WEBVTT
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Conversations can be brutal, but with
a little preparation and bridging,
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you can have amazing communication.
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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at
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Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Today, I'm excited to have
another conversation with
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my friend Rachel Greenwald.
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Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard
Business School and a professional
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matchmaker and dating coach.
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Rachel is an expert on communication and
relationship building, not only in the
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dating arena, but also in the workplace.
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She's here on campus at Stanford to
co-teach a class with Professor Tina
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Seelig called Designing for Love.
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Welcome, Rachel.
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I am so glad you decided to revisit us,
and it's great to be in person this time.
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Thanks for being here.
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You're welcome.
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Thanks for having me back.
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Excellent.
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Shall we get started?
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Let's do it.
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All right.
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The last time you were here, we talked a
lot about small talk, and you gave very
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actionable, useful advice that I use to
this day to start and to exit small talk.
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The white flag approach you taught was
amazing, and I really quote you often
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with the point that small talk is about
being interested and not interesting.
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And if any of you want to
hear Rachel's advice on small
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talk, go back to episode 217.
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So if those were sort of the entry-level,
beginner-level small talk advice and
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tips, can you give us some advanced
advice, black belt level small talk
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tips to help us better communicate and
help us avoid that dread we all feel?
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Yeah, everybody hates small talk because
mostly it's so boring and awkward.
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So I think that moving up the
scale to graduate level small
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talk advice is really about moving
from playing defense to offense.
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So defense is more like coming
up with good answers to basic
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small talk questions, which
we talked about last time.
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But playing offense is more about
being strategic with your small talk
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game to help your conversation partner
learn something about you that might
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lead to a desired goal that you have.
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So this is really where your personal
brand comes in, where I want you to find
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a bridge out of the initial stages of
small talk that leads towards a topic
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that makes you unique and memorable.
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So here's an example.
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Maybe you're on a date or
you're in a job interview.
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You want it to go well, so you think a
little bit ahead of time, "What is it
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that makes me unique from all the other
dates that he's been on this week or all
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the other candidates he's interviewed
this week?" And in your case, Matt, maybe
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it's that being a podcast host is unique.
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You know, you don't meet
those hosts every day.
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What I want you to do is find a bridge
that is gonna take you from a basic
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small talk question like, "How are
you?" to something that allows you
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to talk about being a podcast host.
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So for example, if I say, "How
are you?" You might say, "Oh,
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I'm actually doing great today.
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I just interviewed a really
interesting guest on my podcast, and
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she told me all about organic wine."
And so now you've sort of bridged
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into this more interesting topic.
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The key, though, is that you have
to have a plan going into these
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type of conversations because you
can't expect to just come up with
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something like that on the spot.
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Think about if you're an athlete,
you wouldn't just start exercising.
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You would do some stretching and
warming up before the exercise.
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So all sorts of examples like this, for
example, in a job interview, let's say
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one of the personal brand attributes that
makes you unique is that you're gritty.
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You, you have a lot of grit.
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Maybe you walk into a job
interviewer's office, and he's
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got a photo of himself climbing a
mountain behind him on the desk.
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And so you could do this bridge where
you say, "Oh, I noticed that hiking
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photo over there. I'm curious where that
hike is because actually I just climbed
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Kilimanjaro this year, and it was so hard,
but I did it." And so here you're moving
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basic small talk into something that is
strategic on your part, demonstrating your
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personal brand, that is grit in this case.
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So what I really hear is it's
about branding and bridging
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and how you connect those two.
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And what's required there is
to be a little strategic and to
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think in advance about what are
those things that make me unique.
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What advice do you have as we
reflect on our personal brand?
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We've had Seth Godin and Dorie
Clark on the show, and they've
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talked about personal brand as well.
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But as a matchmaker, I'm wondering if
you have a specific way of thinking about
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brand that we could all benefit from.
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I do.
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I mean, I think the first thing to say
about personal branding is that it gets
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a bad reputation as being manipulative
or like you're bragging or showing off
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if you talk about something that makes
you unique or special or memorable.
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So I think the first thing is you have
to get that out of your head, that I
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think the better metaphor about personal
branding is that it's almost like you're
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walking into a restaurant and the hostess
is greeting you at the host stand, and
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she can either make basic small talk with
you and say something like, "How are you?
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Would you like a table?" Or she could
hand you a menu and essentially say,
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"What looks good here tonight on the
menu?" So essentially, she's focusing
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the initial greeting on, like, the
chef's specials and what are the
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signature items at the restaurant.
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Once you've got the right attitude
about personal branding, the, the
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easiest shortcut to what is a personal
brand is to come up with three traits
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or skills that makes you unique.
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Seth Godin talked about this
in Purple Cow, about basically
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how to be unique and memorable.
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And I think you just come up with three
things that feel authentic but also
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unique, kind of the Venn diagram of who
you are, but what's unique about that.
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So maybe you're on a date, for example,
and let's say your three personal brand
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traits are that you're adventurous,
maybe you once appeared on Shark
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Tank, and you're from North Dakota.
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Being from North Dakota is not like
being from New York or California.
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It's unique.
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So you will pick something that is
part of that personal brand and find a
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bridge out of small talk into focusing
on something that makes you memorable.
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Of course, you may not be
the only one on Shark Tank.
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You're not the only one
who's from North Dakota.
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You're not the only one who's adventurous.
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But you might be the Venn diagram of those
three things, and that is a great place to
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start when somebody on a date might say to
you, "What do you do?" You might be able
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to think in advance, uh, well, I'm gonna
talk about being on Shark Tank because
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that's always good fodder for interesting
conversation and the crazy things that
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happened that one time I was on TV.
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And so somebody says, "What do you do?"
And you might start off by saying, "Well,
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I'm an entrepreneur, but I have to tell
you, I've only had 15 minutes of fame.
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My company may not be doing very well
right now, but once I was actually on
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Shark Tank, and I have the craziest
stories about Mr. Wonderful." So
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you brought up the topic, and you've
really served up a interesting menu
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to your conversation partner about
something to talk about right away.
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I really like the idea of delineating your
authentic differences in your brand as
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circles that overlap in a Venn diagram.
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A lot of people say, "Just list out
all the different things," but the
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physical representation and overlaps is
what I think can be really interesting
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because that is what makes you unique.
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There might be a lot of people who have
tenacity and a lot of people who have
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deep knowledge in one area, but that
overlap makes it unique, and I like that
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idea of helping us identify it that way.
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And then thinking of yourself as a host
or a hostess who has to focus that initial
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interaction, I really like that as well.
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Thank you.
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Many of us struggle in conversation
in general, but the real
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struggle is that first beginning
part, that first 60 seconds.
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Do you have advice on how to
maximize and set ourselves up
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to enjoy that beginning part?
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I feel like once I get over that
hump, it becomes much easier.
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You're exactly right, that those
first 60 seconds are the worst.
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I think taking an improv class is
always great because that helps
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teach you to roll with any situation.
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But beyond that, there are two other
things that I coach my dating clients on.
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So the first thing I tell people to
ease that first minute is topic prep.
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So to think about in advance, again,
you're like an athlete stretching
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and warming up for the exercises.
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Topic prep involves just
taking a minute or two before
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you walk into a conversation.
