Episode 14: On Conversational Style with Deborah Tannen

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Conversational style where you can talk along,
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you don't jump in anywhere.
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It may sound to the person who doesn't share that style that you're jumping in anywhere.
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We're not.
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There's a whole array of cues that you're picking up.
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We all want to be heard and understood for what we mean by what we say.
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But the style in which we converse flavors all of our interactions,
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how we participate,
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how we perceive others and how others perceive us.
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Join us for a conversation with Deborah Tannen,
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distinguished University professor and Professor of Linguistics at Georgetown University and author of many books and articles about how the language of everyday conversation affects relationships.
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We dig into sociolinguistics,
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how our skills at interacting,
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depend on our conversational style,
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rituals and habits and how,
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what we mean is often missed or misinterpreted when people with different styles interact.
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When I originally conceived of this podcast series an interruption.
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This was the interview at the top of my wish list.
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Please check out the show notes at www We interrupt this.com for links to all of the resources mentioned now on to the conversation,
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Deborah.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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Today,
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I am honored to be talking with you.
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I read your books when I was going through trying to understand how to communicate better myself in my career.
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And as I was putting together this podcast,
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I said,
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oh,
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my dream person to interview is Deborah Tan.
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And this would be awesome.
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So,
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thank you so much for taking the time today.
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I wanted just to start this off for people,
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those three people in the world who don't know who you are.
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If you could tell us a little bit about yourself,
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most people will think of me first as the author of you just don't understand.
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And that's a book that I wrote about how women and men tend to communicate because nothing is true of all women or all men.
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But that's because that book was kind of a phenomenon.
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It was on the New York Times best seller list,
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nearly four years.
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And people will usually say I read your first book,
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but it wasn't my first book.
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It was my 10th book.
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I'm,
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I'm a professor at Georgetown technical title is Distinguished University Professor.
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I've,
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I've been there pretty much my entire career.
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I got my phd in linguistics at Berkeley and came directly to Georgetown a very long time ago,
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1979.
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So my field is linguistics.
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What I do in that field is not typical for linguistics,
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but there are some of us that do it.
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And I was very fortunate in going to Berkeley where Robin Lakoff,
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John Gers Wallace J,
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three professors were trained as linguists but using their expertise to study how people talk.
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And because we're linguists,
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we look specifically and especially at the words,
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that's what I decided to focus on my dissertation.
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And my first book was not about gender.
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I was not a gender specialist.
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My specialty was what I call conversational style.
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All the decisions that we have to make when we talk,
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I'm often asked,
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wouldn't this be a better world if everybody just said what they meant?
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And my answer is we do,
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but we say it,
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we say it in our own conversational style.
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If you talk to someone whose style is similar,
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you can pretty much assume both of you the other must mean what I would mean or feel if I talk in that way,
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when styles differ,
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then you run into trouble,
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you are gonna think they mean and they're gonna think you mean what they would be if they spoke in that way in that time?
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And it may not be true by conversational style.
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It's everything about how you say what you mean,
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starting with timing.
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How quickly or slowly do you speak?
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How long a pause is normal between your turn and someone else's turn?
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What are the cues by which you judge?
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It's your turn or it's their turn?
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What can you tell stories about?
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How would you get to the point of the story.
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How loudly or slowly do you speak?
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How relatively direct or indirect are you?
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So,
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you've been doing conversational analy linguistics for your entire career?
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I'm interested to learn what set you down that path.
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What was it about linguistics that was attractive to you?
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I began my graduate study in linguistics at the age of 29.
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My major in,
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in college was English literature.
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I had a master's in English literature.
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Immediately after college,
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it worked a little while,
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save some money.
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You went off to Europe on a one way ticket and ended up in Greece and I stayed there for a while,
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taught English.
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So that was my first exposure to linguistics because a lot of people who taught English as a second language had that background in linguistics,
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but that was not my interest at all.
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I then got a master's in English and was a teacher of remedial writing and freshman composition.
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So this takes,
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and I,
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I was teaching at Lehman College in,
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in the Bronx.
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Some people may have picked up with my uh slight accent here.
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I grew up in Brooklyn.
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And so when I did a dissertation on New York and California,
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it was because I,
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as a New Yorker frequently found myself misunderstood like Californians and I had picked a conversation and I didn't,
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when I recorded the conversation,
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I didn't know that would be the one I would use.
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But when I ended up studying was myself,
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my best friend,
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his brother,
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all from New York and then a friend of his from California,
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his friend from California and someone from England.
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So I've got my,
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you know,
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master's in English teaching on board.
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And I'm thinking,
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what do I want to do next?
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I figured I could become an authority on teaching,
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writing and move up in that world.
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I could become a lawyer.
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My father was a lawyer and that was something I thought about.
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But maybe I wanted a phd and I thought of English literature,
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which would be obvious.
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But I started out by going to a linguistic institute.
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Uh This is something linguistic society of America runs at different universities every summer.
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So I had heard the word linguistics found it interesting,
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didn't really know what it was.
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I went to a linguistic institute and I was just lucky that summer,
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all the linguists who studied everyday conversation with their,
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it was a moment,
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you know,
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your life is so uh stochastic,
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it just things happen.
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It just happened that the field of linguistics was turning its attention right around then to everyday language and not just linguistics,
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it was happening in sociology and philosophy in,
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in many fields.
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It was a zeitgeist.
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And so it just piqued my imagination.
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It combined my love of language because I had been this literary type from the beginning.
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You know,
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I was the one who was editor of the literary magazine and wrote stories and poems to my love of language.
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But it was focusing it on human relationships.
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What are people doing with language?
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How is that affecting what goes on in the conversation?
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But ultimately,
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what goes on in their lives?
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So you started in conversational analysis is back in the seventies.
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And in reading your book,
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conversational analysis,
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you bring this tape recorder with you to your Thanksgiving dinner conversation and in reading through the methods,
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part of the book you talk about.
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Well,
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we ran out of tape and I've just,
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I had to smile because there's so much that's changed now,
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even just in thinking about taping,
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like here we are on Zoom,
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right?
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Taping this conversation and we could go on and on and on and on and tape all day if we really wanted to.
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So those limitations that you had in recording the conversation don't exist in the same way now.
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So I'm,
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I'm curious,
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could you dig into a little bit more of the technical aspects of conversational analysis?
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There's notation that you use in your book.
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And I'm also really interested given the duration of your career,
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if you could talk about how technology or methodology has changed and how that has affected how we do conversation analysis.
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Today,
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I have to start by clarifying something that will be extremely important to people in my field and probably won't make any difference to the lay person.
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The kind of linguistics I do is not actually called conversation analysis.
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That is a different discipline that's done by people trained in the field of sociology.
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And it's a particular kind of analysis of conversation.
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What I do is called interactional sociolinguistics.
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So I um yeah,
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I'm on the faculty at Georgetown.
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I'm in a concentration called sociolinguistics.
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Interactional sociolinguistics actually grew out of the field of anthropology.
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So John Gers,
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who was my professor,
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although his,
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his degree is linguistics,
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he was in anthropology department.
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Again,
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not gonna make much difference to anybody outside,
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but I have to be very clear for anyone listening who happens to know the field.
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So my book,
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that first book about the uh Thanksgiving Dinner Conversation was called conversational style.
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And that's,
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that's the moniker for the kind of stuff I do and what I'm interested in,
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in some ways nothing has changed or basic method is recording conversation,
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transcribing it and taking it apart.
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Looking at what the specific things were in terms of language and the effects that it had a big difference.
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However,
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is that now video recording is very simple back then,
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there was not a lot of video recording,
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but if one did,
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it was a big deal,
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you came in with boom mics and uh that you,
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you know,
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held it over people's head and you know,
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you were there.
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But so was your crew.
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So the field that I was specifically and we preferred audio because we recorded conversations or interaction that happened naturally.
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That's another key phrase naturally occurring.
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Now,
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that's very um controversial in the field of,
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well,
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any,
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any field of study,
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one could argue if you are part of the conversation,
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how can you be objective and study it?
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And that is an issue.
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What we would say is nobody can be objective.
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In fact,
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it may be better to acknowledge.
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You can't be objective and have disciplined subjectivity if you come in as a stranger and set it up and tell people to talk to each other.
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Ok.
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Great.
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You'll be objective but they're not gonna be natural.
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So if you want naturally occurring conversation and you wanna record it,
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if you would have been there anyway,
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you have an ongoing relationship and an ongoing reason to be there.
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The chance is you're going to get a natural conversation,
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go way up.
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Now,
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aren't people aware of being recorded,
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doesn't that change it?
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And we do talk about that.
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We call the observers paradox.
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You want to observe what goes on when you're not there,
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but when you're there and you're observing it changes what goes on the Schrodinger's cat,
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right.
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Yeah,
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that is,
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that is,
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again,
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it is an issue.
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We have to take it into account.
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But there is pretty much evidence that if it's a group of people that would be there anyway,
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that know each other that interact naturally interact frequently,
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they tend to forget about the recorder.
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And now especially you don't even have to see the recording equipment.
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It is a very big deal to us all to say you don't record people without their permission.
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You don't do it secretly.
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But it certainly is easy to do secretly,
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which it was not.
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Then I had a small,
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at the point at that time,
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it was an extremely small thought to be extremely small little tape recorder.
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I guess it was about six inches,
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six or eight inches long and maybe four inches wide.
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And I put it on the table and some of the discussion was about the recorder on the table.
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In fact,
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my,
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my colleague,
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Cynthia Gordon does a similar kind of work and she's written a paper about discussions about the recording equipment.
257
00:13:38,049 --> 00:13:40,530
That's part of the conversation that we record.
258
00:13:41,369 --> 00:13:46,520
One thing that has changed enormously is transcription.
259
00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:48,059
That's exactly what it's just gonna add.
260
00:13:48,070 --> 00:13:50,760
I need a 2.5 hour conversation.
261
00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:54,460
The 1st 2.5 months was just transcribing.
262
00:13:54,890 --> 00:13:56,960
It took me 2.5 months,
263
00:13:56,969 --> 00:13:57,960
full time.
264
00:13:57,969 --> 00:14:02,880
That's all I did from morning till night to transcribe because I wanted to get everything.
265
00:14:03,289 --> 00:14:04,880
So I would play it over and over.
266
00:14:04,890 --> 00:14:12,840
I was timing pauses with a stopwatch because length of pause was significant in my analysis.
267
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:13,710
Well,
268
00:14:13,719 --> 00:14:18,190
we now have various programs that will automatically transcribe.
