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Hello and welcome to this unique podcast about the research project, the intuitive encounter.
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And welcome also to a rare and exploratory dialogue between Ruskilde University in Denmark.
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And Hartmut Rosa, I'm Professor of Sociology at the University of Jena in Germany.
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I'm also directing the Max Weber Kolleg.
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It's an institute for advanced study at the University of Erfurt.
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And I'm very interested in this project on mentorship because it's it's such an interesting case of human interaction.
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It opens it's opening up spheres of resonance, but also of kind of professional work.
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It comes, it it opens up existential questions and ethical questions, and of course, it opens up very interesting fields into social theory.
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So I'm very much looking forward to uh getting more insights in this project and having uh conversations on all the different aspects of it.
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I'm also directing the Max Weber Colleague, it's an institute for advanced study at the University of Erfurt.
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And I'm very interested in this project of uh on mentorship uh because it's it's such an interesting case of human interaction.
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It opens up existential questions and ethical questions, and of course, it opens up very interesting fields into social theory.
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So I'm very much looking forward to uh getting more insights in this project and having uh conversations on all the different aspects of it.
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I am a PhD student in this uh project about voluntary mentorship.
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And the title for my part of this research project is Good Mentoring in the Context of Social Vulnerability.
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And I investigate this from an existential and ethical angle, trying to look into these kind of ethical tensions that uh is certainly there when doing this kind of relational work with uh a mentor and a mentee in civil society.
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My educational background is that I have a bachelor's degree from Roskell University in philosophy and theory of science, and also geography, and then I have a master's in philosophy of education from uh Aarhus University.
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What I really hope in regards to this podcast and conversation with Habnun Rusa is that we really kind of elaborate on the aspects that we in initially in this project have been writing about resonance.
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We use resonance very broadly, and talking to Hablun Rusa, I think we kind of get a sense that we can be more specific as to how to incorporate it and how to use it in the research projects.
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But I also really hope all these good talks with Hablon Rosa can can affect Ben a little and how they use it in their work and really can seep into their practices because I really see that there is a possibility here, and and I very much see that there are resonance and uncontrollability in all of these good concepts can be put into good use here.
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So I also we we we already touched upon this before.
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It relates to that discussion around empathy and resonance.
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So I work with uh Edi Stein's concepts of of empathy as a way of understanding how the other can appear as a subject whose experience can be approached but never persists.
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You could say, how would you distinguish empathy from resonance?
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Is empathy a condition for resonance?
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Is it a form of resonance, or does resonance begin only when the relation moves beyond understanding the other towards a transformation of one's relation to the world?
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Well, I I think it it depends a bit on how we define empathy, right?
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I mean the different people do it in very different uh uh forms and ways.
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But uh when you take uh Edith Stein's uh conception, for example, right, I I would say it's then it's an element of resonance, right?
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This sense of empathy, right?
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The openness, the the attempt to understand the other, to the the idea of establishing contact without having control over the other side.
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If there's a distinction, then I I think it's maybe more a distinction in emphasis.
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Because for me, resonance it has this kind of responsive move, right?
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It's a kind of mutual movement, right?
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I try to respond, and then and that's where how transformation comes in, right?
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It kind of transforms the relationship and who we are, and there I think there's a certain difference in in uh um in emphasis, but I I don't I don't see any need to kind of artificially create deep uh distinctions between resonance and empathy.
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Okay, that's so interesting.
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So I I I would just say I think you're very right.
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So I think that that that's really an aspect of resonance that can contribute to the aspect of empathy.
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You can ask the question, did you feel alive in this situation?
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That's a really nice question, I think, because it's kind of highlights this dimension of also feeling touched by something, uh like having the sense, and not only perhaps just in a pure epistemological and ontological sense, like registering that some something is there, but also being really moved by it.
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I really like it.
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Really in it, right?
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I think the the moments in which we feel alive is the moments where we are really completely immersed in it, right?
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I feel so normally.
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I mean, if you're if if you're not alive, right?
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I I very often use the term alienation for that, right?
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Yeah, you really feel that you're somehow distanced, you observe something, you might be even interfering in it, right?
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But you're not really in it, right?
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This openness, which is a kind of you you could really I I think it's very interesting to think of it, right?
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Really like opening your whole being up to the other, right?
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And then it kinds of it gets a kind of um you could sometimes I call it term semi-permeability, right?
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Between me and the other.
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It's a kind of it's it's this sense of connection which is aliveness, yeah.
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Okay, so interesting.
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So I would like to ask you another question: is is how can resonance theory help us distinguish between mentoring as the opening of a genuine resonance axis and uh where the young person can answer with their own voice and perhaps transform this relation to the world.
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So that would be the one, and the other is uh and mentoring as a subtle form of adaptation to institutional expectations.
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Social inclusion agendas or ideals of of what a good mentor should be, and or should like a responsible young young person.
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Yeah, I mean the I think the question is whether these two go together, right?
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I mean, the the the the openness in in the encounter and the sense of helping and nudging in a certain direction, right?
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Uh but I but I do think it's possible that they go together because I mean you know when you kind of really open up to someone, right?
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And you I think a requirement for good mentorship and for resonance, right?
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Is a kind of in in in the resonance book I call it intrinsic interest.
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I really must be interested in you, right?
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And if I'm really interested, I mean if you were the mentee, right, in in the other uh person, but actually it's it's even mutual, also the mentee needs to be interested in the mentor, right?
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He hear what he or she has what what their experiences are, right?
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I think the mentorship really works.
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It's kind of both sides.
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We should not think of it always in the sense of, oh, the mentor has a kind of task with the mentee, right?
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It only works if the mentee is also interested in this mentor.
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What kind of person is he, right?
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What's his experiences?
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I really also think of the age difference there, right?
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So it only works if the m if also the mentee opens up and has a genuine interest in the other person.
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Who is it?
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Why is he saying this?
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And certainly might be a bit strange in one way or the other.
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Everyone is a bit strange, right?
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Yeah.
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So it has this kind of mutual opening up.
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But then then I I think it so the one thing is in is the interest.
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I'm I'm interested in you, right?
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But the other thing is if you have an resonant relationship, you want the other uh to to thrive, to be well, right?
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And of course we have certain ideas what it means to be well, right?
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I could even say to be yourself, right?
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I I mean it's it's really like in friendship or even in love, right?
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You want the other person to be to be shining, you could say, right?
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And of course, then you know, well, if for you to thrive, let's say if I'm the mentor and the other person is the mentee, right?
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I think it it would then I somehow feel that it would be good if you were not abusing alcohol or or heroin or whatever it is every day, right?
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Or it might be good for you to go to school, right?
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Then it's not because I have a kind of professional idea of what you should do.
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Whenever I have an idea of what you that's paternalism, right?
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Paternalism is really the problem in the mentorship.
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I think I know what's good for you.
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Now let's see how we get you there.
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But that's not a resonant relationship, it's not even a good mentorship, it won't, it won't work.
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Yeah, so also I mean I I think that's what what I have also met in these mentorships is that I mean, especially between you know, for instance, the these uh youth, young people, and if they have a mentor, like very quickly uh it can become this kind of paternalistic uh maternalistic relationship.
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Yeah, because for instance, if if there's a young mentee who kind of is um I think we we had one actually saying that uh because he had an older uh female mentee and and it was really kind of the significance of her to him was that uh he didn't want a pedagogue that was really important for him, but he also kind of didn't want a mother, yeah.
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But uh felt like he kind of in like was conflicted between that because he also like he perhaps he had some kind of problems with his own mother or something.
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So he has but but he also needed a friend, and I think it's this complexity in a relationship that they don't really know what they want perhaps, but they in it's very situational in a sense.
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But but that's but that's the thing with the uncontrollability, right?
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I mean, a problem for the organization, right?
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I really think I find this project really interesting, right?
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Also from a sociological uh uh standpoint, because it's it's a bit as as you just indicated, right?
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I think there are four roles which are not clearly defined, right?
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One is the mentor as a kind of parent.
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It clearly has a kind of this uh this function, right?
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But then the other is the teacher, right, who shows you what it is.
