physicists have been spiritual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's probably fair to say that the reason they are mystically inclined.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't directly come from their studies of the physical world, it comes from their own experience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think when you look at the physical world, if you are of a religious inclination, you will see evidence for the divine, if you're of an atheistic inclination, you will see evidence for the lack of divine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't actually think that you get evidence for the divine from the physical world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the evidence for the divine comes from the inner world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: from experience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the irony is is that in some sense I think in the final paradigm we're going to merge the outer world and the inner world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what the because if the final paradigm is going to accommodate mind, it has to say in some sense the outer universe and the inner universe are merged.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I think God, if whatever
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[SPEAKER_01]: because we're saying that the evidence for God comes from the inner world, not from the outer world, and yet the final paradigm is going to merge the inner and the outer world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I think if you like God, the consciousness is going to be part of that final paradigm.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's rather a long and involved answer to your question.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I have another question, which is from a practical point of view, how do we assist or assist the cultivation of some wisdom in the future scientists?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I talked about various aspects of wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Toss of it is of course to do with, as I said, using the technology
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[SPEAKER_01]: in a wise way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, we want a future which is human centre, rather than the techno centre.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we must always be aware of the fact that when we talk about the technological aspects of science, it must be for the benefit of humanity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's to be what's quite an important point.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But how do we assist the cultivation of wisdom?
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[SPEAKER_02]: cannot wait until a person is already practicing a great amount of science.
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[SPEAKER_02]: By that time, their whole mental attitude is fixed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, it has to really begin at a very early stage of.
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[SPEAKER_02]: how the kids are growing up, what kind of education they experience or they are subjected to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, I am really asking you, what is your impression, how can we at that time, because as I see what goes on in the schools, most of the places, most of the time, to compete with each other so you can get a better scholarship or you can get to a better college.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There is how
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[SPEAKER_02]: cultivation that leads to wisdom rather than just competition.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is so important because, I mean, I've always said that if there is going to be a post-materialist science, which accommodates spirituality, scientists have to become more spiritual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: of course you can argue about what do you mean by spirituality, but I mean as you correctly say, science at the moment is it's very competitive.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have to, it's competitive because you're competing for grants, you're competing for positions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not easy to get permanent academic positions now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're competing for status.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You want to show that you get, you've got your brilliant idea of physics, the explanation of quasars or something before anybody else.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's competitive and it's egocentric, you know, it is based on the
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[SPEAKER_01]: be showing that I'm a great scientist and that of course is the opposite of spirituality.
21:51.061 --> 22:05.435
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what you're saying is that the whole culture of science in some sense is it odds with the culture of spirituality, mind you even the spiritual domain there may be elements of competitiveness and ego as well but in theory there shouldn't be.
22:06.055 --> 22:10.740
[SPEAKER_01]: So the question is how you overcome that, how do you make scientists more spiritual?
22:11.900 --> 22:14.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think I agree with you.
22:14.642 --> 22:18.986
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of it is actually educating people at a younger stage.
22:19.767 --> 22:28.295
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, now we live in a very materialistic culture and that materialistic culture is part of a result of the success of science, but it's also a result of the...
22:29.372 --> 22:43.520
[SPEAKER_01]: our conditioning through the whole educational system, and so your right is when people at school you've got to inculcate that level of interest and going beyond the material domain, essentially.
22:44.321 --> 22:51.105
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, a lot of the traditions you're trying to inculcate are not being self, it's just what in some sense you're doing through religion anyway.
22:51.745 --> 23:00.659
[SPEAKER_01]: You could say that the one reason reason that science is so competitive is because it's lost the religious aspect of
23:02.056 --> 23:04.939
[SPEAKER_01]: of thinking of the greater good of other people and things like that.
23:05.620 --> 23:18.974
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sort of agreeing with you that if you've got to incoucate people throughout the educational system when they're younger and it all is a make a difference by the time you get to the level of academia and things like that.
23:19.554 --> 23:23.058
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there is a more basic issue here.
23:24.580 --> 23:39.668
[SPEAKER_02]: Because my impression is, there may be many studies about it as well, which I am not necessarily aware of, that whatever the mind encounters, it wishes to control it and to predict it.
23:41.389 --> 23:50.013
[SPEAKER_02]: Where this is the reason why, from a spiritual point of view, almost the fundamental call is first of all, to quieten the mind.
23:51.638 --> 24:00.305
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, this is the first substantial sutra in the yoga sutras, that yoga is cultivating the stillness of the mind.
24:01.266 --> 24:16.958
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can listen to any great contemporary ones or old ones, like the Buddha or Christ or Contemporary ones, if you have met somebody, like, say, Krishna Murthy or Randa Salsman and my own experience, wonderful people.
24:18.178 --> 24:20.700
[SPEAKER_02]: They are very strongly emphasizing.
24:20.800 --> 24:25.603
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, Krishna Mouthi uses this expression intelligence beyond thought.
24:26.803 --> 24:29.065
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not my expression, it's the expression he uses.
24:29.645 --> 24:45.175
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is really very much based on the traditionally, it will be way of saying, quieting the mind, so that there is an awareness coming from a subtler or we may say higher level, but subtler level.
24:46.258 --> 24:57.432
[SPEAKER_02]: So, therefore it seems to me, if you look at the whole scientific activity, almost of necessity is mentally oriented.
25:00.096 --> 25:03.917
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, it always wants to control something or predict something.
25:04.557 --> 25:12.659
[SPEAKER_02]: Even when we discover something as profusically, we can't really control those enormous galaxies, trillions of miles away.
25:13.219 --> 25:18.361
[SPEAKER_02]: But still, there is always what we can predict from this, what we can do next time.
25:18.641 --> 25:20.981
[SPEAKER_02]: There is that tendency very strong there.
25:22.822 --> 25:27.203
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the whole suggestion from the spiritual point of view,
25:28.418 --> 25:34.503
[SPEAKER_02]: is to submit to something which is not in my control, but it can bless me.
25:34.723 --> 25:44.792
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the simple reminder after all you and I did not create ourselves, is not my breath which is keeping me alive, is that divine breath.
25:45.452 --> 25:54.500
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, you probably know that already you may have heard me say that, in Sanskrit as well as in Hebrew, the word for breath also means spirit.
25:56.222 --> 26:00.405
[SPEAKER_02]: So the breath in me is the spirit in me keeping this body alive.
26:00.525 --> 26:03.526
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that I made this body or I'm keeping this alive.
26:04.447 --> 26:12.131
[SPEAKER_02]: So therefore the suggestion from all spiritual practices, it doesn't matter from whether they are Christian or Muslim or Hindu.
26:12.171 --> 26:14.393
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just side issues.
26:15.504 --> 26:17.666
[SPEAKER_02]: because each one gets stuck with their own thing.
26:18.186 --> 26:43.128
[SPEAKER_02]: But the fundamental requirement in all of these traditions is our teachings, is to be more and more free of my assertion, my achievement, got expressed in various ways, die to yourself is one way of saying it, or the way Christ said, unless you leave yourself behind, you cannot be a follower of mine.
26:43.725 --> 26:54.162
[SPEAKER_02]: So it gets expressed in varieties of ways, but the call is to be free of precisely the element in me which is trying to control whatever it encounters.
26:56.473 --> 27:09.498
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I agree with that, Ravi, but the question is, how do you persuade most of the scientific community, because I'm talking as a scientist, to adopt that attitude?
27:10.258 --> 27:16.681
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose if you persuaded all the scientists to meditate, for example, they might end up taking that view.
27:18.259 --> 27:22.842
[SPEAKER_01]: But normally, the people who take that view are people who are spiritual to begin with.
27:22.882 --> 27:31.488
[SPEAKER_01]: So either through some experience they've had, and of course it may be in a Christian tradition or a Buddhist traditional or a Hindu tradition, whatever it is.
27:32.529 --> 27:42.416
[SPEAKER_01]: They're aware of that element, and that means that they are, they're not so prone to trying to control in the way that you are commenting on.
27:49.103 --> 27:52.865
[SPEAKER_01]: persuade scientists to take on the characteristics you're advocating.
27:53.685 --> 28:11.232
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to say they should all go through a meditation class when they're young or you know it's really first of all more a matter of this is always the case if you look at some of the great scientists like Einstein is a good example of this.
28:13.240 --> 28:19.865
[SPEAKER_02]: or some of the people I met at the Institute of Advanced Study, the person who inherited Einstein chair there.
28:20.666 --> 28:40.041
[SPEAKER_02]: They have not only humility in the social kind of sense, but really a deep understanding that something comes into them even their insights in scientific world are being blessings from some higher level, not from their achievement.
28:41.563 --> 28:44.245
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that a person doesn't have to do one's own work.
28:45.066 --> 28:51.511
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is always, for example, you know, Einstein's remark, I think you may have read it somewhere else.
28:52.071 --> 28:56.294
[SPEAKER_02]: People asking him whether ultimately creativity is all a matter of chance.