269
00:14:18,239 --> 00:14:18,460
Now,
270
00:14:18,469 --> 00:14:27,450
you probably wanna go back and make sure it's accurate and put in additions that maybe it didn't pick up interested in intonation patterns,
271
00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:28,380
for example,
272
00:14:28,619 --> 00:14:29,210
but the,
273
00:14:29,359 --> 00:14:33,409
the length of pauses can be automatically measured,
274
00:14:33,419 --> 00:14:34,710
don't need to stopwatch.
275
00:14:34,859 --> 00:14:36,340
So that's a huge difference.
276
00:14:37,219 --> 00:14:40,940
So I guess with that and we're going to get into this in a bit.
277
00:14:40,950 --> 00:14:43,039
I is this idea of overlapping.
278
00:14:43,049 --> 00:14:47,549
Does the technology also allow you to catalog the overlaps,
279
00:14:47,559 --> 00:14:52,479
et cetera in the conversation or is that something you need to go back and uh and notate?
280
00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:54,989
That is a great question.
281
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,619
Um I still do it by hand.
282
00:14:56,630 --> 00:14:59,010
So I don't know what it's like for the,
283
00:14:59,020 --> 00:15:00,010
for that equipment,
284
00:15:00,739 --> 00:15:03,700
some conversations will have more overlap.
285
00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:07,320
That is more than one voice going at the same time than others.
286
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:16,919
And it's gonna be my guess is it would be impossible for the automatic transcription program to know what I did was in my transcription.
287
00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:22,640
I would s uh separate into two columns and going on at the same time.
288
00:15:22,650 --> 00:15:24,280
So they were side by side.
289
00:15:24,460 --> 00:15:26,400
But as soon as you're writing it down,
290
00:15:26,409 --> 00:15:27,320
you're interpreting,
291
00:15:27,330 --> 00:15:28,440
this is another aspect of it.
292
00:15:28,450 --> 00:15:29,239
It's very interesting.
293
00:15:30,099 --> 00:15:31,479
As soon as you're transcribing,
294
00:15:31,489 --> 00:15:32,799
you're making decisions.
295
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,440
So if two people talk at once,
296
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:37,559
who kind of has the,
297
00:15:37,570 --> 00:15:38,010
who,
298
00:15:38,020 --> 00:15:40,659
who has the floor and who's responding,
299
00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:43,070
and it tends to,
300
00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:46,570
we tend to interpret by which one we see first.
301
00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:52,020
The transcription is kind of like a play lines of dialogue,
302
00:15:52,789 --> 00:15:55,369
the voice that you put on the first line sounds like.
303
00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:55,549
Well,
304
00:15:55,559 --> 00:16:01,419
that's that person's turn and the second person to speak was either interrupting or overlapping,
305
00:16:01,729 --> 00:16:03,330
but that's an interpretation.
306
00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:03,960
I'm,
307
00:16:03,969 --> 00:16:04,549
I'm in a,
308
00:16:04,559 --> 00:16:07,210
the local theater group and doing sound.
309
00:16:07,219 --> 00:16:13,809
Um And one of the things we talk about is how do you learn the lines in such a way that it feels natural,
310
00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:14,669
both speaking them.
311
00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:20,090
But listening and a big challenge is the spaces between the line and the next line.
312
00:16:20,099 --> 00:16:21,559
And when you're looking at a script,
313
00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:26,190
they don't necessarily indicate when you're supposed to overlap or not overlap.
314
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,150
And that comes in,
315
00:16:27,159 --> 00:16:29,229
I think with the training of the actors,
316
00:16:29,239 --> 00:16:34,419
but also the comfort level and style of the actors themselves and thinking about how you want,
317
00:16:34,429 --> 00:16:37,250
how you want to have this dialogue continue.
318
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:37,590
You know,
319
00:16:37,599 --> 00:16:38,510
you're making me think,
320
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,989
isn't it gonna be totally different if your theater group is Wisconsin,
321
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:43,510
right?
322
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,179
Versus Brooklyn,
323
00:16:45,190 --> 00:16:45,960
right?
324
00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:52,960
And Brooklyn is gonna be especially complicated because a lot of people who live in Brooklyn grew up in Wisconsin.
325
00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:57,849
I think that must be a challenge for them in their daily lives,
326
00:16:57,859 --> 00:16:58,349
right?
327
00:16:58,599 --> 00:16:59,760
As well.
328
00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:00,210
In fact,
329
00:17:00,219 --> 00:17:00,729
I'll just throw,
330
00:17:00,739 --> 00:17:03,729
I have anecdotes to illustrate just about everything.
331
00:17:03,739 --> 00:17:05,189
But as an example,
332
00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:24,328
um somebody I once talked to I think was from Texas and in Texas was considered actually quite talkative and then got to New York City where they had a very hard time getting the floor and people were making interpretations about their personality.
333
00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:27,439
You're gonna have to be more self assertive,
334
00:17:27,699 --> 00:17:31,520
you need to be more confident and it was really just this,
335
00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:39,439
this little matter of finding the right moment because you're waiting for a longer pause than then is going to,
336
00:17:39,449 --> 00:17:42,040
it's going to be evident in that group of people.
337
00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:46,589
Yeah.
338
00:17:46,599 --> 00:17:48,719
So one of the things you say in,
339
00:17:48,729 --> 00:17:49,800
uh you just don't understand.
340
00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:49,979
So I,
341
00:17:49,989 --> 00:17:51,119
I read this whole book,
342
00:17:51,130 --> 00:17:52,079
I love the book.
343
00:17:52,089 --> 00:17:55,479
I reread it and one of the quotes was if you will indulge me,
344
00:17:55,489 --> 00:17:57,660
we all want above all to be heard.
345
00:17:57,670 --> 00:17:59,000
So I think this pertains to the,
346
00:17:59,010 --> 00:17:59,930
the person from Texas.
347
00:17:59,939 --> 00:18:00,800
We want to be heard,
348
00:18:00,810 --> 00:18:02,280
but not merely to be heard,
349
00:18:02,290 --> 00:18:07,619
we want to be understood and not just heard what we think we are saying,
350
00:18:07,630 --> 00:18:09,979
but for what we know we meant.
351
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:12,969
When you talk about conversational style,
352
00:18:12,979 --> 00:18:17,660
you've talked about the different latencies of speech like a Wisconsin person.
353
00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:19,040
I think we talk fast,
354
00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:19,250
right?
355
00:18:19,260 --> 00:18:28,339
And I always tells me I talk too fast and we talk fast because it's cold here and you gotta get the words out before your mouth freezes in the winter time.
356
00:18:28,349 --> 00:18:31,550
So we're fast but we're not as fast as somebody from Brooklyn.
357
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,650
And we're certainly faster than somebody,
358
00:18:33,660 --> 00:18:35,329
most people from Texas.
359
00:18:35,339 --> 00:18:37,170
So when we talk about conversational,
360
00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:51,410
so can you talk a bit about that difference for what we think we're saying and what we know we meant and what the other person is there listening to us I wanna first point out speed is not one thing.
361
00:18:51,790 --> 00:18:55,439
So there's how quickly you talk within the sentence.
362
00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:56,859
How fast are the sentence?
363
00:18:56,869 --> 00:18:58,380
How fast are the words on together?
364
00:18:58,770 --> 00:19:00,349
And then there's inter turn,
365
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:00,900
pause.
366
00:19:00,910 --> 00:19:05,119
How long do you wait before you figure the other person's done?
367
00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:05,459
Well,
368
00:19:05,469 --> 00:19:06,660
how long do you feel?
369
00:19:06,670 --> 00:19:12,760
You should wait before you think you've given everybody else a chance to talk and they're not talking.
370
00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:13,829
So I'll just keep going.
371
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:21,239
It really comes down to a concept of what conversation is.
372
00:19:22,239 --> 00:19:25,099
So much of what we're doing is just automatic.
373
00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:29,400
So it isn't only a matter of what do I mean,
374
00:19:29,410 --> 00:19:31,510
when I'm saying what I'm saying now,
375
00:19:31,839 --> 00:19:33,880
but what am I working up toward?
376
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,140
And what am I building on?
377
00:19:39,189 --> 00:19:43,329
So I'll give a couple of examples of gender related differences though,
378
00:19:43,339 --> 00:19:45,650
the same things could occur and it's not gender.
379
00:19:45,849 --> 00:19:47,859
This is from my book talking from 9 to 5,
380
00:19:47,869 --> 00:19:49,520
which is about workplace.
381
00:19:49,859 --> 00:19:57,969
So manager felt that she had told a subordinate to rewrite a report and he gives her the revision,
382
00:19:57,979 --> 00:20:00,770
but he hadn't made the changes that she asked him to make.
383
00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:02,540
So they have a conversation and he said,
384
00:20:02,550 --> 00:20:11,699
but you told me it was fine the way it was and they traced it to the fact that she had begun by telling him everything good about it.
385
00:20:11,709 --> 00:20:12,489
Ah,
386
00:20:13,369 --> 00:20:18,020
and he took what came in the beginning as the main point.
387
00:20:18,869 --> 00:20:20,229
So when she then said,
388
00:20:20,239 --> 00:20:22,050
what she wanted changed.
389
00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:27,770
He heard as an afterthought and there are many cultural differences that way too.
390
00:20:27,969 --> 00:20:31,849
Um There are some cultures and I maybe dialects of India,
391
00:20:31,859 --> 00:20:36,780
but I may be wrong about that where you get louder just before your main point,
392
00:20:36,869 --> 00:20:42,250
it's kind of setting the stage and then you say the main point a little more quietly where English speakers,
393
00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:44,689
for the most part in English is all over the world.
394
00:20:44,699 --> 00:20:45,280
And in fact,
395
00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:48,010
the speakers in India are probably native English speakers too,
396
00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:53,069
but many Americans would get louder at the main point.
397
00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:55,189
So you're hearing the words,
398
00:20:55,199 --> 00:20:57,150
you're interpreting the words accurately,
399
00:20:57,530 --> 00:21:03,829
but you're not understanding the flow of thought and how we're setting that up.
400
00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:13,319
So that was the case in the example that I gave that you're gonna make a decision by starting vague and working your way in or starting specific and assuming anyone doesn't like it,
401
00:21:13,329 --> 00:21:15,739
they'll object and then you work your way out,
402
00:21:16,089 --> 00:21:16,420
right?
403
00:21:16,430 --> 00:21:20,589
So it's much more than just what did my words mean?
404
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:25,239
I sometimes use the metaphor of a seesaw.
405
00:21:26,380 --> 00:21:29,160
So this is an example again from the book,
406
00:21:29,170 --> 00:21:30,250
talking from 9 to 5,
407
00:21:30,260 --> 00:21:30,780
the workplace.
408
00:21:30,790 --> 00:21:36,349
But also I had a training video made based on the book about the workplace.
