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00:00:26.763But it's a little perplexing to understand why 200 people were quarantined if they did not think that this had anything to do with the lab that she Hey there, fellow nerds. Welcome back to another episode of The Present Illness, a podcast where two physicians try to make sense of a world that's~ a little febrile. And this week we're gonna talk about the plague.
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00:00:30.367So just so super fitting. ~ and and definitely under a diagnose.
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00:00:35.103I'm Arghavan Salles, a surgeon scientist in your friendly neighborhood doom and residence.
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00:00:47.970I'm Alyssa Bergar, an anesthesiologist and bioethicist who tracks news and health a lot like their EKGs, full of spikes and surprises. You're on the present illness where we dig into public health politics, culture, and ethics with a scalpel in one hand and a meme in the other.
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00:00:53.093As a note to our listeners today, we are talking about the plague and executions.
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00:00:56.533So if these topics are too much for you today, we'll see you next week.
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00:01:03.012Yeah, I mean, all topics are too much, really, at this point. But anyway, that's what we're going to talk about today.
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00:01:06.894~ big thank you to everyone who's listening wherever you have found us.
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00:01:20.161we want to send some extra love out to our subscribers and followers on the various platforms. And we want to extend a special warm welcome to anyone who is stumbling in from Trump asking Iran to attack LA and San Diego.
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00:01:23.305So I just Alyssa just shaking her head.
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00:01:44.469I ~ the the I actually had not heard what Trump said, but my intro into this topic was that I came across The Bridge Fairy who like decorates bridges with messages and it said, Dear Iran, he's in Florida.
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00:01:45.519Love California.
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00:01:49.090Yeah, let me play let me play the audio.
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00:01:54.766It's I have a short clip in case folks haven't heard it, although he's now said it three times this week.
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00:02:09.860So this this audio that I'm about to play for you is from the first time, which was on Monday at a rally in Nebraska,~ interestingly. And I will I will just ask for folks to listen to the crowd as well, because there's what he says and then there's the reaction of the crowd.
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00:02:15.013All right. And again, remember, with a war, it's just artificial.
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00:02:22.247It's a little bit high. It's a small price to pay for keeping the world safe, keeping our country safe. They can take out a city.
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00:02:25.600Let take let it let take out Los Angeles.
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00:02:31.213Let take out San Diego. That's this is a very small price to pay.
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00:02:33.265And it's gonna be over in the very soon.
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00:02:35.146It's essentially almost over with.
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00:02:40.078And they might keep going a little long, you know. They always say they have a big threshold for pain.
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00:02:53.533They need it, let me tell you, they need it. But it's gonna end very soon and it'll end one way or the other and your gas and your gasoline and all of the th So I mean, listen, I'm dumber right now for listening to that.
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00:03:08.925The thing is, you know, part of the reason I thought it was worth playing is just as every other fucking crazy thing he says, people, but he didn't say that, he didn't do that, you're taking it the wrong way.
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00:03:26.611He says, let them take out LA, let them take out San Diego. He doesn't say it would be bad if they did that, or that they could have, or that they had threatened to, right? He doesn't say, because I think what people people are like, you know, Trump whisperers now, like.
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00:03:28.034well, he's talking about gas prices.
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00:03:34.639So he's saying the gas prices, it's worth it to pay high gas prices so that they don't take out LA and San Diego.
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00:03:40.473But that is not what he said. And he is the president of one of the most powerful countries in the world.
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00:03:54.943And he can't manage to like communicate clear thoughts such that you, random internet user 03579, feel that you have to explain to other people what he really meant. We should not be in a position where people are having to.
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00:04:02.257interpret the words of a demented man who holds the keys to our nuclear weapons.
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00:04:14.354Well, and we are recording this today on ~ October eighth, and just a few hours ago Trump said he's not going to resume military strikes on Iran until after the midterm.
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00:04:20.192So it's also being used as yet another way to try to manipulate voters into not being quite so pissed at him.
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00:04:32.177I I think it's very clearly an attempt to say that or to suggest that if not for him and his action, Iran would have taken out LA and San Diego.
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00:04:37.730Never mind the fact that Iran has no capacity to attack LA or San Diego.
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00:04:39.661Let's just be very clear about that.
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00:04:44.324They have no missile that could reach the West Coast of the United States.
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00:04:51.247I don't even think they have a missile that could reach the east coast of the United States. and Los Angeles is.
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00:04:55.009probably the largest population of Iranian people outside of Iran.
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00:05:03.434Not that our not that the Iranian government cares about its people, but it would be a strange choice, let me just say that, for them to go after~ LA.
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00:05:13.879And I mean, as as other f others have said, why would anyone think Iran's taking orders from anyway, from from the president of the United States who they're at war with?
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00:05:20.634Like none of it makes sense, but I do want to be clear that he has now said this three different times because that was Monday night.
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00:05:26.834Then he said it again yesterday, and then I believe he said it again today, which is Thursday. The same thing.
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00:05:39.721Not they could have, they would have, they could they threaten to, but let them take out these cities and see how bad it is. He's taunting Iran to try to attack US citizens.
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00:05:46.403US citizens and San Diego, as many have pointed out, there are a lot of military folks in San Diego.
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00:05:48.529That's a I mean, that's a military town.
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00:05:57.043Yes. So it's not just, come after our citizens, but also go ahead, come after our our military.
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00:06:01.920And we're just supposed to be like, yeah, ha ha ha. Like it's a it's not a joke.
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00:06:02.920Maybe It's not funny.
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00:06:05.985You can't say I mean, you know, like what is what is happening?
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00:06:15.233Maybe this will inspire people in the military, like when when Trump tries to stay in office, like maybe that'll inspire them to not let him.
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00:06:30.404goodness. Yeah. I mean we know obviously they've replaced so many of the top leadership in the military to be just loyalists and not I mean, they've removed Yeah.
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00:06:41.646or people either they've removed the people with this with a lot of the people with integrity, or those people have chosen to leave because they could not stay working in this kind of environment.
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00:06:45.473Anyway, so yeah, that that was that's one of things that's been happening this week.
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00:06:52.892you know, yeah, he claimed he claimed that he ended the war in Iran eight months before it started. Did you see that?
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00:07:03.791no, I didn't. ~ but you know, he also eradicated their ability to have a nuclear weapon before he started the war to make sure that they didn't have a nuclear weapon, according to him.
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00:07:06.759This is what I'm saying. This is why I I just can't listen to him talk anymore.
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00:07:12.535I mean, one, it's like nails on a chalkboard, but also because I just get dumber every time I hear him speak.
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00:07:13.976He's he's he's dumb.
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00:07:23.341Yeah, and as I pointed out in that clip, like the crowd behind him is cheering when he says, let them take out LA, let them take out San Diego.
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00:07:31.346Like he's gonna say I mean whatever he's gonna say, but what are we doing cheering on attacks on US cities?
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00:07:39.473Meanwhile, by the way, like we're gonna talk about other things, but ~ you know, there's been so much focus on Hassan Piker.
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00:07:42.535We have not done a deep dive for this pod on Hassan Piker.
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00:07:53.115Has Hassan Hassan Piker is a Leftist ~ streamer. Okay. And he has a huge following and he's very popular in some circles.
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00:07:55.216He's campaigned with a number of different people.
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00:08:11.329In the last few weeks, if folks have been seeing the news, a lot of conservatives have been attacking Hassan Piker as a way to attack Democratic candidates in various places, including like Abdul al-Sayed in ~ in the Midwest.
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00:08:14.112~ and anyway, so they're they're going after.
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00:08:20.404Hassan and then suggesting that these political candidates are all the same as Hassan. Hassan is again a streamer.
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00:08:27.100Okay? He's an influencer. And at some He streams by the way like it's like eight hours a day.
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00:08:28.778Yeah, yeah, yeah, many hours a day.
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00:08:44.187So he he at some point, I don't I'm not saying verbatim, but he had said it basically like the US had done things that brought about 9-11,~ which I don't I don't see as a radical position.
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00:08:55.875But anyway, he had said that. So that's one of the talking points that that held against him and other Democratic candidates who may be associated with is that this idea that like it's the US's fault.
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00:08:58.192to some degree that nine eleven happened.
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00:09:00.182Apparently that's like a really horrific thing to say.
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00:09:05.756In the meantime, we've got the US president calling, He's he has he he has said no I yeah.