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The third is a kind of professional social worker, right?
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And the fourth is friendship, right?
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And it moves exactly in this, it's it moves in the interspace between these things.
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I I could actually think that sometimes it's more like a parent, sometimes it's more like a teacher, sometimes it's like a friend, right?
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So it's and I think you cannot define it what how you should do it, and you could not say it's 20% of this or for 50% of the other.
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So a relation, every relationship has a kind of its own logic, and it's very important to bring out this own logic.
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Of course, of course, then it's a question of balancing.
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You have to keep in mind that you're not simply the friend of this other person, right?
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There is a kind of um almost professional distance which you and but also of age difference or experience difference which you have to uh to value.
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But it is this kind of sorting it out.
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But but I still have this hope.
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You know, one should not let as soon as you let uh override what what you do by reflection on oh, am I now doing what the mother does, or is I am now I do am I now too much of a teacher or so?
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Then you're at least for that moment you're out of the resonant relationship, right?
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It's really completely opening up to, you know, this is why I've been working so much in the last um couple of months, at least or more years, on situational justice.
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Do what is required in this situation, right?
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Let's say you have the mentorship program, right, and the mentor and the mentee are together, then it it particularly for the mentor, it really depends on what is the right thing to do in the situation.
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What does the situation require right now?
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That's different from uh reflecting on what does my role require or the organization require.
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Yeah, it's funny you say that with situational justice because I've I've thought it from the angle of situational ethics.
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What is right to do, uh but perhaps that's more from an outside perspective.
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No, but yeah, but I think probably the difference there is small, right?
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You could call it situational ethics.
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But I think also you're right that it it it this kind of relationship, what is characteristic of them, and you as you say we have to kind of look at their own logic.
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I think that's very much the situational element that you really have to look close.
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That's one question.
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And how do you think that we as a researcher, what what can we use as tools perhaps for kind of clarifying these logics, internal logics?
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Well, I think as a researcher, the main time, and that's fascinating, that's why I like the research project, right?
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Is it in the first place not to know what to do because it's not interfering, right?
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But to really analyze it.
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I I find that really interesting, right?
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To see what's going on.
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And actually, I don't know what you will find.
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I mean, I could assume that you might find a kind of gradual movement from a more kind of uh let's call it paternalistic or the meta or metanalistic way to more friendship relationship, but maybe that's not true.
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I mean, it might also go the other way around.
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You enter very naively in the sense of making friends or so, and then you realize, oh no, here it's uh I have a different role.
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I'd rather need to be so I think observe the dynamics and the dialectics, and maybe you find a kind of permanent movement or shift, right?
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So I think it's really important to see and to really, I would kind of uh suggest a kind of symmetrical perspective on both sides.
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It's not one person needing help and the other being the helper, right?
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It's really two people meeting each other.
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In the in the in the conversation with Lotte, we already talked about this, that people engage in voluntary work also, maybe even because of a need, but uh but a human need as human beings.
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I mean, loneliness is such a huge problem in society, right?
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And people want to I I I th I find this so important.
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People really have a deep yearning, whether they know it or not, to be kind of good persons and to good to do good things, right?
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So it's it's kind of I I I would really say the relationship is kind of symmetrical.
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You have two human beings meeting, right?
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So I think for the research, really observe.
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How what it does to the two, right?
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Resonance says it transformed both of them and it transformed the relationship.
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So I found this is the most fascinating research field.
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For the organization, of course, it's that's pretty tricky, right?
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I mean, because of course you have to get funding and you get it when you can prove that something beneficial comes out of it.
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And of course, you have kind of legal responsibilities that the mentor does not engage in criminal actions or whatever it is, right?
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So so I think the organization can just kind of try, of course, set frameworks and make them as wide as possible.
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Keep open the sense of what you call situational ethics.
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What does the situation require?
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I think one can train that a bit.
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And it's in and in particular, I I really think the good thing about we talked about pedagogy earlier in the other conversation with Lotte.
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The good thing for the pedagogue is really not to be too fixed on goals, right?
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I mean, I think if a mentor goes into the mentorship and the thing, okay, I have three goals.
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I want this person to have a home after a year and to have a job and to have friends.
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This is not how it works, right?
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It's a uh so you should be focused on the dynamics of the relationship, not of the output.
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You know, in my terms, I would say it's not an input-output question.
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What do I put in?
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What do we get out of it?
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It's a throughput.
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What's happening in between?
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I mean, you're touching upon something here that's really, I think, definitional, or what is it called, towards these kind of mentorships, and I think that's why we also got the the money for investigating this, because it's uh the title of our project was The Intuitive Encounter.
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Yeah.
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What I've been doing is I've been looking into the literature of mentorships, and um one aspect of it is that especially in the industry sector and the educational sector, there's this kind of managerial discourse around mentorships as the kind of input-output goal oriented, very transactional.
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And it makes sense because you're when you go into higher education, go into a workplace, that you you kind of you need to be to get onboarded into some kind of processes and so on.
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And and and it's really interesting and fascinating.
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And but the funny thing is that that it it has shown that these mentorships, these relationships are quite uh effective for doing this kind of thing.
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So yeah, but that's that's but but they all that's one side of it.
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The other side is that that they can also be used as this uh Helen Colley who wrote a very famous uh book about mentorships, in in which she also uh criticizes mentorships for being used for like neoliberal per purposes.
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And I think that's also has happened in in Denmark and has happened several places.
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But her case is uh the UK in the 90s, and how I mean the social reforms uh kind of adopted this approach towards mentoring, that mentoring could be a social intervention, getting your youth off the streets.
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And I think that very much has this kind of goal, very goal-oriented, and perhaps like so we I mean that's that's the um uh I understand, yeah.
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Yeah, I think that's the kind of the the logic that uh the organization is also operating in this field.
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Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And then you get into tensions, but I think I and that's a pro that's something I I with the resonance project, right?
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And theory, I always also have uh the this problem that people would actually say it's kind of you can use it, instrumentalize it, for example, uh have your a more successful company, right, through um or more successful management by creating resonance or so.
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But but I think well, I I really I I do have a view on this.
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I mean, I would really say if it's good for the youth, right, then it's good per se, right?
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Whether that's also in accordance with neoliberal goals or not, actually I would almost say I don't care, right?
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But my hope is, and I'm pretty sure wherever you establish such relationships, it has a kind of transgressive power, right?
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Because then people really have the experience it's possible to be to be in a relationship which has the end in itself, right?
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Because in the program, the mentor and the mentee are not thinking of somehow satisfying uh neoliberal requirements.
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And and they are in this experience and in this relationship, there's a kind of transgressive power.
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Let's kind of do away with institutional structures and requirements, which kind of prevent us from having this kind of relationship.
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I mean, and the other thing is when you try to instrumentalize it, right, you s you quickly reach the you you hit ceilings, right?
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Because of course the growth logic then hits in, right?
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Is you somehow do a kind of evaluation process, which mentoring program is working better, right?
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:37.200
And then you try to increase the efficiency, right?
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.559
And I think, and then you quickly see that it doesn't work anymore, right?
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.079
Because that's the what I call the uncontrollability of resonance, right?
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:45.839
Because it has a kind of proper logic.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.680
It's a bit, I really find very interesting this thing about falling asleep.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.240
I mean, you know, I I really would say it's the same with sleep a bit, right?
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:56.160
We know that sleep is good for us, right?
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.519
Everyone knows I have to sleep.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.759
Sleep is good for your brain, it's good for your health, it's good for your social relationship, for your skin, for your hair, for everything, right?
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.759
So, but the fact that you know that it's good doesn't help you to fall asleep, right?
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:15.440
And the more you want to kind of make that efficient, I have to fall asleep in 10 minutes or so, the less you will be successful, right?
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.200
Sleep is a kind of side effect.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.279
So I think it's a bit like with this mentorship program.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.079
Yes, it might have beneficial side effects.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:47.519
These youth people, what they kind of put into question is I think like so, for instance, very low practical aspect is that the mentor uh meets a mentee, and the mentee like really just want to be together with the mentor but not do anything.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:52.319
And we kind of see this there's no progression in the relationship, they just need someone to be with.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:52.799
Yeah.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:28:00.720
And it can be perhaps be so the question arises but what what to what is the purpose of this in a sense, uh in in a long term, a bigger perspective?