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You're maybe going to a business
networking event or on a date
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or a job interview or even
catching up with a friend.
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And you pause and think of three things
that you're curious to ask in advance.
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So if it's a stranger you're meeting,
you can Google them or find their
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Instagram or look for clues in
some messages you've had so far for
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what they might be interested in.
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But for example, let's say you
looked at their Instagram in advance
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of somebody you're meeting on a
date and you saw that this guy had
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a photo of himself fly fishing.
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So maybe that's one of your three topics
that you've prepped in advance, and you
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are gonna ask how he became interested in
fly fishing, and maybe that's gonna lead
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to a story about how his dad taught him
to fly fish, and it was bonding, and that
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opens up conversation about his family.
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So I think being prepared
is super important.
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There's another really interesting trick
that works especially well in almost
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every situation, and it is a Latin phrase
called in medias res. And in medias res
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means literally in the middle of things.
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So this is where you start
a story in the middle.
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If you've ever seen a TV show where
they start with a robbery in progress,
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and then the show cuts to a phrase
on the screen that says, "Three days
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earlier," and it hooks the listener
to show what led up to that moment.
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In conversation, starting a story in the
middle is something that you actually did
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the last time you and I had a phone call.
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I don't know if you remember this.
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I remember the phone call.
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I don't remember this.
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As soon as we got on the phone, I said
to you something like, "Thanks for
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accommodating my schedule to talk on a
Saturday." And you said, "There I was,
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toilet shopping with my mom when the
reminder for our meeting popped up on my
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phone." And so I was immediately hooked.
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Toilet shopping for your mom?
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What on earth is the backstory to that?
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And you just launched into, in
medias res, in the middle of a story,
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something that was unexpected and
intriguing, and it really just helped
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us get over very quickly those awkward
first 60 seconds of small talk.
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I'm glad I demonstrated that.
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Let's just say it was an explosive
situation that needed to be
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fixed, and we took care of it.
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Again, the advice is to do some
preparation, even though conversations
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are spontaneous, to, to take
the time to do some preparation.
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And that reconnaissance, reflection, and
research on the person or people you're
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interacting with can be really helpful.
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And the goal is not to script out
the communication, but it's really
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to find the opening for further
conversation, is what I heard you say.
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And that, to me, is a very
different way of approaching.
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So it's not just, "What do I say to
start it?" It's, "What do I say to
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open up the conversation?" And I like
the idea of starting in the middle.
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As somebody who teaches people how to
give presentations, that's definitely
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a technique that can be used, and I
like that you apply it to conversation.
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I wanna talk about how we did
prepare for this interview on
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that phone call on that Saturday.
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You and I had a conversation
about handling taboo topics,
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things like money, religion, sex.
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You have some really useful ideas
about how to discuss these types
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of topics, which turn out to be
really important as we develop
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deeper relationships with people.
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Can you share some tips and tools to help
us talk about topics that might be taboo?
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People tend to avoid taboo
topics because they're fearful of
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controversy or having awkward moments.
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But I would invite people, as they
move away from small talk and start
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to grow and deepen a relationship with
somebody, to reframe taboo topics as
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really a gateway to deepen connections.
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For example, what that looks like is
not focusing on the facts of the taboo
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topic, not, "What do you think about
it? Are you in favor of it or against
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it?" Those are facts about a taboo
topic like money, sex, or religion.
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But really to focus on the stories
and emotions behind those topics.
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So for example, if we use the taboo topic
of money, um, it's always somewhat awkward
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to talk about money for most people.
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So let's say you've been dating somebody
for a few weeks or months, and you
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wanna start assessing if your values
align on an important topic like money.
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So instead of asking a factual-based
question like, "Do you consider
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yourself frugal with your money, or
do you spend lavishly?" You might ask
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a question that evokes a story like,
"What did your parents teach you about
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money when you were growing up?" Or
you might ask a question like, "What's
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the first thing you bought with your
own money, and why was that important?"
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So here you're getting at the why of
what they feel and not a factual black
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or white answer in terms of whether they
align with what you think about the topic.
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So even though money is one of these
topics that people argue a lot about in
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marriages, what's important is how you
argue, not what you're arguing about, and
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not whether you're on the same page, but
how you resolve conflict when it arises.
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Taboo topics and using those to get
into storytelling about how someone's
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belief system was shaped, especially
at a young age, is really this kind
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of gateway to making taboo topics
a vehicle for deeper connection.
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So several things there that I
really like, that talking about
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topics that can be challenging
actually deepen the relationship.
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And a great way to do it is
through asking questions designed
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for people to explain why.
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Tell stories.
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Help me understand how you came to this
rather than what it is you believe.
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We had Wendy De La Rosa on, and we
talked a lot about money, and, and
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she had similar advice, that talking
about money in her case, but in all
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these topics, it's really an act of
demonstrating care and concern, and
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that's what deepens those relationships.
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And I love the idea of just soliciting
stories from people that allow you then
00:15:31.853 --> 00:15:33.894
to have, again, deeper conversations.
00:15:34.222 --> 00:15:35.182
Really good advice.
00:15:36.352 --> 00:15:37.774
Well, Rachel, you've been here before.
00:15:38.064 --> 00:15:41.952
You know that before we end, I
ask everybody three questions.
00:15:42.228 --> 00:15:46.238
One I make up just for you, and two
I've been asking people for a long time.
00:15:46.238 --> 00:15:49.232
And feel free to repeat what you've
said before or come up with different
00:15:49.232 --> 00:15:50.744
answers from our, your previous visit.
00:15:51.085 --> 00:15:51.930
Are you ready for these?
00:15:52.010 --> 00:15:52.814
Absolutely.
00:15:52.905 --> 00:15:53.714
Excellent.
00:15:54.258 --> 00:15:58.891
As a matchmaker, your clients go out on
dates every night all over the world,
00:15:59.214 --> 00:16:04.391
and the date outcome entirely hinges on
them having a good or bad conversation.
00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.674
How do you evaluate a successful
or unsuccessful date when you're
00:16:08.674 --> 00:16:12.229
not there yourself and you're just
listening in to what they tell you?
00:16:12.252 --> 00:16:14.935
How do you assess a good conversation?
00:16:15.493 --> 00:16:16.828
Oh, I love that question.
00:16:16.939 --> 00:16:23.131
The truth is, I have one simple
question that I reflect back to them,
00:16:23.329 --> 00:16:30.180
and I ask them, "What side of you
did they bring out?" So what I'm not
00:16:30.222 --> 00:16:33.915
asking is information-based questions.
00:16:33.974 --> 00:16:39.925
I am not asking, "Did you like
them?" Or, "What information did you
00:16:39.925 --> 00:16:44.257
learn about them?" Or, "Was there a
spark?" You know, those are typical
00:16:44.257 --> 00:16:47.746
questions that your friends might ask
you when you get back from a date.
00:16:48.127 --> 00:16:53.661
I'm asking, "What side of you did
they bring out?" to help me determine
00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:55.177
if this was a good or bad date.
00:16:55.704 --> 00:17:03.048
So if their answer is something like, "He
brought out my playful side," or maybe,
00:17:03.507 --> 00:17:08.472
"She brought out my confident side,"
then I know it was a successful date.
