Derek Miller: I think bringing that human element to the sales process is vital. And know that, as a salesperson, it it is gold to have your personality come through. Right. That that's
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: still at the end of the day in in a world of automations, differentiate yourself by being a real human.
Rory Anderson: Welcome back to the Property Playbook, the property management podcast that unlocks leadership lessons from experts in the trenches of multifamily. We are officially kicking off season two of the property playbook. And before we jump in, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much to everyone who has listened, who has shared an episode, left a review, sent me an email or a message or reached out to tell me something that you heard on the show that impacted you. That support and that feedback from this community has honestly been one of my favorite parts of doing this podcast. And when I started the property playbook, the goal was pretty much You know, let's let's create a resource for people in multifamily who want to learn and grow and get better at what they do by hearing from people who are actually in the trenches, right, of this industry. And what I've loved most is hearing what you are doing with those conversations, the ideas that you're putting into practice and the opportunities that have opened up, the challenges that you've approached differently, maybe, and the personal and the professional growth that you've experienced along the way. Because That is exactly why this podcast exists. So thank you so much for being part of the property playbook community. I'm incredibly excited about what we have planned for season two, and I can't wait to keep learning and growing alongside you. So today we are starting season two with a six-part mini-series all about multifamily marketing. And I brought in someone who really understands how marketing connects to actual property performance. So these episodes are going to be short. They're going to be focused on one topic per episode so that they're more bite-sized and easier to digest. But don't worry, after this miniseries, we'll be back with full-length episodes all about leadership and how you can continue to grow yourself. That said, I am so happy to welcome Derek Miller to the podcast for our six-part miniseries. Derek is a strategic marketing leader with more than 13 years of experience across multifamily investment marketing, digital strategy, and brand transformation. He has overseen marketing for more than 10,000 apartment homes across 35 plus communities and managed more than a million dollars in annual marketing investment. But today we are going to start with the foundation, the marketing funnel. Because when occupancies start slipping, our first reaction sometimes is, we need more leads, we need more leads. But what if traffic isn't actually the problem? What if the leads are already there and we're losing them somewhere between that first click and the signed lease? So Derek, super excited to have you. Welcome to the property playbook.
Derek Miller: Thanks, Rory. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited. I'm eager to hop in.
Rory Anderson: it's gonna be so good. I'm excited to hear about your experience and what you're doing right now because you are in the trenches
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: and we were just talking about how you guys are moving into a new software and that's I mean, that's just part of this the world we live in right now. Right? It's like
Derek Miller: Right. Yeah, no, I it's I feel I feel like you know, there's some new software being implemented in multifamily like almost every other quarter, it feels like. So
Rory Anderson: Yep.
Derek Miller: we're always on our toes.
Rory Anderson: And it's funny because before we started, you know, Derek and I were just chatting about how there's just a lot of work that goes into that, a lot of behind the scenes work that is
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: being done by real people like Derek that and his team that just takes time. It takes it takes time, it takes those very, very intricate details and attention to detail, right?
Derek Miller: Yeah, no, I you know, one thing that I joke about with people with marketing and being successful in it, right, is like how good are you at being meticulous with the little details, all that stuff
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: adds up, you know, I I'm one that, you know, fo photo order matters like a ton to me, right? making
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: sure that visually everything is aligned, so that there's nothing that seems off to a prospect. So it's You know, it's I think you have to be a little neurotic to be in marketing. But you know, that's I I guess, you know, that's what we signed up for, right?
Rory Anderson: It's right. I mean, like that's the that's the thing you do that neuroses or O C D pays off in the end though, I think. 'Cause when I look
Derek Miller: Yeah. Yes.
Rory Anderson: at somebody's website or I look at somebody's branding, you can tell when it's been done well and you can tell when it's been kind of just thrown together.
Derek Miller: Yeah, no, and you know, very excited to hop in through the strategies of everything, as we continue to roll out this mini series. But you know, one of the things that I I really value is just that attention, to detail. And I I I've been asked at times, like, hey, like do you feel scared in public speaking or you know in podcasts or whatever that, you know, are you giving away secret sauce? And I'm like, I I think the secret sauce is putting more work in than the next guy. Right? And and so I'm confident that even in with whatever I'm sharing, ultimately edge of the day we all have to put in the work. And so if you're not willing to dive in, put in the work, get meticulous, then then really, the learnings like this don't really do much for you. So
Rory Anderson: Yeah, you can talk about it all you want, right?
Derek Miller: Yeah, exactly. We'd I could talk all day, you know, but are we really doing it in practice and that's the thing that you know I'm excited to kinda hop into.
Rory Anderson: I love that. And that's really what sets good marketing teams, and good multifamily teams, honestly, apart, right? Is putting in the work. You n you know what to do, but are you doing it? That's
Derek Miller: Yeah. Do you have you created a strategic plan around it? Are you operating it? as well as, you know, the real life s things that go on and the you could say the distracting components that take away from the strategy that you have to plan out and solve immediate issues as well. So
Rory Anderson: Yeah, yeah, so good. So let's start by breaking down the funnel. here here's something that I want to maybe help people understand because people on the ground, sometimes in that are sitting in the property manager's
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: chair, don't often understand w the leasing funnel and how that works from a
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: higher level. And you know, it I always say this and this is not a knock, but this is just I think a reality. Like property management companies don't become property management companies because they were good at marketing. They become property management companies because they know how to do fair housing laws. They know they they know understand the intricacies of that. They understand how to bring people in in and show them an apartment and then manage it and operate it well and take care of their their things and fix things. Right. The I think the operations side is usually the stronger side of property management. And so as we kind of share this information, I I like to help educate people on the on the marketing because marketing is your driver. Like that is if you don't have people coming in the door, you don't have a business. And that's for any sales is the driver of any business, right? So
Derek Miller: Right. Exactly.