409
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,920
And this was something they captured on videotape.
410
00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:45,189
So this was a recording in Apr firm in Minneapolis and a woman is,
411
00:21:45,199 --> 00:21:47,060
is talking to the art director.
412
00:21:47,199 --> 00:21:48,719
She's the manager of the pr firm.
413
00:21:48,729 --> 00:21:49,469
And she says,
414
00:21:49,479 --> 00:21:51,209
do you think you get that done today?
415
00:21:51,219 --> 00:21:52,569
So we could send that out to them?
416
00:21:52,949 --> 00:21:54,319
And he says no.
417
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,040
And the reason it's so funny,
418
00:22:01,050 --> 00:22:02,439
not just that he said no,
419
00:22:02,739 --> 00:22:03,760
but the balance,
420
00:22:03,770 --> 00:22:04,910
the number of words,
421
00:22:05,530 --> 00:22:06,819
if she's gonna say,
422
00:22:06,979 --> 00:22:08,540
do you think you can get that done today?
423
00:22:08,550 --> 00:22:09,060
So you can send that?
424
00:22:09,069 --> 00:22:11,180
He should say I'd like to help you out.
425
00:22:11,189 --> 00:22:15,109
But we're kind of backed up today that would balance right?
426
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:15,959
And that's,
427
00:22:15,969 --> 00:22:19,420
that's where the uh the seesaw metaphor comes in.
428
00:22:19,729 --> 00:22:21,430
So use it on your side,
429
00:22:21,439 --> 00:22:23,430
you trust the other person to do their side.
430
00:22:23,439 --> 00:22:24,260
If they get off,
431
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:25,630
you go plopping to the ground.
432
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,150
But it isn't something you did.
433
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,069
It's because they didn't do their part.
434
00:22:29,550 --> 00:22:32,310
And there's so many examples of that just,
435
00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:39,949
and when you say that it just really struck a bell with me and thinking about some of the conversations I have with people where I'm like,
436
00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:44,329
wait a second where and it's exactly that seesaw.
437
00:22:44,339 --> 00:22:46,109
That's such a wonderful metaphor.
438
00:22:46,489 --> 00:22:48,979
I'm particularly interested these days in apologies.
439
00:22:48,989 --> 00:22:50,510
And there's a wonderful example of that.
440
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:50,979
And again,
441
00:22:50,989 --> 00:22:53,550
it's tends to be often women compared to men,
442
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:59,229
but it doesn't have to be at all uh for some of us to apologize.
443
00:22:59,239 --> 00:23:01,469
Apology is a two part ritual.
444
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:02,930
I apologize for a,
445
00:23:02,939 --> 00:23:06,390
you apologize for b so if you're not apologizing,
446
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,319
the way I can get you to apologize is doing part one.
447
00:23:09,670 --> 00:23:12,030
So I might say sorry,
448
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,849
say again if let's say you're the manager,
449
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:14,670
I was,
450
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,569
I missed you at the meeting.
451
00:23:16,579 --> 00:23:18,030
If I didn't remind you of it,
452
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:18,750
I'm I'm sorry,
453
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,430
but we really would have been important for you to be there expecting the other person to say you did tell me,
454
00:23:24,439 --> 00:23:25,109
but I'm sorry,
455
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:25,270
you know,
456
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,469
something came up if the other person says,
457
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:28,709
yeah,
458
00:23:28,719 --> 00:23:30,500
make sure you remind me next time.
459
00:23:31,199 --> 00:23:34,229
You wonder why did I apologize for something?
460
00:23:34,239 --> 00:23:41,449
I know I was not at fault for uh because so much of what we say is ritual.
461
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:45,630
It's how we are used to getting to the point.
462
00:23:46,439 --> 00:23:51,609
But if the other person has a different system or just decides to blow us off,
463
00:23:52,489 --> 00:23:55,250
you talk a lot about cross cultural communication,
464
00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:56,329
not just men and women,
465
00:23:56,339 --> 00:23:58,310
but you have many examples from Greece,
466
00:23:58,319 --> 00:23:58,949
India,
467
00:23:58,959 --> 00:24:00,670
uh Native Americans is,
468
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:07,189
is the different expectations that we have about what conversation is and,
469
00:24:07,199 --> 00:24:15,510
and what your responsibility as a participant in a conversation is with respect to yourself and the other person in that conversation,
470
00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:17,489
you're making me think of an example.
471
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:18,189
A colleague of mine,
472
00:24:18,199 --> 00:24:19,930
Ron Scotland and his wife,
473
00:24:19,939 --> 00:24:20,839
uh Suzanne Scotland.
474
00:24:20,849 --> 00:24:24,819
They did work among Athabaskans in Alaska.
475
00:24:25,339 --> 00:24:31,150
And one of the things they observed is that among Athabaskans and this is true for at,
476
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,859
at Baskins in the lower 48 as well.
477
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:34,579
Patchy,
478
00:24:34,589 --> 00:24:35,380
for example,
479
00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:36,050
Navajo,
480
00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:43,040
you don't talk to strangers and they were told when you are with people,
481
00:24:43,050 --> 00:24:43,829
you don't really know,
482
00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:44,540
you just,
483
00:24:44,869 --> 00:24:47,969
you just spend some time with them without talking.
484
00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:49,949
And then when you know each other,
485
00:24:49,959 --> 00:24:55,310
you start talking for many of us below 48 you get to know each other by talking,
486
00:24:55,719 --> 00:24:55,939
right?
487
00:24:56,290 --> 00:24:58,300
So it's a total impasse.
488
00:24:58,550 --> 00:25:00,640
I think I'm gonna get to know you by talking.
489
00:25:00,650 --> 00:25:08,609
You think I shouldn't talk until I know you and the stereotypes on both sides can be seen as growing out of that.
490
00:25:09,130 --> 00:25:09,630
So,
491
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,469
among the Athabaskans,
492
00:25:11,569 --> 00:25:13,510
white people are so hypocritical,
493
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,270
they act like your friends when they're not.
494
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:22,680
And then the stereotype of the stony faced Indian who isn't talking to you because in that context,
495
00:25:22,689 --> 00:25:24,040
it's not appropriate yet.
496
00:25:24,329 --> 00:25:24,640
And,
497
00:25:24,650 --> 00:25:27,229
and that's why all of these differences and yeah,
498
00:25:27,239 --> 00:25:31,959
cross cultural differences is one of my uh major focuses of my research.
499
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:38,060
The reason it's significant goes way beyond you didn't understand me.
500
00:25:39,619 --> 00:25:41,359
It's how you evaluate me.
501
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,449
Everything we say is not just to communicate content,
502
00:25:47,459 --> 00:25:59,729
it's to communicate who we are and who we think you are and how we think our relationship is developing or what we think the relationship is.
503
00:26:00,869 --> 00:26:03,479
And that's where it gets its turns out,
504
00:26:04,209 --> 00:26:09,089
that's where it's so I don't think it's an exaggeration to say tragic,
505
00:26:09,099 --> 00:26:09,180
hm,
506
00:26:10,030 --> 00:26:11,770
cultural stereotypes,
507
00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:16,819
the swiftness with which people judge each other negatively.
508
00:26:17,170 --> 00:26:20,209
It's not that nobody ever deserved a negative judgment.
509
00:26:20,650 --> 00:26:26,170
It's just that it isn't always as negative as we think if it's a style of difference.
510
00:26:35,770 --> 00:26:36,020
Yeah.
511
00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:41,949
So what you've mentioned both in this conversation and in your writing is this idea and this comes up in so many other,
512
00:26:41,959 --> 00:26:42,109
you know,
513
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,109
different aspects of linguistics is like when we learn language and as you said,
514
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,910
it becomes a habit,
515
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:49,319
these,
516
00:26:49,329 --> 00:26:51,979
these ways that we communicate with each other.
517
00:26:51,989 --> 00:27:00,359
So there's this habitual way and ritualistic way that we enter into conversation with others.
518
00:27:00,380 --> 00:27:01,599
And at the same time,
519
00:27:01,609 --> 00:27:03,140
if it is a habit,
520
00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:05,949
then how does one change?
521
00:27:05,979 --> 00:27:07,630
If it's more automatic,
522
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:08,719
how does one change?
523
00:27:08,729 --> 00:27:10,619
And on top of that,
524
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:11,359
there are these,
525
00:27:11,910 --> 00:27:13,770
it just said there's stereotypes,
526
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,020
but within a stereotype,
527
00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:19,609
there's also an implied power imbalance or power balance.
528
00:27:19,619 --> 00:27:21,530
So who's supposed to change,
529
00:27:21,540 --> 00:27:26,959
who is supposed to enter a conversation asking questions about the rules of the conversation?
530
00:27:26,969 --> 00:27:27,209
How,
531
00:27:27,219 --> 00:27:36,449
how do we do this in a way that is both respectful but doesn't also yield power when we shouldn't be doing that?
532
00:27:37,810 --> 00:27:39,589
The first question is an important one,
533
00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:44,400
can we change our styles somewhat if we want to,
534
00:27:45,739 --> 00:27:49,599
if there's a slight difference in how long a pause is normal between turns,
535
00:27:50,739 --> 00:27:58,310
the one expecting the shorter pause is gonna start talking before the other one has found that appropriate amount of pause.
536
00:27:59,229 --> 00:28:07,709
You could train yourself to count to seven after you think the other person has nothing to say or count to something.
537
00:28:07,719 --> 00:28:08,650
Give them more time.
538
00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:14,979
You can train yourself to begin speaking more quickly so that you can get the floor.
539
00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:20,890
But it's more complicated than that because talking in a certain way is in our view being a,
540
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:22,520
a certain kind of person.
541
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:29,369
So you may not want to be the kind of person who would start talking while somebody else is talking.
542
00:28:30,099 --> 00:28:30,479
Yes,
543
00:28:30,489 --> 00:28:32,060
we can adapt our styles,
544
00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:37,459
but we can only do it to an extent because our antenna are off.
545
00:28:37,910 --> 00:28:40,489
This is such a finely tuned system.
546
00:28:40,650 --> 00:28:42,290
We've been doing it our whole lives.
547
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:45,930
You don't stop every time you're gonna say something and say,
548
00:28:45,939 --> 00:28:47,540
gee how much pause has there been here?
549
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:53,160
It's automatic and you don't have the same antenna antenna won't be,
550
00:28:53,170 --> 00:28:55,040
won't be sensitive enough.
551
00:28:55,050 --> 00:28:56,760
It's not unusual for,
552
00:28:57,209 --> 00:28:58,380
let's say it's a group of people,
553
00:28:58,390 --> 00:29:12,349
maybe they work together and the ones who are expecting the longer pause are having trouble getting the floor and they see that the people expecting shorter pause or are talking along maybe or grabbing the floor from your point of view.
