התמלול המלא של DARVO, Toxic Relationships & Healing from Manipulation with Boundaries | Christie Hoffman

it might have been Liz Gilbert, but somebody, some author was talking about how like if there is a creative story or something that needs to be told, it will find you. It will find the Christie: Yes. Katie Grace: person that needs to say it. And then if you don't do it, it's gonna go find somebody else. But like Christie: Exactly. Katie Grace: That is literally how it feels to me with the book that I've written. It's like it literally came like a spiritual download and it just flowed out of me and I had to let it like completely come out the way it wanted to. It was crazy. Christie: Yeah, and that's why I tell people to follow their whimsy like you and I have. Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: you get we get these creative urges, or if you're not a creative person, you can get these logical urges that I just want to quit my job and and become a life coach. Like that's probably something to look into. And you had you had a creative urge. I have creative urges that are like full of costumes and but I I Katie Grace: Yeah. Christie: have seen my ideas come out through other people. when I don't act on it. I see that it's like, okay, well we're gonna give it to someone else and so Katie Grace: Mm. Christie: I try to act on these ideas as fast as I can. But writing a book, that's a lot of work. Did Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: when you say it kind of came out of you, were you just inspired for long stretches? Katie Grace: Yeah, it's not to downplay the amount of work it was. It was grueling, painful, sometimes hard work. you know, lots and lots of hours, lots and lots of crying, but it Christie: Ha ha Katie Grace: but it came out in kind of like these, I don't know, like random bursts, not random, they're just bursts of energy. And when it came, it was like I had to just follow it. Like I could be writing for an entire day, one thing. What as I was closer to finishing the book, it was a four-day stretch of pretty much nonstop writing. And that's just what I did. And then if there were weeks where it nothing, it was blocked, then it would frustrate me like crazy. But I had to just accept, like, okay, there's a block here for some reason and it's not Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: ready to come out yet. And then and then when it did, it did. Christie: Mm-hmm. I just want to compliment you though, because what we're doing again is like shadow work. You probably healed your inner child a lot to get these journal entries out on paper and do some recall and figure out what happened to you and was it okay? All of us need to do that at some point. like what what happened to you doesn't have to define you, but it will if you don't take the time to sit with the pain and that hurt inner child who was scared and was confused and didn't feel loved all the time. What you did was go sit with that little girl and give her a voice and like you got to go visit and go back with her. And maybe as I think as a kid when we were we felt that tug to just hang on, like it's gotta

get better, or like I'm just gonna get through this. I think the older, wiser version of us now, it was us doing our breath work, it was us you writing your book, it was me making both of us making our videos online, we're spending time with that hurt little kid, and that's why it comes out the way your your book did it was it's beautiful. You did a really good job. Katie Grace: Thank you. Thank you so much. my gosh, this was so unexpected. I was like, I'm the one who's like supposed to be hosting you today. But that was so nice. That was so Christie: I know, but I have a podcast too, so we're just gonna host each other. Katie Grace: nice. Thank you. I really you are you're like one of the advanced readers that I've had. and so you know, the book is officially publishing December first, twenty twenty six. And it's just I'm so thankful for feedback like that. Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: It means the world, but I am I'm so excited to get into more of your story. If you would be willing to share whatever you want to share to whatever depth you want to go, tell us more about like your story when it comes to healing from toxic people, Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: relationships, environments, whatever that looked like. And if there was a specific moment or season in your life where you felt like this is it, something really needs to change and you knew Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: it, and then you know what happened. Christie: So basically, I went through my Saturn return. And everything like that Katie Grace: Okay, yep, enough said. Christie: ha I think that happens for everyone. I don't know much about astrology, but I'm kind of joking, but I'm kind of serious. But there's something about your 30s that you're like, hold on. This Katie Grace: Yep. Christie: is not how I want my life to play out. And if I don't do something, this train is already halfway. It's like you're on a train and you're like lost what's it called sunk cost fallacy you're like I've already but I already am married and I'll just stay and it's it's okay people don't treat me very well but like I've gotten by am I really gonna blow up my life? I'm halfway through this ride. Not halfway but it kind of feels like it. You feel like you're old in your 30s. Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: So like but there's this distress that you'll feel at night that I did staring at the ceiling fan, bargaining with God, like what is this life? What am I gonna do? It's like well What if you just did everything opposite of what you were doing and then maybe you'll have a different outcome? So not to go backwards to go forwards, but I was raised very religious, authoritarian, fire chief dad. mom who worked in corporate, latch key kid, youngest daughter to two much older brothers who were like Irish twins. So they were in school together. I was like the the family mascot and the butt of every joke and the only girl and a big age gap. So I was the invisible child. I do think my parents loved us a lot, but

