Block and Brace Yourself

WEBVTT
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Thanks very much for joining us on this edition of the Intermodal Logistics Podcast.
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I'm Kevin Baxter with my co-host today, InTech Logistics, President Shelly Austin.
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Hi, Shelly.
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And on this episode, we are talking about uh something quite key to a good intermodal shipping experience.
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Sometimes it's complex, sometimes it can be relatively simple, but uh it depends on the situation.
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It's proper packing, blocking, and bracing.
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And uh to take us through the subject, we welcome Kelsey Evan, manager of closed car loading rules with MXV Rail.
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Kelsey, thanks very much for joining us.
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Thank you guys for having me on.
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So, first off, we always like to start with a little autobiography of uh of our guests.
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So uh tell us a little bit about your your background in logistics and uh and what you're doing now with MXV.
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Yeah, so I do come from um a pretty wide range of logistical backgrounds.
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Uh my degree is in uh supply chain management, um, and I have worked in big box distribution as well as for manufacturing companies.
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Um, and now uh I work for the rail carrier industry.
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And so um for those unfamiliar, MXV, MXV is not exactly a railroad per se.
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Tell us a little bit about what it is and its relationship with AAR.
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Yeah, so MXV Rail, we're the rail industry's um premier research, testing, and training organizations.
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Um, and we support the railroads, um, their suppliers and their partners by working on complex technical challenges and help advancing safety and reliability and performance for the rail industry.
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We are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Association of American Railroads, which means we are industry supported and we work on behalf of North America's freight railroads as a collective, um not just for any one single company.
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Um our roots really go back more than 40 years.
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We've been out here working in Pueblo, Colorado, um, and we continue our mission to bring the same expertise, infrastructure, and industry collaboration that still serves the entire rail industry.
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So um because you're working with everyone, and the the role that you have is obviously something that they all need to need to deal with.
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The the shippers need to think about, the uh the railroads need to think about.
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Uh so tell us more about your your team, the the damage control and uh prevention team.
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Yeah, so um again, I work for uh MXC Rail, and then under that is damage prevention and loading services, which is part of our technical standards group.
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Um and what damage prevention and loading services does is we work um to help test and um document the safe transportation of all freight by rail.
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Um and so that includes um boxcar shipments, open top shipments, um, automobile, and then as well as intermodal um shipments for both containers and trailers.
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Um so we work with all the railroads again to ensure that freight can be standardized for how it's loaded to move smoothly through interchange through multiple rail carriers.
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So when there's oh go ahead.
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Yeah.
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I was gonna say I civically um as the manager for closed car loading rules work on boxcar and intermodal um ship and um and load securement.
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Okay.
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So so as a 3PL, it's very important for us, um, or an IMC, whichever name we want to call ourselves at that point in time.
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Um it's very important for us to to educate and and work with our shippers to make sure that they're blocking and bracing appropriately.
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And a lot of times we're very fortunate to be able to use our partners at the railroad, their quality groups, to be able to provide loading diagrams, provide all this information.
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So what's interesting is you know, there's always that um statement of the the this kind of securement device is not AAR approved, or this is not so it does all of that um approved and the devices and those things roll up through you guys to test it and then approve something that works?
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Yes.
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So um, when there is a new loading pattern or securement method or a pre-existing one, um that does mean they all have been um either tested or verified, um, and they are reviewed by the rail carriers, and then they are approved to be documented in the available loading guides that are available for intermodal and containers.
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And there's two documents out there that we always reference.
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One is Circular 43, um, which is the rules governing the loading of containers and trailer for intermodal service, um, and then the intermodal loading guide, um, which is where all of those patterns and load securement methods are documented.
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So, yeah, when um companies are saying, well, is it AER approved or AER tested?
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Um, we really want to show that it is documented in the AER loading guide.
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And it just means it has been um tested to kind of an industry standard.
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Um, so it levels out and makes sure that everything has kind of been tested the same way to the same level, and we can kind of know what to expect when it's being used to secure freight on rail.
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Okay.
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So, how do you go about uh the testing process then?
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Yeah, so there's um different things that can be done based on um what the commodity is or what the securement method is.
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Um, but kind of the starting spot is most things go through impact testing, which is where a fully loaded intermodal container or trailer is loaded with the correct commodity to the weight that it's going to be shipped with.
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That securement method is loaded or applied the way that it would be during normal transportation, and then we put it through a series of switching events, um, which cause impact or shock shock to occur.
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Um, and that will kind of test what is the limit of that securement unit.
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Um, other things that can be done is field testing, um, or out here at our site, we can do on-track testing where again we load everything up to the way it's going to be shipped on a normal day-to-day basis, and then we monitor it to make sure that it performs as expected.
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For field trials, that means they have to travel more than 500 miles, um, and they are checked at both origin and destination.
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And between about 15 to 25 of those have to be monitored before they can be reviewed.
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And uh is there, so it's is it truck and uh rail that you're testing with those containers?
