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Jesse Jackson Junior, Hello, my friend, welcome to when you
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know you know Unleashed. So good to see you, my friend.
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I have so many questions that I want to ask you.
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I want to start with what's happening to the Democratic Party?
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What's happening with this DSA movement when you have people
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like Catherine Foung, your people like el Sayed, you have
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people like mayor Mom Donnie here in New York literally
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hijacking your party, my party, and taking over with ideology
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that is so different than the ideology that the Democratic
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Party has been following for I don't know what two
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hundred and fifty years. Where do we go? What do
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we do?
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Well? First of all, I'm not so sure that what
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we're witnessing is a hijacking. What we are confirming is
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that there are extremes on both sides of the political spectrum,
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and some people go too far, some people's issues go
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too far. But one thing is certain that the reasonable
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amongst us will end up in some kind of middle,
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some kind of synthesis that makes sense on the future
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direction of the country. And so those extremes are making
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themselves evident. The idea of banning the police or dissolving
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police departments is completely unacceptable. But the idea of providing
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healthcare and economic security for all Americans is not an
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unreasonable request given the size and scope of our government
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and the history of our government's capacity to do so.
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So where do we go from here? Well, where we
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go from here is find the reasonable middle and find
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out how we can reach out on both sides to
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accomplish critical legislation that matters to every single American. How
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we do that in this environment is going to require
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great courage.
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Michael, Well, I think it's more than courage. I think
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we're missing a sense of reality. You know, in my
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sub stack today, I actually start writing about this DSA
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ideology within which to step into the pockets of individuals
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that they deem wealthy. And the chair or one of
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the co chairs of the DSA movement can't even express
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what the term rich means to this movement, the DSA movement.
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So yeah, I get it, I too. Like you want
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to see billionaires pay their fast share. They should, they
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should want to, it's their obligation to America. But what
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classifies is rich because once they finish going after the billionaires,
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well then they go after the millionaires, and after the millionaires,
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it'll be the working people, the people who build businesses,
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the retirees, it's going to be every single person that
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they deem rich, which again they don't have even a
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definition of that's the problem. Their ideology doesn't have backing
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that makes sense to anyone, at least to me.
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That's a problem. I think one of the clear, clearest
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plumb lines, if you will, is what Reagan said in
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nineteen eighty. I believe it was are you better off
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now than you were for you years ago? And so
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the economy itself and how people are functioning in the economy,
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how they're faring in the economy, isn't tied to a
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particular titular head of the Democratic Socialists of America. It
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is not tied to a particular Democrat. It may not
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even be tied to a particular Republican. If you're paying
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high rent in New York, if you're not getting the
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proper quality of life or education for your children, these
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aren't issues. These are issues that defy labels, whether they're
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democratic socialist or not, whether they are extreme maga or
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they are not. In the final analysis, the American people
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are crying out for a government that is of, for
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and by them, that provides them with the kind of
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economic security that they need and that they deserve. I
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am not convinced, however, that by placing labels on the genuine,
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legitimate economic needs of the American people is helpful. And
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so we recognize what the shortcomings are. We are looking
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at an upward shift of wealth. The world is now
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experiencing and witnessing its first true millionaires. There is now
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a race amongst other billionaires to become trillionaires. There is
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a quick movement towards the AI economy, which is dislocating millions.
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If not it is dislocating millions of working Americans with
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more efficient ways in which to make a profit to
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get to being a billionaire or a trillionaire. And so,
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at some point in time, we're going to have to
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reflect upon what the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of
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the country represents. Did the founding fathers of this nation
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build a nation and a constitution for corporations citizens united?
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Did it build personhood into companies or did it create
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an instrument for people. There's been a long struggle to
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define what it means to be a person in the
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context of this country. And we're still fighting for that definition.
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And so until we change the Constitution and says well,
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automatons or sentient people or robots have rights and that
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there should be some people have more money than the
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entire your Defense Department of the United States government. Personally,
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I think that's deeply troubling and we should be all
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concerned about that. I don't want to give that a label.
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I want to give that a profound and serious concern.
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And if we discuss it as a concern and not
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as a label, Michael, I think we can make progress.
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But we're not the ones that are creating the label.
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They actually are. They're running on a Democrat Socialist of
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America platform. They are part of the way the Tea
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Party was part of the Republican Party, the DSSAY is
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a major part and they are becoming an even bigger
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part of the Democratic Party. The question I would ask you,
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and I want you to answer it almost for me
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as well as your friend. Explain to me, please, where
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does that leave you in the Democratic Party? Where would
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that leave somebody like myself? Because I walked away from
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the Democratic Party, I now identify as an independent. I
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will never ever be a part of a group that
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takes individuals, you know, like a gram Platner who is
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an anti Semite, and actually elevates him to a status
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of import you know, as the son of a Holocaust survivor.
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I cannot, I cannot ascribe to a group of people
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that think that the answer is a guy with a
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Nazi symbol on his chest. So where does that leave us, Jesse, Well.
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It certainly leaves us with a historic reflection and a
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determination to do better by both Democrats and Republicans. For me,
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particularly me and the concerns that I've raised. There were
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one hundred and fifty seven July fourths from sixteen nineteen
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to eighteen sixty three. They didn't mean anything to African Americans.
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Then there were another eighty eight July fourths from Gettysburg
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all the way to I'm sorry, from that period to Gettysburg,
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and at Gettysburg on July fourth, something's changing, We're towards
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something different. There were one fifty seven July fourths, then
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there were eighty eight July fourths that meant nothing. And
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now each July fourth after Gettysburg has been a fundamentally
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different interpretation. African Americans coming out of Gettysburg show their
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loyalty to Abraham Lincoln. Even Martin Luther King Junior's father
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was a Republican. We were not Southern Dixiecrats and Democrats.
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And yet we find ourselves, even at this hour, in
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a party with Southern Democrats, with some Dixiecrats, with some
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DSA members, with the disabled, with the gays and lesbians,
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with many other groups who are part of a big tent,
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who want their citizenship rights as well as their humanities affirmed.