they only loved us against what they knew. My content can be very angry sometimes and very passionate. And I think you, Katie, do a good job of saying there's no villains in my story. And that inspired me to do better in that arena and heal that part of me that's still so angry. Katie Grace: Well, I do wanna say if it's okay. I I think anger is so very valid and it's a necessary emotion. And it doesn't Christie: I've heard Katie Grace: it doesn't mean you have to villainize people, but you can completely feel angry. I hope that's I hope you know that. Christie: Yeah, no, that that's a good point because I've I've also read and I've said this in one of my videos. Sometimes I'm great at slinging advice. It's hard to take it. but anger is the part of you that loves you most. Katie Grace: Yes. Christie: And that a like I as a little girl, I was not allowed to feel my emotions because my parents weren't allowed to feel their emotions, and their parents, I see the generational pattern for what it is. I do think our parents loved us, but they went about it in a very authoritarian, scary way. And that's where I identified with a lot of your work is like the religion and being scared in church and having questions and just being told to have faith. And it was a very I was a very anxious child. I always felt this impending sense of doom. Which you mentioned in your book. And I was just scared. I felt like the caboose. I felt like I didn't fit in, and anything I said was teased. Our family teased a lot. So they call that negging. And that was our only form of social bonding in our family. There wasn't like a lot of physical touch. We were told I love you, but it didn't feel like it. So, like, we got spanked. I still I'm on a little bit of a tangent now, but now that I have my own kids, I've spanked my son once and I never did it again because the trust that was broken and like I was like, I'm dysregulated. So I grew up with a grown man who was six foot five. Telling me Jesus loves me, but then you'd hear blood curdling screams coming from his office, whoever was in trouble, or it was me. Like, no one's coming to save you. You didn't empty the dishwasher correctly, or you touched that thing and you weren't supposed to. Like physical violence when a kid is still learning, that wrecked my nervous system up until this point. I'm still undoing that complex trauma. Katie Grace: Mm. Christie: but then as I got older. Our parents didn't hit us as much, but they really pressured us to excel in school. We go to church two or three times a week. We you're you play volleyball, basketball, softball, track, you're in the band, the marching band, the jazz bands, the concert band, you're in ColorGu. You vo it was just like go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And they wanted us to be excellent. And that part, I see that that's how they were trying to love us. But I was like the wild ADHD child latchkey kid at home, having snacks on the couch and watching Arthur, but then they hear

the garage door open and you're like, shoot. But I'm like in second grade, but I immediately feel shame. I run up to my room. I know I'm in trouble. I didn't do my homework. But where would like the adults weren't ho now that I'm an adult, I'm like, I that was neglect. so I grow up, I I I'll fast forward and I'm a mom now to two amazing kids, but I I married my childhood trauma. I married both my mom and my dad. There was addiction issues with my mom. There was like authoritative abuse with my dad. And so I who did I marry? The perfect blend of both of them. And I just always wanted everyone to get along. And I'm a fixer. I think a lot of people fall into this trap. A lot of empaths fall into this trap of like, I can save this person. I can show them that they're lovable and I'll be the sacrifice. I don't care. I just want them to see that they're great, but we're just projecting. our own goodness onto other people who just use and abuse us and and manipulate us and my family became very toxic of like my mom would triangulate us and keep us all kind of siloed as siblings and always hearing about someone else's parenting or our family just wasn't close. And my marriage wasn't great and that tells you what that family was like and what was witnessed and what was allowed. My marriage could be very scary sometimes. so when I I actually I don't. This is the truth, so I just have to say it. The season that I realized all something has to change, and all these relationships are off. My big season was kicked off with a psychedelic trip. I didn't clear this with you before I mentioned it on your show, but this is true. This is the truth. Katie Grace: no, this totally fine Yeah, totally fine Christie: I'd heard enough about the research of CPTSD and was like, I had been for like my whole marriage just like reading books, like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? Only to realize. I was a easy target and being nice in life is not enough. You need to be smart about who you have in your life. You can't just be nice to everybody. but I was miserable and I'd lost myself, I'd lost my spark, and I did a psychedelic trip, and immediately it was like, You forgot who you are. Let me straighten your crown. You need I like got divorced immediately, and just I knew it would be hard on the kids, but I knew the kids needed to see me be loved properly, even if it's just by myself. I started standing up for myself at work immediately and got promoted. I like, I just am I just realized the ugly truth that was so in my face my whole life that the psychedelics were able to let me zoom out and see it and be sit with