554
00:29:12,449 --> 00:29:13,969
So you're gonna do the same thing.
555
00:29:14,209 --> 00:29:17,329
But conversational style where you can talk along,
556
00:29:17,339 --> 00:29:18,709
you don't jump in anywhere.
557
00:29:18,959 --> 00:29:26,280
It may sound to the person who doesn't share that style that you're jumping in anywhere but we're not there.
558
00:29:26,290 --> 00:29:26,579
You,
559
00:29:26,589 --> 00:29:26,959
there,
560
00:29:26,969 --> 00:29:32,839
there's a whole array of cues that you're picking up the intonation pattern,
561
00:29:32,849 --> 00:29:36,579
the rhythm where they are in the story?
562
00:29:36,589 --> 00:29:41,760
Are they beginning to repeat themselves or are they beginning to is it just start of something.
563
00:29:42,250 --> 00:29:48,349
And so the person who says I'm gonna do that too won't have those antenna and may be doing it at the wrong time.
564
00:29:48,369 --> 00:29:49,560
So it's complicated.
565
00:29:49,959 --> 00:29:52,099
But something that always amuses me.
566
00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:54,869
Most of the time when people ask me,
567
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,859
can someone change their style?
568
00:29:57,729 --> 00:30:00,739
They're hoping that their spouse will change their style.
569
00:30:02,430 --> 00:30:03,920
They're not thinking,
570
00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:08,390
can I change mind what work is there?
571
00:30:08,479 --> 00:30:08,709
And I'm,
572
00:30:08,719 --> 00:30:10,689
I'm thinking about a lot of the diversity,
573
00:30:10,699 --> 00:30:12,380
equity and inclusion work on,
574
00:30:12,439 --> 00:30:12,750
you know,
575
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,109
how can we can we,
576
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:23,619
how should we balance conversation in a way that is more thoughtfully inclusive,
577
00:30:23,630 --> 00:30:23,719
right?
578
00:30:23,729 --> 00:30:25,010
How do we do that?
579
00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:25,270
I mean,
580
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,930
what are the clues you have from your work that can provide some insights into,
581
00:30:31,099 --> 00:30:34,949
into what we can do as we enter a group to try to,
582
00:30:35,449 --> 00:30:35,829
I don't know,
583
00:30:35,839 --> 00:30:37,109
understand the rules,
584
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:38,420
reflect on the rules.
585
00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:40,979
Something the most important.
586
00:30:40,989 --> 00:30:46,079
First step is to have a sense of what parameters might differ.
587
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,520
What are the kinds of things that may be going on?
588
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:49,520
For example,
589
00:30:49,530 --> 00:30:51,160
one of the parameters would be,
590
00:30:51,170 --> 00:30:52,599
when do you start talking?
591
00:30:52,609 --> 00:30:55,300
You don't talk right away to somebody that you don't know.
592
00:30:55,819 --> 00:30:57,300
So observation,
593
00:30:57,390 --> 00:31:02,400
spend a little time just standing back and seeing how people in that community are doing it.
594
00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:07,619
Another is trying different things and see how it works and,
595
00:31:07,630 --> 00:31:14,400
and meta communicate m eta meta communicate that is talk about the communication.
596
00:31:15,420 --> 00:31:18,189
So you say in words,
597
00:31:18,339 --> 00:31:22,040
I think we have some differences here and if you know about the concept,
598
00:31:22,050 --> 00:31:25,329
conversational style and maybe even have read something about it.
599
00:31:25,339 --> 00:31:27,310
So I have my little book called,
600
00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:28,229
that's not what I meant.
601
00:31:28,239 --> 00:31:30,880
Just lays out a lot of this would be one place to start,
602
00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:32,739
but maybe some short articles.
603
00:31:33,260 --> 00:31:35,280
You have a starting place.
604
00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:37,619
There are these differences.
605
00:31:37,630 --> 00:31:39,680
I'm not sure what your style is.
606
00:31:39,689 --> 00:31:41,900
You probably aren't too sure of mine.
607
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,060
Let's start by assuming good intentions on each other's parts.
608
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:52,459
And if either of us catches the other doing something that rubs us the wrong way,
609
00:31:52,469 --> 00:31:59,410
maybe we can push pause to use a computer metaphor and talk about it.
610
00:31:59,939 --> 00:32:01,910
We just happened to uh Yeah,
611
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,900
I think that that presupposes there's a level of trust and respect with the people in the conversation to get there.
612
00:32:07,910 --> 00:32:09,310
But II,
613
00:32:09,329 --> 00:32:11,229
I love that as the starting point,
614
00:32:11,239 --> 00:32:11,329
the,
615
00:32:11,339 --> 00:32:18,160
the idea of meta communication so that you are almost self analyzing the conversation as it's going on.
616
00:32:18,170 --> 00:32:18,819
And like you say,
617
00:32:18,829 --> 00:32:19,910
pushing pause and saying,
618
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:20,199
hey,
619
00:32:20,209 --> 00:32:22,630
I feel something doesn't feel quite right here.
620
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,430
Let's talk about it before it gets ugly or not.
621
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,770
One of the things you mentioned is this idea of AAA good conversation.
622
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:39,500
I'm using air quotes here or a good conversation.
623
00:32:39,510 --> 00:32:42,030
You can almost set up a metronome in a way,
624
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,439
a good conversation is something that follows a,
625
00:32:44,449 --> 00:32:54,000
a particular kind of rhythm and I can definitely attach to feeling some conversations you're in where there's this wonderful rhythm and,
626
00:32:54,010 --> 00:32:55,140
and as you mentioned,
627
00:32:55,150 --> 00:32:55,329
you know,
628
00:32:55,339 --> 00:33:04,770
people can jump in and it's like there's a certain time when all of a sudden two people jump in because that's when the rhythm of the conversation kind of uh kind of flows into.
629
00:33:04,780 --> 00:33:04,890
Oh,
630
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:06,719
now you have a bunch of people jumping in.
631
00:33:06,729 --> 00:33:07,209
So,
632
00:33:07,250 --> 00:33:10,119
so I really was interested in that.
633
00:33:10,130 --> 00:33:11,359
At the same time,
634
00:33:11,650 --> 00:33:15,510
I was reflecting on a another book I was reading recently by Jeremy Dank,
635
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,189
who's a pianist and he comments about how when you're taking piano lessons,
636
00:33:20,199 --> 00:33:20,839
oh my God,
637
00:33:20,849 --> 00:33:23,270
I spent so much of my life with this stupid metronome.
638
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:24,170
I hate the metronome,
639
00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:25,229
but it's so important.
640
00:33:25,239 --> 00:33:25,959
But he says,
641
00:33:26,030 --> 00:33:26,319
you know,
642
00:33:26,329 --> 00:33:31,290
anyone can set up a computer to play a piece using the metronome.
643
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:33,489
But when you listen to it,
644
00:33:33,829 --> 00:33:44,239
it doesn't sound right that a part of the art of playing instrument is knowing when to lengthen or shorten something in,
645
00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:44,969
in a piece.
646
00:33:44,979 --> 00:33:51,530
And that's you adding your personality and also trying to intuit what the composer was trying to understand.
647
00:33:51,550 --> 00:33:53,849
So I'm wondering if you can comment on that,
648
00:33:53,859 --> 00:34:03,280
the difference there between a good conversation that seems to have this rhythm and this idea that for AAA piece of music to sound good,
649
00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:04,959
it can't follow a metronome.
650
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:09,580
I wanna say first that I read Jeremy Dink's book and I think it's brilliant.
651
00:34:09,590 --> 00:34:10,270
It's wonderful.
652
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:10,699
Isn't it?
653
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,860
I absolutely loved it.
654
00:34:11,870 --> 00:34:17,780
My best friend is a pianist and I never really understood what he was up to until I read that book.
655
00:34:19,428 --> 00:34:20,029
Um,
656
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,600
I also want to make clear that when I say a good conversation,
657
00:34:23,610 --> 00:34:25,760
I don't mean it's a judgment I'm making.
658
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:26,739
I mean,
659
00:34:26,750 --> 00:34:29,459
it's the experience of the people participating.
660
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,699
You feel that you've had a good conversation,
661
00:34:32,709 --> 00:34:38,100
walk away feeling that was a great conversation and the idea of the metronome.
662
00:34:38,110 --> 00:34:40,939
And let me say I got that and not my original idea.
663
00:34:40,949 --> 00:34:42,129
Frederick Erickson,
664
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,110
anthropological edu,
665
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:44,709
education,
666
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:48,800
educational anthropologist is the person who has talked about that,
667
00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:51,429
that you can put a,
668
00:34:51,439 --> 00:34:53,100
a conversation to a metronome.
669
00:34:53,110 --> 00:34:55,540
And he doesn't mean it literally.
670
00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:55,770
Well,
671
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,550
sometimes he does actually mean it literally,
672
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:06,320
I've seen him play a video of a conversation and he's like the conductor because everything happens on the beat.
673
00:35:06,330 --> 00:35:07,489
If people could see us.
674
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:08,020
Now,
675
00:35:08,330 --> 00:35:09,879
when I'm emphasizing a word,
676
00:35:09,889 --> 00:35:12,540
my hand is going down and I'm leaning forward,
677
00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:15,239
we have all these body signals.
678
00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:18,899
And so there is something literal about it,
679
00:35:19,110 --> 00:35:27,000
but it means that the sense of rhythm and the sense of pacing and the sense of um it's like a dance.
680
00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:29,530
It's like joining uh a line of dancers.
681
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:34,600
It doesn't mean every dancer is gonna do everything at exactly the same moment.
682
00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:39,239
But there is such a thing as we know when the emphasis comes,
683
00:35:39,250 --> 00:35:40,459
we know when the beat is,
684
00:35:40,469 --> 00:35:44,760
we know when the bass is gonna hit that note.
685
00:35:45,709 --> 00:35:46,860
So I wouldn't take it.
686
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:55,149
So literally that it would sound like Jeremy Dink thinks I'm telling him that he said that pianist should stick to Metro Metro.
687
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:56,830
It reminds me that there is a,
688
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,929
there's a sense of shared rhythm.
689
00:35:59,939 --> 00:36:04,300
There's a sense that we're in this dance together.
690
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:08,689
We both know what this dance is and,
691
00:36:08,699 --> 00:36:11,419
and when you're in cross cultural conversations,
692
00:36:11,429 --> 00:36:12,290
you can't do that.
693
00:36:12,860 --> 00:36:15,129
You don't know what the beat is.
694
00:36:15,139 --> 00:36:17,340
You don't know where the main point is.
