WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:40.159
I think we can all relate to that closet that has just gotten completely out of hand in our house. Right at first, you start out and you're like, quickly putting clothes away one day after you do laundry, and you don't, you know, quite put things where they're supposed to go. So, you know, there are a couple of things out of place. Then there's that sweater that needs to go to their dry cleaner, or a jacket that you meant to return, and you kind of shove them in the back. And then there's that camera bag that you might use again someday. It's not your primary one, but you're not quite ready to part with it anyway. Fast forward a few months or a year, and suddenly that closet is an avalanche.
00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:53.859
Every time that you try to open the door right, it feels stressful. You're shoving stuff in, you're closing it fast, and you're promising yourself that you're going to get around to dealing with this at some point.
00:00:48.939 --> 00:02:22.219
And then one day, you get to a place where you need something that's in that closet, and it's all the way in the back, and you basically have to deconstruct the closet in order to find that thing, it takes way more time, whatever. And you're like, that's it. Running a business without solid systems feels exactly like that. It feels like the closet that is just overflowing, and maybe you can sort of manage it. And then at some point, you hit that breaking point. At first there's, you know, one or two manual tasks that you're doing, a client email here, an invoice there, but before you know it, you're spending more time managing the mess than you are actually doing the work that you love. And the worst part is, you know, something needs to change, but figuring out what to keep, what to toss, how to Marie Kondo, that mess can feel really overwhelming. That is why today's episode is all about systems, not the flashy kind that promise to you know, automate your entire life, but the kind that actually help you run your business in a sustainable, client friendly, human way, and to walk us through that, I am talking with Melissa rich, a former photographer turned system strategist who knows firsthand how the right automations can free up hours of time without making your business feel robotic. So whether your business closet needs a quick tidy up or a full on overhaul, this conversation is going to help you see how small systems can make a big, big difference.
00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:38.840
Let's get into it. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way.
00:02:39.500 --> 00:02:42.340
Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard.
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:53.979
You can do it, and I can show you how welcome to this can't be that hard. I'm super excited to have you on the show today. How are you? I am so well,
00:02:53.979 --> 00:02:57.460
and I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Oh my gosh.
00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:34.699
Oh no. This, as I was saying before, I feel like when you reached out and you were talking about what you what we're going to be talking about today, I was like, yes, yes, yes. Like, just nodding my head along, because this is basically my 100% jam. And I feel like everybody here has heard me talk about this a million times, I always appreciate having some outside support and other people's perspective on this. So before we dive in to all things systems and automation, talk or tell us a little bit about who you are, your backstory in the photography industry, and kind of what you're doing these days, sure.
00:03:34.699 --> 00:04:09.300
So present view, I am a Systems and workflow consultant, right? So I help photographers and creatives get their back end of their business sorted out in their CRM, their project management tool and other pieces, right? I have been previously a wedding photographer with my husband for the last 16 years. So we did the side hustle thing while we were working full time jobs, and then went full time and got super overwhelmed, right, right? And honestly, when we started our business, I didn't even know how to shoot. I was just running the back end of the business. I had to teach myself how to shoot, right? And so the pandemic hit.
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:23.480
We had a wedding photography business and a corporate event photography business, and it just knocked us out to be honest with you, yeah. And so in my previous previous life, I had worked for a large healthcare IT company on the process improvement team, right? Yeah.
00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:58.959
So that's where I fell in love with, like, sticky notes and workflows and all of those amazing things. And so the pandemic hit, and I started doing work as a VA, and I was like, Man, I really love being in the back end again and creating these systems and making life easier for my clients. And so that's how my business was born, so here we are what like five years later, right? Yeah, and that's what I get to do full time. I get to help small business owners enjoy their business again by making the back end the thing that nobody wants to do easier and more fulfilling. And it's just, I love it. It's so nerdy, but I love it.
00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:13.920
I. Yeah, okay, well, I'm gonna take a quick detour and ask a little bit about So when was the last time you were working in the IT industry? Since there was, you know, obviously, there was many years of photographing and all that sort of
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:19.680
stuff. Oh my gosh, I left my full time job in October of 2014,
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:50.439
okay, so yeah, well, no, the reason that I asked that is that I imagine that between then and when you started working as a VA and even, I mean, I guess you were watching this sort of from a user perspective in the, you know, during your photography business, but tell me a little bit about what has changed from 2014 to now in terms of what's available on the on the systems side of things, oh
00:05:50.439 --> 00:06:08.279
my gosh, the accessibility I feel like, and the variety of platforms, if you will. Our first CRM was an Excel sheet right right after we moved from the graph on the wall, you know what I mean, we moved to an Excel sheet, and then we moved to studio ninja, which didn't connect anything, right, right?
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:33.199
And so now platforms, you can access them from your phone. You can do anything from your phone that you could have done and that I had to do from that desktop app right there. The automation factor has just increased substantially, the user experience, the things that you can do in a CRM now to like, branded it, make it user friendly and like, make it feel like it's part of your website.
00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:53.379
And that overall experience and the customization factor, yeah, like, the customizations are just that, that in itself, the automations don't feel robotic anymore. They don't feel cold and like it's an automation. You can really personalize it and judge it up so that it's like, Wow, that feels like it's actually an email that she sat down and wrote and not just an automated thing. You know,
00:06:53.379 --> 00:07:56.439
yeah, when I first got a CRM, I started out with Tave, which at the time, and I think it was actually right around 2014 I'm pretty sure it was 2014 and I didn't know anything about CRMs. I didn't know what was possible. I remember reading in their documentation about automation and just being like, that's for somebody who's more tech savvy than me. So I really wasn't doing much with automations. And it was funny, you know, later, as I became not only more comfortable, but like, addicted to those kinds of things and figuring out how I could create, you know, right, an automated process where I once had to push the button, I remember looking back and being like, Oh, so many things that I just wasn't even willing to look at. But I think that the you like, the user interface on all that stuff has just gotten so much easier, cleaner, better. Tave was very much, and I haven't seen it recently. I haven't seen the back end, but it was, it was kind of a developers. CRM, like you really. It had tons of power, but you had to know how to control that,
00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:05.759
right? I feel like there are so many platforms now that you can hop in and within an hour, you can get something sent out if you need to, or set up, or that kind of thing. Tave.
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:33.559
So admittedly, because I loved the back end of the business, I platform hopped, which I do not recommend, right? But, like, every two years, oh, let's try this. Let's try this. Let's try this. Yeah, I loved Tave, like it in the I think that you would be I was in it a couple weeks ago, to be honest with you, it's still one of my favorites. But the that interface, that smoothness, that we're gonna make it as easy as we can for you to get up and running, right? I love, I think that that's so smart.
00:08:34.038 --> 00:08:37.038
Yeah, so good.
00:08:34.038 --> 00:08:57.339
Okay, that was a sidetrack. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, now that I know the backpack story, because I didn't know the it part, I would love to hear a little bit about when you got into doing the VA thing and everything else. What was it that made you decide I'm going to go specifically in on systems consulting. I
00:08:57.460 --> 00:09:11.399
loved the ease that it could bring to people, and so I am an oldest daughter, I am a millennial. I am a people pleaser, recovery and perfectionist type A all of those things that you hear about that that is me. Hello, yeah.
00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.419
And so I've always just wanted to help make people's lives better, right? And so for a long time, I thought that meant working in a nonprofit. But the more that I did the VA work, the more that I was like, no, these beautiful, creative minds don't know how to function like this.
00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.419
And I can live in both worlds.
