The Purpose Pledge: Changing Capitalism As We Know it, with Dr Bronner’s Les Szabo

WEBVTT
00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:23.280
But the download was so simple but so profound and and the idea was that everything that I do has to be with asking that question of am I laying the groundwork for what's next?
00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:34.640
G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, featuring the stories that are changing the story, enabling the regeneration of this living planet.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.840
Dr.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:41.759
Bronner's has a plan to change capitalism as we know it.
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:43.679
That's the headline that Inc.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:47.679
magazine ran with on the recent launch of The Purpose Pledge.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:57.200
Describing it as a new gold standard of social entrepreneurship, the article led off with this The B Corp and the billionaire's giving pledge are broken.
00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:59.119
So says the team at Dr.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:00.000
Bronner's.
00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:06.239
Well, it might be a bit more nuanced than that, but Bronner's has discontinued its B Corp certification.
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:20.319
I spoke with CEO David Bronner at the company's HQ in California a couple of years ago for episode 207 about the incredible story of this top-selling brand of natural soaps, body care and food products.
00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:34.799
Since David became CEO in 1998, the company has grown from $4 million in revenue to $250 million and all while continuing to change so much about the systems and stories we live by.
00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:43.120
Back then, this podcast happened to be the first to feature the breaking news that the Purpose Pledge was readying for launch.
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:52.239
That launch happened earlier this year, and today more breaking news as another four companies have just signed on.
00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:58.079
The key architect behind the pledge and its executive director is Les Zabo.
00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:02.239
He's the quietly spoken Chief Strategy and Impact Officer at Dr.
00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:07.359
Bronner's, described to me as having flown under the radar for a long time.
00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:14.240
Part of the family behind the family in a way, as his wife is also a senior long-term executive at the company.
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:31.759
And how they met and came to be where they are at Bronner's, and with Les now launching the pledge, is one enormous, heart-rending, death-defying, instructive, hopeful, and crazily serendipitous story that in large parts I sense hasn't been shared before.
00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:32.800
G'day Les.
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:34.240
Thanks a lot for speaking with me, mate.
00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:35.120
It's great to have you.
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:36.639
Nice to be here, AJ.
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:37.680
You're at home.
00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:38.879
Can you bring us into it?
00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:41.599
What does home mean to you and feel like?
00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.639
Uh home is is Portland, Oregon.
00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.280
And um I I work with Dr.
00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:48.000
Bronner's.
00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:51.439
Our company is headquartered in North County, San Diego.
00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.400
And so and and my wife works for Bronner's as well.
00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:59.280
And so we spent a good chunk of time down there, but uh but home is Portland.
00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:04.240
We've been here for 20, 26 years.
00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:04.719
Yeah.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:09.360
I noted on your LinkedIn profile you've got a picture of sweeping ocean.
00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:10.400
Is that Portland?
00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:11.840
Well, that's the Oregon Coast.
00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:12.080
Yeah.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:12.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:13.919
Yeah.
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:14.400
Yeah.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.199
No, we spent a good chunk of time on the coast.
00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:24.240
And um, yeah, we have uh yeah, uh I I I surf and my daughter surfs.
00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:29.120
And so um, yeah, Oregon Coast is a pretty special place.
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:45.680
Um surf conditions aren't always great, uh, but just the the the terrain and the just the beaches there are so unique and different from anywhere in the world, and they're just so beautiful.
00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:53.680
So it's um even if you're not getting waves, just being in the water and and paddling out is is a very special experience.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:54.400
Right.
00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:55.360
I hear you.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:03.120
And it might be worth bringing up just off air, you were telling me about your experience last week of what it was like living there.
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:04.080
Oh, yeah.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.879
Oh man, it it was it was terrible.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:16.879
Um, it hasn't been well, so we have I I I think over two million acres have burned just in Oregon.
00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:28.079
And yeah, the winds shifted last Tuesday, and then uh the the smoke in Portland was really just so bad.
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:32.560
It hasn't been that bad since um I I think 2000.
00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.439
Uh, but we were essentially in in lockdown.
00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:56.399
Um, and my wife had sent me uh a clip uh saying that because she's up in Vancouver, BC right now, she's um she's tending to her mom, but um she said that uh or the clip said that uh that day, that Tuesday, the air quality was the the worst on the entire planet.
00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:07.120
Um and so we were just yeah, we were just indoors and um pretty much uh didn't go outside for about three days, which is kind of insane.
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.439
Yeah, it is reminiscent of some of the stuff we've gone through here in Australia.
00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:23.279
On the topic of home, but not only home, Les, it occurs to me what you wrote recently about your family background at a really poignant time, obviously for Hungary, with Orban's regime being overthrown.
00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:31.279
But it also occurred to me, you know, where I started the podcast with David Bronner was a similar sort of vein.
00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:46.079
It was the family background, of course, that led the Bronas to the States and started the company ultimately, and that he's carrying on all these years later with obviously our family, but also in a context that gets a bit more complex.
00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.560
So I'm curious for you then.
00:05:48.560 --> 00:06:00.160
You were motivated to write that very moving piece, which you started with your father and his experience of being arrested as a college student in Hungary protesting Soviet authoritarianism.
00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.279
Did he share much about that experience with you?
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:04.560
Not a lot.
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.279
It was definitely a sore subject.
00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:19.439
And so um I was always curious as a kid, um, but I I also just realized it was um, you know, sort of a very sensitive topic.
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.120
And so, um, yeah, bits and pieces over time.
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:27.920
Uh, but uh my my my father passed many, many years ago.
00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:33.680
Um, and I do regret that I I didn't get the full story and all the details.
00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:39.199
And I actually got more from my mom than I did um um directly from him.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:07:08.240
And so yeah, he was a college student and was arrested and uh essentially kind of blackballed from university and um didn't go back and uh it was it was when the uh the the Hungarian revolution in 1956, that's when he um escaped and crossed the border, uh the um the western border and went into Austria.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:17.040
And my my mother was actually working at the refugee camps and and and she spoke Hungarian because she was also of Hungarian descent.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:17.680
Oh, right.
00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:18.879
That's how they met.
00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:36.079
And um, yeah, and then um and then he actually had to continue on because uh yeah, it was a really bad situation with the the secret police and and them crossing the border into Austria trying to um sort of bring back uh political prisoners.
