Why Best Hires Become Problems

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Tim Staton: Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
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Most businesses don't fail because of bad strategy; they fail because people don't execute.
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Teams are not aligned, and leaders tolerate mediocrity.
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Our guest today, Chris Hallberg, a.k.a. the Business Arjun—he's a former U.S.
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Army vet veteran, he's a turnaround specialist, and author of the no-nonsense guide to the Business Sergeant's Field Manual.
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Chris has been there, done that, in both combat and the boardroom.
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Tim Staton: He coaches entrepreneurs to build disciplined, high-performing organizations that actually achieve
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their mission, drawing from military precision and proven systems like EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System.
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He delivers the tough love and practical tools that turn chaos into consistent growth.
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As an interesting side note, he is ranked number 9 on Inc. magazine's top 50 leadership and management experts list.
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So, Chris, welcome to the show.
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Tim Staton: This is Tim Staton with Tim Stating the Obvious.
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What is this podcast about?
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It's simple: you are entitled to great leadership everywhere you go.
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Whether it's a church, whether it's to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
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And so, in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into everyday, relatable, and usable advice.
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Disclaimer: And a quick disclaimer: this show, process, or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer,
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or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute or imply the endorsement of anyone that I am employed
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by or favors them in representation.
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The views are expressed here in my show are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
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reflect those of any employer.
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Tim Staton: Great to be here, Tim.
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I'm really glad we're able to make this happen.
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So, you know, given your background as the Business Sergeant, how did you take what you've learned
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from the military and your leadership there to what you do today?
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Chris Hallberg: Yeah. No one told me I couldn't bring the leadership style with me from the military to the civilian.
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They just said, "Oh, okay, this guy's a little different." Were you in the military?
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Yeah, and matter of fact, I was.
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So it, it, it was kind of a lesson in personal branding.
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When one hires the Business Sergeant, they're not hiring someone to lightly discuss some of their issues.
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They're hiring someone to come in here and identify the issues and start to execute on, on solving them.
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So I think, I think that "fired up, follow me, I'll be up front"—you've seen the LinkedIn meme
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boss right on top, mushing the people, then leader out in front, you know, dragging the, the, the monolith.
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So I think, I think a great leader never asks anyone to do something they're not willing to do themselves.
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We've heard that for eons, decades.
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That grandpa used to say that to me, and it's true.
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And I think being a boss is one thing.
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Being a leader and having the respect, knowing that you're—like, when I, for instance, when
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I had my remodeling company, yeah, like, I'd make sure when the sales reps were showing up at
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10:00 a.m. for the meeting, that I was out pushing a broom around my warehouse.
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Like, I'm like, "Okay, they're going to be here in 10 minutes." Yeah, like, I, I might have
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done that, somebody else might have done that, but I always look for something to say, "How
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can I show them that I'm grinding like they are?" You're right.
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How do I set an example?
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If the boss is in the back pushing a broom around the warehouse to keep things tidy, well, that
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means that that activity is definitely not below me as one of his sales reps.
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So I think a lot of it is, is just being intentional and being committed to the process.
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In America, in the workforce, oftentimes you have to take the leadership position to get the
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next rung on the ladder.
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The corner office, the parking space, that comp that you desire.
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And the problem is, a good bit of humans don't really enjoy the adult daycare that is managing other humans, right? In some cases.
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And other humans find it like a Rubik's Cube.
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You learn the algorithms and you can solve all six sides with enough practice.
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So, so I think, like, that's why we have to have subject matter experts or juniors, regulars, and seniors.
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And I coach that to my clients.
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If you have a subject matter expert, you have to find another place for them.
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But it doesn't necessarily have to be leading other people, because that's not something you've
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foist upon some, something that, that is a calling that one answers.
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Tim Staton: Yeah. So you bring up a lot of good points, and I love how you said, you know, if you have a
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smart person, maybe you define something else that you do.
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Because oftentimes a good doer gets promoted, and then now they have no training on how to lead people.
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But you also mentioned the Rubik's Cube algorithm.
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Can you, can you kind of expand upon, you know, how that really works and how you approach that in your leadership style?
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Chris Hallberg: Yeah. So if you watch YouTube videos and practice the algorithm, I didn't know this.
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My oldest son, Hunter, 21, shout out to Hunter. He's a musical genius.
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Hunter Hallberg is—well, you'll find him on Spotify.
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He's a world-class instrumental guitarist.
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So music, music theories, right? All numbers.
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And he's got that kind of mind.
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He didn't get it from Dad, didn't even get it from Mom. He just has it.
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So, like, when he was, like, 8 or 9 years old, you could toss him a fully scrambled Rubik's
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Cube, and I think, like, 10 or 11 seconds is his record.
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Tim Staton: Oh, wow.
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Chris Hallberg: And he did this competitively.
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But, like, I've never seen him take more than 20, 30 seconds.
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And that's, you could scramble it for a whole day.
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And then he would just look at it, okay, then he sets it down.
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And then as soon as they touch it, that's, that's when they—so he just goes through an algorithm that he's remembered.