00:17:08.862 --> 00:17:13.271
But if their answer was something
more like, "Well, actually, he brought
00:17:13.271 --> 00:17:18.098
out my insecure side," or, "No, no,
she brought out my competitive side,"
00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:20.060
that's when I know it didn't go well.
00:17:20.702 --> 00:17:23.649
I really like that question
for assessing conversation, not
00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:25.023
just on dates, but in general.
00:17:25.023 --> 00:17:27.587
You know, what part of yourself
showed up or was able to be
00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:29.395
shown off in the conversation?
00:17:29.811 --> 00:17:32.354
And I think we can all do that ourselves.
00:17:32.355 --> 00:17:35.893
We don't need to just go to somebody who's
an expert like you and think about that.
00:17:36.284 --> 00:17:37.121
I really like that.
00:17:37.123 --> 00:17:38.590
I appreciate that question.
00:17:39.312 --> 00:17:43.423
Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire, and why?
00:17:44.098 --> 00:17:48.735
I've thought about this since the
last time I was on the show, and
00:17:48.802 --> 00:17:53.454
I'm gonna tell you about a personal
friend of mine named Katrina.
00:17:53.521 --> 00:17:59.943
And the reason I admire her so much is
that she always makes me feel good when
00:17:59.943 --> 00:18:05.621
I talk to her, and she does two specific
things that always make me feel good.
00:18:06.036 --> 00:18:12.337
First of all, she has a signature
expression that she uses all the
00:18:12.337 --> 00:18:18.432
time, and the expression is, "It's not
lost on me." So she'll say something
00:18:18.432 --> 00:18:23.813
like, "It's not lost on me that you
have an early morning tomorrow and
00:18:23.823 --> 00:18:26.049
you didn't cancel our dinner tonight.
00:18:26.483 --> 00:18:30.225
I really appreciate that you came
out and spent this time with me."
00:18:30.485 --> 00:18:33.927
So she's just finding a way to
show appreciation, and it makes
00:18:33.928 --> 00:18:37.038
me feel so good, especially
when it's something so minor.
00:18:37.053 --> 00:18:41.947
You know, it's not lost on her
that I didn't cancel our date.
00:18:41.947 --> 00:18:46.793
Like, that's a pretty low bar, but
here she is feeling so appreciative.
00:18:47.125 --> 00:18:50.847
So I think that expression is something
that everybody should use more of.
00:18:51.318 --> 00:18:56.960
And then the second thing she does
is she leaves a lot of voice notes
00:18:56.986 --> 00:18:59.576
for me instead of texting me.
00:19:00.106 --> 00:19:07.616
And I think this is a really underutilized
feature on our phones because it's
00:19:07.655 --> 00:19:11.835
not only unique from everybody else
that's texting you, but it's more
00:19:12.009 --> 00:19:16.292
personal, and it creates an emotional
connection when I hear her voice.
00:19:16.656 --> 00:19:21.283
And so I would say 8 out of 10
times that I communicate with her
00:19:21.522 --> 00:19:23.684
is her leaving me a voice note.
00:19:23.941 --> 00:19:28.062
Now, I also appreciate that
it's not as intrusive as a phone
00:19:28.065 --> 00:19:31.808
call because that would be her
interrupting something else I'm doing.
00:19:31.818 --> 00:19:35.141
But, you know, the voice note is
just that beautiful, happy medium
00:19:35.157 --> 00:19:39.764
where I get personal and emotional
connection with her, but it's on
00:19:39.765 --> 00:19:41.533
my own time when I listen to it.
00:19:41.543 --> 00:19:46.219
So I think those two things, appreciation
and emotional connection, are really
00:19:46.254 --> 00:19:48.540
what make her a superstar communicator.
00:19:49.148 --> 00:19:52.396
I'll start by saying it's not lost on
me that you spent a little time thinking
00:19:52.397 --> 00:19:54.301
about this deeply, and I appreciate that.
00:19:54.331 --> 00:19:58.559
And taking the time to express
appreciation and finding a unique way
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.246
to connect with somebody where your
true voice, in the case of a voice
00:20:01.248 --> 00:20:02.970
memo, comes out, I appreciate that.
00:20:03.588 --> 00:20:07.399
Well, the final question, Rachel, what
are the first three ingredients that go
00:20:07.399 --> 00:20:10.088
into a successful communication recipe?
00:20:10.855 --> 00:20:12.631
The first ingredient is mood.
00:20:12.881 --> 00:20:18.052
I think not enough people think
about how they make someone feel
00:20:18.322 --> 00:20:19.965
when they're talking to them.
00:20:19.996 --> 00:20:27.299
And so the idea here is that if somebody
says something to you like, "I love
00:20:27.323 --> 00:20:32.188
to ski," you might respond by saying
something like, "Me too," if you're the
00:20:32.188 --> 00:20:37.466
mirror, or you might respond by saying
something factual, a, a question like,
00:20:37.547 --> 00:20:42.103
"Where's your favorite place to ski?"
That would be a very legitimate response.
00:20:42.365 --> 00:20:48.971
But a mood-based response to somebody who
says they like to ski is more like saying
00:20:48.976 --> 00:20:54.079
to them, "Tell me the last time you went
skiing and you really loved the day."
00:20:54.572 --> 00:21:01.723
And that kind of evokes a time for them
when they felt good, and you're invoking
00:21:01.751 --> 00:21:09.702
a positive memory by asking a question
that is focused on them telling a story.
00:21:09.813 --> 00:21:16.532
It's promoting connection, and it's
not garnering information, but really
00:21:16.953 --> 00:21:22.067
creating a moment between the two of you
where they're affiliating the positive
00:21:22.082 --> 00:21:27.673
mood they are calling up from their
memory with almost, like, conflating
00:21:27.681 --> 00:21:31.274
it with you because you're the one
that's experiencing that with them.
00:21:31.801 --> 00:21:36.514
The second ingredient I would say
is a acronym I use all the time,
00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.106
which is DBB, don't be boring.
00:21:40.627 --> 00:21:46.993
I think not enough people use
DBB, don't be boring, as a lens
00:21:47.014 --> 00:21:49.585
to filter their conversation.
00:21:49.990 --> 00:21:56.139
And if you can start to remember
that every time you go to answer a
00:21:56.139 --> 00:22:01.444
question in a conversation, first
do a quick check, "Is this boring?"
00:22:01.665 --> 00:22:05.824
And if it is, come up with something
more interesting because boredom
00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:07.611
is just the enemy of conversation.
00:22:08.156 --> 00:22:12.964
And last, I guess the ingredient I
would say is probably vulnerability.
00:22:13.370 --> 00:22:17.650
Not just showing the polished
version of yourself, but really
00:22:17.653 --> 00:22:21.734
telling a story that's real and
humble, maybe self-deprecating.
00:22:21.962 --> 00:22:24.172
You could talk about a
challenge you're having.
00:22:24.181 --> 00:22:26.443
You could talk about
an embarrassing moment.
00:22:26.661 --> 00:22:28.105
You could talk about a regret.
00:22:28.489 --> 00:22:32.274
And it's not about bringing the mood
down or being negative, but really
00:22:32.274 --> 00:22:36.818
just being aware that the polished
version of you where everything's
00:22:36.821 --> 00:22:41.220
great and you're amazing is a
lost opportunity for connection.