Rory Anderson: yeah, so you know, everyone wants more leads, but Is lead volume actually the problem most communities have? walk us through that. What is your thought on that?
Derek Miller: Yeah, from from my experience in being in multifamily leads, I'd say for the most part are not the issue, I think really a lot of properties, if anything, overspend on marketing and pay for really high-level, you know, ILS plans for an asset that could be stabilized or a smaller market. and a true focus on the full funnel isn't really analyzed as closely, So it's like, hey, if we just throw money at it, if we pay for, you
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: know, the highest plan levels, it shouldn't be an issue and we just go about our day. What I what I'm lucky in, at least in the position that I'm at currently, you know, I'm with an owner operator. And so what I like to tell our leadership group is I am working to be the best steward of your dollars. Right. And
Rory Anderson: Love that.
Derek Miller: and so because of that, I'm not going to take, let's say, an approach that maybe some property management companies could have of just essentially like our job is to keep it occupied. Right. And so to keep it occupied, we're gonna just make sure we leave no rock unturned and we're gonna pay for you know high level plans. I'm gonna go ultra ultra premium on everything. where you know, f for for me, I am again the steward on behalf of the owner to make sure that we are strategically running all the initiatives really at the best cost possible, And and it's not always necessary to have those high-level spends to drive top of funnel leads, right? there are other
Rory Anderson: Okay.
Derek Miller: parts in your leasing funnel that are vital to the success. And so just focusing on the top of the funnel is I think something that multifamily probably focuses too much on a lot of times.
Rory Anderson: I would agree with that. And I I do think because a lot of management companies have to rely on outside third party
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: sources for ad spend and for ad strategy, I think that sometimes there's a a disconnect in that. And I I do feel your I feel your pain on this because I have seen where we're relying on a third party to give us information about leads.
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: And it's not really the information that is pertinent to what's actually happening on the ground. And so there's
Derek Miller: Correct. Yeah.
Rory Anderson: this disconnect in in the funnel. And so I guess to just to walk back for our listeners for a second, let's talk about what the apartment marketing funnel looks like from first impression to assigned lease and what what those stages are, just so that everybody kind of understands
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: this ethereal notion of These peop I don't
Derek Miller: What are the final?
Rory Anderson: know how these people are getting to us, but they're getting to us, right? And then they
Derek Miller: Right.
Rory Anderson: finally walk in the door, hopefully.
Derek Miller: Yeah, yeah. And and what's what's interesting I think about like defining the funnel, there I I I would say there is a definition almost of this funnel in two different senses, right? I'd say there's
Rory Anderson: Okay.
Derek Miller: a funnel that I discuss with my marketing team, and then it's almost different than what I would talk about the funnel with operations and leadership of the management company. And so when I when I'm talking with my team, I'm looking heavily at impression shares, And conversion rates and click-through rates. But that does not mean that it belongs in the same conversation with the management leadership team. And I think that is something that commonly gets missed, And you go into a leadership conversations with your impression shares and click through rates and all that. And like that to an extent is vanity metrics if you're not really looking at the true prospect funnel. And so when
Rory Anderson: Right.
Derek Miller: I look at the prospect funnel and defining that right is okay, first, you know, our lead is the lead volume coming in from your sources. then, you know, af after the lead has come in, have we scheduled a tour? From the scheduled tour, have we actually had a show? And then after the show, are we looking at the applications that have come in? And then obviously, you know, our applications getting approved and turning ultimately into move-ins. And so when you look at that funnel and those stages and you set KPI metrics for the on-site teams of your maybe maybe your show to application. ratio, right? Or your even, you know, we have a KPI that we look at that is scheduled tour to actual show. And those are ways to actually set those expectations of are the teams on site performing at the level that we we need to then know are we bringing enough top of funnel lead volume when you do the math backwards.
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: And so if you're off at those other KPIs, then it's like it may not be a top of funnel issue, but another, let's say, P in your system. you know, we focus heavily on our four P, so it's a people, is a product, is a promotion, you know, is it one of those are off, right,
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: then it will show up in the numbers.
Rory Anderson: Yeah, and I I want people to understand as far as when we talk about a funnel, like if you're a property manager, you think of a funnel coming from the top, coming down, getting smaller, right? So, and that that is your you to when we say top of funnel, that's like here's everybody that could ever come to your property, Well, all the people that see an impression or have a glimpse of what your property is on online. are not gonna come to your property, right? Not everybody is going to end up coming to do a show. So th so that's where we're saying like there's this large body of people and we whittle that down to the next stage and the next stage and the next stage of the sales process. so when we talk about a funnel, that's what we're talking about. I just wanted to kind of explain that
Derek Miller: Yes. Yeah, perfect.
Rory Anderson: so that people understand. And then obviously you get down to the very bottom which your smallest number is going to be people that actually sign a lease and move in.
Derek Miller: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And and a another thing that we've been diving into recently at you know Sterling is looking at Does that funnel just end that move in, right? Or is there even additional steps of your move taking into effect your move outside
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: that net, you know, really your net move in? and there's even some marketing strategies that you have to set for your move outs and it managing those expectations as well. So ultimately any one of those stages could be off other than top of funnel, And and I'd say in my experience,
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: it is not the first issue typically where it's at the top of of the phone.