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.759
What is the purpose of this social mentorship?
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.359
Is it just to be together with no purpose?
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:22.079
Because I mean that's the the organization is th uh living on good results that that something is happening but at the same time they are establishing these uh like non-purposeful relationships.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.480
So we have this kind of paradox.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.960
One could say that, but it's like a it's like intention in that.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:43.359
And that that leads to my question, actually, because do you think that that I mean these kind of existential tensions in a sense could that be also challenging like resonance theory or some other like uncontrollability aspects?
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:52.319
Well, I mean, I I really I I have this hope that's I always used Leonard Cohn's phrase, there's a crack in everything, right?
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:53.440
That's how the light gets in.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.880
And I would really say you see this in kind of in resonant relationships.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.599
There are the cracks which also have the power to transform society, at least that's my hope, right?
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.039
I I I somehow want to go for a revolution of a of the system, right?
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.839
But I think we have to start with enabling creating spaces for this relationship.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.359
Maybe we can somehow solve the paradox, right?
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:19.039
Because I would say on the one hand, you can prove, I think, right, you could empirically prove it's like with sleep, right?
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:21.599
Sleep has good effects.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.640
And I think I really think you could say the same, and you could probably prove it with a resonant relationship, right?
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:36.240
So if young people in particular, but it's true for everyone, but let's say for young people, if they develop an axis of resonance with another person, it will have beneficial side effects.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.960
I think this is probably easy to prove, right?
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:49.359
It is the likelihood that they get a job, that they get a home, that they get they get off drugs clearly increases if they establish, I would say, an axis of resonance with someone, right?
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:58.799
But now the thing is if you enter in such a mentorship program, right, then of course you might have the kind of the neoliberal idea, okay, after one year the person should be in education, right?
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:04.079
So now the two the mentor and the mentee enter into a kind of resonant relationship.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:09.839
And at first maybe the mentor thinks I have to bring this kid in in school or in education, whatever it is, right?
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:14.960
But then if there's real resonance, it means I'm not instrumentalizing it.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.480
You know, that would be Pythonalism is really un un-resonant.
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:19.759
I want you to go to school.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:21.279
That has nothing to do with resonance.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.400
Resonance means I want to hear you, to see you.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.920
And then I might realize maybe school is really not good for you.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:28.240
Yeah.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.640
Maybe it really is the right thing for you.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.079
I don't know what, right, uh to to to join a community or or do something other, right?
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.720
So this openness, this is why resonance always goes against the instrumental aims.
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.720
I would really say as soon as you have established a resonance axis, right?
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:46.400
It has its own logic.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.559
It kind of defines the the the the the neoliberal goals, you could say.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:51.599
That's so interesting.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:31:00.799
I I was just thinking of uh of a case in these mentorships that that I've felt that resonance was not there, but I would like to hear thoughts about it.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:06.720
So it was this Mincer who had a mentee, and when I met this Mincer, she was in a transition.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:13.279
She actually still had a relation to this mentee, but they were not like in a f you know in a mentorship.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:13.839
Yeah.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:23.519
But they still had a relation, and that's also an as interesting aspect about this is that the relationships sometimes continue, but in another like role form.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:44.880
But what I think was difficult for this minta is that she described that she obviously I I I kind of sense that she has this very rationalistic view, and and what is often the case with these mentees is that being vulnerable, having traumas, having a difficult life situation, they often like have difficulties navigating.
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:54.640
And so, what what a more rational person would be like, oh, you just have to do this, you just have to say to what it makes no sense in this world of them.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:00.240
So I mean I think perhaps this is just a case of not a good match.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:08.240
But what's interesting about this is that they actually continue to be in this relationship because that the mentor was really motivated to be a mentor.
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:16.000
Yeah, and I figured out in the conversation with with this mentor that that that the mentor actually cared a lot for the mentor.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:20.079
But she kind of realized that she was not able to help her mentor.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.000
So I think it's it's it's yeah, I just think it's really complex.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:27.359
Yeah, definitely.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.799
But I think when when I when I'm listening to that case, for example, right?
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:36.559
I think for the research project also, and maybe for for the organization also, it's very interesting.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.000
I really think you should have and that's something that would which would interest me.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.440
So hopefully we can cooperate on uh uh on this in the future, right?
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.119
What can you find out?
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.519
What are the criteria for the mentee to select a mentor?
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:49.920
Right?
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:54.400
What exactly is it that makes a mentor a good mentor for the mentee?
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:54.960
Right.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:00.799
And there I'm pretty sure that you will find it's not if the mentor knows exactly what's good for you, all right?
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:06.400
It's a I mean you find it it's even if you if you have a conversation with whatever it is with someone, right?
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:11.680
I really always thought there is there is a difference somewhere of this kind of open-mindedness.
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:13.920
Let's see where it takes us, right?
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.480
And others have they know what they want, right?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.880
It's kind of also only always measuring.
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.200
I know already what I think is good, and now let's see whether you agree or whether you don't agree.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.480
And I think what what I could imagine that mentees have two sets of criteria, possibly, right?
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.319
One is really looking for someone who has this kind of openness, right?
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:34.400
The other could actually be, I don't know, right?
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:38.000
But I could imagine since you also have people who are addicted, right?
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.519
And and maybe we shouldn't blame them for this, not for the addiction.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:45.680
But in that case, you might actually look for someone whom you can manipulate, right?
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.920
Maybe that's a selection criteria for them too, and that of course might create a problem, right?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.519
Someone you can kind of use to get the drugs or whatever it is, right?
00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:00.319
So I find so I find that very interesting to see because it's uh it's a uh you might have matching problems on both sides, of course.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:18.480
Speaking of both sides, um now I've I've only talked to the mentors, uh but we also have a possibility to talk to some to some mentees.
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:25.039
Uh from your perspective, what what would be what should we ask the these youth uh youths about these mentees?
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:35.599
Yeah, I I think I would really I think I would definitely ask them because they the mentees can choose the mentors, right?
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.800
Yeah, both parties can choose.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:46.400
But they they can choose, yeah, but uh they I would really I definitely ask them so why do why did you think that uh this person is interesting or is a good mentor, but also interesting for you, right?
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:56.559
And I think if if you if a if a mentee decides yes, I'd like to be uh mentored or be have in mentorship with them, I would definitely ask when when you think about resonance, that's what I always say.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:35:04.960
It's not just that mentor should care for the mentee, it has to be the other way around too, which means the mentee needs to have some form of intrinsic interest in the mentor, right?
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:06.800
And to find out what is it, right?
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.039
Why do you think this is an interesting person?
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:09.440
Right?
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.559
Why what I would ask, what do you like about the person?
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:14.960
But also what are you interested in?
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:18.480
But then of course, ask about the relationship.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:22.480
Do you like to be with him, or is it more like, oh, tomorrow I have to meet the mentor again?
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:25.679
And if it says no, I like to be with him, right?
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.159
I mean, it's so interesting to understand what it is, right?
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.039
So so so to say why do you like it?
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:34.719
But also do you do you feel that this it does something to you?
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:38.159
I mean, resonance theory claims that there's a transformation, right?
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:46.559
So I would really ask af after you have met or you've been together with a with a with a mentor, do you do you feel somehow transformed?
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.239
It's maybe a difficult concept, right?
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.440
Is there something different?
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.159
Do you feel differently or do you think differently, right?
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.920
Does that does it does he or she make a change in your life?
00:35:56.159 --> 00:36:02.400
And I I somehow also maybe it's quite interesting to talk about the the the temporal perspective, right?
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:06.800
Do you think that this mentorship somehow will have an effect in your life?
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.719
Is it something that was missing before?
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.760
Is it something that might be valuable for the future?
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.320
But uh probably not focus too much on the kind of on the outcome perspective, right?
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.199
Will him will he or she help you to get off the trucks or so?
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:20.639
It's probably not a useful question.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:22.239
Yes.