00:22:41.918 --> 00:22:45.601
All of your three ingredients
have to do with connection.
00:22:46.060 --> 00:22:50.336
I really like the idea of setting the
mood through the things you ask and
00:22:50.345 --> 00:22:54.662
the interaction you have, and that
mood does transfer from if I'm having
00:22:54.662 --> 00:22:58.420
a good time telling you a story,
I'm having a good time with you.
00:22:58.738 --> 00:23:03.113
And this notion of as you begin
to respond in a conversation,
00:23:03.423 --> 00:23:04.939
you have choices of what to say.
00:23:04.946 --> 00:23:06.559
Choose the option that's less boring.
00:23:07.066 --> 00:23:10.796
And then finally, being vulnerable,
being authentic, really powerful.
00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:14.131
Rachel, like all of our conversations,
I learn so much from you.
00:23:14.172 --> 00:23:15.551
I really appreciate it.
00:23:15.632 --> 00:23:20.638
This notion of thinking first and
planning before we go into conversation,
00:23:20.988 --> 00:23:25.291
considering how we bridge into the
topics we want to have, and how we
00:23:25.293 --> 00:23:28.700
can bring out the best in others
and ourselves, really important.
00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:29.125
Thank you.
00:23:29.531 --> 00:23:30.421
Thanks for having me.
00:23:30.421 --> 00:23:31.821
It was a pleasure as always.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.502
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think
00:23:35.503 --> 00:23:37.179
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
00:23:37.547 --> 00:23:41.203
To learn more from Rachel Greenwald,
please listen to episode 217.
00:23:41.713 --> 00:23:46.115
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
00:23:46.370 --> 00:23:50.466
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
00:23:50.932 --> 00:23:53.962
Please find us on YouTube and
wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:54.177 --> 00:23:56.272
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.
00:23:56.551 --> 00:23:59.171
Also, follow us on LinkedIn,
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00:23:59.582 --> 00:24:03.441
And check out fastersmarter.io for
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00:24:03.442 --> 00:24:05.339
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00:24:05.701 --> 00:24:08.685
Please consider joining our Think
Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community
00:24:08.686 --> 00:24:11.187
at fastersmarter.io/learning.
00:24:11.588 --> 00:24:15.094
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quests, discussion boards, an AI
00:24:15.127 --> 00:24:17.175
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00:24:17.424 --> 00:24:22.990
Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning
to become part of our Learning Community.
00:00:02.904 --> 00:00:07.848
Conversations can be brutal, but with
a little preparation and bridging,
00:00:07.889 --> 00:00:09.972
you can have amazing communication.
00:00:10.554 --> 00:00:13.532
My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at
00:00:13.533 --> 00:00:15.309
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
00:00:15.537 --> 00:00:18.675
Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.
00:00:19.414 --> 00:00:21.401
Today, I'm excited to have
another conversation with
00:00:21.402 --> 00:00:22.759
my friend Rachel Greenwald.
00:00:22.872 --> 00:00:26.002
Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard
Business School and a professional
00:00:26.006 --> 00:00:27.537
matchmaker and dating coach.
00:00:27.924 --> 00:00:31.744
Rachel is an expert on communication and
relationship building, not only in the
00:00:31.744 --> 00:00:34.027
dating arena, but also in the workplace.
00:00:34.394 --> 00:00:38.019
She's here on campus at Stanford to
co-teach a class with Professor Tina
00:00:38.020 --> 00:00:40.187
Seelig called Designing for Love.
00:00:40.668 --> 00:00:41.553
Welcome, Rachel.
00:00:41.577 --> 00:00:45.368
I am so glad you decided to revisit us,
and it's great to be in person this time.
00:00:45.371 --> 00:00:46.178
Thanks for being here.
00:00:46.293 --> 00:00:46.928
You're welcome.
00:00:46.933 --> 00:00:48.147
Thanks for having me back.
00:00:48.166 --> 00:00:48.800
Excellent.
00:00:48.800 --> 00:00:49.654
Shall we get started?
00:00:49.739 --> 00:00:50.266
Let's do it.
00:00:50.312 --> 00:00:51.016
All right.
00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:55.857
The last time you were here, we talked a
lot about small talk, and you gave very
00:00:55.942 --> 00:01:01.945
actionable, useful advice that I use to
this day to start and to exit small talk.
00:01:01.953 --> 00:01:06.892
The white flag approach you taught was
amazing, and I really quote you often
00:01:06.892 --> 00:01:11.311
with the point that small talk is about
being interested and not interesting.
00:01:11.547 --> 00:01:14.069
And if any of you want to
hear Rachel's advice on small
00:01:14.069 --> 00:01:16.317
talk, go back to episode 217.
00:01:16.973 --> 00:01:22.437
So if those were sort of the entry-level,
beginner-level small talk advice and
00:01:22.437 --> 00:01:27.649
tips, can you give us some advanced
advice, black belt level small talk
00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:32.750
tips to help us better communicate and
help us avoid that dread we all feel?
00:01:33.246 --> 00:01:38.360
Yeah, everybody hates small talk because
mostly it's so boring and awkward.
00:01:38.433 --> 00:01:43.294
So I think that moving up the
scale to graduate level small
00:01:43.295 --> 00:01:47.615
talk advice is really about moving
from playing defense to offense.
00:01:48.139 --> 00:01:52.199
So defense is more like coming
up with good answers to basic
00:01:52.199 --> 00:01:54.695
small talk questions, which
we talked about last time.
00:01:55.067 --> 00:01:59.976
But playing offense is more about
being strategic with your small talk
00:01:59.988 --> 00:02:05.387
game to help your conversation partner
learn something about you that might
00:02:05.463 --> 00:02:08.725
lead to a desired goal that you have.
00:02:09.041 --> 00:02:14.451
So this is really where your personal
brand comes in, where I want you to find
00:02:14.463 --> 00:02:20.513
a bridge out of the initial stages of
small talk that leads towards a topic
00:02:20.696 --> 00:02:23.606
that makes you unique and memorable.
00:02:24.146 --> 00:02:25.516
So here's an example.
00:02:25.791 --> 00:02:29.000
Maybe you're on a date or
you're in a job interview.
00:02:29.332 --> 00:02:34.409
You want it to go well, so you think a
little bit ahead of time, "What is it
00:02:34.409 --> 00:02:39.192
that makes me unique from all the other
dates that he's been on this week or all
00:02:39.194 --> 00:02:44.392
the other candidates he's interviewed
this week?" And in your case, Matt, maybe
00:02:44.420 --> 00:02:47.461
it's that being a podcast host is unique.
00:02:47.462 --> 00:02:49.808
You know, you don't meet
those hosts every day.
00:02:50.115 --> 00:02:54.952
What I want you to do is find a bridge
that is gonna take you from a basic
00:02:54.953 --> 00:02:59.836
small talk question like, "How are
you?" to something that allows you
00:02:59.836 --> 00:03:02.168
to talk about being a podcast host.
00:03:02.452 --> 00:03:06.769
So for example, if I say, "How
are you?" You might say, "Oh,
00:03:06.802 --> 00:03:08.963
I'm actually doing great today.
00:03:09.018 --> 00:03:13.587
I just interviewed a really
interesting guest on my podcast, and
00:03:13.591 --> 00:03:18.380
she told me all about organic wine."