Rory Anderson: Well, and and g yeah, going back to what you said at the very beginning, like sometimes we just wanna throw money at it. Throwing money at it often helps with the top of the funnel, but it but if you have a problem somewhere in the middle of your funnel of your whether it's like your on-site leasing team or your closing process or whatever it is, if if something is not working there, then it doesn't matter how much money you're you're throwing at at your lead sources because you might not really be able to close them effectively
Derek Miller: Hey.
Rory Anderson: and there might be something there that you need to address.
Derek Miller: Yeah, a a hundred percent, And I I think like in this market in particular, I'm like we're in some really tough markets of like Atlanta,
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: Huntsville, where it's, you know, very saturated and you know, pricing's way different than it was almost like two, three years ago, right? Like we're not seeing
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Derek Miller: like double digit rent growth. And so really being on top of what are your comps doing, you know, even I would say what it's not a traditional comp, let's say if you're a stabilized asset
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: and all of a sudden a new lease ups in where you wouldn't typically think of that in a market like this, but concessions being so high at this time is like all of a sudden now they're competing with a stabilized asset price. Right. And so all of those type of things have to be analyzed when you're not hitting your occupancy goals. And and again it's easy to be like, hey, like let's just throw more money at it to try to drive lead volume, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's those are gonna convert.
Rory Anderson: Yeah. So let's talk about that. Where do you typically see the biggest leaks in the funnel? Or from your experience, I guess maybe it doesn't not the biggest leaks, but where where have you seen problems where you're like, Okay, we've got a gap here that we've got to fill.
Derek Miller: Yeah, it can be market dependent, really, at times, even in the sense of in very saturated markets, I would say price and staying on top of your comp set may be something that's you know, more difficult to keep track of. and something where you may need to fluctuate those expectations other than again top of funnel marketing volume. but I would also s I also see in other areas that it can be a team difficulty especially if let's say there's been recent turnover.
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: And it's like again, we could I could try to drive more lead volume, but if there's no one to manage the leads on site, then we're just really just spending money for not any additional help, right? Like it I can't solve the problem that there's only one person in on staff, right?
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: and so then let's maybe focus on our automations, And how can we implement, technologies that help with follow ups and, you know, things of
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: that nature instead. And I'd rather put maybe dollars or strategies around that for a team that's maybe like low staffed, for example.
Rory Anderson: That's a great example. And I think one one of the things that I've learned is that every management company approaches this a little bit differently, but when there is a disconnect from what's happening on the marketing side and the operations team and they don't talk to each other on a regular
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: basis, that becomes a a a pain point because
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: they're not so we we call this a marketing loop, right? The marketing marketing loop doesn't get closed when there's not information from the operations side that gets back to the sales side. Have you seen that?
Derek Miller: Yeah. Yeah, no, I a hundred percent agree with that because we're I think unfortunately in again in multifamily it's easy to fall into hey this is my job, my responsibility, and they're silos, So marketing is jobs just to bring in leads. You know, revenue management is just make sure the price is right. You know, the operations, make sure the people, you know, are doing supposed to but really they should be all talking, together.
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: And you know, ultimately at the end the day, each property has their own individual strategies, right? you may have financing goals you have to hit, and you may need like, let's say, rents high compared to offering larger and you can offer larger concessions, right? But
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: whereas other times you may just want the net rent to be lower for those financing goals. Well, all of that is strategies that the revenue manager is working on, asset management. working on operations are and if I'm not in sync with let's say hey we need to keep the prices high for our financing and I am skinny down marketing efforts or I'm not driving let's say a higher lead volume taking that into effect because I know that more people are will drop off
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: that's the a misalignment, right? But then s but similarly, if our goal is to be, let's say, lower priced in the market and hold a higher occupancy, then I don't need to spend as much there, right? because
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: price is the driving factor. So people that are doing their filter searches on ILSs and et cetera will convert because you're in the right price. It doesn't really matter as much
Rory Anderson: Right.
Derek Miller: of like if you're on top of the page or on page three if they're filtering it and you're, you know, and trying to get a thousand dollar apartment, for example.
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, really good point. So if you inherited a struggling property tomorrow, what are the metrics you would look at first before spending another dollar on advertising?
Derek Miller: Yeah, so being a data n you know nerd to for some sense,
Rory Anderson: Ha ha
Derek Miller: like I I'm instantly pulling like their traffic reports, and have lead sources included in that, And so I wanna see where are we spending our dollars what are they actually producing, as well as our own organic traffic, and see how much of the weight is it pulling? you know, so I look at that, I'd say typically first, and I even do, let's say, like a cost per move in type of analysis.
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: You know, I I know that like leasing is not a just a lateral straight line, right? In the sen or like marketing
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: in the sense of like, okay, you may go to apartments.com, but then you may Google search and then you'll do other, you know, stages. But it's at least a great baseline for me to understand are are we bleeding cash in unnecessary areas, and so you know, first I look at that. So let's say a struggling property is on a really high, let's say, ILS plan, but the move ins don't match, right, then maybe it's worth taking those lowering the plan, taking those dollars and reallocating them to an initiative that is working, right?