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I start with that basic premise and I'm not going
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to walk away from it. But I'm not walking also
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towards any labels. I like the idea of being an
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independent Democrat. I think that's fair. I think that's reasonable ground.
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I don't think it's I think it's label free. But
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I reserve the right to define who I am, just
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as I know you do as well.
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Well. Yeah, but we don't get to define ourselves anymore.
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You know, we can try to define ourselves. We can
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have our show as you have your Jesse Jackson show
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I now have when you know, you know, including this podcast,
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unleash a portion of it. So yeah, we can define ourselves,
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but we are being pushed further and further out of
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the Democratic Party. Look, I have always maintained one thing
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that I am and will always be a fiscal conservative,
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and I will always be a social moderate. It's just
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who I am. And the amount of the attacks, and
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I know you get it also, the amount of attacks
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that social media platforms allow against individuals like yourself, for myself,
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simply because why I said something that they don't like
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that it's damaging their sense of who they are or
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their ideology. So therefore I get all the expletives. I
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get all of the traders, the grifters, the pieces of shit.
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You know, I get it all as you have gotten
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in the past as well. We are living right now
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in a time where unless you are on the same
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exact page as these individuals, well then they have the
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right within which to cast you out. And that's okay
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for me. I don't mind being cast out by these people.
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Well, I mean to hold that middle, to hold those
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values matter, right, I mean, this too shall pass, This
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period shall pass. I call it America's moral parenthesis, where
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right in the middle of a sentence you see a
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parenthesis that says, okay, the bracket is open. Here is
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the defining point, and then we see a closed parenthesis,
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which defines the sentence itself. America's sentence is still without
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definition because the parenthesis has been left open. That's a
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nice way of saying there are periods in American history
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where the things that we've written on people, the values
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that we say we hold, are suspended. And we are
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definitely in that period where the definitions themselves are being
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challenged and being restructured. But some of us have a
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pla online for our moral values and what we believe
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to be true, with the appreciation that this too shall
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pass and that the period shall pass. And what I
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would be very careful of is trying to define myself
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in this era, because when this period passes, you will
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be then redefining yourself in an era that makes even
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more sense than the present era that's taking place, and
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you'll never be able to shake that label. So I
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len Eileen personally in this period on what it means
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to be human. I mean to reach out to people
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of different walks of life, to be human, to be
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decent is something that we lack in today's order. And
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I can't begin to tell you enough just how sensitive
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it is. First we must, in my opinion, which doctor
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Samuel DeWitt Proctor argued, the late preacher of Abyssinian Church
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in New York. He made the case, first we must
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agree that equality is possible. Secondly, we must identify the
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optimum human condition, and then call everyone to embrace equality
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is possible. You're not different than me, I'm not different
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than you. Let us identify that and agree with that.
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Then let us call everyone to embrace it. When Michael
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Callen steps over the line, I'm gonna call you as
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my brother, to a higher standard. If I step over
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the line, I expect you to call me to a
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higher standard. And then, in that spirit of love, we
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actually called each other to embrace it. We're making each
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other better, not worse.
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So on that notion. The amount of hatred Jesse that
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I got, and all along you and I have spoken
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many times on your show, we've spoken off this show.
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We just pick up a phone and call each other
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as I used to from time to time with your father,
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God Rest his soul, wonderful, wonderful man. The amount of
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hate that I got simply because I rekindled a friendship
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a fifteen year friendship that had gone awry over a
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period of eight years. Literally maybe a fight for the
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political books that I'm not really sure I can think of,
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at least in modern history, one that was more vitriolic
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between two people by two friends. The fact that we
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have been successful in putting that part of our lives
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behind us doesn't mean that Trump is changing his positions.
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It doesn't mean Michael Cohen is changing his position. It
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just means that we've valued our friendship for fifteen years,
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which I give him a lot of credit for, and
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we're both able to put aside the differences that we had,
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even the differences in ideology that we still have, and
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still to embrace each other's friends. Can you tell me
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what's wrong with that? Why should I be the subject
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of so much anger and hatred?
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Absolutely nothing wrong with that, And the fact that you're
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a subject of that is deeply challenging to the sense
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of America's values and who they claim to be. My
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father in nineteen eighty four at the Democratic Convention in
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San Francisco used a particular line that I find compelling
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at this moment, and that is this He talked about
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going to visit Hubert Humphrey on his deathbed in Minnesota,
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and Dad asked Hubert Humphrey. He said, Senator, all of
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the big fights are behind you, the political speeches, the
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political battles, the disposition and attitude that had you dug
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in deep on position that you believed in. What is
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the sum of it all? What are your takeaways? What
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did you get from it? Humphrey turned to my father
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and he said, Jesse, in the final analysis, laying here
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in this bed and the final moments of my life,
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closing in on the last breath that I will ever take,
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We're going to have to find a way to forgive
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each other, redeem each other, and move on. In the
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final analysis, That's what it all boils down to. So
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if we want to preserve our union, if we want
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to serve and preserve our country, there are going to
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be these outreach efforts and these moments of reconciliation between
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Michael Cohen and Donald Trump. My father wrote several letters
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to Donald Trump, some of which have become public, some
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of which have not become public, because he really wanted
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to engage the President and encourage him as an outside
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force to consider other possibilities in his thinking. Unfortunately, my father,
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who knew Donald Trump had a friendship with Donald Trump
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when Donald Trump was a Democrat, did not have the
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courtesy or the wherewithal, or the possibility if the letters
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even made it to him to call Reverend Jackson back
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his friend. The outreach continued in spite of the fact
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that he never heard back from the President of the
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United States. So to my point that the outreach can
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never stop the vitriol, it is what it is. But
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the outreach by a minority of people two, even those
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that we disagree with, are factor in our ability to
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move the country forward and reach a level of reasonableness.