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So it really doesn't matter kind of where you start.
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You just start the algorithm, and then it solves all six sides.
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I, I can't explain it, but once you know how to lead people, right, how to manage them, and
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all the other things that go with that, they're very different modes.
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When you're in leadership mode, right, you're thinking.
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When you're in management mode, you're doing.
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So, like, you have to be able to think and do and simplify concepts, concepts into executable chunks.
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So that whole leadership thing is understanding.
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Like, in the military, the officers create the plan, and the sergeants get the troops to execute it, right?
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So, like, I often find in my coaching assignments that the leadership team is pretty well defined.
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The management team's a little bit more squishy.
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So here's a litmus test that I, I coach executives.
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I say, "Okay, you're going to make some major change.
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You're going to communicate something substantial to the company.
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What are you doing with the management team?
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How do you communicate with them?" Right, right.
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With everyone else or in advance with some back and forth?
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Oh, no, we just tell everybody at once.
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I'm like, "Ooh, imagine you're a sergeant, middle manager, someone who leads people but isn't
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an executive on team one, and you're there getting the information real time, and then your
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team looks at you and says, 'What's going on with this?' And you're like, 'I don't know.
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I just found out.'" Right there, you kind of lost your stripes.
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And companies don't really empower mid-managers.
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So as the Business Sergeant, obviously I coach the officers.
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This seems sweet, but I make sure to get my hands on their managers and just get a big old extension
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cord and plug it in the management team and the leadership team.
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And usually it's not plugged in.
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They're wondering why it doesn't work.
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You know, they're trying to turn it on.
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I'm like, "Step one of tech support.
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Is the device plugged in?" And the answer is no most of the time.
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So that's like a great example of empowering the middle because the sergeant spent a lot more
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time with the troops than the officers do.
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Tim Staton: No, absolutely. What do you find the reason for the disconnect?
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Because oftentimes, you know, with, with my background as being military, we're, we're pretty well linked in.
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We let the NCOs know ahead of time what's coming so they can then do their seven steps in the troop leading procedures.
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What is that disconnect in the corporate world?
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Chris Hallberg: I don't know. I think they're senior privates. It's us and them.
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You know, it's two classes.
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Whereas, like, you know, let's just talk about the military again, right?
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Being an officer, you have a way different perspective, right? You have higher, right?
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You have lower, and you what?
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You have company grade, field grade, and general grade officers.
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So there's, like, three kinds.
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You know what I mean?
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So there's, there's, there's different things you're doing in, as an officer.
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But at the end of the day, you know, a story I tell people, and it's true.
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If you're in a unit with amazing officers and amazing NCOs, pinch yourself.
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That's rare to have the command team on both sides be a 10 out of 10.
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That's going to be a world-class experience when it's time to PCS, permanent change of station after two years.
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Like, you're going to be a little sad, especially if you go to some unit that, that has the opposite effect, right?
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But you could have mediocre officers and world-class NCOs, and that'd still be a serviceable
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experience if you're a soldier.
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If you had world-class officers and horrible NCOs, your life would suck, right?
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Because, again, you spend more time with the NCOs as a soldier, and that's really your direct experience.
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So, like, that's why the NCOs, when they have great officers and they really understand that
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dynamic you just listed, like, a successful military unit has to get that.
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Because if you don't, your OER, your NCOR is going to be trash.
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You're going to have turnover issues.
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You're going to have incidents, right?
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Like, it's, it's not going to be a unit people are excited to go.
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I mean, you could be in a battalion, Alpha Company, please send me to Alpha Company, Charlie Company.
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Oh, what did I do?
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You know, so, like, the difference between one unit to another, even though they have the same
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composition, the same headcount, the same structure, the quality of that commander and first
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sergeant or commander and sergeant major, it's a big difference.
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So they teach you that exhaustively in the military, Tim.
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They don't teach that in the civilian business world.
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People like me teach that in the civilian business world, and, and, and that's a valuable thing
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when people get that message.
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And let's be clear, the U.S. military is the greatest, most powerful fighting force to ever exist.
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Look at the Venezuela, the Maduro operation.
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Like, are you kidding me?
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Like, 847 different pieces all flawlessly executed together. One thing went wrong.
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The weather, someone showing up a minute late.
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Like, the whole thing would have fell apart.
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So, like, that's a great example of the best of the best.
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SoCom, Tier One, you know what I mean?
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Like, the Night Stalkers, like, everybody on them that op was the best at what they do, bar none around. So that's my example.
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When you have the right mission with the right operators, the ability to collaborate between
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the command team and the leadership team, the management team, that's what you can do.
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You can pull off that kind of stuff.
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So when a dictator says, "I'm right here, come and get me," okay, give us 60 days. We'll, we'll come.
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You know, I'm your Huckleberry.
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And, and I think that that'll be the last time an enemy dictator, the U.S., cocks off on the
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internet and says, "I'm right here." So I, I, I think, like, that, that to me is like the ultimate leadership, management, and team.