695
00:36:17,350 --> 00:36:21,239
You don't know when the right time to come in is that,
696
00:36:21,250 --> 00:36:22,439
that's what we're talking about.
697
00:36:22,629 --> 00:36:25,320
And that's almost like taking dance lessons or,
698
00:36:25,330 --> 00:36:27,629
or taking music lessons in an ensemble,
699
00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:27,800
right?
700
00:36:27,810 --> 00:36:29,959
And learning how to be with each other in that space.
701
00:36:29,969 --> 00:36:35,120
But it also brings me back to your seesaw metaphor of if there is a rhythm and,
702
00:36:35,129 --> 00:36:37,540
and somebody isn't participating in the rhythm,
703
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:39,320
your seesaw also falls apart.
704
00:36:39,330 --> 00:36:39,760
So,
705
00:36:39,770 --> 00:36:40,040
you know,
706
00:36:40,050 --> 00:36:42,373
somebody jump up but you're not supposed to,
707
00:36:42,843 --> 00:36:50,413
you talk a lot in conversational style about this uh difference in status and symmetrical connection.
708
00:36:50,423 --> 00:36:53,052
So if somebody comes in having this style of,
709
00:36:53,062 --> 00:36:58,542
of being involved or somebody comes in and I this is something I remember talking about with my kid.
710
00:36:58,552 --> 00:36:59,373
This idea that,
711
00:36:59,623 --> 00:36:59,853
you know,
712
00:36:59,863 --> 00:37:00,792
some conversations,
713
00:37:00,802 --> 00:37:09,375
they're just fun because you're talking and sharing information and it's personal and then other conversations are more like um a discussion where there's a point and you,
714
00:37:09,385 --> 00:37:10,986
you get to the point and then it,
715
00:37:10,996 --> 00:37:12,305
it's not really a conversation.
716
00:37:12,315 --> 00:37:13,385
It's more this discussion.
717
00:37:13,395 --> 00:37:16,256
You're getting a point of information across you,
718
00:37:16,266 --> 00:37:18,625
talk a bit about this idea of status,
719
00:37:18,635 --> 00:37:21,666
differing status in a conversation and symmetrical connection.
720
00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:24,105
And I'm wondering if you can expand on that a bit.
721
00:37:24,875 --> 00:37:26,746
I'm very glad that you asked that.
722
00:37:26,756 --> 00:37:37,699
It's one of the most important themes of pretty much all the studies I've done and every one of us in every conversation is balancing these two needs.
723
00:37:37,989 --> 00:37:39,889
We wanna be connected to each other,
724
00:37:39,899 --> 00:37:41,770
but we don't wanna be overwhelmed.
725
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:42,469
We wanna,
726
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:45,399
we're asking how close or distant are we?
727
00:37:45,409 --> 00:37:46,610
And do we wanna be,
728
00:37:46,620 --> 00:37:47,719
we're asking who's up,
729
00:37:47,729 --> 00:37:48,439
who's down?
730
00:37:48,830 --> 00:37:57,560
They're both there all the time for everybody but one person may be focusing on one aspect and the other may be focusing on the other.
731
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:03,760
And I'll give you some quick short examples walking along campus with a female colleague,
732
00:38:04,050 --> 00:38:06,610
an older guy colleague comes by.
733
00:38:06,620 --> 00:38:09,439
It's a crisp fall day in the east.
734
00:38:09,879 --> 00:38:11,590
And she said as a greeting.
735
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:11,939
Hi,
736
00:38:11,949 --> 00:38:12,969
where's your coat?
737
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:13,669
And he said,
738
00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:19,159
thanks mom because she's focusing on the connection.
739
00:38:19,169 --> 00:38:20,459
Just saying something friendly.
740
00:38:20,469 --> 00:38:23,020
He's focusing on the status difference.
741
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:25,379
Mothers ask their kids,
742
00:38:25,389 --> 00:38:26,810
where's your coat?
743
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:27,770
They're both right?
744
00:38:27,929 --> 00:38:28,219
And,
745
00:38:28,229 --> 00:38:31,379
and this is one of the things that comes up over and over.
746
00:38:31,389 --> 00:38:35,179
I think part of the reason we run into trouble is because if we think it only can be one.
747
00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:39,830
And this came up a lot in my book about mothers and daughters,
748
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,169
which is called You're Wearing that.
749
00:38:43,739 --> 00:38:47,959
And one of the themes that was constant throughout my interviews,
750
00:38:47,969 --> 00:38:51,100
I think I interviewed almost 100 women about their mothers and daughters.
751
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:56,300
One of the biggest complaints that I heard from adult daughters about their mothers.
752
00:38:56,310 --> 00:39:03,310
She's critical and one of the biggest complaints that I heard from mothers about grown daughters,
753
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:04,580
I can't open my mouth.
754
00:39:04,590 --> 00:39:06,080
She takes everything's criticism.
755
00:39:07,189 --> 00:39:07,820
Well,
756
00:39:07,889 --> 00:39:10,419
each one is thinking it can only be one.
757
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:14,340
So daughter is thinking she pretends it's not criticism,
758
00:39:14,350 --> 00:39:16,260
but she's obviously disingenuous.
759
00:39:16,270 --> 00:39:17,189
Of course it is.
760
00:39:17,669 --> 00:39:19,500
And the other is thinking,
761
00:39:19,929 --> 00:39:20,260
I don't know,
762
00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:21,060
what's the matter with her?
763
00:39:21,070 --> 00:39:22,250
Why is she so sensitive?
764
00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:22,959
It's so obvious.
765
00:39:22,969 --> 00:39:24,179
I'm just trying to be helpful.
766
00:39:25,060 --> 00:39:30,879
They're both there and I sometimes point out often not just mothers,
767
00:39:30,889 --> 00:39:31,929
it's friends,
768
00:39:31,939 --> 00:39:32,909
it's partners,
769
00:39:32,919 --> 00:39:33,899
romantic partners,
770
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:35,879
you want the best for the other.
771
00:39:36,669 --> 00:39:42,510
And so you see ways they could improve and you showing your connection,
772
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:43,679
your love,
773
00:39:43,689 --> 00:39:49,219
your concern by giving advice point how they could do things better.
774
00:39:49,229 --> 00:39:49,689
Well,
775
00:39:50,489 --> 00:39:55,449
any suggestion for advice or improvement is criticism.
776
00:39:55,770 --> 00:39:57,000
If you weren't doing something wrong,
777
00:39:57,010 --> 00:40:00,860
you wouldn't need the advice with the help.
778
00:40:02,010 --> 00:40:03,110
On the other hand,
779
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,409
someone who didn't care at all wouldn't be offering wouldn't be bothering to tell you.
780
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:16,709
So it is also connection and just realizing that it can be both to say the other person's right.
781
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,949
Doesn't mean you have to be wrong is a real breakthrough.
782
00:40:20,659 --> 00:40:27,320
I have had so many mothers of adult daughters after reading the book telling me uh one my,
783
00:40:27,330 --> 00:40:29,479
I was so moved by this woman said,
784
00:40:29,489 --> 00:40:31,379
thank you for giving my daughter back to me.
785
00:40:32,169 --> 00:40:36,919
She realized her daughter's point and started just biting her tongue.
786
00:40:36,929 --> 00:40:37,409
Now,
787
00:40:37,419 --> 00:40:40,199
if you think something is life or death,
788
00:40:40,209 --> 00:40:40,550
of course,
789
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:41,370
you go ahead and say it.
790
00:40:41,379 --> 00:40:47,739
But realizing that all these good intentions didn't mean you're not coming across as critical.
791
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,189
And then I think of a daughter who said,
792
00:40:51,610 --> 00:40:54,199
thank you so much for the first time after reading your book,
793
00:40:54,209 --> 00:40:57,120
I went to visit my mother and we didn't have any fights first time.
794
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,300
And I said,
795
00:40:58,310 --> 00:40:58,399
well,
796
00:40:58,409 --> 00:41:00,340
what's an example of what was different?
797
00:41:01,290 --> 00:41:02,070
And she said,
798
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:02,310
well,
799
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:02,729
ok,
800
00:41:02,739 --> 00:41:05,219
here's an example while I was visiting,
801
00:41:05,229 --> 00:41:05,969
I went shopping,
802
00:41:05,979 --> 00:41:07,610
I bought two pairs of socks,
803
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:08,659
one black,
804
00:41:08,669 --> 00:41:09,659
one navy.
805
00:41:10,310 --> 00:41:13,820
And the next day I was wearing a pair and my mother said,
806
00:41:13,830 --> 00:41:16,260
are you sure you're not wearing one of each color?
807
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:19,919
And she said in the past,
808
00:41:19,929 --> 00:41:22,229
I would have said mom,
809
00:41:22,989 --> 00:41:26,399
I have a master's degree and you don't think I can match my socks.
810
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:28,500
And then she said,
811
00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:30,110
she caught herself and she thought,
812
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:30,540
you know,
813
00:41:31,399 --> 00:41:34,260
who else is gonna care about the color of my socks.
814
00:41:35,739 --> 00:41:36,260
And,
815
00:41:36,270 --> 00:41:36,580
and,
816
00:41:36,590 --> 00:41:39,659
and that is often what people talk about as the,
817
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:44,719
what they what they treasure about a mother daughter relationship or any close relationship.
818
00:41:44,909 --> 00:41:45,120
You know,
819
00:41:45,129 --> 00:41:46,340
who else can I tell?
820
00:41:46,350 --> 00:41:48,540
I got a good deal on toilet paper.
821
00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:55,610
So it cares about the details that in itself since I sometimes use the term meta message,
822
00:41:55,780 --> 00:42:00,550
the fact that you're saying it sends a message so that,
823
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:09,389
that just is true in so many contexts to realize it can be both a sign of connection and a sign of up who's up,
824
00:42:09,399 --> 00:42:10,129
who's down.
825
00:42:10,679 --> 00:42:12,969
And it's just which one you're focusing on.
826
00:42:13,429 --> 00:42:15,209
My kids have gotten really good at this,
827
00:42:15,219 --> 00:42:17,370
the meta analysis piece.
828
00:42:17,379 --> 00:42:21,209
I do a lot of work with process and problem solving.
829
00:42:21,219 --> 00:42:23,219
That's my job is solving problems.
830
00:42:23,229 --> 00:42:23,439
And,
831
00:42:23,770 --> 00:42:25,760
and so this last couple of weeks,
832
00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:32,179
I've been deep with the start up and like all of these circular problems and I just get in the zone of problem solving.