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Yeah. But the problem though, is that for example, this
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DSA group, it's very much different than for example, the
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Tea Party. Tea Party had its fringe people onto the side,
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it never really moved anywhere, and ultimately, like all stupid things,
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it fell apart and it just sort of disappeared. DSA
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doesn't seem to be going that way, despite the fact
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that much of what they're preaching is absolutely impossible to implement.
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For example, Mayor Mamdani here in New York, he sold
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New Yorker, specifically the younger generation, a bill of bullshit.
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It's a bill of bullshit that he can never possibly effectuate,
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for example, free groceries or discounted growth, free transportation in
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the system that by the way, you know, it's not
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just New York City the transportation, it's MTA, which is
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a joint venture with New Jersey. I mean, the things
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that he's promising young people who, for whatever the reason
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may be fell for it. Groceries. Let me ask you
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this question, right, because one of the things that they
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keep talking about is ID registration ID for voting. Now,
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whether you agree with it or disagree with it is
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sort of irrelevant for the point I'm trying to make.
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Under Mamdani's policy, you will have to have an ID
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in order to be a part of this government funded
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this New York City funded grocery. So for you to
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get thirty or forty percent off your tomatoes, you have
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to have an ID. But to vote, that's a ligne
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too far. Come on, I mean, that's just stupidity in governance.
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Before I defend mom, Donnie, let me just make this point.
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There was a point in time when the idea of
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loving one's enemy was bullshit. Countries that have been warring
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tribal factions is bullshit. I mean, we shouldn't even pursue
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the ideal establishing the optimum human condition is bullshit. That
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people should have something to eat and be able to
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afford tomatoes. Oh that's bullshit, man. You know, this is
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a capitalist system. If tomatoes can be sold for four
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hundred dollars a tomato or fifty dollars a tomato, it's okay,
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I mean, this is our system. But say, wait a minute,
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is there a process by which people can actually eat
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the optimum human condition? Because at the end of the day,
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Michael Cohen and Jesse Jackson Junior are going to have
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an empty stomach and they're going to want to eat something,
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some form of nourishment. So first, let us agree that
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equality is possible, whatever it's called. Whatever the bill of
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goods that are sold to the American people by the
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far left or the far right. The tariffs haven't proven
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effective for farmers and for working class whites within in
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Donald Trump's base either, So Democrats and Republicans have been
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selling the majority of American people a bill of goods,
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and the bill of sale is too high for us
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to be able to pay for it, and so the
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American people are responding. Now, if it's called the Michael
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Cohen Coalition and the title is no longer DSA, but
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that's what you believe. I think we're in a great space.
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If it's called the Jesse Jackson Coalition, because that's how
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I define it, not as DSA or MEGA, we're in
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a great space, then it's no good.
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Now. I'm teasing with you, of course, I get your point.
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It's just you can't sell people a bill of goods
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that ultimately will fail down the road. You cannot turn
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around and ask somebody to provide an ID because their
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beliefs is Michael.
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What Donald Trump has shown us, What Donald Trump has
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shown us, is that you can sell people anything. They
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have to be able to discern. They have to be
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able to discern what makes sense and what does not
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make sense, and what is plausible and what is possible.
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And so when a person casts that vote, they step
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into the voting booth with full knowledge of their independence
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and their freedom to make a judgment based upon what
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they've heard, based upon what they've seen, based upon what
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they believe will happen, and then hold the officials accountable.
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I mean, that's our system Michael, you can get up
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and sell people a gold statue in this country and
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actually believe that it's made of gold, or even a
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gold watch for that matter, or what gold cell phones,
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and they're not gold at all, but people buy them.
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You can sell them.
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Care to think that have nobil answer?
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They'll buy it.
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But you answered the point I was bringing up at
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the very beginning of this conversation, which is that this
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Dassay movement is destroying the Democratic Party. In fact, it's
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very funny because I've listened to other podcasters, people who
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I used to call friends that really don't talk to
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me anymore, but they turn around and they're saying the
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same thing that dsay is turning off moderate Democrats, that
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you're now seeing more and more Democrats end up moving
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to the Independent Party, Or at.
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Least I would have been. I would have been that
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you're not wrong about that, Michael, But let me.
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Just say you know where that creates.
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Alexandrio Cassio Cortez came to the Congress of the United States.
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She was bright eyed, bushy tailed, talking a lot of
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health care, education, housing. She went through a very populist
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kind of thesis on the question of what's going on
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from a bartender all the way to Washington's lack of understanding.
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Now now she's more moderate in your thinking, she has
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potentially senatorial and presidential ambitions. Someone has gotten to AOC
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and said, listen, you came here a DSA, but if
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you're going to run this party, you're going to change,
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You're going to mature, You're going to understand that there
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are various factions within this party. And this is true
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a Republican party as well. When some of the Magaites
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came to Congress on the far right, when they had
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to govern, it was a very different story. And so yes,
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there are some things that are being said on the
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far left of the Democratic Party that are not palatable.
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But you can't make what they say what I said,
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I didn't say it.
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They said why people like you and me are stepping
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away kind of from the Democratic Party. In more to
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the independent.
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The DSA has a responsibility to better labeling. They have
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a responsibility to better labeling. They have a responsibility and
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for some of them who've never been in this process,
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there is a long road to toe.
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Yeah, and that's why you're starting to see now fifty
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seven percent I believe was the last number. Fifty seven
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percent of Americans now identify as independent. You know, Jesse,
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months and months ago, you and I had a private conversation.
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We're talking about the midterms and what we thought we
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were going to see in the midterms. I'm not so
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sure at this point in time that the Democrats, who
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had in their minds at least a lock up a
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blue tsunami. I'm not so sure you're going to see
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a blue tsunami, or even a blue tidal wave, or
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even a blue puddle at this point in time for
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the midterm elections. I believe that DSA and I'm not
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as fan of Alexandria Cassio Cortes and her anti Semitic ideology,
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the same that holds true for the Bernie Sanders and
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I don't ascribe to them. I don't like what they're doing,
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and I don't like what they're saying. I don't like
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the Mamdanis of the world. I don't like the Hafan
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Pikers of the world. I just don't. I think they
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take us back to a time that we don't want
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to return to. But then again, that's just my opinion.