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: And so you know, I I I find like different ILSs perform differently also in different markets. So it's like, okay,
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Derek Miller: you know, so it may be like, okay, like if I'm pi overpaying in this one, but this one's actually producing, well what what happens if I put those dollars towards the one that is working? Right? Are we gonna drive
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: more lead volume there? You know, so that I would say that's like the first step that I would take is really just understanding where the leads are coming from, how how are they moving through each stage that we discussed earlier.
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: but then also looking at where if if they're if those leads are not performing in those stages, where are they falling off in that stage? And so if I see, I what I would typically say is organic channels are typically more maybe qualified traffic because they're ones that have done more research, right? They've come in, they've come through an own channel that has more robust information. But and I'd say your paid channels are the harder sell leads, and so if I see those the paid channels not producing or converting through the stage of let's say like your show to application stage, then what do we need to do with the on-site team to make them feel confident in selling? and you know again is it they're struggling to sell the price? is it the s curb appeal that's off? You know, and you could really kind of then hone in into how can we help them really be successful.
Rory Anderson: Yeah, such good points. So let me ask you this. If you what's one simple change that you you find that a leasing team could make this week even that would immediately improve conversions? Like what do you see that you're like, I wish I could just tell them this?
Derek Miller: Yeah. Ooh. That's a that's a that's a tough one because, you know, I I think it is can be property dependent.
Rory Anderson: Yes. For sure.
Derek Miller: you know, I I would say in an era where, we focused heavily on speed to lead, So that lead has come in, you may have AI automations responding to that
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: lead before you even get the chance to. what I would encourage on-sites teams to do is utilize your CRM and see what information has already been gathered, and then actually pick up the phone and call the prospect. I think a lot of technologies right now are heavily text. They're heavily
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: email. but we're not at the stage yet where AI's making outbound calls yet. And if it is, it's not doing a good job, right? And so
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: to me, I think bringing that human element to the sales process is vital. And know that, as a salesperson, it it is gold to have your personality come through. Right. That that's
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: still at the end of the day in in a world of automations, differentiate yourself by being a real human.
Rory Anderson: Yes. And I agree with you. Pick up the phone and call them because I wanna know like I w I have questions that I don't feel like AI maybe can answer and and I just wanna know well, what's the general feeling of the property? Like, does it you know, like what do what what are people's hobbies there and what do they like to do? Like am I gonna fit in here? Am I gonna is this gonna be a good
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: place for me? And that's not something I a I'm gonna tell you, you know?
Derek Miller: Yeah, well no, yeah, and in and what I even have seen, is the human connection, standpoint is you may like again, AI may have answered the questions, but to get that even, let's say, like, scheduled tour to actually show up
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: It's the salesperson that can make the difference there. And so you can
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: be like, Hey, you know, you if you call, I I'm super excited to see that, you've you've scheduled a tour. We're very looking forward to having you. I'm Derek. I'll be the one giving you the tour.
Rory Anderson: I'm a real person.
Derek Miller: Right, I'm a real person, you know. if if you have any, things that you want me to prepare ahead of time, to make sure that we, schedule your tour the best for you, right? Like all of that makes a big difference. And
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: just that, let's say, AI chat bot conversation and them saying, yeah, I'll come at one o'clock on Tuesday doesn't necessarily provide that same obligation of like, I actually maybe should show up.
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: I even take that even a step, further. again, if people aren't answering the phone, leave a a voicemail, because again, you can hear that personality
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: come through. but then also take this opportunity, especially in very competitive markets, to try to even get them to come in earlier.
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: one of the things that I've noticed is again, For a company that does pride itself in the human experience, we don't want to be the cheapest on the market. So what t can happen at times, is someone schedules out four or five tours. If you're at the very tail end of that tour experience, they may have given like not even decide to show up because they've given up, right? Or like in the sense of like, we
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: already I found something I like that's not worth it to me anymore. But if you're given a call, setting an expectation, then I'm excited for you, I'm here, I'm building this personalized tour for you, and then hey, is it even a chance you want to come in earlier because I can lock in this pricing today. Any all of those things make a difference to actually to the success. The person already said that they are interested. So let's capitalize on it.
Rory Anderson: I could not agree more with you. And you know what? The person that takes that AI lead first
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: and actually makes that human connection first. I do I really do think you have a much stronger conversion rate i in the end. I gotta believe that that I mean at least for me personally, you're gonna
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: win my business.
Derek Miller: Well and what what's great, again, I I think what typically and this probably is a whole nother topic that we'll do in another, you know, episode, right? So not to go too far down the wormhole here, but I I I do think that again in an era where you have automations, going out and people like are buying software left and right. There is really a true evaluation of what that implementation looks like and where does the human element fall into play with that? Because you actually have to re think about the human experience, right? And so again, thinking about
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: your full funnel, where are your technologies and human interactions aligning at each of those stages to create the perfect you know, like s stage and experience for that prospect.
Rory Anderson: Yeah, so true. Well, Derek, if there's one takeaway from today for me, it's this. Before you go spend more money generating leads, figure out what's happening to the leads that you already have. Traffics, appointments, tours, you know, applications, approvals, and the leases, they all tell a story. And when you understand where the prospects are falling out of that funnel, you can stop guessing and then you can start fixing the problem. So
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: I really appreciate you helping us break it down. We'll keep building on this in part two, so stay tuned.
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: Next we're gonna talk about traffic quality versus quantity. But until next time, keep leading great teams, keep leveling yourself up and go be a light and a blessing to someone else.
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: still at the end of the day in in a world of automations, differentiate yourself by being a real human.