00:09:29.539 --> 00:10:09.659
My husband taught me that he he is his creative brain, Annemie is just like, You know what I mean? He taught me how to work with anybody and so, but his brain didn't know how to work in systems. And so helping him and helping us get our business to the point where it was that it was running smoothly so we could enjoy life and focus on the things we wanted to I could replicate that with my clients, yeah, right. And we could make that easier. And I could take this big, like, I call it, like a big bowl of wet spaghetti noodles. It's just all tangled up, you know what? I. Mean, so often that's how business owners feel, that systems are and I take them and I string them out and lay them out in a nice, neat order so it actually looks like something and functions, and that makes their lives easier.
00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:45.220
As a result, they are able to do more and run their dream business and, like, live their dang life, which is what we all want to do. We don't set out to like, we don't start photography businesses because we want to run a business. We start photography businesses because we want to take pictures ultimately. And it lets them, yeah, it lets them do that. It lets me take their beautiful, creative, creativeness and scale it for them so they can grow the way they want to. And there's just something so beautiful about helping other people reach their dreams that I just love. I know that sounds corny.
00:10:46.419 --> 00:11:15.539
Nope, it sounds highly relatable. Corny though it may be, I feel the same way, and that's amazing. Okay, so I love this visual of the bowl of spaghetti, because it totally feels like that. Sometimes there's just this like nest of things and you have no idea how you're gonna disentangle everything. So I imagine that you have kind of a framework, a system that you start with. What do we start with? Like, what are the core systems that you feel like every photographer needs to have in place?
00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:25.519
Oh, my gosh. Well, at its core, I feel like every photographer needs to have an autoresponder turned on, and that sounds I say autoresponder.
00:11:22.519 --> 00:12:02.820
And people are like, Oh, that sounds cool, robotic and ugly and not nice. You know what I mean? I want to be personal, and I want to be high, touched, and I want them to know that it's actually me, right? But also in the photography industry, especially for wedding photographers or engagement photographers or proposal photographers, right? You have to get back to get back to your client, and you have to get back to them fast. And you don't want to be attached to your phone like you don't want to be sitting at your kid's soccer game on your phone replying to a client when a lead comes in. You know what I mean? Just that's not how you want to live your life, I'm assuming anyway. And so so that autoresponder, it goes out as soon as soon as they fill out your lead capture form.
00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:12.539
And it doesn't have to be anything more than Hey, I'm so excited. Your message came through. I'm checking my calendar. I'll get back to you within 24 hours, 48 hours, whatever. Let's connect here.
00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:54.519
Maybe it's Instagram. Maybe it's somewhere else. You know what I mean, two sentences. It's the easiest thing to set up, but it makes such a big difference, because then it gets you back in your client's inbox while they are hot and excited and so ready to work with you, you know what I mean, and then that gives them another touch point of how to find you as well, too. So I love doing that autoresponder, and it's easy to set up like even, even if you're building a workflow, and that's the only thing you have in that workflow that's automated, and nothing else lives there that is something, and you're doing better than you were before, because you're increasing the odds that that client's gonna book you. You're getting back to them quicker, and that's gonna help you and keep them excited as well, too.
00:12:55.059 --> 00:13:12.059
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it really is, you know, I think that for a long time, hopefully this is going away. But I think for a long time, there were photographers who viewed responding too fast as like seeming too eager, seeming too available, whatever.
00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:37.580
And I you know, this is not dating. We are not playing mind games. Somebody reaches out to you because they are actively looking for a solution to whatever their specific problem is, or, you know, whatever their photography need is, and that quick response and sort of letting them know that their form came through and that you're on it is, it's just good customer service, and it sort of sets the expectation that you're going to be quick to respond, which is
00:13:37.580 --> 00:13:52.539
a good thing. It really is. And honestly, like as a user, I mean, I personally have set inquiry forms in and then gotten nothing back, and it's like, yeah, did that actually go through? Do I need to email them? You know what I mean? And there's no worse feeling than that as the client.
00:13:52.539 --> 00:14:21.379
So like, start that client experience, like you said, set that expectation from the very get go, and that's going to set you up for more success down the long run, in the long run. So I love that. Love, love, love that autoresponder. Plus, here's the thing we talked about this a little bit earlier. It doesn't have to sound robotic. It doesn't have to sound automated like the key to making any automation feel like you and feel human is writing it like you would talk to somebody sure you know, don't just send it.
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:21.379
Hey, I got your message. Thanks.
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:33.080
Email, that sounds robotic, right? Oh my gosh. I'm so excited you you reached up a BU, you know what I mean? Yeah, write the email how you would talk to somebody in person, and that's going to feel like that genuine connection that you want
00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:45.820
to create amazing. Okay, so lead magnet, or lead man management, not magnet is it sort of that first spaghetti strand that we pull out of the bowl? Yes. What comes next? I
00:14:45.820 --> 00:15:04.860
love a pre session email, right? And again, even if this is the only email that you have set up in a workflow, it's going to make a world of difference for use. Send it out a week, a few days, whatever feels good to you before your session. And. Yes, but in this email, you want to prep your client for their session, what they can expect, right? Maybe.
00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:07.320
And I'm not saying it has to include all the things, right?
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:18.120
It can be as simple as, hey, Annemie, I'm so excited to see you on Friday at 6pm here's where we're starting. Bring these things, right? You also, though, can add to it, right?
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:23.720
Like add a prep guide, what to expect, how to prepare your kids. Maybe bring some snacks.
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:35.059
We're going to start here, and then walk around as much detail as you want to, but it sets the expectation for your client. And honestly, like I love having phone calls with clients too.
00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:58.419
Nothing, it doesn't always soak in verbally. So like using this email to set those expectations of what they are going to experience while they're with you, and what they need to bring and how to prepare. It just makes your job easier, and it helps set the session up for more success. It helps them have a better experience with you as well, too. You know what I mean?
00:15:55.480 --> 00:16:01.259
Every photographer is different, right? And there are some that are like, bring all the props.
00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:09.480
And if that's your thing, put that in the email. If other people are like, I hate props, put that in your email. That way they're not bringing the whole trunk full of props with them.
00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:17.100
You know what I mean? But this is just really like, I want you to have a successful session.
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:19.799
You as the client, right? I need to make sure that I do my job.
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:22.700
Well, here's what I need you to know so that both of those things can happen. That's all that that email
00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:27.740
is, yeah, yeah.
00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:39.200
I'm a big fan of breaking, you know, obviously a lot of people have prep guides that they send out as soon as somebody books, but let's say that that's a month or two before you actually work with them. Or, if you're a wedding photographer, that could be a year, you know, in advance.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:17:16.799
So I feel like that client communication system. Obviously there's like the reminder email a couple of days before the session itself. But like, you can take an entire prep guide and break it up into little, you know, emails that go out every couple of weeks, being like, Hey, just wanted to check in here. You know, today's topic is whatever, and it again, it's just a touch point. It helps maintain that excitement that they felt when they first booked with you. So it ends up not only having your client show up better prepared, but also feeling more connected to you.
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.799
So I love
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:31.640
that absolutely for sure. And again, it doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be over the top like it does not. One big misconception that a lot of photographers think of have about systems is that it has to be perfect in this big, beautiful thing from the get go.
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:43.539
This is just one thing that you can do that's simple, that will take you an hour top. So let's be realistic, to put into place to just really make your life easier and make your clients experience better.
00:17:43.539 --> 00:18:02.400
Yeah, and it can grow and expand. You can, you know, I know that you said in the beginning you're a perfectionist, and I tend to be that as well. So I can get caught like deer in the headlights with the well, if I don't have the whole thing set up, then it's not worth, you know, kind of getting it going.
00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:13.019
I have retrained my brain on that, because it is true. You start with one thing, and then you start to see, like, Oh, I think this would, it would work even better if I added in this, you know, the second thing, or this third thing. Oh, my
00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:17.279
gosh, absolutely, start with what you've got. I always like to say, yeah, yeah.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.319
Okay. So in terms of the systems themselves.
