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00:00:12.476Hello and welcome to the Ignition Zone, your go-to podcast, where we ignite ideas, spark transformation and fuel the journey to unlocking Africa's economic potential.
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00:00:24.955I am your host, matebe Zrobo, and I'm so excited to take you on this incredible adventure into the world of economic development, entrepreneurship and career growth.
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00:00:28.763Into the world of economic development, entrepreneurship and career growth.
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00:00:34.649Welcome to the Ignition Zone podcast, where we ignite conversations that shape Africa's future.
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00:00:47.201Today, we're tackling a topic that sits at the heart of South Africa's biggest challenges education.
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00:00:51.350South Africa has one of the highest youth unemployment rates in the world, with almost 50 percent of young people being unemployed.
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00:00:59.286Yet education remains a key pathway to breaking the cycle of generational poverty.
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00:01:02.834However, are we thinking about it the right way?
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00:01:08.313Are we designing systems and policies that actually lead to economic mobility?
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00:01:19.730Joining me in this episode is Dr Svongile Vilagazi, a renowned strategist and leader in education, social impact and transformation.
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00:01:27.487She's deeply passionate about developing sustainable solutions for South Africa's socio-economic challenges.
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00:01:33.772Dr Svankile Vilagazi, thank you so much for joining us in today's episode.
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00:01:37.950It is such a pleasure to have you and welcome, thank you.
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00:01:39.584Thank you so much for inviting me.
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00:01:42.700Great, let's start off with your career.
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00:01:49.933You've had an incredible career that spans multiple sectors academia, consulting and corporate leadership.
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00:02:02.352Given your extensive experience across industries, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned and that you think we could apply to South Africa's youth unemployment and skills crisis today?
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00:02:07.096Yeah, lessons are interesting because they are usually personal.
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00:02:18.413You can be thrust into a situation and no two people can come out of that situation looking at it the same way, because we learn or we are.
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00:02:21.909We are sensitized to different things for different reasons.
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00:02:36.711Yeah, so my, my lessons that I guess could be applicable for everyone else is to just try and use every opportunity that you get to develop at least the skills as a base.
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00:02:40.842Have a base skill that you can apply across in any way where you can be and just take the opportunities that you are given.
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00:02:44.587And anywhere where you can be, and just take the opportunities that you are given.
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00:02:50.335As a personal mantra, I believe that you are never in a situation as a coincidence.
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00:02:57.812There's always a reason why you are in that situation and you need to be learning from that in situation or environment.
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00:03:03.439So for me, I've been in different sectors, as you have said, different organizations.
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00:03:09.853I remember at the time people were starting to think that we job hop, we keep on moving from one job to another.
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00:03:16.133But for me it has always been important that whatever job that I landed myself, I learned something.
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00:03:22.252It's a new skill and then a new way of seeing things from that environment.
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00:03:29.062So, for instance, when I started my career, I started at the HSRC, which is an academic institution.
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00:03:31.887If you may, it does policy research.
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00:03:52.140I was young, straight from university, it was my first working environment and from that environment, over and above the skills that I learned the skill of relationship building was one of those critical ones that ended up shaping my career after that that you know having a credible name.
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00:03:56.831For instance, I was working under professors who would just pick up the call.
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00:04:17.704For instance, if we are looking for statistics information that an ordinary person would have to, for instance, go via processes to get stats essay to give them in-depth analysis on any issue that they're looking for but because of the relationships, you could just pick up a call and get the information that you need to build the research that you were doing.
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00:04:23.802So that relationship building for me was one of those building blocks that I think are applicable.
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00:04:24.964It doesn't matter where you are.
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00:04:28.072You have to be able to develop relationships.
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00:04:29.074You can't know everything.
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00:04:47.230Another skill that I learned, over and above the technical skill that I was learning, was confidence, Because I think we sometimes downplay some of those what we call soft skills that are required for us to get to the next level the confidence that your ideas are great and your ideas matter.
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00:05:06.267Being an intern, attending and presenting at conferences with professors and experts in their field and being given the platform to just present my own ideas and get feedback from people that have traveled the journey and validate you.