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00:09:09.490but he's he's the US president is calling for millions of Americans to be killed.
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00:09:10.921Yeah. I and and by the way, well Anyway, sorry, what do you think?
00:09:10.921 -->
00:09:12.481What do you think about what Hassan said?
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00:09:19.313Hassan Pegger, I mean, some of the things and the ways that he says it, like they're very bombastic. Like you said, he's an in he's an influencer.
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00:09:26.419~ you know, also really smart, really smart person, but also like has a lot of things to say.
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00:09:32.595So certainly the rhetoric, but they they it seems like they just keep pulling out the same like three or four things he said.
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00:09:36.687And I'm like, he's he's literally scream streaming eight hours a day, and Yes.
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00:09:37.749that's all you have that's all you have.
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00:09:39.629That's apparently all they have.
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00:09:45.645~ and the other thing And that's and that's all they have against these Democratic candidates too, is Hassan Piker. Somehow.
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00:09:51.014So and then the other thing I just want to say quickly, obviously I corrected joke at the beginning about the the bridge ferry.
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00:09:54.087I don't want anyone in Florida to get bombed either.
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00:09:57.240Like I would not rejoice if people in Florida were harmed.
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00:10:01.044~ again, not that that's something Iran actually has the ability to do.
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00:10:08.034But no, we should not cheer on the end of, you know, ver just people because of regionally where they live.
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00:10:12.961Yes, I I agree. I didn't I didn't think you meant that, but I appreciate the clarification.
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00:10:19.307All right. Shall we get into the first of our two main topics for the day, which is the plague?
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00:10:27.270I'm gonna be honest with you, Arghavan. I was not prepared for the word plague to show up in my newsfeed as much as it has in the last week.
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00:10:36.177Yeah, it's been wild. I saw it first reported by like a random person on Twitter and no link to anything.
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00:10:38.379So I was like, okay, I'm just gonna file that away.
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00:10:49.833Let's see what happens. and then it took another, I want to say one to two full days before I saw like a legitimate news source pick up on the story. And that's when I started sharing it with folks over on Instagram.
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00:10:56.176But if folks haven't been following the story, the basic gist is that there is a lab.
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00:11:03.682In Siberia called the Irkutsk Anti-Plague Research Institute of Siberia and the Far East. Very long title.
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00:11:09.523A woman who worked in that lab died last week on October 2nd.
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00:11:12.504She had some kind of pneumonia.
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00:11:38.202She became sick on or around September 25th, went to the hospital September 29th, died October 2nd. When news of all of this came to us, There were reports that she had dropped maybe a test tube at this institute, which I'll remind you again, Anti-Plague Institute is in the name, right? So that she had dropped a test tube.
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00:11:44.404And so there were rumors that and by the way, I'll just say that even that part is not verified.
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00:11:46.965There were just reports that she had dropped a test tube.
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00:11:49.265We don't know whether she did or didn't drop a test tube.
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00:11:57.168But there were reports that she had dropped a test tube and then got sick, and that 200 people were being quarantined.
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00:12:10.094So you can see why people were like,~ she must have caught the plague, and they're quarantining these other people to try to limit the spread, which would, which would make sense.
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00:12:15.477But then, then we hear from Russia that she did not have the plague.
00:12:15.477 -->
00:12:20.501There was no drop test tube that anyone is willing to admit to.
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00:12:27.217~ she supposedly was tested for many, many pathogens. They couldn't find one.
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00:12:40.640So supposedly she died of a pneumonia of unclear etiology just days after a 28-year-old, just days after having contracted it.
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00:12:56.940And I'm I'm framing it to you this way because it these are the points of confusion for me. Like if I today, as a 46-year-old, if I got pneumonia, no one would be quarantined around me, right? If I went to the hospital unless the unless I somehow f.
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00:12:59.474Had some sort of very bizarre antigen that they found.
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00:13:07.100Like, I would just go to we we treat patients with pneumonia in the hospital all the time. I would just get admitted to the hospital, get whatever treatment I make it, I don't make it, whatever.
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00:13:42.157But it's a little perplexing to understand why 200 people were quarantined if they did not think that this had anything to do with the lab that she which is what they're saying now, that this had nothing to do with the lab that she just got sick and Well, I mean, I also think that now I don't obviously I don't have any information that you don't have, but like, you know, if you have somebody who like works in a place that has these very dangerous pathogens, I could understand being like, We're not sure what this is. We're gonna out of an abundance of caution Sure. Sure.
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00:13:50.727tr assume that it's come from this lab and try to be really safe and then be and then be like, It turns out everything's fine.
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00:13:52.078I mean, I could I could understand that.
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00:13:52.580Yeah, that's possible.
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00:14:01.841You're right. You're right. Although I yeah, I guess she so she was vaccinated ~ for this, which isn't it's not like a perfect vaccine for the yeah, vaccinated against the plague.
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00:14:04.157Mm-hmm.
00:14:02.543 -->
00:14:04.125yersinia pestis. Mm-hmm.
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00:14:31.514and from what I understand of, you know, I've never worked in a lab that deals with those kinds of pathogens, but from what I understand, people are wearing N ninety fives or Pappers typically and the test tubes or other con ~ containers in which they're carrying these kind of pathogens usually have a backup system such that even if you drop it, it's still contained within a second container.
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00:14:36.230Yeah. But you can still You know, it's have I mean, there was a there was I'm trying to remember what year it came out.
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00:14:46.426A handful of years ago there's 'cause you there's a bunch of like essentially secret semi secret laboratories that that still you know, that do like smallpox ~ research Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:14:46.553 -->
00:14:58.096and things like that where, you know, if that if those pathogens got out, it could be very dangerous. and, you know, there's there's errors that I you know.
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00:15:00.160sure, sure. Anything is possible.
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00:15:03.292I'm not saying like that I know that nothing happened.
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00:15:05.482I'm just saying there are so many precautions.
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00:15:06.216Mm-hmm.
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00:15:22.309And typically, if there is, let's say she had dropped a test tube and there was some spillage, then typically as a lab worker, you would report that, right, to whatever the appropriate organization is or the appropriate person within your organization.
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00:15:26.371And then importantly, yersinia pestis is treatable with antibiotics.
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00:15:28.804So then she would have do you see what I'm saying?
00:15:28.804 -->
00:15:31.445Like there's just a a number of things that don't quite add up.
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00:15:33.701Like if they thought Mm-hmm.
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00:15:35.506it was that, then why wasn't she getting treated earlier?
00:15:35.506 -->
00:15:37.667Or why didn't she tell someone?
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00:15:38.783Or is it that she didn't tell?
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00:15:41.849I mean, we don't know. There's just so much we don't know, which is one of the challenges.
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00:15:41.764Mm, mm.
00:15:42.609 -->
00:15:51.601and this is something that like the WHO as well as commented on that it's really hard to get accurate information because there isn't a lot of transparency coming.
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00:15:52.336Mm.
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00:15:54.567From that institute or from the Russian government.
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00:15:56.058So the things I'm sharing Mm-hmm.
00:15:55.576 -->
00:16:03.219are, you know, mostly things that either have come from the government or have been verified by other people, but also as you heard me say, like some people are saying this.
00:16:03.219 -->
00:16:06.360We don't know. We don't know if there was a test tube that fell.
00:16:06.360 -->
00:16:11.860There, if we believe what we're being told, then she did not have yersinia pestis.
00:16:11.860 -->
00:16:15.152And no one else who was quarantined did either.
00:16:15.152 -->
00:16:26.418There have been some reports that there was a second person who died, but there have been They've been in like the Daily Mail and like the Russian parallel to that.
00:16:26.418 -->
00:16:33.136So not exactly credible, reputable sources that has not been Sure.
00:16:32.860 -->
00:16:40.081no one has been able to verify, including the WHAO, nobody has been able to verify whether there was a second person who had died or Mm.
00:16:39.984 -->
00:17:10.961from what if they had. ~ that exists to ~ restrict countries from developing biological weapons because another idea that people have had as well was this lab developing other biological weapons. Maybe it's not anything to do with yersinia pestis at all, but some other pathogen that they don't want us Mm.
00:17:10.371 -->
00:17:11.594to know that they've developed.
00:17:11.594 -->
00:17:18.596I mean, you know, and this is what happens when you don't have transparency, people think lots of thoughts because we're like, what else could be going on here?