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Um specifically, are really only looking at the rail aspect of it, um, but mostly for intermodal, there is usually going to be dryage um as part of that.
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Um, but we're really just monitoring for the for the rail side of it.
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So how do you uh because there's so many different commodities and there's so many different ways to that people think that is the proper way to block and brace.
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And you do a lot of the testing on site, which sounds very cool.
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It sounds like um, you know, those those shows that have the uh the the all these little fake towns, and you do all the testing and everything.
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It sounds pretty cool.
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Um Do you have a fake town?
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We do not have a fake town, but I do have uh lots of tracks and equipment.
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Nice, nice.
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It sounds pretty cool.
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Um but so it like there's just I mean, there's machinery, there's all this different, these different types of commodities that people ship on closed container intermodal shipments and and and carload.
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Um so how do you get all access to all of that?
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I mean, do your does your team travel to certain places and test in certain places if they don't have access to the commodity to test it there?
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Yeah, so it it does depend on what the commodity is.
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Um if it is uh we do have kind of general freight that we can use, like a standard palletized kind of um freight that you could use for a lot of testing.
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Um, same thing like standard uh drums or IBCs that you could use for a lot of testing.
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Um but anything that's like more specialized, uh, we either have to work with a shipper to have their freight sent out to us, um, usually trucked in, um, or we can go out to either a rail yard or a customer's facility to do testing as well.
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But that is um a big part of when we're working through testing is um how do we test it safely.
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So um, you know, a lot of times we test with water or maybe like a more benign substance than maybe what the actual commodity is going to be, because we want to make sure the load securement is working correctly before we would test it with the real commodity.
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Um, or we could use some sort of like representative weight um to so we're getting the right mass and the right um center of gravity, but we're not testing, especially with like a high dollar commodity, we're not testing with that actual commodity to start with.
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But there are can be some tricky ones where you have to test with just that.
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There's no kind of way around it.
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Any any example of one that you think was uh was especially tricky?
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Um one was it's actually uh was a commodity that was denser or heavier than water, um, but not necessarily a commodity we wanted it to test it.
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So we actually um did have to kind of talk through like how could we add um density to the shipping unit, but still leave it like in a liquid um shape.
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So um I can't really share the results of that test, but uh yeah, that was one we had to talk through.
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Uh well, so backing up before we get get more specific.
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So um and and and you talked about like when you're testing for intermodal, you're still basically testing the rail part more than anything.
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So why is it different for for folks to uh if somebody's unfamiliar with with intermodal, uh how the blocking and bracing works and why is it needed differently for for intermodal than it is if you just stick something on a truck?
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Yeah, um, it just all comes down to different forces that um you're gonna experience on the rail part of the journey.
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Um, an intermodal is definitely very um challenging for a shipper because you know they could be starting on an ocean leg and then have an over-the-road leg and have a rail leg.
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So they really have to work on all um parts of that load securement to make sure that they're prepared for all of the transit that's gonna occur with that freight.
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But for rail cephically, we have two kind of important things that can occur.
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Um, we do have rail vibration or like a harmonic vibration.
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Um, so it's gonna be experiencing quite a lot of um kind of like a shake.
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Um, that vibration does occur naturally due to the steel wheels and the steel rail.
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Um, some freight responds really well to that vibration and really kind of gets an extra shake to it, where other freight does not respond to that.
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And that kind of all is dependent on the packaging and the freight and how it resonates and in itself.
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Um, and then the other thing we can have is handling events, um, which are gonna cause shock to occur.
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What can make rail different is when um people are loading for over the road, you know, you kind of know the driver's gonna be driving forward.
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Um, and then sometimes they're gonna be backing up, but most of the freight is gonna be kind of moving towards the nose of the trailer.
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Um in rail, your container or trailer could be loaded and it could be riding backwards the entire way, right?
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Or it could be riding forwards.
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Um, it also is gonna be lifts are gonna occur if it's coming often on a boat or often on the rail equipment.
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Um, and so it just adds a lot of different kind of force and vibration than we're gonna see strictly over the road.
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And you mentioned switching too when when you're testing, what what does that element add to?
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Switching, like oh when you're uh you mentioned when you're testing the uh the containers, you're you're testing uh or testing uh equipment in the containers with switching as well.
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Uh were you just talking about all of those different elements already?
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Yeah, so we're we're testing for kind of again for like a shock event um as well as then when we do on track or vibration or over the road, we're testing more for like a vibration to occur.
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So so that can sound scary to some people uh that uh that are used to uh the more straightforward way of uh packing on a truck and everything.
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Uh so how do you make it not scary for folks?
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Well, the first way I think is really education.
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Um and that can be really challenging because um, you know, a lot of times maybe people aren't even aware how their freight is gonna move once it departs.
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Um, you know, do they know it's going by ocean?
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Do they know it's going by rail?
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Um, you know, and so really making sure that especially as a 3PL, um, that you're working with Sheppers to understand what their freight is going, how their freight is going to be transferred or being transported through the US.
