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An extraordinary conversation with Nicolas de Oliveira and Nicola Oxley, the writer-curator duo who literally wrote the books on installation art and founded the Museum of Installation in London. For nearly 40 years, they've been chroniclers, producers, curators, and advocates for a medium that barely had a name when they first started.
From publishing the definitive Installation Art books (1994, 2003) and commissioning hundreds of new works to building an extensive archive – Nicolas and Nicola have been at the coalface of installation art's evolution.
In this wide-ranging discussion, they share what it was like convincing galleries that installation art even existed, why good documentation became their mission, and how they've sustained independent curatorial practice for four decades on "absolute shoestring budgets."
Key insights from this episode:
• How installation art emerged and why galleries insisted it was "just sculpture"
• Coining the term "immersive" in their 2003 book (before it became ubiquitous)
• Their philosophy of curating as co-production
• The economics of independent spaces: how friendships sustain what funding cannot
• Why they turned down a massive London space and turned to making books
• The difference between installation art and the "entertainment industry" of immersive experiences
• Advice for emerging artists: practice comes first, outcomes come later
Nicolas de Oliveira and Nicola Oxley are based in London and run SE8 Gallery in Deptford. Their books Installation Art (1994) and Installation Art in the New Millennium (2003) remain foundational texts in the field.
They publish artist books under their imprint Mulberry Tree Press and continue to curate exhibitions internationally while maintaining one of the most extensive archives of installation art documentation in the world.
00:26 Discovering Installation Art
01:50 Early Influences and Inspirations
06:24 Founding Unit 7 Gallery
07:30 The Role of Documentation
14:45 Museum of Installation
18:30 SE8 Gallery and International Projects
20:05 Challenges of Space and Real Estate
24:10 Curatorial Practices and Artist Relationships
36:09 Writing Process and Collaboration
43:02 Funding and Sustainability
47:06 Installation Art and the Art Market
01:05:08 Supporting Artists Through Time and Commitment
01:07:36 Advice for Emerging Installation Practitioners
01:17:58 Curating Shows in Different Countries
01:24:09 Documenting and Archiving Installations
01:43:44 Defining Installation Art and Its Future
SE8 Gallery: https://se8.gallery/ | https://www.instagram.com/nicode.oliveira?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Installation Art (1996): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12208566-installation-art
Installation Art in the New Millennium (2003): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1972215.Installation_Art_in_the_New_Millennium
Our interview with Hans op de Beeck: https://installationartpodcast.com/hans-op-de-beeck-018
Bonus episode: What is Installation Art: https://installationartpodcast.com/bonus-025
Bonus episode: Why This 2026 Venice Biennale Scandal is Splitting the Art World: https://installationartpodcast.com/bonus-031
Also mentioned in this episode:
Goldsmith’s University: https://www.gold.ac.uk/ | https://www.instagram.com/goldsmithsuol/ | @GoldsmithsUoL
Arte Povera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arte_Povera
Yves Klein: https://www.yvesklein.com/en/yves-klein/ |
Allan Kaprow: http://www.allankaprow.com/
Dan Graham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Graham
Rachel Whiteread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Whiteread | https://www.instagram.com/rachelwhitereadofficial/
Bruce Nauman: https://www.moma.org/artists/4243-bruce-nauman | https://www.instagram.com/brucenaumanart/
Edward Woodman: https://jhg.art/events/space-light-and-time-edward-woodman-a-retrospective/
Helen Chadwick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Chadwick
Thames & Hudson: https://www.thamesandhudson.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/thamesandhudson
ICA London: https://www.ica.art/ https://www.instagram.com/icalondon/
Whitechapel Gallery: https://www.whitechapelgallery.org/ | https://www.instagram.com/whitechapelgallery | @whitechapelgallery