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Let me share with you this because, as you know,
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I recently ran for Congress and I was unsuccessful. And
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what I found to be the case in my race,
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and it's increasingly the case in other races around the country,
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is it's been the DSA candidate who argues for affordability
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and the economic concerns of people within congressional districts and
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within states and the American Israeli Political Action Committee that
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is a real factor on the ground, and people are
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voting down the well financed APEC candidates over and against
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what you might want to consider the fringe left. Actually,
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the fringe left don't sell themselves per se as DSA.
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They don't walk around with it on their on a
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blue hat, you know, they don't walk around with it.
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Well, they do, That's the whole thing.
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They're winning races. They're winning races, not on being a DSA.
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They're winning races from senatorial races to congressional primaries. They're
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winning it on their economic message. Call it the Michael Cohen.
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They're winning association, call it the high Israel. They're winning
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it on free this, free that. You know what, Jesse Hindsight,
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I don't think they're anti Israel. I think we believe
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in Israeli security. I'm not anti Israel, but I do
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not belie believe that what Benjamin not in Yahoo is
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doing in the Gaza strip is legal and that it
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can sustain itself. I don't believe that. So there is
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a problem on the ground that APEC needs to fix,
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that not in Yahoo needs to fix, and everyone needs
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to return to the table of peace and brotherhood and
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try the very best to identify recognizable borders of what
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constitutes the state of Israel and then bring both parties together.
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And the United States historically has played a role in that, Michael.
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They are no longer playing that role. They certainly played
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it under Joe Biden, They've played it under Barack Obama.
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They've not been playing it well.
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Under all I know is I two want to see
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peace in the Middle East. I too, have always believed
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that a two state solution is necessary. I also believe
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Israel has a right to defend itself and its borders,
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just as America has its right.
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So what's happening in these campaigns? So what's happened? I
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would say, so, Michael, what's happening in these campaigns? Is
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this this conversation that we're having as a exactly what's
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taking place in democratic primaries. There are candidates in the race,
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and there's money in the race defining this race and
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the Gaza Strip. On the other hand, the DSA candidates,
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the far left of the party are identifying the economic issues.
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People are not voting for a war and endless war
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in the Middle East. They're voting kitchen table issues. Call
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them DSA, call them whatever you want. They're winning and
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guess who's losing. People who are trying to turn the
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American people's attention away from their tables, away from what
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it costs to educate their children, away from five dollars
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for a gallon of gas. Hey, don't be concerned about that.
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Be concerned about what's happening over here in the Gaza Strip.
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Ain't Halman partner?
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And I I'm not so sure I agree with that one,
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my friend. First of all, I believe that had you won,
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had you run your race, your your congressional race, promising
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free shit to everybody, you would have won by a landslide.
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Because that's what they're doing. They're promising things they cannot
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deliver on. You know it, I know it. And as
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far as whether.
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What I represented that district. I represented that district for
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eight elections, for seventeen years in the Congress of the
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United States. I raised three hundred thousand dollars. I was
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leading in every poll until the last two months of
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the campaign when the Air American Israelly political Action Committee
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against the three hundred thousand dollars that I raised, spent
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more than eight million dollars to ensure in two months
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against my campaign. It's that kind of money and heavy
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handedness in these campaigns that the American people are now
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reacting to. They don't want to talk about that. They
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want to talk about bread and butter issues. On bread
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and butter issues, I won the campaign.
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Yeah, mind you, if you really want to talk about issues,
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I'm not worried about five dollars a gallon of Gussie.
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I don't want to pay it. Don't get me wrong,
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I don't want to pay four dollars. I don't even
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want to pay three was a gallon of gifts. You
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know what else I don't want. I don't want a
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nuclear Iran. Every single president for the last forty seven years,
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going on forty eight now, every single president said the
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same thing. Iran must never possess a nuclear weapon. Why
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Because one thing that we do enjoy, Jesse, that is
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not it's inarguable one thing that we absolutely enjoy is
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that when we put our head down at night, that
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we're not going to experience another nine to eleven event
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that we're never going to see from Iran. At least,
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we're never going to see a nuclear device pointed somewhere
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at the United States and sent our way.
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Because that's a great a bunch of that's a great line.
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That's a great line that you've got in the last
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four or five months from Donald Trump, and that line
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is we don't want a nuclear Iran. It took them
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a minute to kind of get it's not me, it's
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every President Trump and accept. That has been the Trump
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and Accept argument since the first bombing of the bunkers
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in Iran. Remember the twenty four hour flight that they
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took with the seven B two stealth bombers and how
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amazingly accurate they were, and the obliteration of nuclear weapons
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and they'll never have a nuclear Iran and all of
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that stuff long before the full scale war by the
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United States with Iran that has now cost more than
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three hundred billion dollars, and at the end of the day,
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it has not reduced the cost of gasoline. Michael, You'd
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have to keep making that argument about a nuclear Iran
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without the capacity to deliver a bomb some four thousand,
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six thousand miles away is not working, Michael. They're losing
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that argument. No one wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
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We all agree on that, but that is not what's
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taking place in these campaigns.
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Well, at least that's my belief. It's belief of every
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president for forty seven years that who has that theocracy
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that you and me, Trump.
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Has done more. I'll give you credit for this. Trump
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has done more.
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To ensure you Jewish even whether you're a moderate, must
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will give you you.
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I will give you credit. I'll give the president. I'll
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give president credit where it is due. He has definitely
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set the nuclear program and nuclear ambitions of Iran back
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one hundred years. Now that we've said it back that far,
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can we get on to something.
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Else, Yes, yes we can, Jesse. I so appreciate you,
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my brother Grace. You please let me know the next
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time that you're back in New York, going have to
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do another dinner. Thank you for joining me. On when
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you know, you know Unleashed
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Jesse Jackson Junior, Hello, my friend, welcome to when you
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know you know Unleashed. So good to see you, my friend.