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Um, and then really all the partners that are out there.
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So, you know, again, our website is available for everybody to come and take a look at it.
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There's no cost to use it.
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Um, you can see the patterns that are already out there and you can reach out to us as a resource.
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As you mentioned, all of the rail carriers in class one rail carriers as well as many of the shortlines have dedicated shipment quality or damage prevention or load engineering.
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There's a bunch of different names for them.
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Um, and they want to talk to people about how to secure their freight.
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Um, and especially if you do have really kind of a different commodity or something they haven't seen before, they absolutely want to talk to you guys about how to secure that freight.
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Um, and then the dunnage vendor.
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So the companies that provide the load securement devices, they're also a wealth of expertise.
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They've seen this a lot, they work across all the modes of transportation.
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Um, and so really, like as soon as you can connect with either us or the rail carrier or um a dunnage vendor, like there's gonna be so many people who want to help you solve this problem.
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Um so it doesn't need to be scary, you just have to make sure we're working with the right partners.
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So I think to add to that one, um, uh, you know, in our business, a lot of people think it's gonna add a lot of cost and time.
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Um, so that's what's daunting to them.
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And I I just from our personal experience, it it really doesn't if you do it the right way.
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I think a lot of people get into that because they don't do it the right way.
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Yeah.
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And so they may overdo it or not do it correctly.
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Um, I I even we even um encountered a uh situation years ago where somebody was building a literal wall, just building a wall behind the product.
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And and and I was like, whoa, whoa, that I bet that does take time and money.
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Um so you know, uh do you do you find that a lot as well?
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Yeah.
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So um, you know, again, if you're not doing anything, if you're just loading your pallets and shutting the door, obviously load securement is gonna take a little bit longer, but um you are gonna save time overall because I guarantee you at destination, that is not the experience that your receiver is having.
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Um they may have to be re-hand stacking or figuring out unique ways to unload the freight.
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Um, or your freight might be um experiencing problems in route where it's getting damaged.
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Um, so reality, yes, you may have a little bit more upfront cost or a little bit more front front time to have the right load securement and um apply it correctly.
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Um, but like you were saying, like sometimes people are kind of using more outdated methods or methods that haven't um or they haven't worked with a vendor more recently.
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And so there might be a way to do it more effectively and at a lower cost.
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Um, but again, you know, when you look at the whole life of the journey for that freight, you know, if we spend a little extra time loading it safely and securely, um you are gonna save money over kind of that whole transit journey because it's gonna arrive hopefully damage-free, quick and easy to unload, um, and it's just gonna be more consistent.
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You know, we always talk about um damage kind of being the tip of the pyramid.
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Um, so there is like the cost of the damage in itself.
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So like whatever your freight cost, um, but then on top of that, did you have to ship replacement freight?
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So you had to make more freight, you had to ship it, you incurred more shipping charge.
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What was the cost of recouping the freight?
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Did it have to be worked by a third party?
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Did it have to be landfilled?
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What was the cost of disposal of it?
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Um, and then sometimes when things you know have gone wrong, like in a rail yard or with a transportation company, did it require some sort of remediation at their site to address the issue?
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So um, when you kind of look at that whole bigger picture, the dunnage or the load securement is really just a tiny piece of like all the costs that could be incurred on when freight is not properly secured to prevent damage and ensure safety.
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And I want to also say sometimes when I've been to like a shipper and they're loading something maybe for the first time, or a new dunnage or securement application for the first time, and they tell me, Oh, this is taking way too long, it never takes this long before.
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You do have to give your loaders, I would say, a couple weeks to kind of get used to it.
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Um, so yes, the first time when someone is demoing it for you and they're trying to figure out how to like maybe get the buckle to work or how to apply something correctly, it is gonna take more time.
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But we're gonna see that like average application time um go down as loaders just become more experienced with it.
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Yeah, you jumped in and that was my my follow-up was uh does it sort of become like uh like riding a bike after a little while?
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You you get over that hump and then okay, this is just how we do it.
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Little tricks as far as like how to apply strapping a little bit more quickly, or you know, like when to maybe load freight or move out of dungeon, or when, you know, to get off the forklift and add a piece of dungeon.
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So sometimes it just takes the loaders to get into like a little bit more of a flow.
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Well, you know, Shelly, you mentioned the the the wall, and you mentioned that that folks might be some using more outdated methods.
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So so how have some of the methods evolved over the years that you've been doing this?
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Yeah, um, so I would say not maybe even while I've been doing testing, but you know, when we look back at like historical documents, there's a lot of wood, right?
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Wood bracing, there's a lot of nailing, there's lots of conversations about nailing and how to build bracing, and that is still all available.
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Um, there are some commodities that wood bracing is still like the right answer and solution for.
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Um, but there are a lot of different things that can be used now, um like airbags, strapping methods, adhesive methods.
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Um, so they really all have come a long way where we don't have to get the nail gun out and be nailing in for every single load securement option.