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00:05:16.473So for me it did wonders for my career after that that I can just stand up and believe in my ideas and implement them and they'll be great.
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00:05:55.632So those are some of the things that I think we need to be assisting especially our youth with, enabling them to be able to use talents that they may have to solve some of the problems, because we can't solve all their problems for them, but we can create environments where our young people can feel that they can thrive and can even show us new things that we wouldn't have thought about, simply because we've given them the confidence to know that their ideas matter and their ideas can be great, and we create environments where they can form relationships, relationships that can assist them to then take those ideas to the next level.
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00:06:03.502So those are some of the things that I learned early on in my career that became the foundation for everything that I've done.
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00:06:17.634I've went into different spaces and learned technical skills that are different in that space, but the confidence to believe new ideas, the ability to develop and strengthen relationships have really taken me far.
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00:06:24.973So, dr Sponkler, you spoke about relationship building, confidence and, you know, believing in your own ideas.
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00:06:30.432These are sort of the things that not necessarily are embedded in our education system.
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00:06:43.713And so you know, I guess, when we think about it, our education system sort of assumes that these things are basic or that a student walking into a classroom should have these things already.
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00:06:57.833I remember when I was signing off my own articles, when I was training as a chapter accountant, we used to have this portfolio of evidence and one of the things that you needed to show was that you had acquired these soft skills.
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00:07:03.793You know, you had acquired this ability to build relationships and so on and so forth, to build relationships and so on and so forth.
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00:07:14.028But that was really the first encounter I had, for example, with those sort of skills in terms of relationship building, creativity, confidence, et cetera.
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00:07:37.406And it makes me wonder do you think our education system is embedding everything that it needs to embed in terms of the expected outcome that we need from it, and what key shifts need to happen in order for it to really be the education system that bridges the skills gap that we currently have, such that youth are prepared for the workforce?
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00:07:43.904Yeah, I really do think that we need to rethink our education system.
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00:07:56.870You are correct, these nuances sometimes you learn them on the job and then you discover, but I guess that's why we have in-service trainings and internships and all of those things that I guess at the time I was part of that.
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00:07:58.033I then learned those skills.
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00:08:02.824But we don't need to wait that long, especially when we have a crisis like this one that we have.
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00:08:28.204We can start integrating all of the holistic skills that are required of an independent, capable adult, and I think we are failing our children in a lot of ways because, as a country, I think we have not been able to decide on the key values that are needed for us to build the country that we want to build, or even what country are we trying to build.
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00:08:42.923I don't know if we've established consensus on those critical, strategic, foundational elements that you use when you build anything, when you build an organization, when you build a home, when you build a country.
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00:08:57.392We need to be clear that what are those non-negotiable values that we live by that will integrate very early on in the education, because, I mean, the question for me has always been education to what end?
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00:09:12.711You know, why are we, when we talk about education, what are we educating our children to be or to do, what kind of a world that we envision them to be living in, that they then need to be capable and independent in that world.
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00:09:25.153So if we have not decided on that, we are failing our children, and I think that we do need to rethink as adults, rethink all of those elements for our education system.
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00:09:28.610I mean, you take China, for instance, as an example.
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00:09:31.950Well, china is clearly going to be the new superpower.
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00:09:41.333You can see all the signs are there, and one of the ingredients in the education system is moral reasoning or moral stability.
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00:09:55.241You know, it's something that I think, as a country, we have not really taken as serious as we should be taking it, because our moral fiber, to a large degree, is the reason for many of the lack of progress.
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00:10:29.111When we have all the resources in the world that are needed for us to be on top, we remain lacking, simply because, in my view, our moral integrity is often in question and we need to start thinking about all of those elements that make a whole individual, capable individual, to be able to drive the economy that we are looking for, the society that we are looking for, and what are those elements that must go into the education system and how they must be then taught and integrated into the skills that an individual will need.
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00:10:31.783That is so powerful.
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00:10:56.144So I recently spoke with Dr Balilo Hotla in a previous episode, and he was actually alluding to a similar fact that you are now raising that education alone isn't enough, that we need to think a little bit more deeper about the social dynamics of our society, the family structure and the home environment, and that those play such a critical role.