it for the first time and be like, who what am I doing? Why am I letting everyone walk all over me? This isn't me. And did my childhood trauma, did my shadow work, and just I just became ruthless with who has access to me. Once I could see, okay, I'm not a damaged person, I'm not perfect, but hang on a second. I learned what Darvo was. people deny your reality, they attack your character, and then somehow you're the problem and you never got to have the conversation of repair. And it's I finally saw that. I could see my mom do it. My dad do it. My ev all of my friends do it. And I was like, it was it was very spooky. It was quite the ego death to realize everyone in my life had to go. But I look I got into manifestation. I went through a big period of isolation where all of my even longest-term friendships went away. But I was still friends with someone who stole a boyfriend from me. And I had let that stuff sit, and I just didn't want to be alone, so I healed my codependency. And it was a wild ride to be doing this while raising kids, but I'm so grateful that I went through the pain as if it was like a portal. Like I was just like I have to do everything differently, and I'm so glad that I have because it's changed my life in in every way I hoped it would. And I have more peace now and I have healthier relationships and my career has shifted into this healing work because I felt called to it. So like it's I'll end that whole long rant of like, it is so worth it to bet on yourself. And if something feels wrong, it's because it is and it's okay to take action before you're ready. Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. my goodness. Thank you, first of all, for being willing to share so vulnerably and so just authentically. Like you said at one point, this is just the truth. So I'm gonna say it. And that's not easy to do. That, especially growing up, there's a lot of overlap in our stories. And growing up the way that we did, it is really not easy to just say things for what they are and Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: to speak your truth, right? Because your truth might not always operate the same. Or look the same as what other people are gonna claim that their truth is, and that's okay. There's space for all of those things to be true at once. But so it's really hard to to say all of that. And then of course, when these things are very deeply personal and they're really there's a lot of pain attached to that. I'm just I'm thankful that you shared and I'm so also proud of you for doing this work because I I know deeply in my own way, like what strength. you had to really dig deep into yourself and scrounge up in order to make all those decisions, especially as a mom. Christie: Yeah. Uh-huh. Katie Grace: But like you said, I I wholeheartedly agree with you, your children deserve to have a mother that is fully functioning, healthy, happy, and loving herself the way that she deserves. And they need to see that. And Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: even if those decisions that you made in order to kind of like burn to the ground all the pieces of your life that didn't fit anymore. Or that really were just never yours to begin with. Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: It is incredibly valuable to them, even though it might have made, I'm assuming, a lot of people angry in your life. Christie: yeah. deciding to get divorced

was like, my God, what are my parents gonna think? But also realizing I don't really respect them as people. Now that I've kind of seen this, like I don't care what they think. my God, what are my friends gonna think? Wait, why wouldn't if I'm not okay, people who love me will just know that I can make hard decisions. They would want me to just be okay. Why why am I afraid of people judging this? Everybody in my life would judge this. That though those were really like Cool but spooky moments. And in life, we have to cut off our own arms and legs sometimes and know that they'll regrow. Okay, that's a terrible metaphor because they don't regrow, Katie Grace: Yeah. Christie: but imagine they did. Sometimes you have to like really carve out everyone. It doesn't happen to all of us, but anyone listening, if you go through a period where there's nobody, the greater the struggle, I swear, the greater the mission and the reward. So that that phase of isolation is really important. I'm I'm not sure even if you asked me a question, that was just a I guess and. Katie Grace: No, no. This yeah, yeah. I think I'm just validating a lot of your experience, hopefully. And no, Christie: Yeah, you are. Katie Grace: I I think that there was something you said too Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: about I think well, maybe it was a culmination of things. And I wrote I wrote down the phrase over here when I was taking notes, die to self. And I think that the way that you grow you grew up with like your religious background and then also the other layers of, you know, being the youngest child, the daughter, the invisible child. I think that you probably got a lot of similar messaging that I received. And Dr. Laura E. Anderson, she's on the podcast as well. In her book, she talks about how, like, if you grow up hearing that you basically need to die to yourself all the time, and usually in religious senses, you know, like you have to sacrifice your flesh, you have to beat, you know, your flesh into submission, you have to die to yourself, you have to lay all the things that you want down. Because it doesn't ultimately matter, then eventually, your body is gonna listen to that. Eventually your Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: body is gonna think, well, maybe I'm better off dead. Or maybe I'll start shutting down pieces of myself physically because I'm dying to myself and our words have so much power, what we believe has so much power. I'm curious, like, what