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I have so many questions that I want to ask you.
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I want to start with what's happening to the Democratic Party?
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What's happening with this DSA movement when you have people
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like Catherine Foung, your people like el Sayed, you have
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people like mayor Mom Donnie here in New York literally
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hijacking your party, my party, and taking over with ideology
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that is so different than the ideology that the Democratic
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Party has been following for I don't know what two
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hundred and fifty years. Where do we go? What do
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we do?
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Well? First of all, I'm not so sure that what
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we're witnessing is a hijacking. What we are confirming is
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that there are extremes on both sides of the political spectrum,
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and some people go too far, some people's issues go
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too far. But one thing is certain that the reasonable
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amongst us will end up in some kind of middle,
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some kind of synthesis that makes sense on the future
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direction of the country. And so those extremes are making
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themselves evident. The idea of banning the police or dissolving
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police departments is completely unacceptable. But the idea of providing
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healthcare and economic security for all Americans is not an
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unreasonable request given the size and scope of our government
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and the history of our government's capacity to do so.
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So where do we go from here? Well, where we
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go from here is find the reasonable middle and find
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out how we can reach out on both sides to
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accomplish critical legislation that matters to every single American. How
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we do that in this environment is going to require
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great courage.
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Michael, Well, I think it's more than courage. I think
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we're missing a sense of reality. You know, in my
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sub stack today, I actually start writing about this DSA
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ideology within which to step into the pockets of individuals
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that they deem wealthy. And the chair or one of
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the co chairs of the DSA movement can't even express
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what the term rich means to this movement, the DSA movement.
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So yeah, I get it, I too. Like you want
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to see billionaires pay their fast share. They should, they
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should want to, it's their obligation to America. But what
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classifies is rich because once they finish going after the billionaires,
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well then they go after the millionaires, and after the millionaires,
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it'll be the working people, the people who build businesses,
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the retirees, it's going to be every single person that
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they deem rich, which again they don't have even a
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definition of that's the problem. Their ideology doesn't have backing
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that makes sense to anyone, at least to me.
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That's a problem. I think one of the clear, clearest
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plumb lines, if you will, is what Reagan said in
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nineteen eighty. I believe it was are you better off
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now than you were for you years ago? And so
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the economy itself and how people are functioning in the economy,
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how they're faring in the economy, isn't tied to a
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particular titular head of the Democratic Socialists of America. It
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is not tied to a particular Democrat. It may not
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even be tied to a particular Republican. If you're paying
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high rent in New York, if you're not getting the
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proper quality of life or education for your children, these
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aren't issues. These are issues that defy labels, whether they're
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democratic socialist or not, whether they are extreme maga or
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they are not. In the final analysis, the American people
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are crying out for a government that is of, for
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and by them, that provides them with the kind of
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economic security that they need and that they deserve. I
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am not convinced, however, that by placing labels on the genuine,
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legitimate economic needs of the American people is helpful. And
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so we recognize what the shortcomings are. We are looking
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at an upward shift of wealth. The world is now
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experiencing and witnessing its first true millionaires. There is now
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a race amongst other billionaires to become trillionaires. There is
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a quick movement towards the AI economy, which is dislocating millions.
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If not it is dislocating millions of working Americans with
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more efficient ways in which to make a profit to
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get to being a billionaire or a trillionaire. And so,
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at some point in time, we're going to have to
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reflect upon what the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of
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the country represents. Did the founding fathers of this nation
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build a nation and a constitution for corporations citizens united?
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Did it build personhood into companies or did it create
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an instrument for people. There's been a long struggle to
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define what it means to be a person in the
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context of this country. And we're still fighting for that definition.
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And so until we change the Constitution and says well,
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automatons or sentient people or robots have rights and that
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there should be some people have more money than the
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entire your Defense Department of the United States government. Personally,
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I think that's deeply troubling and we should be all
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concerned about that. I don't want to give that a label.
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I want to give that a profound and serious concern.
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And if we discuss it as a concern and not
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as a label, Michael, I think we can make progress.
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But we're not the ones that are creating the label.
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They actually are. They're running on a Democrat Socialist of
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America platform. They are part of the way the Tea
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Party was part of the Republican Party, the DSSAY is
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a major part and they are becoming an even bigger
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part of the Democratic Party. The question I would ask you,
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and I want you to answer it almost for me
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as well as your friend. Explain to me, please, where
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does that leave you in the Democratic Party? Where would
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that leave somebody like myself? Because I walked away from
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the Democratic Party, I now identify as an independent. I
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will never ever be a part of a group that
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takes individuals, you know, like a gram Platner who is
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an anti Semite, and actually elevates him to a status
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of import you know, as the son of a Holocaust survivor.
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I cannot, I cannot ascribe to a group of people
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that think that the answer is a guy with a
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Nazi symbol on his chest. So where does that leave us, Jesse, Well.
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It certainly leaves us with a historic reflection and a
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determination to do better by both Democrats and Republicans. For me,
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particularly me and the concerns that I've raised. There were
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one hundred and fifty seven July fourths from sixteen nineteen
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to eighteen sixty three. They didn't mean anything to African Americans.
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Then there were another eighty eight July fourths from Gettysburg
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all the way to I'm sorry, from that period to Gettysburg,
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and at Gettysburg on July fourth, something's changing, We're towards
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something different. There were one fifty seven July fourths, then
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there were eighty eight July fourths that meant nothing. And
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now each July fourth after Gettysburg has been a fundamentally
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different interpretation. African Americans coming out of Gettysburg show their
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loyalty to Abraham Lincoln. Even Martin Luther King Junior's father
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was a Republican. We were not Southern Dixiecrats and Democrats.
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And yet we find ourselves, even at this hour, in
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a party with Southern Democrats, with some Dixiecrats, with some
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DSA members, with the disabled, with the gays and lesbians,
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with many other groups who are part of a big tent,
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who want their citizenship rights as well as their humanities affirmed.