And so now you've sort of bridged
00:03:18.392 --> 00:03:20.155
into this more interesting topic.
00:03:20.425 --> 00:03:24.689
The key, though, is that you have
to have a plan going into these
00:03:24.690 --> 00:03:28.161
type of conversations because you
can't expect to just come up with
00:03:28.163 --> 00:03:29.697
something like that on the spot.
00:03:30.079 --> 00:03:33.753
Think about if you're an athlete,
you wouldn't just start exercising.
00:03:33.834 --> 00:03:37.489
You would do some stretching and
warming up before the exercise.
00:03:37.886 --> 00:03:42.161
So all sorts of examples like this, for
example, in a job interview, let's say
00:03:42.233 --> 00:03:47.745
one of the personal brand attributes that
makes you unique is that you're gritty.
00:03:47.765 --> 00:03:49.245
You, you have a lot of grit.
00:03:49.642 --> 00:03:54.564
Maybe you walk into a job
interviewer's office, and he's
00:03:54.581 --> 00:04:00.555
got a photo of himself climbing a
mountain behind him on the desk.
00:04:00.850 --> 00:04:05.766
And so you could do this bridge where
you say, "Oh, I noticed that hiking
00:04:05.767 --> 00:04:11.430
photo over there. I'm curious where that
hike is because actually I just climbed
00:04:11.444 --> 00:04:18.231
Kilimanjaro this year, and it was so hard,
but I did it." And so here you're moving
00:04:18.235 --> 00:04:24.492
basic small talk into something that is
strategic on your part, demonstrating your
00:04:24.492 --> 00:04:27.257
personal brand, that is grit in this case.
00:04:27.703 --> 00:04:30.048
So what I really hear is it's
about branding and bridging
00:04:30.408 --> 00:04:31.898
and how you connect those two.
00:04:31.898 --> 00:04:34.621
And what's required there is
to be a little strategic and to
00:04:34.629 --> 00:04:38.291
think in advance about what are
those things that make me unique.
00:04:38.688 --> 00:04:42.289
What advice do you have as we
reflect on our personal brand?
00:04:42.289 --> 00:04:44.706
We've had Seth Godin and Dorie
Clark on the show, and they've
00:04:44.711 --> 00:04:45.991
talked about personal brand as well.
00:04:45.992 --> 00:04:50.303
But as a matchmaker, I'm wondering if
you have a specific way of thinking about
00:04:50.597 --> 00:04:52.291
brand that we could all benefit from.
00:04:52.674 --> 00:04:53.229
I do.
00:04:53.244 --> 00:04:57.542
I mean, I think the first thing to say
about personal branding is that it gets
00:04:57.542 --> 00:05:03.140
a bad reputation as being manipulative
or like you're bragging or showing off
00:05:03.176 --> 00:05:08.260
if you talk about something that makes
you unique or special or memorable.
00:05:08.582 --> 00:05:12.315
So I think the first thing is you have
to get that out of your head, that I
00:05:12.325 --> 00:05:18.098
think the better metaphor about personal
branding is that it's almost like you're
00:05:18.258 --> 00:05:23.793
walking into a restaurant and the hostess
is greeting you at the host stand, and
00:05:23.804 --> 00:05:28.342
she can either make basic small talk with
you and say something like, "How are you?
00:05:28.379 --> 00:05:33.602
Would you like a table?" Or she could
hand you a menu and essentially say,
00:05:33.739 --> 00:05:38.503
"What looks good here tonight on the
menu?" So essentially, she's focusing
00:05:38.572 --> 00:05:43.758
the initial greeting on, like, the
chef's specials and what are the
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:45.288
signature items at the restaurant.
00:05:45.694 --> 00:05:48.865
Once you've got the right attitude
about personal branding, the, the
00:05:48.866 --> 00:05:54.815
easiest shortcut to what is a personal
brand is to come up with three traits
00:05:54.850 --> 00:05:57.305
or skills that makes you unique.
00:05:57.717 --> 00:06:00.780
Seth Godin talked about this
in Purple Cow, about basically
00:06:00.780 --> 00:06:02.414
how to be unique and memorable.
00:06:02.674 --> 00:06:08.874
And I think you just come up with three
things that feel authentic but also
00:06:08.874 --> 00:06:13.962
unique, kind of the Venn diagram of who
you are, but what's unique about that.
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:20.215
So maybe you're on a date, for example,
and let's say your three personal brand
00:06:20.284 --> 00:06:25.334
traits are that you're adventurous,
maybe you once appeared on Shark
00:06:25.348 --> 00:06:28.298
Tank, and you're from North Dakota.
00:06:28.709 --> 00:06:31.771
Being from North Dakota is not like
being from New York or California.
00:06:31.772 --> 00:06:32.378
It's unique.
00:06:32.897 --> 00:06:39.926
So you will pick something that is
part of that personal brand and find a
00:06:39.928 --> 00:06:45.496
bridge out of small talk into focusing
on something that makes you memorable.
00:06:45.936 --> 00:06:48.828
Of course, you may not be
the only one on Shark Tank.
00:06:48.828 --> 00:06:50.826
You're not the only one
who's from North Dakota.
00:06:50.826 --> 00:06:52.442
You're not the only one who's adventurous.
00:06:53.015 --> 00:06:59.431
But you might be the Venn diagram of those
three things, and that is a great place to
00:06:59.433 --> 00:07:04.842
start when somebody on a date might say to
you, "What do you do?" You might be able
00:07:04.842 --> 00:07:09.897
to think in advance, uh, well, I'm gonna
talk about being on Shark Tank because
00:07:10.058 --> 00:07:14.075
that's always good fodder for interesting
conversation and the crazy things that
00:07:14.075 --> 00:07:16.397
happened that one time I was on TV.
00:07:16.626 --> 00:07:20.717
And so somebody says, "What do you do?"
And you might start off by saying, "Well,
00:07:20.767 --> 00:07:26.174
I'm an entrepreneur, but I have to tell
you, I've only had 15 minutes of fame.
00:07:26.179 --> 00:07:30.859
My company may not be doing very well
right now, but once I was actually on
00:07:30.862 --> 00:07:35.210
Shark Tank, and I have the craziest
stories about Mr. Wonderful." So
00:07:35.210 --> 00:07:41.275
you brought up the topic, and you've
really served up a interesting menu
00:07:41.311 --> 00:07:45.772
to your conversation partner about
something to talk about right away.
00:07:46.637 --> 00:07:52.849
I really like the idea of delineating your
authentic differences in your brand as
00:07:52.893 --> 00:07:55.082
circles that overlap in a Venn diagram.
00:07:55.313 --> 00:07:57.980
A lot of people say, "Just list out
all the different things," but the
00:07:57.980 --> 00:08:02.396
physical representation and overlaps is
what I think can be really interesting
00:08:02.402 --> 00:08:04.044
because that is what makes you unique.
00:08:04.055 --> 00:08:07.223
There might be a lot of people who have
tenacity and a lot of people who have
00:08:07.223 --> 00:08:10.635
deep knowledge in one area, but that
overlap makes it unique, and I like that
00:08:10.637 --> 00:08:12.560
idea of helping us identify it that way.