00:17:18.596 -->
00:17:21.327In the end, you have a 28 year old who died within a matter of days.
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00:17:38.980Well, and the other thing that this makes me think of, right, is the, you know, all of the claims in the in the pandemic that maybe it was a lab leak. And the reality is that that got dismissed really quickly in part because the Chinese government really didn't give us a lot of And Yes.
00:17:38.382 -->
00:17:47.097when there because the WHO wasn't getting enough support, it meant that also when the investigation was done, the Chinese government got to really run that.
00:17:47.097 -->
00:17:59.570And so even when their big report came out, it was very unsatisfying in terms of saying like it didn't look like it was taken seriously, in which case it's hard to say that that's not that that there was not some rule.
00:18:00.400 -->
00:18:16.315Yeah, I agree. It's and I think a lot of people who follow public health closely and epidemiologists and so on and and people working at the WHO, a lot of people are like, this reminds us in some ways of what happened at the beginning of COVID because again, we had another government that was not transparent and wasn't Mm-hmm.
00:18:16.028 -->
00:18:22.932sharing with us. And and of course they folks would like more transparency now because we would like to know what's happening.
00:18:22.932 -->
00:18:30.160~ but I the reason I mentioned the biological weapons convention is that we know that Russia has violated it before,~ when they Mm-hmm.
00:18:29.695 -->
00:18:32.794were using anthrax back in the 1970s.
00:18:32.794 -->
00:18:42.816And they have not since the since the USSR was dissolved, they they my to my understanding, they have not agreed to not develop biological weapons.
00:18:42.816 -->
00:18:48.757So yeah, we really don't know what is or is not happening in that lab.
00:18:48.757 -->
00:18:54.138We don't know what this woman was working on, whether there was a leak from that lab or not.
00:18:54.138 -->
00:19:00.069Like we we really don't. Hopefully at some point we will, but this has raised a lot of concern.
00:19:00.259 -->
00:19:12.646Obviously, because people see headlines of like a young woman dies very quickly, was working in the anti plague research institute,~ where they work with Yersinia pestis, which is the the bacteria that causes the plague.
00:19:12.646 -->
00:19:14.203And Mm-hmm.
00:19:13.587 -->
00:19:20.191so people are wondering about what does that mean for the rest of us, even if it were that, right? Which again, we don't know that's what she had.
00:19:20.191 -->
00:19:27.174But so I just wanted to like briefly summarize Yersinia pestis causes kind of three main categories of illness.
00:19:27.174 -->
00:19:28.205One is the bubonic.
00:19:28.327 -->
00:19:34.651Plague that we all learned about, you know, like in middle school or whatever that happened in the 14th very deadly.
00:19:34.109 -->
00:19:35.109Black death.
00:19:35.851 -->
00:19:45.954The Black Death causes enlarged lymph nodes, usually transmitted by bites from fleas,~ wiped out huge portions of the population at that time.
00:19:45.954 -->
00:19:49.336That's one iteration. There's the pneumonic plague.
00:19:49.336 -->
00:19:59.201So same bacteria causes pneumonia, which is what this woman had. ~ although they say again, Okay, but like also know why not that sounds like a disease, like for mathematicians.
00:20:03.369 -->
00:20:05.086Why? It's not a parabolic plague.
00:20:05.856 -->
00:20:13.015Oa Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Anyway, it's not it's not Sorry, ca I'm sorry, carry on.
00:20:13.067 -->
00:20:17.941a quadratic plague. Anyway, so trying to remember all the math I used to know.
00:20:17.941 -->
00:20:30.128~ but anyway, so so there's a pneumonic plague, which presents primarily with pneumonia, and that one is spread in a respiratory fashion, although it is not very contagious.
00:20:30.128 -->
00:20:33.301So the R0, you know, the number of people who can be Mm-hmm.
00:20:32.790 -->
00:20:39.476infected by one person is somewhere in the ones, you know, not even two or more, typic typically.
00:20:39.853 -->
00:20:40.853Mm-hmm.
00:20:39.964 -->
00:20:45.388~ so it's not very contagious, although it is lethal if left untreated.
00:20:45.388 -->
00:20:46.950But again, we have treatments now.
00:20:46.950 -->
00:20:57.737~ as someone I saw said, like, we've been dealing with Yersinia pestis for hundreds of years, like it's the opposite end of the spectrum from something like COVID, where we're like, we've never seen this virus before.
00:20:57.737 -->
00:21:04.270Here we have an organism that tons of people have studied, you know, lots of options for antibiotic treatments.
00:21:04.270 -->
00:21:05.741Anyway, so that's the mnemonic plague.
00:21:05.741 -->
00:21:08.503And then the last version is the septicemic plague.
00:21:08.832 -->
00:21:28.490Which is basically the infection getting into your bloodstream, which can happen in concert with either of the other two or on its own,~ and causes, as you might have already understood, sepsis, which is an infection that's, you know, multi-organ systems and again, if left untreated, has a very very high rate of death.
00:21:28.490 -->
00:21:32.183So that's what we know about yersinia pestis.
00:21:32.183 -->
00:21:38.826We have multiple antibiotics that exist that are easily found here in the US to treat it if someone were to have it.
00:21:38.826 -->
00:21:44.361And by the way, people do get infected with this kind of all the time these days.
00:21:44.361 -->
00:21:55.388It's just that again, because it's not that contagious and because we have treatments, it doesn't end up being this widespread ~ epidemic the way that it was back in the 14th century.
00:21:55.388 -->
00:22:16.742So I think, you know, based on everything that I've read and I'll put some links~ in the in the show notes so people can read if they want to learn more about I don't know if this one individual had yersinia pestis or not, but it does seem like it's relatively contained, whatever it was that she had. Again, the Russian government saying she did not have that, that they tested, and that's not what caused her death.
00:22:16.742 -->
00:22:21.244Most of the people who were initially quarantined, those 200, most of them have been released.
00:22:21.244 -->
00:22:26.147A couple of them were found to have coronavirus, and a couple of them were found to have rhinovirus.
00:22:26.147 -->
00:22:37.126You know, basically not anything too interesting in terms of, you know, pathogens. ~ And we will see what else we learn.
00:22:37.126 -->
00:22:42.318I mean, even this episode hopefully will come out tomorrow, but maybe there'll be something new that we learn between now and then.
00:22:42.318 -->
00:22:45.830It's one of these kind of rapidly changing circumstances.
00:22:45.830 -->
00:22:57.278But as of now, and I and you know, really a lot of public health experts agree there's not a reason for us to be overwhelmingly concerned here in the US, or certainly no reason to panic.
00:22:57.278 -->
00:23:00.799~ it just would be nice to have more information about exactly.
00:23:01.364 -->
00:23:05.076what happened ~ in that lab and what happened to this woman.
00:23:05.076 -->
00:23:06.844Maybe maybe we will get that. I don't know.
00:23:08.321 -->
00:23:13.133Maybe we won't. Maybe it'll continue to be this huge mystery 'cause they don't tell us.
00:23:13.066 -->
00:23:26.602Yeah. and one last thing I wanted to say is that there is a woman~ named Amy Jacobson who has written a book about a scenario in which a biological weapon basically ~ threatens the world is my understanding.
00:23:26.602 -->
00:23:28.151~ It's a novel, it sounds like.
00:23:28.403 -->
00:23:38.406well~ I don't it yeah, it I'm mentioning this because if you start to read about this, you may come across this person.
00:23:38.406 -->
00:23:39.847I don't know that much about this person.
00:23:40.317 -->
00:23:54.282What I do know is that a lot of the public health people and the virologists and the people who study pandemics, those people who I trust are like, please don't listen to this woman about the about the about what's happening in Russia because she is not informed on this particular topic.
00:23:54.282 -->
00:23:56.452There there may be other topics that she's very informed on.
00:23:56.452 -->
00:24:03.875~ and there's you know, I'll put a link to an essay where they really go, they do a deep dive into her book and why it doesn't make any sense.
00:24:03.875 -->
00:24:10.193But Anyway, so j just just a little note that like if that's who you're getting your information from, I just diversify.
00:24:10.193 -->
00:24:22.371Diversify your news sources. Look for other folks as well, because what I'm hearing from people I trust is that she's not super reliable on this specific topic. Anyway, that's that's enough of the plague for now.
00:24:25.198 -->
00:24:27.701Well, thank you. Thank you. That was very informative.