00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:29.960
We talked about lead management, we've talked about client communication, anything else that you're like. This is one of the basics, one of the core systems that people need. Let's
00:18:29.960 --> 00:19:00.240
talk about a scheduling tool for a minute, if we can. Yes, please. So this is one, believe it or not. This is one of the feature slash tools that I get the biggest pushback on when it comes to talking with clients. They could be, I work with all kinds of creatives, right? So it should be a photographer. It could be, I work with a lady who makes cat toys, and she also pushes back on the scheduler, right? So it's not a photographer thing only, but you got it makes your it makes your life so much easier.
00:18:56.619 --> 00:19:13.380
Are you kidding? And let's again. Let's talk about the client experience. When you go to book an appointment with somebody, how frustrated do you get that you can't do it online, or that you can't just do it in a one, two click, right? Right?
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:25.640
That not bad example, but an example. I'm my therapist. I have to schedule manually with her. There's not an online calendar, and every time I write this is so frustrating. Why is this not an online thing, right?
00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:52.059
And so incorporating the scheduler, it does a couple of things, right? It increases that client experience. Using a scheduler does not make it cold or a weird experience for your clients, if anything, it's decreasing the amount of time that it's takes gonna take for them to schedule that appointment and that uncertainty and that, what if we can't make it work? And what if you know what I mean, all of those things that happen, right? Yeah,
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.180
reducing friction at every possible turn.
00:19:55.240 --> 00:20:06.839
If somebody wants to call and like, compare calendars verbally with you, you know, right? Maybe have that available. But if somebody doesn't want to and just wants to see if you're available on the Saturday that their family is going to be in
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.480
town, right?
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:29.900
Exactly, I mean, and honestly, it takes a minimum of what, at least four emails to schedule a meeting. You figure that's five to 10 minutes writing each email, depending on what goes into it, right? You have to send the availability and ask for the meeting, then you're waiting, and then the client has to say, No, I'm not available. Then I'm available here. And you're like, Okay, well, maybe we can make that way. You know what? I mean?
00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:52.420
Like, it's just yeah. So a lot of people push back on that, and they push back on that because, but I don't want them to have access to my calendar, and I don't know when I'm going to be available and but what about my kids soccer game and things changing? But life happens absolutely, and I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but by using a calendar, you're making your life easier, because then it's all automated, which reduces the risk of human error.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:21:00.779
Let's talk about that for a minute, right? Which means you're not going to mess up or double book, because your calendar system is preventing that from happening, right? So
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:07.500
let's just have address the meta conversation that I imagine is happening in your mind behind this as well.
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:59.140
So you, when I'm you know, we decided that you were coming on the show, I sent you a calendar link for you to find a spot and book it, and you booked a time with me yesterday, and then the day before, I looked at my calendar and was like, Oh, I can't guarantee that I'm gonna be at my desk and ready, because I had a doctor appointment, like in the time slot right before that. So that's a perfect example of so I just to finish that, I reached out to you said, like, hey, is there any way that you can push by 30 minutes? Or maybe we can shift by a day. So here we are, but the the point is like, Yeah, I had put the doctor appointment on my calendar. I hadn't put enough padding or margin in there, because a doctor appointment is an unusual thing in my scout in my calendar, but it still got all of the steps taken care of.
00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:19.920
You had the link for the meeting. You had all of the, like, automated pre, you know, like, prep emails about, like, make sure you have this kind of microphone and etc, etc. You had all that stuff. All we needed to do was me reach out and be like, Hey, sorry about that little error on the calendar. Let's move. No big deal, but it takes so much of the work away,
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:26.180
right? It really does. And it makes you human as well, too. You know what I mean?
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:29.599
Like, I didn't care at all. Then we had to reschedule. I was like, wow, okay, we can do that.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:34.279
Yeah, absolutely, that's not, yeah, your clients not going to care either if you're trying to serve them better and easier.
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:46.779
And, like you said, reduce that friction. Some photographers, like I it depends on their amount, the amount of automation that they want. I always encourage you to use a scheduler for meetings, right?
00:22:44.259 --> 00:23:03.599
Consultations, that kind of thing. Some photographers like to go so far as to use it for scheduling sessions, which, honestly, I also love because, again, that makes it so much easier. There's no back and forth or anything like that. And then it kicks off that automation, those reminders, everything seamlessly for you.
00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:17.579
It just such a such a big thing, like such a, such a necessary tool, that I understand can be scary, but I think the risk outweighs the scare factor, or the reward outweighs the scare
00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:30.740
benefit. Yeah, totally so when somebody is new to systems and they set things up, inevitably, invariably, they are going to set things up that.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:55.779
I'm not going to say they're wrong, but they may be able to be improved in the future, or they may decide to, like change things up. How do you recommend that somebody who maybe has some systems. I mean, we all have some kind of system, even if it's a really messy system. How does one go about evaluating whether their current systems are kind of helping them, hurting them, not serving them to their full
00:23:55.779 --> 00:24:04.019
potential? Oh my gosh. I love this question, and I feel it in my soul, because a few weeks ago, I actually went through and redid did the same thing on my own systems, right?
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:16.380
So this is a recent thing for me to do in my business as well, too. So first of all, you want to look to see where there's friction, right? Where are clients not getting things done that you need them to get done.
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:25.519
Where are you having to go in and consistently manually updating thing, update things, right? Is there an email that you constantly skip over and then write it manually, right?
00:24:22.819 --> 00:24:41.500
Is there a link that you constantly have to update that kind of thing, right? Make a list of that and like, write that down. That's the first thing you need to update. But also something that we don't talk about enough, I feel like, is going to be the KPIs that are attached to your systems, right?
00:24:38.539 --> 00:24:49.240
The key performance indicators, this is going to come in handy, especially for your inquiry workflows, right? Are leads responding to your first email?
00:24:49.359 --> 00:25:01.200
Are they booking a call in that first email? Are they responding to that second Are they not? If leads aren't responding to that first email, that's a sign that you might need to go back in and update that email and tweak it.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:26:05.339
And update that part of your system, right? Like, you need to look to see what's working and what's not, where the friction is. If clients still have questions or honest, like, honestly, what's taking up the most amount of your time you're consistently having to redo, right? Like, that's, that's, that's the key. And then you take that one step at a time, and you update those pieces one step at a time, right? I worked with a wedding photographer last week, and we had previously done her systems, and we were doing some updates, right? And she was like, Well, I'm having these quick turnaround weddings that my big wedding workflow just doesn't work for. I was like, okay, she's like, she's like, I found that I'm skipping this email and this doesn't pertain, and that doesn't pertain, and so it's just adding more manual work on the back end. And so we created a workflow specifically for wedding clients who book in under two months, right? Big difference from the wedding clients who book in a year, yeah, but it takes paying attention and knowing this isn't working for this specific client. Maybe I need to set up this own thing over here to to figure out what you need to update, and everything like that, and then it's
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:09.240
just piece by piece.
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:09.240
Like, piece by
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:23.660
piece, yeah, and I, I feel like, you know, the having those CEO days where you're like, I am not going to edit any photos, I am not going to write any client emails, unless I am writing a template.
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:43.180
You know, a client email template those days can be so powerful. And honestly, one of the big reasons that I am such an advocate for kind of getting away from running your business in an Excel spreadsheet or, you know, oh well, I've got a really robust checklist that I use and that that works fine for me.
00:26:40.359 --> 00:27:26.480
It's not that I don't think those things can work, but what those things don't do is give you easy access to data about how things are working and you're absolutely right, like if you can look at your CRM and see that most people book after your third email, or you know, or most people who ghost, ghost, you know, because of X, Y and Z, or whatever the case may be, being able to look specifically at where those things are happening means that you can improve that, or you can take something out beforehand. You can react with actual intention, as opposed to just guessing what might be getting people stuck.