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Well, I mean, it sounds like obviously you are testing things all the time and the the provide the dunnage providers are always thinking about things too.
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And I would I would assume that when you get some some new commodity that maybe you haven't dealt with as much before, that's uh, you know, that's a problem that gets solved, and then that solution might work for something else too.
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Exactly.
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Um, so there's things that are kind of very generic load securement methods, we'd say, like just for standard paladized freight, and then you do get into more like specialty ones that are for maybe like equipment or machinery that require a lot more specialization.
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Um, and then obviously there's hazmat securement as well for any freaks that might have um freight that might have math commodities, which is like a higher level of securement as well.
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So um, but yes, um everyone's always trying to innovate and grow.
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And well, we've done this before.
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Can we start here as a basis to move um to the next one?
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Um, but I think that's what makes this job so interesting is um you never run out of kind of questions, or just when we're kind of like, oh, we got the answers, you know, somebody brings up a new commodity or a new variation on a commodity, and you're like, oh, now we have to be able to address that.
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So we're always learning in this industry.
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So you mentioned uh a couple things.
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Uh one, how it comes into the receiver because all the blocking and bracing is done at the shipper location.
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Um, the other thing is uh, you know, talking about the nailing and and and the wood and everything.
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So one of the things I think that um we've come a long way in is that was one of the challenges when everybody was using all the wood and nails when it gets to the receiver, the receiver would be like, you know, it would take them a long time to remove the bracing.
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And what do you do with all of the stuff at that point in time?
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So I think that's something to highlight as the as as your industry continues to advance on ways to brace these things, it it reduces some of that time and cost.
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Yes.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:20:00.240
Um, I will say that that is something when I hear shippers talking or Dunnage vendors are working on solutions, it is like kind of that whole, you know, from how how easy is it going to be able to apply, how reasonable is it gonna be to reply, and then what is it gonna be like for the receiver at destination?
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:01.200
Yeah.
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:15.920
So so we've talked about different, you've you've highlighted, you've you've talked about liquid already and uh and different different commodities that that maybe handle the harmonic vibration uh better than others.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:25.440
Um so so how important is it to really evaluate that that commodity that you're shipping before you jump all the way in?
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.880
And it it honestly starts so much even further back.
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.759
Um it starts really when you start talking about packaging, right?
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:36.160
And so um is the commodity appropriately packaged?
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:41.519
Um, and that's like packaged individually and then possibly like a bigger unit packaging as well.
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:48.319
Um, not only for like a lot of times a static environment, like a warehouse environment, can it be stacked, you know, can it be driven around the warehouse?
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:54.160
But then is it also significantly packaged to handle um the transportation environment as well?
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:58.799
Um so a lot of times we do talk about like, you know, load securement can only do so much.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.000
Um, it can keep the freight in hopefully in position.
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:11.759
Um but if the packaging in itself is not um going to be robust enough to protect the individual unit or the commodity, um, that can be concerning as well.
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:26.319
Um and sometimes we are actually having to provide more um done edge options, um like such as corner boards or corner protection, um, because we are actually helping the packaging because the load securement itself could be too strong for the packaging.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:40.480
Um, so it is really important that when a manufacturer or a warehouse is kind of starting this whole journey, that they've really started all the way back at the unit, you know, the commodity level and the unit level to make sure it's appropriately built and packaged.
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:48.000
Um and then is it, you know, ready to go either over the road or on rail or on ocean with the proper load securement.
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.519
So you really do have to have that whole foundation um laid.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:58.880
You know, if you have a bottle or a can or a case that's not strong enough, the load securement is never gonna fix that problem.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.759
Um the load.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.720
May come in intact, but you may still have damage from the insufficient packaging.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:18.400
So uh a typical uh shipper that uses truckload when they're they're dealing with the the packaging part, do they sometimes have to reevaluate that a little bit when they uh if they're looking to switch over to intermodal?
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:19.680
They may need to.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:26.799
Um typically, you know, if somebody's really doing like a good packaging review, they've already kind of taken that all into consideration.
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:31.680
Um it might just be maybe a different um palette build.
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:38.640
Sometimes we see um palette like case goods that have a lot of overhang and underhang um on the palette.
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:45.759
That may not be a huge factor in over the road, but an intermodal because we're doing again a lot more of movement in both directions.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:51.119
Um so we might just say, hey, can we rotate the cases and you'll get like a better squared-off palette?
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.599
Um so it could be something fairly insignificant that we would want to look at.
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:08.160
Yeah, so we talked about the the harmonic vibration a little bit, but but the and and you talked about like the direction that you may be going and and the handling is a little uh a little more substantial on your modal.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:16.240
But uh, so how much can things shift if they're not uh properly braced and blocked uh on a load?
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.960
I mean, uh have you seen some some pretty bad ones?