if you're willing to share what led you to that psychedelic trip that was like a game changer for you? were you at a really dark point in your life were you at a low point? did you even think that things needed to change? Christie: It was one of the worst parts of my life that I was in denial about. We can be in denial that something is so bad. Everything felt wrong from my marriage to my career to my friend group and just where I was at, how I looked, how I felt. I was like, okay, everything's wrong, so this is fine. At least it all matches. And everyone else Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: says they're miserable, so this just must be it. So If you're not paying attention to who you're talking to and people are super negative, you're just like, it's you too? Okay, I'm not crazy. But it's like, no, yeah, actually, both of you, both of you need to make some changes. but with with the psychedelics, it wasn't like, I'm gonna go have an ego death and I'm gonna go figure out what's wrong. It was my discernment saying, Listen, listen, I know you were raised with the DARE program. And say no to drugs. I know you never got detention and you never really got in trouble. I know this feels reckless, but you should do this. And we all have that voice, that feeling that when we don't listen to it, we regret it later. But sometimes we shove that feeling down. For so long that sometimes it just pops up. That day it was just like, you are doing this, and I just felt very sure of it. I didn't know why, but I was like, I had been on antidepressants thinking I was just depressed from having kids. I was exhausted though, in the emotionally, physically, financially. I knew as a mom I was like empty. I think if I couldn't do it for myself, I knew something was off for my kids. And I was like, the kids, I'm gonna weirdly do this for the kids. Everyone says on the other side of this, they feel better and they have answers. So I need answers, if not for me, for my kids. And that's how I went into it. And I got it I got answers big time. Katie Grace: It came through. so you had this like very pivotal, game changing experience. And then can you share more a little bit about like what choosing yourself and I mean, like you said, you you got divorced right away, like you started making big changes right away. But did it take a while to really like tap into your sense of self and start to realize Christie: yeah. Katie Grace: like these are what my boundaries need to be, this is what I need. Like what did that look like or feel like? Christie: Yeah, so the first time I started s I did this psychedelic trip and then I I got all this confidence. So I'll I but there were two types of confidence. This was like you're making a change, you're becoming someone new. So I felt permission for the first time in my life to set boundaries and to say no. But that doesn't mean I wasn't shaking and like exhausted afterward and had a whole nervous system response to finally saying no, seeing how the people I loved so much, how they react for doing what's best for me. That was weird. But I still had this confidence that was permission. Then I go into isolation because I'm just like, you don't show up on time, and that makes me feel like no one you don't value me. You cheat on people and I can't have people like that in my life. So I was like cutting all these relationships, and then when there was no one, I got really scared, but I still had the permission confidence that was like, you were allowed to do this.

Then I did psychedelics again. a year later, that trust me, this is not something you do for fun. This is a all-day experience. I always did it when I didn't have my kids, but I was still feeling like I needed to have that all-knowing feeling again. I needed more answers, and I got them. And that was when I I actually was told on this psychedelic trip. I was like, What am I doing with my career? Everyone's gone. I was like, again, bargaining with God, the universe, whatever you you want to call it. And the message I received was like. Cause you're not corporate. And you are anti-corporate. And what if you just had fun? What would happen if you had fun? So coming out of that psychedelic trip, that was where I started playing with my social media content, which can be very silly and educational. And I found my values. And I went through this exercise. I was like in I was in a masterclass by myself. I finally, after that psychedelic trip, saw like, okay, if I'm alone, how am I gonna make the most of this time? And I felt safer. I felt more like this is headed somewhere. And once I found my values, my values are discipline, whimsy, like I can't be with people who shame me for the colorful things I want to wear or the silly things I say or my personality, generosity. And of course I can't remember them. You're supposed to be able to recall them. But what what was so good about that exercise, Katie, is I was able to look at all my relationships that had ended and been like, all of these were a values violation for me. And you can't when it's one thing to say this person triggers me and I can't have this relationship anymore, and I'm just gonna follow this feeling that something's off. That's good. But your values will help you say more logically, this relationship didn't work out because I value honesty. That was one of my values. And my friend who was cheating, it was like really bothering me. And she was like, Why are you so mad at me? I didn't do it to you. But it just knowing I was friends with someone who was dishonest was such a violation of my values. So I was like, okay, I can still two things can be true. I can love you and also say, I can't have you in my life. And my parents were a values violation, and so was my ex-husband. So I started to have this secondary confidence that was safer, that is still with me, that's that's like follow these breadcrumbs, and this will only lead you to your highest timeline. Just keep keep keep following the signals and the urges and like keep prioritizing yourself. And as I've seen that my life has worked out more and more, I'm like, this is how this works. You have to choose yourself. Even when it's scary. Katie Grace: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I I love that. So you're you're talking about following your whimsy. I've talked a lot about taking inspired action. Cause that's like the phrase that comes to me all the time is like when I get those seemingly random urges or instincts I feel it. I feel it in my