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:26.480
Oh
00:27:26.480 --> 00:28:11.940
my gosh, absolutely in my own business, I had a place recently where I realized my clients were getting stuck, and I was like, dang, Melissa, you're the systems person. This is not right that people are getting stuck in your system. And so I had to go back and revamp everything and change that, not everything, but, like, revamp that specific spot, because it was creating a frustrating point for my clients, and I want it to be easy to work with me like the same thing is true for photographers. Where are your clients getting stuck? If it's figuring out outfits, okay, what can we do to help them figure it out? Out outfits? What can we do so that their kids show up happy? What can we do to help prepare them for this. You know what I mean? Like, it's just increasing and upping that client experience, but also at the same time making your life easier, because your job is going to be easier on the flip side.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.599
Yeah, totally.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:28.099
So knowing what I now know about your background in systems, and then the fact that you're working with your husband in your photography business, and, of course, I know that you were slash are a simple Sales User.
00:28:28.339 --> 00:28:45.700
I'm dying to hear how a systems person, like a legit, well trained systems person, first of all, I'm honored that you, you know, signed up for the course and like, decided to implement that, but I would love to hear, sort of your systems take on simple sales.
00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:57.940
I loved it to be honest with you, and it was, and it was because, like, here's the thing we as photographers, we went full time, which means we need to make more money, right?
00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:28.940
How do you do that? Well, you sell things to your clients, right? Okay, to be honest with you, I am not a salesperson. It makes me super uncomfortable saying, even as a photographer, saying prices out loud to my clients, I was like, it's gonna be this much money to invest in your wedding day, you know what I mean? And so then the idea of trying to sell them more after the fact, I was like, oh my god, I can't do this. I just need somebody to teach me how to do this. Because I don't know, okay, I don't know what to say, because I'm awkward and like, I can set the automations up.
00:29:25.339 --> 00:29:58.119
That's the easy part, right? But it's the how do I do this? What do I say, right? And so I loved it, because you told me exactly what to say and when to say it, and it worked. Okay, not that I doubted the system or you, but like, I doubted myself. And yeah, as I talked to photographers, I talked to a photographer in the second year of business the other day, and she was like, I was like, we were talking about her systems and what she wanted to do. And I was like, are you doing IPs?
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:29.000
She's like, what's IPs? I said, Oh, it's in person sales. She goes, oh. Oh, like selling prints, I said, Yes, she goes. I have no idea how to do that, but I wish I could, because I need to make more money. Oh, okay, Katie, let's go down this path, right? Yeah, you just don't know. And simple sales teaches you how to do that. But there's also, like the mindset work that you include as well too, that is so important and made such a big difference. And then there's just the implementation. You made it, step one, step two, step three. I was like, okay, I can do this. You know, I
00:30:29.059 --> 00:30:29.900
can do stuff,
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.319
right? Exactly.
00:30:30.440 --> 00:31:05.460
And like, like, to be honest, I've worked with photographers who have bought simple sales, and they're like, I bought this because I know that I need it. I was like, Do you want some help setting it up? Yes, please. You know you know what I mean, right? And so it makes the biggest difference. It made you made us so much money. Let me just say that you made us so much money. I like, I tell everybody about it if they haven't used it, because it's just incredible. And I'm not just saying that because I'm here, right? Like, let's say that. I'm saying that because it actually worked for my business, and you made it easy and clear, and I would buy it was the best investment.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:07.619
Honestly, thanks.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:45.579
I Yeah. I mean, that's obviously, it's amazing to hear, and I always love hearing about artists making more money. But I do think that there is that intersection of like, okay, so here's some words you can say, emails you can send. You know, the way that you break down the pricing and the this, that and the other, but it is also this systematic element of it, where you are dripping things out piece by piece, or you're not, you know, overwhelming your potential client with too much information to begin with. You're giving them enough so that they can decide whether they want to take that next step and reach out or have a conversation or whatever,
00:31:45.579 --> 00:32:17.339
right? And honestly, after implementing simple sales like that, helped us in our in all of that aspect, but it also helped me be a better educator and salesperson from the time a client booked, you know what I mean, until all of those things started coming into play, yeah, right, when we did wedding consultations and portrait consultations, it helped me get a better idea of what to say and how to educate my clients in those scenarios as well too, so that they were then ready for the whole process. So love, so
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:24.799
good. So let everybody know where they can connect with you, where they can learn more. I know you have you.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:29.299
I'd love for you to talk a little bit about some of the services that you provide for photographers,
00:32:29.299 --> 00:32:43.480
absolutely, so you can find me. I'm Melissa at virtually done systems. I know it's a mouthful, so it will be in the show notes. My website is virtuallydonesystems.com. And my Instagram is virtually done systems. We tried to find an abbreviation. It just didn't work well.
00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:47.980
So no. So here we are. I also have a long business name, so I do
00:32:47.980 --> 00:33:12.960
understand. So I'm all of those places in terms of how we can work together. We can work together in a couple of different ways. I do a done for you, CRM setup, which is essentially me coming in you dreaming big, and saying, Here's what I want to do with my life and with my my client experience. And then I do the heavy lifting to bring it to life, right? Just like Katie, if you don't know how to do IPs, I build that in for you. It's, it's, I love it. So quick
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:20.180
question about that, do you specifically work with one or two CRMs, or are you kind of a I use them all
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:31.339
Well, you see. So the great thing about having platform jumped. When I say when I was a kid, but when I was a wedding photographer, right?
00:33:28.220 --> 00:33:48.279
I've got experience running a business in almost all of them, except for the brand, brand new ones, right? Yeah, and so amazing. So if you come to me and say, I need to set up in TV, I'm your girl because, hello, I can do that, right? So I love working in Tave 17 hats, dubsa, auto, HoneyBook, sprout studio.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:56.980
I've done a couple of pixify setups, like, nice, it's, I have a really nerdy Excel spreadsheet that I use for all of them, right?
00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:13.019
Of course, very cool, okay, because I feel like a lot of people who do systems are sort of like, this is the one that I work in, or I specialize in. So that's great that you've got that flexibility, and then I know that you had a resource for people. Yes, tell us a little
00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:38.599
I have the quick win automation guide for listeners. And essentially it's going to take everything that we talked about today and give you the email verbiage, the template, the trigger, the timing, to take that and build it into your own CRM. So if you're not sure how to set up an autoresponder, it's going to say, here are the words you need to use. Here's when you need to set it up. Here are the things like, here's how to set up a workflow, or how to like the things to look for in your CRM.
00:34:35.659 --> 00:34:38.599
So you can bring this to life.
00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:53.559
Here's how to implement a scheduler. Here's how to do all these things. Here's the words, right? So I wanted to really make what we talked about today seem feasible. You know what I mean? Because I hate I hate it when people are like, Oh, you just do this and this and this, and then you're done,
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:57.519
but then you have no idea how to do this and this and this. Yeah. So this
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:09.119
guide essentially takes everything we talked about today and. Helps you bring it to life in your business, so that you can actually do the dang thing and not just sit there and think about it or cry over it, or whatever that looks like.
00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:20.900
Done is better than perfect, but well done is the best of all. So exactly, Oh, good. I love that. Well, Melissa, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been a pleasure chatting with you. I hope you have a great day.
00:35:20.900 --> 00:35:24.559
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me. This has been like, awesome.
00:35:25.219 --> 00:35:27.800
My pleasure.