28:57.035 --> 29:00.157
[SPEAKER_02]: They use the word chance rather than using grace or something other.
29:00.958 --> 29:05.421
[SPEAKER_02]: And Einstein's remark was rather interesting that ultimately, it is a matter of chance.
29:06.082 --> 29:09.144
[SPEAKER_02]: But chance favors the prepared.
29:11.354 --> 29:27.025
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the scientific enterprise in my judgment is a kind of a preparation, but on the other hand, an acceptance there is, there are domains much higher than ourselves.
29:27.285 --> 29:30.547
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, in the biblical tradition, you know, you have it.
29:31.112 --> 29:37.642
[SPEAKER_02]: Nine orders of angels, they are all above human beings, and God is still above them.
29:38.283 --> 29:42.549
[SPEAKER_02]: So to recognize that we don't have the monopoly of truth.
29:43.404 --> 29:45.906
[SPEAKER_01]: This is really an important contribution.
29:46.546 --> 29:56.694
[SPEAKER_01]: I can resonate with that, Ravi, because many scientists will assume that when they have some brilliant idea that it comes from their own heads, so they get the credit.
29:57.295 --> 30:04.100
[SPEAKER_01]: But it seems to me that many of the greatest ideas in science actually, in some sense, come from outside.
30:05.321 --> 30:10.405
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a statement about creativity in general, not necessarily scientific creativity.
30:11.145 --> 30:20.627
[SPEAKER_01]: The greatest inspirations being it in as having a scientific idea or thinking about creating a piece of music or a great work of art, a great work of literature.
30:21.448 --> 30:31.430
[SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to say, oh it comes from me, I should get the credit, but I believe that the greatest ideas actually come from outside, and one is receiving by grace.
30:32.382 --> 30:34.363
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's sort of evidence for that too.
30:34.383 --> 30:36.704
[SPEAKER_01]: You often have in the history of science.
30:36.764 --> 30:41.446
[SPEAKER_01]: You will have different people have the same idea at the simultaneous.
30:41.646 --> 30:44.247
[SPEAKER_01]: It's though the idea is in the air and it's being picked up.
30:44.647 --> 30:44.807
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:44.887 --> 30:46.668
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think also in science.
30:47.008 --> 30:47.368
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
30:47.408 --> 30:50.769
[SPEAKER_01]: I got interested in these topics when I was about 15.
30:50.829 --> 30:51.590
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had some...
30:52.290 --> 31:05.754
[SPEAKER_01]: sudden on idea, you know, I was interested in the three worlds of Matrimone experience and I had a sudden idea as to how they could be brought together, which involved the paradigm I like, of hard mentions and things like that.
31:05.834 --> 31:10.876
[SPEAKER_01]: But the details of the paradigm don't matter, but the point was that I felt
31:11.858 --> 31:15.382
[SPEAKER_01]: an inspiration that this had to be the truth in some sense.
31:15.982 --> 31:19.706
[SPEAKER_01]: But it then took 50 years to try and work it out using the rational mind.
31:19.746 --> 31:24.532
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the mistake is to assume that science is just a result of reason.
31:25.858 --> 31:26.999
[SPEAKER_01]: and personal effort.
31:27.399 --> 31:32.362
[SPEAKER_01]: I think actually there are other sources of progress.
31:33.102 --> 31:35.903
[SPEAKER_01]: It's inspiration, as well as just reason.
31:36.584 --> 31:40.146
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what a why scientists will realize.
31:40.386 --> 31:48.810
[SPEAKER_01]: But the point about that is once you appreciate that these are ideas and some come from the outside, you're not making it so egotistical.
31:48.830 --> 31:51.932
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not saying this is me, me coming up with this idea.
31:51.952 --> 31:52.132
[SPEAKER_01]: You're
31:53.953 --> 31:58.936
[SPEAKER_01]: You're more humble that universe is actually revealing the universe through you.
31:59.216 --> 32:00.076
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I see it.
32:01.017 --> 32:03.238
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know the famous quotation from T.S.
32:03.318 --> 32:03.718
[SPEAKER_00]: Eliot?
32:04.239 --> 32:08.821
[SPEAKER_00]: The only wisdom we can hope to acquire is the wisdom of humility.
32:09.381 --> 32:10.542
[SPEAKER_00]: Humility is endless.
32:11.002 --> 32:12.443
[SPEAKER_00]: He says in the Four Quartets.
32:13.774 --> 32:20.037
[SPEAKER_01]: That's lovely, and I must, I think when I talked about the attributes of wisdom, it was one of the what's humility.
32:20.758 --> 32:23.039
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I'm bringing it in.
32:23.499 --> 32:23.939
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
32:23.959 --> 32:26.140
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'll thank you for that earlier quote, which is sort of...
32:26.320 --> 32:34.324
[SPEAKER_02]: But another idea is, earlier as a reminder, wisdom, which is lost in knowledge and knowledge which is lost in information.
32:36.305 --> 32:41.828
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, yeah, in physics, we would very much emphasize the information part that has become
32:43.807 --> 32:54.351
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, of course there is always the distinction between information and wisdom because you can teach information, but you don't, that doesn't give you the wisdom.
32:55.131 --> 33:03.794
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to give a quote from Einstein, which says that wisdom is not a product of schooling, but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.
33:13.970 --> 33:27.841
[SPEAKER_02]: but even coming to information now that one of the difficulties is since the end of the 17th century, more particularly emphasized in the 18th, that the only avenue to truth is science.
33:28.722 --> 33:35.287
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, music cannot help you understand anything about the universe, or painting cannot help you understand.
33:35.387 --> 33:37.328
[SPEAKER_02]: None of the arts only science.
33:42.604 --> 33:53.410
[SPEAKER_02]: the great German philosopher, Guaite, and he tried even to hero the book on optics, which was a little differently based on what Newton was would say.
33:54.410 --> 34:06.437
[SPEAKER_02]: But to me, this is, for example, initially, especially until the end of the 19th century, in physics, everything is coming from matter, all you need to do is MLT, Mars, length, time.
34:07.815 --> 34:28.932
[SPEAKER_02]: This whole fundamental assumption has been so strongly emphasized since then of course we have added charge and we had added spin but it still remains that basically it is matter that is much more important than almost anything else which from a spiritual point of view only a completely negative idea.
34:29.978 --> 34:35.139
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I think it's so important to expand science beyond the domain of the material.
34:36.060 --> 34:46.922
[SPEAKER_01]: At least I've always assumed the whole ideal of post-materialist science is to expand science beyond the domain of the material world to the mental world and the spiritual world.
34:47.602 --> 34:57.185
[SPEAKER_01]: And actually I'd like to ask you your opinion about this Ravi because it's always seen to me that the paradigm shift required to do that really goes into steps.
34:58.145 --> 35:08.453
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, you want to try and expand science beyond the material domain to incorporate mind, and that means, of course, consciousness as well.
35:09.434 --> 35:16.079
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say already that's almost becoming mainstream now because of developments in cognitive science and, and, uh,
35:16.719 --> 35:23.825
[SPEAKER_01]: quantum theory and things like that, it's almost accepted now that science has to expand to a comedy mind.
35:23.845 --> 35:28.489
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean not just in the sense of psychology, but in some deeper sense.
35:29.030 --> 35:37.357
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why so many people like pen rows and physicists like pen rows take the view that we have to expand physics to a comedy consciousness.
35:38.818 --> 35:39.218
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a
35:41.683 --> 35:44.844
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I've always thought, well, that's the first step.
35:44.864 --> 35:50.166
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you've got to have a second paradigm shift to accommodate spirituality.
35:50.206 --> 35:54.367
[SPEAKER_01]: Because remember, I talked about the three worlds matter, mind, and spirit.
35:54.588 --> 35:58.309
[SPEAKER_01]: We think of science as being associated with the material world.
35:58.789 --> 36:02.530
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to expand it in my view to accommodate the mental world.
36:04.691 --> 36:18.844
[SPEAKER_01]: while I was saying that you need some expansion of physics, which will accommodate mind, but then you've got to expand it to accommodate the spiritual world as well, and I see that as a second paradigm shift, which is going to take longer.
36:18.884 --> 36:25.349
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're already on the verge of a paradigm shift, which is going to expand the science, the mental domain.
36:26.390 --> 36:29.532
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think expanding science to accommodate the spiritual.
36:29.552 --> 36:32.013
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one extra, that's a bigger step.
36:32.193 --> 36:33.994
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's going to take longer.
36:34.074 --> 36:38.416
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would be interested in your reaction to that Ravi.
36:38.456 --> 36:46.200
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do you think that science will actually be expanded to accommodate the spiritual domain?
36:47.269 --> 37:01.555
[SPEAKER_02]: The tragedy is I even wonder how long the planet will survive or the human beings will survive here the way it is going because we keep creating bigger and bigger weapons and destroying more and more everything around so
37:02.937 --> 37:12.825
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there is all so many of the people studying physics, including you, of course, become you and I coming from that background, you can look at it.