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So if we can just bring a little bit of that, that theory and the communication and the command
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and control of the military into the civilian business world, that's the stuff that I brought over.
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I wrote a book back in 2017 called The Business Sergeant's Field Manual: Military-Grade Execution
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Without the Yelling and Push-Ups.
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So it was basically, this is the stuff that you can easily pull over. It's super helpful.
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Oh, and here's the stuff.
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Leave it right there in the military.
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You can't take your warehouse manager and tie him to a cannon and shoot it a couple of times. That's bad form, right?
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You know what I mean?
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Like, a lot of stuff in the military needs to stay right there because you'd be in HR jail, like, indefinitely.
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But the team building, the commitment, the esprit de corps, what they call culture in the civilian
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business world, kind of the vibe of the tribe, that's all good in the military.
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People don't, you know, join or stay in the military for the money usually, right?
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Like, obviously generals and field grade officers do, do all right, but that's not the amount of sacrifice.
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I mean, you, you could work at a private equity group, right, and make more money and not have
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to do 30 years of your life, you know, austere environments, missing all those family events.
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But anyways, I stay busy because everybody wants a bit of the military.
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Only 7% of the population here in the States has served in some capacity.
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That means the other 93% either wish they did, was curious about it, or, you know, really can't
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argue with the success of our nation's military.
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And the Business Sergeant now, you know, is a free online community where I give that training
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I originally created for civilians to learn about military.
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Turns out it works out as a great course to help transitioning and, and veterans that have been
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out for a minute to synthesize their military skills, maybe fill in some blanks with what I've
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learned in the last, you know, almost 30 years of being out of uniform.
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And they're, they're now picking that up and then we're placing those veterans into veteran-friendly companies.
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So the business has turned into a veteran-powered recruiting company because we got these awesome
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candidates, a lot of them from, like, special operations.
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And then you give them the Business Sergeant's Academy.
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That's a pretty capable human.
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The government spent years and millions of dollars training project management, team building,
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you know, mission, mission planning, intelligence gathering, all the leadership and management you could want.
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And then we give them relevant civilian business training.
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That's a capable person who can learn what you do in a quarter or two.
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And your best leader couldn't carry our guy's rucksack for a weekend.
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So, like, that, that's a really neat thing about the Business Sergeant community is, you know,
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veterans have been popular, rightfully so.
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And, you know, we're having a good time placing vets into companies.
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And we call the halo effect.
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We just put, like, a superhuman here and just a centrifugal circles around that human.
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Discipline, accountability, clarity, positive attitudes. Figure it out. It just happens.
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So that's why I'm a huge proponent of the military.
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And I've found a way to successfully kind of leverage that and harness that in the civilian business world.
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And I think that's really cool for, for all parties included.
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Tim Staton: No, I, I think that's amazing what you've done and what you're doing and, and creating that
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recruiting machine as well to be able to place veterans and veteran-friendly businesses.
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And oftentimes we talked before, whereas in the military, you don't necessarily get to choose your team, right?
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You're, you're like given the team and you're like, "Okay, make them the best they can.
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You got what you got.
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Maybe you can fire them after a couple of months and move them somewhere else." But reality,
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you got what you got.
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And in the civilian world, it's much different.
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So can we talk about curating the right personalities for the right team?
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Chris Hallberg: Yeah, you make an excellent point, Tim.
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Like, they issue you soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines.
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They don't give you, it's not like a draft.
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In the first round from Kentucky, Private So-and-so, right?
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It doesn't work like that.
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They just, they just alphabetically or whatever, there's a Dartboard in some officer's office.
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You, you, you got to think it, it's not scientific.
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It's just, this is how it works.
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So in the military, you're signing a blank check up until you include your life for minimum,
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I think it's three years now.
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Maximum, I think it's 10 years if you want to be a pilot. That's expensive training.
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They want, they want, want to have pilots for a while.
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In the civilian business world, somebody can walk into your office and say, "Tim, I'm just not feeling it.
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Thank you for the opportunity.
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I'm not even going to give you two weeks' notice.
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I'm, I'm just out, like, including today. Figure it out." Right?
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But, so, but they're not as committed.
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But we get like 7 billion people to choose from.
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Whereas back to the military, you have this huge level of commitment, but you have to make do with what you have.
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So the funny thing is, I'd almost rather take a less than polished opal, a diamond, whatever,
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and have them really want it and get like what this is and be willing to be uncomfortable knowing
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that they're green and, and they're seasoning and they enjoy the process.
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They don't want to speed it up.
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They want to just really be there rather than having these wildly talented people that don't give a shit.
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You know, knowing like, "Hey, we have everything. I'm spending the money.
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We're giving you the tech tools.
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Like, you have everything to be successful, but you don't want it like these other people do."
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You know, I'll, I'll take less than perfect.
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That's committed over super talented and whatever, a hundred times out of a hundred times.
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Because if you think about the average civilian organization, usually like 35, 40% of it is
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actually committed once to be there.
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The other 50, 60% is completely mercenary and will leave for another $5,000, $6,000 a year.