00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:43.759
And so um he they they made the decision to um immigrate uh to the to the U.S.
00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.319
And he went first and then my mom followed.
00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:51.439
And then both my my sister and I were were were born in the U.S.
00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:55.600
So yeah, it was uh a pretty incredible story.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:07.920
And then and then um and then after school I went there to study uh politics and economics and language uh through a fellowship.
00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:18.399
And I actually stayed at the same economics university um um in the same dorms that where my my my father was.
00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:24.000
Um and uh yeah, it was just incredible, kind of full circle moment.
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:34.159
But um, yeah, in and Orbon at the time, this was you know, in it was in 1990.
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:57.919
And so just, you know, the um the the energy around the Fidesz party was amazing because it was like these young uh reformers that were really just I mean, the younger generation of Hungarians was was just so enthusiastic about um that party and about supporting them.
00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:05.120
And and then you you you look and see what happened over those few decades, and it it was tragic.
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:26.159
And um, yeah, I just mentioned in the piece that you know that was um where we landed there and and what was going on there in the last few years was I think very much what that sort of autocratic regime was, um, you know, exactly what my father was fighting uh back in the 50s.
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:27.840
Uh it's incredible to think.
00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:35.919
As much for your return to the same college, even were you starting to actively look into your background there as well?
00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.440
Or or it was just sort of by osmosis, if you will.
00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:48.879
No, I I I I sought out um sort of distant relatives and and and spent time with them, looked them up, and um, there wasn't much family left.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:57.840
And um most of the the family that um I stayed in contact with growing up was on my mom's side in in Austria.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:03.360
Um but but yeah, there's um there's a few family members.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:25.360
Um and and this was very a very rural part of Hungary of Um Yeah, just um small farms and um and but but yeah, it was it was still important for me to connect and and just have a relationship with those extended family members.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:26.320
Yeah.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.240
I wonder what really um stood out to you the most.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:34.639
Did you feel a sense of home and in even in the people you were meeting?
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:54.080
I'll never forget my brother said to me when he traveled to Ireland once and dad had by that stage researched some of the past history that we'd lost, and he my brother found himself in a house and they had photos along the wall, and he said, It was like, oh my god, I'm looking at my aunties and uncles I know in Perth today.
00:10:54.080 --> 00:11:00.000
Did you feel a sense of, oh yeah, this is where I'm from, these are my people, or how was it?
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.200
Yeah, I I I I wouldn't go that far.
00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:11.120
Um I mean, it was it was more, I think, just uh a sort of exploration.
00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:23.360
And and my wife, who I met in Hungary, who was uh uh from or grew up in Canada, uh, we spent her grandmother was still in Hungary, and so we spent a lot of time with her.
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:33.120
We'd go to like classical concerts and the opera, and and um it was like I think there was that that made it a little more tangible.
00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:41.679
Um, and we were a little closer to her because she was right in the city, and so and and we saw her like every week.
00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:58.399
Um, but I I would say, yeah, I I you know what we we we were there for for seven years together, and then uh we decided to start a family, and that's when we we came back.
00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:04.080
And so, and and I think to answer your question, it we came back because it wasn't home.
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:16.000
And um, and it was time to I I I mean seven years is like a nice, nice chunk of time um to to experience like a place fully.
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:29.519
Um, but you know, once you you think about um starting a family, then you're you're you you have that change in in in sort of reference and and point of view about things.
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:39.679
And um and it was very important for us to feel more comfortable and be closer to um our our more immediate family.
00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:40.159
Yeah.
00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:50.159
So that that's that that was the primary reason uh we we elected to come back, is is that we wanted to raise our family uh closer to our home.
00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:52.399
Talk about the twists of fate, huh?
00:12:52.399 --> 00:13:02.399
That your your dad meets your mom in a refugee camp having fled, you know, disaster, and and that you meet your wife going back to the roots.
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.320
It's fascinating how life works, no?
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.080
No, it's it's it's amazing.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:10.000
And I that that's that's that's what life is, you know.
00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.879
It's it's it's not the I mean the biggest events are are not planned.
00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:23.440
It it is just you know synchrodestiny and and or serendipity or whatever you want to call it, but that's what it is.
00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:33.600
And you know, just to think about what happened there and meeting my wife and how the the direction, how things pivoted based on that.
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:39.759
Um, you know, just these these pretty much random events that that shape your life in the biggest way.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:40.559
Wow.
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:46.480
I'm curious too, on the political front there, with what you were saying before, which is extraordinary to think then where it does go.
00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.320
But of course, yes, it's flipped again now and Orban is out.
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:57.600
And you wrote that you feel a sense of optimism in that for Hungary, but not just for Hungary.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:06.000
And of course, in the US context now is looms large in certainly over here as well, in a similar kind of way, quite not all.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:14.000
I, you know, I'm in touch with the spread of opinions on it, but certainly there's a large thread of autocratic uh thrusts.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:20.399
But you feel optimistic about the broader picture too, out of what you saw happen in Hungary?
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.039
Yeah, I'm I'm very optimistic.
00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:42.960
I think that um I I feel like there is a shift happening, and um, and we could talk more about what that means in terms of sort of my day-to-day work and and and how that that sort of optimism is is is being translated to action.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:15:02.960
Um, but but yeah, I mean it it's just interesting because for most of you know, after we left Hungary, I mean I mean it's whatever, 10 million people, you know, kind of uh not um not an important country in terms of the kind of geopolitical larger landscape.
00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:19.840
But you know, the the the fact that um that Orban was defeated, I think for a lot of people, it's just interesting that it made you know global news just folks talking about the fact that, you know, is this the first domino?
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:31.360
And so I think that um yeah, from that perspective, uh I was I was, yes, like I said in my piece, I was proud to be a Hungarian at that point.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:32.320
Right.
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:33.440
Right, yes.
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:38.879
And my old mentor here uh passed away 15 years or so ago, was of Hungarian descent too.
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:43.759
So he was sort of meeting a few of the old stories I've come up with too in the last period of time.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:51.919
So where did you end up growing up then when your parents came to start a family in the States?