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:24.720
Um well just kind of depends where where you know where they're not braced and blocked at.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:34.160
Um but yeah, you can definitely um you know see movement side to side as well as lengthwise in a container if we're not properly braced.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.400
Um for again for all directions.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:50.240
Um, you know, again, a lot of times people uh will say like, oh, we braced it towards the doors, but then they didn't brace it towards the front, and then the container actually rode kind of the other direction and saw more movement towards the nose.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:24:06.640
Um and again, kind of sideways to um, you know, again, oh it it I had a six or 12-inch gap, I didn't fill that, and then everything is seeking stability in the load, and so they're actually gonna vibrate until everything is kind of touching something in the load.
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:13.200
Um I've had trippers tell me, well, I don't put it against the wall because it's gonna get damaged against the wall.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:22.160
And um, you know, I always say, well, it's gonna end at the wall, so if we started at the wall, it's probably gonna survive better than if we started away from the wall.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:29.279
Um, and a lot of times, especially with really heavy commodity, shippers will say, Um, you know, oh, it's so heavy, it's not gonna move.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:30.720
And that and that is just not true.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:39.039
It does not matter the weight of the object, it is gonna want to move and find stability, um, which is likely gonna be in contact with the walls of the container.
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.359
So, how does the weight factor in then when uh when you're doing one of these loads?
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.519
Because obviously that's so weight for intermodal is really, really important.
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:56.799
Um, and again, a shepper needs to be prepared for what is the right weight balance um for all portions of that trip.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:11.039
So that's the over-the-road portion, the rail portion, and then if there is an ocean portion, um, they really do need to understand properly weighing their freight, um, especially for the over-the-road portion, because as we all know, there are you know weights by axles.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:19.359
Um, and then they also need to make sure they're properly weight balanced for rail, um, which is going to include possibly an overhead lift or a crane lift as well as ocean.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:26.799
Um, and so they do need to make sure that we're not too far forward or too far back, um, and then we've got that proper that weight properly distributed.
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:32.960
Um, we do provide more kind of general information on that just because it does depend on the commodity.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:39.680
Um, and then again, what um modes of transportation that container is going to be going through to make sure it is properly braced.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:49.680
Um but yes, you definitely if you have even if you properly block everything, but you don't have good weight distribution, um you could definitely have an issue, you know, going over scales.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:58.000
Um, or even when uh in a rotal ramp, when they go to pick up the equipment, if they sense a weight imbalance with their equipment when they pick it up, they'll put it back down again.
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:06.960
So um, you know, even if it is fully braced so it can't move, but the weight distribution is not correct, um, you could still experience uh issues in transit.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:17.279
So we do a lot of um traditional 53-foot um intermodal movements, but we also do domestic repo on the 40s and the 20s and so on and so forth.
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:30.480
And what we find is that it's very important to make sure as we're working with shippers that we know uh all the different types of boxes that they're gonna use because it's very different about what kind of bracing is needed for each size of container.
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:37.440
Um so I would assume that you do similar testing uh based upon the size of the containers that you think are gonna be used for that commodity.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.000
Yeah, so we we do um in our loading guide uh try to indicate what size equipment it was tested in.
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:52.960
Um and then, but it can possibly be adjusted for a different size of container, um, but again, you do have to take that weight balancing um into effect.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:58.880
So, you know, for a 40, you might load uh significantly closer to the door than you would like for a 53.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:05.920
Um and so you know, they do have to just if they're gonna modify a pattern based on the container size, they need to take that into consideration.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:15.920
So is there uh is there a pattern of uh of best practice for for loading when you're you're dealing with a container?
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:23.920
Are you um starting on the the inside uh the far inside, or are you doing the the floor up?
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.960
Or I mean is it is it kind of all dependent on the commodity?
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.279
It's all dependent on the commodity, yeah.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.839
We don't I know that there are some for over the road, they usually say which side of the truck to start on.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.559
Again, we we're flat on rail.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:41.839
Um so we don't we don't say that as much, but it is really just going to be based on the on the commodity.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.680
We have load patterns that start off the nose, we have load patterns that start at the nose.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:28:02.720
Um, you know, we do say if you can ship in a single layer, um, you know, that probably to spread the weight across the the layer um floor is it would be a more best practice, but there might be instances where stacking freight is needed or stacking freight and keeping your weight centered might be a better solution.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:06.640
So it really is going to be based on the commodity and the weight.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:18.000
So um when it uh when it comes to the the damage proposition, um what what are you evaluating on on the the back end?
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:28.079
When uh are do you hear about the the situations where like after the damage has occurred and then and do you sort of forensically go back to figure out maybe what's wrong?
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:30.880
Um yes, we do we do a lot of that.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:39.680
Um so yeah, when we're doing testing, what we're really looking for is one, um, is the safe, uh is the freight going to remain in the position that we loaded it in?
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:42.480
Um is it gonna remain in the condition that we loaded it in?
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:47.119
Um is it gonna be safe during the rail journey or transportation?
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:52.559
Um, and is it going to prevent any damage to both the equipment or any outside objects as well?
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.240
Because we don't want to damage the intermodal equipment either with the freight.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:06.400
Um and so yeah, when you're looking at you know damage at destination, you are trying to determine, you know, was it from contact um with the walls, was it from contact with other freight?