bones. Like I know this is aligned. I know this like feels right. It's something I need to do, even if it's very scary. Like it could feel terrifying. and completely aligned at the same time. And I have to follow it. that's the taking inspired action. And every single time that I do, I don't regret it. I see how it plays out in my life and I see why like it needed to happen. And yeah, that's like incredible. But I feel like the more that you tune into yourself, like it might start off really little or small or slow at first. And then it just you get more in tune with like that inner knowing and that like being able to hear and then follow that. Christie: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's and when you're when you grow up sometimes with religious families or like just certain types of toxic families, narcissistic families. We're all a little narcissistic, but like the the families that you and I discuss, you are taught not to put yourself first. So what you're doing is rewiring your brain and going to spend time with that hurt little version of you that was taught so backwards to never put yourself first. That is a lot of energy and that will make you very tired. And I think I wasn't expecting needing to take so many naps because I'm also a high performer. So I hope people listening too, as you have these realizations and you act on your urges, you're going to be very tired. But that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. Katie Grace: Yes. my gosh, I'm so happy that you brought up naps because naps were literally a critical component of writing my book. I had to I can't tell you the amount of times I had to stop writing and go take a nap because I like could not I it exhausted me in levels that like I can't even explain because it was so Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: much like inner soul work. And I had to even if I just went and like took a nap for like 30 minutes to an hour and then I'd wake and I'd be like, okay. I can do this, I can keep going, but it is it's exhausting. Christie: Yeah, yeah. And I think in those naps, I think we go to sleep and we go talk to our guides for a second. I think they're like, good job. Like keep going. I I believe in religion and like a little spiritual element. So I think Jesus existed, but I also think we have people and entities that watch over us. And I always after I would come out of those naps, I would have crazy dreams too. So I got a dream decoder and all of our dreams are metaphors and It was really fun for me because I I didn't even mention this. One of my brothers took his life in the in the thunderstorm that was like a family season of none of us getting along. And we ha we had parents who would send mean, angry letters, and he got a really nasty letter and he was down and out and it's like the last thing he needed. Katie Grace: So sorry. Christie: I don't know, I I deviated. Why did I bring this up? What were we talking about? naps. I was working on these videos, and I would need to lay down and I would have dreams about him that were kind of upsetting, but when I decoded them, the dreams are meant to capture your attention and like help you remember it. Dreams that we remember are messages. And when you decode the metaphors, I was like, I'm processing that I was caretaking him. It's not just that I had a dream that I shoved him out a window. it was every even the window and the color of the walls, all of it had meaning. So any of you listening, when you take your naps, if you have a wild dream, get a dream decoder or ChatGPT, I've cross-checked. It's it's pretty accurate in decoding the dreams that you remember and the messages that are meant to come from them. Katie Grace: That is super interesting. I'm gonna I'm gonna remember that because I'm the type Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: of person that does not usually remember my dreams, but then when I do, it's because it was like really wild. And Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: sometimes I can have like an idea of what it means for myself, but I've never tried looking at something like more, you know, professional like that. So I'm gonna try that. Could Christie: Yeah. Yeah. Katie Grace: we could we shift a little bit into I mean, I could ask you a million questions all day long about your your own story and personal journey, maybe on another episode sometime. But I wonder if we can shift a little bit into the educators hat that you wear as well, because you mentioned Darvo earlier and learning a lot about that. I would love if we could expand on that acronym and kind of what you've learned. what have you learned about like toxic people and environments that we can sort of get trapped within? Christie: Sure. one of the the biggest compliments that happens to me online is that people mistake me for a therapist. Which is my autism speaking that my family didn't believe that I had, which was another Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: like, okay. but I was I've always been on a war path for answers and trying to figure out how life works because I felt like I kept doing it wrong and I couldn't understand body language and I I take everything so personally and so lot like I didn't understand manipulation because I didn't do it, because it would never occur to me to hurt someone to get what I want. So it's a big Important hoop to jump through for every empath to learn how manipulation works. And I have a ton of books linked on my Instagram page that you don't have to read in order, but you skim them to see that this is all a game. And like I said in the beginning, it's not enough to go through life just being nice. You're gonna get your butt kicked. You need to learn how to protect yourself. So learning what Darvo was, and you know, my videos get very educational because I'm teaching everyone like these were the aha moments. Where I realized, I can't have a relationship with my mom because she does these things. And so Darvo was a big one. And Darvo, if there's one thing to learn about manipulation, to

