| Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript
| 00:00.00 | Jamie | I will do the introduction then hello and welcome back to the right and wrong podcast now emma being the hot commodity that she is her time is in very high demand and that means she can't always make it to our recordings. But. I'm very excited to introduce our first guest host you might remember her from a previous episode or from the exciting launch of her debut novel every line of you ladies and gentlemen. It's Naomi gibson.
| 00:00.00 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 00:30.34 | Naomi Gibson | Hi. Thank you so much for and inviting me to guest host I'm really excited I'm gonna do my best to um, do emma proud but I won't be attempting to do her newcastle accent. Ah, a yeah, that's what I thought of. So. It's my great pleasure to introduce this week's guest and he was offering as a glimpse into a pocket of publishing that we haven't heard much from on the podcast and so please welcome professional freelance editor paul martin hi paul welcome to the show. Good. Thank you. Um, yeah, so we're just really excited to have you here and we wondered if you could kick off by explaining what sort of literature that you edit.
| 00:42.97 | Jamie | Probably best don't offend anyone.
| 01:01.97 | Paul Martin | Um, hi know me hi Jamie.
| 01:03.87 | Jamie | Hello welcome.
| 01:15.30 | Paul Martin | Sure, um, that's both a short and long question all at once anything is the short answer. My primary experience is education materials so textbooks and teaching resources for schools. Ah, but I also do nonfiction and fiction work for independent authors for trade publishing so on and so forth and I also review battlefield tours and ah school trips for exl amongst other things. So I'm well and truly a Jack of all trades when it comes to editorial matters.
| 01:21.50 | Jamie | Nailed it.
| 01:35.39 | Naomi Gibson | Her.
| 01:45.69 | Naomi Gibson | Wow.
| 01:47.82 | Jamie | Goodness I was about to say is there anything you don't do oh.
| 01:51.61 | Paul Martin | Maths I.
| 01:53.16 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, yeah, good choice. Good choice. Oh well, that is and that's amazing. Wow So I get the vibe that history is um, maybe your special speciality if I can say it properly.
| 02:05.19 | Jamie | Yes.
| 02:05.71 | Paul Martin | Yes, that's right? Um I'm a history postgraduate so that is very much my focus if I can get my hands on it.
| 02:11.85 | Naomi Gibson | Amazing. So history's obviously quite um, like a broad topic so is it is there any specific area that you specialize in or just history generally or.
| 02:22.53 | Paul Martin | Ah, this is quite an amusing question to answer really? Um, I'm a medieval and early modernist. So my favorite subject areas are things like the tudors and the wars of the roses. Um, but ironically i'm. Also almost better known as it were for working on twentieth century history because that's where a lot of the school curriculum covers and I've actually had a couple of vision guides published on Nazi germany in the cold war. So again, quite ah, quite a wide range of periods covered.
| 02:33.85 | Naomi Gibson | Okay.
| 02:34.14 | Jamie | Um, okay.
| 02:47.99 | Naomi Gibson | Wow! Yeah, absolutely.
| 02:51.91 | Jamie | Oh I see when you do um, the textbooks. Obviously there needs to be I mean hopefully a level of historical accuracy involved. Ah when you for those kinds of things. Do Do you need to have a very deep knowledge of that sort of subject area or is it sort of thing where you could research on the go.
| 03:15.91 | Paul Martin | So It largely depends on the project and the sort of point you're coming into the project as there's various different stages of editing and things like fact checks take place at different stages and then there's sort the more developmental editing and then there's spot checks and cross checks of a copy edit. It certainly helps. Um, and it helps to be able to spot things that don't look right? but unless you're doing a yeah systematic fact check then it's more a sort of sense. Check So You don't need to be an expert in the subject area. It's more about picking up on the nuances. So For example, when you. Trim things down to a generalization. They can very rapidly become inaccurate. If. For example, you say everyone in Tudor London did this or did that you know you start to look a bit more foolish. So It's yes, the tricks of the trade is to look out for things like that and but yeah at certain levels. There are fact checks. But. That's easily easily done by researching on the job.
| 03:20.98 | Jamie | Right.
| 03:23.37 | Naomi Gibson | Um.
| 03:54.69 | Naomi Gibson | Right. Hi.
| 04:00.39 | Jamie | Yeah, yeah.
| 04:06.84 | Naomi Gibson | I kind.