00:15:52.399 --> 00:16:01.440
Yeah, it was in um Southern California, um Los Angeles County, um, in uh a city called Bellflower.
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:22.960
And um, yeah, that's where um my sister and I were born and we grew up there and we eventually moved to Orange County, which is the county south of Los Angeles, and um most of my teen years were spent there.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.320
Yeah, were they?
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.679
Um I mean they they were all right.
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:42.879
Uh yeah, I mean I I was a different kid just just based on my background and you know, like it it was uh um yeah, we we grew up very different.
00:16:42.879 --> 00:17:17.839
And you know, the the the sort of um it it was very odd because even in the US um there was um my my father was this is sort of you know it was the early sixties and and still sort of the anti-communism fervor and and just the fact that we were from an Eastern European country and and lived in a you know very working class white neighborhood.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:26.079
I I think that um you know people didn't really like they they they they wouldn't our neighbors wouldn't know where Hungary was on a map.
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:40.799
And so it's not like we were welcomed into that community and um we actually had like FBI agents that were parked in front of our house and we're we were being surveilled.
00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:55.200
Um and like I remember just as a kid when my father would you know tell us to just you know lay on the floor and close the blinds and not say anything.
00:17:55.200 --> 00:18:10.799
And so it was um you know that experience of of um fear and and and not being in a safe place is is ingrained in you.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:22.640
You know, once having having those experiences as a as a kid, I I I think they're they're just you know in some ways kind of very traumatizing.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:39.839
And so you look at the world and you know the the the the sort of um the cognitive spinning around whether you're in a safe place and a safe environment, that that that becomes like kind of an ongoing thing.
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:50.000
And so um, yeah, I would say not not a very sort of um diverse, uh very tolerant um place.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:56.319
And so yeah, I was um I I was happy to to get out of there.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:02.799
I mean, I had I had a lot of fun in high school, uh, but I was just so ready to leave there.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:07.759
And then yeah, further away the better.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.839
Oh, to think that it was refuge that you thought the family thought you'd gained.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.559
Yeah, you know that that's exactly right.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:35.920
So the the the that sort of um like you you escaped um once from Hungary and then you escaped again from Austria, and then and then you you're in a new and and you know, total like immigrant story.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.960
My my father came over with with nothing.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.079
I mean, literally nothing.
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:59.440
And so um and and then to sort of build a life and and build a career and but still have that sort of like that the fear, you know, um that that is that that never really um completely goes away.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:39.200
And so yeah, and then and then there was um yeah, uh always the the the the the sort of economic security was always everything kind of boiled down to you know money and survival and and and so um yeah that was you know, it just like I just think about you know my father's perspective and it was just like he he he he never got a break, you know, he he never was able to sort of exhale and relax and say, you know, this is this is home.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:21:11.279
And um so yeah, I I I don't want to go too far on this just because like I it I'm I'm not sure it's that interesting to your listeners, but um, but yeah, I mean it's it's uh you know that that's why I think like I I don't know, there's a certain level of empathy that I have for immigrants um and and and folks that are are being um harassed and and and folks that don't feel safe these days um in our country.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:20.319
And so yeah, and it's it's I mean, I was very young, but there's still um memories of uh kind of what that felt like.
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:21.440
Right, yeah.
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:42.000
Yeah, it's funny you should say that uh too, that sort of disclaimer in a way, Liz, because you know, 300 episodes plus 10 years in the doing this podcast, ostensibly uh stories of regeneration around the place, and of all the sort of meta themes, it is the stories of where we've come from that seem to be the connective.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:50.799
I mean, it's almost sounds obvious as I say it now, but but it really has been strong through through the experience of the podcast that connects us even across divides.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:55.839
Uh if if we can link into these stories and universal themes that come with it.
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.759
And of course, then what shapes our efforts to be shaped?
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.119
Shifting things and um in a very human way.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.359
So yeah, and I I appreciate you going there.
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:16.720
And so so you then, your dad would have also thought uh you his kids weren't going to experience it, so but you did uh a related kind of trauma and escaped, in your case from Orange County.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.000
So between there and Bronas, what was your path?
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:21.359
How did it lead there?
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:31.680
Yeah, I I I went to college at UCLA, and so um, which was just uh an hour north of where I grew up.
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:43.039
So that was the first step, the first kind of attempt to like um you know create some distance between uh where I grew up and and this this new life.
00:22:43.039 --> 00:23:01.759
Um and then after that, I I worked, I did um, well, I I did consulting for for a year, and then I I did um and the type of consulting was um actually supporting the United Steel Workers Union.
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:19.839
So it was a it was uh a firm specializing in buyouts and setting up uh employee stock ownership plans for plants or facilities that were uh at risk of being shut down.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:29.359
And and it was a a case of in most in most cases, it was you know the workforce taking a significant uh pay cut.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:38.319
And in return for that pay cut, you know, they would be uh essentially purchasing that um in this case it was a forging operation.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.799
It was called Pitchbittsburgh Forgings.
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.000
And so it was really kind of innovative at the time.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.000
This was in the uh late um, when was it?
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.160
It was like eight eighty, like, yeah, late 80s.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:24:06.880
And so um and and the idea of of you know employee ownership had had just been the the ideas were just sort of being and the legislation around it um what was just being developed.
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:21.599
Um, but that this case, this this idea of you know steel workers being able to save their jobs and at the same time um own the company that they're working with, like wow, what what a powerful concept.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:40.480
Um and and so I mean there's a there's a whole I looking back now because there is so much momentum around employee ownership these days and um and employee trusts and and um purpose trusts and all all these sorts of alternative ownership structures.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:49.200
Uh but this was back in the late 80s that that we were doing this work, and so it was it was really it was really fascinating.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:56.880
And and so I I I learned a lot about business planning and yeah, I was spending quite a bit of time right outside of Pittsburgh.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:58.400
I was based in New York City.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:12.640
So so I guess there is like I haven't even thought about it this way, but there is a very sort of um nice, you know, thread that connects all these experiences um way back to just when I just was out of school.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:13.440
Right, yeah.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:23.519
And as much for I think the um I mean it sounds cliched, but thinking out of the box and against the prevailing flow, but in a way that that is we can just do this.
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:30.720
Yeah, rather than being victim or subject to these other structures, which clearly plays into what you're doing now.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.480
And so so your role, how did you connect to Bronner's directly?