take with for the rest of your life, Darvo is an acronym that stands for deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender. So this is like, let's say, for example, Katie, you stomped on my foot, like right in front of me, and I saw you do it, and I'm in pain, and I go, ow! And you're like, What's wrong with you? Or why are you being so sensitive? what are you talking about? I'm like, you stomped on my foot. You're like, no, I didn't. That's the deny part. What are you? I didn't do that. I don't remember that. We've all heard this from people in our life who are challenging. And because we are logical empaths, we're like, we keep going. We think you misunderstood. We don't get that this is a manipulation tactic. We're like, yes, you did. And we get upset. We're like, I was right here. You stomped on my foot. It hurt. I'm in pain. I know I'm not. making this up, then they go into attack and they're like, Why do you always have to make a big deal out of everything? Why are you so sensitive? you know, need therapy. They'll they'll attack your character. And then you're we take the bait even more because we still think they don't understand. And then they go into reverse victim and offender. We're like, you did, and now I'm mad because you're like making me feel like it's not a big deal. And then they go like, You always do this, and this is why we can't have nice things, you know, like and then it's just this big curfew Fuffle of a fight, a circular argument, and then you're like, pow! you walk away from it, what just happened? But they'll say things like, You need help, you're crazy, and that hurts, and that is Katie Grace: Yes. Christie: not okay. And so that's why we have the jade technique, which is don't justify, argue, defend, or explain. You have to protect yourself against people who are trying to manipulate you to get what they want and understand that that is a thing that people do, and sometimes it's your mom. Sometimes it's your spouse, and that's scary to realize I married someone manipulative or I come from someone who's manipulative. But learning to set boundaries properly, which follow an if-then format, and then you follow through and use the JADE technique, you just have to pay attention to who does this to you, and at some point in your life you gotta do something about it. That's what I've learned about toxic narcissistic people is I don't play that game. I don't let people like that into my life. And if that means I have to be alone, so be it, because I'm not wrecking my mental health for you to tell me that you I can't trust my body and the electrical signals that are happening when you made me feel embarrassed, when you made me feel like I'm less than, like I trust my body for the first time in my life, and I trust my instincts. So like learning Darvo and paying attention to who does it will change your life. But be ready to make some changes and just know that you're never gonna be ready. to make those changes. It sucks to let go Katie Grace: Yeah. Christie: of people who Darvo, but it will make you it will give you chronic illness. It will make you anxious. It will make you depressed to have people in your life who Darvo you. Katie Grace: boy. Yeah. I'm not going to get into it all here, but I yeah. I I relate to everything that you just shared so deeply. And it was absolutely game changing for me as well to start learning about these things. I didn't even actually hear the term Darvo, I think, until I started watching your content whenever that was, like over a year ago. But I had I had learned about the general like patterns of behavior that fall into that category. And recognizing it and recognizing what it was doing to my nervous system completely changed my life. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts to share on like this entire wave of people, typically, the older generations above us that are calling the, no contact like thing a trend, you know, Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: that it's just this like fad, that it's this ungrateful youthful generation who they just don't know how to deal with their things or they don't know how to be grateful for what they had. that kind of stuff immediately gets under my skin because and I'm not very vocal about it right now on my platforms. Maybe I will be, but it just completely minimizes the story and the pain and the journey and like I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Christie: Yeah, yeah, that's Darvo on a group scale. They're like, people who Darvo you can't take accountability. That's the root of it. And relationships need repair because we're all human and we all have different preferences. So at some point with your best friend, you're gonna tick them off or they're gonna feel upset. And they just need to be able to bring it up to you and you need to listen and like change your behavior and like take it seriously so that you can repair the ruptures that are inevitable. But the people who can't repair They will darvo. And so, it's the therapists, it's they're ungrateful. It's like they will do anything but self-reflect. And I know your following and my following has the kind of parents or siblings or family units where like you're hey, you did neglect me. Hey, you did hit us pretty hard. Hey, you did scream. And they're they can't handle the ego death of looking in the mirror because they haven't done any work. They ha, doing the work is something we all need to do, but we are, if if your family makes you feel like you're less than, you are way superior to them with regards to emotional intelligence. They are like toddlers with emotional intelligence. So I think what we're seeing is a whole generation that's never taken accountability, and all of us are having a spiritual awakening, being like, we have kids now too. We want to bring in a new society, a new world. I think we're raising our consciousness as a as the human species. There's a book, a great book called The Map of Human Consciousness, and it