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:30.400
But I would I'd also like to ask so what we know from the evaluation there's been these evaluation reports of Binelud's effort.
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:42.000
Um and one really interesting aspect is that you know, as we talked about that Binelut goes out to these shelters where the homes are, they do this, they cobble up on activities.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:49.360
And one of the reports highlights that some kind of pre-mentorship uh they call it mentorship light.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.159
Like I mean, something is clearly happening here.
00:36:52.800 --> 00:37:07.840
So perhaps it would also be interesting to also hear your thoughts about asking the youths about what's happening, why are they um why do they transition from being very enclosed and in isolation and and towards this openness, what's actually happening.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:32.559
Perhaps we're talking about it on different levels because uh as the report mentions here that there are some kind of mentorship light, which could mean that there are good relations, but it just doesn't lead to a mentorship, but but something is happening and something good is also happening, but it's it's only for a in the situation, but uh but it can contribute to like this narrative that the the young person has and and so on.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:35.119
But perhaps that could also be an interesting aspect.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:36.880
Do you think that to ask to?
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:37.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.800
I mean you you can kind of follow also the whole sequence, right?
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:49.360
As there's might be kind of no relation, there might be a mentorship light, which is kind of more kind of situational resonance instead of kind of personal access, right?
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:59.119
I mean, I do distinguish between moments of resonance and uh resonance access, which actually means if you have a kind of a mentorship relationship for maybe a year or longer, right?
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.039
Then you're not in permanent resonance.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:05.039
There might be phases where you hate each other or you simply are indifferent or so, right?
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:10.559
So so I think the uh it's interesting to have the kind of the long-term perspective on the access.
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.760
How does that develop, but also on on the situational moments?
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:18.320
But I think because I you asked what what could we ask the young people, right?
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:27.760
I think I I would also I definitely also ask, what do you think do you think that the mentor has a genuine interest in you, right?
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:29.119
What does he see in you, right?
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:30.800
Does he like you or so?
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.159
Are they actually that that that would be a very interesting uh question too, right?
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:35.360
That's really true.
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:41.360
Another aspect is that these mentorships often uh what we've learned at least is that they move in between.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:46.639
I mean, clearly some of these youth has some patterns that they can they can fall back to.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:47.280
Yeah, of course.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:53.760
And so you speak about resonant uh access, resonant uh possibilities, uh situations.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:04.800
But what do you think about this kind of this that this is a relation where it can be really difficult both for a mentee but also for a mentee to be in this relationship?
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:10.400
We had as uh the director Rone mentioned yesterday that the longest is nine years.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:13.119
It's a nine-year-long mentorship with ups and downs.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:20.639
Yeah, so so the question is really how do you see resonance into that and the aspect of uncontrollability?
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:27.440
Um Yeah, I mean I mean I mean it uh uncontrollability of resonance actually means you don't know whether it happens, right?
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:34.159
You might have the best intentions and never get in resonance with them with any mentee or with the one mentee you you were supposed to get in.
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.360
Uh and uh number two, it means it's kind of open-ended.
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.719
You don't know where it leads to, right?
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:45.599
It might lead to where you're to a happy end, right, where the mente is kind of uh well and uh and healthy.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:49.119
But it also means uncontrollability, you don't know how long it lasts, right?
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:51.039
It will not last forever, probably, right?
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.559
So um so so it's open, uh right.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:59.920
And uh if it lasts for nine years, then it's pretty sure that the relationship will change, right?
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.760
It it won't be the same in the end, right?
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:12.800
Resonance is a kind of dynamic process, right, with permanent transformation, and it certainly will be interesting to see how it's try how the relationship is transforming, but how it's also transforming both sides, right?
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:19.840
If a mentor stays in a relationship for nine years, it will certainly not just have transformed the mentee, but himself too, right?
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:26.239
And and uh and so so it might it might it might happen, but it's um but but it's very unlikely, right?
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:28.800
Most mentorships uh are finishing earlier.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:29.599
Yeah.
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:56.880
Where I I mean I think your purpose with saying that is that one should kind of lose the idea of of like mastering some uh uh behaskels and mastering, uh controlling, yeah.
00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:02.639
Yeah, controlling exactly, but but you should never lose the kind of inclination to try.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:03.199
Yeah.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:13.039
And and then I I'm thinking in in in mentorships, I mean that you you should kind of have this perspective that it's it's always open, it's open-ended, unbounded relationship.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:30.719
You can you can expect to be changed, but you and you are inclined to try, yeah, but you cannot control, and you cannot inspect how it goes, and you also always always have to kind of have this empathic awareness of the other and like sensing what's going on and reflecting and and navigating in that.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:31.360
Yeah.
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:34.800
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it it it's really it's quite tough, right?
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:43.280
I I because I can imagine that if you're a mentor, you have the expectation and the will, certainly, and you might even feel the obligation to help, right?
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.800
And then maybe you fail.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:56.880
And then I I really think it's it's it's also important in how you it's really important probably to endure it to know if if if you accept that it's a kind of uncontrollable process, right?
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.719
Semi-controllability means I can reach out to the other, right?
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:05.199
I I I I I I there is a form of relationship, right?
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:10.159
But I cannot determine the outcome, right, and and whether it's going to be resonant or not, right?
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:15.360
So I think it's it's a bit like, you know, I I realized I once read a study which I found very interesting.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.519
It was about um voluntary work too.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:26.000
It was about voluntary workers in Africa helping in war-ridden where in areas where there were a lot of warlords around and so on, right?
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:34.719
So, of course, it's so frustrating because you have voluntary organizations who kind of build uh health centers or whatever it is, and then another warlord comes and destroys it, right?
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:40.159
So they really looked at who will stay the longest, who has the longest endurance, right?
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:49.280
And they found out in that sense it was people who were religiously motivated Christians in that sense, because they somehow accept it's not on them, right?
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.639
It it's in God's hands what what the outcome will be, right?
00:42:52.880 --> 00:43:05.199
So I so what I mean is kind of accepting the uncontrollability of life really also helps to uh to stay to sustain through phases where you feel you're moving backwards instead of forward, right.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.960
But I'd like uh to hear in the end what what do you think?
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:22.159
I mean, would you describe the relationships you observe, right, and you know about in uh Binelit?
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:29.039
Would you describe them as resonant relationships for both ends for mentors and mentees, or would you say this is very rare?
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:34.000
Most of the time it's more a kind of professional relation?
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:38.480
I think what's really interesting here is that we have some kind of paradoxes.
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:39.679
We call them dilemmas.
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.199
Perhaps it's better to call them dilemmas, it's even better ethical tensions.
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:43.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:59.599
This just shows that I had working work with 10 mentors, and the point here is that they they actually they realized during this course I did with them that that they also needed to keep, I mean, uh have like a healthy distance to what.
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:55.280
I think it's the extensive dimension, extension dimension really, which is at the core of this process, and that's what makes it so interesting.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:55.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:56.320
True.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:57.119
Yeah.
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:07.599
Hello and welcome to this unique podcast about the research project, the intuitive encounter.
00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:18.480
And welcome also to a rare and exploratory dialogue between Ruskilde University in Denmark.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:24.000
And Hartmut Rosa, I'm Professor of Sociology at the University of Jena in Germany.
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.079
I'm also directing the Max Weber Kolleg.
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.480
It's an institute for advanced study at the University of Erfurt.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:38.399
And I'm very interested in this project on mentorship because it's it's such an interesting case of human interaction.
00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:42.560
It opens it's opening up spheres of resonance, but also of kind of professional work.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:51.280
It comes, it it opens up existential questions and ethical questions, and of course, it opens up very interesting fields into social theory.
00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:59.280
So I'm very much looking forward to uh getting more insights in this project and having uh conversations on all the different aspects of it.
00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:22.240
I'm also directing the Max Weber Colleague, it's an institute for advanced study at the University of Erfurt.
00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:30.400
And I'm very interested in this project of uh on mentorship uh because it's it's such an interesting case of human interaction.
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:37.919
It opens up existential questions and ethical questions, and of course, it opens up very interesting fields into social theory.