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I start with that basic premise and I'm not going
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to walk away from it. But I'm not walking also
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towards any labels. I like the idea of being an
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independent Democrat. I think that's fair. I think that's reasonable ground.
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I don't think it's I think it's label free. But
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I reserve the right to define who I am, just
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as I know you do as well.
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Well. Yeah, but we don't get to define ourselves anymore.
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You know, we can try to define ourselves. We can
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have our show as you have your Jesse Jackson show
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I now have when you know, you know, including this podcast,
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unleash a portion of it. So yeah, we can define ourselves,
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but we are being pushed further and further out of
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the Democratic Party. Look, I have always maintained one thing
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that I am and will always be a fiscal conservative,
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and I will always be a social moderate. It's just
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who I am. And the amount of the attacks, and
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I know you get it also, the amount of attacks
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that social media platforms allow against individuals like yourself, for myself,
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simply because why I said something that they don't like
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that it's damaging their sense of who they are or
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their ideology. So therefore I get all the expletives. I
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get all of the traders, the grifters, the pieces of shit.
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You know, I get it all as you have gotten
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in the past as well. We are living right now
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in a time where unless you are on the same
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exact page as these individuals, well then they have the
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right within which to cast you out. And that's okay
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for me. I don't mind being cast out by these people.
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Well, I mean to hold that middle, to hold those
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values matter, right, I mean, this too shall pass, This
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period shall pass. I call it America's moral parenthesis, where
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right in the middle of a sentence you see a
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parenthesis that says, okay, the bracket is open. Here is
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the defining point, and then we see a closed parenthesis,
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which defines the sentence itself. America's sentence is still without
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definition because the parenthesis has been left open. That's a
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nice way of saying there are periods in American history
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where the things that we've written on people, the values
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that we say we hold, are suspended. And we are
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definitely in that period where the definitions themselves are being
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challenged and being restructured. But some of us have a
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pla online for our moral values and what we believe
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to be true, with the appreciation that this too shall
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pass and that the period shall pass. And what I
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would be very careful of is trying to define myself
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in this era, because when this period passes, you will
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be then redefining yourself in an era that makes even
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more sense than the present era that's taking place, and
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you'll never be able to shake that label. So I
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len Eileen personally in this period on what it means
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to be human. I mean to reach out to people
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of different walks of life, to be human, to be
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decent is something that we lack in today's order. And
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I can't begin to tell you enough just how sensitive
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it is. First we must, in my opinion, which doctor
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Samuel DeWitt Proctor argued, the late preacher of Abyssinian Church
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in New York. He made the case, first we must
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agree that equality is possible. Secondly, we must identify the
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optimum human condition, and then call everyone to embrace equality
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is possible. You're not different than me, I'm not different
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than you. Let us identify that and agree with that.
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Then let us call everyone to embrace it. When Michael
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Callen steps over the line, I'm gonna call you as
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my brother, to a higher standard. If I step over
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the line, I expect you to call me to a
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higher standard. And then, in that spirit of love, we
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actually called each other to embrace it. We're making each
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other better, not worse.
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So on that notion. The amount of hatred Jesse that
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I got, and all along you and I have spoken
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many times on your show, we've spoken off this show.
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We just pick up a phone and call each other
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as I used to from time to time with your father,
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God Rest his soul, wonderful, wonderful man. The amount of
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hate that I got simply because I rekindled a friendship
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a fifteen year friendship that had gone awry over a
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period of eight years. Literally maybe a fight for the
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political books that I'm not really sure I can think of,
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at least in modern history, one that was more vitriolic
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between two people by two friends. The fact that we
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have been successful in putting that part of our lives
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behind us doesn't mean that Trump is changing his positions.
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It doesn't mean Michael Cohen is changing his position. It
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just means that we've valued our friendship for fifteen years,
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which I give him a lot of credit for, and
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we're both able to put aside the differences that we had,
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even the differences in ideology that we still have, and
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still to embrace each other's friends. Can you tell me
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what's wrong with that? Why should I be the subject
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of so much anger and hatred?
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Absolutely nothing wrong with that, And the fact that you're
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a subject of that is deeply challenging to the sense
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of America's values and who they claim to be. My
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father in nineteen eighty four at the Democratic Convention in
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San Francisco used a particular line that I find compelling
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at this moment, and that is this He talked about
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going to visit Hubert Humphrey on his deathbed in Minnesota,
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and Dad asked Hubert Humphrey. He said, Senator, all of
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the big fights are behind you, the political speeches, the
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political battles, the disposition and attitude that had you dug
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in deep on position that you believed in. What is
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the sum of it all? What are your takeaways? What
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did you get from it? Humphrey turned to my father
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and he said, Jesse, in the final analysis, laying here
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in this bed and the final moments of my life,
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closing in on the last breath that I will ever take,
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We're going to have to find a way to forgive
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each other, redeem each other, and move on. In the
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final analysis, That's what it all boils down to. So
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if we want to preserve our union, if we want
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to serve and preserve our country, there are going to
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be these outreach efforts and these moments of reconciliation between
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Michael Cohen and Donald Trump. My father wrote several letters
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to Donald Trump, some of which have become public, some
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of which have not become public, because he really wanted
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to engage the President and encourage him as an outside
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force to consider other possibilities in his thinking. Unfortunately, my father,
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who knew Donald Trump had a friendship with Donald Trump
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when Donald Trump was a Democrat, did not have the
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courtesy or the wherewithal, or the possibility if the letters
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even made it to him to call Reverend Jackson back
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his friend. The outreach continued in spite of the fact
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that he never heard back from the President of the
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United States. So to my point that the outreach can
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never stop the vitriol, it is what it is. But
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the outreach by a minority of people two, even those
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that we disagree with, are factor in our ability to
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move the country forward and reach a level of reasonableness.
