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Few people have watched the Kirkpatrick Model travel across as many organizations as Wendy Kayser Kirkpatrick. Founder of Kirkpatrick Partners, steward of the model for 16 years, and the author of the foreword to Vanessa's new book, Wendy joins the show to talk about what the model was always meant to be — and the misreadings that still hold teams back.
Vanessa and Wendy dig into the belief that quietly wastes the most time and money: treating the four levels as sequential and equal, perfecting reaction sheets while the levels that matter wait years for attention. Wendy traces the model back to Don Kirkpatrick's 1950s dissertation, explains why Level 3 has an undeserved reputation for being "hard," and shares who she's seen do evaluation genuinely well. Along the way she reframes the whole discipline in a single line Vanessa promises to steal: training can only prepare people — the results come from partnership across the business.
In This Episode
● Why "sequential and equal" is the costliest misconception in L&D.
● The real reason organizations default to Levels 1 and 2 — and how to move.
● Why Level 3 isn't hard; it's where L&D earns its seat at the table.
● What the U.S. military and fast-moving corporations each get right.
● "Training can only prepare" — a phrase to use with your stakeholders.
Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model and upcoming programs at kirkpatrickpartners.com.
Enterprise Performance Intelligence (EPI) Maturity AssessmentThink your organization is measuring impact? Most aren't.
The EPI Maturity Assessment helps you quickly identify where you stand—and what's needed to better connect learning to performance and results.
👉 Take the assessment and get clarity on your next step.
Building a Culture of EvaluationOrder the book behind the Culture of Evaluation framework and updated Kirkpatrick Model. The book comes with a Companion Guide to help support you on the journey.
Kirkpatrick Learning and Performance Center of Excellence Certification builds capability. Accreditation builds systems. The Kirkpatrick Certified Organization accreditation recognizes organizations that have embedded the Kirkpatrick Four Levels® into how they actually operate — through governance, SOPs, feedback loops, and cross-functional accountability. If your evaluation capability would disappear when a key person leaves, this is the credential designed to fix that. Founding Organization status is now open — first year of annual maintenance waived for inaugural cohort members.
Not ready to apply yet because you need to build the systems? Grab the SOPs. We're building a library of Kirkpatrick-standard SOPs — governance frameworks, evaluation procedures for all four levels, planning templates, and implementation guides — so you can build your infrastructure before you apply.
Kirkpatrick CollectiveIf you're ready to move beyond activity and start driving real performance, the Kirkpatrick Collective brings together leaders focused on applying evaluation in the real world.
Get practical tools, shared insight, and the structure to make better, evidence-based decisions.
👉 Join the Collective and start building evaluation as a capability—not just an activity.
Learn more about the Kirkpatrick Model
Submit your Questions/Stories: Do you have a question you would like us to answer on the Kirkpatrick Podcast? Have a story about how the Kirkpatrick Podcast or other Kirkpatrick events/programs have positively impacted your career? We would love to hear from you! Follow this link to submit your questions and/or stories, and we may just share them on the next episode of the Kirkpatrick Podcast.
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