00:35:25.219 --> 00:35:47.679
That's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out. This can't be that hard.com. To explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review of the show on iTunes or Spotify as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week. You.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:40.159
I think we can all relate to that closet that has just gotten completely out of hand in our house. Right at first, you start out and you're like, quickly putting clothes away one day after you do laundry, and you don't, you know, quite put things where they're supposed to go. So, you know, there are a couple of things out of place. Then there's that sweater that needs to go to their dry cleaner, or a jacket that you meant to return, and you kind of shove them in the back. And then there's that camera bag that you might use again someday. It's not your primary one, but you're not quite ready to part with it anyway. Fast forward a few months or a year, and suddenly that closet is an avalanche.
00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:53.859
Every time that you try to open the door right, it feels stressful. You're shoving stuff in, you're closing it fast, and you're promising yourself that you're going to get around to dealing with this at some point.
00:00:48.939 --> 00:02:22.219
And then one day, you get to a place where you need something that's in that closet, and it's all the way in the back, and you basically have to deconstruct the closet in order to find that thing, it takes way more time, whatever. And you're like, that's it. Running a business without solid systems feels exactly like that. It feels like the closet that is just overflowing, and maybe you can sort of manage it. And then at some point, you hit that breaking point. At first there's, you know, one or two manual tasks that you're doing, a client email here, an invoice there, but before you know it, you're spending more time managing the mess than you are actually doing the work that you love. And the worst part is, you know, something needs to change, but figuring out what to keep, what to toss, how to Marie Kondo, that mess can feel really overwhelming. That is why today's episode is all about systems, not the flashy kind that promise to you know, automate your entire life, but the kind that actually help you run your business in a sustainable, client friendly, human way, and to walk us through that, I am talking with Melissa rich, a former photographer turned system strategist who knows firsthand how the right automations can free up hours of time without making your business feel robotic. So whether your business closet needs a quick tidy up or a full on overhaul, this conversation is going to help you see how small systems can make a big, big difference.
00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:38.840
Let's get into it. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way.
00:02:39.500 --> 00:02:42.340
Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard.
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:53.979
You can do it, and I can show you how welcome to this can't be that hard. I'm super excited to have you on the show today. How are you? I am so well,
00:02:53.979 --> 00:02:57.460
and I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Oh my gosh.
00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:34.699
Oh no. This, as I was saying before, I feel like when you reached out and you were talking about what you what we're going to be talking about today, I was like, yes, yes, yes. Like, just nodding my head along, because this is basically my 100% jam. And I feel like everybody here has heard me talk about this a million times, I always appreciate having some outside support and other people's perspective on this. So before we dive in to all things systems and automation, talk or tell us a little bit about who you are, your backstory in the photography industry, and kind of what you're doing these days, sure.
00:03:34.699 --> 00:04:09.300
So present view, I am a Systems and workflow consultant, right? So I help photographers and creatives get their back end of their business sorted out in their CRM, their project management tool and other pieces, right? I have been previously a wedding photographer with my husband for the last 16 years. So we did the side hustle thing while we were working full time jobs, and then went full time and got super overwhelmed, right, right? And honestly, when we started our business, I didn't even know how to shoot. I was just running the back end of the business. I had to teach myself how to shoot, right? And so the pandemic hit.
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:23.480
We had a wedding photography business and a corporate event photography business, and it just knocked us out to be honest with you, yeah. And so in my previous previous life, I had worked for a large healthcare IT company on the process improvement team, right? Yeah.
00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:58.959
So that's where I fell in love with, like, sticky notes and workflows and all of those amazing things. And so the pandemic hit, and I started doing work as a VA, and I was like, Man, I really love being in the back end again and creating these systems and making life easier for my clients. And so that's how my business was born, so here we are what like five years later, right? Yeah, and that's what I get to do full time. I get to help small business owners enjoy their business again by making the back end the thing that nobody wants to do easier and more fulfilling. And it's just, I love it. It's so nerdy, but I love it.
00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:13.920
I. Yeah, okay, well, I'm gonna take a quick detour and ask a little bit about So when was the last time you were working in the IT industry? Since there was, you know, obviously, there was many years of photographing and all that sort of
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:19.680
stuff. Oh my gosh, I left my full time job in October of 2014,
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:50.439
okay, so yeah, well, no, the reason that I asked that is that I imagine that between then and when you started working as a VA and even, I mean, I guess you were watching this sort of from a user perspective in the, you know, during your photography business, but tell me a little bit about what has changed from 2014 to now in terms of what's available on the on the systems side of things, oh
00:05:50.439 --> 00:06:08.279
my gosh, the accessibility I feel like, and the variety of platforms, if you will. Our first CRM was an Excel sheet right right after we moved from the graph on the wall, you know what I mean, we moved to an Excel sheet, and then we moved to studio ninja, which didn't connect anything, right, right?
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:33.199
And so now platforms, you can access them from your phone. You can do anything from your phone that you could have done and that I had to do from that desktop app right there. The automation factor has just increased substantially, the user experience, the things that you can do in a CRM now to like, branded it, make it user friendly and like, make it feel like it's part of your website.
00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:53.379
And that overall experience and the customization factor, yeah, like, the customizations are just that, that in itself, the automations don't feel robotic anymore. They don't feel cold and like it's an automation. You can really personalize it and judge it up so that it's like, Wow, that feels like it's actually an email that she sat down and wrote and not just an automated thing. You know,
00:06:53.379 --> 00:07:56.439
yeah, when I first got a CRM, I started out with Tave, which at the time, and I think it was actually right around 2014 I'm pretty sure it was 2014 and I didn't know anything about CRMs. I didn't know what was possible. I remember reading in their documentation about automation and just being like, that's for somebody who's more tech savvy than me. So I really wasn't doing much with automations. And it was funny, you know, later, as I became not only more comfortable, but like, addicted to those kinds of things and figuring out how I could create, you know, right, an automated process where I once had to push the button, I remember looking back and being like, Oh, so many things that I just wasn't even willing to look at. But I think that the you like, the user interface on all that stuff has just gotten so much easier, cleaner, better. Tave was very much, and I haven't seen it recently. I haven't seen the back end, but it was, it was kind of a developers. CRM, like you really. It had tons of power, but you had to know how to control that,
00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:05.759
right? I feel like there are so many platforms now that you can hop in and within an hour, you can get something sent out if you need to, or set up, or that kind of thing. Tave.
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:33.559
So admittedly, because I loved the back end of the business, I platform hopped, which I do not recommend, right? But, like, every two years, oh, let's try this. Let's try this. Let's try this. Yeah, I loved Tave, like it in the I think that you would be I was in it a couple weeks ago, to be honest with you, it's still one of my favorites. But the that interface, that smoothness, that we're gonna make it as easy as we can for you to get up and running, right? I love, I think that that's so smart.
00:08:34.038 --> 00:08:37.038
Yeah, so good.
00:08:34.038 --> 00:08:57.339
Okay, that was a sidetrack. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, now that I know the backpack story, because I didn't know the it part, I would love to hear a little bit about when you got into doing the VA thing and everything else. What was it that made you decide I'm going to go specifically in on systems consulting. I
00:08:57.460 --> 00:09:11.399
loved the ease that it could bring to people, and so I am an oldest daughter, I am a millennial. I am a people pleaser, recovery and perfectionist type A all of those things that you hear about that that is me. Hello, yeah.
00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.419
And so I've always just wanted to help make people's lives better, right? And so for a long time, I thought that meant working in a nonprofit. But the more that I did the VA work, the more that I was like, no, these beautiful, creative minds don't know how to function like this.
00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.419
And I can live in both worlds.