37:13.345 --> 37:18.269
[SPEAKER_02]: Most of them end up serving working either for the military or for the industry.
37:19.630 --> 37:27.596
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean for more and more material gain or conquering others, dominating others?
37:29.403 --> 37:38.326
[SPEAKER_02]: So, unless we can change that remark there, any notion that in the future, we will have another paradigm shift.
37:39.966 --> 37:45.868
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's just imagination, because it requires to look at the present situation.
37:47.388 --> 37:53.530
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really, therefore coming back to this remarkable plan, he was not a foolish person saying this.
37:55.402 --> 38:09.027
[SPEAKER_02]: If we see the difficulty or really more or less the immense impact of contemporary, these days, for example, artificial intelligence, who is going to use it more and more for what purpose?
38:10.287 --> 38:13.788
[SPEAKER_02]: For destruction or gaining something for personal gain.
38:14.608 --> 38:19.030
[SPEAKER_02]: So what is really required, it seems to me, is not trying to change
38:20.198 --> 38:26.681
[SPEAKER_02]: the people who are already working in science, because by that time they have already grown up, they have a certain attitude.
38:27.762 --> 38:38.568
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, fundamental requirement is teaching at a very elementary level, the young kids going to school.
38:39.348 --> 38:42.310
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel that this is where we need to come back again and again.
38:42.910 --> 38:47.833
[SPEAKER_02]: And then allow the possibility that what is understood through music or through art,
38:48.964 --> 38:56.352
[SPEAKER_02]: is something slightly different than what is understood through whatever is called scientific work these days.
38:57.233 --> 38:58.494
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my impression over.
38:59.115 --> 39:09.666
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would say there's a distinction rather though between having a conceptual paradigm which is going to link matter and mind and spirit.
39:11.040 --> 39:12.422
[SPEAKER_01]: which is purely theoretical.
39:12.482 --> 39:23.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have my own conceptual paradigm, which is all to do with the fact that you've got hard dimensions and you have to expand physics beyond space and time to accommodate these extra dimensions and those extra dimensions.
39:24.573 --> 39:29.999
[SPEAKER_01]: That is that if you like the arena of mind and spirit, but that's a sort of intellectual approach.
39:31.028 --> 39:34.711
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see that as feasible, that there is something one could achieve.
39:34.731 --> 39:44.098
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it may not be right, it may be rubbish, but I'd feel that it can be an intellectual theory, which is going to link the three worlds of matter of mind and spirit.
39:44.419 --> 39:55.827
[SPEAKER_01]: Your addressing the issue from a more practical perspective about why in practice it may be hard for this to happen, and the sort of this all relates to the question about
39:56.708 --> 40:00.673
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only scientists, but society as a whole, in some sense, has to become more spiritual.
40:00.693 --> 40:02.776
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there are two distinct issues.
40:03.256 --> 40:11.506
[SPEAKER_01]: And the point is, for example, I spend a lot of my time if you're preaching about the paradigm which I think is going to accommodate.
40:12.247 --> 40:13.927
[SPEAKER_01]: mind and spirit duality.
40:14.528 --> 40:18.509
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't for a moment think that having such a paradigm makes one more spiritual.
40:18.529 --> 40:26.391
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm often thinking about prime of entry models of spirit duality, but it doesn't help me become enlightened or anything like that.
40:26.471 --> 40:34.593
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you're sort of drawing a decision between a conceptual paradigm and the actual practical aspects of that.
40:35.268 --> 40:42.030
[SPEAKER_01]: The early other topic, I don't know if we got time David, the other topic, I would like to mention because Rabbi mentioned the word AI.
40:42.630 --> 40:45.971
[SPEAKER_01]: And I currently have got a B and my bond is about AI.
40:46.031 --> 40:55.513
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated in the question of, we talked about technology having positive and negative aspects and AI is to me there's a pre-example of that.
40:57.013 --> 41:04.255
[SPEAKER_01]: I can have tremendously positive aspects in the sense that it can actually, we've got this huge,
41:05.386 --> 41:23.618
[SPEAKER_01]: exponential increase of information now, I'm talking about science alone, then it comes back to ethics again, it's impossible essentially for any individual sciences to understand everything that's going on, you have to focus more and more narrowly to make a contribution, this is within science.
41:24.499 --> 41:40.057
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's the great thing about AI, it has this enormous knowledge of everything that's going on in the sense that it knows all the papers that's being written on the topic and it can operate, it can read all this information and provide.
41:40.077 --> 41:42.720
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, knowing and reading, that's slightly metaphorical isn't it?
41:42.880 --> 41:49.043
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, but the point I'm making David is that's a positive aspect and it's making great contributions to medical research.
41:49.323 --> 41:59.148
[SPEAKER_01]: It may even come up with the final theory of everything before humans, I didn't know, but of course the negative aspects of it is that AI lacks humanity.
41:59.848 --> 42:13.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And in some sense AI should always be the servant, but the dangerous that AI is going to become the master, because AI most mental activities AI can now do better than humans.
42:13.675 --> 42:15.235
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it can be to the chest.
42:15.656 --> 42:20.918
[SPEAKER_01]: When I write papers now, I can give it to AI, and it'll go through, and it'll correct the papers.
42:20.958 --> 42:22.259
[SPEAKER_01]: It will say you can improve this.
42:22.279 --> 42:24.200
[SPEAKER_01]: You can, this equation has got a mistake.
42:24.240 --> 42:28.942
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a great tool, but the danger is it's going to make humans redundant.
42:29.542 --> 42:45.552
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, to me, I think the really important issue of our ages, what is the role of AI because some people think that AI is the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the spirituality, you know, it's just a machine, it doesn't understand meaning or anything like that.
42:46.352 --> 42:53.400
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not convinced about that because in a funny way AI, it seems to me as rather like a universal mind.
42:53.480 --> 43:01.128
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems to have this knowledge, like the Akashit record, this knowledge of everything, which I think can be very useful.
43:01.929 --> 43:07.354
[SPEAKER_01]: In some sense, the AI accesses this cosmic consciousness, in some sense.
43:08.175 --> 43:11.678
[SPEAKER_01]: because it connects all the minds in a way which is very efficient.
43:11.798 --> 43:16.763
[SPEAKER_01]: So individuals, we can't see the wood for the trees, we have to focus very narrowly.
43:16.803 --> 43:21.247
[SPEAKER_01]: But AI, in some sense, can see the principal can see the wood.
43:21.847 --> 43:26.831
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's very important, but only it also a tremendous threat.
43:27.751 --> 43:30.732
[SPEAKER_01]: because it can make humans redundant.
43:30.792 --> 43:32.473
[SPEAKER_00]: lethal autonomous weapons.
43:32.593 --> 43:33.293
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
43:33.373 --> 43:33.914
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
43:34.154 --> 43:38.075
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, the question is, will AI develop consciousness?
43:38.836 --> 43:40.496
[SPEAKER_01]: Or will it even develop a soul?
43:41.057 --> 43:46.119
[SPEAKER_01]: And most of my spiritual friends, which probably includes both Ravian David, will take the view that
43:46.819 --> 43:49.241
[SPEAKER_01]: it will never develop consciousness or a soul.
43:49.701 --> 44:07.631
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not convinced because I think if you believe that the brain is a filter of consciousness rather than a producer of consciousness, I don't see in principle why consciousness with a big sea can't actually be operating through other systems who don't based on flesh and blood.
44:08.071 --> 44:09.612
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am not convinced.
44:10.092 --> 44:11.575
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I've been provoked of here.
44:11.915 --> 44:20.110
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not convinced that AI will not eventually develop consciousness or even soul or creativity or even genius.
44:20.738 --> 44:26.243
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm a genius, it's probably not already, but Ravi, just a closing remark, I think.
44:26.543 --> 44:33.970
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Bernard should make the closing remark if he wishes to because we were here to really invite him to speak about it.
44:34.611 --> 44:39.776
[SPEAKER_02]: But he just, whatever he said right now, I think we can be even his remark about AI.
44:41.278 --> 44:43.479
[SPEAKER_02]: whether we agree or don't agree doesn't matter.
44:43.899 --> 44:45.820
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's good to have that to end with.
44:46.601 --> 44:48.042
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we can stop.
44:48.642 --> 44:54.625
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the question is more important to the answer because of course, oh, I'm starting with, it's a really important question.
44:54.705 --> 44:59.868
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know what the answer is, but I see AI, it's just a baby at the moment.
45:00.228 --> 45:05.651
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's growing at such an amazing rate who can tell what it's going to be like, what it's for the growth.
45:05.711 --> 45:07.212
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's an organic analogy.
45:07.672 --> 45:09.053
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't organic.
45:09.213 --> 45:14.957
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, thank you very much, both of you for joining this episode of Wise Scientists.
45:15.437 --> 45:16.278
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.
45:16.978 --> 45:18.219
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Rabbi and David.
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[SPEAKER_02]: May you all be blessed.
00:00.031 --> 00:01.172
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
00:16.213 --> 00:19.696
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to this episode of Wise Scientists.