00:24:27.701 -->
00:24:36.973And I don't want to have to think about the plague as as much, but I do feel like you digested it for me in a way that's super helpful.
00:24:37.779 -->
00:24:38.779Well, I'm so glad.
00:24:41.002 -->
00:24:44.991but now it's on to a lighter topic, which is ~ state sanctioned killings.
00:24:44.991 -->
00:25:04.087~~ brutal, brutal. So As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I'm an anesthesiologist. And so I have always had a strong interest in well, I'm I'm opposed to state sanctioned killings in general.
00:25:04.087 -->
00:25:09.217I don't think that we should. I don't think that we should that the state should execute people.
00:25:09.217 -->
00:25:40.730That's that's my opinion. and When states started moving towards lethal injection as things like firing squads and things like ~ the electric chair began to lose public support, I think there was this idea that ~ Lethal injection would be a quote humane way to kill someone, which again, those things don't really go together.
00:25:40.730 -->
00:25:41.971~ Mm-hmm.
00:25:42.090 -->
00:26:01.901but the reason that we're talking about this is because last week was the on September 30th, the state of Tennessee attempted to execute Christa Pike with a single drug concoction made solely of pentobarbital, which is a barbituate, a really strong barbiturate medicine.
00:26:01.901 -->
00:26:10.489~ She would have been the first woman to reach execution in 200 years in Tennessee.
00:26:10.489 -->
00:26:24.678She also, if I mean, she did not die, which is really the key here, is there was an attempted execution and she survived and she is now awake~ after this attempt to execute her.
00:26:24.678 -->
00:26:31.040Sh ~ if if she had died, she would have been only the 19th woman to be executed in the United States.
00:26:31.040 -->
00:26:45.424~ One of the things that's so troubling about lethal injection for me is that there's a lot of things about it that sound a lot like doing a general anesthetic, but just really unsafely.
00:26:45.740 -->
00:26:46.740Mm.
00:26:46.695 -->
00:26:55.182and you know, if you're gonna make crass jokes, like if you're a really bad anesthesiologist, you could kill someone very easily.
00:26:55.182 -->
00:26:59.654you know, we obviously take my job very seriously.
00:26:59.654 -->
00:27:01.175I want my patients to be safe.
00:27:01.657 -->
00:27:18.753And it's really important that when people get care from an anesthesiologist or any sort of an anesthesia provider, that there's not this confusion of what our role is, and that our role is supposed to be to ~ you know, to serve patients, keep them safe,~ so they can get the care that they need.
00:27:18.753 -->
00:27:26.821but when you're doing things like use anesthesia medications to kill somebody.
00:27:27.155 -->
00:27:31.528then you usually need to have some medical professionals involved in that process.
00:27:31.528 -->
00:27:33.809So you need to be able to place an IV.
00:27:33.809 -->
00:27:41.021You presumably need to do some sort of monitoring to determine whether or not the person has died. ~ Mm-hmm.
00:27:40.834 -->
00:27:53.201And there have been many failed executions~ in the recent past in which, including this one of Christa Pike, where they really struggle to get IV access.
00:27:53.493 -->
00:28:14.340Some executions are canceled simply because they they are not able to get access to a blood vessel. I even read~ in the past about cases where, for example, a central line was placed or attempted to do a central line,~ which a central line is a complex medical procedure that is generally done by people who know what they're doing.
00:28:14.340 -->
00:28:23.967so there's And it's a big it it's a it's a much bigger ~ catheter than we use Mm-hmm.
00:28:23.521 -->
00:28:29.076in like what would be a typically like a peripheral IV that you might get when you go to the hospital to have something done.
00:28:29.076 -->
00:28:38.401It goes the reason it's called a central line is that it goes into the large central veins right before those veins get to the heart.
00:28:38.401 -->
00:28:39.626And Yeah.
00:28:39.010 -->
00:28:43.156we use them, you know, in the ICU, we use them in the operating room when we have Mm.
00:28:43.084 -->
00:28:51.292patients who need either volume of medications or certain kinds of medications that can only be delivered safely in that location.
00:28:51.292 -->
00:28:57.132But yeah, the Yeah. And I, you know, for example, I put in a lot of central lines for for my work.
00:28:57.132 -->
00:29:00.313~ it allows me to give medications also directly to the heart.
00:29:00.313 -->
00:29:11.397~ but yeah, these are things that, you know, for me, this is this is a this is a procedure that I do because I care about a person and because I want them to be safe and actually because I want them to survive their surgery.
00:29:11.397 -->
00:29:21.602And so ~ it is very dystopian to see these exact same things that I do in my regular work used as a vehicle to kill a human being.
00:29:23.541 -->
00:29:29.092And so what what happened in if I might ask so yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, what happened in this specific case?
00:29:29.092 -->
00:29:30.092Okay.
00:29:30.213 -->
00:29:43.280yeah. So Christa Pike, ~ when they went to do her execution and there were a lot of ~ legal attempts to try to prevent her execution from moving forward, they had a very difficult time getting a peripheral IV.
00:29:43.280 -->
00:29:48.683it sounds like they must eventually have gotten one, apparently from ~ court witnesses.
00:29:48.683 -->
00:29:51.726They tried for over for about an hour.
00:29:52.834 -->
00:29:59.038They used at least seven needles and caused injuries to her arms in doing so.
00:29:59.038 -->
00:30:07.343she received two doses of~ pentabarbital that were meant to be lethal.
00:30:07.343 -->
00:30:09.743So these are very high doses of pentabarbital.
00:30:09.743 -->
00:30:34.432And usually with high doses of pentabarbital, you do depress somebody's breathing, similar to fentanyl. but Despite these two doses, Christa Pike continued to breathe and could be heard snoring. you know, and at a certain point she hadn't died, but also wasn't breathing sufficiently.
00:30:34.432 -->
00:30:45.809And so she was then the decision was made to rush her to a local Nashville hospital where she regained, you know, she received intensive care and re regained consciousness.
00:30:45.809 -->
00:30:53.478~ But after I mean she but not immediately, right? Because I think she was in the ICU for Yeah.
00:30:52.182 -->
00:30:56.065Several days. Yeah. We weren't sure.
00:30:53.478 -->
00:31:00.126So there was some time where I have not followed I yeah, I haven't followed this as closely as you have, but I it was my impression Yeah.
00:30:59.932 -->
00:31:04.635that people weren't sure, you know, whether she still had brain function and would would wake up or not.
00:31:04.555 -->
00:31:05.555Yeah.
00:31:05.086 -->
00:31:07.948So her we're recording on on October eighth.
00:31:07.948 -->
00:31:13.994her execution attempt was on September thirtieth, and I believe she re regained consciousness.
00:31:13.994 -->
00:31:15.556It was either yesterday or this morning.
00:31:15.556 -->
00:31:22.864I'd have to double check. but you know, so she's been in the ICU, presumably receiving critical care.
00:31:22.864 -->
00:31:29.679~ To to help her process all of this medication.
00:31:29.679 -->
00:31:31.067And now now Mm.
00:31:30.471 -->
00:31:34.428we have to find out whether or not the state of Tennessee is going to try to attempt again.
00:31:35.084 -->
00:31:48.635Mm-hmm. ~ do we think or do th do they think that basically some of the medication was able to be administered, but then the IVs blue and that s you know, I don't know that we I don't know.
00:31:47.281 -->
00:31:48.281do we know?
00:31:48.635 -->
00:31:52.765I have not read that detail. ~ that's It might not be available, I don't know.
00:31:52.788 -->
00:31:54.859sure. And that would be s certainly possible.
00:31:54.859 -->
00:32:02.473You know, IVs can become damaged or dislodged, and you can end up actually depositing the medication into the subcutaneous tissue.
00:32:02.473 -->
00:32:15.621This was a big problem when many states were using the three drug approach, which was a combination of a medication like pentobarbital, so a barbituate.
00:32:15.894 -->
00:32:24.973They would use a cardiotoxic medication like potassium and a neuroblocker, neuromuscular blocker like vecuronium or rock uronium.
00:32:24.246 -->
00:32:25.246Mm, mm.
00:32:25.694 -->
00:32:31.931And, you know, for me, ~ potassium, I like you, we don't want it in the operating room.