833
00:42:32,189 --> 00:42:33,030
And in the middle of this,
834
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:38,850
my son calls me and I was in problem solving mode and I caught myself in the middle of something and I'm like,
835
00:42:38,860 --> 00:42:39,760
oh sweetie,
836
00:42:39,770 --> 00:42:40,719
I'm really sorry,
837
00:42:40,729 --> 00:42:41,020
I'm,
838
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:42,530
I'm in this mode of problem solving.
839
00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:44,840
Do you want me to problem solve or do you want me to listen?
840
00:42:45,129 --> 00:42:47,469
And my kids have also gotten good at reminding me,
841
00:42:47,479 --> 00:42:49,389
mom just want you to listen.
842
00:42:49,399 --> 00:42:51,090
So it's kind of coming back to that,
843
00:42:51,219 --> 00:42:51,429
you know,
844
00:42:51,439 --> 00:42:58,129
not necessarily what are the rules but what are those expectations we have of each other in this moment and why are you calling me?
845
00:42:58,139 --> 00:42:59,800
It's not to solve a problem.
846
00:42:59,810 --> 00:43:00,479
It's to,
847
00:43:00,489 --> 00:43:00,800
you know,
848
00:43:00,810 --> 00:43:02,219
share the price of toilet paper,
849
00:43:02,229 --> 00:43:03,340
whatever it happens to be,
850
00:43:03,350 --> 00:43:04,520
that's on my mind that I,
851
00:43:04,584 --> 00:43:05,745
I just want to share with you.
852
00:43:05,754 --> 00:43:11,054
So I really love it that and I don't know if this is kind of a generational thing,
853
00:43:11,064 --> 00:43:21,185
at least with my kids and their friends that meta analysis of what's going on and kind of setting expectations near the beginning of the conversations of what it is.
854
00:43:21,195 --> 00:43:22,514
They want to get out of it.
855
00:43:22,635 --> 00:43:23,955
It's wonderful.
856
00:43:35,229 --> 00:43:36,639
I'm gonna go to Steven Pinker,
857
00:43:36,649 --> 00:43:38,070
another wonderful linguist.
858
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,169
He talks and you mentioned this a little before something.
859
00:43:40,179 --> 00:43:41,969
This is the actual sounds.
860
00:43:41,979 --> 00:43:43,330
When we're having a conversation,
861
00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:45,530
the sounds are not the same as,
862
00:43:45,540 --> 00:43:48,409
as language and our perception of language.
863
00:43:48,780 --> 00:43:56,959
What you write is that much or even most meaning in conversation doesn't reside in the words that are spoken,
864
00:43:56,969 --> 00:44:00,989
but in the person who is listening to them and the,
865
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,949
the meaning that they are bringing into that conversation based on their context and lived experience.
866
00:44:06,959 --> 00:44:08,969
So you've talked about this,
867
00:44:08,979 --> 00:44:09,149
the,
868
00:44:09,159 --> 00:44:16,610
the likelihood that individuals will tend to interpret someone else's words as one or the other depends on the hero's own focus and concerns.
869
00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:21,889
And clearly this is what you've been writing about in 9 to 5 in the mothers and daughters books,
870
00:44:21,899 --> 00:44:22,239
et cetera.
871
00:44:22,659 --> 00:44:23,669
So I'm just wondering,
872
00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:23,889
I mean,
873
00:44:23,899 --> 00:44:24,090
you,
874
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:25,310
you're full of anecdotes,
875
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:36,820
if you could just share another anecdote on this idea of that listeners context and how maybe we as speakers in a conversation can be paying attention to that,
876
00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:37,080
you know,
877
00:44:37,090 --> 00:44:40,449
and maybe how that shows up in conversational style or in the,
878
00:44:40,459 --> 00:44:41,639
your analysis.
879
00:44:41,649 --> 00:44:44,310
If you notice that somebody is noticing,
880
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,149
maybe that the listener isn't hearing things in the intended way.
881
00:44:49,929 --> 00:44:53,709
It became especially significant in the books.
882
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,810
I was writing about family relationships,
883
00:44:56,139 --> 00:44:58,449
but it's actually true in all conversations.
884
00:44:58,669 --> 00:45:01,979
We don't take meaning from this conversation alone.
885
00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:04,709
We take it from all the conversations we've had before.
886
00:45:05,899 --> 00:45:10,590
And that means both how we experience people using words in the past,
887
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:17,239
how we ex experience words in the past and what we know about your conversational style.
888
00:45:17,250 --> 00:45:22,520
What we know about you a quick example,
889
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:25,729
I was visiting my mother and she said,
890
00:45:25,739 --> 00:45:26,050
um,
891
00:45:26,419 --> 00:45:27,770
do you like your hair that long?
892
00:45:31,590 --> 00:45:32,969
And I laughed and she asked why.
893
00:45:32,979 --> 00:45:33,370
And I said,
894
00:45:33,379 --> 00:45:33,520
you know,
895
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:36,889
women tell me so much that their mothers are critical of their hair.
896
00:45:36,899 --> 00:45:38,429
And she said I wasn't criticizing.
897
00:45:38,469 --> 00:45:39,260
I let it go.
898
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,510
And then later in the visit,
899
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:40,770
mom,
900
00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:42,030
what do you think of my hair?
901
00:45:42,540 --> 00:45:44,370
I think it's a little too long.
902
00:45:45,590 --> 00:45:49,459
I knew that my mother tended to think my hair was too long.
903
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:55,110
I knew that before she said anything and that's often the case in family conversations.
904
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,280
So some people will say about their mothers in particular.
905
00:45:58,290 --> 00:45:59,300
But the people too.
906
00:46:00,010 --> 00:46:01,439
She doesn't have to say anything.
907
00:46:01,449 --> 00:46:08,330
It's that look and I hear this and think of more than one African American person.
908
00:46:08,340 --> 00:46:09,330
I was interviewing who,
909
00:46:09,340 --> 00:46:10,030
who said that.
910
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:11,409
But I think it's true for everybody.
911
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:17,000
So some of it is what you know about that person and your ongoing relationship,
912
00:46:17,419 --> 00:46:20,280
but words are underdetermined.
913
00:46:21,340 --> 00:46:26,040
They could mean so many different things and as we all know there's intonation,
914
00:46:26,830 --> 00:46:28,330
I'm interested in apologies.
915
00:46:28,969 --> 00:46:30,330
There's sorry,
916
00:46:31,620 --> 00:46:32,750
sorry,
917
00:46:34,229 --> 00:46:34,800
sorry.
918
00:46:35,429 --> 00:46:35,439
Oh,
919
00:46:35,449 --> 00:46:35,929
sorry.
920
00:46:35,969 --> 00:46:35,979
I,
921
00:46:37,379 --> 00:46:38,370
I'm sorry.
922
00:46:38,770 --> 00:46:39,149
I mean,
923
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:44,129
I could do this for 20 iterations and they're all different.
924
00:46:44,229 --> 00:46:44,860
Uh It's,
925
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:45,969
and it's one word,
926
00:46:45,979 --> 00:46:48,610
just one word being said in different ways.
927
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,709
So we're attuned to all of that and that's where we get meaning.
928
00:46:52,959 --> 00:46:54,209
We don't just,
929
00:46:54,219 --> 00:46:56,770
we don't walk around with a dictionary in our heads.
930
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:04,219
We walk around with a lifetime of experience using language and interpreting language.
931
00:47:04,689 --> 00:47:13,739
And I think then that's a particularly difficult in dealing in family situations when we have so much meaning embedded in the person that you're conversing with.
932
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:15,379
And then on the other hand,
933
00:47:15,389 --> 00:47:17,560
getting into conversations with people,
934
00:47:17,570 --> 00:47:22,419
you don't know at all where there's so much guesswork involved in how are my words hitting here?
935
00:47:22,620 --> 00:47:26,629
I want to get into the thing that this podcast is all about,
936
00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:27,879
which is interruption.
937
00:47:27,889 --> 00:47:32,510
And you done some marvelous work on interruption,
938
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,590
overlapping latching.
939
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:40,229
And I wanted to preface this with one of the reasons I'm really interested in this is,
940
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,709
I have a tendency to interrupt people.
941
00:47:43,770 --> 00:47:45,100
And in general,
942
00:47:45,110 --> 00:47:48,489
the interruption is when somebody is explaining an idea.
943
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:49,389
And I'm like,
944
00:47:49,399 --> 00:47:49,590
oh,
945
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:50,750
that's really awesome.
946
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,090
And I try to add something onto the idea and a way to build it.
947
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:57,770
So it's like an enthusiastic interruption overlay.
948
00:47:57,929 --> 00:48:01,139
And I have been told that that is a bad thing to do that.
949
00:48:01,149 --> 00:48:14,110
It is rude and impolite and I find it really hard to wait until somebody's done because I feel like it's impolite not to jump in and show my enthusiasm about their idea and to build upon it.
950
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:20,679
And I'm expecting them to keep talking with me and jump in and have this really cool harmonizing kind of interaction.
951
00:48:20,689 --> 00:48:22,540
So when I read your work,
952
00:48:22,550 --> 00:48:24,330
it's like this value of like,
953
00:48:24,340 --> 00:48:28,010
ah somebody out there in the world thinks it's OK to do this.
954
00:48:28,020 --> 00:48:28,139
I mean,
955
00:48:28,149 --> 00:48:31,830
I know it's not always OK to interrupt and that you need to give I get it.
956
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:32,919
But at the same time,
957
00:48:32,929 --> 00:48:35,489
it's not always not OK to interrupt.
958
00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:40,649
So I'm wondering if you could talk about how you define interruption,
959
00:48:40,939 --> 00:48:47,050
how it's different from overlapping and matching kind of from that very technical point of view of conversational style.
960
00:48:48,830 --> 00:48:58,550
The first point that Jimmy is crucial in this discussion overlap is a description more than one voice is going at once.
961
00:48:59,409 --> 00:49:02,030
Interruption is an interpretation.
962
00:49:02,439 --> 00:49:03,550
It's judgment.
963
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,080
It's saying why you talked along or why somebody talked along.
964
00:49:08,729 --> 00:49:17,149
And so I really bristle when I hear people using interruption for something that is not intended to steal the floor.
965
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:21,419
An interruption cuts you off and takes over.
966
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:22,270
Now,
967
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,709
sometimes that may be ok,
968
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,050
maybe the person was done and they're o that's ok with them.
969
00:49:27,219 --> 00:49:28,939
But it's an interpretation,
970
00:49:30,139 --> 00:49:40,070
an overlap could be a way of trying to take the floor and it could be a way of showing engagement as you just described.
971
00:49:40,219 --> 00:49:43,669
So I ended up talking about two types of overlap.
972
00:49:44,159 --> 00:49:54,020
Co-operative overlap is the word that I devised for talking along to show engagement or some other participant.