00:09:29.539 --> 00:10:09.659
My husband taught me that he he is his creative brain, Annemie is just like, You know what I mean? He taught me how to work with anybody and so, but his brain didn't know how to work in systems. And so helping him and helping us get our business to the point where it was that it was running smoothly so we could enjoy life and focus on the things we wanted to I could replicate that with my clients, yeah, right. And we could make that easier. And I could take this big, like, I call it, like a big bowl of wet spaghetti noodles. It's just all tangled up, you know what? I. Mean, so often that's how business owners feel, that systems are and I take them and I string them out and lay them out in a nice, neat order so it actually looks like something and functions, and that makes their lives easier.
00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:45.220
As a result, they are able to do more and run their dream business and, like, live their dang life, which is what we all want to do. We don't set out to like, we don't start photography businesses because we want to run a business. We start photography businesses because we want to take pictures ultimately. And it lets them, yeah, it lets them do that. It lets me take their beautiful, creative, creativeness and scale it for them so they can grow the way they want to. And there's just something so beautiful about helping other people reach their dreams that I just love. I know that sounds corny.
00:10:46.419 --> 00:11:15.539
Nope, it sounds highly relatable. Corny though it may be, I feel the same way, and that's amazing. Okay, so I love this visual of the bowl of spaghetti, because it totally feels like that. Sometimes there's just this like nest of things and you have no idea how you're gonna disentangle everything. So I imagine that you have kind of a framework, a system that you start with. What do we start with? Like, what are the core systems that you feel like every photographer needs to have in place?
00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:25.519
Oh, my gosh. Well, at its core, I feel like every photographer needs to have an autoresponder turned on, and that sounds I say autoresponder.
00:11:22.519 --> 00:12:02.820
And people are like, Oh, that sounds cool, robotic and ugly and not nice. You know what I mean? I want to be personal, and I want to be high, touched, and I want them to know that it's actually me, right? But also in the photography industry, especially for wedding photographers or engagement photographers or proposal photographers, right? You have to get back to get back to your client, and you have to get back to them fast. And you don't want to be attached to your phone like you don't want to be sitting at your kid's soccer game on your phone replying to a client when a lead comes in. You know what I mean? Just that's not how you want to live your life, I'm assuming anyway. And so so that autoresponder, it goes out as soon as soon as they fill out your lead capture form.
00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:12.539
And it doesn't have to be anything more than Hey, I'm so excited. Your message came through. I'm checking my calendar. I'll get back to you within 24 hours, 48 hours, whatever. Let's connect here.
00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:54.519
Maybe it's Instagram. Maybe it's somewhere else. You know what I mean, two sentences. It's the easiest thing to set up, but it makes such a big difference, because then it gets you back in your client's inbox while they are hot and excited and so ready to work with you, you know what I mean, and then that gives them another touch point of how to find you as well, too. So I love doing that autoresponder, and it's easy to set up like even, even if you're building a workflow, and that's the only thing you have in that workflow that's automated, and nothing else lives there that is something, and you're doing better than you were before, because you're increasing the odds that that client's gonna book you. You're getting back to them quicker, and that's gonna help you and keep them excited as well, too.
00:12:55.059 --> 00:13:12.059
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it really is, you know, I think that for a long time, hopefully this is going away. But I think for a long time, there were photographers who viewed responding too fast as like seeming too eager, seeming too available, whatever.
00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:37.580
And I you know, this is not dating. We are not playing mind games. Somebody reaches out to you because they are actively looking for a solution to whatever their specific problem is, or, you know, whatever their photography need is, and that quick response and sort of letting them know that their form came through and that you're on it is, it's just good customer service, and it sort of sets the expectation that you're going to be quick to respond, which is
00:13:37.580 --> 00:13:52.539
a good thing. It really is. And honestly, like as a user, I mean, I personally have set inquiry forms in and then gotten nothing back, and it's like, yeah, did that actually go through? Do I need to email them? You know what I mean? And there's no worse feeling than that as the client.
00:13:52.539 --> 00:14:21.379
So like, start that client experience, like you said, set that expectation from the very get go, and that's going to set you up for more success down the long run, in the long run. So I love that. Love, love, love that autoresponder. Plus, here's the thing we talked about this a little bit earlier. It doesn't have to sound robotic. It doesn't have to sound automated like the key to making any automation feel like you and feel human is writing it like you would talk to somebody sure you know, don't just send it.
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:21.379
Hey, I got your message. Thanks.
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:33.080
Email, that sounds robotic, right? Oh my gosh. I'm so excited you you reached up a BU, you know what I mean? Yeah, write the email how you would talk to somebody in person, and that's going to feel like that genuine connection that you want
00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:45.820
to create amazing. Okay, so lead magnet, or lead man management, not magnet is it sort of that first spaghetti strand that we pull out of the bowl? Yes. What comes next? I
00:14:45.820 --> 00:15:04.860
love a pre session email, right? And again, even if this is the only email that you have set up in a workflow, it's going to make a world of difference for use. Send it out a week, a few days, whatever feels good to you before your session. And. Yes, but in this email, you want to prep your client for their session, what they can expect, right? Maybe.
00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:07.320
And I'm not saying it has to include all the things, right?
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:18.120
It can be as simple as, hey, Annemie, I'm so excited to see you on Friday at 6pm here's where we're starting. Bring these things, right? You also, though, can add to it, right?
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:23.720
Like add a prep guide, what to expect, how to prepare your kids. Maybe bring some snacks.
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:35.059
We're going to start here, and then walk around as much detail as you want to, but it sets the expectation for your client. And honestly, like I love having phone calls with clients too.
00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:58.419
Nothing, it doesn't always soak in verbally. So like using this email to set those expectations of what they are going to experience while they're with you, and what they need to bring and how to prepare. It just makes your job easier, and it helps set the session up for more success. It helps them have a better experience with you as well, too. You know what I mean?
00:15:55.480 --> 00:16:01.259
Every photographer is different, right? And there are some that are like, bring all the props.
00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:09.480
And if that's your thing, put that in the email. If other people are like, I hate props, put that in your email. That way they're not bringing the whole trunk full of props with them.
00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:17.100
You know what I mean? But this is just really like, I want you to have a successful session.
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:19.799
You as the client, right? I need to make sure that I do my job.
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:22.700
Well, here's what I need you to know so that both of those things can happen. That's all that that email
00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:27.740
is, yeah, yeah.
00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:39.200
I'm a big fan of breaking, you know, obviously a lot of people have prep guides that they send out as soon as somebody books, but let's say that that's a month or two before you actually work with them. Or, if you're a wedding photographer, that could be a year, you know, in advance.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:17:16.799
So I feel like that client communication system. Obviously there's like the reminder email a couple of days before the session itself. But like, you can take an entire prep guide and break it up into little, you know, emails that go out every couple of weeks, being like, Hey, just wanted to check in here. You know, today's topic is whatever, and it again, it's just a touch point. It helps maintain that excitement that they felt when they first booked with you. So it ends up not only having your client show up better prepared, but also feeling more connected to you.
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.799
So I love
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:31.640
that absolutely for sure. And again, it doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be over the top like it does not. One big misconception that a lot of photographers think of have about systems is that it has to be perfect in this big, beautiful thing from the get go.
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:43.539
This is just one thing that you can do that's simple, that will take you an hour top. So let's be realistic, to put into place to just really make your life easier and make your clients experience better.
00:17:43.539 --> 00:18:02.400
Yeah, and it can grow and expand. You can, you know, I know that you said in the beginning you're a perfectionist, and I tend to be that as well. So I can get caught like deer in the headlights with the well, if I don't have the whole thing set up, then it's not worth, you know, kind of getting it going.
00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:13.019
I have retrained my brain on that, because it is true. You start with one thing, and then you start to see, like, Oh, I think this would, it would work even better if I added in this, you know, the second thing, or this third thing. Oh, my
00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:17.279
gosh, absolutely, start with what you've got. I always like to say, yeah, yeah.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.319
Okay. So in terms of the systems themselves.