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Whereas the best companies, many of my graduate best places to work award winners for, you know, years in a row.
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And that's not a check you write.
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That's an engagement survey that says that 92% of the people at the company would take a bullet
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for you, you know, kind of a thing like best company ever. Yeah.
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And, you know, my clients have, you know, pushing 200 of those individual awards, some of them eight or nine.
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But that's because we've curated a civilian business team like an elite military unit.
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That's the whole point of people.
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You know, people hire me as an EOS implementer.
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I teach EOS to the Entrepreneurial Operating System because it's a proven system.
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And there's a ton of acronyms in there.
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Military people love systems and acronyms because that's all the military is.
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It's one old big old system with 842 different acronyms that you need to know.
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The good news is there's so many of those acronyms, 30 years later, I still remember what they are.
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So it's an effective way to train things, right?
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Because, you know, in a stressful situation, everyone devolves down to their lowest level of training.
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And that includes leadership training.
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And you haven't given any of your people real practical leadership training and things get stressful.
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That's why things fall apart in a civilian business.
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So we both know the way to fix that.
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Get yourself some Business Sergeants, right?
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Get yourself some ex-military folks sprinkled in the organization that not only have that military
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experience, but, you know, the civilian business experience that's required.
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Or like I said, just find some superhumans and then train them what you do.
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Unless you're splitting atoms or you're in the nuclear fission, you know, neuroplasticity surgery
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business, that's probably not a good idea.
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But for 80% of the opportunities out there, you know, an exceptional leader that's been tested
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for decades is going to come in here and your most stressful day isn't even a blip on the radar
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screen of, of, of a semi crunchy day from their, their first life.
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So that's kind of the philosophy around it.
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And it's all, it's all civilian friendly.
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It's, like I said, basically on the team building and the commitment and the management dynamics
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of the most successful units.
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Tim Staton: So why do you think the engagement and commitment is so low?
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Chris Hallberg: Well, I don't know. I could, I could just go out on a limb and say this thing right here.
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If I just had to point to one thing, smartphones are definitely not making us smarter.
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Like, I get on my smartphone and I'm dumber every, every time I spend, you know, 20 minutes on it.
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So I think that this is a societal issue.
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America's got like two visions.
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One of them's a more traditional one is one is like a bunch of stuff that's really hard because
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it's not stated in facts or effective policy.
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It's just people are upset.
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So like, without getting too political, because I'm a libertarian, I'm purple, I can go blue
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or red based on, you know, what I think is good for the nation.
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And I, I actually put the country first instead of myself.
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And, and that's another thing. People are self-assured.
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Narcissistic douchebags are in the majority, not the minority.
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I think it's like societal issues.
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So what does that mean?
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It means the kids coming out of college today aren't as who-rah as they were five years ago
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or 10 years ago, certainly not 20 or 30 years ago.
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So the ability to find well-adjusted, well-raised, accountable, hardworking young people, their supply is diminishing, unfortunately.
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We need to turn that around.
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And the entitled, what are you going to do for me?
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My mom said I'm special and I deserve a raise.
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And that crowd, that's a big crowd.
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So the neat thing is, is there's, you know, highly productive, accountable, well-adjusted people are still being produced.
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It's just not 50, 60% of the workforce. It's 20, 30%.
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So that's why you have to have access to people that don't believe that other way.
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They believe it the old way.
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And I would argue, you know, 85, 90% of veterans, regardless of their political affiliation,
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are going to have the skills.
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Whereas 20, 30% of the general population is going to have the skills to basically lead and
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manage a company to greatness. So that's my observation.
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I don't know if that's a popular answer or if people agree, but that's kind of my quick take at it.
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We need to be better as citizens.
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And I think when that happens, then some of this normalcy will return to the workforce.
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But, you know, what's going on right now is just so polarizing.
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You know, the goal for my clients, I'm like, listen, the world's crazy.
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If your company is not crazy, people can come for eight to 10 hours a day and up is down, left is right.
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You know, 10 is greater than eight.
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And we can use the universal laws of physics, gravity, Newton's laws, any of those things.
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That is a respite from the dumb phones, from, you know, the network news that's really not reporting, right? They're programming.
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So, so I think really getting your stuff together and just having a place where we can be ourselves,
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but treat people with respect and kindness.
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And one thing I'd say all the time is, hey, we got assume positive intent when, when Jeff said
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that and Mary said that, that Dave got all upset.
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Like, I think they were both trying to help and your ego kind of took that as a challenge.
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And I saw you do that in front of everyone. Not that off.
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I need you to assume positive intent.
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You'll know when someone's intent isn't positive.
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And when that's the case, they'll stick out like a sore thumb and everyone else could say, "Yo,
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bro, what are you doing?" So, so you know what I'm saying?
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Like everyone, you can't be so easily offended or assume everything that comes out of someone's
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mouth isn't of efferent or a challenge to your direct line of thought or authority.
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So like when you're good at what you do in EOS, we call it GWC, get it wanted to have the capacity.
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That means you're the right person.
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If you share our core values, that means you're there in the right seat. Right people, right seats.