00:20.296 --> 00:21.637
[SPEAKER_00]: My name is David Lorimer.
00:21.677 --> 00:27.881
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great pleasure to introduce my very old friends, Ravi Ravindra and Bernard Carr.
00:28.622 --> 00:33.745
[SPEAKER_00]: Ravi, I've known since 1988, and Bernard, I think, since not very much after that.
00:33.825 --> 00:36.868
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I met Bernard first in Cambridge in 1979.
00:36.908 --> 00:37.908
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's even longer ago.
00:40.590 --> 00:48.576
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, we're here in the theme of wise scientists, and I'm going to hand over to Ravi who I think is ready with his first question.
00:55.200 --> 00:57.782
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was just really going to ask Bernard.
00:58.762 --> 01:02.305
[SPEAKER_02]: How would you, as it were, recognize a wise scientist?
01:02.605 --> 01:06.568
[SPEAKER_02]: Why would you say somebody is a wise scientist and somebody is not?
01:07.503 --> 01:09.584
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a very interesting question.
01:10.645 --> 01:18.029
[SPEAKER_01]: It also relates to the question of, I think, of spirituality, how you, whether you're, it can be a spiritual scientist.
01:19.089 --> 01:34.058
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, if a spiritual scientist will be somebody who has an understanding of, not just the theory of physics itself, but also has some concept of meaning,
01:35.283 --> 01:47.758
[SPEAKER_01]: the meaning behind the universe, some view of the ethical implications of the scientific view, the importance of humanity and its applications.
01:48.559 --> 01:53.485
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone who realizes that it's not just a matter of truth.
01:54.975 --> 02:10.793
[SPEAKER_01]: To me the path to truth is just as important as the final truth because we may not even get to the final truth They may not even be a final theory of physics So to me the wise scientists this sees the path of science is a sort of pilgrimage
02:11.895 --> 02:35.711
[SPEAKER_01]: The Y scientists has to be humble, has to realize that we may never have a final theory of physics, I'm a physicist or a final theory of science, because science goes through the sequence of paradigm shifts, and so the Y scientists realize that each paradigm shift is just one more step if you like towards the final destination, but
02:36.913 --> 02:41.995
[SPEAKER_01]: It may not be the ultimate reality, in fact, you're almost undoubtedly isn't the final reality.
02:42.835 --> 02:48.878
[SPEAKER_01]: The wise scientist is humble and realises that he or she can be wrong.
02:50.298 --> 02:58.821
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, most theories of science actually will physically turn out to be wrong in the end, rightly, solely as one step towards the final truth.
02:59.442 --> 03:00.102
[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore,
03:01.442 --> 03:15.034
[SPEAKER_01]: even the greatest minds make mistakes and in fact it's important to make mistakes because you learn often through your mistakes more than you learn through doing things correctly.
03:15.595 --> 03:24.222
[SPEAKER_01]: I think even in Buddhism you have the idea that it's useful to go the wrong way because you learn more by taking the run path and by taking the correct path.
03:25.023 --> 03:35.426
[SPEAKER_01]: So, those are some of the aspects of a wise scientist, I would say, a humility and appreciation of how science must be applied for the good of humanity.
03:36.886 --> 03:50.850
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all scientific progress has technological implications, which may be positive and negative, but I think it's very important to be able to apply those technological implications in a way which is for the good of humanity.
03:52.021 --> 04:11.430
[SPEAKER_01]: And also I suppose the wise scientists should be motivated by compassion, you know, that the purpose of what is the purpose of science of our, the purpose of our expanding knowledge in some sense, it's that the universe should become aware of itself.
04:12.972 --> 04:31.571
[SPEAKER_01]: And in other words, the wise scientists should realize that his individual efforts are just part about his individual consciousness, if you like it, is just part, he's in service to a much larger universal consciousness which is trying to become aware of itself.
04:32.812 --> 04:42.817
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just ask one other question, but I think it's relevant before Ravi comes in again, is do you think any final theory of physics can exclude consciousness?
04:44.677 --> 04:45.598
[SPEAKER_01]: Personally, no.
04:46.058 --> 05:00.904
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, I think what we talk about, post-materialist science, the whole point about post-materialist science, is that it must accommodate consciousness, it must accommodate first person, as well as the third person description of the world,
05:02.983 --> 05:08.691
[SPEAKER_01]: My own view is that we've got our two rapes, there is a physics at the moment, quantum theory and relativity theory.
05:09.191 --> 05:12.335
[SPEAKER_01]: The final theory of physics is trying to marry those together.
05:13.056 --> 05:18.183
[SPEAKER_01]: And my view, my hope, if you like, is that that final theory of physics.
05:19.220 --> 05:23.202
[SPEAKER_01]: is going to accommodate, well, it's going to accommodate consciousness.
05:23.802 --> 05:26.443
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, that's not a view that all physicists would accept.
05:26.463 --> 05:44.650
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are other physicists like Roger Penrose who do think it is fundamental, but nevertheless, that is my personal view that the final paradigm of physics, or not even the final paradigm, maybe the next paradigm of physics, is going to be one which is going to accommodate consciousness.
05:46.062 --> 05:59.846
[SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, in some sense, we already have readers to think that from quantum theory that consciousness may play a role in the universe, but I would say that quantum theory doesn't give a complete description of mind and consciousness.
05:59.966 --> 06:04.887
[SPEAKER_01]: It shows that consciousness is relevant to the universe, but it doesn't give an explicit
06:05.627 --> 06:08.048
[SPEAKER_01]: description of mind in physics.
06:08.328 --> 06:21.490
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the final theory of physics, I won't keep saying the final theory of physics, but the next theory of physics, is going to accommodate not only consciousness, but I would say mental and spiritual experience.
06:22.571 --> 06:32.753
[SPEAKER_02]: But in the light of what you just said about why scientists, how would you respond to this remarkable John Puleani which I quoted, namely that in the
06:34.360 --> 06:44.330
[SPEAKER_02]: science had done more harm to humanity than anything else, so that means that we have not any way scientists, essentially.
06:45.051 --> 06:54.901
[SPEAKER_01]: Well I would say that every scientific paradigm and I'm talking as a physicist, I'll be talking about physical parameters, I would say that all progress in physics always has
06:55.762 --> 06:57.504
[SPEAKER_01]: technological implications.
06:58.304 --> 07:03.809
[SPEAKER_01]: And those technological implications will always have positive and negative aspects.
07:04.750 --> 07:22.925
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, what we can talk about, obviously, atomic power, we all know that a discovery of the structure of the atom and the atomic forces, that may be our salvation in the long term, because we will have sources of atomic, after all, the sound is powered by atomic processes.
07:23.485 --> 07:32.508
[SPEAKER_01]: that's the source of all life, and maybe the development of atomic power is going to be the salvation of life on earth, you know, it will provide our energies.
07:33.189 --> 07:42.152
[SPEAKER_01]: The energy you require to continue, but we also know that it's the source of the atomic bomb and it could be the end of humanity, the source of destruction.
07:42.652 --> 07:50.195
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that's true of every development in science, that it's going to have both positive and negative implications.
07:50.215 --> 07:51.395
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we can think about this
07:53.387 --> 08:03.671
[SPEAKER_01]: understanding DNA may have tremendous benefits for curing diseases, but at the same time it needs to, you know, the horrors of eugenics and things like that.
08:04.571 --> 08:16.196
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important because we keep talking about the post-materialist paradigm, and the assumption always tends to be that, well, once we got the post-materialist paradigm accommodating,
08:20.998 --> 08:28.185
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's as simple as that because I think that even the post-materialist paradigm is going to have technological implications.
08:28.925 --> 08:31.348
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course it depends what that final paradigm is.
08:32.329 --> 08:35.211
[SPEAKER_00]: Well there won't be a final paradigm, surely.
08:35.872 --> 08:38.915
[SPEAKER_00]: But because, you know, science is never complete.
08:39.942 --> 08:42.883
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I shouldn't keep saying the final paradigm.
08:42.983 --> 08:46.704
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the next paradigm which is going to incorporate consciousness.
08:47.064 --> 08:49.585
[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean the point is, I make a prediction.
08:49.785 --> 08:56.347
[SPEAKER_01]: The post-materialist paradigm will only become popular if you're accepted by the mainstream.
08:57.187 --> 09:00.068
[SPEAKER_01]: When somebody's managed to apply technologically and
09:01.308 --> 09:04.432
[SPEAKER_01]: probably made a fortune, you know, we come a billion air out of it.
09:05.253 --> 09:11.119
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, although we might think of this next paradigm as being something which is incorporating spirituality.
09:11.900 --> 09:18.448
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be that it will only become commonly accepted when that someone's managed to make a fortune out of it.
09:19.840 --> 09:22.301
[SPEAKER_01]: and the musk if you like of the next generation.
09:22.621 --> 09:27.622
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a rather strange mixture of the material and the spiritual domain.