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:36.640
And then how did you come to be in this particular role?
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:39.440
Yeah, so um we connected to Bronner's.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:46.880
My wife and I started um, or we were part of a a founding team that that started a hemp food company.
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:47.440
Right.
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:54.319
And so um, yeah, so we launched the first hemp protein powder, and then we launched the first uh hemp milk.
00:25:54.319 --> 00:26:02.079
And this was in the early 2000s, and and we we we began exhibiting at the big natural food show.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.119
It's called Expo, it's in Anaheim, California every year.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.039
I think it's the biggest in the world.
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:18.400
Uh, but we started exhibiting there, and uh David Bronner, uh well, the Bronner the company started using hemp oil in their soaps in 1999.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:18.799
Yes.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:30.160
And so David and family were big advocates of hemp and and also supporting these early stage and startup companies in in the hemp space.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:36.240
And so anyway, he was a great ally, and that's how we uh met him.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:27:10.720
And um, yeah, and then uh we we sold the company uh for not a lot of money, and um uh mart margins, we we were the whole supply chain around hemp was just being you know developed, and and so we were buying um hemp uh seeds from farms in Canada where it was already legal, and but the economics had not been sorted out.
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:11.039
Right.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:19.279
And so we were never never able to dial in our our our margins in in a in a way that made sense.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.920
Um but yeah, the company was sold.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:32.960
But then through this relationship with the Broners, uh my wife, like literally, I think it was like within two or three days of the company being sold, she started working for Broners.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.039
And so, um, and her job was hemp advocacy.
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:50.400
So going into taking all the these small emerging hemp food brands and creating end caps and working with retailers to really promote, they they came up with a great campaign called Hemp History Week.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.359
And so they did events all over the country.
00:27:53.359 --> 00:28:04.319
Um, and they really, I think, did a great job in in building awareness around hemp as a as a kind of like ingredient or or or superfood.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:17.440
And so um that's that's how she started at Brawners and Um and whatever, like I guess it's like 17 or 18 years later, um, she's now CMO.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.440
And they have there wasn't a marketing department back then.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:26.720
Um now it's all sort of really kind of you know professionally run.
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:32.319
And and I don't know, they have like 20 people or something and fully built-out marketing team.
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.640
But um yeah, it's just like quite quite an evolution.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:29:01.599
And then I and then I I was I was doing my own thing um after the company was sold, and um I I was um working with uh a Swedish partner who was a good friend, and and uh he he launched uh a line of workwear, um sort of like like Dicky's kind of or sort of fashionable Carhartt.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:14.319
And um and I was working with him and um and and then he got very sick um and and passed within three months uh from stomach cancer.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:23.039
And um, so I I wanted like I'm not really a fashion guy and and I just I had no interest in in continuing without him.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:36.480
So I I sold my um ownership stake in the company to uh another Swedish licensee and and was just whatever kind of um yeah, not not in good shape.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:47.200
Um and uh yeah, I I I I kind of went into like kind of a sort of dark place uh for a period of time there.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:58.960
And um, and anyway, uh the I I I uh brawners needed some support on their supply chain work.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:11.839
And so I I I did some consulting um for them around more on the business commercial side, um, not so much the agronomy farming side.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:18.400
But we have projects all over the world where we source our raw materials, um, primarily the global south.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:29.519
And so um, yeah, it was a great opportunity to work with um, they're called the special ops team, but they do they they oversee all of the kind of sourcing relationships.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:34.160
And some cases they're wholly on subsidiaries, in other cases they're joint ventures.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:40.400
But I was there, you know, again, supporting on some finance accounting stuff and and then also like business planning.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:44.559
And so um, yeah, and and then one thing led to another.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:45.359
Amazing.
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.200
14 years later, right?
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:47.759
Here I am.
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:51.200
Amazing that you connected on that hemp story too, which is so pivotal.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:54.640
Well, to David, certainly, but the company's amazing that's where it started.
00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:00.000
Not not only to David, like we we just talked about, well, we talk about it all the time, actually.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.480
Um, the the number of people that um are working for the company that that started in hemp.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:11.680
So it was it's it's it's it's critical mass for sure, which is really, really interesting.
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:12.480
What do you know?
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:23.440
You know, there was a a podcast not too long ago I did as well uh in South Carolina, actually, only because the filmmaker was there, because he'd made a film for Patagonia called uh Hemp is the New Buffalo.
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:32.319
I think that was or it was called the Green Buffalo, but it was about the tribe there had got on to hemp because they their their reservation had been also shredded.
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:37.200
So they had bugger all land to even join the restoration of buffalo that's happening now.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:44.240
So they needed something else that was food, clothing, even housing material, etc., etc.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.680
And uh they grow hemp now, doing that and carted out their old toxic houses.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.119
It's a hell of a story.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:54.720
The goodness of it sort of keeps sort of flowering, if you like.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.720
That's brilliant that that story goes there.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:58.480
So I'm curious then for you.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:06.799
Do you do you call yourself, are you guys the uh the cosmic marketing officer and the cosmic strategic impact guy in your case?
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:08.880
Oh no, no, but that's a great idea.
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.480
Maybe I should change my title.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.960
Um David is the only one with the the the uh cosmic in in in his title.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.160
Um yeah, he's cosmic engagement officer.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:26.559
And I I don't even know how that term did he I should have asked, I don't even think I originated.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:33.200
Yeah, I I don't know myself, but anyway, he has been for for very for a very long period of time.
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:40.480
And then I I have more of a boring corporate title of chief strategy and impact officer.
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:40.880
Yeah.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.440
And then my wife is chief marketing officer.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:44.079
Yeah.
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:58.000
I'm gathering by the type of company it is and the space that you described that you were in as you came to it, that the journey you've had is professional, but also it's been uh personal.