00:08:12.933 --> 00:08:18.037
And then thinking of yourself as a host
or a hostess who has to focus that initial
00:08:18.038 --> 00:08:20.063
interaction, I really like that as well.
00:08:20.073 --> 00:08:20.608
Thank you.
00:08:21.073 --> 00:08:25.278
Many of us struggle in conversation
in general, but the real
00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:29.144
struggle is that first beginning
part, that first 60 seconds.
00:08:29.392 --> 00:08:31.930
Do you have advice on how to
maximize and set ourselves up
00:08:31.931 --> 00:08:33.596
to enjoy that beginning part?
00:08:33.596 --> 00:08:35.979
I feel like once I get over that
hump, it becomes much easier.
00:08:36.442 --> 00:08:40.111
You're exactly right, that those
first 60 seconds are the worst.
00:08:40.347 --> 00:08:45.079
I think taking an improv class is
always great because that helps
00:08:45.146 --> 00:08:47.370
teach you to roll with any situation.
00:08:47.380 --> 00:08:51.780
But beyond that, there are two other
things that I coach my dating clients on.
00:08:52.116 --> 00:08:58.727
So the first thing I tell people to
ease that first minute is topic prep.
00:08:59.037 --> 00:09:04.266
So to think about in advance, again,
you're like an athlete stretching
00:09:04.266 --> 00:09:06.401
and warming up for the exercises.
00:09:06.725 --> 00:09:10.255
Topic prep involves just
taking a minute or two before
00:09:10.256 --> 00:09:12.403
you walk into a conversation.
00:09:12.412 --> 00:09:16.286
You're maybe going to a business
networking event or on a date
00:09:16.286 --> 00:09:19.139
or a job interview or even
catching up with a friend.
00:09:19.629 --> 00:09:26.751
And you pause and think of three things
that you're curious to ask in advance.
00:09:27.117 --> 00:09:30.964
So if it's a stranger you're meeting,
you can Google them or find their
00:09:30.982 --> 00:09:35.467
Instagram or look for clues in
some messages you've had so far for
00:09:35.553 --> 00:09:36.858
what they might be interested in.
00:09:37.352 --> 00:09:40.527
But for example, let's say you
looked at their Instagram in advance
00:09:40.529 --> 00:09:44.767
of somebody you're meeting on a
date and you saw that this guy had
00:09:44.805 --> 00:09:46.858
a photo of himself fly fishing.
00:09:47.213 --> 00:09:52.573
So maybe that's one of your three topics
that you've prepped in advance, and you
00:09:52.589 --> 00:09:57.976
are gonna ask how he became interested in
fly fishing, and maybe that's gonna lead
00:09:57.991 --> 00:10:03.858
to a story about how his dad taught him
to fly fish, and it was bonding, and that
00:10:03.880 --> 00:10:06.071
opens up conversation about his family.
00:10:06.217 --> 00:10:08.921
So I think being prepared
is super important.
00:10:09.288 --> 00:10:14.341
There's another really interesting trick
that works especially well in almost
00:10:14.355 --> 00:10:21.973
every situation, and it is a Latin phrase
called in medias res. And in medias res
00:10:21.998 --> 00:10:24.586
means literally in the middle of things.
00:10:25.031 --> 00:10:29.838
So this is where you start
a story in the middle.
00:10:30.111 --> 00:10:34.930
If you've ever seen a TV show where
they start with a robbery in progress,
00:10:35.122 --> 00:10:40.742
and then the show cuts to a phrase
on the screen that says, "Three days
00:10:40.775 --> 00:10:45.786
earlier," and it hooks the listener
to show what led up to that moment.
00:10:46.146 --> 00:10:51.276
In conversation, starting a story in the
middle is something that you actually did
00:10:51.276 --> 00:10:53.221
the last time you and I had a phone call.
00:10:53.241 --> 00:10:54.910
I don't know if you remember this.
00:10:54.910 --> 00:10:55.665
I remember the phone call.
00:10:55.665 --> 00:10:56.640
I don't remember this.
00:10:56.823 --> 00:11:00.803
As soon as we got on the phone, I said
to you something like, "Thanks for
00:11:00.803 --> 00:11:05.322
accommodating my schedule to talk on a
Saturday." And you said, "There I was,
00:11:05.454 --> 00:11:10.305
toilet shopping with my mom when the
reminder for our meeting popped up on my
00:11:10.305 --> 00:11:13.526
phone." And so I was immediately hooked.
00:11:13.608 --> 00:11:15.660
Toilet shopping for your mom?
00:11:15.660 --> 00:11:18.418
What on earth is the backstory to that?
00:11:18.645 --> 00:11:23.180
And you just launched into, in
medias res, in the middle of a story,
00:11:23.221 --> 00:11:29.276
something that was unexpected and
intriguing, and it really just helped
00:11:29.276 --> 00:11:33.461
us get over very quickly those awkward
first 60 seconds of small talk.
00:11:33.954 --> 00:11:35.549
I'm glad I demonstrated that.
00:11:35.751 --> 00:11:39.101
Let's just say it was an explosive
situation that needed to be
00:11:39.101 --> 00:11:40.406
fixed, and we took care of it.
00:11:40.843 --> 00:11:45.101
Again, the advice is to do some
preparation, even though conversations
00:11:45.103 --> 00:11:48.000
are spontaneous, to, to take
the time to do some preparation.
00:11:48.060 --> 00:11:51.901
And that reconnaissance, reflection, and
research on the person or people you're
00:11:51.924 --> 00:11:53.942
interacting with can be really helpful.
00:11:53.942 --> 00:11:58.009
And the goal is not to script out
the communication, but it's really
00:11:58.009 --> 00:12:01.360
to find the opening for further
conversation, is what I heard you say.
00:12:01.362 --> 00:12:04.362
And that, to me, is a very
different way of approaching.
00:12:04.363 --> 00:12:07.371
So it's not just, "What do I say to
start it?" It's, "What do I say to
00:12:07.382 --> 00:12:10.987
open up the conversation?" And I like
the idea of starting in the middle.
00:12:11.185 --> 00:12:14.286
As somebody who teaches people how to
give presentations, that's definitely
00:12:14.286 --> 00:12:17.560
a technique that can be used, and I
like that you apply it to conversation.
00:12:17.983 --> 00:12:20.341
I wanna talk about how we did
prepare for this interview on
00:12:20.342 --> 00:12:21.856
that phone call on that Saturday.
00:12:22.087 --> 00:12:25.634
You and I had a conversation
about handling taboo topics,
00:12:25.643 --> 00:12:28.438
things like money, religion, sex.
00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:32.063
You have some really useful ideas
about how to discuss these types
00:12:32.063 --> 00:12:35.906
of topics, which turn out to be
really important as we develop
00:12:35.906 --> 00:12:37.574
deeper relationships with people.
00:12:37.803 --> 00:12:42.502
Can you share some tips and tools to help
us talk about topics that might be taboo?
00:12:42.984 --> 00:12:47.312
People tend to avoid taboo
topics because they're fearful of
00:12:47.337 --> 00:12:49.660
controversy or having awkward moments.
00:12:49.661 --> 00:12:54.318
But I would invite people, as they
move away from small talk and start
00:12:54.333 --> 00:13:00.749
to grow and deepen a relationship with
somebody, to reframe taboo topics as
00:13:00.749 --> 00:13:04.047
really a gateway to deepen connections.