| 04:13.13 | Naomi Gibson | Wow. Okay, so is that is that your primary job as an editor. Then to fact, check or what kind of you know? sorry I'll try and think out my question probably. So Do you do? Ah, generally do you do a lot of fact, checking when when you're editing or do do other kinds of things.
| 04:24.41 | Paul Martin | So.
| 04:33.14 | Paul Martin | So um I do primarily 3 different roles. Um I do development edits which involves very much early stages working hands on with the author um to improve the manuscript and get it as good as it can be and. Clearly match the brief as best as it can and then there's the copy edit and the proofread all of which involve different levels. Um, a fact check can be asked for any of those stages but it's usually a separate process that happens alongside say a copy edit or a proofread. And so I don't always do a fact check on a project. But if it's part something that I've briefed to then? yes I will do and I have done on quite a few projects.
| 04:37.91 | Naomi Gibson | And.
| 04:52.43 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 05:03.22 | Naomi Gibson | And.
| 05:09.12 | Naomi Gibson | Why? okay.
| 05:18.62 | Naomi Gibson | Okay, so can we just circle back to that thing where you were talking about um the brief. So when you're saying you get given a brief So that's presumably from the publisher. Yeah.
| 05:19.67 | Jamie | Right.
| 05:32.89 | Paul Martin | Yes, that's right or the independent author depending on who's contacted me. So.
| 05:36.43 | Naomi Gibson | Sure. Okay, and so is is it the um is it the case where the publisher might um sorry is my first time hosting. Ah. Ah, so so is it a case where the publisher might um, go approach an author and ask them to write the book or is it the case where the author will have written the book and approached the publisher.
| 05:51.39 | Jamie | It's fine. It's fine. Don't worry about you doing great.
| 06:04.21 | Paul Martin | So for education publishing. It's generally a case of the publisher will get a group of authors together to write a suite of books. So For example, all the history textbooks you need for an age range like gcse. Um, so they tend to contract a bunch of authors and get them writing as a cooperative. Um, for fiction publishing. It's generally speaking that the the author will go either through an agent or direct to to a publishing house and get picked up through the the vetting process.
| 06:12.15 | Naomi Gibson | And ah.
| 06:22.29 | Naomi Gibson | Right? okay.
| 06:29.60 | Naomi Gibson | Um, yes, very familiar with the vetting process on the fiction side.
| 06:38.83 | Jamie | So in terms of um, the publishers obviously involved and there's a brief involved to what you're you're writing you're writing books for Schools. So How much do you have to sort of keep an eye on what the exam board changes. Ah, sort of because I mean I don't know how frequently those change but there are obviously big shifts that happen at certain points. How how important is it that you keep an eye on that and then have to like factor these things into the authors and the publishers I guess.
| 06:54.54 | Naomi Gibson | And I.
| 07:09.40 | Paul Martin | So um, I mean there's several questions wrapped up in 1 there really? Um I used to work in a house for pearson who owned exl so a lot of my work was very closely tied to the specifications that they published. And their specifications tend to go through roughly a five -year lifecycle before they're sort of reveetted or if a new government comes in with an agenda they might make and adapt changes and so forth. So at one stage I think it was in two thousand and eight there was a new history. So curriculum. They then tweaked it so I had to reado all the textbooks for 2010 then again the following year because they tweaked it a bit more and then by the time we finished all the tweaks it was time for the news spec and say yeah government drives a lot of changes. Um, but generally speaking sorry go ahead.
| 07:13.88 | Jamie | Yes.
| 07:19.50 | Jamie | Oh right? okay.
| 07:19.74 | Naomi Gibson | I hear.
| 07:28.87 | Naomi Gibson | Right.
| 07:46.41 | Naomi Gibson | Oh well. Oh no, that sounds so stressful.
| 07:49.87 | Jamie | Ah course what in terms of when you say tweak it it is it as in like are you making minor changes or is it quite big changes.
| 08:04.28 | Paul Martin | So the major changes normally await the end of the cycle and then come in sort of at the end of the 5 ive-stage process if there's a particular new thing. So for example, our current gcses. 1 of the big new things is something called the historical environment. Which hasn't really existed before and that's all about studying a specific um subject within history in a specific location. So for example, Medicine specifically on the western front in the world war that kind of thing.
| 08:04.65 | Naomi Gibson | No.
| 08:12.40 | Jamie | Right.