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.680
It's clearly you don't look like a guy who's in a dark space now.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:11.039
And I know a lot of I mean, there's a lot paid attention to to ancestral lineages and ceremonies, if you will, and those sorts of gatherings.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.039
And Dave and I spoke a bit about that.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.680
Has it been part of your experience too?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.839
Yeah, uh a very important part.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:28.960
And so yeah, I ac actually tracing back to that that um very unpleasant time.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:34:09.440
And so I um yeah, I mean it it it it had been whatever since college years, since I was um doing any sort of psychedelic drugs or medicines and and um and but but um yeah, I I was it uh I I I I was depressed and um and I did try therapy and it it didn't work and then I had an opportunity uh opportunity to sit um in a ayahuasca ceremony and that that was yeah like 15 years ago.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.639
Um whereabouts um in in uh eastern Oregon.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:25.599
Yeah and and that had an effect Oh yeah, yeah, uh life life-changing effect and it put me on this path.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:30.639
And so um and and yeah, on the on the medicine path.
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:53.360
And um yeah, I I would say that n not only just personally and emotionally um uh uh just changing my life, but but also I I think it I think in terms of the work I'm doing, I'm I'm doing it based on these medicine experiences.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:35:02.960
So I feel like it's um yeah, we we can get more into that, but um the the i it it is very very much connected.
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.519
Yeah, let's just keep following that thread, huh?
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.320
What about it has led you to this?
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:18.559
Well, um yeah, this is I wasn't expecting this to get so personal, um, but yeah, let's go with the flow.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:36.800
Um so so yeah, I um uh back in I I was working for Bronner's and and things were were um yeah, I I I I've always loved my work and and I work very hard.
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:49.840
And um uh I was working on philanthropy and impact investing and and then also um I'm very involved with the company's e-commerce and international business as well.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:55.679
Um and and then also the company's sort of overall planning.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:13.360
And um and back in 2000, I I I had a stroke and yeah, uh it was it was not it was it was a mild stroke, um, but it sort of shook things up for me, obviously.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:17.920
Um, and definitely viewed it as like a a shot across the bow.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:23.920
And um, because everything could have just went a very different direction.
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:37.039
Um but then uh as as part of just recovery, I did do um uh a mushroom ceremony with somebody here in my house.
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:55.840
And like the um the the experience uh was very short uh and very intense, which isn't at least for me, not the the typical sort of psilocybin experience.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:06.079
And um but what came out of that the download was just this simple phrase of laying the groundwork for what's next.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:23.519
And so when when you're when you have that, you know, that brush with death, then then everything kind of shifts in terms of how you view your your relationships and and your life and and your work.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:42.480
And and so but the download was so simple but so profound, and and the idea was that everything that I do has to be with asking that question of am I laying the groundwork for what's next?
00:37:42.480 --> 00:38:01.599
And and not just in terms of like family and kids, but am I doing work um that is you know for in in service of my family and and and and my community and and and the earth.
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:18.239
And and so like it it it is um it's so simple, but then it's also just so profound when you just ask yourself, you know, in terms of your day-to-day, like, am I laying the groundwork for what's next?
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:25.519
And and it and and then if you if you answer no, then it's it's not the best use of your time.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:25.840
Right.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:33.039
But if you are, then that's exactly it's it's the highest and best use of your time.
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:42.320
And so I just um I I I I don't I don't know if if that's gonna sort of resonate uh uh at all.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:39:00.480
And and I understand if it doesn't, but for for for me, it's the the the fact that I can use that sort of very simple kind of litmus test about um, you know, is is this worthwhile, uh worthwhile use of my time, then you know, it's good enough for me.
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:01.280
Right on.
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.440
No, that's intensely relevant and fascinating to hear.
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:12.320
And so the purpose pledge launched this year, but years in the making, I gather.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:25.519
With that sort of um touchstone in mind, you've gone about your work and arrived to this point and then gone to the trouble to try and and make something new in a sort of paradigmatic way, too, that really shifted the tone.
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:31.280
So, how was it though trying to bring this together to actually get it going like it now is?
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:34.159
Yeah, I mean it it it it was.
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:49.119
Um it's it's been over three years that we've been working on it, and um I I I don't think I need to get into sort of the whole B Corp drama and and Bronner's I mean the bottom line is that Dr.
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:59.360
Bronner's elected to not re-certify as a B Corp, and and and there was there was a lot of commentary and and chatter about that.
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:08.320
But we had been working on the purpose pledge um almost two years before that elect that decision was made.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:17.920
And so, and and it's fair to say that we were not happy with the direction things were going uh for for a variety of reasons.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:28.400
Um and and so the the the idea of what what's next, that's something that you know was was being incubated within Broners.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:36.159
And so so it's fair to say that that was the sort of impetus for for thinking about doing something different.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:48.639
But then where we landed with the purpose pledge is so different in in every in every way, it's so different from pretty much every other certification or standard out there.
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:58.719
And and that's the first question every media outlet asks is like they they try to do that comparison, that side-by-side comparison, and we're like, no, it's it's it's not relevant.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:01.519
This is not a replacement for B Corp.
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:07.199
Um, there everything about sort of the operating model is is just so different.
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:17.519
But anyway, yeah, so we did uh we ran a nine-month pilot last year with a dozen companies, and we really dialed in the commitment language.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:23.519
So for those uh listeners that aren't familiar, you you you can go to purposepledge.org.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:24.320
That's the website.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:39.360
But essentially the whole model of the purpose pledge is is anchored with a framework, which is our operational definition of purpose, because there is no consensus definition.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:48.480
So it's it's a term used very loosely and people understand it conceptually, but they don't understand what it means in practice.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:52.400
And and you know, we have similar issues with terms like regenerative, right?
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.280
A lot of people use that term, but what what does it mean in practice?
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:10.000
And so so the idea is that we create this operational definition of purpose with these 10 very clear, uh rigorous, uh measurable criteria.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.199
And then, and that's how we define what it means to be.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:23.519
It's not everybody's definition, but we felt like somebody has to say, just you know, sort of draw that line in the sand and say, this is what it means to be authentically purpose-led.
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:30.000
And so that that was one part, sort of step one was defining that standard.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.079
And then second step was how we operationalize.
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:42.719
And, you know, as as you know, there's many companies that that want to do the right thing, um, but it's difficult to.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:53.920
It's difficult to just based on uh the the larger shareholder primacy environment that we we we operate in, that business operates in.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:43:04.719
And so um, and we don't have the systems and the institutions um and the the the infrastructure and the networks that that would make that easy.
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:06.239
And so that's what we're trying to do.