00:13:04.389 --> 00:13:10.387
For example, what that looks like is
not focusing on the facts of the taboo
00:13:10.387 --> 00:13:15.341
topic, not, "What do you think about
it? Are you in favor of it or against
00:13:15.342 --> 00:13:19.871
it?" Those are facts about a taboo
topic like money, sex, or religion.
00:13:20.336 --> 00:13:25.223
But really to focus on the stories
and emotions behind those topics.
00:13:25.235 --> 00:13:31.583
So for example, if we use the taboo topic
of money, um, it's always somewhat awkward
00:13:31.617 --> 00:13:33.246
to talk about money for most people.
00:13:33.689 --> 00:13:38.986
So let's say you've been dating somebody
for a few weeks or months, and you
00:13:38.986 --> 00:13:43.833
wanna start assessing if your values
align on an important topic like money.
00:13:44.232 --> 00:13:49.558
So instead of asking a factual-based
question like, "Do you consider
00:13:49.558 --> 00:13:54.224
yourself frugal with your money, or
do you spend lavishly?" You might ask
00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:59.147
a question that evokes a story like,
"What did your parents teach you about
00:13:59.149 --> 00:14:04.473
money when you were growing up?" Or
you might ask a question like, "What's
00:14:04.473 --> 00:14:08.024
the first thing you bought with your
own money, and why was that important?"
00:14:08.493 --> 00:14:16.286
So here you're getting at the why of
what they feel and not a factual black
00:14:16.286 --> 00:14:21.247
or white answer in terms of whether they
align with what you think about the topic.
00:14:21.764 --> 00:14:27.058
So even though money is one of these
topics that people argue a lot about in
00:14:27.060 --> 00:14:33.096
marriages, what's important is how you
argue, not what you're arguing about, and
00:14:33.097 --> 00:14:38.644
not whether you're on the same page, but
how you resolve conflict when it arises.
00:14:38.964 --> 00:14:46.400
Taboo topics and using those to get
into storytelling about how someone's
00:14:46.401 --> 00:14:51.834
belief system was shaped, especially
at a young age, is really this kind
00:14:51.834 --> 00:14:57.945
of gateway to making taboo topics
a vehicle for deeper connection.
00:14:58.458 --> 00:15:01.060
So several things there that I
really like, that talking about
00:15:01.060 --> 00:15:04.007
topics that can be challenging
actually deepen the relationship.
00:15:04.374 --> 00:15:08.693
And a great way to do it is
through asking questions designed
00:15:08.694 --> 00:15:09.776
for people to explain why.
00:15:09.800 --> 00:15:10.507
Tell stories.
00:15:10.517 --> 00:15:14.051
Help me understand how you came to this
rather than what it is you believe.
00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.509
We had Wendy De La Rosa on, and we
talked a lot about money, and, and
00:15:17.510 --> 00:15:21.161
she had similar advice, that talking
about money in her case, but in all
00:15:21.163 --> 00:15:25.009
these topics, it's really an act of
demonstrating care and concern, and
00:15:25.011 --> 00:15:26.592
that's what deepens those relationships.
00:15:26.868 --> 00:15:31.851
And I love the idea of just soliciting
stories from people that allow you then
00:15:31.853 --> 00:15:33.894
to have, again, deeper conversations.
00:15:34.222 --> 00:15:35.182
Really good advice.
00:15:36.352 --> 00:15:37.774
Well, Rachel, you've been here before.
00:15:38.064 --> 00:15:41.952
You know that before we end, I
ask everybody three questions.
00:15:42.228 --> 00:15:46.238
One I make up just for you, and two
I've been asking people for a long time.
00:15:46.238 --> 00:15:49.232
And feel free to repeat what you've
said before or come up with different
00:15:49.232 --> 00:15:50.744
answers from our, your previous visit.
00:15:51.085 --> 00:15:51.930
Are you ready for these?
00:15:52.010 --> 00:15:52.814
Absolutely.
00:15:52.905 --> 00:15:53.714
Excellent.
00:15:54.258 --> 00:15:58.891
As a matchmaker, your clients go out on
dates every night all over the world,
00:15:59.214 --> 00:16:04.391
and the date outcome entirely hinges on
them having a good or bad conversation.
00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.674
How do you evaluate a successful
or unsuccessful date when you're
00:16:08.674 --> 00:16:12.229
not there yourself and you're just
listening in to what they tell you?
00:16:12.252 --> 00:16:14.935
How do you assess a good conversation?
00:16:15.493 --> 00:16:16.828
Oh, I love that question.
00:16:16.939 --> 00:16:23.131
The truth is, I have one simple
question that I reflect back to them,
00:16:23.329 --> 00:16:30.180
and I ask them, "What side of you
did they bring out?" So what I'm not
00:16:30.222 --> 00:16:33.915
asking is information-based questions.
00:16:33.974 --> 00:16:39.925
I am not asking, "Did you like
them?" Or, "What information did you
00:16:39.925 --> 00:16:44.257
learn about them?" Or, "Was there a
spark?" You know, those are typical
00:16:44.257 --> 00:16:47.746
questions that your friends might ask
you when you get back from a date.
00:16:48.127 --> 00:16:53.661
I'm asking, "What side of you did
they bring out?" to help me determine
00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:55.177
if this was a good or bad date.
00:16:55.704 --> 00:17:03.048
So if their answer is something like, "He
brought out my playful side," or maybe,
00:17:03.507 --> 00:17:08.472
"She brought out my confident side,"
then I know it was a successful date.
00:17:08.862 --> 00:17:13.271
But if their answer was something
more like, "Well, actually, he brought
00:17:13.271 --> 00:17:18.098
out my insecure side," or, "No, no,
she brought out my competitive side,"
00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:20.060
that's when I know it didn't go well.
00:17:20.702 --> 00:17:23.649
I really like that question
for assessing conversation, not
00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:25.023
just on dates, but in general.
00:17:25.023 --> 00:17:27.587
You know, what part of yourself
showed up or was able to be
00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:29.395
shown off in the conversation?
00:17:29.811 --> 00:17:32.354
And I think we can all do that ourselves.
00:17:32.355 --> 00:17:35.893
We don't need to just go to somebody who's
an expert like you and think about that.
00:17:36.284 --> 00:17:37.121
I really like that.
00:17:37.123 --> 00:17:38.590
I appreciate that question.
00:17:39.312 --> 00:17:43.423
Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire, and why?
00:17:44.098 --> 00:17:48.735
I've thought about this since the
last time I was on the show, and
00:17:48.802 --> 00:17:53.454
I'm gonna tell you about a personal
friend of mine named Katrina.
00:17:53.521 --> 00:17:59.943
And the reason I admire her so much is
that she always makes me feel good when
00:17:59.943 --> 00:18:05.621
I talk to her, and she does two specific
things that always make me feel good.
00:18:06.036 --> 00:18:12.337
First of all, she has a signature
expression that she uses all the
00:18:12.337 --> 00:18:18.432
time, and the expression is, "It's not
lost on me." So she'll say something
00:18:18.432 --> 00:18:23.813
like, "It's not lost on me that you
have an early morning tomorrow and
00:18:23.823 --> 00:18:26.049
you didn't cancel our dinner tonight.