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:45.680
So I'm very much looking forward to uh getting more insights in this project and having uh conversations on all the different aspects of it.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:52.879
I am a PhD student in this uh project about voluntary mentorship.
00:08:53.200 --> 00:09:00.320
And the title for my part of this research project is Good Mentoring in the Context of Social Vulnerability.
00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:14.960
And I investigate this from an existential and ethical angle, trying to look into these kind of ethical tensions that uh is certainly there when doing this kind of relational work with uh a mentor and a mentee in civil society.
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:32.399
My educational background is that I have a bachelor's degree from Roskell University in philosophy and theory of science, and also geography, and then I have a master's in philosophy of education from uh Aarhus University.
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:47.440
What I really hope in regards to this podcast and conversation with Habnun Rusa is that we really kind of elaborate on the aspects that we in initially in this project have been writing about resonance.
00:09:47.919 --> 00:10:00.960
We use resonance very broadly, and talking to Hablun Rusa, I think we kind of get a sense that we can be more specific as to how to incorporate it and how to use it in the research projects.
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:24.720
But I also really hope all these good talks with Hablon Rosa can can affect Ben a little and how they use it in their work and really can seep into their practices because I really see that there is a possibility here, and and I very much see that there are resonance and uncontrollability in all of these good concepts can be put into good use here.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.960
So I also we we we already touched upon this before.
00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.639
It relates to that discussion around empathy and resonance.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:51.600
So I work with uh Edi Stein's concepts of of empathy as a way of understanding how the other can appear as a subject whose experience can be approached but never persists.
00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:55.360
You could say, how would you distinguish empathy from resonance?
00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:57.840
Is empathy a condition for resonance?
00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:07.759
Is it a form of resonance, or does resonance begin only when the relation moves beyond understanding the other towards a transformation of one's relation to the world?
00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:12.159
Well, I I think it it depends a bit on how we define empathy, right?
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:16.559
I mean the different people do it in very different uh uh forms and ways.
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:24.159
But uh when you take uh Edith Stein's uh conception, for example, right, I I would say it's then it's an element of resonance, right?
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:25.759
This sense of empathy, right?
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:34.480
The openness, the the attempt to understand the other, to the the idea of establishing contact without having control over the other side.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:40.000
If there's a distinction, then I I think it's maybe more a distinction in emphasis.
00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:44.159
Because for me, resonance it has this kind of responsive move, right?
00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.320
It's a kind of mutual movement, right?
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.960
I try to respond, and then and that's where how transformation comes in, right?
00:11:51.039 --> 00:12:05.279
It kind of transforms the relationship and who we are, and there I think there's a certain difference in in uh um in emphasis, but I I don't I don't see any need to kind of artificially create deep uh distinctions between resonance and empathy.
00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:09.039
Okay, that's so interesting.
00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.240
So I I I would just say I think you're very right.
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:20.080
So I think that that that's really an aspect of resonance that can contribute to the aspect of empathy.
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:23.759
You can ask the question, did you feel alive in this situation?
00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:42.399
That's a really nice question, I think, because it's kind of highlights this dimension of also feeling touched by something, uh like having the sense, and not only perhaps just in a pure epistemological and ontological sense, like registering that some something is there, but also being really moved by it.
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:43.200
I really like it.
00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:44.799
Really in it, right?
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:50.240
I think the the moments in which we feel alive is the moments where we are really completely immersed in it, right?
00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:51.919
I feel so normally.
00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.320
I mean, if you're if if you're not alive, right?
00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.279
I I very often use the term alienation for that, right?
00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:03.440
Yeah, you really feel that you're somehow distanced, you observe something, you might be even interfering in it, right?
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:05.360
But you're not really in it, right?
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:10.639
This openness, which is a kind of you you could really I I think it's very interesting to think of it, right?
00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.600
Really like opening your whole being up to the other, right?
00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:20.320
And then it kinds of it gets a kind of um you could sometimes I call it term semi-permeability, right?
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.759
Between me and the other.
00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.600
It's a kind of it's it's this sense of connection which is aliveness, yeah.
00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:27.440
Okay, so interesting.
00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:51.679
So I would like to ask you another question: is is how can resonance theory help us distinguish between mentoring as the opening of a genuine resonance axis and uh where the young person can answer with their own voice and perhaps transform this relation to the world.
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:58.559
So that would be the one, and the other is uh and mentoring as a subtle form of adaptation to institutional expectations.
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:07.360
Social inclusion agendas or ideals of of what a good mentor should be, and or should like a responsible young young person.
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.360
Yeah, I mean the I think the question is whether these two go together, right?
00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:18.559
I mean, the the the the openness in in the encounter and the sense of helping and nudging in a certain direction, right?
00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:27.200
Uh but I but I do think it's possible that they go together because I mean you know when you kind of really open up to someone, right?
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:31.279
And you I think a requirement for good mentorship and for resonance, right?
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.200
Is a kind of in in in the resonance book I call it intrinsic interest.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.600
I really must be interested in you, right?
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:46.159
And if I'm really interested, I mean if you were the mentee, right, in in the other uh person, but actually it's it's even mutual, also the mentee needs to be interested in the mentor, right?
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.320
He hear what he or she has what what their experiences are, right?
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:51.919
I think the mentorship really works.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.120
It's kind of both sides.
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:59.200
We should not think of it always in the sense of, oh, the mentor has a kind of task with the mentee, right?
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.240
It only works if the mentee is also interested in this mentor.
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.080
What kind of person is he, right?
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:05.519
What's his experiences?
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.080
I really also think of the age difference there, right?
00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:13.679
So it only works if the m if also the mentee opens up and has a genuine interest in the other person.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:14.480
Who is it?
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:15.759
Why is he saying this?
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:19.039
And certainly might be a bit strange in one way or the other.
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:20.559
Everyone is a bit strange, right?
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:20.879
Yeah.
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.279
So it has this kind of mutual opening up.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.960
But then then I I think it so the one thing is in is the interest.
00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:28.559
I'm I'm interested in you, right?
00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:36.000
But the other thing is if you have an resonant relationship, you want the other uh to to thrive, to be well, right?
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.440
And of course we have certain ideas what it means to be well, right?
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.080
I could even say to be yourself, right?
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:45.840
I I mean it's it's really like in friendship or even in love, right?
00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.759
You want the other person to be to be shining, you could say, right?
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:55.600
And of course, then you know, well, if for you to thrive, let's say if I'm the mentor and the other person is the mentee, right?
00:15:55.759 --> 00:16:03.440
I think it it would then I somehow feel that it would be good if you were not abusing alcohol or or heroin or whatever it is every day, right?
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.440
Or it might be good for you to go to school, right?
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.879
Then it's not because I have a kind of professional idea of what you should do.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:13.840
Whenever I have an idea of what you that's paternalism, right?
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.480
Paternalism is really the problem in the mentorship.
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:18.159
I think I know what's good for you.
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:19.919
Now let's see how we get you there.
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.759
But that's not a resonant relationship, it's not even a good mentorship, it won't, it won't work.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:44.000
Yeah, so also I mean I I think that's what what I have also met in these mentorships is that I mean, especially between you know, for instance, the these uh youth, young people, and if they have a mentor, like very quickly uh it can become this kind of paternalistic uh maternalistic relationship.
00:16:44.879 --> 00:17:08.640
Yeah, because for instance, if if there's a young mentee who kind of is um I think we we had one actually saying that uh because he had an older uh female mentee and and it was really kind of the significance of her to him was that uh he didn't want a pedagogue that was really important for him, but he also kind of didn't want a mother, yeah.
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:18.799
But uh felt like he kind of in like was conflicted between that because he also like he perhaps he had some kind of problems with his own mother or something.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:28.160
So he has but but he also needed a friend, and I think it's this complexity in a relationship that they don't really know what they want perhaps, but they in it's very situational in a sense.
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.720
But but that's but that's the thing with the uncontrollability, right?
00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:32.960
I mean, a problem for the organization, right?
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.480
I really think I find this project really interesting, right?
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:42.000
Also from a sociological uh uh standpoint, because it's it's a bit as as you just indicated, right?