| 08:23.29 | Naomi Gibson | Okay.
| 08:31.76 | Jamie | Ok.
| 08:36.45 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 08:36.76 | Jamie | Oh right? Okay, okay so that is that's a sort of whole new set of chapters and and and things to go into a book. Yeah.
| 08:43.45 | Paul Martin | Exactly and so they'd create new resources to cover that or and and adapt the rest of the resources with any minor changes sometimes it's just to make things clearer in the spec or sometimes they change the level of the assessment or how the assessment is broken down into different chunks. Absolutely I mean depending on the project generally speaking the publisher will supply you with copies of the upto datepe specs and if there is a change if it's changing from 1 spec to another 1 they'll up. They'll give you a list of the changes that have been made and you just make sure that. All the changes do what they need to do to to reflect the latest version of the Spec so you don't have to necessarily be fully up to speed on on every minutiae before the project starts. You'll be brought up to speed quite quickly but it certainly helps to know the specs inside out which for addxl and. Slightly less for a q I do so yeah I mean I worked very closely with the endorsement team in Edxl so that's definitely a bonus.
| 09:02.36 | Jamie | Gosh You must be waiting for their updates with bated breath. Just.
| 09:03.57 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 09:35.16 | Jamie | Sure sure.
| 09:35.45 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 09:42.27 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 09:42.50 | Jamie | Okay, well, that's got to be helpful.
| 09:49.99 | Naomi Gibson | So do you think they also cycle on I was going to say do think it varies quite quite um, a lot between exam boards then between Akira and Duckxel and because I guess they have other ones like in wales and Scotland For example.
| 09:50.60 | Jamie | And now you go ahead.
| 10:04.75 | Paul Martin | Yes, there are there are differences between and the subject specs across the exam board. But there are also quite a lot of similarities and crossovers. So for example, um, e exel nazi germany starts. Um. Pretty much um, bang on nineteen the end of the the world war so 1918 onwards? Um, and it ends very much and before the second world war starts really whereas in acua. Um, they cover from slightly before that and sort of. Early german history and then they go right through to the end of the second world war. Yes, absolutely and it all depends on so each chunk of a spec they have to sort of weigh up against the other sections of the spec and the timelines have to be similar. So if you're studying 1 subject. Um, rather than another you're still studying roughly the same sort of time period or the same level of complexity and so on and so forth which so studying several different you know, unrelated historical topics can be quite a challenge for the people who put specs together.
| 10:09.62 | Naomi Gibson | My.
| 10:28.10 | Naomi Gibson | Honor and asked. Okay.
| 10:44.14 | Jamie | Oh it's interesting. So we're all learning different things.
| 10:44.20 | Naomi Gibson | Okay.
| 11:09.30 | Jamie | Yeah.
| 11:17.70 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 11:17.90 | Jamie | Right? Yeah, so changing changing pace a little bit. You said you also do fiction um, would but would you before we before we go fully on fiction. Would you say that the the school staff the textbook stuff that's much more your bread and butter.
| 11:23.78 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 11:25.54 | Paul Martin | Yes.
| 11:35.87 | Jamie | Or is it more of a sort of fifty fifty right.
| 11:36.80 | Paul Martin | It is very much my bread and butter. So I um I spent I don't want to know how many years in-house um about um, probably about 15 or so years in-house which is where I got most of my training as a education based editor. Um, so that is very much where my primary expertise is and since I went freelance in 2017 I've then started breaking out into other forms of editorial as well.
| 11:54.15 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 11:55.35 | Jamie | Okay.
| 12:04.98 | Jamie | I see so so doing fiction stuff is is newer for you than than doing the other stuff and and oh well, that's good. So interesting question. Um, and I was talking to Naomi about this.
| 12:10.50 | Paul Martin | Yes, absolutely. But I've always been an avid reader.
| 12:13.83 | Naomi Gibson | Um, yeah, yeah.
| 12:23.71 | Jamie | Before because Niomi's experience when she was working with chicken house on her Book. Ah is you have like the editing is is done by 1 person. The copy editing is done by another person you know and there's lots of different people working on different parts whereas it sounds like with with the stuff that you've been doing. You seem to do it all like you you just you break it down to 3 different parts and you go at it is that right.
| 12:46.41 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 12:47.84 | Paul Martin | No, so I do all the stages but not necessarily on the same project. Yeah, yeah, absolutely the more pairs of eyes you get on a project the better because there's always something that someone misses.