00:32:31.931 -->
00:33:01.672It's so dangerous because ~ an overdose of potassium can absolutely just cause someone's heart to stop. It's one of the things, for example, you know, when we're reperfusing ~ transplants, we have to worry about the potassium load from the organ causing~ cardiac arrhythmias. And ~ anyway, so that those three drugs together were determined to be cruel and unusual punishment. And in part because if potassium ~ is n it's it burns.
00:33:01.672 -->
00:33:04.839So when you put it in a peripheral IV, Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
00:33:03.594 -->
00:33:10.828it burns and it's very painful. And so you would have people where They weren't sufficiently sedated.
00:33:10.828 -->
00:33:15.241They weren't paralyzed because of that medication.
00:33:15.241 -->
00:33:20.226Because of the they either hadn't received the paralytic medication.
00:33:20.226 -->
00:33:25.809And so then they would be clearly in pain and clearly uncomfortable.
00:33:24.288 -->
00:33:25.288Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:33:26.611 -->
00:33:31.773And worse, you know, there were probably many patients.
00:33:31.773 -->
00:33:36.718Many people who were being executed who were not sufficiently sedated.
00:33:37.730 -->
00:33:39.401were given a paralytic medication.
00:33:39.401 -->
00:33:43.991And so they may have been aware and yet not able to move.
00:33:43.991 -->
00:33:51.124And then to receive something like potassium and then experience extreme pain Mm, mm-hmm.
00:33:50.334 -->
00:34:06.066and not be able to express themselves. That's a really terrible thing to do to a human being~ under any circumstances. So this is how Tennessee, after a bunch of legal challenges against their Three drug protocol ended up coming up with it.
00:34:06.066 -->
00:34:08.711Well, now we're just going to use one drug, we're just Mm-hmm.
00:34:08.208 -->
00:34:11.139going to use the barbiturate, and we're just going to use such high doses of it.
00:34:11.139 -->
00:34:14.603And there's a lot of issues with procuring these medications.
00:34:14.603 -->
00:34:22.418~ for example, because there were a lot of pharmaceutical manufacturers who stopped being willing to sell them to prisons.
00:34:22.418 -->
00:34:24.148And so there's also this whole like black market that a bunch of prisons engage Mm-hmm.
00:34:26.001 -->
00:34:28.074in in order to obtain these medications.
00:34:28.074 -->
00:34:45.753and you know, from an ethics standpoint for for Clinicians, there are clearly, you know, nurses and doctors and other people who must be working for the prisons to provide execution as a service.
00:34:45.753 -->
00:35:20.914And one of the things about this happening in Tennessee that is especially galling is that in an effort to make it easier for physicians and nurses in Tennessee to deny Needed legal medical care to patients, they've really amped up their ability for clinicians to do something called conscientious objection, where they can claim, well, I have a belief that you know interferes with my willingness to provide a service, such as abortion, for example, or gender-affirming care, or I don't want Yeah.
00:35:20.213 -->
00:35:21.443to take care of certain people.
00:35:21.443 -->
00:35:23.675And they can use almost Okay.
00:35:23.074 -->
00:35:30.126anything to satisfy that state law, which really makes it easier for.
00:35:30.510 -->
00:35:46.739clinici who are bigoted to take action or to pro to refuse to provide care to patients in need. And so to have the state that has really been like, no, we need to protect physicians' ethical right to refuse Mm.
00:35:46.516 -->
00:35:57.581to take care of people, to also be like, yeah, but we're also going to not stop clinicians from killing people if it's in service of the state.
00:35:56.235 -->
00:35:59.561Well we're gonna hire not just that, Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:57.702 -->
00:36:01.574we're gonna hire people to kill And protect their identities, by the way.
00:35:59.849 -->
00:36:03.168people. Ca hire clinicians to Yes, And yes.
00:36:02.646 -->
00:36:04.277protect their identities. So they're secret.
00:36:04.277 -->
00:36:07.918So you we don't know who these people are.
00:36:07.918 -->
00:36:12.184~ you don't know if these are are these people who are in bad standing.
00:36:12.184 -->
00:36:18.248Is this like the people who, you know, they can't get they can't practice, so they go work for a insurance company?
00:36:17.045 -->
00:36:18.045Mm.
00:36:18.248 -->
00:36:23.356Or is this are these, you know, I don't know what's happen like how did people get into this Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:23.672 -->
00:36:44.929position? ~ As an anesthesiologist, one of the things that I will mention is the American Board of Anesthesiologists is incredibly clear that anesthesiologists will lose their boards their board certification if we participate in state sanctioned killing. I would love for that to be completely normalized.
00:36:44.074 -->
00:36:50.985Yeah, for every board to do that. ~ I have a question that I saw online Mm-hmm.
00:36:50.585 -->
00:37:05.342~ when news of this story first came out was or maybe not a question, but an assumption that I saw was people saying, well, she must be DNR, ~ because they were trying to end her life.
00:37:05.342 -->
00:37:21.278So when she so th there seems to be a lot of confusion around I mean, understandably because it's a Terrible situation. But around what happens if the state was in the in the process Mm-hmm.
00:37:21.202 -->
00:37:31.976of trying to end someone's life and they were not successful at that, and then they transfer, you know, usually you're transferring a patient to a hospital to save their life, right? So Mm-hmm.
00:37:31.811 -->
00:37:39.057how you know, how does this work that the state is trying to end this person's life, but then they're not successful at it?
00:37:39.057 -->
00:37:40.880So then they transfer the person.
00:37:41.206 -->
00:37:55.427to a hospital where clinicians will then save that person's life or at least try to save that person's life, only for what? For that person to then be transferred back to the you know what I'm saying? Like it's it's kind of confusing.
00:37:53.940 -->
00:37:54.940Yeah.
00:37:55.563 -->
00:37:59.306Yeah. I'm actually I'm I I'm really glad you brought that question up.
00:37:59.306 -->
00:38:10.295I'll put a link in the show notes to a piece that I wrote ~ quite a while ago, maybe 2022, 2023, ~ about medical decision making and incarcerated patients.
00:38:10.295 -->
00:38:15.920And you know, the reason that I'd written this had to do with people who were incarcerated who are brought to hospitals.
00:38:15.920 -->
00:38:19.724And there's a lot of misunderstanding.
00:38:19.938 -->
00:38:26.123That people many people in the public think that because you're in jail, that you don't get to make your own health care decisions.
00:38:26.123 -->
00:38:28.385Now, that's not supposed to be true.
00:38:28.385 -->
00:38:36.561You know, your right to your right to privacy as an incarcerated person, your right to autonomous medical decision making is supposed to be preserved.
00:38:36.561 -->
00:38:47.940That's not something that the state is supposed to take away with your incarceration, ~ in alignment with you know federal law and expectations around the care of of people who are incarcerated.
00:38:47.940 -->
00:38:48.940Now.
00:38:49.182 -->
00:38:59.719So it's it's an interesting question, right? Because to be do not resuscitate is a decision that a patient makes for themselves or their surrogate decision maker makes for them.
00:38:59.719 -->
00:39:15.427And so for example, when we have patients in the hospital who are incarcerated, if the person from the jail or whatever says, no, we will make those decisions, like I'm the person I've had to call wardens before and been like, hey, get your get your people in line.
00:39:15.427 -->
00:39:17.543This is illegal. And unless Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:39:17.648 -->
00:39:39.751you have documentation From a judge that you are going to give us that says that you actually have some legal authority. The reality is that you that the prison does not have that legal authority. And so we really push for our patients to be able to make decisions for themselves and to to select surrogate decision makers to help make decisions for them if they can't for themselves.
00:39:39.751 -->
00:39:47.516So in the case, so and this is also part of what's so critical about the fact that clinicians should not be involved in executing people, is because.
00:39:47.655 -->
00:39:51.456This is a very confusing situation that makes no sense.
00:39:51.456 -->
00:39:57.744The reason the public is confused is because what are nurses and doctors doing executing in an in a room to execute a person when Mm-hmm, mm hmm.
00:39:59.847 -->
00:40:06.324they're not going to be keeping up with the other responsibilities they would have to respond in an emergency. And Mm-hmm.
00:40:05.769 -->
00:40:09.271so the state can't make the patient DNR DNI.
00:40:09.271 -->
00:40:15.233They're just not going to offer, the state's not going to offer that while they're doing an execution.
00:40:15.233 -->
00:40:24.773~ But when you take the patient to the hospital, you have to assume that that person is full code, unless there is some document counter-documentation.