09:28.202 --> 09:33.663
[SPEAKER_01]: But we might assume that the technological implications are always positive.
09:33.863 --> 09:39.585
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it would be the post-materialist paradigm could have all sorts of negative implications as well.
09:40.250 --> 09:45.536
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's get comes back to are you and are you going to use whatever development ethically or not?
09:45.716 --> 09:46.937
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you an ethical person?
09:47.778 --> 09:52.143
[SPEAKER_00]: And you've already said that the wise person is ethical.
09:53.144 --> 10:01.513
[SPEAKER_00]: So obviously there's an ethical neutrality about the developments, but as you say, they may all be used for positive and negative.
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[SPEAKER_00]: purposes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Ravi, I was thinking that what point you often make is that the work on the spiritual work is work on being.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not work on being clever.
10:14.398 --> 10:21.525
[SPEAKER_00]: It's work on trying to become wiser and what you'd like to pursue that and then bat it back to Bernard.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, connected with that really, I was going to ask Bernard if he himself has met some scientists or even historically, not necessarily met them, but has heard about them or read about them, who he would consider are wise scientists.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is interesting because
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[SPEAKER_01]: some of the greater scientists I wouldn't necessarily regard as wise.
10:49.070 --> 10:56.775
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if we take Stephen Hawking who I worked with, he was my PhD supervisor and friend.
10:56.795 --> 11:03.040
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he was a brilliant physicist, of course, and he made many important discoveries.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that when he got into
11:06.922 --> 11:13.887
[SPEAKER_01]: issues to do with philosophy and theology, for example, I don't think I disagree with them about many things.
11:14.747 --> 11:25.375
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you probably know, he had an integrity towards philosophy, and he had his, he was, he was an atheist, he had an integrity towards spirituality and obviously I disagree about that.
11:25.495 --> 11:32.199
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I suppose in a funny way, I would be inclined to say, Stephen, because of that,
11:33.360 --> 11:34.921
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe wasn't so wise.
11:34.981 --> 11:36.943
[SPEAKER_01]: He was brilliant, but not so wise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what about someone like Sir Arthur Eddington?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think he might qualify as a wise scientist?
11:44.168 --> 11:44.949
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a Quaker.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm tempted to say, and I'm not sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm tempted to say that someone who's got a spiritual aspect is more likely to be wise than somebody who is...
11:56.097 --> 11:56.878
[SPEAKER_01]: is atheistic.
11:56.938 --> 12:06.847
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that may be that's probably rather simplistic, but I made this link between wisdom and spirituality in some sense because it does seem to be spirituality is part of the wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well maybe Raviy himself is a wise scientist.
12:10.010 --> 12:14.353
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh Raviy of course that is the answer that I shouldn't give them a straight away.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean let me say the following.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In a way, one of my great ambitions is to, I've always wanted to link the world of matter, the world of mind and the world of spirituality, and in academic terms, that corresponds if you like to science and philosophy and religious studies.
12:34.288 --> 12:42.814
[SPEAKER_01]: So part of my purpose in life has always been to try and link those three topics, and of course that relates to the scientific and medical network, which also links some
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[SPEAKER_01]: But actually the person who's done that far more successfully than me and in that sense is it's really my hero in a way is Ravi because Ravi is I think
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[SPEAKER_01]: the only person I know who's held positions in both in physics departments, philosophy departments, and religious studies departments.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, and to me, in some sense, that's why I have tremendous aberration for Avie.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He incorporates these three worlds, if you like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that wisdom, in some sense, is encapsulated in the fact that it does link those three worlds.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I gave an example of Stephen, who was a brilliant scientist, but not interested in philosophy, not interested in spirituality.
13:30.135 --> 13:35.281
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that sense, I would say he wasn't so wise, but I have to be a little bit careful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean he was foolish, but he, I would say he was lacking something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the strange thing about Stephen,
13:43.341 --> 13:55.171
[SPEAKER_01]: is that although he wasn't really spiritual, I mean he looked down on spirituality and he was wasn't certainly not interested in following his spiritual path, he was nevertheless a spiritual inspiration.
13:56.585 --> 14:01.387
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, partly through his ideas in cosmology has spiritual implications, perhaps.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But also, of course, with his fight against his illness was a spiritual inspiration.
14:08.110 --> 14:14.213
[SPEAKER_01]: And the strange thing about Stephen, he was quite convinced that when he died, he would most survived a consciousness after death.
14:14.713 --> 14:18.035
[SPEAKER_01]: But the strange thing about Stephen, he was blessed by four popes,
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he ended up being in Westminster Abbey.
14:21.818 --> 14:22.238
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I've always said that even though he didn't believe in God and the afterlife, that if he gets to the early gates, he'll probably let him in any way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But what do you think, where would you put Martin Reese in this?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know Martin very well.
14:36.730 --> 14:39.433
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's obviously very astute.
14:40.133 --> 14:42.715
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he's quite a sensitive person in many ways.
14:42.755 --> 14:44.417
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've certainly found a very kind.
14:45.978 --> 14:59.284
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he is a good friend and he's also, I think, you know, a great scientist, I would say he's more open to philosophical ideas and he cares a lot about the future of humanity.
14:59.304 --> 15:02.605
[SPEAKER_01]: He writes a lot about the threats of humanity and things like that.
15:03.326 --> 15:06.307
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't really describe him as a spiritual person.
15:06.467 --> 15:12.690
[SPEAKER_01]: He's always very diplomatic, you know, he does go through, he's like that, and he got the Templeton Prize too.
15:13.470 --> 15:16.010
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that sense, of course, that must be an element of spirituality.
15:16.231 --> 15:23.832
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that like Stephen, Martin was not really as so much a spiritual person, but he's open.
15:23.852 --> 15:26.632
[SPEAKER_01]: He's much more open to the sort of phenomena.
15:26.652 --> 15:32.934
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, as you know, I'm interested in psychical research because that is a sort of link between science and religion.
15:33.414 --> 15:37.354
[SPEAKER_01]: Stephen Hawking was very, he didn't believe in those phenomena.
15:37.474 --> 15:39.635
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't, he shouldn't be studied.
15:39.935 --> 15:40.335
[SPEAKER_01]: Martin,
15:41.115 --> 15:58.164
[SPEAKER_01]: probably doesn't believe it but he still thinks they should be studied because he thinks that you know there's this even if there's only a small probability there being real the implications if they were really so important that you should put happens into it anyway so in that sense I've always felt Martin wasn't a bit I had a broader range of interests
15:58.884 --> 16:00.967
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what about John Paul Kinghorn?
16:01.749 --> 16:10.923
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, John, of course, I mean, he was a spiritual person because he gave up his professorship of physics to become a priest and then actually rose higher in the academic.
16:11.632 --> 16:16.817
[SPEAKER_01]: community, ironically, that way, then it became Master of Queens College, President of Queens College.
16:16.837 --> 16:21.341
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a certain sense, he rose higher in the academic world than he would, and if he just stayed a professor.
16:21.821 --> 16:28.106
[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, John is another of my heroes because he brings together science and spirituality.
16:28.126 --> 16:31.629
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, he comes from a specifically Christian perspective.
16:32.370 --> 16:40.497
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a big effect on my life because he taught me, but also when I applied for a fellowship at Trinity, he was my champion because you had to have a champion to make your case.
16:40.517 --> 16:46.822
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really enjoyed his insights about the leaks between science and spirituality.
16:46.862 --> 16:48.823
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course he also won the Temple of Prize.
16:50.056 --> 17:03.023
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was very humble, I think, you know, he was very humble and that's why I always think humility is part of the wisdom, in some sense of a scientist.
17:03.643 --> 17:06.965
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that Einstein, for example, certainly even,
17:07.525 --> 17:11.326
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, he had a smooth review of God, but I would say he was a spiritual person.
17:11.426 --> 17:23.089
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think an editing and spiritual aspects in a funny way, I tend to think that many of the greatest scientists have, if you like, a mystical or a spiritual side.
17:23.609 --> 17:24.370
[SPEAKER_01]: Not all of them.
17:24.470 --> 17:29.171
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the other, the other physicists I had huge respect for was Fiman.
17:30.418 --> 17:34.960
[SPEAKER_01]: But he again was, he was a brilliant physicist and with huge insights.
17:35.020 --> 17:38.321
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, completely opposed to what did he do with spirituality.
17:38.361 --> 17:43.143
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think you would have described five of this humble, for example.
17:43.603 --> 17:44.764
[SPEAKER_01]: Ha.
17:45.044 --> 17:52.547
[SPEAKER_01]: I think another point is that, you know, there's a book about the physicists who have actually been spiritual.
17:52.647 --> 17:55.088
[SPEAKER_01]: Quite a lot of great physicists have been spiritual.
17:55.748 --> 18:00.360
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's probably fair to say that the reason they are mystically inclined.
18:01.330 --> 18:06.494
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't directly come from their studies of the physical world, it comes from their own experience.