00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:10.079
That's what we're trying to build is that ecosystem of support.
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:19.280
So, you know, the tools, the, the, the shared learnings amongst these companies, uh we we just simply say it's it's removing obstacles.
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:21.360
That's what we're doing with the purpose clutch.
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:32.239
Um, and and and and really just figuring out what are these roadmaps for companies that are practical and and and scalable and cost effective.
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:35.760
And so, and we have what are called commitment catalysts.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:59.519
These are the nonprofit partners that help support the companies that to achieve, you know, whether it's zero waste or or or um reducing scope three emissions, or uh paying all of your employees a family living wage or community engagement and community giving, all those things, like we we offer guidance and support to those.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:07.679
Companies that that want to do the right thing and but just you know need just guidance and experience.
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:21.760
And so so it's these commitment catalysts that are supporting, but it's also the whole ecosystem because none of the 10 uh uh commitments are being met by there, there's no company meeting all 10 of the commitments.
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:36.400
And in some cases, you know, we're leaders, in other cases, we're learners, but it's all based on uh a company's own entry point into all of this and and what their experience is and what they prioritized.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.760
And so we're all helping and supporting each other.
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:43.280
Yerba Madre is is, I don't know if you know that company.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:56.559
Yeah, they were originally Gwai Key, uh, but they were a huge inspiration for brawners um in terms of looking at the supply chain issue because they were on the ground and they were working with farmers directly.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:45:05.280
And we, you know, back in the day were just we were buying organic, but it was just based on uh price and spec.
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:14.719
And so um we just realized there's so much that that we are not understanding about what's happening on the ground.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:40.719
And so that's kind of, you know, we went to fair trade from there, and then now we're promoting regenerative organic agri agriculture, which is covering not only soil health and land management, it's covering fair labor and how we treat uh farmers and and farmer livelihoods, and then also animal welfare where appropriate, you know, with with livestock operations.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:46:00.559
And so, yeah, it's um it's it's something where the we're not uh purpose budge is not a certification itself, uh, but uh five of the ten commitments require rigorous, credible third-party certification because it's it's absolutely necessary.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:04.000
That's what's going to determine whether companies are doing what they say they're doing.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:04.559
Yes.
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:11.920
And other key characteristics are that you're accountable for it uh in time-bound contexts as well.
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:14.480
So there's a real commitment to get at it too.
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:43.199
And in a way that really stood out to me, it sounds like in a way that's very much peer-based, and it it sort of echoed other programs I know of uh in regenerative agriculture that I think of RCS Australia, for example, here, uh the one that the mob that really pioneered the holistic grazing or that sort of framework over 35, 40 years in Australia, that they their version of it is that people who go through as graduates can keep going.
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:52.159
And they've now they've got a layer, if you will, sort of not dissimilar to this, where you've got people in their operations who come together and hold each other to account.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:47:03.920
They sort of vow to open the books, as it were, and share it all and then be subject to the feedback, uh, and then be accountable to what they resolve to do next time they meet, that sort of thing.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:07.679
And it's been extremely powerful in driving that movement.
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:09.760
And I see similar overtones here.
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.800
Just let me add to what you're saying, which is that the accountability piece is also really, really critical.
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:32.880
And so obviously you may have come across this cat cap Gemini is this big international consulting firm, and you know, the the their surveys show that six out of ten consumers uh believe companies are are greenwashing or purpose washing.
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:39.440
And so there's a a huge, huge issue around uh consumer distrust.
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:57.039
And so the the other part of this is you know ensuring that that purpose, the way we're defining it, has and and and and and companies are are are being accountable by having to publicly share their plans.
00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:03.440
And not only their plans, but they have to show they're making progress on each of the 10 commitments.
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:27.440
And so there's that public accountability that that is really critical because you know, in so many cases you hear companies making, whether it's around climate or any other issue, making claims, uh, but you don't there's no way that that you can track and w whether they're demonstrating kind of true follow-through over time.
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:34.000
And so that's that's why the accountability piece in the purpose pledge is also really critical.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:58.400
And you can go to, if you go to the purpose pledge website and you click on, for example, Bronner's, then you can see a progress, we call them progress trackers, but they're essentially progress bars for each of the 10 commitments, and it shows you know today, and then it shows what year the the company is um targeting as as the achievement year.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:08.159
And then and then if you click on like whatever supply web or zero waste or living wage, then you see the company's three-year plan.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:12.960
And it's all based on OKRs, um, which are objectives and key results.
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:22.320
It's a goal setting framework, but it asks each company with each commitment area to specify year one, what are you gonna do?
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:23.760
Year two, what are you gonna do?
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:25.280
Year three, what are you gonna do?
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.960
So it it and it's public.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:40.559
So anybody can, you know, whether it's an employee, a customer, anybody can go to the website and see how a company is doing, and then you know, just track and and and make sure that I mean it it's it's it's accountability.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:49.679
It's it's it's it's accountability to the general public, but it's also accountability to, you know, your your key stakeholders as well.
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:50.880
Yeah, yeah, right.
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:55.280
So 10 time-bound commitments, 16 companies in it at the moment.
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:56.239
Uh 20.
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:57.119
20 now.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:58.960
Yeah, we we launched with 16.
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.480
Actually, yesterday we announced an additional four.
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:02.800
Uh huh.
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:22.000
So we have we're we're purposely capping it at 25 just to make sure that we can manage all this and and work out, you know, a model that is gonna make sense and and the companies truly, you know, feel like it's it's useful and and valuable to be a part of the community.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:31.519
So there, yeah, we have five more slots and and we're pretty sure we'll be able to fill them by year and that's the goal is to have them filled by year end.
00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:32.000
Yeah.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:35.360
Is it food and egg based or more broad?
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.119
Well, it it's it's more broad in terms of sectors.
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:46.239
It covers food and ag and it covers well, food and beverage, and it covers personal care.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:53.119
So companies like Bronner's, and then we have one apparel company, and then we're also going to have one supplement company.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:57.760
But the common denominator is an agricultural supply chain.
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:00.800
And so either land or ocean-based supply chain.
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:01.679
Right.
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:08.079
And the funding for it, is this just like every stakeholder is is just putting themselves into it?