00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:29.960
We talked about lead management, we've talked about client communication, anything else that you're like. This is one of the basics, one of the core systems that people need. Let's
00:18:29.960 --> 00:19:00.240
talk about a scheduling tool for a minute, if we can. Yes, please. So this is one, believe it or not. This is one of the feature slash tools that I get the biggest pushback on when it comes to talking with clients. They could be, I work with all kinds of creatives, right? So it should be a photographer. It could be, I work with a lady who makes cat toys, and she also pushes back on the scheduler, right? So it's not a photographer thing only, but you got it makes your it makes your life so much easier.
00:18:56.619 --> 00:19:13.380
Are you kidding? And let's again. Let's talk about the client experience. When you go to book an appointment with somebody, how frustrated do you get that you can't do it online, or that you can't just do it in a one, two click, right? Right?
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:25.640
That not bad example, but an example. I'm my therapist. I have to schedule manually with her. There's not an online calendar, and every time I write this is so frustrating. Why is this not an online thing, right?
00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:52.059
And so incorporating the scheduler, it does a couple of things, right? It increases that client experience. Using a scheduler does not make it cold or a weird experience for your clients, if anything, it's decreasing the amount of time that it's takes gonna take for them to schedule that appointment and that uncertainty and that, what if we can't make it work? And what if you know what I mean, all of those things that happen, right? Yeah,
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.180
reducing friction at every possible turn.
00:19:55.240 --> 00:20:06.839
If somebody wants to call and like, compare calendars verbally with you, you know, right? Maybe have that available. But if somebody doesn't want to and just wants to see if you're available on the Saturday that their family is going to be in
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.480
town, right?
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:29.900
Exactly, I mean, and honestly, it takes a minimum of what, at least four emails to schedule a meeting. You figure that's five to 10 minutes writing each email, depending on what goes into it, right? You have to send the availability and ask for the meeting, then you're waiting, and then the client has to say, No, I'm not available. Then I'm available here. And you're like, Okay, well, maybe we can make that way. You know what? I mean?
00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:52.420
Like, it's just yeah. So a lot of people push back on that, and they push back on that because, but I don't want them to have access to my calendar, and I don't know when I'm going to be available and but what about my kids soccer game and things changing? But life happens absolutely, and I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but by using a calendar, you're making your life easier, because then it's all automated, which reduces the risk of human error.
00:20:52.480 --> 00:21:00.779
Let's talk about that for a minute, right? Which means you're not going to mess up or double book, because your calendar system is preventing that from happening, right? So
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:07.500
let's just have address the meta conversation that I imagine is happening in your mind behind this as well.
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:59.140
So you, when I'm you know, we decided that you were coming on the show, I sent you a calendar link for you to find a spot and book it, and you booked a time with me yesterday, and then the day before, I looked at my calendar and was like, Oh, I can't guarantee that I'm gonna be at my desk and ready, because I had a doctor appointment, like in the time slot right before that. So that's a perfect example of so I just to finish that, I reached out to you said, like, hey, is there any way that you can push by 30 minutes? Or maybe we can shift by a day. So here we are, but the the point is like, Yeah, I had put the doctor appointment on my calendar. I hadn't put enough padding or margin in there, because a doctor appointment is an unusual thing in my scout in my calendar, but it still got all of the steps taken care of.
00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:19.920
You had the link for the meeting. You had all of the, like, automated pre, you know, like, prep emails about, like, make sure you have this kind of microphone and etc, etc. You had all that stuff. All we needed to do was me reach out and be like, Hey, sorry about that little error on the calendar. Let's move. No big deal, but it takes so much of the work away,
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:26.180
right? It really does. And it makes you human as well, too. You know what I mean?
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:29.599
Like, I didn't care at all. Then we had to reschedule. I was like, wow, okay, we can do that.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:34.279
Yeah, absolutely, that's not, yeah, your clients not going to care either if you're trying to serve them better and easier.
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:46.779
And, like you said, reduce that friction. Some photographers, like I it depends on their amount, the amount of automation that they want. I always encourage you to use a scheduler for meetings, right?
00:22:44.259 --> 00:23:03.599
Consultations, that kind of thing. Some photographers like to go so far as to use it for scheduling sessions, which, honestly, I also love because, again, that makes it so much easier. There's no back and forth or anything like that. And then it kicks off that automation, those reminders, everything seamlessly for you.
00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:17.579
It just such a such a big thing, like such a, such a necessary tool, that I understand can be scary, but I think the risk outweighs the scare factor, or the reward outweighs the scare
00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:30.740
benefit. Yeah, totally so when somebody is new to systems and they set things up, inevitably, invariably, they are going to set things up that.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:55.779
I'm not going to say they're wrong, but they may be able to be improved in the future, or they may decide to, like change things up. How do you recommend that somebody who maybe has some systems. I mean, we all have some kind of system, even if it's a really messy system. How does one go about evaluating whether their current systems are kind of helping them, hurting them, not serving them to their full
00:23:55.779 --> 00:24:04.019
potential? Oh my gosh. I love this question, and I feel it in my soul, because a few weeks ago, I actually went through and redid did the same thing on my own systems, right?
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:16.380
So this is a recent thing for me to do in my business as well, too. So first of all, you want to look to see where there's friction, right? Where are clients not getting things done that you need them to get done.
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:25.519
Where are you having to go in and consistently manually updating thing, update things, right? Is there an email that you constantly skip over and then write it manually, right?
00:24:22.819 --> 00:24:41.500
Is there a link that you constantly have to update that kind of thing, right? Make a list of that and like, write that down. That's the first thing you need to update. But also something that we don't talk about enough, I feel like, is going to be the KPIs that are attached to your systems, right?
00:24:38.539 --> 00:24:49.240
The key performance indicators, this is going to come in handy, especially for your inquiry workflows, right? Are leads responding to your first email?
00:24:49.359 --> 00:25:01.200
Are they booking a call in that first email? Are they responding to that second Are they not? If leads aren't responding to that first email, that's a sign that you might need to go back in and update that email and tweak it.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:26:05.339
And update that part of your system, right? Like, you need to look to see what's working and what's not, where the friction is. If clients still have questions or honest, like, honestly, what's taking up the most amount of your time you're consistently having to redo, right? Like, that's, that's, that's the key. And then you take that one step at a time, and you update those pieces one step at a time, right? I worked with a wedding photographer last week, and we had previously done her systems, and we were doing some updates, right? And she was like, Well, I'm having these quick turnaround weddings that my big wedding workflow just doesn't work for. I was like, okay, she's like, she's like, I found that I'm skipping this email and this doesn't pertain, and that doesn't pertain, and so it's just adding more manual work on the back end. And so we created a workflow specifically for wedding clients who book in under two months, right? Big difference from the wedding clients who book in a year, yeah, but it takes paying attention and knowing this isn't working for this specific client. Maybe I need to set up this own thing over here to to figure out what you need to update, and everything like that, and then it's
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:09.240
just piece by piece.
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:09.240
Like, piece by
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:23.660
piece, yeah, and I, I feel like, you know, the having those CEO days where you're like, I am not going to edit any photos, I am not going to write any client emails, unless I am writing a template.
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:43.180
You know, a client email template those days can be so powerful. And honestly, one of the big reasons that I am such an advocate for kind of getting away from running your business in an Excel spreadsheet or, you know, oh well, I've got a really robust checklist that I use and that that works fine for me.
00:26:40.359 --> 00:27:26.480
It's not that I don't think those things can work, but what those things don't do is give you easy access to data about how things are working and you're absolutely right, like if you can look at your CRM and see that most people book after your third email, or you know, or most people who ghost, ghost, you know, because of X, Y and Z, or whatever the case may be, being able to look specifically at where those things are happening means that you can improve that, or you can take something out beforehand. You can react with actual intention, as opposed to just guessing what might be getting people stuck.