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Geez, once you get to your company in 90% that they'll clear out the last 10%.
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But my observation, Tim, is if you even have 20% that aren't the right people or in the right
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seats, that's, that's enough of a foothold from the team not to get to the end zone, to continue
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be forth and shorten it and get stuffed.
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So I think, you know, you know, if, if we the next one is like right people, wrong seat, that's usually management's fault.
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Hey, you, you know how to do that.
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Not really get in there.
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You're the best I got.
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And then a year later we're wondering why so-and-so's not wildly successful and we consider
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replacing them when all they were doing was helping the team out. Right.
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Third one, wrong person, right seat. That's the brilliant jerk.
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That's the, these are the toughest ones to get rid of because they're productive, they're profitable,
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but they, you can never build a world-class team or unicorns continue to chew through the fence.
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Even if you got unlimited skittles, they don't like being surrounded by jackasses or other four-legged
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animals that'll eat wood and metal and that kind of stuff.
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And then, and then lastly we get wrong person, wrong seat.
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They're fairly easy to spot, but I still find them out in the wild.
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You know what I mean?
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So like, I think for all the people that lead people and own businesses, listen into this podcast.
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Of your headcount, what percent, if nine out of ten of them, you're pinching yourself?
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I can't believe they work here. They are amazing. They're committed. The customers love them. The team loves them.
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They're willing to be uncomfortable for the greater good of the team. This is amazing.
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That's usually not how most people talk about their teams.
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When I first meet them, that's how they talk about their teams after two or three years of going through an engagement.
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The before picture is usually you know, 20, 30% carry the other, you know, 60, 70%.
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Like that's just what we see.
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And it doesn't have to be like that because you get to choose.
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So in, in closing on this point, Tim, a lot of people might think they're in the army because
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they hang on to people that aren't good and they somehow think that some commander has issued
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them this employee and they don't have a choice for two or three years.
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So they hang on to the wrong people for an extra two or three years.
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So the message is, no, it should be hard to get a job here and fairly easy to lose it.
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That, that is, I'm accurately describing any elite team, whether it's a sports team, an academic
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team, a military team, a business team.
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Usually the, the toughest teams to get on are the hardest teams to stay on.
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And I think if that's not how we're describing your culture, then perhaps you could be more
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intentional and curate nucleus of people, use personality assessments and other tools to carbon
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copy, to find out the skills or the wiring and then only interview people with the same wiring as your top performers.
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So you'll interview less, but you'll hire more.
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So that's what I teach my people.
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Because after a while, just look at a balloon or a bubble.
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We pop a hole in the bottom and we leak out either wrong people or wrong seats until it's, they're pretty much gone.
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And then we tape it back up and we're only putting in the people with the right wiring.
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Like that's essentially what we do.
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We, you know, we say who are the right people.
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We create values around them. We test them.
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We understand what it is that makes them us love them so much.
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And then we look at the antonyms, like hardworking, lazy, committed, mercenary, you know, kind, nice.
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Like I could, I could go on all day and just say, well, the values aren't exclusive. They're overly inclusive.
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So that leads me to my next point.
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You know, the commander didn't say they have to be here for three years.
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Like this person doesn't really want to be here or they don't fit or they have different beliefs
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about work and commitment and execution. And that's okay.
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I'm not trying to change people.
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I'm trying to find people that what we do is what they want.
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So when I find somebody doesn't want to do something at one of my clients, I'm like, well, bless your heart.
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At least you figured out you don't want to be here, right?
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You know, because if you did, you'd be doing this stuff.
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We wouldn't be having this conversation. So it's all right.
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We'll get you a nice little severance, write you a letter and help you find your unit because this isn't it.
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And when you hang on to the wrong people, they suffer.
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The team suffers, the company suffers, and someone else suffering at some other organization
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who would thrive here is also going to suffer because there's no opportunity for them to land
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because you hang on to the wrong people.
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So that's why we got to fail fast with people, right?
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Slow to hire, quick to fire.
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Those are two different chapters in the book because that's how you build an elite team.
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You say what it is and you find people that want that and you remove the people that don't want
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to be there for the veterans and the people that do. It's just that simple.
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Tim Staton: So what do you say to the people who are like, well, there's some myths out there that we find as facts.
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Like it's hard to find people, it's hard to hire people, and it's hard to get the right talent.
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What do you, what do you see out there?
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Chris Hallberg: Yeah, I mean, if you're doing it like everyone else, I would agree with that statement.
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I refuse to look at it like that though.
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And I won't allow my clients to look at it that way either way.
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Just the simple fact that your ads should be different.
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You should speak to your, the people that would thrive in your organization and you should offend
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and scare away the people that you don't want.
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You know, I, I talk about, well, this wasn't in the brochure.
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You ever got a, you know, a vacation thing and you see this beautiful ocean and palm trees and
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you get to your room and now you know why it's a hundred bucks a night.
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That's the dumpster, the garden view, not in the brochure.