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:09.599
So it's sort of embedded.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:16.079
A slash, andor uh is there a a capital fund that you raise for this as well?
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:28.880
Well, I mean, the the issue of fundraising for this, for this is an independent 501c3, so it's an independent nonprofit um that that has been uh funded primarily by Dr.
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:30.320
Bronner's to date.
00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:33.840
Uh, but we do we do intend to diversify that.
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:39.440
We need to diversify that funding to kind of really build this out and to scale it.
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:52.000
Um, but then separate to that, there is and in this C3, this nonprofit is really focused on the pledge itself and and supporting companies in in commitment achievement.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:57.280
But then there's a separate sort of sister project that's called Purpose Capital.
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:08.480
And and the idea there is to uh it's not a fun, but essentially we're raising a pool of capital to support purpose pledge companies.
00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:18.400
And so it in in in a very innovative, non-extractive um sort of structure that that uh we're pretty excited about.
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:25.760
And it's it's pretty innovative, but it's it's a blending of sort of philanthropic dollars and impact investment dollars.
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:33.199
Uh, but but um the idea is to yeah, support these companies at at different stages of their life cycle.
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:35.519
And is that happening now or that's to come?
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:37.679
Well, the fundraising is happening now.
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:42.639
So we we just started really fundraising in late May.
00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:48.159
Um and and uh yeah, we're we're kind of right in the thick of it.
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:58.239
I I recall going back years too, uh, I think it was Peter Buffett was amongst it, talking about systems change philanthropy, and it was a big buzz at the time.
00:52:58.239 --> 00:52:59.440
Who who was saying that?
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:01.840
I think it was Peter Buffett, Warren's son.
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:02.480
Okay.
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:09.039
And I mean, big buzz, but and you sort of struggle to see much wholesale impact.
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:21.280
I I know that there's a you know, some of your press has been saying how this transcends again, another thing it transcends is the giving pledge, um, and really putting worth a word, huh, on that.
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:28.719
But then just related to the way those broader structures you referred to earlier work, the the growth economy as a whole.
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:33.679
What excites you the most about the potential in this to take us somewhere else?
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:34.960
There was an Inc.
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:39.840
article about us, and and uh I forget the exact title actually.
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:42.800
It was something about um I've got it here.
00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:43.199
Dr.
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:46.480
Bronas has a plan to change capitalism as we know it.
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:47.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:50.239
So so very grandiose.
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:56.719
Um but I will say that um that is the intention.
00:53:56.719 --> 00:54:08.800
And so and and you know that the the the giving pledge thing, there is sort of there that created some controversy as well.
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:36.400
And um I I I would recommend that you know if somebody's interested in learning more, they can go to um my LinkedIn page and actually read the full article because um there is I think something that that um when we talk about wealth creation and um wealth distribution in the form of philanthropy, they have been separated, but they cannot be separated.
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:53.199
And so we have to think about r rather than this idea of accumulating a tremendous amount of wealth and and then selectively giving back, we have to look upstream and upstream.
00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:58.400
That's where the wealth is being created via the the enterprise, via the company.
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:08.559
And so how are you treating those important relationships, your employees and and the land and and the communities?
00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:14.800
And and we talk a lot about the purpose pledge as um internalizing externalities.
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:28.880
And and if you're not treating and honoring those relationships in the right way, and you're accumulating wealth at the expense of those relationships, then that that's problematic.
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:43.679
And so there is a kind of systems level component to how we're thinking about purpose capital and what are the right kind of intervention nodes, you know, one is at the farm level and the other is at the company level.
00:55:43.679 --> 00:56:06.719
And so the financing is really there to support companies in that are on this track, that are on the purpose pledge track and that are investing appropriately in supporting those different and and we we we're we're trying to move away from using the term stakeholder for a variety of reasons.
00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:07.039
Right.
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:11.199
But but it's really about just honoring those relationships.
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:11.760
Yeah.
00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:16.800
You know, there's a mob here out of Australia that uh that took to using the word careholder.
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.760
And when you're having these sorts of structures, it stacks up.
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:20.880
It's not a bad term to use.
00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:29.840
Yeah, there there's um there's I've I've heard careholder, I've heard rights holder, and I I and and there's just relations, you know, like Right, kinship.
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:31.679
I I and kinship.
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:43.920
And and one of my spiritual leaders, his name is Sandor Ironrope, and he's a Lakota elder, and um we we work together closely on peyote conservation.
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:48.639
And so he introduced me to this term, uh, all my relations.
00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:52.800
And and that kind of says it all, you know, all my relations.
00:56:52.800 --> 00:57:05.360
And so when you have that worldview and and cosmology, and that everything is about relationships and right relationship, then stakeholder just feels completely inadequate.
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:06.719
It sure does.
00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:07.679
Well said.
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:12.880
Before we wrap up, Les, there's something else I'm really motivated to ask you.
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:18.960
Uh, and that is it's almost full circle to where we started with power, I suppose.
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:32.000
So if we end up with 25 companies in the purpose pledge, and let's say we've got the big power companies as we know them today, you know, with all the more with AI coming on the way it is doing what they're doing.
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.639
What is the prospect of I guess what you're optimistic about?
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:40.320
A shift in power that has this becoming the norm.
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:48.159
I guess it's another way to look at it might be how does this not just end up being the next marginal effort?
00:57:48.159 --> 00:57:49.199
Yeah.
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:57.440
What might distinguish this and related efforts to actually shift the dial where power resides?
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:11.119
Yeah, I I I think, I mean, maybe it does connect back to what we talked about and and and sort of the the societal level challenges that we're facing and and what make I think the model, like I said, is very different.
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:23.519
So we're excited about the the fact that this is a more, I think, a a pretty innovative way of thinking about um change at the at the economic level.
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:44.079
But you know, we we do talk about this as the decisive decade, and I feel like all the we don't if if you go to our website, we don't have a lot on the the why question, you know, like like we we don't need to show more um sort of peer-reviewed science about climate change.
00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:45.280
That's not our job.
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:57.519
Our job is not to uh talk more about um the problem because I think there is a great awareness, particularly amongst you know, the food companies.
00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:06.000
So they know that food and ag is at the intersection of these um these overlapping crises.