Rory Anderson: Welcome back to the Property Playbook, the property management podcast that unlocks leadership lessons from experts in the trenches of multifamily. We are officially kicking off season two of the property playbook. And before we jump in, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much to everyone who has listened, who has shared an episode, left a review, sent me an email or a message or reached out to tell me something that you heard on the show that impacted you. That support and that feedback from this community has honestly been one of my favorite parts of doing this podcast. And when I started the property playbook, the goal was pretty much You know, let's let's create a resource for people in multifamily who want to learn and grow and get better at what they do by hearing from people who are actually in the trenches, right, of this industry. And what I've loved most is hearing what you are doing with those conversations, the ideas that you're putting into practice and the opportunities that have opened up, the challenges that you've approached differently, maybe, and the personal and the professional growth that you've experienced along the way. Because That is exactly why this podcast exists. So thank you so much for being part of the property playbook community. I'm incredibly excited about what we have planned for season two, and I can't wait to keep learning and growing alongside you. So today we are starting season two with a six-part mini-series all about multifamily marketing. And I brought in someone who really understands how marketing connects to actual property performance. So these episodes are going to be short. They're going to be focused on one topic per episode so that they're more bite-sized and easier to digest. But don't worry, after this miniseries, we'll be back with full-length episodes all about leadership and how you can continue to grow yourself. That said, I am so happy to welcome Derek Miller to the podcast for our six-part miniseries. Derek is a strategic marketing leader with more than 13 years of experience across multifamily investment marketing, digital strategy, and brand transformation. He has overseen marketing for more than 10,000 apartment homes across 35 plus communities and managed more than a million dollars in annual marketing investment. But today we are going to start with the foundation, the marketing funnel. Because when occupancies start slipping, our first reaction sometimes is, we need more leads, we need more leads. But what if traffic isn't actually the problem? What if the leads are already there and we're losing them somewhere between that first click and the signed lease? So Derek, super excited to have you. Welcome to the property playbook.
Derek Miller: Thanks, Rory. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited. I'm eager to hop in.
Rory Anderson: it's gonna be so good. I'm excited to hear about your experience and what you're doing right now because you are in the trenches
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: and we were just talking about how you guys are moving into a new software and that's I mean, that's just part of this the world we live in right now. Right? It's like
Derek Miller: Right. Yeah, no, I it's I feel I feel like you know, there's some new software being implemented in multifamily like almost every other quarter, it feels like. So
Rory Anderson: Yep.
Derek Miller: we're always on our toes.
Rory Anderson: And it's funny because before we started, you know, Derek and I were just chatting about how there's just a lot of work that goes into that, a lot of behind the scenes work that is
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: being done by real people like Derek that and his team that just takes time. It takes it takes time, it takes those very, very intricate details and attention to detail, right?
Derek Miller: Yeah, no, I you know, one thing that I joke about with people with marketing and being successful in it, right, is like how good are you at being meticulous with the little details, all that stuff
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: adds up, you know, I I'm one that, you know, fo photo order matters like a ton to me, right? making
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: sure that visually everything is aligned, so that there's nothing that seems off to a prospect. So it's You know, it's I think you have to be a little neurotic to be in marketing. But you know, that's I I guess, you know, that's what we signed up for, right?
Rory Anderson: It's right. I mean, like that's the that's the thing you do that neuroses or O C D pays off in the end though, I think. 'Cause when I look
Derek Miller: Yeah. Yes.
Rory Anderson: at somebody's website or I look at somebody's branding, you can tell when it's been done well and you can tell when it's been kind of just thrown together.
Derek Miller: Yeah, no, and you know, very excited to hop in through the strategies of everything, as we continue to roll out this mini series. But you know, one of the things that I I really value is just that attention, to detail. And I I I've been asked at times, like, hey, like do you feel scared in public speaking or you know in podcasts or whatever that, you know, are you giving away secret sauce? And I'm like, I I think the secret sauce is putting more work in than the next guy. Right? And and so I'm confident that even in with whatever I'm sharing, ultimately edge of the day we all have to put in the work. And so if you're not willing to dive in, put in the work, get meticulous, then then really, the learnings like this don't really do much for you. So
Rory Anderson: Yeah, you can talk about it all you want, right?
Derek Miller: Yeah, exactly. We'd I could talk all day, you know, but are we really doing it in practice and that's the thing that you know I'm excited to kinda hop into.
Rory Anderson: I love that. And that's really what sets good marketing teams, and good multifamily teams, honestly, apart, right? Is putting in the work. You n you know what to do, but are you doing it? That's
Derek Miller: Yeah. Do you have you created a strategic plan around it? Are you operating it? as well as, you know, the real life s things that go on and the you could say the distracting components that take away from the strategy that you have to plan out and solve immediate issues as well. So
Rory Anderson: Yeah, yeah, so good. So let's start by breaking down the funnel. here here's something that I want to maybe help people understand because people on the ground, sometimes in that are sitting in the property manager's
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: chair, don't often understand w the leasing funnel and how that works from a
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: higher level. And you know, it I always say this and this is not a knock, but this is just I think a reality. Like property management companies don't become property management companies because they were good at marketing. They become property management companies because they know how to do fair housing laws. They know they they know understand the intricacies of that. They understand how to bring people in in and show them an apartment and then manage it and operate it well and take care of their their things and fix things. Right. The I think the operations side is usually the stronger side of property management. And so as we kind of share this information, I I like to help educate people on the on the marketing because marketing is your driver. Like that is if you don't have people coming in the door, you don't have a business. And that's for any sales is the driver of any business, right? So
Derek Miller: Right. Exactly.