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:26.480
Oh
00:27:26.480 --> 00:28:11.940
my gosh, absolutely in my own business, I had a place recently where I realized my clients were getting stuck, and I was like, dang, Melissa, you're the systems person. This is not right that people are getting stuck in your system. And so I had to go back and revamp everything and change that, not everything, but, like, revamp that specific spot, because it was creating a frustrating point for my clients, and I want it to be easy to work with me like the same thing is true for photographers. Where are your clients getting stuck? If it's figuring out outfits, okay, what can we do to help them figure it out? Out outfits? What can we do so that their kids show up happy? What can we do to help prepare them for this. You know what I mean? Like, it's just increasing and upping that client experience, but also at the same time making your life easier, because your job is going to be easier on the flip side.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.599
Yeah, totally.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:28.099
So knowing what I now know about your background in systems, and then the fact that you're working with your husband in your photography business, and, of course, I know that you were slash are a simple Sales User.
00:28:28.339 --> 00:28:45.700
I'm dying to hear how a systems person, like a legit, well trained systems person, first of all, I'm honored that you, you know, signed up for the course and like, decided to implement that, but I would love to hear, sort of your systems take on simple sales.
00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:57.940
I loved it to be honest with you, and it was, and it was because, like, here's the thing we as photographers, we went full time, which means we need to make more money, right?
00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:28.940
How do you do that? Well, you sell things to your clients, right? Okay, to be honest with you, I am not a salesperson. It makes me super uncomfortable saying, even as a photographer, saying prices out loud to my clients, I was like, it's gonna be this much money to invest in your wedding day, you know what I mean? And so then the idea of trying to sell them more after the fact, I was like, oh my god, I can't do this. I just need somebody to teach me how to do this. Because I don't know, okay, I don't know what to say, because I'm awkward and like, I can set the automations up.
00:29:25.339 --> 00:29:58.119
That's the easy part, right? But it's the how do I do this? What do I say, right? And so I loved it, because you told me exactly what to say and when to say it, and it worked. Okay, not that I doubted the system or you, but like, I doubted myself. And yeah, as I talked to photographers, I talked to a photographer in the second year of business the other day, and she was like, I was like, we were talking about her systems and what she wanted to do. And I was like, are you doing IPs?
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:29.000
She's like, what's IPs? I said, Oh, it's in person sales. She goes, oh. Oh, like selling prints, I said, Yes, she goes. I have no idea how to do that, but I wish I could, because I need to make more money. Oh, okay, Katie, let's go down this path, right? Yeah, you just don't know. And simple sales teaches you how to do that. But there's also, like the mindset work that you include as well too, that is so important and made such a big difference. And then there's just the implementation. You made it, step one, step two, step three. I was like, okay, I can do this. You know, I
00:30:29.059 --> 00:30:29.900
can do stuff,
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.319
right? Exactly.
00:30:30.440 --> 00:31:05.460
And like, like, to be honest, I've worked with photographers who have bought simple sales, and they're like, I bought this because I know that I need it. I was like, Do you want some help setting it up? Yes, please. You know you know what I mean, right? And so it makes the biggest difference. It made you made us so much money. Let me just say that you made us so much money. I like, I tell everybody about it if they haven't used it, because it's just incredible. And I'm not just saying that because I'm here, right? Like, let's say that. I'm saying that because it actually worked for my business, and you made it easy and clear, and I would buy it was the best investment.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:07.619
Honestly, thanks.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:45.579
I Yeah. I mean, that's obviously, it's amazing to hear, and I always love hearing about artists making more money. But I do think that there is that intersection of like, okay, so here's some words you can say, emails you can send. You know, the way that you break down the pricing and the this, that and the other, but it is also this systematic element of it, where you are dripping things out piece by piece, or you're not, you know, overwhelming your potential client with too much information to begin with. You're giving them enough so that they can decide whether they want to take that next step and reach out or have a conversation or whatever,
00:31:45.579 --> 00:32:17.339
right? And honestly, after implementing simple sales like that, helped us in our in all of that aspect, but it also helped me be a better educator and salesperson from the time a client booked, you know what I mean, until all of those things started coming into play, yeah, right, when we did wedding consultations and portrait consultations, it helped me get a better idea of what to say and how to educate my clients in those scenarios as well too, so that they were then ready for the whole process. So love, so
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:24.799
good. So let everybody know where they can connect with you, where they can learn more. I know you have you.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:29.299
I'd love for you to talk a little bit about some of the services that you provide for photographers,
00:32:29.299 --> 00:32:43.480
absolutely, so you can find me. I'm Melissa at virtually done systems. I know it's a mouthful, so it will be in the show notes. My website is virtuallydonesystems.com. And my Instagram is virtually done systems. We tried to find an abbreviation. It just didn't work well.
00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:47.980
So no. So here we are. I also have a long business name, so I do
00:32:47.980 --> 00:33:12.960
understand. So I'm all of those places in terms of how we can work together. We can work together in a couple of different ways. I do a done for you, CRM setup, which is essentially me coming in you dreaming big, and saying, Here's what I want to do with my life and with my my client experience. And then I do the heavy lifting to bring it to life, right? Just like Katie, if you don't know how to do IPs, I build that in for you. It's, it's, I love it. So quick
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:20.180
question about that, do you specifically work with one or two CRMs, or are you kind of a I use them all
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:31.339
Well, you see. So the great thing about having platform jumped. When I say when I was a kid, but when I was a wedding photographer, right?
00:33:28.220 --> 00:33:48.279
I've got experience running a business in almost all of them, except for the brand, brand new ones, right? Yeah, and so amazing. So if you come to me and say, I need to set up in TV, I'm your girl because, hello, I can do that, right? So I love working in Tave 17 hats, dubsa, auto, HoneyBook, sprout studio.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:56.980
I've done a couple of pixify setups, like, nice, it's, I have a really nerdy Excel spreadsheet that I use for all of them, right?
00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:13.019
Of course, very cool, okay, because I feel like a lot of people who do systems are sort of like, this is the one that I work in, or I specialize in. So that's great that you've got that flexibility, and then I know that you had a resource for people. Yes, tell us a little
00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:38.599
I have the quick win automation guide for listeners. And essentially it's going to take everything that we talked about today and give you the email verbiage, the template, the trigger, the timing, to take that and build it into your own CRM. So if you're not sure how to set up an autoresponder, it's going to say, here are the words you need to use. Here's when you need to set it up. Here are the things like, here's how to set up a workflow, or how to like the things to look for in your CRM.
00:34:35.659 --> 00:34:38.599
So you can bring this to life.
00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:53.559
Here's how to implement a scheduler. Here's how to do all these things. Here's the words, right? So I wanted to really make what we talked about today seem feasible. You know what I mean? Because I hate I hate it when people are like, Oh, you just do this and this and this, and then you're done,
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:57.519
but then you have no idea how to do this and this and this. Yeah. So this
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:09.119
guide essentially takes everything we talked about today and. Helps you bring it to life in your business, so that you can actually do the dang thing and not just sit there and think about it or cry over it, or whatever that looks like.
00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:20.900
Done is better than perfect, but well done is the best of all. So exactly, Oh, good. I love that. Well, Melissa, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been a pleasure chatting with you. I hope you have a great day.
00:35:20.900 --> 00:35:24.559
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me. This has been like, awesome.
00:35:25.219 --> 00:35:27.800
My pleasure.
00:35:25.219 --> 00:35:47.679
That's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out. This can't be that hard.com. To explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review of the show on iTunes or Spotify as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week. You.