18:07.215 --> 18:18.764
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when you look at the physical world, if you are of a religious inclination, you will see evidence for the divine, if you're of an atheistic inclination, you will see evidence for the lack of divine.
18:19.104 --> 18:24.128
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't actually think that you get evidence for the divine from the physical world.
18:24.168 --> 18:28.091
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the evidence for the divine comes from the inner world.
18:28.900 --> 18:29.760
[SPEAKER_01]: from experience.
18:30.521 --> 18:37.684
[SPEAKER_01]: But the irony is is that in some sense I think in the final paradigm we're going to merge the outer world and the inner world.
18:38.585 --> 18:47.649
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what the because if the final paradigm is going to accommodate mind, it has to say in some sense the outer universe and the inner universe are merged.
18:48.470 --> 18:50.751
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I think God, if whatever
18:54.495 --> 19:02.078
[SPEAKER_01]: because we're saying that the evidence for God comes from the inner world, not from the outer world, and yet the final paradigm is going to merge the inner and the outer world.
19:02.138 --> 19:08.560
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I think if you like God, the consciousness is going to be part of that final paradigm.
19:09.841 --> 19:13.422
[SPEAKER_02]: That's rather a long and involved answer to your question.
19:14.990 --> 19:27.394
[SPEAKER_02]: But I have another question, which is from a practical point of view, how do we assist or assist the cultivation of some wisdom in the future scientists?
19:28.935 --> 19:32.136
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I talked about various aspects of wisdom.
19:32.796 --> 19:37.058
[SPEAKER_01]: Toss of it is of course to do with, as I said, using the technology
19:38.559 --> 19:39.619
[SPEAKER_01]: in a wise way.
19:39.679 --> 19:45.001
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, we want a future which is human centre, rather than the techno centre.
19:45.361 --> 19:55.963
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we must always be aware of the fact that when we talk about the technological aspects of science, it must be for the benefit of humanity.
19:56.464 --> 19:59.144
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's to be what's quite an important point.
20:00.045 --> 20:03.145
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do we assist the cultivation of wisdom?
20:06.299 --> 20:11.648
[SPEAKER_02]: cannot wait until a person is already practicing a great amount of science.
20:12.129 --> 20:15.154
[SPEAKER_02]: By that time, their whole mental attitude is fixed.
20:16.175 --> 20:19.581
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it has to really begin at a very early stage of.
20:20.817 --> 20:26.641
[SPEAKER_02]: how the kids are growing up, what kind of education they experience or they are subjected to.
20:27.382 --> 20:43.874
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I am really asking you, what is your impression, how can we at that time, because as I see what goes on in the schools, most of the places, most of the time, to compete with each other so you can get a better scholarship or you can get to a better college.
20:44.695 --> 20:45.275
[SPEAKER_02]: There is how
20:49.277 --> 20:53.639
[SPEAKER_02]: cultivation that leads to wisdom rather than just competition.
20:55.240 --> 21:10.207
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is so important because, I mean, I've always said that if there is going to be a post-materialist science, which accommodates spirituality, scientists have to become more spiritual.
21:11.628 --> 21:20.530
[SPEAKER_01]: of course you can argue about what do you mean by spirituality, but I mean as you correctly say, science at the moment is it's very competitive.
21:21.545 --> 21:28.769
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have to, it's competitive because you're competing for grants, you're competing for positions.
21:28.809 --> 21:31.470
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not easy to get permanent academic positions now.
21:31.910 --> 21:33.571
[SPEAKER_01]: You're competing for status.
21:33.751 --> 21:41.315
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to show that you get, you've got your brilliant idea of physics, the explanation of quasars or something before anybody else.
21:41.915 --> 21:45.677
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's competitive and it's egocentric, you know, it is based on the
21:46.337 --> 21:50.521
[SPEAKER_01]: be showing that I'm a great scientist and that of course is the opposite of spirituality.
21:51.061 --> 22:05.435
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what you're saying is that the whole culture of science in some sense is it odds with the culture of spirituality, mind you even the spiritual domain there may be elements of competitiveness and ego as well but in theory there shouldn't be.
22:06.055 --> 22:10.740
[SPEAKER_01]: So the question is how you overcome that, how do you make scientists more spiritual?
22:11.900 --> 22:14.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think I agree with you.
22:14.642 --> 22:18.986
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of it is actually educating people at a younger stage.
22:19.767 --> 22:28.295
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, now we live in a very materialistic culture and that materialistic culture is part of a result of the success of science, but it's also a result of the...
22:29.372 --> 22:43.520
[SPEAKER_01]: our conditioning through the whole educational system, and so your right is when people at school you've got to inculcate that level of interest and going beyond the material domain, essentially.
22:44.321 --> 22:51.105
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, a lot of the traditions you're trying to inculcate are not being self, it's just what in some sense you're doing through religion anyway.
22:51.745 --> 23:00.659
[SPEAKER_01]: You could say that the one reason reason that science is so competitive is because it's lost the religious aspect of
23:02.056 --> 23:04.939
[SPEAKER_01]: of thinking of the greater good of other people and things like that.
23:05.620 --> 23:18.974
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sort of agreeing with you that if you've got to incoucate people throughout the educational system when they're younger and it all is a make a difference by the time you get to the level of academia and things like that.
23:19.554 --> 23:23.058
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there is a more basic issue here.
23:24.580 --> 23:39.668
[SPEAKER_02]: Because my impression is, there may be many studies about it as well, which I am not necessarily aware of, that whatever the mind encounters, it wishes to control it and to predict it.
23:41.389 --> 23:50.013
[SPEAKER_02]: Where this is the reason why, from a spiritual point of view, almost the fundamental call is first of all, to quieten the mind.
23:51.638 --> 24:00.305
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, this is the first substantial sutra in the yoga sutras, that yoga is cultivating the stillness of the mind.
24:01.266 --> 24:16.958
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can listen to any great contemporary ones or old ones, like the Buddha or Christ or Contemporary ones, if you have met somebody, like, say, Krishna Murthy or Randa Salsman and my own experience, wonderful people.
24:18.178 --> 24:20.700
[SPEAKER_02]: They are very strongly emphasizing.
24:20.800 --> 24:25.603
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, Krishna Mouthi uses this expression intelligence beyond thought.
24:26.803 --> 24:29.065
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not my expression, it's the expression he uses.
24:29.645 --> 24:45.175
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is really very much based on the traditionally, it will be way of saying, quieting the mind, so that there is an awareness coming from a subtler or we may say higher level, but subtler level.
24:46.258 --> 24:57.432
[SPEAKER_02]: So, therefore it seems to me, if you look at the whole scientific activity, almost of necessity is mentally oriented.
25:00.096 --> 25:03.917
[SPEAKER_02]: And therefore, it always wants to control something or predict something.
25:04.557 --> 25:12.659
[SPEAKER_02]: Even when we discover something as profusically, we can't really control those enormous galaxies, trillions of miles away.
25:13.219 --> 25:18.361
[SPEAKER_02]: But still, there is always what we can predict from this, what we can do next time.
25:18.641 --> 25:20.981
[SPEAKER_02]: There is that tendency very strong there.
25:22.822 --> 25:27.203
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the whole suggestion from the spiritual point of view,
25:28.418 --> 25:34.503
[SPEAKER_02]: is to submit to something which is not in my control, but it can bless me.
25:34.723 --> 25:44.792
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the simple reminder after all you and I did not create ourselves, is not my breath which is keeping me alive, is that divine breath.
25:45.452 --> 25:54.500
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, you probably know that already you may have heard me say that, in Sanskrit as well as in Hebrew, the word for breath also means spirit.
25:56.222 --> 26:00.405
[SPEAKER_02]: So the breath in me is the spirit in me keeping this body alive.
26:00.525 --> 26:03.526
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that I made this body or I'm keeping this alive.
26:04.447 --> 26:12.131
[SPEAKER_02]: So therefore the suggestion from all spiritual practices, it doesn't matter from whether they are Christian or Muslim or Hindu.
26:12.171 --> 26:14.393
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just side issues.
26:15.504 --> 26:17.666
[SPEAKER_02]: because each one gets stuck with their own thing.
26:18.186 --> 26:43.128
[SPEAKER_02]: But the fundamental requirement in all of these traditions is our teachings, is to be more and more free of my assertion, my achievement, got expressed in various ways, die to yourself is one way of saying it, or the way Christ said, unless you leave yourself behind, you cannot be a follower of mine.
26:43.725 --> 26:54.162
[SPEAKER_02]: So it gets expressed in varieties of ways, but the call is to be free of precisely the element in me which is trying to control whatever it encounters.
26:56.473 --> 27:09.498
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I agree with that, Ravi, but the question is, how do you persuade most of the scientific community, because I'm talking as a scientist, to adopt that attitude?
27:10.258 --> 27:16.681
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose if you persuaded all the scientists to meditate, for example, they might end up taking that view.
27:18.259 --> 27:22.842
[SPEAKER_01]: But normally, the people who take that view are people who are spiritual to begin with.