00:40:24.773 -->
00:40:33.003And it is absolutely not the role of a local hospital to decide that they are going to complete the execution on behalf of the state.
00:40:32.202 -->
00:40:43.503Right. Right. Yeah, that I saw a lot of people kind of thinking like, they're just gonna let her die, right? And I I mean, as a clinician who's obviously never had anything to do with executions, I was like, How could they do that? They can't do that.
00:40:43.503 -->
00:40:50.009Like unless, as you said, there was some documentation that she didn't want that kind of intensive level of care.
00:40:50.009 -->
00:40:52.920But yeah, I I I saw that there was a lot of confusion around that.
00:40:52.920 -->
00:40:53.920Thank you for explaining.
00:40:54.382 -->
00:40:58.114man, it makes me so angry. It makes me so angry.
00:40:58.114 -->
00:41:03.804I wanted to bring up, you know, I love a book. Listeners, Mm-hmm.
00:41:03.278 -->
00:41:06.579you know I love a book. I really wanted to bring this is a fabulous book.
00:41:06.579 -->
00:41:15.224It was recommended to me by ~ a colleague who writes a lot about specifically issues around around executions. It's by someone named Corinna.
00:41:16.077 -->
00:41:21.001Barrett Lane, and it's called Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection.
00:41:21.001 -->
00:41:32.431For people who are interested in the things that I was just mentioning, you know, issues related to anesthesia, issues related to how these protocols came about and the failures of them.
00:41:32.431 -->
00:41:34.052This is an excellent book.
00:41:34.052 -->
00:41:51.396The other thing I wanted to mention, because just i in context, is that of course, around the time that this was happening is also when Trump decided to approve the military's first firing squad execution since World War Two.
00:41:51.396 -->
00:42:12.483so the federal government has not used a firing squad since World War Two, and he has ~ approved the use of that on Former physician Nadal Hassan, who was a US psychiatrist who killed 13 people in Fort Hood, if folks remember that shooting from 2009.
00:42:12.483 -->
00:42:15.847~ This may not happen for a very long time.
00:42:15.847 -->
00:42:29.838There is somebody, and I apologize, I don't remember their name, who was where one of the Bush presidents had authorized ~ their death by lethal injection way back when, and that execution still has not taken place.
00:42:29.838 -->
00:42:33.980So hopefully Did you say lethal injection or by firing squad?
00:42:33.936 -->
00:42:36.349That was a lethal injection case back then.
00:42:36.349 -->
00:42:40.405This is the first ~ firing squad case, as I said, since World War II.
00:42:40.405 -->
00:42:50.275~ and then the other thing, you know, I There's a an excellent play that I saw when it was touring in the early two thousands called Exonerated.
00:42:50.275 -->
00:43:03.224And it's really about ~ the work of, you know, the Innocence Project in terms of demonstrating how there are so many people who are on death row who are not guilty for one.
00:43:02.907 -->
00:43:03.907Mm-hmm.
00:43:03.224 -->
00:43:13.411And that's and that's not the story with that's not the story that about about Pike. I think the evidence is that she she did murder ~ Colleen Slemmer.
00:43:13.411 -->
00:43:18.389I don't But but we have to have this system where it's not reliable.
00:43:18.389 -->
00:43:19.971I mean, I don't think Mm-hmm.
00:43:19.320 -->
00:43:21.460we should kill people to because they killed people.
00:43:21.460 -->
00:43:24.112I just don't think that that's a logical conclusion.
00:43:24.112 -->
00:43:30.635~ if we're a country that doesn't believe killing people is the right thing to do, it doesn't make sense that we would do it.
00:43:30.635 -->
00:43:31.811We would allow the state to do it, Mm-hmm.
00:43:33.016 -->
00:43:39.057and certainly not to be gleeful in it, as some people clearly are very supportive of this still.
00:43:39.057 -->
00:43:43.880~ but but there's so many people who are on death row.
00:43:44.070 -->
00:43:47.170Who are are innocent. And Mm-hmm.
00:43:46.641 -->
00:43:58.413you go back and you know, the innocence project goes back and looks through their materials only to find that like the DNA is not theirs, there's no evidence. True, they they have an alibi that they're actually someplace Mm-hmm.
00:43:57.708 -->
00:44:04.940else, but the state ignored that evidence or suppressed that evidence, or they did a shitty job because our justice system Yeah. Well is not just.
00:44:04.804 -->
00:44:13.362and there's a lot of presumptions in particular about people who are people who are black, people who are brown, Mm-hmm. People who are poor.
00:44:12.108 -->
00:44:33.057~ people who are poor, where I mean you see there's so many examples of police not really doing thorough investigations, jumping to conclusions, the district attorney taking that and running with it, a jury going along, and next thing you know, Look at well and then you look at this person is is being Sentenced to death.
00:44:33.146 -->
00:44:37.315And then we look at the Cornell Seven case from last week and you Mm-hmm.
00:44:36.637 -->
00:44:45.429have a piss poor investigation and you have a DA who's like,~ why bother? You know, and so these these these Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because they were promising young men, Alyssa.
00:44:46.686 -->
00:44:50.681And these systems exist side by side, you know, these are the same systems.
00:44:50.862 -->
00:44:55.943I I just watched the Eileen Wernos documentary on Netflix.
00:44:55.943 -->
00:45:04.128~ I never saw, you know, ~ her story I think became very well known when Charlie Sterone played her in that movie Mm-hmm.
00:45:04.126 -->
00:45:06.246Monster. I never saw the movie.
00:45:05.708 -->
00:45:08.311Yeah. I did. It was intense.
00:45:06.246 -->
00:45:14.418~ I I did not know the story at all and I have not done, just to be clear, I have not done a deep dive.
00:45:14.795 -->
00:45:16.826I just watched this one documentary.
00:45:16.826 -->
00:45:23.230And in this documentary, because of course she was ~ she was sentenced to death.
00:45:23.230 -->
00:45:31.835and you know, she was a for folks who don't know, this is what I understand, she was a prostitute.
00:45:31.835 -->
00:45:46.333She had a very difficult upbringing, left home, she was abused, all these things, she became a prostitute, and she Went or the first trial that she had was specifically about this one man and whether she had or hadn't killed this man.
00:45:46.333 -->
00:46:01.175This man had a history of abusing people of violence when she said during the trial that he was attacking her and she basically killed him in self-defense. Nobody believed her.
00:46:01.175 -->
00:46:25.126The district attorney refused to look into this person's history, even though they had he had a previous arrest ~ as an adult, mind you. ~ Anyway, it's another example of how flawed our justice system is, because if that trial for that first case had gone differently, then she may still be alive.
00:46:25.126 -->
00:46:39.108And instead, what you know, the process of going through that, at least as it's presented in this documentary, was so difficult for her that then when they charge her, she had killed multiple men, ~ that when they charged her with the other.
00:46:39.958 -->
00:46:43.119Cases, she didn't even want to put up a defense or anything.
00:46:43.119 -->
00:46:51.422She just said, get it over with, kill me, let's move on. ~ and that just happens to be an example that was in my mind because I saw it recently.
00:46:51.422 -->
00:46:58.253But we I think rational people in this country know that we do not have a justice system that functions properly.
00:46:58.253 -->
00:47:06.797So to then give that same system the power to kill people, it does not compute for me. It does not make sense.
00:47:06.797 -->
00:47:17.286Every week or two we hear about someone who was convicted inappropriately, spent decades in prison and has finally been released.
00:47:17.286 -->
00:47:24.949All of those people could have been killed and would never have had a chance to get out. It's already unjust enough.
00:47:24.949 -->
00:47:28.431It's incredibly unjust that they had to spend any time in prison.
00:47:28.431 -->
00:47:40.309But to have stolen them from their family and their loved ones based on a system that cannot reasonably and reliably adjudicate who has actually done what, it just makes no sense.
00:47:41.101 -->
00:47:42.101Yeah.
00:47:45.623 -->
00:47:54.360I agree. For for folks who want to learn ~ more about Christa Pike, I mean, she her I mean, we're we're obviously having all these conversations.
00:47:54.360 -->
00:47:56.242She herself was a victim of child rape.
00:47:56.242 -->
00:48:03.539She was assaulted many times. ~ this crime that she was convicted of she did when she was a teenager.
00:48:03.539 -->
00:48:20.583~ these these issues are connected,~ in addition to what is considered just in America or not. So I will put ~ a link to I ironically, it's it's Cornell Law School that's put together a really great collection.