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.960
Um, was it a packaging concern or even damage from the dynamic itself?
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:18.559
Um so you are sometimes trying to work backwards to understand, well, what isn't working so that we can provide a solution for that.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:36.319
Are there any commodities that you know in in your experience that that were particularly tricky to sort of figure out that that you were able to come up with a a good intermodal solution on for the packaging?
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:42.640
Yeah, I did not work on this because a lot of these solutions have been around for longer than I've been in the industry.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:58.160
Um, but I know that they worked uh the industry worked for a long time on securing uh large rolls of paper for uh intermodal transportation because uh we always joke round things in square boxes are challenging and they are typically very heavy.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:02.319
So um you weigh out the container long before you cube it out.
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:10.240
Um so I know back in the 80s and 90s, um, and even early 2000s, there was a lot of testing for rollpaper securement.
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:16.240
I know we're very sensitive to the coils, the steel coils, the aluminum coils, and those types of things.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:21.279
Um we're very we're overly sensitive to make sure our quality teams are involved in those.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:21.839
Yes.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:27.920
And coils add a complexity as well, um, not just proper weight distribution, but they can have concentrated weight.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:39.039
Um, we do have uh information on concentrated weight in our in our documents, um, as well as even kind of a little short video clip that's available on our website that talks a little bit about looking at concentrated weight.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:45.440
Um, and it's also really important to talk to your um carriers if you're gonna be shipping anything that's considered concentrated weight.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:53.279
Um, because again, now we've added a concern of stressing the intermodal equipment and possibly coming through the floor of the intermodal equipment.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:31:01.680
Um, so it's not even proper blocking and bracing and weight distribution, but it's also spreading the weight um through a larger floorprint of the container trailer.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:08.720
So um, and I know a couple people in the industry that are really experienced with it and do a really great job with it.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.720
So um it is really important.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:19.200
Uh if you have questions about concentrated weight, we get you in touch um with somebody who's very comfortable with it uh to make sure that we're getting that handled correctly.
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:30.160
So is there is there any kind of most common um thing that that shippers are overlooking when when you do see damage?
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:37.839
Is there like the first thing you think of when you hear about something is uh, oh, they forgot to do X, Y, Z, something like that?
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:48.480
Yeah, I would honestly say the thing that I hear the most from the rail carriers um is just that people are just not doing load securement or they're just not really doing enough um load securement.
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:57.839
Um, you know, we maybe just one airbag when we needed maybe two or three airbags, um one strap when maybe we needed four or five straps.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:06.960
Um so we're either just not doing enough load securement, or you know, sometimes we see like little to no load securement, which is um very concerning.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:14.960
Um, so really just making sure we are doing load securement and then doing it to the level that the dunnage manufacturer or dunnage vendor is going to recommend.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:16.960
Um again, that's how it was tested.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:20.880
Um, and so we need to make sure that's as how it's being applied.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:26.720
Um, we always kind of stay back to basics when people come and talk to us about damage, like are we loading tight?
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:28.400
Is the packaging sufficient?
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.240
Do we have any underhang or overhang on any of the pallets?
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.839
Um, and then are we, you know, applying the dunnage correctly?
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:37.519
So are the straps fully tensioned?
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.079
Are the airbags inflated to the correct PSI?
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:54.880
It's kind of like all those little things, especially as time goes by, if you haven't had um, you know, a vendor in in a while to make sure that your staff is doing all those things correctly, we may have started to slip, you know, and oh, I just put enough air in until the first pop.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.079
Well, that probably is not enough pressure.
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:01.200
Um, you know, you know, but again, it depends on the bag.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:05.279
So, you know, just those kind of like little fundamental back to basics.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.640
Are we doing everything that we should be doing to set the load up for success?
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:30.000
Yeah, I mean, it goes back to the beginning of what you were talking about, where there are these resources out there and there's teams out there, and everybody involved in in the intermodal shipping process wants the load to get there in in one piece and damage free because it's it's good for everybody, right?
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:37.759
So so um where is that that first step when somebody's maybe somebody's doing truckload all the time?
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:41.680
What's what's the very first thing that you would suggest uh somebody do?
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:55.519
Yeah, I would say um, you know, working with uh their intermodal partner, whether that's their container provider or their 3PL, they're gonna probably know which rail carriers are gonna be involved in the transit of the freight.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:04.720
Um, and then they can start bringing in those rail um rail shipment quality or load securement departments to start working with them more specifically on it.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:09.599
You know, there are again a lot of hopefully there is a maybe already out-of-the-box solution.
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:16.880
Um, but if there's not, then they can help developing, you know, how do we move this one forward and start developing more specialized patterns for them?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:23.679
Um but I think definitely starting with that first, you know, with the intermodal provider is the good start.
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:33.840
Um, if they are already working with a doneage provider, um, you know, already on some airbags or strapping already, um, just going back to that vendor and saying, hey, we're gonna be looking at doing rail.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:35.840
What do we need to do differently for rail?