27:22.882 --> 27:31.488
[SPEAKER_01]: So either through some experience they've had, and of course it may be in a Christian tradition or a Buddhist traditional or a Hindu tradition, whatever it is.
27:32.529 --> 27:42.416
[SPEAKER_01]: They're aware of that element, and that means that they are, they're not so prone to trying to control in the way that you are commenting on.
27:49.103 --> 27:52.865
[SPEAKER_01]: persuade scientists to take on the characteristics you're advocating.
27:53.685 --> 28:11.232
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to say they should all go through a meditation class when they're young or you know it's really first of all more a matter of this is always the case if you look at some of the great scientists like Einstein is a good example of this.
28:13.240 --> 28:19.865
[SPEAKER_02]: or some of the people I met at the Institute of Advanced Study, the person who inherited Einstein chair there.
28:20.666 --> 28:40.041
[SPEAKER_02]: They have not only humility in the social kind of sense, but really a deep understanding that something comes into them even their insights in scientific world are being blessings from some higher level, not from their achievement.
28:41.563 --> 28:44.245
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that a person doesn't have to do one's own work.
28:45.066 --> 28:51.511
[SPEAKER_02]: But there is always, for example, you know, Einstein's remark, I think you may have read it somewhere else.
28:52.071 --> 28:56.294
[SPEAKER_02]: People asking him whether ultimately creativity is all a matter of chance.
28:57.035 --> 29:00.157
[SPEAKER_02]: They use the word chance rather than using grace or something other.
29:00.958 --> 29:05.421
[SPEAKER_02]: And Einstein's remark was rather interesting that ultimately, it is a matter of chance.
29:06.082 --> 29:09.144
[SPEAKER_02]: But chance favors the prepared.
29:11.354 --> 29:27.025
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the scientific enterprise in my judgment is a kind of a preparation, but on the other hand, an acceptance there is, there are domains much higher than ourselves.
29:27.285 --> 29:30.547
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, in the biblical tradition, you know, you have it.
29:31.112 --> 29:37.642
[SPEAKER_02]: Nine orders of angels, they are all above human beings, and God is still above them.
29:38.283 --> 29:42.549
[SPEAKER_02]: So to recognize that we don't have the monopoly of truth.
29:43.404 --> 29:45.906
[SPEAKER_01]: This is really an important contribution.
29:46.546 --> 29:56.694
[SPEAKER_01]: I can resonate with that, Ravi, because many scientists will assume that when they have some brilliant idea that it comes from their own heads, so they get the credit.
29:57.295 --> 30:04.100
[SPEAKER_01]: But it seems to me that many of the greatest ideas in science actually, in some sense, come from outside.
30:05.321 --> 30:10.405
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a statement about creativity in general, not necessarily scientific creativity.
30:11.145 --> 30:20.627
[SPEAKER_01]: The greatest inspirations being it in as having a scientific idea or thinking about creating a piece of music or a great work of art, a great work of literature.
30:21.448 --> 30:31.430
[SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to say, oh it comes from me, I should get the credit, but I believe that the greatest ideas actually come from outside, and one is receiving by grace.
30:32.382 --> 30:34.363
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's sort of evidence for that too.
30:34.383 --> 30:36.704
[SPEAKER_01]: You often have in the history of science.
30:36.764 --> 30:41.446
[SPEAKER_01]: You will have different people have the same idea at the simultaneous.
30:41.646 --> 30:44.247
[SPEAKER_01]: It's though the idea is in the air and it's being picked up.
30:44.647 --> 30:44.807
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:44.887 --> 30:46.668
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think also in science.
30:47.008 --> 30:47.368
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
30:47.408 --> 30:50.769
[SPEAKER_01]: I got interested in these topics when I was about 15.
30:50.829 --> 30:51.590
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had some...
30:52.290 --> 31:05.754
[SPEAKER_01]: sudden on idea, you know, I was interested in the three worlds of Matrimone experience and I had a sudden idea as to how they could be brought together, which involved the paradigm I like, of hard mentions and things like that.
31:05.834 --> 31:10.876
[SPEAKER_01]: But the details of the paradigm don't matter, but the point was that I felt
31:11.858 --> 31:15.382
[SPEAKER_01]: an inspiration that this had to be the truth in some sense.
31:15.982 --> 31:19.706
[SPEAKER_01]: But it then took 50 years to try and work it out using the rational mind.
31:19.746 --> 31:24.532
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the mistake is to assume that science is just a result of reason.
31:25.858 --> 31:26.999
[SPEAKER_01]: and personal effort.
31:27.399 --> 31:32.362
[SPEAKER_01]: I think actually there are other sources of progress.
31:33.102 --> 31:35.903
[SPEAKER_01]: It's inspiration, as well as just reason.
31:36.584 --> 31:40.146
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what a why scientists will realize.
31:40.386 --> 31:48.810
[SPEAKER_01]: But the point about that is once you appreciate that these are ideas and some come from the outside, you're not making it so egotistical.
31:48.830 --> 31:51.932
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not saying this is me, me coming up with this idea.
31:51.952 --> 31:52.132
[SPEAKER_01]: You're
31:53.953 --> 31:58.936
[SPEAKER_01]: You're more humble that universe is actually revealing the universe through you.
31:59.216 --> 32:00.076
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I see it.
32:01.017 --> 32:03.238
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know the famous quotation from T.S.
32:03.318 --> 32:03.718
[SPEAKER_00]: Eliot?
32:04.239 --> 32:08.821
[SPEAKER_00]: The only wisdom we can hope to acquire is the wisdom of humility.
32:09.381 --> 32:10.542
[SPEAKER_00]: Humility is endless.
32:11.002 --> 32:12.443
[SPEAKER_00]: He says in the Four Quartets.
32:13.774 --> 32:20.037
[SPEAKER_01]: That's lovely, and I must, I think when I talked about the attributes of wisdom, it was one of the what's humility.
32:20.758 --> 32:23.039
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I'm bringing it in.
32:23.499 --> 32:23.939
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
32:23.959 --> 32:26.140
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'll thank you for that earlier quote, which is sort of...
32:26.320 --> 32:34.324
[SPEAKER_02]: But another idea is, earlier as a reminder, wisdom, which is lost in knowledge and knowledge which is lost in information.
32:36.305 --> 32:41.828
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, yeah, in physics, we would very much emphasize the information part that has become
32:43.807 --> 32:54.351
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, of course there is always the distinction between information and wisdom because you can teach information, but you don't, that doesn't give you the wisdom.
32:55.131 --> 33:03.794
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to give a quote from Einstein, which says that wisdom is not a product of schooling, but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.
33:13.970 --> 33:27.841
[SPEAKER_02]: but even coming to information now that one of the difficulties is since the end of the 17th century, more particularly emphasized in the 18th, that the only avenue to truth is science.
33:28.722 --> 33:35.287
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, music cannot help you understand anything about the universe, or painting cannot help you understand.
33:35.387 --> 33:37.328
[SPEAKER_02]: None of the arts only science.
33:42.604 --> 33:53.410
[SPEAKER_02]: the great German philosopher, Guaite, and he tried even to hero the book on optics, which was a little differently based on what Newton was would say.
33:54.410 --> 34:06.437
[SPEAKER_02]: But to me, this is, for example, initially, especially until the end of the 19th century, in physics, everything is coming from matter, all you need to do is MLT, Mars, length, time.
34:07.815 --> 34:28.932
[SPEAKER_02]: This whole fundamental assumption has been so strongly emphasized since then of course we have added charge and we had added spin but it still remains that basically it is matter that is much more important than almost anything else which from a spiritual point of view only a completely negative idea.
34:29.978 --> 34:35.139
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I think it's so important to expand science beyond the domain of the material.
34:36.060 --> 34:46.922
[SPEAKER_01]: At least I've always assumed the whole ideal of post-materialist science is to expand science beyond the domain of the material world to the mental world and the spiritual world.
34:47.602 --> 34:57.185
[SPEAKER_01]: And actually I'd like to ask you your opinion about this Ravi because it's always seen to me that the paradigm shift required to do that really goes into steps.
34:58.145 --> 35:08.453
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, you want to try and expand science beyond the material domain to incorporate mind, and that means, of course, consciousness as well.
35:09.434 --> 35:16.079
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say already that's almost becoming mainstream now because of developments in cognitive science and, and, uh,
35:16.719 --> 35:23.825
[SPEAKER_01]: quantum theory and things like that, it's almost accepted now that science has to expand to a comedy mind.
35:23.845 --> 35:28.489
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean not just in the sense of psychology, but in some deeper sense.
35:29.030 --> 35:37.357
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why so many people like pen rows and physicists like pen rows take the view that we have to expand physics to a comedy consciousness.
35:38.818 --> 35:39.218
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a
35:41.683 --> 35:44.844
[SPEAKER_01]: But then I've always thought, well, that's the first step.
35:44.864 --> 35:50.166
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you've got to have a second paradigm shift to accommodate spirituality.