00:48:19.777 -->
00:48:20.777Yeah.
00:48:20.583 -->
00:48:26.257I know we're we're we're not very happy with Cornell generally, but it's the Cornell Center on death penalty worldwide.
00:48:26.257 -->
00:48:32.063And they've put together a collection of information about this case that I think is particularly helpful.
00:48:32.063 -->
00:48:34.074And so I will include that as well in the show notes.
00:48:35.532 -->
00:48:38.302Great. ~ well, thank you so much for going over that.
00:48:38.302 -->
00:48:43.574I know this case has been in the news and there's been a lot of misunderstandings about it.
00:48:43.574 -->
00:48:46.317So thank you for going through all of that.
00:48:46.317 -->
00:48:58.744~ there's some, you know, other news stories that we wanted to just bring to folks' attention, ~ things that happened that we won't have, you know, too much time to talk about today, but just to put on your radar as they say.
00:48:59.088 -->
00:49:02.309There has been another person who died from measles.
00:49:02.309 -->
00:49:05.891Again, measles is a completely vaccine-preventable illness.
00:49:05.891 -->
00:49:08.063This person was not vaccinated.
00:49:08.063 -->
00:49:19.679This person was 20 years old and had leukemia, could not be vaccinated because of the treatments they were getting for their leukemia, ~ and then contracted measles and died from that.
00:49:19.679 -->
00:49:27.003And as we've talked about before, this is another example of why public health isn't you do you.
00:49:28.099 -->
00:49:35.032And one individual's choice to not get vaccinated or not have their kids affects the other individuals in that community.
00:49:35.032 -->
00:49:38.472And we know, yes, babies can't get vaccinated.
00:49:38.472 -->
00:49:43.434We previously talked about a pregnant person ~ who could not get vaccinated.
00:49:43.434 -->
00:49:57.148Now we have this 20-year-old who did not, again, vaccine preventable illness should not have died from measles, who is no longer alive because of the lack of vaccination, the lack of herd immunity.
00:49:57.519 -->
00:50:02.920in their community. So Yeah, I would say I would say our podcast is strongly opposed to DIY public health.
00:50:04.909 -->
00:50:11.188Yeah. I think that's correct. ~ I We should be able to put on T shirts, you know, when we're ready for merch.
00:50:11.717 -->
00:50:17.596Yeah, we need like a DIY public health and like that red X, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:50:14.757 -->
00:50:19.858or not even an X, but the diagonal line through it. Yeah, no, we don't believe in that.
00:50:19.858 -->
00:50:30.541another public health related or kind of health-related anyway, update is, you know, a while back, months ago, folks may remember we talked about this study that ~ RFK Jr.
00:50:30.541 -->
00:50:38.403had approved funding for with these researchers, European researchers who wanted to go to this small ~ country, Guinea-Bissau.
00:50:38.880 -->
00:51:04.175And do a completely unethical study of withholding hepatitis B vaccine from~ newborns there. There was a lot of attention brought to this decision making, and ultimately, for many reasons, the study was not allowed to move forward at that time, including the government of that country, Guinea-Bissau, saying, No, this doesn't seem like a thing that we want you to do, Because it's totally unethical.
00:51:01.934 -->
00:51:02.934this is unethical.
00:51:04.655 -->
00:51:08.789Yes. And we You know, we did a deep dive on that whole study before on the pod.
00:51:08.789 -->
00:51:12.490Well, apparently it's now back on the table.
00:51:12.490 -->
00:51:21.925they are trying to revive that study and give more money or give money again to those researchers. I was very upset to see that.
00:51:21.925 -->
00:51:23.445Like we already went down this road.
00:51:23.445 -->
00:51:29.027We had lots of discussions, and I don't mean just like you and I, but like as a society about No, like yeah.
00:51:29.038 -->
00:51:32.650why this was inappropriate. And they I guess they thought we'd forget.
00:51:32.650 -->
00:51:33.650I don't know.
00:51:33.648 -->
00:51:35.748But so that's happening. We'll keep an eye on that.
00:51:35.748 -->
00:51:54.677~ I also wanted to give an update on Nolan Wells, who we've talked about, ~ this young teenager who had gone out with friends on 4th of July. And although his white friends all made it back home safely, he as a a young black man did not.
00:51:54.677 -->
00:52:00.070~ now, I it's been a few weeks since we talked about it, so I just want to give highlights.
00:52:00.918 -->
00:52:17.393One is that we do now have the autopsy results from ~ from the examination, and there was no fluid in his lungs, although the ~ conclusion that some have come to was that he had drowned.
00:52:17.393 -->
00:52:25.735There was no fluid in her in his lungs, and there were two wounds on the back of his head that looked like, you know, kind of contusions, is my understanding.
00:52:25.735 -->
00:52:39.280and I am not of pathologist, but I did ask ~ on social media of our, you know, physician networks whether that makes any sense.
00:52:39.280 -->
00:52:55.434I also looked up what are the typical findings in a drowning and it's not, it's pretty intuitive. You would expect to see fluid in the lungs and there and there wasn't any Well and usually people get like pulmonary edema too.
00:52:56.547 -->
00:53:03.233Yeah, there's lots of things. I have a I can put a link to an article that kind of typical pathological findings in a drowning.
00:53:02.416 -->
00:53:03.632Mm, mm.
00:53:03.672 -->
00:53:07.255And those d those were not present in this case.
00:53:07.255 -->
00:53:17.893~ and yet the FBI has concluded there is no need to do an investigation because it was a drowning. ~ even though that's not really what the pathologist Hm.
00:53:17.764 -->
00:53:32.148report concludes. ~ so long story short is that this poor family continues to seek the information that they have every right to which is to know what happened to their son on that day.
00:53:32.148 -->
00:53:43.695And so we'll keep following and share important updates as they become I'm to I'm gonna turn it over to you before I come back with my last one because my last one will be at least a little bit funny.
00:53:46.181 -->
00:54:01.871Okay, well, for folks who may or may not have seen it, there's a article in the Atlantic on the Ven mitochondrial condition that we've seeing in Venezuelan children andor children of maternal Venezuelan descent.
00:54:01.871 -->
00:54:11.326We talked about this many months ago on the show, and ~ you know, more research is coming out, and there's a really good article that I'll put a link to if you want to learn more about it.
00:54:11.778 -->
00:54:16.411~ in a in a storytelling form, hearing from a family that was really impacted by this.
00:54:16.871 -->
00:54:36.097Mm-hmm. Perfect. Okay, the last thing is I have really come to the conclusion that Pete Hexeth has a humiliation kink because he keeps, I'm serious, because he keeps inviting himself to these military workouts where he looks a fool. And so he did it again this week.
00:54:36.097 -->
00:54:40.460There are multiple clips ~ that you can find online of him.
00:54:40.460 -->
00:54:43.873One is one is they're right, they're running around a racetrack.
00:54:44.452 -->
00:54:49.014And it's like all these military people, and then there's like a big pause.
00:54:49.014 -->
00:54:50.706You know, the camera's stationary.
00:54:50.567 -->
00:54:51.782Cause they're waiting for him.
00:54:50.706 -->
00:54:52.016You see all these military people.
00:54:52.177 -->
00:54:58.402There's a big pause in in the in the in the field, like you you see no one for like a couple seconds.
00:54:58.402 -->
00:55:02.125And then here comes Pete Heggs, like well after everyone else.
00:55:02.125 -->
00:55:06.106There's another clip of them doing, I think they're supposed to be doing bear crawls.
00:55:06.106 -->
00:55:09.019He does not look like he's doing a proper bear craw crawl.
00:55:09.019 -->
00:55:11.050But anyway, I think that's what they're trying to do.
00:55:11.050 -->
00:55:12.442And he looks again.
00:55:12.826 -->
00:55:28.143Terrible. And then and then the other clip that's there's multiple, but the last one that I'll bring up is that it looks like he's now at at this pull-up station and there's someone counting down and it's like him and some of these other military folks, and they're supposed to looks like they're about to do pull-ups.
00:55:28.143 -->
00:55:32.867And then at the last second, they're like three, two, one. He's like, I'm just gonna go say hi to these guys over here.
00:55:32.867 -->
00:55:37.039And then there's like people walking by or running by, and he like gives them high fives and stuff.