Rory Anderson: yeah, so you know, everyone wants more leads, but Is lead volume actually the problem most communities have? walk us through that. What is your thought on that?
Derek Miller: Yeah, from from my experience in being in multifamily leads, I'd say for the most part are not the issue, I think really a lot of properties, if anything, overspend on marketing and pay for really high-level, you know, ILS plans for an asset that could be stabilized or a smaller market. and a true focus on the full funnel isn't really analyzed as closely, So it's like, hey, if we just throw money at it, if we pay for, you
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: know, the highest plan levels, it shouldn't be an issue and we just go about our day. What I what I'm lucky in, at least in the position that I'm at currently, you know, I'm with an owner operator. And so what I like to tell our leadership group is I am working to be the best steward of your dollars. Right. And
Rory Anderson: Love that.
Derek Miller: and so because of that, I'm not going to take, let's say, an approach that maybe some property management companies could have of just essentially like our job is to keep it occupied. Right. And so to keep it occupied, we're gonna just make sure we leave no rock unturned and we're gonna pay for you know high level plans. I'm gonna go ultra ultra premium on everything. where you know, f for for me, I am again the steward on behalf of the owner to make sure that we are strategically running all the initiatives really at the best cost possible, And and it's not always necessary to have those high-level spends to drive top of funnel leads, right? there are other
Rory Anderson: Okay.
Derek Miller: parts in your leasing funnel that are vital to the success. And so just focusing on the top of the funnel is I think something that multifamily probably focuses too much on a lot of times.
Rory Anderson: I would agree with that. And I I do think because a lot of management companies have to rely on outside third party
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: sources for ad spend and for ad strategy, I think that sometimes there's a a disconnect in that. And I I do feel your I feel your pain on this because I have seen where we're relying on a third party to give us information about leads.
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: And it's not really the information that is pertinent to what's actually happening on the ground. And so there's
Derek Miller: Correct. Yeah.
Rory Anderson: this disconnect in in the funnel. And so I guess to just to walk back for our listeners for a second, let's talk about what the apartment marketing funnel looks like from first impression to assigned lease and what what those stages are, just so that everybody kind of understands
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: this ethereal notion of These peop I don't
Derek Miller: What are the final?
Rory Anderson: know how these people are getting to us, but they're getting to us, right? And then they
Derek Miller: Right.
Rory Anderson: finally walk in the door, hopefully.
Derek Miller: Yeah, yeah. And and what's what's interesting I think about like defining the funnel, there I I I would say there is a definition almost of this funnel in two different senses, right? I'd say there's
Rory Anderson: Okay.
Derek Miller: a funnel that I discuss with my marketing team, and then it's almost different than what I would talk about the funnel with operations and leadership of the management company. And so when I when I'm talking with my team, I'm looking heavily at impression shares, And conversion rates and click-through rates. But that does not mean that it belongs in the same conversation with the management leadership team. And I think that is something that commonly gets missed, And you go into a leadership conversations with your impression shares and click through rates and all that. And like that to an extent is vanity metrics if you're not really looking at the true prospect funnel. And so when
Rory Anderson: Right.
Derek Miller: I look at the prospect funnel and defining that right is okay, first, you know, our lead is the lead volume coming in from your sources. then, you know, af after the lead has come in, have we scheduled a tour? From the scheduled tour, have we actually had a show? And then after the show, are we looking at the applications that have come in? And then obviously, you know, our applications getting approved and turning ultimately into move-ins. And so when you look at that funnel and those stages and you set KPI metrics for the on-site teams of your maybe maybe your show to application. ratio, right? Or your even, you know, we have a KPI that we look at that is scheduled tour to actual show. And those are ways to actually set those expectations of are the teams on site performing at the level that we we need to then know are we bringing enough top of funnel lead volume when you do the math backwards.
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: And so if you're off at those other KPIs, then it's like it may not be a top of funnel issue, but another, let's say, P in your system. you know, we focus heavily on our four P, so it's a people, is a product, is a promotion, you know, is it one of those are off, right,
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: then it will show up in the numbers.
Rory Anderson: Yeah, and I I want people to understand as far as when we talk about a funnel, like if you're a property manager, you think of a funnel coming from the top, coming down, getting smaller, right? So, and that that is your you to when we say top of funnel, that's like here's everybody that could ever come to your property, Well, all the people that see an impression or have a glimpse of what your property is on online. are not gonna come to your property, right? Not everybody is going to end up coming to do a show. So th so that's where we're saying like there's this large body of people and we whittle that down to the next stage and the next stage and the next stage of the sales process. so when we talk about a funnel, that's what we're talking about. I just wanted to kind of explain that
Derek Miller: Yes. Yeah, perfect.
Rory Anderson: so that people understand. And then obviously you get down to the very bottom which your smallest number is going to be people that actually sign a lease and move in.
Derek Miller: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And and a another thing that we've been diving into recently at you know Sterling is looking at Does that funnel just end that move in, right? Or is there even additional steps of your move taking into effect your move outside
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: that net, you know, really your net move in? and there's even some marketing strategies that you have to set for your move outs and it managing those expectations as well. So ultimately any one of those stages could be off other than top of funnel, And and I'd say in my experience,
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: it is not the first issue typically where it's at the top of of the phone.