| 12:52.41 | Jamie | Oh okay.
| 12:52.84 | Naomi Gibson | Oh okay, that makes sense. Yeah, okay. Um, that does make sense. Yeah.
| 13:01.39 | Jamie | Oh yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, so on any given project is it is it. You could do any of those things but you only ever do 1 perhaps 2 Okay, we don't want to make generalizations right? I get it.
| 13:11.57 | Paul Martin | Only ever is a strong term. But yeah, essentially that's right? And yeah I mean sometimes ah publishers and packages just find it convenient to use the same person throughout particularly if it's a particularly niche subject or whatever and they want their expertise. And it is useful to have the familiarity but it is also as I say very useful to have an extra fresh pair of eyes.
| 13:22.43 | Jamie | Okay.
| 13:23.40 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, that makes sense.
| 13:29.92 | Jamie | Yeah, yes, yeah I think in an ideal world. You probably want a group of people doing that different kind of roles in the editing process. It will pick up on different things.
| 13:33.78 | Naomi Gibson | Her.
| 13:41.76 | Paul Martin | Absolutely any project that I manage I will always try and ensure that the development editor copy editor and proofreader are all different people.
| 13:49.58 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 13:49.68 | Jamie | Ah, that's that that seems wise um so with the fiction in terms of process. How how different is it editing fiction versus editing nonfiction textbooks.
| 14:03.64 | Paul Martin | Ah, very is is the short ah answer so a development edit on an education project is quite often very tied to the specification particularly if it's an exam focus. So it's it's gcse or a level. For example. So you're more or less reading it alongside the specification to make sure that it covers everything and you're very much thinking about a very narrow sort of age range and a very set criteria of what boxes it needs to tick whereas as I'm sure you're aware from your own reading and writing fiction doesn't really have. Ah, stringent set of rules in that way. Basically the main rules of writing are learn the rules so you can break them absolutely and there are um, a lot of useful guidance and things to think about when you're writing. But for every rule. There's an exception where it works really well to break that rule.
| 14:06.42 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, ah.
| 14:18.96 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 14:24.95 | Naomi Gibson | Okay.
| 14:31.68 | Naomi Gibson | Her.
| 14:31.99 | Jamie | And.
| 14:40.64 | Naomi Gibson | First.
| 14:45.23 | Jamie | Yes, exactly yeah you need to know it enough so that you can break all the rules.
| 14:51.80 | Naomi Gibson | Yep.
| 15:00.27 | Naomi Gibson | Remember.
| 15:00.87 | Jamie | Yeah, yeah, yeah of course I mean yeah I can't I with my writing group. We often sit down and and you look at all these kind of courses and and sort of prescribed ways of writing online and the easiest thing to do is think of like 10
| 15:17.99 | Jamie | Classics or bestsellers that break every single 1 of these rules which is a was a funny, a fun game to play but um, go ahead.
| 15:20.40 | Paul Martin | Absolutely.
| 15:26.20 | Naomi Gibson | Um, ah yeah before you would so before you were talking about um, having such ah a a stringent brief from the exam board is it ever a case where they haven't approved a textbook or rejected it or for any reason.
| 15:45.84 | Naomi Gibson | Um, you know what? what kind of things happen there if they don't like it.
| 15:49.28 | Paul Martin | So I think the first thing I should say in answer to that is I've never had a book rejected. Go be yeah ah very embarrassing if if it had happened to give my yeah ties with the exam boards. Ah it does happen. Um, sometimes publishers. Try and submit too early. Um, and it's just not polished enough to get through the endorsement. What rarely happens is it gets an out and out refusal. What usually happens is they'll come back with here are all the essential things that need to be fixed for this to be considered and here's. Other things that were've spotted or suggestions or whatever to make it better because the point of endorsement at the end of the day is to make it as fit for purpose and as good as it can be for the customers that are going reusing it and to therefore support the yeah yeah, the exam board and the the qualification. Um, so generally they'll work with the reviewer. You know they'll go through that feedback make make the tweaks and then resubmit and then this resubmission will presumably be endorsed and accepted. Sometimes they either don't or aren't willing to make enough changes or there's. Simply too many problems within it and it will get rejected but that is quite rare. Yeah, and also if. Exactly exactly and in yeah and but and refusal and endorsement doesn't mean you can't publish it. It just means it won't bear the logo saying this is fit for purpose. And a lot of companies just decide to publish without endorsement because it's just easier in terms of time scaleles and work process. Yeah I mean it. It's certainly I think it's certainly a nice thing to do certain things don't need endorsement just due to the nature of that they're not as strongly tied. In terms of assessment and things like that. But I'm I'm pretty certain most teachers would prefer an endorsed resource than a non-endorsed resource unless there's a particular publisher that they really favor for whatever reason.