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So I think when you read an ad and let's say we're going to muck stalls for a living, we're
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going to remove organic waste and re-upcycle it into the environment and we're going to allow
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00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:27,210
equine characters to live their best life.
422
00:27:27,270 --> 00:27:28,950
You're shoveling shit is what you're doing.
423
00:27:29,070 --> 00:27:33,990
If you have a dishwasher ad and you're like hydroelectric sanitation engineer, like I see it
424
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:37,950
in, in overselling these positions. Okay.
425
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:40,950
Like, you know what I mean?
426
00:27:41,130 --> 00:27:44,310
Like there's a couple, there's a couple examples.
427
00:27:44,370 --> 00:27:52,830
So why not just tell people, like, here's a profile of David, our most successful, whatever. David operates this way.
428
00:27:53,130 --> 00:27:56,910
Everybody looks up to, if you want to be like David or you're another David, apply.
429
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:57,870
You're going to love it here.
430
00:27:57,990 --> 00:28:03,210
If the Davids of the world intimidate you and cause you to have self-doubt and, and you're offended
431
00:28:03,270 --> 00:28:05,070
by Davids, like go away.
432
00:28:05,310 --> 00:28:07,950
Go, go, go saddle someone else's culture.
433
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:11,130
We're super clear on who's cool here and it ain't you.
434
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:14,850
So I think just speak, not, it's a, it's an ocean view.
435
00:28:14,970 --> 00:28:15,690
You know what I mean?
436
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:21,750
Like, I, I think really that's the issue is, is we're not honest about what we want so we get
437
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:25,170
what, what they want versus the curation.
438
00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:30,690
We talk, I use the word curated all the time because like if you have an art gallery or a museum
439
00:28:30,930 --> 00:28:37,590
with, you know, side of the road level pieces, no one's going to know, no other people are going
440
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:43,290
to put their art in your, your place or people are going to not feel great about the 35 bucks
441
00:28:43,410 --> 00:28:45,270
and, and you're going to have a two-star review.
442
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:49,890
If you go to the, the Louvre, for instance, in Paris, they make all the cool stuff there.
443
00:28:49,950 --> 00:28:51,630
And that's why it's expensive to go there.
444
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:57,210
And it's a, it's a bucket list item for many people because that museum is curated with the
445
00:28:58,110 --> 00:29:01,530
finest art in, you know, all the world, especially Europe.
446
00:29:01,650 --> 00:29:04,530
So like, what do you got? A roadside thing? What do you got?
447
00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:07,050
An alligator show with two, two-foot alligators?
448
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:07,770
You know what I mean?
449
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:08,610
Or like, you know what I mean?
450
00:29:08,670 --> 00:29:11,070
Are you wrestling 20-foot gators?
451
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:13,710
Like what, what kind of an alligator farm is this?
452
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:18,390
And I think that's a good example because they're good ones and they're like, wow, that's a
453
00:29:18,510 --> 00:29:20,670
quick way to lose 20 bucks. That wasn't worth it.
454
00:29:20,790 --> 00:29:29,070
So I, I think, I think it's being intentional and very honest, like, like in a, in a open kimono kind of way.
455
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:33,330
And I think the right people see that genuine a little humor.
456
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:38,550
I like to tell jokes a lot and, and just, you know, get when people are smiling, they're like, yeah, that's funny.
457
00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:39,570
Yeah, I get that too.
458
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:43,830
Like I joke all the time, like, hey, there's TV shows about the office and none of those shows
459
00:29:43,890 --> 00:29:45,270
are about how great the office is.
460
00:29:46,650 --> 00:29:47,490
You know what I'm saying?
461
00:29:47,910 --> 00:29:53,070
But none of it, it's about the dumb shit that happens in, in those environments.
462
00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:56,550
And that's funny unless you're actually on a team.
463
00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:58,650
And then it's not so funny, right?
464
00:29:58,770 --> 00:30:01,950
To, to, to know that, you know, we're, we all sit next to each other.
465
00:30:02,010 --> 00:30:03,330
I'm twice as productive as you.
466
00:30:03,450 --> 00:30:04,710
We make the same amount of money.
467
00:30:04,830 --> 00:30:06,990
Like, why do I care when you don't?
468
00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:08,550
Like, no one seems to notice.
469
00:30:08,790 --> 00:30:15,270
I like an organization where your contributions are measured, you know, are shared publicly.
470
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:19,530
I think if you can fail in silence, a lot of people have become pretty comfortable with that.
471
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:26,130
I think if we have an environment where we rate, rank, sort, and post the results, you know,
472
00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:30,450
sometimes, you know, a client has an accountability issue or a production issue and they're
473
00:30:30,450 --> 00:30:31,290
like, we don't know what to do.
474
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:36,450
I said, the first thing we're going to do is just say, how many guys are on the job site? Oh, 20. Great.
475
00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:39,570
Let's measure their performance for a week. Let's write all 20.
476
00:30:39,690 --> 00:30:42,570
Let's add them all up, divide them by 20, get the average.
477
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:47,370
And then wherever average is, I want you to write a dotted line and then put above average with
478
00:30:47,490 --> 00:30:49,290
an arrow on top and below average.