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.440
I think there are four roles which are not clearly defined, right?
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:47.839
One is the mentor as a kind of parent.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.319
It clearly has a kind of this uh this function, right?
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.680
But then the other is the teacher, right, who shows you what it is.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.640
The third is a kind of professional social worker, right?
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.559
And the fourth is friendship, right?
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:03.119
And it moves exactly in this, it's it moves in the interspace between these things.
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:09.839
I I could actually think that sometimes it's more like a parent, sometimes it's more like a teacher, sometimes it's like a friend, right?
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:17.359
So it's and I think you cannot define it what how you should do it, and you could not say it's 20% of this or for 50% of the other.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:23.920
So a relation, every relationship has a kind of its own logic, and it's very important to bring out this own logic.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.599
Of course, of course, then it's a question of balancing.
00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:32.319
You have to keep in mind that you're not simply the friend of this other person, right?
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:40.240
There is a kind of um almost professional distance which you and but also of age difference or experience difference which you have to uh to value.
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.359
But it is this kind of sorting it out.
00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:45.599
But but I still have this hope.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:56.400
You know, one should not let as soon as you let uh override what what you do by reflection on oh, am I now doing what the mother does, or is I am now I do am I now too much of a teacher or so?
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.799
Then you're at least for that moment you're out of the resonant relationship, right?
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:09.680
It's really completely opening up to, you know, this is why I've been working so much in the last um couple of months, at least or more years, on situational justice.
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.960
Do what is required in this situation, right?
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:23.279
Let's say you have the mentorship program, right, and the mentor and the mentee are together, then it it particularly for the mentor, it really depends on what is the right thing to do in the situation.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:25.680
What does the situation require right now?
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:30.720
That's different from uh reflecting on what does my role require or the organization require.
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:36.240
Yeah, it's funny you say that with situational justice because I've I've thought it from the angle of situational ethics.
00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:41.839
What is right to do, uh but perhaps that's more from an outside perspective.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.680
No, but yeah, but I think probably the difference there is small, right?
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:47.440
You could call it situational ethics.
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:57.359
But I think also you're right that it it it this kind of relationship, what is characteristic of them, and you as you say we have to kind of look at their own logic.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:01.920
I think that's very much the situational element that you really have to look close.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:16.880
That's one question.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:26.640
And how do you think that we as a researcher, what what can we use as tools perhaps for kind of clarifying these logics, internal logics?
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:32.079
Well, I think as a researcher, the main time, and that's fascinating, that's why I like the research project, right?
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.240
Is it in the first place not to know what to do because it's not interfering, right?
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:37.440
But to really analyze it.
00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:39.119
I I find that really interesting, right?
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:40.559
To see what's going on.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.880
And actually, I don't know what you will find.
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:56.559
I mean, I could assume that you might find a kind of gradual movement from a more kind of uh let's call it paternalistic or the meta or metanalistic way to more friendship relationship, but maybe that's not true.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.720
I mean, it might also go the other way around.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:05.119
You enter very naively in the sense of making friends or so, and then you realize, oh no, here it's uh I have a different role.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:12.640
I'd rather need to be so I think observe the dynamics and the dialectics, and maybe you find a kind of permanent movement or shift, right?
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:20.319
So I think it's really important to see and to really, I would kind of uh suggest a kind of symmetrical perspective on both sides.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:23.759
It's not one person needing help and the other being the helper, right?
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:25.920
It's really two people meeting each other.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:37.359
In the in the in the conversation with Lotte, we already talked about this, that people engage in voluntary work also, maybe even because of a need, but uh but a human need as human beings.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:40.319
I mean, loneliness is such a huge problem in society, right?
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.519
And people want to I I I th I find this so important.
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:50.640
People really have a deep yearning, whether they know it or not, to be kind of good persons and to good to do good things, right?
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:55.359
So it's it's kind of I I I would really say the relationship is kind of symmetrical.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.519
You have two human beings meeting, right?
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.759
So I think for the research, really observe.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.319
How what it does to the two, right?
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:06.400
Resonance says it transformed both of them and it transformed the relationship.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.200
So I found this is the most fascinating research field.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:13.440
For the organization, of course, it's that's pretty tricky, right?
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:20.559
I mean, because of course you have to get funding and you get it when you can prove that something beneficial comes out of it.
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:27.759
And of course, you have kind of legal responsibilities that the mentor does not engage in criminal actions or whatever it is, right?
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:34.960
So so I think the organization can just kind of try, of course, set frameworks and make them as wide as possible.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.559
Keep open the sense of what you call situational ethics.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:40.000
What does the situation require?
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:41.759
I think one can train that a bit.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:49.359
And it's in and in particular, I I really think the good thing about we talked about pedagogy earlier in the other conversation with Lotte.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:54.960
The good thing for the pedagogue is really not to be too fixed on goals, right?
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.359
I mean, I think if a mentor goes into the mentorship and the thing, okay, I have three goals.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:03.519
I want this person to have a home after a year and to have a job and to have friends.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:05.680
This is not how it works, right?
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:11.440
It's a uh so you should be focused on the dynamics of the relationship, not of the output.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.880
You know, in my terms, I would say it's not an input-output question.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:15.599
What do I put in?
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:16.799
What do we get out of it?
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:18.000
It's a throughput.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:19.759
What's happening in between?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:36.079
I mean, you're touching upon something here that's really, I think, definitional, or what is it called, towards these kind of mentorships, and I think that's why we also got the the money for investigating this, because it's uh the title of our project was The Intuitive Encounter.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:36.400
Yeah.
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:55.440
What I've been doing is I've been looking into the literature of mentorships, and um one aspect of it is that especially in the industry sector and the educational sector, there's this kind of managerial discourse around mentorships as the kind of input-output goal oriented, very transactional.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:06.319
And it makes sense because you're when you go into higher education, go into a workplace, that you you kind of you need to be to get onboarded into some kind of processes and so on.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.960
And and and it's really interesting and fascinating.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:18.079
And but the funny thing is that that it it has shown that these mentorships, these relationships are quite uh effective for doing this kind of thing.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.960
So yeah, but that's that's but but they all that's one side of it.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:37.119
The other side is that that they can also be used as this uh Helen Colley who wrote a very famous uh book about mentorships, in in which she also uh criticizes mentorships for being used for like neoliberal per purposes.
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.279
And I think that's also has happened in in Denmark and has happened several places.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:53.839
But her case is uh the UK in the 90s, and how I mean the social reforms uh kind of adopted this approach towards mentoring, that mentoring could be a social intervention, getting your youth off the streets.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:04.319
And I think that very much has this kind of goal, very goal-oriented, and perhaps like so we I mean that's that's the um uh I understand, yeah.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:11.039
Yeah, I think that's the kind of the the logic that uh the organization is also operating in this field.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:12.559
Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:18.720
And then you get into tensions, but I think I and that's a pro that's something I I with the resonance project, right?
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:32.319
And theory, I always also have uh the this problem that people would actually say it's kind of you can use it, instrumentalize it, for example, uh have your a more successful company, right, through um or more successful management by creating resonance or so.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.640
But but I think well, I I really I I do have a view on this.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.680
I mean, I would really say if it's good for the youth, right, then it's good per se, right?
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.880
Whether that's also in accordance with neoliberal goals or not, actually I would almost say I don't care, right?
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:54.079
But my hope is, and I'm pretty sure wherever you establish such relationships, it has a kind of transgressive power, right?
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:00.720
Because then people really have the experience it's possible to be to be in a relationship which has the end in itself, right?
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:08.079
Because in the program, the mentor and the mentee are not thinking of somehow satisfying uh neoliberal requirements.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:12.880
And and they are in this experience and in this relationship, there's a kind of transgressive power.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:19.519
Let's kind of do away with institutional structures and requirements, which kind of prevent us from having this kind of relationship.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:27.039
I mean, and the other thing is when you try to instrumentalize it, right, you s you quickly reach the you you hit ceilings, right?
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.599
Because of course the growth logic then hits in, right?
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:34.559
Is you somehow do a kind of evaluation process, which mentoring program is working better, right?