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Yeah. But the problem though, is that for example, this
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DSA group, it's very much different than for example, the
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Tea Party. Tea Party had its fringe people onto the side,
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it never really moved anywhere, and ultimately, like all stupid things,
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it fell apart and it just sort of disappeared. DSA
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doesn't seem to be going that way, despite the fact
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that much of what they're preaching is absolutely impossible to implement.
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For example, Mayor Mamdani here in New York, he sold
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New Yorker, specifically the younger generation, a bill of bullshit.
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It's a bill of bullshit that he can never possibly effectuate,
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for example, free groceries or discounted growth, free transportation in
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the system that by the way, you know, it's not
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just New York City the transportation, it's MTA, which is
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a joint venture with New Jersey. I mean, the things
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that he's promising young people who, for whatever the reason
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may be fell for it. Groceries. Let me ask you
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this question, right, because one of the things that they
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keep talking about is ID registration ID for voting. Now,
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whether you agree with it or disagree with it is
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sort of irrelevant for the point I'm trying to make.
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Under Mamdani's policy, you will have to have an ID
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in order to be a part of this government funded
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this New York City funded grocery. So for you to
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get thirty or forty percent off your tomatoes, you have
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to have an ID. But to vote, that's a ligne
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too far. Come on, I mean, that's just stupidity in governance.
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Before I defend mom, Donnie, let me just make this point.
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There was a point in time when the idea of
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loving one's enemy was bullshit. Countries that have been warring
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tribal factions is bullshit. I mean, we shouldn't even pursue
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the ideal establishing the optimum human condition is bullshit. That
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people should have something to eat and be able to
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afford tomatoes. Oh that's bullshit, man. You know, this is
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a capitalist system. If tomatoes can be sold for four
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hundred dollars a tomato or fifty dollars a tomato, it's okay,
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I mean, this is our system. But say, wait a minute,
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is there a process by which people can actually eat
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the optimum human condition? Because at the end of the day,
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Michael Cohen and Jesse Jackson Junior are going to have
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an empty stomach and they're going to want to eat something,
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some form of nourishment. So first, let us agree that
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equality is possible, whatever it's called. Whatever the bill of
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goods that are sold to the American people by the
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far left or the far right. The tariffs haven't proven
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effective for farmers and for working class whites within in
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Donald Trump's base either, So Democrats and Republicans have been
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selling the majority of American people a bill of goods,
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and the bill of sale is too high for us
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to be able to pay for it, and so the
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American people are responding. Now, if it's called the Michael
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Cohen Coalition and the title is no longer DSA, but
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that's what you believe. I think we're in a great space.
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If it's called the Jesse Jackson Coalition, because that's how
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I define it, not as DSA or MEGA, we're in
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a great space, then it's no good.
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Now. I'm teasing with you, of course, I get your point.
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It's just you can't sell people a bill of goods
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that ultimately will fail down the road. You cannot turn
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around and ask somebody to provide an ID because their
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beliefs is Michael.
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What Donald Trump has shown us, What Donald Trump has
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shown us, is that you can sell people anything. They
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have to be able to discern. They have to be
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able to discern what makes sense and what does not
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make sense, and what is plausible and what is possible.
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And so when a person casts that vote, they step
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into the voting booth with full knowledge of their independence
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and their freedom to make a judgment based upon what
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they've heard, based upon what they've seen, based upon what
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they believe will happen, and then hold the officials accountable.
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I mean, that's our system Michael, you can get up
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and sell people a gold statue in this country and
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actually believe that it's made of gold, or even a
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gold watch for that matter, or what gold cell phones,
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and they're not gold at all, but people buy them.
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You can sell them.
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Care to think that have nobil answer?
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They'll buy it.
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But you answered the point I was bringing up at
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the very beginning of this conversation, which is that this
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Dassay movement is destroying the Democratic Party. In fact, it's
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very funny because I've listened to other podcasters, people who
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I used to call friends that really don't talk to
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me anymore, but they turn around and they're saying the
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same thing that dsay is turning off moderate Democrats, that
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you're now seeing more and more Democrats end up moving
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to the Independent Party, Or at.
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Least I would have been. I would have been that
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you're not wrong about that, Michael, But let me.
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Just say you know where that creates.
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Alexandrio Cassio Cortez came to the Congress of the United States.
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She was bright eyed, bushy tailed, talking a lot of
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health care, education, housing. She went through a very populist
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kind of thesis on the question of what's going on
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from a bartender all the way to Washington's lack of understanding.
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Now now she's more moderate in your thinking, she has
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potentially senatorial and presidential ambitions. Someone has gotten to AOC
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and said, listen, you came here a DSA, but if
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you're going to run this party, you're going to change,
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You're going to mature, You're going to understand that there
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are various factions within this party. And this is true
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a Republican party as well. When some of the Magaites
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came to Congress on the far right, when they had
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to govern, it was a very different story. And so yes,
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there are some things that are being said on the
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far left of the Democratic Party that are not palatable.
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But you can't make what they say what I said,
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I didn't say it.
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They said why people like you and me are stepping
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away kind of from the Democratic Party. In more to
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the independent.
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The DSA has a responsibility to better labeling. They have
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a responsibility to better labeling. They have a responsibility and
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for some of them who've never been in this process,
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there is a long road to toe.
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Yeah, and that's why you're starting to see now fifty
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seven percent I believe was the last number. Fifty seven
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percent of Americans now identify as independent. You know, Jesse,
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months and months ago, you and I had a private conversation.
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We're talking about the midterms and what we thought we
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were going to see in the midterms. I'm not so
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sure at this point in time that the Democrats, who
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had in their minds at least a lock up a
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blue tsunami. I'm not so sure you're going to see
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a blue tsunami, or even a blue tidal wave, or
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even a blue puddle at this point in time for
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the midterm elections. I believe that DSA and I'm not
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as fan of Alexandria Cassio Cortes and her anti Semitic ideology,
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the same that holds true for the Bernie Sanders and
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I don't ascribe to them. I don't like what they're doing,
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and I don't like what they're saying. I don't like
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the Mamdanis of the world. I don't like the Hafan
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Pikers of the world. I just don't. I think they
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take us back to a time that we don't want
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to return to. But then again, that's just my opinion.