shows how life is like a spectrum. And our our parents tend to operate out of shame, grief, anger, and we operate more out of neutrality, willingness, love, and those are higher states of consciousness. So sometimes you have to leave people to their suffering. And like if you really think it's the therapist's fault that your kid doesn't talk to you, that's a you problem. And I think that's why this is continuing to be a a trend for them and for us, it's like a an uprising in a really beautiful way. because we got kids that we're modeling things for, and we're not gonna sit around and and let you darvo us in front of them or, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner. Like you need to earn access to me. And Last thing is at the end of my life, if my kids don't want to be around me, if my kids don't want to be there, if they don't want a relationship with me, that is my fault. 100% it is on me as a parent to foster a relationship now with them as children, make them feel safe, let them and demonstrate to them that I'm an adult that they can trust, no matter what happens. It's not that I fix every problem for them, but they know that I'm emotionally safe. Our parents didn't do that. So now when we're trying to have the hard conversations, why do we think that they suddenly will have all these emotional tools and be so willing when they've never done it for us and that they even treated us the way they did as kids in the first place? They didn't know any better, but without repair, without hard conversations, there's no relationship. So for them it's a trend. For us, it's an awakening. And it's because we Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: live in it literally experience the world differently. Katie Grace: Yeah. Yep. I could not agree more. at this time there's limited research about it all. But from what I understand, the the people who are choosing to go no contact with their parents or family members or friends or exes, like whatever it is, it is usually a last resort. It's like it's not because they just on a whim Christie: for sure Katie Grace: decided like I don't want you in my life anymore. It's usually because there has been many, many, many attempts at repair and conversation, many, many, many Christie: Hmm. Katie Grace: attempts to express like where they are coming from, what they need. And it's Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: all met with Darvo. every single time and that it at some point it'll be different from person to person but at some point you hit a breaking point and you can't do it anymore. You can't Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: handle that much like attacking at of your nervous system all the time. Christie: it has deadly consequences. My brother isn't here anymore because he just couldn't take he died of shame when he needed thank Katie Grace: I'm so sorry. Christie: you. When he needed his family to wrap their arms around him and say, No matter what you need, we're here. But my family was the one that instilled the shame, so they could never be the ones to undo it unless they had some kind of an awakening. But yeah, I anyone who says this is a trend doesn't see how we are. I was in bed shaking, scream crying. Like, am I really to this point? Cause he had just died and I was like, I feel like I'm dying, but the version of me that was tolerating how they treat people, that version of me was dying. And you gotta hang on through those dark nights where you gotta make some scary choices and just do what's best for you and just trust that on the other side of that, no matter what people say about your decision, there is a whole community of people who follow you, who follow me, who are also going through it. So, like there's nothing wrong with you, and you're not crazy, and you're not the only one. Because it's so Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Christie: isolate, it is so isolating to go through something like this in your personal world. But online. You aren't there is no way. yeah, there's videos out there that are getting people to think differently, but people are doing this all over the world. Katie Grace: Yeah. Christie: All people all over the world have had those same scream, cry, shaking moments of I can't do this anymore. But it feels like there's something wrong with you when it's happening. you failed. Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. I think, yeah. I think that when you're in it, there's there's so many layers. There's when you're in it, there's what's happening physiologically. So a lot of times, you know, you can get that like tunnel vision s feeling, sometimes even physically. You know, everything feels like the world is caving in around you. And so that alone can feel so isolating because it's happening in your body. And a Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: lot of times the people around you do not even understand, they don't know how to help. Maybe they don't want to help. Maybe they're angry at you for even experiencing that or being chronically ill, whatever it is. And then there's also all of the gaslighting that, you know, if if your nervous system is shutting down or being triggered or responding this way, then it's likely because, you know, there are lots of people in your life or one person who's significant in your life who is triggering you and not taking accountability and gaslighting you. and making Christie: Mm-hmm. Katie Grace: you literally feel crazy. So yeah, Christie: Mm. Katie Grace: I we need people talking about this and shouting it from Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: the rooftops. And you are, I'm so thankful that you are. Christie: Yeah, and and to you too, and to anyone listening who's like, God, I could never get online and talk about what happened. I thought the same thing until I did it and it changed my life. So there's no pressure, but like if you're feeling pulled or called, I think that might be a mission or a purpose of yours. And it is great shadow work. it's accelerated my healing, although we can't ever rush that process. It's made my healing more fun

and we need voices like yours too, as many voices as we can get. You're saving we're saving lives. I needed certain videos on certain days that got me to hang on just one more day. And it's just so important that we're able to talk about it. And I do think social media has accelerated this trend or awakening, depending on what part of the spectrum you live on. But I'm here for it because at the end of the day, it's so if if doing what's best for you makes someone angry, that's weird. That's really weird. And if it's your family, that's extra weird. That's not right. Katie Grace: Yeah. Christie: So, like, pay attention and don't try not when you panic, just remember I said try not to panic, and that this was supposed to happen and it was inevitable. And you're never too old or young to say this doesn't serve me anymore. You're allowed Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Christie: the sooner, even if you're sixty-seven years old, seventy-eight, eighty-nine years old, whatever, it's still not too late to be like, this person can't talk to me this way anymore. And that will be a win that you can take to your grave and not die with regret. You can at least say that you bet on yourself a few times. And it's worth it. Katie Grace: It is. It really, really is. Christie, this has been the most heartwarming and healing conversation. I don't even think I can properly express to you how much like even I personally needed to hear some of this. And I know it's going to be incredibly meaningful for our following of listeners. I'm like tearing up as I'm thinking about it. I am so thankful to you and for your work and for what you're doing and just and for being here. What what would you like to share for listeners in how they can follow you, your social Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: media. And then I know you also have some offerings, you've got a coaching call offering, I'll put Christie: Yeah. Katie Grace: it all in the show notes. Christie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm at Christie.heals on Instagram and TikTok. YouTube's funky. I'm just Christie.hoffman because I gotta get that username. But I just started a Patreon because I had so many offerings. So joining my Patreon is the best place to get support. you're gonna have community people just like you, you can talk to. I do live QA's. It's just like a few bucks to join because I just wanna help as many people as possible. if you need to talk, again I'm not a therapist, but sometimes That's better because I've been through so much. You just need to talk to someone who gets it, who believes you. And if you want advice, I always have advice after I hear someone's story. And I just I want to be as available as possible to anyone who's feeling like they don't want to be here anymore. Like, hold on, let's talk first. You know, like you're so close. Don't don't quit the video game and rip the console out of the wall right before the game gets good. It's not always Katie Grace: Yeah. Christie: all gonna be bad. So Patreon is the best place to get all kinds of support. and I have a course that teaches you boundaries in Patreon. You learn boundaries, you learn Darvo, you learn everything I teach on my page in your own, you can go at your own pace. Katie Grace: That is awesome. That's so great. I'm gonna make sure, I'll check in with you, make sure I have all the right links, but I'll put them in the show notes. So anybody who just clicks on the episode description, you'll find all of that there. And I really encourage you to like get connected to community. because it's it's a game changer. And for so many people, like you said, it is completely life-saving. speaking of community, I also have it's also Patreon, but I've structured it on my website as like a community I'm calling the table. So if People, want more of these types of conversations when it comes to reconstructing your life. So it could be reconstructing from religious harm. It could be reconstructing your beliefs, like your identity, like any of these things that fall under this umbrella. I would invite you to come and sit at the table. So you can go to thekatiegrace.com. It's five dollars a month. And for right now, what we're doing is a monthly book club. So we're going through one book that has to do with these sorts of topics. And then at the end of the month, we're having a QA with the author or at least an expert in that area so that we can get more personalized support and continue the conversation. So thekatiegrace.com will have what you need to know and it's in the show notes as well. Christie, again, thank you so much for being here. Christie: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. we need voices just like yours and your book is incredible, so I can't wait for people to get their hands on it. Katie Grace: Thank you. Thank you so much. Christie: You're welcome.