00:18:26.483 --> 00:18:30.225
I really appreciate that you came
out and spent this time with me."
00:18:30.485 --> 00:18:33.927
So she's just finding a way to
show appreciation, and it makes
00:18:33.928 --> 00:18:37.038
me feel so good, especially
when it's something so minor.
00:18:37.053 --> 00:18:41.947
You know, it's not lost on her
that I didn't cancel our date.
00:18:41.947 --> 00:18:46.793
Like, that's a pretty low bar, but
here she is feeling so appreciative.
00:18:47.125 --> 00:18:50.847
So I think that expression is something
that everybody should use more of.
00:18:51.318 --> 00:18:56.960
And then the second thing she does
is she leaves a lot of voice notes
00:18:56.986 --> 00:18:59.576
for me instead of texting me.
00:19:00.106 --> 00:19:07.616
And I think this is a really underutilized
feature on our phones because it's
00:19:07.655 --> 00:19:11.835
not only unique from everybody else
that's texting you, but it's more
00:19:12.009 --> 00:19:16.292
personal, and it creates an emotional
connection when I hear her voice.
00:19:16.656 --> 00:19:21.283
And so I would say 8 out of 10
times that I communicate with her
00:19:21.522 --> 00:19:23.684
is her leaving me a voice note.
00:19:23.941 --> 00:19:28.062
Now, I also appreciate that
it's not as intrusive as a phone
00:19:28.065 --> 00:19:31.808
call because that would be her
interrupting something else I'm doing.
00:19:31.818 --> 00:19:35.141
But, you know, the voice note is
just that beautiful, happy medium
00:19:35.157 --> 00:19:39.764
where I get personal and emotional
connection with her, but it's on
00:19:39.765 --> 00:19:41.533
my own time when I listen to it.
00:19:41.543 --> 00:19:46.219
So I think those two things, appreciation
and emotional connection, are really
00:19:46.254 --> 00:19:48.540
what make her a superstar communicator.
00:19:49.148 --> 00:19:52.396
I'll start by saying it's not lost on
me that you spent a little time thinking
00:19:52.397 --> 00:19:54.301
about this deeply, and I appreciate that.
00:19:54.331 --> 00:19:58.559
And taking the time to express
appreciation and finding a unique way
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.246
to connect with somebody where your
true voice, in the case of a voice
00:20:01.248 --> 00:20:02.970
memo, comes out, I appreciate that.
00:20:03.588 --> 00:20:07.399
Well, the final question, Rachel, what
are the first three ingredients that go
00:20:07.399 --> 00:20:10.088
into a successful communication recipe?
00:20:10.855 --> 00:20:12.631
The first ingredient is mood.
00:20:12.881 --> 00:20:18.052
I think not enough people think
about how they make someone feel
00:20:18.322 --> 00:20:19.965
when they're talking to them.
00:20:19.996 --> 00:20:27.299
And so the idea here is that if somebody
says something to you like, "I love
00:20:27.323 --> 00:20:32.188
to ski," you might respond by saying
something like, "Me too," if you're the
00:20:32.188 --> 00:20:37.466
mirror, or you might respond by saying
something factual, a, a question like,
00:20:37.547 --> 00:20:42.103
"Where's your favorite place to ski?"
That would be a very legitimate response.
00:20:42.365 --> 00:20:48.971
But a mood-based response to somebody who
says they like to ski is more like saying
00:20:48.976 --> 00:20:54.079
to them, "Tell me the last time you went
skiing and you really loved the day."
00:20:54.572 --> 00:21:01.723
And that kind of evokes a time for them
when they felt good, and you're invoking
00:21:01.751 --> 00:21:09.702
a positive memory by asking a question
that is focused on them telling a story.
00:21:09.813 --> 00:21:16.532
It's promoting connection, and it's
not garnering information, but really
00:21:16.953 --> 00:21:22.067
creating a moment between the two of you
where they're affiliating the positive
00:21:22.082 --> 00:21:27.673
mood they are calling up from their
memory with almost, like, conflating
00:21:27.681 --> 00:21:31.274
it with you because you're the one
that's experiencing that with them.
00:21:31.801 --> 00:21:36.514
The second ingredient I would say
is a acronym I use all the time,
00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.106
which is DBB, don't be boring.
00:21:40.627 --> 00:21:46.993
I think not enough people use
DBB, don't be boring, as a lens
00:21:47.014 --> 00:21:49.585
to filter their conversation.
00:21:49.990 --> 00:21:56.139
And if you can start to remember
that every time you go to answer a
00:21:56.139 --> 00:22:01.444
question in a conversation, first
do a quick check, "Is this boring?"
00:22:01.665 --> 00:22:05.824
And if it is, come up with something
more interesting because boredom
00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:07.611
is just the enemy of conversation.
00:22:08.156 --> 00:22:12.964
And last, I guess the ingredient I
would say is probably vulnerability.
00:22:13.370 --> 00:22:17.650
Not just showing the polished
version of yourself, but really
00:22:17.653 --> 00:22:21.734
telling a story that's real and
humble, maybe self-deprecating.
00:22:21.962 --> 00:22:24.172
You could talk about a
challenge you're having.
00:22:24.181 --> 00:22:26.443
You could talk about
an embarrassing moment.
00:22:26.661 --> 00:22:28.105
You could talk about a regret.
00:22:28.489 --> 00:22:32.274
And it's not about bringing the mood
down or being negative, but really
00:22:32.274 --> 00:22:36.818
just being aware that the polished
version of you where everything's
00:22:36.821 --> 00:22:41.220
great and you're amazing is a
lost opportunity for connection.
00:22:41.918 --> 00:22:45.601
All of your three ingredients
have to do with connection.
00:22:46.060 --> 00:22:50.336
I really like the idea of setting the
mood through the things you ask and
00:22:50.345 --> 00:22:54.662
the interaction you have, and that
mood does transfer from if I'm having
00:22:54.662 --> 00:22:58.420
a good time telling you a story,
I'm having a good time with you.
00:22:58.738 --> 00:23:03.113
And this notion of as you begin
to respond in a conversation,
00:23:03.423 --> 00:23:04.939
you have choices of what to say.
00:23:04.946 --> 00:23:06.559
Choose the option that's less boring.
00:23:07.066 --> 00:23:10.796
And then finally, being vulnerable,
being authentic, really powerful.
00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:14.131
Rachel, like all of our conversations,
I learn so much from you.
00:23:14.172 --> 00:23:15.551
I really appreciate it.
00:23:15.632 --> 00:23:20.638
This notion of thinking first and
planning before we go into conversation,
00:23:20.988 --> 00:23:25.291
considering how we bridge into the
topics we want to have, and how we
00:23:25.293 --> 00:23:28.700
can bring out the best in others
and ourselves, really important.
00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:29.125
Thank you.
00:23:29.531 --> 00:23:30.421
Thanks for having me.
00:23:30.421 --> 00:23:31.821
It was a pleasure as always.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.502
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think
00:23:35.503 --> 00:23:37.179
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
00:23:37.547 --> 00:23:41.203
To learn more from Rachel Greenwald,
please listen to episode 217.
00:23:41.713 --> 00:23:46.115
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
00:23:46.370 --> 00:23:50.466
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
00:23:50.932 --> 00:23:53.962
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