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:37.200
And then you try to increase the efficiency, right?
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.559
And I think, and then you quickly see that it doesn't work anymore, right?
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.079
Because that's the what I call the uncontrollability of resonance, right?
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:45.839
Because it has a kind of proper logic.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.680
It's a bit, I really find very interesting this thing about falling asleep.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.240
I mean, you know, I I really would say it's the same with sleep a bit, right?
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:56.160
We know that sleep is good for us, right?
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.519
Everyone knows I have to sleep.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.759
Sleep is good for your brain, it's good for your health, it's good for your social relationship, for your skin, for your hair, for everything, right?
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.759
So, but the fact that you know that it's good doesn't help you to fall asleep, right?
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:15.440
And the more you want to kind of make that efficient, I have to fall asleep in 10 minutes or so, the less you will be successful, right?
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.200
Sleep is a kind of side effect.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.279
So I think it's a bit like with this mentorship program.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.079
Yes, it might have beneficial side effects.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:47.519
These youth people, what they kind of put into question is I think like so, for instance, very low practical aspect is that the mentor uh meets a mentee, and the mentee like really just want to be together with the mentor but not do anything.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:52.319
And we kind of see this there's no progression in the relationship, they just need someone to be with.
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:52.799
Yeah.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:28:00.720
And it can be perhaps be so the question arises but what what to what is the purpose of this in a sense, uh in in a long term, a bigger perspective?
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.759
What is the purpose of this social mentorship?
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.359
Is it just to be together with no purpose?
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:22.079
Because I mean that's the the organization is th uh living on good results that that something is happening but at the same time they are establishing these uh like non-purposeful relationships.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.480
So we have this kind of paradox.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.960
One could say that, but it's like a it's like intention in that.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:43.359
And that that leads to my question, actually, because do you think that that I mean these kind of existential tensions in a sense could that be also challenging like resonance theory or some other like uncontrollability aspects?
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:52.319
Well, I mean, I I really I I have this hope that's I always used Leonard Cohn's phrase, there's a crack in everything, right?
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:53.440
That's how the light gets in.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.880
And I would really say you see this in kind of in resonant relationships.
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.599
There are the cracks which also have the power to transform society, at least that's my hope, right?
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.039
I I I somehow want to go for a revolution of a of the system, right?
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.839
But I think we have to start with enabling creating spaces for this relationship.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.359
Maybe we can somehow solve the paradox, right?
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:19.039
Because I would say on the one hand, you can prove, I think, right, you could empirically prove it's like with sleep, right?
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:21.599
Sleep has good effects.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.640
And I think I really think you could say the same, and you could probably prove it with a resonant relationship, right?
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:36.240
So if young people in particular, but it's true for everyone, but let's say for young people, if they develop an axis of resonance with another person, it will have beneficial side effects.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.960
I think this is probably easy to prove, right?
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:49.359
It is the likelihood that they get a job, that they get a home, that they get they get off drugs clearly increases if they establish, I would say, an axis of resonance with someone, right?
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:58.799
But now the thing is if you enter in such a mentorship program, right, then of course you might have the kind of the neoliberal idea, okay, after one year the person should be in education, right?
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:04.079
So now the two the mentor and the mentee enter into a kind of resonant relationship.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:09.839
And at first maybe the mentor thinks I have to bring this kid in in school or in education, whatever it is, right?
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:14.960
But then if there's real resonance, it means I'm not instrumentalizing it.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.480
You know, that would be Pythonalism is really un un-resonant.
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:19.759
I want you to go to school.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:21.279
That has nothing to do with resonance.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.400
Resonance means I want to hear you, to see you.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.920
And then I might realize maybe school is really not good for you.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:28.240
Yeah.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.640
Maybe it really is the right thing for you.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.079
I don't know what, right, uh to to to join a community or or do something other, right?
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.720
So this openness, this is why resonance always goes against the instrumental aims.
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.720
I would really say as soon as you have established a resonance axis, right?
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:46.400
It has its own logic.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.559
It kind of defines the the the the the neoliberal goals, you could say.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:51.599
That's so interesting.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:31:00.799
I I was just thinking of uh of a case in these mentorships that that I've felt that resonance was not there, but I would like to hear thoughts about it.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:06.720
So it was this Mincer who had a mentee, and when I met this Mincer, she was in a transition.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:13.279
She actually still had a relation to this mentee, but they were not like in a f you know in a mentorship.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:13.839
Yeah.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:23.519
But they still had a relation, and that's also an as interesting aspect about this is that the relationships sometimes continue, but in another like role form.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:44.880
But what I think was difficult for this minta is that she described that she obviously I I I kind of sense that she has this very rationalistic view, and and what is often the case with these mentees is that being vulnerable, having traumas, having a difficult life situation, they often like have difficulties navigating.
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:54.640
And so, what what a more rational person would be like, oh, you just have to do this, you just have to say to what it makes no sense in this world of them.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:00.240
So I mean I think perhaps this is just a case of not a good match.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:08.240
But what's interesting about this is that they actually continue to be in this relationship because that the mentor was really motivated to be a mentor.
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:16.000
Yeah, and I figured out in the conversation with with this mentor that that that the mentor actually cared a lot for the mentor.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:20.079
But she kind of realized that she was not able to help her mentor.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.000
So I think it's it's it's yeah, I just think it's really complex.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:27.359
Yeah, definitely.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.799
But I think when when I when I'm listening to that case, for example, right?
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:36.559
I think for the research project also, and maybe for for the organization also, it's very interesting.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.000
I really think you should have and that's something that would which would interest me.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.440
So hopefully we can cooperate on uh uh on this in the future, right?
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.119
What can you find out?
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.519
What are the criteria for the mentee to select a mentor?
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:49.920
Right?
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:54.400
What exactly is it that makes a mentor a good mentor for the mentee?
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:54.960
Right.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:00.799
And there I'm pretty sure that you will find it's not if the mentor knows exactly what's good for you, all right?
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:06.400
It's a I mean you find it it's even if you if you have a conversation with whatever it is with someone, right?
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:11.680
I really always thought there is there is a difference somewhere of this kind of open-mindedness.
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:13.920
Let's see where it takes us, right?
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.480
And others have they know what they want, right?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.880
It's kind of also only always measuring.
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.200
I know already what I think is good, and now let's see whether you agree or whether you don't agree.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.480
And I think what what I could imagine that mentees have two sets of criteria, possibly, right?
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.319
One is really looking for someone who has this kind of openness, right?
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:34.400
The other could actually be, I don't know, right?
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:38.000
But I could imagine since you also have people who are addicted, right?
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.519
And and maybe we shouldn't blame them for this, not for the addiction.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:45.680
But in that case, you might actually look for someone whom you can manipulate, right?
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.920
Maybe that's a selection criteria for them too, and that of course might create a problem, right?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.519
Someone you can kind of use to get the drugs or whatever it is, right?
00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:00.319
So I find so I find that very interesting to see because it's uh it's a uh you might have matching problems on both sides, of course.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:18.480
Speaking of both sides, um now I've I've only talked to the mentors, uh but we also have a possibility to talk to some to some mentees.
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:25.039
Uh from your perspective, what what would be what should we ask the these youth uh youths about these mentees?
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:35.599
Yeah, I I think I would really I think I would definitely ask them because they the mentees can choose the mentors, right?
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.800
Yeah, both parties can choose.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:46.400
But they they can choose, yeah, but uh they I would really I definitely ask them so why do why did you think that uh this person is interesting or is a good mentor, but also interesting for you, right?
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:56.559
And I think if if you if a if a mentee decides yes, I'd like to be uh mentored or be have in mentorship with them, I would definitely ask when when you think about resonance, that's what I always say.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:35:04.960
It's not just that mentor should care for the mentee, it has to be the other way around too, which means the mentee needs to have some form of intrinsic interest in the mentor, right?
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:06.800
And to find out what is it, right?
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.039
Why do you think this is an interesting person?
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:09.440
Right?
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.559
Why what I would ask, what do you like about the person?
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:14.960
But also what are you interested in?