479
00:30:49,470 --> 00:30:50,670
And I just want you to post it.
480
00:30:50,670 --> 00:30:52,710
That's all I want you to do. That's it.
481
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:55,890
In many cases, all we do is just put the result down.
482
00:30:56,010 --> 00:30:59,250
The guy walking around like he owns the place a second from the bottom.
483
00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:02,250
Have you seen your number? Like, ooh, shrinkage. All right.
484
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:04,530
They, oh, they're coming in early. They're staying late.
485
00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:07,110
Like, you're going to lose my man card with that.
486
00:31:07,170 --> 00:31:08,190
Like, I had no idea.
487
00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:14,670
So like, so many times I've created, I've changed a culture just by, just by defining what awesome
488
00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:17,610
is and then measuring who's awesome and who's not.
489
00:31:17,670 --> 00:31:23,070
Because culturally, most of the people that were difficult were on the bottom and some of the
490
00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:30,510
new people that aren't given respect or are diminished because of their lack of seniority are
491
00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:34,290
in first, third, fourth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth place.
492
00:31:34,350 --> 00:31:38,370
So it's like, okay, let's, let's let the egos match the scoreboard.
493
00:31:38,790 --> 00:31:41,550
And that's why professional sports is, is a great example.
494
00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:43,410
I just actually watched Moneyball last night.
495
00:31:43,470 --> 00:31:44,670
I talk about it all the time.
496
00:31:44,730 --> 00:31:45,570
It was a couple of clips.
497
00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:49,650
I didn't watch the whole movie, but like, you should be playing Moneyball at your company because
498
00:31:50,130 --> 00:31:52,170
that's really what a great scorecard is.
499
00:31:52,590 --> 00:31:56,490
And how do you know if you got an all-star player or just someone who goes to the gym all the time?
500
00:31:56,550 --> 00:32:03,150
Because they kind of look the same, but one bats 500 and the other can't hit the ball, the fastball at all. No, absolutely.
501
00:32:03,270 --> 00:32:07,470
And I'm glad that you offered up that piece of advice because it shows about practicality.
502
00:32:07,710 --> 00:32:11,850
And like you offered up a really good tangible piece of advice of kind of like how to improve
503
00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:14,910
a culture just by, are you above average or below average?
504
00:32:14,970 --> 00:32:17,310
And then publicly, you know, let people know where they stand.
505
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:19,830
I, I love that on how you put that out there.
506
00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:27,810
And I was wondering, what is like one piece of fundamental leadership advice that you absolutely disagree with? Gosh. Yeah.
507
00:32:27,870 --> 00:32:29,730
If you just work hard, everything will be okay.
508
00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:32,490
You can work hard on the wrong stuff and get nowhere.
509
00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:35,970
You can work hard to try to fix a broken human.
510
00:32:36,030 --> 00:32:41,910
That's not like, so back to what I'm saying, like our job isn't to fix broken humans. That's impossible.
511
00:32:42,030 --> 00:32:48,210
That, that's inner work and it's years and maybe some plant medicine to break through your stuff.
512
00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:51,930
I don't know, something extreme or 20 years of talk therapy. I don't know.
513
00:32:52,110 --> 00:32:59,490
But when you are able to detect and find people that have the goods and just make it attractive
514
00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:03,990
and just have them come right in, those people require almost no management.
515
00:33:04,290 --> 00:33:09,450
Like, I think that's kind of, again, the risk of being repetitive. It's that important.
516
00:33:09,570 --> 00:33:11,310
You can't fix broken people.
517
00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:14,250
That came from years of wherever they came from.
518
00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:19,350
The people are products of their environment, the families, the thoughts, the words, the rules.
519
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:21,570
Like these are things outside of your control.
520
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:27,810
So I think humans are pretty much fully baked personality-wise by what, 15, 17 years old.
521
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:33,270
Like you are just an older, better looking of, you know, young Tim Staton. So, so, right.
522
00:33:33,450 --> 00:33:38,190
And, and that being the case, that's why we just, what I was saying before, you just have to
523
00:33:38,610 --> 00:33:41,910
find people that are, are wired like your people are.
524
00:33:41,970 --> 00:33:47,310
And that's by position, because every position in the company, like a sport, not unlike a sports
525
00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:51,270
team, has a specialist role and a role to play.
526
00:33:51,390 --> 00:33:55,050
So just because you're great at first base doesn't mean you're going to be an awesome shortstop.
527
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:59,970
Just because you're good at sales doesn't mean you're going to be great at the detail work of finance or, or HR.
528
00:34:00,270 --> 00:34:07,410
So that's why if we have art and science and we bring both of those to the equation, you can
529
00:34:08,010 --> 00:34:13,710
curate a team of, you know, position players who are all world-class and you can win the World
530
00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:19,170
Series in business, which is 30, 40% EBITDA, best place to work award, waiting list to work
531
00:34:19,470 --> 00:34:23,490
here, respect, admiration, and love of, of your, your peers in your industry.