| 15:55.19 | Jamie | Ah.
| 15:55.25 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, of course not of course not.
| 16:00.83 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, and so.
| 16:10.36 | Naomi Gibson | And came.
| 16:27.12 | Naomi Gibson | Right.
| 16:36.14 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah. Her.
| 16:52.87 | Naomi Gibson | Or her.
| 17:03.22 | Naomi Gibson | Wow. Okay, so they.
| 17:05.10 | Jamie | Yeah I was going to say it must be. It must be a rare recurrencece that that happens because if the if the techbook's already there I'm assume they'd would rather just keep editing it until it's up to so up to scratch.
| 17:15.78 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, they must have put in some money at that point. Yeah.
| 17:26.13 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, okay.
| 17:29.92 | Jamie | Ah.
| 17:32.84 | Naomi Gibson | Okay, and.
| 17:39.45 | Jamie | That's a little bit concerning for.
| 17:46.40 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 17:46.55 | Jamie | Okay.
| 18:00.19 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, that makes sense So the exam board actually holds quite a lot of power then don't they in this particular line of work.
| 18:00.50 | Jamie | Okay, show.
| 18:06.56 | Paul Martin | They can do um but I mean yes in terms of control of the spec. But also it's within their interests to support. Um, third -party blishers publishing for their qualification because. More resources means a richer learning experience and therefore a stronger qualification.
| 18:12.30 | Naomi Gibson | Her.
| 18:23.46 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, 30
| 18:25.40 | Jamie | Oh yeah, that makes sense. But so you've been doing this for ah longer than you would care to remember. Ah, my question is okay there it is That's a long time. Ah my question is all that time ago.
| 18:33.93 | Paul Martin | Nineteen years in total here. Yeah.
| 18:36.31 | Naomi Gibson | Oh wow.
| 18:45.10 | Jamie | What was what was it that the first kind of made you want to do this or how did you sort of find your way into this as ah as a full-time career. Oh excellent. Thank god.
| 18:51.71 | Naomi Gibson | Um. Ah.
| 18:54.83 | Paul Martin | Good question. Um, fortunately 1 I do know the answer to and like many of these stories which I'm sure you've heard before it starts with a a little boy who basically wanted to become an author. So yep, there is ah that element to it. Um. I had I fancied myself as a bit of a poet and so I've had ah a handful of poems and a short story published in young writers anthologies before I went to university in q and yeah, when I got to university um, whilst I was deciding what I wanted to do in my life post academia. Um. I did a course on publishing and editing which was focused very much on how you get a manuscript to an agent and get it published and sort of the editing process. You might go through as an author but through that course and desperately thinking what am I going to do for a living when I can no longer stay in university and and spend my time reading. Um I realize that. Editing was an obvious answer. So I started looking for editorial work and I was very fortunate in that 3 months after I finished university I found a job advert that accepted me and started my first job in publishing for a small publishing company called badger publishing which is. A ah schools publisher who started out publishing or putting together boxes of library books for schools. So like the best poetry collection for nine to 11 year olds for example that kind of thing and then they started producing their own teaching resources to go alongside and then they decided to start. Crunching out into textbooks and more teaching materials hired a publisher in six months down the line. They hired me as an editor and between the 2 of us we created about 500 titles in about 6 years yeah Yeah, it's say. Yeah, it was um, it was a fantastic experience because what you learn when you go to ah 1 of the major players is of course when you're working for a big publisher the budgets go up the scope and size of the projects go up but your individual role is a lot smaller whereas for Badger I literally did everything. So. Um, every school subject more or less. We published for both primary and secondary level. Um, so I was working on a full range of subjects including um, reading materials for reluctant teen readers so sort of 30 page Novellas things like that tutor own adventure books which was very exciting. As well as the more traditional textbooks and teaching materials. But then when I changed jobs and started working for a big player I was in a subject team and very much did 1 role within that subject team and only worked on those subject areas. So um.