973
00:49:54,030 --> 00:49:58,659
Another term I sometimes use is participatory listenership.
974
00:49:59,260 --> 00:50:00,060
You're listening,
975
00:50:00,070 --> 00:50:00,969
but you're not listening.
976
00:50:00,979 --> 00:50:03,879
As if you were incapable of speaking,
977
00:50:03,909 --> 00:50:06,770
you're speaking to show and demonstrate,
978
00:50:06,889 --> 00:50:07,120
you,
979
00:50:07,129 --> 00:50:09,189
you're listening and,
980
00:50:09,199 --> 00:50:13,679
and then the non cooper overlap would be,
981
00:50:13,689 --> 00:50:14,949
would be the interruption.
982
00:50:14,959 --> 00:50:16,800
A funny little side point.
983
00:50:16,919 --> 00:50:19,120
I used that term in my academic writing.
984
00:50:19,770 --> 00:50:25,709
I never used it in my writing for general audiences because I thought not good to use technical terms.
985
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:27,850
A couple of years ago,
986
00:50:28,330 --> 00:50:30,419
somebody found my academic book,
987
00:50:30,429 --> 00:50:34,159
conversational style uh and got so excited.
988
00:50:34,169 --> 00:50:38,120
They made a tiktok and then it went on Instagram and it went viral.
989
00:50:38,129 --> 00:50:45,729
It's the most viral anything I ever did when it was picked up by so many people of different cultural backgrounds.
990
00:50:45,989 --> 00:50:51,750
So uh I had written an article in New York Jewish conversational style and it's actually not Jewish.
991
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,199
It's East European my family background is East European,
992
00:50:55,209 --> 00:50:57,290
Jewish and my friends too,
993
00:50:57,370 --> 00:50:59,189
from that Thanksgiving dinner.
994
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:09,870
And we were doing this talking along to show enthusiasm and it made it difficult for some of the Californians to hold the floor because they thought we were interrupting.
995
00:51:09,879 --> 00:51:10,350
We weren't,
996
00:51:10,659 --> 00:51:11,679
we didn't intend to,
997
00:51:11,689 --> 00:51:17,399
sometimes the person will stop because they think you're taking the floor.
998
00:51:17,939 --> 00:51:20,179
So who created the interruption?
999
00:51:20,189 --> 00:51:21,760
The one who stopped,
1000
00:51:21,929 --> 00:51:23,479
they weren't supposed to stop.
1001
00:51:23,489 --> 00:51:26,679
That was supposed to encourage them to keep going.
1002
00:51:27,939 --> 00:51:31,570
So the initial Tik Tok was someone who said,
1003
00:51:31,580 --> 00:51:31,850
you know,
1004
00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:34,919
I'm such a relief to know there's a name for it.
1005
00:51:35,429 --> 00:51:44,270
Uh But it kind of really kind of upsets me that I keep getting told of being rude when I'm doing something that has a positive value in my culture.
1006
00:51:44,459 --> 00:51:49,780
And it was followed by all these other tiktoks or Instagram.
1007
00:51:49,790 --> 00:51:52,699
If you Google my name and Cooper overlapping,
1008
00:51:52,709 --> 00:51:53,959
you'll see that they'll come up,
1009
00:51:54,260 --> 00:51:54,550
you know,
1010
00:51:54,560 --> 00:52:05,060
one was my family is black and we do co-operative overlapping because that's our culture in other was my family is French and we do cooper of overlapping because it's our culture.
1011
00:52:05,070 --> 00:52:07,399
And um so it's,
1012
00:52:07,409 --> 00:52:07,550
it,
1013
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,260
there are many parts of the world in many cultural groups where this is,
1014
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:17,239
this is the norm but not the midwestern United States,
1015
00:52:17,250 --> 00:52:19,709
which is settled by the northern Europeans.
1016
00:52:19,739 --> 00:52:21,889
It's more a southern European.
1017
00:52:21,979 --> 00:52:23,169
So Italians,
1018
00:52:23,179 --> 00:52:24,060
Greeks,
1019
00:52:24,419 --> 00:52:25,370
East Europeans,
1020
00:52:25,379 --> 00:52:25,840
Poles,
1021
00:52:25,850 --> 00:52:26,699
Russians.
1022
00:52:27,010 --> 00:52:30,610
Uh and many of the Jewish immigrants were from Poland and Russia.
1023
00:52:30,620 --> 00:52:32,149
So it's that East European,
1024
00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:34,909
when I talked about this stuff on talk shows,
1025
00:52:34,919 --> 00:52:40,270
somebody would call in sometimes and say my partner and I are both from New York.
1026
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:41,370
We're both Jewish,
1027
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,570
but this is a problem.
1028
00:52:43,580 --> 00:52:46,489
My partner accuses me of interrupting and I said,
1029
00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:46,750
well,
1030
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,419
is one of you East European,
1031
00:52:48,429 --> 00:52:51,209
Jewish and the other German Jewish.
1032
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,250
And in every case,
1033
00:52:53,260 --> 00:52:53,850
that was,
1034
00:52:53,860 --> 00:52:55,250
that was the situation.
1035
00:52:55,590 --> 00:52:57,639
It's regional,
1036
00:52:59,260 --> 00:53:01,780
that's the important distinction.
1037
00:53:01,790 --> 00:53:04,449
Not every overlap is an interruption.
1038
00:53:05,169 --> 00:53:11,820
But then there's the ability that goes along with conversational style that I've observed.
1039
00:53:11,830 --> 00:53:12,179
And you know,
1040
00:53:12,189 --> 00:53:13,179
that I talk about,
1041
00:53:13,479 --> 00:53:15,429
I was again on the top show very,
1042
00:53:15,439 --> 00:53:22,290
very early on talking about this topic and somebody called in woman and she said,
1043
00:53:22,729 --> 00:53:23,080
you know,
1044
00:53:23,090 --> 00:53:23,629
I do that.
1045
00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:26,270
My husband's always accusing me of interrupting and,
1046
00:53:26,489 --> 00:53:29,780
and taking over and I don't know why I'm not,
1047
00:53:29,790 --> 00:53:30,060
you know,
1048
00:53:30,070 --> 00:53:30,540
he,
1049
00:53:30,550 --> 00:53:31,120
he can,
1050
00:53:31,209 --> 00:53:33,459
he can take the floor just as easy as I can.
1051
00:53:33,929 --> 00:53:39,090
And her husband in the background said you need a crowbar to get into your conversation.
1052
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:45,379
And what I loved about it is that,
1053
00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:46,030
yeah,
1054
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:47,419
from her point of view,
1055
00:53:47,429 --> 00:53:49,340
I think she said he's a big boy.
1056
00:53:49,850 --> 00:53:50,300
He could,
1057
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:50,860
he could,
1058
00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:51,110
you know,
1059
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,060
get it if he wants.
1060
00:53:52,780 --> 00:53:54,280
It's not about being a big boy.
1061
00:53:54,290 --> 00:53:59,709
It's about your experience in communicating that gives you abilities.
1062
00:54:00,439 --> 00:54:04,020
So if you have grown up with that or gotten used to it.
1063
00:54:04,149 --> 00:54:05,310
Sure you can,
1064
00:54:05,790 --> 00:54:08,350
you can get the floor if people aren't stopping you.
1065
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:09,050
Just for one thing,
1066
00:54:09,060 --> 00:54:09,379
you,
1067
00:54:09,389 --> 00:54:13,360
you keep trying in the Thanksgiving dinner conversation.
1068
00:54:13,370 --> 00:54:16,500
I recorded one of the New York speakers.
1069
00:54:16,850 --> 00:54:18,129
I call it persistence.
1070
00:54:18,139 --> 00:54:19,649
Tried to say something.
1071
00:54:20,330 --> 00:54:21,669
Other people talked over him,
1072
00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:22,669
try again.
1073
00:54:22,879 --> 00:54:24,189
Other people talked over him.
1074
00:54:24,199 --> 00:54:26,979
Tried again seven times.
1075
00:54:27,699 --> 00:54:31,800
I counted seven times till he finally got the floor.
1076
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:32,840
He didn't mind.
1077
00:54:33,179 --> 00:54:33,439
You know,
1078
00:54:33,449 --> 00:54:34,080
he's just saying,
1079
00:54:34,090 --> 00:54:34,929
is this the moment?
1080
00:54:34,939 --> 00:54:35,729
Is this the moment?
1081
00:54:35,739 --> 00:54:36,520
Is this the moment?
1082
00:54:36,750 --> 00:54:38,719
And then the moment came and he got the floor.
1083
00:54:39,429 --> 00:54:42,330
So I call that high involvement style.
1084
00:54:42,340 --> 00:54:43,679
I don't call it New York.
1085
00:54:43,689 --> 00:54:46,169
Am I just chasing high involvement style?
1086
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:52,979
What it means is we always have to show we're involved and we always have to be considerate of other people.
1087
00:54:53,370 --> 00:55:00,939
So the high involvement style puts the emphasis on ways of speaking that demonstrate your involvement.
1088
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:02,260
So you talk more,
1089
00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:03,229
you stand closer,
1090
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:04,060
you talk louder,
1091
00:55:04,070 --> 00:55:11,709
you talk about more personal things and you have short pauses and you talk along to show enthusiastic engagement.
1092
00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:20,370
The high considerateness speaker really can't get the floor because they don't have that background of experience.
1093
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:21,500
And so you,
1094
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:31,139
we do really do have different abilities just like a person who tends to start a conversation vague and then get to what they want.
1095
00:55:31,909 --> 00:55:35,729
Really can't start a conversation by saying I want this,
1096
00:55:36,250 --> 00:55:37,010
they can't.
1097
00:55:38,409 --> 00:55:46,459
So uh it's so important to keep that in mind that different styles also means different abilities.
1098
00:55:46,469 --> 00:55:54,909
And that's why the interruption overlap is so significant because you can't have any of these other conversational style issues come up.
1099
00:55:54,919 --> 00:55:56,280
If you can't get the floor,
1100
00:55:56,409 --> 00:56:05,840
that's why it is so heartbreaking to hear people making these negative conclusions about each other because I can't get the floor.
1101
00:56:05,850 --> 00:56:10,830
You're not giving me a chance to speak because you can't get the floor.
1102
00:56:10,850 --> 00:56:13,030
You're not doing your part in this conversation.
1103
00:56:13,959 --> 00:56:17,939
Is it something about me or is it you just don't have any ideas?
1104
00:56:18,929 --> 00:56:24,580
We interpret each other's abilities and intentions and we don't think,
1105
00:56:24,590 --> 00:56:26,939
is there a conversational style going on here?