532
00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:27,690
Like, you know, that's what you get when you put this all together.
533
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:32,190
Tim Staton: That's awesome. So is there anything, Chris, that we didn't talk about that you're like, you
534
00:34:32,250 --> 00:34:35,010
know what, before we go, I just want to talk about this one thing.
535
00:34:35,310 --> 00:34:39,330
Chris Hallberg: No, I, I would say there's only one thing, boy.
536
00:34:39,390 --> 00:34:42,330
Like, tell you what I think having, you got to have some tools, right?
537
00:34:42,450 --> 00:34:44,910
And you gotta, you gotta have some methodology.
538
00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:50,250
Like if you're not on an operating system, you should really look at, say, EOS or one of the other ones.
539
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:54,690
I don't want to be too salesy, but 12-year EOS guy and the stuff works.
540
00:34:54,810 --> 00:35:00,450
I also have this software tool, Go Expand, and it's a licensed tool that brings a lot of my
541
00:35:00,570 --> 00:35:03,330
coaching and militaristic right person, right seat.
542
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:09,690
So what I've done with that and why that's important is you have to have a tool that isn't friends with anyone.
543
00:35:09,870 --> 00:35:11,130
It just tells the truth.
544
00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:15,630
So we create like right people, right seats in a, in a scatter plot.
545
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:18,690
So what you need to have is relativity.
546
00:35:18,810 --> 00:35:24,510
If, if I'm a big fan of Tim and someone else isn't, well, I, I think he's the right person that's right seat.
547
00:35:24,570 --> 00:35:25,290
Well, I don't think he does.
548
00:35:25,470 --> 00:35:27,450
Well, I think he does. It's very subjective.
549
00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:35,190
So when I have a scatter plot of performance, X-axis left to right and Y-axis up and down, right
550
00:35:35,370 --> 00:35:39,270
person and then right seat. So performance and alignment.
551
00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:45,510
So if Tim Staton is right here and someone else that they think is totally the right person
552
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:50,070
in the right seat is in a lower position than you, how could that be true? See what?
553
00:35:50,070 --> 00:35:55,050
Now it's not, you know, he doesn't laugh at my dad jokes, you know, his or his dad jokes are better.
554
00:35:55,170 --> 00:36:00,090
You know, there could be some jelly jelliness there, hatred, you know, like haters are going to hate.
555
00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:05,970
My point is if we all have the same rules and we've set the matrix and we're all accountable
556
00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:12,930
to the same thing, how could Tim be the wrong person in the wrong seat if, if, if you think Bob Johnson is?
557
00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:19,050
Because I can show you with data and the, this plot, you know, which is not a feeling.
558
00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:22,230
Tim is over here, Dave is right there. End of discussion.
559
00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:26,250
Either the numbers are wrong or Dave is wrong or you know what I mean?
560
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:32,490
So like, that's why I think having this methodology without like a system and then a way to
561
00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:35,970
track it can be dangerous and it doesn't go anywhere.
562
00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:41,430
So I apologize for the shameless pitch there, but you know, whether it's that or something else,
563
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:46,410
you got to have a system and you got to have a tool to see it every day because without that
564
00:36:46,650 --> 00:36:52,650
level of visibility and connectivity, all the, all this good stuff just shrinks into the background as everyone knows.
565
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:56,130
Tim Staton: No, absolutely. And, and I really love everything that you brought today.
566
00:36:56,250 --> 00:37:02,550
The practicality of it, you know, the honesty of, you know, you can't fix everybody, you can't fix broken people.
567
00:37:02,670 --> 00:37:03,990
You got to have good leaders.
568
00:37:04,050 --> 00:37:09,150
And I really love your approach of exclusivity of, you know, it's got to be hard to get here
569
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:10,590
and easy to get fired here.
570
00:37:10,830 --> 00:37:12,330
Love everything that you brought together today.
571
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:15,330
So if you're watching this and you're listening to this and you like what Chris had to say,
572
00:37:15,450 --> 00:37:19,350
go in the description, you're going to find the link to everything that he has available.
573
00:37:19,350 --> 00:37:22,710
So you can reach out to him and his team and get plugged to him and to him.
574
00:37:22,770 --> 00:37:24,450
So Chris, thanks for being on the show.
575
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:26,310
Chris Hallberg: Thanks for having me, Tim. I really enjoyed it.
576
00:37:26,850 --> 00:37:30,510
Tim Staton: As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
577
00:37:30,510 --> 00:37:31,830
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
578
00:37:31,890 --> 00:37:34,590
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
579
00:37:34,590 --> 00:37:39,210
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
580
00:37:39,330 --> 00:37:43,350
If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
581
00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:48,390
bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode, you'll
582
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:50,970
be alerted, please go ahead and do all that before you go.
583
00:37:51,030 --> 00:37:54,750
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
584
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:58,890
spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
585
00:37:59,130 --> 00:38:01,170
here today, but may not have found our show yet.
586
00:38:01,290 --> 00:38:04,770
Again, thanks for stopping by. I'm Tim Staton. Stay to the obvious.