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:18.480
But then of course, ask about the relationship.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:22.480
Do you like to be with him, or is it more like, oh, tomorrow I have to meet the mentor again?
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:25.679
And if it says no, I like to be with him, right?
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.159
I mean, it's so interesting to understand what it is, right?
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.039
So so so to say why do you like it?
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:34.719
But also do you do you feel that this it does something to you?
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:38.159
I mean, resonance theory claims that there's a transformation, right?
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:46.559
So I would really ask af after you have met or you've been together with a with a with a mentor, do you do you feel somehow transformed?
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.239
It's maybe a difficult concept, right?
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.440
Is there something different?
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.159
Do you feel differently or do you think differently, right?
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.920
Does that does it does he or she make a change in your life?
00:35:56.159 --> 00:36:02.400
And I I somehow also maybe it's quite interesting to talk about the the the temporal perspective, right?
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:06.800
Do you think that this mentorship somehow will have an effect in your life?
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.719
Is it something that was missing before?
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.760
Is it something that might be valuable for the future?
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.320
But uh probably not focus too much on the kind of on the outcome perspective, right?
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.199
Will him will he or she help you to get off the trucks or so?
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:20.639
It's probably not a useful question.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:22.239
Yes.
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:30.400
But I would I'd also like to ask so what we know from the evaluation there's been these evaluation reports of Binelud's effort.
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:42.000
Um and one really interesting aspect is that you know, as we talked about that Binelut goes out to these shelters where the homes are, they do this, they cobble up on activities.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:49.360
And one of the reports highlights that some kind of pre-mentorship uh they call it mentorship light.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.159
Like I mean, something is clearly happening here.
00:36:52.800 --> 00:37:07.840
So perhaps it would also be interesting to also hear your thoughts about asking the youths about what's happening, why are they um why do they transition from being very enclosed and in isolation and and towards this openness, what's actually happening.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:32.559
Perhaps we're talking about it on different levels because uh as the report mentions here that there are some kind of mentorship light, which could mean that there are good relations, but it just doesn't lead to a mentorship, but but something is happening and something good is also happening, but it's it's only for a in the situation, but uh but it can contribute to like this narrative that the the young person has and and so on.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:35.119
But perhaps that could also be an interesting aspect.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:36.880
Do you think that to ask to?
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:37.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.800
I mean you you can kind of follow also the whole sequence, right?
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:49.360
As there's might be kind of no relation, there might be a mentorship light, which is kind of more kind of situational resonance instead of kind of personal access, right?
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:59.119
I mean, I do distinguish between moments of resonance and uh resonance access, which actually means if you have a kind of a mentorship relationship for maybe a year or longer, right?
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.039
Then you're not in permanent resonance.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:05.039
There might be phases where you hate each other or you simply are indifferent or so, right?
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:10.559
So so I think the uh it's interesting to have the kind of the long-term perspective on the access.
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.760
How does that develop, but also on on the situational moments?
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:18.320
But I think because I you asked what what could we ask the young people, right?
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:27.760
I think I I would also I definitely also ask, what do you think do you think that the mentor has a genuine interest in you, right?
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:29.119
What does he see in you, right?
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:30.800
Does he like you or so?
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.159
Are they actually that that that would be a very interesting uh question too, right?
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:35.360
That's really true.
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:41.360
Another aspect is that these mentorships often uh what we've learned at least is that they move in between.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:46.639
I mean, clearly some of these youth has some patterns that they can they can fall back to.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:47.280
Yeah, of course.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:53.760
And so you speak about resonant uh access, resonant uh possibilities, uh situations.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:04.800
But what do you think about this kind of this that this is a relation where it can be really difficult both for a mentee but also for a mentee to be in this relationship?
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:10.400
We had as uh the director Rone mentioned yesterday that the longest is nine years.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:13.119
It's a nine-year-long mentorship with ups and downs.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:20.639
Yeah, so so the question is really how do you see resonance into that and the aspect of uncontrollability?
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:27.440
Um Yeah, I mean I mean I mean it uh uncontrollability of resonance actually means you don't know whether it happens, right?
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:34.159
You might have the best intentions and never get in resonance with them with any mentee or with the one mentee you you were supposed to get in.
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.360
Uh and uh number two, it means it's kind of open-ended.
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.719
You don't know where it leads to, right?
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:45.599
It might lead to where you're to a happy end, right, where the mente is kind of uh well and uh and healthy.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:49.119
But it also means uncontrollability, you don't know how long it lasts, right?
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:51.039
It will not last forever, probably, right?
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.559
So um so so it's open, uh right.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:59.920
And uh if it lasts for nine years, then it's pretty sure that the relationship will change, right?
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.760
It it won't be the same in the end, right?
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:12.800
Resonance is a kind of dynamic process, right, with permanent transformation, and it certainly will be interesting to see how it's try how the relationship is transforming, but how it's also transforming both sides, right?
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:19.840
If a mentor stays in a relationship for nine years, it will certainly not just have transformed the mentee, but himself too, right?
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:26.239
And and uh and so so it might it might it might happen, but it's um but but it's very unlikely, right?
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:28.800
Most mentorships uh are finishing earlier.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:29.599
Yeah.
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:56.880
Where I I mean I think your purpose with saying that is that one should kind of lose the idea of of like mastering some uh uh behaskels and mastering, uh controlling, yeah.
00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:02.639
Yeah, controlling exactly, but but you should never lose the kind of inclination to try.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:03.199
Yeah.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:13.039
And and then I I'm thinking in in in mentorships, I mean that you you should kind of have this perspective that it's it's always open, it's open-ended, unbounded relationship.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:30.719
You can you can expect to be changed, but you and you are inclined to try, yeah, but you cannot control, and you cannot inspect how it goes, and you also always always have to kind of have this empathic awareness of the other and like sensing what's going on and reflecting and and navigating in that.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:31.360
Yeah.
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:34.800
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it it it's really it's quite tough, right?
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:43.280
I I because I can imagine that if you're a mentor, you have the expectation and the will, certainly, and you might even feel the obligation to help, right?
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.800
And then maybe you fail.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:56.880
And then I I really think it's it's it's also important in how you it's really important probably to endure it to know if if if you accept that it's a kind of uncontrollable process, right?
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.719
Semi-controllability means I can reach out to the other, right?
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:05.199
I I I I I I there is a form of relationship, right?
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:10.159
But I cannot determine the outcome, right, and and whether it's going to be resonant or not, right?
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:15.360
So I think it's it's a bit like, you know, I I realized I once read a study which I found very interesting.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.519
It was about um voluntary work too.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:26.000
It was about voluntary workers in Africa helping in war-ridden where in areas where there were a lot of warlords around and so on, right?
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:34.719
So, of course, it's so frustrating because you have voluntary organizations who kind of build uh health centers or whatever it is, and then another warlord comes and destroys it, right?
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:40.159
So they really looked at who will stay the longest, who has the longest endurance, right?
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:49.280
And they found out in that sense it was people who were religiously motivated Christians in that sense, because they somehow accept it's not on them, right?
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.639
It it's in God's hands what what the outcome will be, right?
00:42:52.880 --> 00:43:05.199
So I so what I mean is kind of accepting the uncontrollability of life really also helps to uh to stay to sustain through phases where you feel you're moving backwards instead of forward, right.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.960
But I'd like uh to hear in the end what what do you think?
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:22.159
I mean, would you describe the relationships you observe, right, and you know about in uh Binelit?
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:29.039
Would you describe them as resonant relationships for both ends for mentors and mentees, or would you say this is very rare?
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:34.000
Most of the time it's more a kind of professional relation?
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:38.480
I think what's really interesting here is that we have some kind of paradoxes.
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:39.679
We call them dilemmas.
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.199
Perhaps it's better to call them dilemmas, it's even better ethical tensions.
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:43.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:59.599
This just shows that I had working work with 10 mentors, and the point here is that they they actually they realized during this course I did with them that that they also needed to keep, I mean, uh have like a healthy distance to what.
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:55.280
I think it's the extensive dimension, extension dimension really, which is at the core of this process, and that's what makes it so interesting.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:55.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:56.320
True.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:57.119
Yeah.