35:50.206 --> 35:54.367
[SPEAKER_01]: Because remember, I talked about the three worlds matter, mind, and spirit.
35:54.588 --> 35:58.309
[SPEAKER_01]: We think of science as being associated with the material world.
35:58.789 --> 36:02.530
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to expand it in my view to accommodate the mental world.
36:04.691 --> 36:18.844
[SPEAKER_01]: while I was saying that you need some expansion of physics, which will accommodate mind, but then you've got to expand it to accommodate the spiritual world as well, and I see that as a second paradigm shift, which is going to take longer.
36:18.884 --> 36:25.349
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're already on the verge of a paradigm shift, which is going to expand the science, the mental domain.
36:26.390 --> 36:29.532
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think expanding science to accommodate the spiritual.
36:29.552 --> 36:32.013
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one extra, that's a bigger step.
36:32.193 --> 36:33.994
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's going to take longer.
36:34.074 --> 36:38.416
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would be interested in your reaction to that Ravi.
36:38.456 --> 36:46.200
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do you think that science will actually be expanded to accommodate the spiritual domain?
36:47.269 --> 37:01.555
[SPEAKER_02]: The tragedy is I even wonder how long the planet will survive or the human beings will survive here the way it is going because we keep creating bigger and bigger weapons and destroying more and more everything around so
37:02.937 --> 37:12.825
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there is all so many of the people studying physics, including you, of course, become you and I coming from that background, you can look at it.
37:13.345 --> 37:18.269
[SPEAKER_02]: Most of them end up serving working either for the military or for the industry.
37:19.630 --> 37:27.596
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean for more and more material gain or conquering others, dominating others?
37:29.403 --> 37:38.326
[SPEAKER_02]: So, unless we can change that remark there, any notion that in the future, we will have another paradigm shift.
37:39.966 --> 37:45.868
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's just imagination, because it requires to look at the present situation.
37:47.388 --> 37:53.530
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really, therefore coming back to this remarkable plan, he was not a foolish person saying this.
37:55.402 --> 38:09.027
[SPEAKER_02]: If we see the difficulty or really more or less the immense impact of contemporary, these days, for example, artificial intelligence, who is going to use it more and more for what purpose?
38:10.287 --> 38:13.788
[SPEAKER_02]: For destruction or gaining something for personal gain.
38:14.608 --> 38:19.030
[SPEAKER_02]: So what is really required, it seems to me, is not trying to change
38:20.198 --> 38:26.681
[SPEAKER_02]: the people who are already working in science, because by that time they have already grown up, they have a certain attitude.
38:27.762 --> 38:38.568
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, fundamental requirement is teaching at a very elementary level, the young kids going to school.
38:39.348 --> 38:42.310
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel that this is where we need to come back again and again.
38:42.910 --> 38:47.833
[SPEAKER_02]: And then allow the possibility that what is understood through music or through art,
38:48.964 --> 38:56.352
[SPEAKER_02]: is something slightly different than what is understood through whatever is called scientific work these days.
38:57.233 --> 38:58.494
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my impression over.
38:59.115 --> 39:09.666
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would say there's a distinction rather though between having a conceptual paradigm which is going to link matter and mind and spirit.
39:11.040 --> 39:12.422
[SPEAKER_01]: which is purely theoretical.
39:12.482 --> 39:23.272
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have my own conceptual paradigm, which is all to do with the fact that you've got hard dimensions and you have to expand physics beyond space and time to accommodate these extra dimensions and those extra dimensions.
39:24.573 --> 39:29.999
[SPEAKER_01]: That is that if you like the arena of mind and spirit, but that's a sort of intellectual approach.
39:31.028 --> 39:34.711
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see that as feasible, that there is something one could achieve.
39:34.731 --> 39:44.098
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it may not be right, it may be rubbish, but I'd feel that it can be an intellectual theory, which is going to link the three worlds of matter of mind and spirit.
39:44.419 --> 39:55.827
[SPEAKER_01]: Your addressing the issue from a more practical perspective about why in practice it may be hard for this to happen, and the sort of this all relates to the question about
39:56.708 --> 40:00.673
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only scientists, but society as a whole, in some sense, has to become more spiritual.
40:00.693 --> 40:02.776
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there are two distinct issues.
40:03.256 --> 40:11.506
[SPEAKER_01]: And the point is, for example, I spend a lot of my time if you're preaching about the paradigm which I think is going to accommodate.
40:12.247 --> 40:13.927
[SPEAKER_01]: mind and spirit duality.
40:14.528 --> 40:18.509
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't for a moment think that having such a paradigm makes one more spiritual.
40:18.529 --> 40:26.391
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm often thinking about prime of entry models of spirit duality, but it doesn't help me become enlightened or anything like that.
40:26.471 --> 40:34.593
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you're sort of drawing a decision between a conceptual paradigm and the actual practical aspects of that.
40:35.268 --> 40:42.030
[SPEAKER_01]: The early other topic, I don't know if we got time David, the other topic, I would like to mention because Rabbi mentioned the word AI.
40:42.630 --> 40:45.971
[SPEAKER_01]: And I currently have got a B and my bond is about AI.
40:46.031 --> 40:55.513
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated in the question of, we talked about technology having positive and negative aspects and AI is to me there's a pre-example of that.
40:57.013 --> 41:04.255
[SPEAKER_01]: I can have tremendously positive aspects in the sense that it can actually, we've got this huge,
41:05.386 --> 41:23.618
[SPEAKER_01]: exponential increase of information now, I'm talking about science alone, then it comes back to ethics again, it's impossible essentially for any individual sciences to understand everything that's going on, you have to focus more and more narrowly to make a contribution, this is within science.
41:24.499 --> 41:40.057
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's the great thing about AI, it has this enormous knowledge of everything that's going on in the sense that it knows all the papers that's being written on the topic and it can operate, it can read all this information and provide.
41:40.077 --> 41:42.720
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, knowing and reading, that's slightly metaphorical isn't it?
41:42.880 --> 41:49.043
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, but the point I'm making David is that's a positive aspect and it's making great contributions to medical research.
41:49.323 --> 41:59.148
[SPEAKER_01]: It may even come up with the final theory of everything before humans, I didn't know, but of course the negative aspects of it is that AI lacks humanity.
41:59.848 --> 42:13.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And in some sense AI should always be the servant, but the dangerous that AI is going to become the master, because AI most mental activities AI can now do better than humans.
42:13.675 --> 42:15.235
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it can be to the chest.
42:15.656 --> 42:20.918
[SPEAKER_01]: When I write papers now, I can give it to AI, and it'll go through, and it'll correct the papers.
42:20.958 --> 42:22.259
[SPEAKER_01]: It will say you can improve this.
42:22.279 --> 42:24.200
[SPEAKER_01]: You can, this equation has got a mistake.
42:24.240 --> 42:28.942
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a great tool, but the danger is it's going to make humans redundant.
42:29.542 --> 42:45.552
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, to me, I think the really important issue of our ages, what is the role of AI because some people think that AI is the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the spirituality, you know, it's just a machine, it doesn't understand meaning or anything like that.
42:46.352 --> 42:53.400
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not convinced about that because in a funny way AI, it seems to me as rather like a universal mind.
42:53.480 --> 43:01.128
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems to have this knowledge, like the Akashit record, this knowledge of everything, which I think can be very useful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In some sense, the AI accesses this cosmic consciousness, in some sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: because it connects all the minds in a way which is very efficient.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So individuals, we can't see the wood for the trees, we have to focus very narrowly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But AI, in some sense, can see the principal can see the wood.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's very important, but only it also a tremendous threat.
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[SPEAKER_01]: because it can make humans redundant.
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[SPEAKER_00]: lethal autonomous weapons.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To me, the question is, will AI develop consciousness?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or will it even develop a soul?
43:41.057 --> 43:46.119
[SPEAKER_01]: And most of my spiritual friends, which probably includes both Ravian David, will take the view that
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[SPEAKER_01]: it will never develop consciousness or a soul.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not convinced because I think if you believe that the brain is a filter of consciousness rather than a producer of consciousness, I don't see in principle why consciousness with a big sea can't actually be operating through other systems who don't based on flesh and blood.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I am not convinced.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I've been provoked of here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I am not convinced that AI will not eventually develop consciousness or even soul or creativity or even genius.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm a genius, it's probably not already, but Ravi, just a closing remark, I think.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think Bernard should make the closing remark if he wishes to because we were here to really invite him to speak about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But he just, whatever he said right now, I think we can be even his remark about AI.
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[SPEAKER_02]: whether we agree or don't agree doesn't matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's good to have that to end with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we can stop.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the question is more important to the answer because of course, oh, I'm starting with, it's a really important question.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know what the answer is, but I see AI, it's just a baby at the moment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's growing at such an amazing rate who can tell what it's going to be like, what it's for the growth.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's an organic analogy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't organic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, thank you very much, both of you for joining this episode of Wise Scientists.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Rabbi and David.
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[SPEAKER_02]: May you all be blessed.