| 19:04.81 | Jamie | Okay.
| 19:19.21 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, that's amazing.
| 19:19.28 | Jamie | Oh amazing.
| 19:31.66 | Naomi Gibson | Um.
| 19:39.29 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 20:06.79 | Naomi Gibson | Oh it's great.
| 20:19.55 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 20:34.78 | Naomi Gibson | Wow, That's impressive Gosh You must have been busy. Ah.
| 20:35.24 | Jamie | Good Lord so.
| 20:52.58 | Naomi Gibson | Sure. Okay.
| 21:05.48 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 21:16.81 | Naomi Gibson | Done.
| 21:25.57 | Naomi Gibson | Hers.
| 21:37.28 | Paul Martin | Yeah, it has its benefits and its drawbacks working for the bigger players compared to the smaller publishers.
| 21:40.87 | Naomi Gibson | While.
| 21:41.60 | Jamie | Yeah, as I'm sure with with same similar things with across the kind of whole industry wherever you're at we've spoken to authors who have published with big publishers versus small and and it's you know you get a lot. It's more like you get a lot more freedom with some and you and but you get a lot more so security with others and it's.
| 21:58.60 | Naomi Gibson | And her.
| 21:59.43 | Paul Martin | Absolutely.
| 22:00.00 | Jamie | Ups and downs all the way through my question for you is I wasn't entirely familiar with this qualification. Ah, but the chartered institute of editing and proof reading the C I E P when did you get that at what point in your along that kind of career run that you just described. Did you get that.
| 22:09.73 | Paul Martin | I.
| 22:19.68 | Jamie | And um, how important is that to people sort of looking to hire you and also people in within your industry to progress.
| 22:27.14 | Naomi Gibson | Man.
| 22:27.68 | Paul Martin | So the c iep is basically they sort of hold the torch for editorial standards in the freelance world and the publishing world particularly for the yeah uk. It's a uk-based body. Um, and most certainly most of the major publishers I think when they're looking for editors. The directory. There is a good place to go to and not only does it list qualified editors with experience who have been vetted by the c iep they also run training and so on and so Forth. Um. So they're a really good place to go to. They also have sort of suggested rates so you can get a really good idea of the industry and where you're at within the industry and I first and encountered them really or ah sought them out when I became a freelancer in 2017 so 1 of the things I did when I went freelance was to. Contact them apply for membership and when you apply for membership, you go through an application proposal where there's different different levels of editor that you can aim for um and you have reams of forms to fill in and give them references for and so on and so forth. About your experiences so they can see how unexperienced an editor you are and what sort of level you're at and what skills you can offer um and then you pitch that to them and ah I pitched mine in um, waited for them to vet it and they came back to me and said we think you're. Actually at this level which was 1 higher than I'd applied for which was lovely and just said yeah if you can provide a little bit of extra information on here and there and the other we'll be very happy to accept you at this level. So um I dug out that extra information for them and so now I am the heady heights of an advanced professional. Um, which so advanced professional is the top level. Um, you're embarrassingly asking me while I don't have the info in front of me to to get the exact level names correct here. And but there's if I remember rightly there's four different levels sort an associate level and then sort of um, a professional level is' the level before me. Um, yeah, that's right? Yeah, absolutely yeah.
| 22:36.20 | Naomi Gibson | And her.
| 23:23.70 | Naomi Gibson | No.
| 23:54.53 | Jamie | Oh that's a nice surprise.
| 23:55.12 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, that's amazing. Awesome! ah.
| 24:02.99 | Naomi Gibson | Brilliant.
| 24:10.12 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, that's amazing.
| 24:10.60 | Jamie | Ah, and what are what are the levels within C iep.
| 24:21.14 | Jamie | Ah, we got him. Okay.
| 24:21.89 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, oh Jamie ah.
| 24:35.32 | Naomi Gibson | Aha.
| 24:35.50 | Jamie | So that's what you applied in as a professional level. Okay, right? and and the standards are high so anyone listening looking to get go look for a someone someone to do freelance if Paul's busy. Ah they should go to the this this website they should look for this qualification is.
| 24:39.38 | Naomi Gibson | Wow.
| 24:48.20 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 24:54.61 | Jamie | Do you think that's ah, that's a good place to start.