Rory Anderson: Well, and and g yeah, going back to what you said at the very beginning, like sometimes we just wanna throw money at it. Throwing money at it often helps with the top of the funnel, but it but if you have a problem somewhere in the middle of your funnel of your whether it's like your on-site leasing team or your closing process or whatever it is, if if something is not working there, then it doesn't matter how much money you're you're throwing at at your lead sources because you might not really be able to close them effectively
Derek Miller: Hey.
Rory Anderson: and there might be something there that you need to address.
Derek Miller: Yeah, a a hundred percent, And I I think like in this market in particular, I'm like we're in some really tough markets of like Atlanta,
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: Huntsville, where it's, you know, very saturated and you know, pricing's way different than it was almost like two, three years ago, right? Like we're not seeing
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Derek Miller: like double digit rent growth. And so really being on top of what are your comps doing, you know, even I would say what it's not a traditional comp, let's say if you're a stabilized asset
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: and all of a sudden a new lease ups in where you wouldn't typically think of that in a market like this, but concessions being so high at this time is like all of a sudden now they're competing with a stabilized asset price. Right. And so all of those type of things have to be analyzed when you're not hitting your occupancy goals. And and again it's easy to be like, hey, like let's just throw more money at it to try to drive lead volume, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's those are gonna convert.
Rory Anderson: Yeah. So let's talk about that. Where do you typically see the biggest leaks in the funnel? Or from your experience, I guess maybe it doesn't not the biggest leaks, but where where have you seen problems where you're like, Okay, we've got a gap here that we've got to fill.
Derek Miller: Yeah, it can be market dependent, really, at times, even in the sense of in very saturated markets, I would say price and staying on top of your comp set may be something that's you know, more difficult to keep track of. and something where you may need to fluctuate those expectations other than again top of funnel marketing volume. but I would also s I also see in other areas that it can be a team difficulty especially if let's say there's been recent turnover.
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: And it's like again, we could I could try to drive more lead volume, but if there's no one to manage the leads on site, then we're just really just spending money for not any additional help, right? Like it I can't solve the problem that there's only one person in on staff, right?
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: and so then let's maybe focus on our automations, And how can we implement, technologies that help with follow ups and, you know, things of
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: that nature instead. And I'd rather put maybe dollars or strategies around that for a team that's maybe like low staffed, for example.
Rory Anderson: That's a great example. And I think one one of the things that I've learned is that every management company approaches this a little bit differently, but when there is a disconnect from what's happening on the marketing side and the operations team and they don't talk to each other on a regular
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: basis, that becomes a a a pain point because
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: they're not so we we call this a marketing loop, right? The marketing marketing loop doesn't get closed when there's not information from the operations side that gets back to the sales side. Have you seen that?
Derek Miller: Yeah. Yeah, no, I a hundred percent agree with that because we're I think unfortunately in again in multifamily it's easy to fall into hey this is my job, my responsibility, and they're silos, So marketing is jobs just to bring in leads. You know, revenue management is just make sure the price is right. You know, the operations, make sure the people, you know, are doing supposed to but really they should be all talking, together.
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: And you know, ultimately at the end the day, each property has their own individual strategies, right? you may have financing goals you have to hit, and you may need like, let's say, rents high compared to offering larger and you can offer larger concessions, right? But
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: whereas other times you may just want the net rent to be lower for those financing goals. Well, all of that is strategies that the revenue manager is working on, asset management. working on operations are and if I'm not in sync with let's say hey we need to keep the prices high for our financing and I am skinny down marketing efforts or I'm not driving let's say a higher lead volume taking that into effect because I know that more people are will drop off
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: that's the a misalignment, right? But then s but similarly, if our goal is to be, let's say, lower priced in the market and hold a higher occupancy, then I don't need to spend as much there, right? because
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: price is the driving factor. So people that are doing their filter searches on ILSs and et cetera will convert because you're in the right price. It doesn't really matter as much
Rory Anderson: Right.
Derek Miller: of like if you're on top of the page or on page three if they're filtering it and you're, you know, and trying to get a thousand dollar apartment, for example.
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, really good point. So if you inherited a struggling property tomorrow, what are the metrics you would look at first before spending another dollar on advertising?
Derek Miller: Yeah, so being a data n you know nerd to for some sense,
Rory Anderson: Ha ha
Derek Miller: like I I'm instantly pulling like their traffic reports, and have lead sources included in that, And so I wanna see where are we spending our dollars what are they actually producing, as well as our own organic traffic, and see how much of the weight is it pulling? you know, so I look at that, I'd say typically first, and I even do, let's say, like a cost per move in type of analysis.
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: You know, I I know that like leasing is not a just a lateral straight line, right? In the sen or like marketing
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: in the sense of like, okay, you may go to apartments.com, but then you may Google search and then you'll do other, you know, stages. But it's at least a great baseline for me to understand are are we bleeding cash in unnecessary areas, and so you know, first I look at that. So let's say a struggling property is on a really high, let's say, ILS plan, but the move ins don't match, right, then maybe it's worth taking those lowering the plan, taking those dollars and reallocating them to an initiative that is working, right?
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: And so you know, I I I find like different ILSs perform differently also in different markets. So it's like, okay,
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Derek Miller: you know, so it may be like, okay, like if I'm pi overpaying in this one, but this one's actually producing, well what what happens if I put those dollars towards the one that is working? Right? Are we gonna drive
Rory Anderson: Mm.