1106
00:56:27,169 --> 00:56:29,379
And then you get the cultural stereotypes,
1107
00:56:30,129 --> 00:56:30,350
you know,
1108
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,439
the pushy New Yorker,
1109
00:56:31,449 --> 00:56:35,570
the aggressive New Yorker because it comes across that way to you.
1110
00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:39,080
I wanna reiterate something that you wrote.
1111
00:56:39,370 --> 00:56:51,239
This is a quote from you just didn't understand that changing our own style is hard because style is not just how you act but also who you feel yourself to be.
1112
00:56:51,610 --> 00:56:54,520
And I wanna put that out there.
1113
00:56:54,899 --> 00:56:59,060
I also want to ask a question about inclusiveness,
1114
00:56:59,070 --> 00:57:03,399
which you're getting to when we talk about when we talk about cross cultural communication,
1115
00:57:03,989 --> 00:57:08,889
do you think that and I'm going to use the vernacular word interruption?
1116
00:57:08,899 --> 00:57:12,419
But we can also use the specific term overlapping.
1117
00:57:12,750 --> 00:57:24,530
Do you think that it is possible to see overlapping as a route to harmony in speaking?
1118
00:57:24,540 --> 00:57:27,110
And I mean harmony in the musical sense,
1119
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:37,760
not in the uh emotional sense that this is something that we could perhaps explore in conversation as a way to be inclusive,
1120
00:57:37,770 --> 00:57:44,800
that we could hear two things at once and give two things the floor at the same time.
1121
00:57:44,810 --> 00:57:46,300
And I'm wincing as I say this.
1122
00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:47,199
But I also,
1123
00:57:47,209 --> 00:58:04,699
I just have this hope that we can use this method of overlapping speech as a way of giving multiple people the floor at the same time or making space on the floor for multiple people at the same time as a way of being more inclusive in the way we speak.
1124
00:58:05,189 --> 00:58:05,209
I,
1125
00:58:05,219 --> 00:58:07,489
I'm wondering what you think about that as a concept.
1126
00:58:08,379 --> 00:58:12,879
I'm glad you're raising the issue of diversity inclusion.
1127
00:58:13,989 --> 00:58:15,510
This has to be step one.
1128
00:58:16,060 --> 00:58:19,750
Letting people in is not gonna have a good result.
1129
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:26,790
If you simply expect them to come in and talk the way we do and behave the way we do like that guy,
1130
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:27,600
you're a big boy,
1131
00:58:27,610 --> 00:58:29,639
you can get the floor like everybody else.
1132
00:58:30,379 --> 00:58:30,820
Well,
1133
00:58:30,830 --> 00:58:31,469
you can't,
1134
00:58:32,770 --> 00:58:35,219
if you don't allow for these style of differences,
1135
00:58:35,229 --> 00:58:36,270
it's gonna flop.
1136
00:58:36,929 --> 00:58:38,159
It has to be step one.
1137
00:58:39,439 --> 00:58:45,219
The question of what you're gonna specifically do about it in a specific context.
1138
00:58:46,030 --> 00:58:47,330
It's challenging,
1139
00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:53,489
but I sincerely believe it's just another level of mutual respect.
1140
00:58:54,510 --> 00:58:56,010
Realizing we,
1141
00:58:56,020 --> 00:58:57,919
we come from different backgrounds,
1142
00:58:57,929 --> 00:58:59,010
geographic,
1143
00:58:59,020 --> 00:58:59,610
ethnic,
1144
00:58:59,620 --> 00:59:01,389
regional class,
1145
00:59:01,399 --> 00:59:02,850
different personalities,
1146
00:59:02,860 --> 00:59:03,370
introvert,
1147
00:59:03,379 --> 00:59:22,129
extrovert all these different influences on our style and just starting out if we could start out with the assumption of good intentions and see whether that might pan out rather than starting out with the assumption of what's the matter with you.
1148
00:59:23,580 --> 00:59:26,219
And we're just gonna figure out what's the matter.
1149
00:59:26,780 --> 00:59:28,800
And if we at some point,
1150
00:59:28,810 --> 00:59:35,179
if the interaction is an ongoing war on relationships that are gonna be carried on over time,
1151
00:59:35,959 --> 00:59:37,260
reading something,
1152
00:59:37,270 --> 00:59:38,219
talking about it,
1153
00:59:38,229 --> 00:59:42,139
having a discussion group about this really is the second step,
1154
00:59:42,149 --> 00:59:43,020
shall we say?
1155
00:59:43,709 --> 00:59:48,030
If the first step is just realizing that there are these style differences,
1156
00:59:48,500 --> 00:59:50,729
something that's important to keep in mind.
1157
00:59:51,219 --> 01:00:00,610
It's very easy to see how someone who has what I call high considerateness style is going to find the high involvement style offensive.
1158
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:07,899
It's very easy to see that if I need a longer pause and you need a shorter pause and you're doing all the talking,
1159
01:00:07,909 --> 01:00:14,820
I might resent that it's a little harder to get one's head around the fact that it's equally offensive on the other side.
1160
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:24,530
Uh And I think I was once talking to someone who was from New York and had that background and I was trying to explain this the other style.
1161
01:00:24,540 --> 01:00:25,100
And I said,
1162
01:00:25,110 --> 01:00:25,429
you know,
1163
01:00:25,439 --> 01:00:28,610
we all have to focus on considerateness.
1164
01:00:28,620 --> 01:00:33,320
We all have to focus on involvement and it's just where we put the emphasis.
1165
01:00:33,330 --> 01:00:35,010
And at one point she said,
1166
01:00:35,969 --> 01:00:43,580
but all that high considerateness is so offensive and it can be equally offensive.
1167
01:00:43,590 --> 01:00:45,570
I think you said a little bit about this yourself,
1168
01:00:45,580 --> 01:00:46,649
aren't you listening?
1169
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,169
Don't you care about me?
1170
01:00:48,949 --> 01:00:52,409
Uh And there are so many iterations of that we could talk about.
1171
01:00:52,729 --> 01:01:02,860
So the overall point I hope we can all keep in mind is start from a point of assuming good intentions.
1172
01:01:03,669 --> 01:01:05,820
It's a nicer world to live in.
1173
01:01:05,830 --> 01:01:09,350
If you think more people have good intentions.
1174
01:01:09,919 --> 01:01:11,810
I'm not saying everybody always does.
1175
01:01:11,820 --> 01:01:13,530
You don't need me to tell you.
1176
01:01:13,540 --> 01:01:21,110
Sometimes people don't have good intentions but sometimes you'll think they don't and that might not be the case.
1177
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:21,850
And that's,
1178
01:01:21,860 --> 01:01:22,830
that's the news.
1179
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,409
That's why I think this kind of work is important.
1180
01:01:27,550 --> 01:01:33,409
Just understanding what conversational style is and how it works is a really important first step.
1181
01:01:33,419 --> 01:01:33,449
Yeah.
1182
01:01:33,459 --> 01:01:36,570
And I think it's the conversational style exists.
1183
01:01:36,580 --> 01:01:38,179
I think that's the even like that.
1184
01:01:38,189 --> 01:01:41,520
Maybe it's the prest step that there are styles that we bring in.
1185
01:01:41,530 --> 01:01:44,409
There are ways that of our being that is,
1186
01:01:44,489 --> 01:01:44,699
you know,
1187
01:01:44,709 --> 01:01:46,389
how we express ourselves as part of,
1188
01:01:46,399 --> 01:01:46,889
as I said,
1189
01:01:46,899 --> 01:01:47,399
as you said,
1190
01:01:47,409 --> 01:01:48,889
how we feel ourselves to be.
1191
01:01:48,995 --> 01:01:51,935
And if we come into these conversations,
1192
01:01:51,945 --> 01:01:52,534
as you said,
1193
01:01:52,544 --> 01:01:52,955
with a,
1194
01:01:52,965 --> 01:01:57,364
a feeling of mutual respect and expectation of good intentions,
1195
01:01:57,375 --> 01:02:04,534
I think we'll get to a place where we can actually engage in that meta communication to understand each other better,
1196
01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:11,169
to just realize that when you're thinking this is the kind of person you are you're rude,
1197
01:02:11,179 --> 01:02:12,020
you're intrusive.
1198
01:02:12,030 --> 01:02:15,850
You're interrogating me that we're judging a way of speaking.
1199
01:02:16,510 --> 01:02:19,169
Step back and ask what was the way of speaking?
1200
01:02:19,179 --> 01:02:20,820
That drew me to that conclusion?
1201
01:02:21,100 --> 01:02:23,489
Could that way of speaking mean something else?
1202
01:02:23,729 --> 01:02:28,010
And that's a very hard step to make because we've spent our lives learning.
1203
01:02:28,020 --> 01:02:32,810
This is the way we interpret people and if to say,
1204
01:02:32,820 --> 01:02:38,659
uh oh all my antenna for interpreting people could be off that.
1205
01:02:38,669 --> 01:02:39,979
That's pretty scary.
1206
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:41,780
So,
1207
01:02:41,790 --> 01:02:42,659
thank you.
1208
01:02:42,669 --> 01:02:49,290
Every time I engage with your work I learn and it's just been an absolute pleasure being able to talk to you in person and go through these ideas.
1209
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:49,379
So,
1210
01:02:49,389 --> 01:02:55,860
thank you so much time today and I'm looking forward to sharing this conversation with other people as well.
1211
01:03:00,570 --> 01:03:03,679
Thank you for joining us for more about we interrupt.
1212
01:03:03,689 --> 01:03:09,479
Please see our website at www dot we interrupt this.com for show notes,
1213
01:03:09,489 --> 01:03:09,919
links,
1214
01:03:09,929 --> 01:03:11,879
credits and other episodes.
1215
01:03:11,889 --> 01:03:16,780
Contact me on Twitter at hack yak to recommend topics or speakers for the series.
1216
01:03:16,989 --> 01:03:22,780
This podcast was produced on the traditional lands and waters of the Menominee Hawai in Ojibwe peoples.
1217
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,899
I pay my respects to elders past and present and to emerging and future indigenous leaders.
1218
01:03:28,060 --> 01:03:32,659
It is a gift to be grounding and growing this work within these beautiful forests and waterways.
1219
01:03:33,010 --> 01:03:43,469
Thank you to Emma Levinson for her artwork featured on our website Segue Music is looking for a way out by Paolo Pavan licensed from of noise EV and intro.
1220
01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:52,320
Extra music is Bartok's melody with interruptions played by Alan Huckleberry for the University of Iowa piano pedagogy video recording project.
1221
01:03:52,340 --> 01:04:01,469
The podcast image is a public domain CC ZERO image from raw pixel lunch at the restaurant for the rowers lunch by Pierre Auguste Renoir.