| 24:54.83 | Paul Martin | Absolutely yeah accreditation by C Iep is a really solid basis because you know you're getting a professional and if you have any issues you know you've got a body that you can contact and talk to about said issues. But I can't imagine you would have any issues with anyone from there.
| 24:56.27 | Naomi Gibson | Ah ha.
| 25:06.12 | Jamie | Are brilliant. Yeah is it and is it across you go ahead and you had not me.
| 25:06.90 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, that's helpful. So do you find a lot of sorry you I was going to say. Do you find a lot of your clients through that portal as well.
| 25:19.70 | Paul Martin | Yes, although it's a funny 1 because I'm terrible at asking my clients where did you find me which I really should do more often. But yes I've certainly got a substantial amount of work from having a directory entry and the important thing about being advanced professional. Is that you get more prominence on their directory. Um, by the time you get to the so I think that really helps as well. So yeah, it's it's been massive and also they they'd run conferences every year and produce materials that members can read and encourage you to continue with your cpd. You know throughout your professions. You don't just sit on your laurels and you stay up to date with sort of industry practices.
| 25:24.82 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 25:34.37 | Naomi Gibson | Aha.
| 25:44.12 | Naomi Gibson | Um, and.
| 25:50.59 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah.
| 26:00.56 | Jamie | Oh brilliant. Yeah, that's that's and presumably they do. It's it's editing across all genres Mediums styles is it.
| 26:01.20 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, that is good. Yeah.
| 26:10.00 | Paul Martin | Absolutely yes, it is and you can search the directory depending on whether you want you know a fiction editor or a specific genre of fiction. Um, we all list on our directory entries the different subject or specialisms that we have and they can be as. Broad ranging or as narrow as you you can imagine or my sort of history specialisms are are up there on my profile. For example, whereas others will have specific genres of fiction or science fiction or whatever it is that they specialize in.
| 26:18.25 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 26:39.22 | Jamie | Sure Sure perfect and um, a little bit if you could share some of your wisdoms with ah with us and and the and the listeners editorial is is quite a glamorous role. A lot of people are trying to get into editorial. Wherever it may be How would you suggest?? um people trying to break into that editorial as a career would would start their journey.
| 26:41.24 | Naomi Gibson | Aha.
| 27:06.97 | Paul Martin | So aside from obviously walking into a job with a publishing company which is a really easy way to um, absolutely um, there are various places such as the publishing association such as c iep and others. That do courses on proof reading copy editing development editing you name it. There are there are courses out them and the ones I've mentioned are particularly highly rated ones and that is a good place to first of all establish whether you have the right skills and how good you are at at it and also whether it is something for you because. Of course the downside of editing is when you read for a living it means reading for pleasure. It kind of feels a bit like work. But if it's a good project then you know it doesn't matter and I have I'm very guilty of describing when I'm feeling flippant my job as reading for pleasure for a living It's obviously a lot more intense than that and a lot more goes into it than that and you do often end up having to read things in a lot more in a very different way and a lot more detail. But yeah, if you if you enjoy reading. It's certainly a good first step.
| 27:12.32 | Jamie | Um, yeah, if you can get the job just take it.
| 27:21.18 | Naomi Gibson | And.
| 27:48.77 | Jamie | Yeah.
| 27:48.81 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 28:07.47 | Naomi Gibson | Sure yeah.
| 28:11.78 | Jamie | Brilliant accident.
| 28:13.70 | Naomi Gibson | It must be great though when you get a a book that you do genuinely enjoy like from a fictional point of view and it's not just it's almost Okay, there's a lot to do but it's it's not quite as much work as you might have to do on something else.
| 28:25.98 | Paul Martin | Absolutely I mean there's there's 2 joys really as the the joy of a very good read and there's the joy of a project that you don't have to do huge amounts because the essence is already. There. It's always a massive challenge boxing. Ah, feedback when you're looking at something that's just unworkable, but we all know about the feedback sandwich so you know we all get trained on that 1 so if you're if you're offering constructive criticism. You have to make sure you've got the bun layers of nice comments surrounding the. The the less pleasant in this. Ah this context burger in the middle. Yes, absolutely the edited version.
| 28:31.23 | Naomi Gibson | No.
| 28:36.10 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, so yeah.
| 28:52.99 | Jamie | I'm sorry what's the feedback sandwich.