Derek Miller: more lead volume there? You know, so that I would say that's like the first step that I would take is really just understanding where the leads are coming from, how how are they moving through each stage that we discussed earlier.
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: but then also looking at where if if they're if those leads are not performing in those stages, where are they falling off in that stage? And so if I see, I what I would typically say is organic channels are typically more maybe qualified traffic because they're ones that have done more research, right? They've come in, they've come through an own channel that has more robust information. But and I'd say your paid channels are the harder sell leads, and so if I see those the paid channels not producing or converting through the stage of let's say like your show to application stage, then what do we need to do with the on-site team to make them feel confident in selling? and you know again is it they're struggling to sell the price? is it the s curb appeal that's off? You know, and you could really kind of then hone in into how can we help them really be successful.
Rory Anderson: Yeah, such good points. So let me ask you this. If you what's one simple change that you you find that a leasing team could make this week even that would immediately improve conversions? Like what do you see that you're like, I wish I could just tell them this?
Derek Miller: Yeah. Ooh. That's a that's a that's a tough one because, you know, I I think it is can be property dependent.
Rory Anderson: Yes. For sure.
Derek Miller: you know, I I would say in an era where, we focused heavily on speed to lead, So that lead has come in, you may have AI automations responding to that
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: lead before you even get the chance to. what I would encourage on-sites teams to do is utilize your CRM and see what information has already been gathered, and then actually pick up the phone and call the prospect. I think a lot of technologies right now are heavily text. They're heavily
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: email. but we're not at the stage yet where AI's making outbound calls yet. And if it is, it's not doing a good job, right? And so
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: to me, I think bringing that human element to the sales process is vital. And know that, as a salesperson, it it is gold to have your personality come through. Right. That that's
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: still at the end of the day in in a world of automations, differentiate yourself by being a real human.
Rory Anderson: Yes. And I agree with you. Pick up the phone and call them because I wanna know like I w I have questions that I don't feel like AI maybe can answer and and I just wanna know well, what's the general feeling of the property? Like, does it you know, like what do what what are people's hobbies there and what do they like to do? Like am I gonna fit in here? Am I gonna is this gonna be a good
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: place for me? And that's not something I a I'm gonna tell you, you know?
Derek Miller: Yeah, well no, yeah, and in and what I even have seen, is the human connection, standpoint is you may like again, AI may have answered the questions, but to get that even, let's say, like, scheduled tour to actually show up
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: It's the salesperson that can make the difference there. And so you can
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: be like, Hey, you know, you if you call, I I'm super excited to see that, you've you've scheduled a tour. We're very looking forward to having you. I'm Derek. I'll be the one giving you the tour.
Rory Anderson: I'm a real person.
Derek Miller: Right, I'm a real person, you know. if if you have any, things that you want me to prepare ahead of time, to make sure that we, schedule your tour the best for you, right? Like all of that makes a big difference. And
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: just that, let's say, AI chat bot conversation and them saying, yeah, I'll come at one o'clock on Tuesday doesn't necessarily provide that same obligation of like, I actually maybe should show up.
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: I even take that even a step, further. again, if people aren't answering the phone, leave a a voicemail, because again, you can hear that personality
Rory Anderson: Yeah.
Derek Miller: come through. but then also take this opportunity, especially in very competitive markets, to try to even get them to come in earlier.
Rory Anderson: Yes.
Derek Miller: one of the things that I've noticed is again, For a company that does pride itself in the human experience, we don't want to be the cheapest on the market. So what t can happen at times, is someone schedules out four or five tours. If you're at the very tail end of that tour experience, they may have given like not even decide to show up because they've given up, right? Or like in the sense of like, we
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: already I found something I like that's not worth it to me anymore. But if you're given a call, setting an expectation, then I'm excited for you, I'm here, I'm building this personalized tour for you, and then hey, is it even a chance you want to come in earlier because I can lock in this pricing today. Any all of those things make a difference to actually to the success. The person already said that they are interested. So let's capitalize on it.
Rory Anderson: I could not agree more with you. And you know what? The person that takes that AI lead first
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: and actually makes that human connection first. I do I really do think you have a much stronger conversion rate i in the end. I gotta believe that that I mean at least for me personally, you're gonna
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: win my business.
Derek Miller: Well and what what's great, again, I I think what typically and this probably is a whole nother topic that we'll do in another, you know, episode, right? So not to go too far down the wormhole here, but I I I do think that again in an era where you have automations, going out and people like are buying software left and right. There is really a true evaluation of what that implementation looks like and where does the human element fall into play with that? Because you actually have to re think about the human experience, right? And so again, thinking about
Rory Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Derek Miller: your full funnel, where are your technologies and human interactions aligning at each of those stages to create the perfect you know, like s stage and experience for that prospect.
Rory Anderson: Yeah, so true. Well, Derek, if there's one takeaway from today for me, it's this. Before you go spend more money generating leads, figure out what's happening to the leads that you already have. Traffics, appointments, tours, you know, applications, approvals, and the leases, they all tell a story. And when you understand where the prospects are falling out of that funnel, you can stop guessing and then you can start fixing the problem. So
Derek Miller: Yeah.
Rory Anderson: I really appreciate you helping us break it down. We'll keep building on this in part two, so stay tuned.
Derek Miller: Yes.
Rory Anderson: Next we're gonna talk about traffic quality versus quantity. But until next time, keep leading great teams, keep leveling yourself up and go be a light and a blessing to someone else.