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Let me share with you this because, as you know,
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I recently ran for Congress and I was unsuccessful. And
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what I found to be the case in my race,
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and it's increasingly the case in other races around the country,
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is it's been the DSA candidate who argues for affordability
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and the economic concerns of people within congressional districts and
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within states and the American Israeli Political Action Committee that
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is a real factor on the ground, and people are
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voting down the well financed APEC candidates over and against
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what you might want to consider the fringe left. Actually,
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the fringe left don't sell themselves per se as DSA.
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They don't walk around with it on their on a
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blue hat, you know, they don't walk around with it.
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Well, they do, That's the whole thing.
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They're winning races. They're winning races, not on being a DSA.
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They're winning races from senatorial races to congressional primaries. They're
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winning it on their economic message. Call it the Michael Cohen.
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They're winning association, call it the high Israel. They're winning
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it on free this, free that. You know what, Jesse Hindsight,
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I don't think they're anti Israel. I think we believe
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in Israeli security. I'm not anti Israel, but I do
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not belie believe that what Benjamin not in Yahoo is
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doing in the Gaza strip is legal and that it
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can sustain itself. I don't believe that. So there is
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a problem on the ground that APEC needs to fix,
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that not in Yahoo needs to fix, and everyone needs
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to return to the table of peace and brotherhood and
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try the very best to identify recognizable borders of what
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constitutes the state of Israel and then bring both parties together.
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And the United States historically has played a role in that, Michael.
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They are no longer playing that role. They certainly played
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it under Joe Biden, They've played it under Barack Obama.
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They've not been playing it well.
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Under all I know is I two want to see
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peace in the Middle East. I too, have always believed
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that a two state solution is necessary. I also believe
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Israel has a right to defend itself and its borders,
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just as America has its right.
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So what's happening in these campaigns? So what's happened? I
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would say, so, Michael, what's happening in these campaigns? Is
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this this conversation that we're having as a exactly what's
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taking place in democratic primaries. There are candidates in the race,
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and there's money in the race defining this race and
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the Gaza Strip. On the other hand, the DSA candidates,
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the far left of the party are identifying the economic issues.
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People are not voting for a war and endless war
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in the Middle East. They're voting kitchen table issues. Call
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them DSA, call them whatever you want. They're winning and
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guess who's losing. People who are trying to turn the
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American people's attention away from their tables, away from what
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it costs to educate their children, away from five dollars
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for a gallon of gas. Hey, don't be concerned about that.
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Be concerned about what's happening over here in the Gaza Strip.
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Ain't Halman partner?
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And I I'm not so sure I agree with that one,
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my friend. First of all, I believe that had you won,
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had you run your race, your your congressional race, promising
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free shit to everybody, you would have won by a landslide.
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Because that's what they're doing. They're promising things they cannot
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deliver on. You know it, I know it. And as
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far as whether.
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What I represented that district. I represented that district for
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eight elections, for seventeen years in the Congress of the
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United States. I raised three hundred thousand dollars. I was
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leading in every poll until the last two months of
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the campaign when the Air American Israelly political Action Committee
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against the three hundred thousand dollars that I raised, spent
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more than eight million dollars to ensure in two months
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against my campaign. It's that kind of money and heavy
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handedness in these campaigns that the American people are now
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reacting to. They don't want to talk about that. They
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want to talk about bread and butter issues. On bread
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and butter issues, I won the campaign.
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Yeah, mind you, if you really want to talk about issues,
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I'm not worried about five dollars a gallon of Gussie.
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I don't want to pay it. Don't get me wrong,
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I don't want to pay four dollars. I don't even
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want to pay three was a gallon of gifts. You
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know what else I don't want. I don't want a
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nuclear Iran. Every single president for the last forty seven years,
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going on forty eight now, every single president said the
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same thing. Iran must never possess a nuclear weapon. Why
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Because one thing that we do enjoy, Jesse, that is
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not it's inarguable one thing that we absolutely enjoy is
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that when we put our head down at night, that
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we're not going to experience another nine to eleven event
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that we're never going to see from Iran. At least,
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we're never going to see a nuclear device pointed somewhere
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at the United States and sent our way.
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Because that's a great a bunch of that's a great line.
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That's a great line that you've got in the last
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four or five months from Donald Trump, and that line
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is we don't want a nuclear Iran. It took them
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00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:51.759
a minute to kind of get it's not me, it's
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every President Trump and accept. That has been the Trump
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and Accept argument since the first bombing of the bunkers
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in Iran. Remember the twenty four hour flight that they
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took with the seven B two stealth bombers and how
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amazingly accurate they were, and the obliteration of nuclear weapons
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and they'll never have a nuclear Iran and all of
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that stuff long before the full scale war by the
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United States with Iran that has now cost more than
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three hundred billion dollars, and at the end of the day,
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it has not reduced the cost of gasoline. Michael, You'd
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have to keep making that argument about a nuclear Iran
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without the capacity to deliver a bomb some four thousand,
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six thousand miles away is not working, Michael. They're losing
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that argument. No one wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
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We all agree on that, but that is not what's
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taking place in these campaigns.
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Well, at least that's my belief. It's belief of every
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president for forty seven years that who has that theocracy
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that you and me, Trump.
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Has done more. I'll give you credit for this. Trump
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has done more.
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To ensure you Jewish even whether you're a moderate, must
510
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:10.240
will give you you.
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I will give you credit. I'll give the president. I'll
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give president credit where it is due. He has definitely
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set the nuclear program and nuclear ambitions of Iran back
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one hundred years. Now that we've said it back that far,
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can we get on to something.
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Else, Yes, yes we can, Jesse. I so appreciate you,
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my brother Grace. You please let me know the next
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time that you're back in New York, going have to
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do another dinner. Thank you for joining me. On when
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you know, you know Unleashed