| 29:00.82 | Naomi Gibson | Ah.
| 29:06.11 | Jamie | Okay, oh I see Okay, okay, okay oh right? Well there you go Paul was giving us the nice version. He was sandwiaging the sandwich for us.
| 29:08.55 | Naomi Gibson | Have you never heard of it I've heard of it called the shit somewhere. Ah, because yeah, the the middle layer. Yeah yeah, he was. He's That's that that's the Pg version. Ah.
| 29:25.80 | Jamie | Oh amazing. Well that is so that's great advice. Anyone listening hopefully you can take that on and and um achieve your dreams of becoming an editor. Ah and that rounds off the interview and brings us on to the final question which for the first time ever. Naomi's going to ask.
| 29:41.10 | Naomi Gibson | I am so excited to ask this question and right paul well if you were stranded on a desert island what book would you want to have with you and you can only have 1 Ah.
| 29:51.64 | Paul Martin | So in in order to keep domestic bliss I should mention testament and the stars would obviously be my first choice which is my partner's freshly published debut novel. However.
| 30:04.79 | Jamie | Yes, Alex Beaumont testament at the stars. Go check it out and listen to our episode about with her. She was great.
| 30:07.39 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, definitely.
| 30:12.90 | Paul Martin | It's awesome. Thank you for that plug. However I have picked a slightly more suited to me and to the desert island book because not only is this a worthy read that I haven't got round to and the reason it's. My first choice is because I don't think I will ever get round to reading it unless I'm on a desert island but also um, due to the book I'm pretty certain if there was a shark I could bop it on the nose with this book and the shark wouldn't mess with me again. It is a hefty tome and it is andrew mars a history of the world.
| 30:28.90 | Jamie | Okay.
| 30:38.71 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, ah, okay, brilliant.
| 30:40.83 | Jamie | Ah yes I can confirm. It's a hefty time.
| 30:46.74 | Paul Martin | And I figure I could probably also use it to help getting to a palm tree by standing on it.
| 30:51.56 | Jamie | Yeah, yeah I mean it would help for sure.
| 30:51.92 | Naomi Gibson | Ah, paper here. Keep you entertained to help you out physically. Yeah I think it's ah it's a good choice and um, yup.
| 31:00.38 | Jamie | And the and the brief history of the world. You know that's you've got it start to finish. It's all the what what could you want imagine editing that but it's a great choice. It's ah it's a great choice for a lot of reasons but also testament to the stars. Um.
| 31:05.55 | Paul Martin | Absolutely it was a no-brainer I think.
| 31:16.80 | Naomi Gibson | Um, yeah, thank you.
| 31:20.00 | Jamie | Thank you so much Paul for for coming on. It's been really really great chatting with you. It's been so interesting. You've Ah, even you've opened our eyes to a whole new world of school boards textbooks and and and how it all works. It's so interesting. That's I mean that's always our goal in life isn't it.
| 31:21.60 | Paul Martin | Um, thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure.
| 31:31.85 | Paul Martin | And hopefully I've raised more questions than I've answered. Absolutely.
| 31:33.50 | Naomi Gibson | Definitely.
| 31:39.66 | Jamie | But if anyone listening is looking to find out more about Paul or looking to inquire about his services. You can find him on the ciaep Forums or on linkedin.
| 31:53.95 | Jamie | And if you want to keep up with us on the podcast. You can follow us on Twitter at right and wrong uk or on Instagram at right and wrong podcast. You can also find our book lists on Bookshop dot org including Naomi's book every line of you which you guys should go and get ah.
| 32:10.92 | Naomi Gibson | Yay.
| 32:13.64 | Jamie | And and that wraps this up I want to say a big thank you to paul for coming and sharing everything with us big. Thank you for night to Naomi for guest hosting this episode and we will see everyone next time bye.
| 32:23.47 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, thank you Bye bye.
| 32:24.80 | Paul Martin | And a big Thank you to you guys. Cheers to get.
| 32:29.18 | Jamie | And we're done seen everyone breathe everyone. Everyone take a sip.
| 32:34.10 | Paul Martin | That's rap. Oh you bring me back to my amdram days. You're not far wrong I went through many this is what I want to do.
| 32:34.35 | Naomi Gibson | Who.
| 32:39.92 | Naomi Gibson | Yeah, that's crazy.
| 32:40.61 | Jamie | You've really done it all Paul like.