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:45.840
Um, even if that company in itself maybe doesn't provide rail, they probably do know companies that do and already have possibly partnerships with them and can then start bringing those doneage vendors in there.
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:49.519
So um I think the important thing is making sure that again that people talk about it.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:59.280
If you don't tell the company that's already providing your airbags that you're moving to rail, they're never gonna know to go change your airbag to one that is specifically tested for rail applications.
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.679
Um, so you need to just make sure you're communicating with that to everybody in your supply chain.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:13.679
And and I don't wanna, you know, we also don't want to scare people off with the idea that that this is gonna take forever for you to to change over if you haven't done it before.
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:27.519
So so in your experience, Shelly, like what's the the time frame where somebody is maybe thinking about it and and you know, you bring in the people to talk to about uh how to pack and how to block embrace, uh, how long does that really take?
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.880
I it for your traditional commodities, it doesn't take very long at all.
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.800
I I think they're they're very pretty used to what they need to do.
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:41.199
Um it's it's really about void fill and and making sure that the thing, you know, the the commodity is not gonna shift.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:53.360
I I think really where you get into more of those discussions and and thought on process and time and and and how much additional effort is gonna take it are those um unusual commodities that add a little bit of extra risk in transit.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:00.559
And typically the the people or the shippers that are you handling those commodities already know they have an unusual commodity.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:00.800
Yeah.
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:11.519
Um it's not a surprise to them, and and they're always very willing to understand the best practices and work with you to understand what they need to do to do it properly on intermodal.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.760
I definitely do hear stories where the container is backing up.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:17.119
What do I what do I do?
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:18.800
Um and that's the worst.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:24.239
But they're thinking about it a little bit, right?
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:25.679
Yeah, the containers with the doc.
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:28.000
The the two-hour mark just started, what do I do?
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:33.360
Uh we could at least have a few weeks, I think, is nice.
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:36.239
Um, just in case you do need to order any different supplies.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:37.519
They have time to arrive.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:43.519
Asking for a MacGyver solution there at the end, right?
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:45.280
Yes, yes.
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:55.360
Well, and as you said, uh there there may be a little bit of a time investment at the beginning, but once you've done it, then it just keeps going.
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:55.840
Right.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:56.960
Yes, yes.
00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:09.199
And I've seen again Dunnage vendors, if they've got supplies in the area, if they've got a salesperson or representative in the area, I have seen people change their schedules to get over to a warehouse to try to help them within a day or two.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:15.119
So, you know, it is an industry that, you know, understands that uh, you know, things are always in motion.
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:21.039
Um, so just because you didn't have resources and you mean resources quickly doesn't mean don't ask for them.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:27.280
Um, because it'd be better to try to get, you know, whatever supplies we can get or whatever knowledge we can give to you in a limited time.
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:34.159
Well, I mean, even your your two-hour mark there, that's that's better than finding out uh completely on the back end.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:40.960
You might be able to do at least a little something in that window versus uh not thinking about it at all, I would guess.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:41.760
Yeah.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:51.280
Um and so, you know, with with all of this, that when people are doing everything right, uh you know, how smooth is it?
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.480
I mean, people still might have have concerns that uh okay, I'm going intermodal.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:01.679
Uh do I have to sign up for for more damage possibilities just in general?
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:08.159
But but once once things are you know done properly, they've taken the time to think about it and and go through the procedures.
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:09.760
How how does it go?
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:18.079
I mean, from my point of view, uh, you know, people are shipping uh every day intermodally and and hopefully not experiencing damage.
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:24.559
Um I'm kind of the person that people come to when there are problems, so I don't always get to hear the good news stories.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:36.639
Um but I know just working with the rail carriers, you know, there are a lot of success stories of people shipping on rail um and not and being able to address any damage concerns that have arose or not having damage concerns.
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.280
Um so yeah, it's definitely possible.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.559
You just do need to um, you know, make sure you take the time in the beginning um to do it correctly.
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:48.559
And that's I think that's true for every mode of transportation.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:49.119
Right.
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:49.519
Yeah.
00:38:51.039 --> 00:39:08.480
And um, yeah, I mean, uh as we said uh a couple of different times here, I mean, the the shipper wants everything to get there in one piece, the carrier wants everything to get there in one piece, the uh the provider, the intermodal provider, the dunnage provider, everybody is uh is invested in the same way.
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:11.760
There's nobody who's trying to sabotage the situation.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:18.960
So um so Kelsey, tell tell people a little bit more about uh you you mentioned a few of these resources.
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:23.199
Where can they go to to find them and and if they have any further questions?
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:23.840
Yeah.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.519
Um and I don't know if we can share uh our uh link to our documentation.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:33.599
Um it is it's a little bit long, I just can't rattle it, rattle it off.
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:35.519
We can put that in the description, yeah.
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:38.960
So if you want to get people sort of towards the the right place.