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:17.840
And so we we don't have to address the why, but we do have to know that we are it's our industry and we are accountable.
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:24.000
And at the same time, what an amazing opportunity to to make change.
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:40.320
And so I think most of the companies that are part of the pledge are looking at this from the company level perspective, the microeconomic perspective of how this impacts them and and their success and and and how it impacts their stakeholders.
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:48.880
But I think all the companies also just see the the larger vision and the the need to think macro as as well.
00:59:48.880 --> 01:00:05.119
And and you know, this idea of forging uh a new sort of way of thinking about you know how we value an enterprise and and thinking about even the purpose of an enterprise, like people are into that.
01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:15.920
Um and and I think it is because of you know having to stay indoors for three days because um the air quality is so bad.
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:19.440
It's it's hitting us very very much at home.
01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:20.400
Well said.
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:20.880
Yep.
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.000
Is this an invitation to others to Liz?
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:25.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:28.559
Any any any company is that that's interested, reach out.
01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:34.320
The first thing to do is download the PDF that has all the details of the commitment language.
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:36.480
There's a lot of fine print there.
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:41.119
So um, and and we we we just want to not waste anybody's time.
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:50.639
We want to make sure that there's a good fit between the company and and there is that sort of line of sight to being being able to achieve the 10 commitments.
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:59.519
And so um, yeah, uh and and we're happy to field, you know, um calls and and questions and all that.
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:04.480
If I'm assuming your audience is primarily uh Australians, is that correct?
01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:07.119
Three quarters, yeah, and a quarter is international.
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:07.840
Yeah.
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:12.320
So so I I think you know the whole idea is is around community.
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:21.280
And so, you know, we we do want to we we we had some inquiries from Europe and and I I think that you do need critical mass.
01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:26.719
So like the whole point is the community and the community engagement and collaboration.
01:01:26.719 --> 01:01:32.159
And so um that can happen sort of in the same region, the same time zone.
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:44.880
Um if if there are, and I'm sure there are Australian companies that are um that would be into this, and and but but then you know, we're not gonna do a one-off thing.
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:57.440
It it it it has to make sense where there's whatever, I'm just throwing out a number, five or so, five plus companies that um are are willing to be, you know, partners and and work together on it.
01:01:57.760 --> 01:01:58.079
Right.
01:01:58.079 --> 01:01:58.880
Terrific.
01:01:58.880 --> 01:01:59.280
Yeah.
01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:00.239
All right, Liz.
01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:03.039
Just to bring us home, I'm always really curious.
01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:09.760
Is there a piece of music that's sort of been with you through your life or maybe through some of those pivotal times, or or perhaps just now?
01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:18.159
Yeah, um, yeah, I'm very this is a shout out to um it's not a a single piece of music.
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:23.199
It's it's actually a radio station called KMHD.
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:28.800
And folks can find it at kmhd.org and stream.
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:39.679
Uh, but it's I I just discovered it maybe a couple years ago, but it is publicly funded uh local radio station here in Portland.
01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:46.880
Um it's jazz, but every form of jazz you can imagine, a very broad, broad definition of jazz.
01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:57.280
And um, and there's a particular DJ, his name is Anthony Valadez, and he has a show called Sounds for Plant Lovers.
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:03.440
And and and and and his just every show he does, he it's an hour show.
01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:12.320
Um it's live from 11 to midnight, but um they they archive the shows, and so you can you could stream it whenever.
01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:18.400
Uh but it it's just like I mean, it's it's um it's so good.
01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:23.440
And so it's it's it's on for me like kind of most of the day these days.
01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:24.880
So um yeah.
01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:25.679
Magnificent.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:33.119
So but a plug for them, they should, they should uh, yeah, I I I hope they can grow their Australian listenership.
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:33.840
Right, yeah.
01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:35.760
And I love that we can stream it too.
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:36.719
It's terrific.
01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:36.960
Yeah.
01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:38.079
Thanks, Liz.
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:43.199
Uh, you know, I am very glad that you uh you're going grandiose, that you're going big.
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:43.519
Yeah.
01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:44.000
Right on.
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:45.920
Yeah, it's what's needed and power to you.
01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:58.719
And uh, and I'm so looking forward to what happens and you know the learnings that will abound, whatever happens, but the potential for it, I totally see it, totally believe it right with you, and and thanks a lot for spending the time with us today.
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:00.880
Well, I enjoy the convo, AJ.
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:08.239
Thank you so much, and and please stay in touch, and we're we're happy to shoot you you know updates on on how things are going.
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:11.119
That'd be awesome, and yeah, let's follow up at some stage too.
01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:11.760
Awesome.
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:12.159
All right.
01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:12.719
Thank you, man.
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:13.440
Thanks so much.
01:04:13.519 --> 01:04:13.760
Take care.
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:14.239
You too.
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:14.800
All the best.
01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:15.199
Bye.
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:15.760
Bye.
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:20.480
That was Les Zabo, Chief Strategy and Impact Officer at Dr.
01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:23.840
Bronner's and the ED of the New Purpose Pledge.
01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:32.880
With thanks to Alexandra Groome Klement, who Judy Schwartz introduced us to while in the US, now part of the Purpose Pledge team, for helping to make this happen.
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:38.719
And if you're interested in the conversation Dave Bronner and I shared, head to episode 207.
01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:48.400
And if you happen to be interested in a short story about an uncanny moment that took place after this conversation, have a read of my latest Substack piece.
01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:50.400
All links in the show notes.
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:56.960
If you'd like to let me know what you think about today's episode, send a voicemail or text via the show notes too.
01:04:56.960 --> 01:05:06.559
And if you're enjoying the podcast, like I'm enjoying Les's music tip right now, I hope you'll consider becoming a paid subscriber on Patreon or Substack.
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:12.719
This episode was only possible with your support, so thanks very much for four years of it now.
01:05:12.719 --> 01:05:19.119
Paul Vergnot, over in Europe, going by your paying currency, and Nikki Thompson, over in Queensland, I think.
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:24.719
And thank you all for sharing, rating, and reviewing the podcast, because it all helps.
01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:33.760
The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Bardin, and at the top was Honey Mustard by Randy Sharp, sourced from Artlist.
01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:35.760
My name's Anthony James.
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:37.199
Thanks for listening.