00:55:37.039 -->
00:55:39.590In the meantime, the people he was just with start doing pull-ups.
00:55:39.590 -->
00:55:41.552It really looks like, I mean.
00:55:41.976 -->
00:55:43.266Maybe there's more to the story.
00:55:43.266 -->
00:55:59.559But it really looks like he was like, Yeah, I'm already tired. I just want you to remember that this is the guy who said, No fatties, no trannies, no weirdos, no beirdos, just warriors. Just war I mean, What a disgusting person. God, he's so gross.
00:55:58.693 -->
00:56:03.695yes, he is a disgusting person. And he has shown time and again that he's not a warrior.
00:56:03.695 -->
00:56:10.818So even with his own kind of guidelines for who belongs in the military, it is not him. Anyway.
00:56:11.335 -->
00:56:17.711That's ~ that's Pete Hexeth, who's yes, terrible, terrible person. But let's now talk about good things.
00:56:17.711 -->
00:56:20.014What would you what would you like?
00:56:19.358 -->
00:56:20.358Finally.
00:56:20.114 -->
00:56:23.579Yes. After after like an hour of torture.
00:56:23.579 -->
00:56:27.362~ and now for something positive.
00:56:27.362 -->
00:56:30.996what is your recommendation for folks for our take two?
00:56:30.478 -->
00:56:31.996Okay. So Call me in the morning second.
00:56:32.610 -->
00:56:37.713I recently saw a handful of poems that were written about AI.
00:56:37.713 -->
00:56:43.976And I've I'm like, really, you know, the the news sucks, as we know very intimately on this on this here's show.
00:56:43.976 -->
00:56:46.257And so I've been trying to read more poetry.
00:56:46.257 -->
00:56:53.347And so, you know, if I come across some poems that are interesting, I think that's, you know, I like to go for it and make Sure.
00:56:52.672 -->
00:56:57.204myself slow down. So ~ there's this poet I really like named Kate Bear.
00:56:57.838 -->
00:57:01.038And she wrote one. I'm just gonna read it for you if that's okay.
00:57:01.038 -->
00:57:04.708Okay. It's called Failed Chat GPT.
00:57:07.268 -->
00:57:11.211Write a poem in free verse in the form of a better poet.
00:57:11.211 -->
00:57:17.737Invite the audience to wonder, avoid metaphor and simile. Make them second guess their lover.
00:57:17.737 -->
00:57:24.583Bracket, allow time, bracket, allow risks, bracket, allow sex, bracket, allow brevity.
00:57:24.583 -->
00:57:32.369Give up your darlings, get rid of pomp and wonder, tell the truth, something mortal, something we can't get for free.
00:57:33.869 -->
00:58:02.427I thought it was fun. It made me think I was saying, I saw my friend ~ at up at Hardly Strictly Bluegrass last weekend and ~ and we saw Gillian Welch play and I was like, Yeah, man, all this AI stuff totally she had this really beautiful song back in the early two thousands called Everything Is Free, which was about Napster and how like musicians were just all their work was being stolen and being sold and you know, or given away or whatever. ~ anyway, I'll put some links to some poems.
00:58:04.014 -->
00:58:07.327Okay. Thank you. ~ What about you?
00:58:08.815 -->
00:58:10.777I had two things. I'm gonna save one.
00:58:10.777 -->
00:58:25.769Okay. I did not know that there's an Iranian woman who's been like swimming bodies of water. ~ and she just swam the English channel~ successfully, setting some kind of record.
00:58:25.769 -->
00:58:29.681Hold on, let me pull up the actual details.
00:58:29.681 -->
00:58:32.972Floating, loading.
00:58:31.527 -->
00:58:36.643and while you do that I have I got you a gift. So while you look I'm gonna find my gift~ for you.
00:58:36.440 -->
00:58:38.215well that's so nice.
00:58:38.344 -->
00:58:47.291So this woman's name is Raha Ahaban, and she swam for nearly 20 hours to become the first Iranian woman to swim across the English Channel.
00:58:47.291 -->
00:58:49.572And she did this last month. She's an academic.
00:58:49.572 -->
00:59:00.061she also became the first Iranian person to hold the title of Triple Crown Open Water Swimming, having finished the 20-mile California Catalina Channel.
00:59:00.541 -->
00:59:02.012the twenty one mile Well.
00:59:01.585 -->
00:59:04.878English Channel and the thirty mile twenty bridges of Manhattan.
00:59:05.860 -->
00:59:07.972I can't imagine swimming one mile.
00:59:13.195 -->
00:59:17.661That I have done. time and so she's No, I I did it I did it in high school, a long time ago.
00:59:17.121 -->
00:59:26.262so she she's like swimming in the dark. I'm not interested in being an open in an open of water in the dark. Just that's me.
00:59:26.262 -->
00:59:28.594I'm a little too scared, too much of a scaredy cat.
00:59:28.056 -->
00:59:32.545But this that this lady's a lot cooler than we are and also braver.
00:59:33.349 -->
00:59:35.250Clearly. Yes. Absolutely.
00:59:35.849 -->
00:59:58.277And what I love is I'll put a clip, I'll put a link to a clip where she talks about she's ~ whatever body shape one may have envisioned for her as I've been telling the story, it's probably not correct. and so she talks in this clip about how important it is to not have preconceived notions about what kind of person can do these Mm, mm-hmm.
00:59:58.306 -->
01:00:03.902and that women should have the freedom to wear whatever swimsuit we want to wear, no matter what our body looks like.
01:00:03.902 -->
01:00:10.097And anyway, it's a very positive, empowering message. As an Iranian woman, I'm like, this lady is very cool.
01:00:10.097 -->
01:00:19.543~ as you said. ~ anyway, so I'll put a link to that little positive news story~ to give people a little bit of inspiration.
01:00:18.454 -->
01:00:22.114Excellent. Well, do you want to see what I what I got for you?
01:00:19.543 -->
01:00:23.257yeah. Sure.
01:00:22.114 -->
01:00:25.208I I was at I was at the library and they had Yes. I was not expecting a gift.
01:00:26.666 -->
01:00:44.639an entire the this entire plage of just ~ a page, an entire shelf right at the front of all banned books and they had them all wrapped up and so you could like pick, you know, they were encouraging people to read these books and just talking about why these books were banned. ~ and Mm-hmm.
01:00:43.994 -->
01:00:47.545they had some buttons to give away.
01:00:48.597 -->
01:00:50.719And I got this persepolis button for you.
01:00:51.137 -->
01:00:54.123~ my gosh, amazing. Thank you so much.
01:00:54.123 -->
01:00:55.989I love that.
01:00:55.637 -->
01:00:58.114Anyway, I saw that and I was like, I know who needs this.
01:00:58.550 -->
01:01:01.853Yes, yes, Persepolis by Marjan Satrapy.
01:01:01.853 -->
01:01:03.775Thank you so much. That's very sweet.
01:01:03.394 -->
01:01:04.394Wonderful.
01:01:04.056 -->
01:01:06.172all right. Well I think Hmm.
01:01:05.813 -->
01:01:07.615that's it for this week's episode.
01:01:07.615 -->
01:01:11.300If you didn't like what you heard, this has been the Goop Podcast.
01:01:11.300 -->
01:01:17.586If you liked it, don't forget to subscribe to the present illness, leave us a review, please tell other folks to tune in as well.
01:01:18.378 -->
01:01:21.974And most importantly, don't ever use a jade egg.
01:01:21.974 -->
01:01:24.168Don't do that. Follow Ha ha ha.
01:01:24.208 -->
01:01:29.697us on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube at the Present Illness to stay on top of all of our TPI related news.
01:01:30.364 -->
01:01:34.943We will be back next week with more headlines, hot takes and doom scrolling, hopefully wrapped in some laughs.
01:01:35.242 -->
01:01:37.152Until then, agitate, hydrate, take a nap.
01:01:37.152 -->
01:01:38.932We'll see you next time on the present illness.
01:01:38.932 -->
01:01:46.175Production by Arghavan Salles, and Alyssa Burgart, editing by Alyssa Burgart, social media by Arghavan Salles, original music by Joseph Uphoff.
01:01:46.175 -->
01:01:49.186Don't take medical advice from random people on a podcast.
01:01:49.186 -->
01:01:53.277Shows for informational purposes, it's meant to be fun, and it is certainly not medical advice.
01:01:53.277 -->
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01:01:56.018 -->
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