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:54.880
So we do have our um web pages are available, and again, we do have um intermodal loading guide as well as circular 43, which is gonna kind of be the documentation for all of the carriers um uh that are going to that all the carriers have agreed to for interchange purposes.
00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:03.760
Um, we also do have reference documents there for how to contact the individual class one um shipment quality departments.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:09.840
Um, so you can reach out there, um, as well as we do maintain some contacts for some done edge vendors as well.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:15.119
Um you know, again, reaching out to the intermodal provider that's going to be bringing the container to you.
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:18.239
Um, hopefully they can help point you in the right direction of your rail carrier.
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:28.960
Um, if you go to any of the rail web pages, they all say first-time shipper or new shippers and um have information for um how to reach out to their load securement departments.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:38.079
And again, if you kind of Google it, you know, uh rail load securement doc, you know, documenters, um, they're all gonna start popping up there as well.
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:42.480
So um, but again, the the rail carriers are gonna be able to provide contacts too.
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:50.960
So I think really just getting in touch kind of with that first person, and then you may find yourself with multiple contacts of who to reach out to.
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:52.320
All right.
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.440
Kelsey, thanks very much for uh taking the time to speak with us today.
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:56.159
Yes, thank you.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.440
No, thank you guys, and thanks for reaching out and helping spread the message.
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:01.039
Load securement is important.
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:02.559
So thank you guys.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:09.199
As we were saying with with Kelsey, there are there's so many different scenarios.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:14.320
So we're starting with kind of a 30,000-foot view here.
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:28.000
Um but but when that when you're talking to somebody who hasn't done this before or hasn't done it in a while, uh, how much does this come up in the the conversation, the the concerns about blocking, bracing, packaging, all that?
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:29.280
Yeah, I mean it comes up.
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:42.880
Uh I would uh kind of how I mentioned on the on the uh podcast there, it it's it's more when you get those unique commodities, the ones that aren't your standard palletized freight that's gonna fit mostly within the container.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:54.400
Um it's either it's either a unique commodity that isn't uh squared to fit well in there, or if it's something that has a, you know, it's it's really dense and you're gonna put it in a 53 so it has a lot of void.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:54.639
Yeah.
00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:00.719
That's when you really need to talk in more depth about how they're gonna brace that material.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:05.840
I mean, so it's always a topic that we have with the customers, but it won't it it really depends.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:12.000
And that's why you always kind of lead with uh what's the commodity and how's the commodity packaged and and how or how do you load it.
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:24.400
And on those unique ones, we always try to get a you know, if they're currently shipping truckload and looking to move to intermodal, we ask them if they can take a picture about how they're loading it.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:25.519
Yeah.
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:36.559
Well, I would think, you know, we we talked about how it it behooves everyone to be thinking about this and making sure that their things get there in one piece.
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:48.880
But uh that might be a little red flag if somebody's talking to you to someone who's you know saying, oh, we could put this on intermodal and maybe never mentioning uh that piece of it.
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:51.280
That might be a little red flag if you're talking to a provider.
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:52.000
I think it is.
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:56.639
And I think one of the things that people really don't uh understand is uh, you know, the the weight situation, right?
00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:01.360
There's always this intermodal and truckload have a different weight constraint anyway, as it is.
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:01.840
Yeah.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:09.840
Um, but what people don't realize is you could have a totally legal weight shipment if it were loaded properly uh on the axles.
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:21.840
But if if there's not bracing, because of that movement, uh it can shift those the so uh you know what was legal at the beginning, it can shift it to where it's overweight um in in transit.
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:32.719
And that's a lot of uh what you see with people that don't block and brace appropriately, it's not so much the damage or it's not so much um, you know, uh damage to the container, damage to the product.
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:34.320
It's oh now it's overweight.
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:41.440
And and if it becomes overweight, now you have a lot of cost and time involved in the fact that it's overweight because you can't deliver it.
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:43.840
You have to take it to a location to get it reworked.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.840
It's very costly to rework it.
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:53.199
Um and so those are the types of things that you really want to avoid in in the war with doing the proper blocking and bracing.
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:57.760
It's not only just to protect the product, but it's also to protect you from additional cost and time.
00:43:58.079 --> 00:43:58.400
Yeah.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:43:59.519
Good point.
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.880
So uh thanks again to uh Kelsey for joining us.
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:17.920
And uh, as we mentioned, we'll have some uh links in the description for you to find more from her and and places where you can learn more about uh blocking and bracing and packaging, all of that stuff uh as you think about uh shipping intermodally.
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:24.079
So thank you very much for uh joining us on this edition of the Intermodal Logistics Podcast.
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:28.880
Please do follow us, subscribe, rate, review, comment, all of those things.
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.079
We really appreciate.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:42.239
You can also email us at podcast at intechlogistics.com with other questions as well, and visit www.intechlogistics.com for more about the company.
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:43.760
Or Shelley Austin.
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:44.960
I'm Kevin Baxter.
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:48.480
Thanks again, and we'll be back soon with another episode.