Camden Art Centre: https://camdenartcentre.org/ | https://www.instagram.com/camdenartcentre/ | @camden-art-centre
Museum of Installation: https://www.moca.london/moi.html | https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-britain/museum-of-installation-archive
New Museum: https://www.newmuseum.org/ | https://www.instagram.com/newmuseum/ | @newmuseum
Phyllida Barlow: https://www.hauserwirth.com/artists/2826-phyllida-barlow/
KW Institute for Contemporary Art: https://www.kw-berlin.de/en/ | https://www.instagram.com/kwinstitutefcontemporaryart/
Boris Groys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Groys
Goshka Macuga: https://www.moma.org/artists/131293-goshka-macuga | https://www.instagram.com/gonogo.space/?hl=en
Hans op de Beeck: https://hansopdebeeck.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/hans_op_de_beeck/
Dave Hickey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hickey
Stefan Brüggemann: http://www.stefanbruggemann.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/stefanbruggemann1975/
Chris Kraus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kraus_(writer) | https://www.instagram.com/chriskraus7/
Jonathan Lethem: https://jonathanlethem.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/jonathanlethem/
Richard Wilson: https://www.richardwilsonsculptor.com/
Lucy R. Lippard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_R._Lippard
Giulio Paolini: https://www.mariangoodman.com/artists/57-giulio-paolini/
Pistoletto: https://www.pistoletto.it/eng/home.htm
Eva Hesse: https://www.hauserwirth.com/artists/2810-eva-hesse/
Marcel Broodthaers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Broodthaers
Moon and Jeon: https://moonandjeon.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/moonandjeon/
Documenta: https://documenta.de/en | https://www.instagram.com/documenta_official | @documenta_official
Tate: https://www.tate.org.uk/ | https://www.instagram.com/tate | @Tate
Ian Kiaer: https://alisonjacques.com/artists/ian-kiaer
Olivia Guigue: http://www.oliviaguigue.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/oliviaguigue/
Pearl Jam: https://pearljam.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/pearljam
A Book of Burning Matches exhibition: https://repository.londonmet.ac.uk/6423/1/De-Oliveira_ A-Book-of-Burning-Matches_V3.pdf
David Price on Substack: https://davidpricework.substack.com/
Lucia Nogueira: https://www.luhringaugustine.com/artists/lucia-nogueira#tab:thumbnails
Patrick Jolley: http://www.patrickjolley.com/
Joseph Kosuth: https://www.skny.com/artists/joseph-kosuth | https://www.instagram.com/josephkosuthstudio/
Hal Foster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Foster_(art_critic)
Komar and Melamid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komar_and_Melamid
Hans Haacke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Haacke
Sea of Tranquility: https://hansopdebeeck.com/bookshop/sea-of-tranquillity
Sand novella: https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/Hans-Beeck-Sea-Tranquility-novella-Sand/30087411544/bd
Ole Jørgen Ness: https://galleririis.com/exhibitions/6
Marit Følstad: https://folstad.net/ | https://www.instagram.com/maritfoelstad/
Christo & Jeanne Claude: https://christojeanneclaude.net/ | https://www.instagram.com/christojeanneclaude
Ilya Kabakov: https://www.kabakov.net/
Hauser & Wirth: https://www.hauserwirth.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/hauserwirth/ | @HauserWirth
Leal Rios Foundation: https://lealriosfoundation.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/fundacaolealrios/
Me Collectors Room Berlin: https://www.instagram.com/mecollectorsroom/
Dialogue Gallery Lisbon: https://dialoguegallery.pt/ | https://www.instagram.com/dialogue.gallery/
Appleton Lisbon: https://appleton.pt/about/ | https://www.instagram.com/appletonassociacaocultural/
The Installation Art Podcast is a show about people who love and work with the contemporary art medium of installation. The host Anastasia Parmson, an artist herself, interviews internationally renowned artists and arts workers about the intricacies and behind-the-scenes stories of creating and showing work that is site-specific, ephemeral, large scale or immersive.
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Your host Anastasia Parmson: www.anastasiaparmson.art | https://www.instagram.com/anastasiaparmson.art/