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00:10:56.365Right.
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00:10:59.326Thank you.
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00:11:09.725Yeah, it's a real challenge because we can't expect teachers to do what parents have failed to do for their children.
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00:11:11.312The basics have to be in place.
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00:11:20.660Nutrition, for instance, has to be in place for a child to be able to absorb whatever learnings or teachings that they are imparted.
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00:11:34.958A family structure that is less stressful for the child has to be in place so that the child can be allowed to be the child and learn the things that they need to learn and grow up to be the youth that they need to be to be effective in society.
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00:11:40.192So with our history that is just so traumatized.
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00:11:51.206I mean we are traumatized people, but I don't think that we take it as serious as we should be, taking that trauma and asking the role of government in that situation.
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00:11:59.764What should be the role of government when we know that we have families that will never be able to provide for our children what they need to provide?
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00:12:06.070We do have initiatives, like the school feeding system, for instance, to try and address nutrition challenges.
00:12:06.070 -->
00:12:19.219I'm not sure to what extent do we even have social workers and certain psychologists for children at school who may be going through traumatic experiences, and those resources tend to be available to a certain class.
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00:12:34.789I remember in high school we did have psychologists at school who assisted when some of us had some kind of issues that they needed to unpack, but I had gone to a multiracial school certain class school.
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00:12:45.186So those issues still determine whether a child will proceed to be a whole individual capable of doing the things that we expect of an adult to be doing.
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00:12:50.923So it begs the question what should the government be doing and what should be their role?
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00:13:24.280And I did listen to a bit of what Dr Bhatti was saying in your previous podcast about the elements that are required to get us the outcomes that we want, Because we spend a lot of money on education but we don't see the returns of those investments, because we seem to be spreading money instead of being deliberate and strategic of what is it that needs to be a non-negotiable and the building blocks that are required of the education system.
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00:13:31.298And those are some of the things that we really need to be looking at as a country, because otherwise we are going nowhere slowly.
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00:13:36.842But we really need to be looking at as a country, because otherwise we are going nowhere slowly.
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00:14:07.102Okay, so really my question to you is how does the home environment impact education outcomes and what interventions can improve that educational success of the majority of this country, who are primarily in various social settings that are primarily caused by historical issues and our historical past, but also, just in general, in terms of the way we live our lives as previously disadvantaged communities?
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00:14:08.272You're correct.
00:14:08.312 -->
00:14:09.797These are really challenging issues.
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00:14:11.761These are not small issues.
00:14:11.761 -->
00:14:20.013And then you add into that the role of churches, because when you talk about what society itself should be doing, you are correct.
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00:14:24.123You cannot expect government to be the one that does everything for us.
00:14:24.123 -->
00:14:26.698I mean, what is the role of churches these days?
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00:14:39.322When I grew up, it was mandated that you needed to be in church on a Saturday, on a Sunday, for instance, sunday school, and then continue for the rest of the service.
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00:14:41.457It was a non-negotiable at my house.
00:14:41.457 -->
00:14:44.619In school, we started with prayer.
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00:14:45.841You know, before anything else the Bible would be read.
00:14:45.841 -->
00:14:46.375School, we started with prayer.
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00:14:47.436Before anything else, the Bible would be read.
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00:14:48.852There would be a prayer.
00:14:49.053 -->
00:14:50.753But we thought that we were clever.
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00:14:57.254As a society, we have multiple religious beliefs why choose one over the other?
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00:14:59.898And the best thing to do is just scrap all of them.
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00:15:10.322I think that was one of the worst decisions we took as a country, because we don't seem to appreciate the role of all of these elements.
00:15:10.322 -->
00:15:19.379Spirituality is a key element that drives our moral fiber as a society, and that we just decided it was basically not that important.
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00:16:09.714Yeah, look, I think this one is always tricky for me, because when you think about justtheid back in the past and how you really had to have people, um, you know, breadwinners mainly primarily male at the time leaving their homes and for a long period of time then coming back, you know after some time, and then you know we also now have, if you go into in the current world that we live in, we also have things like, you know, unlicensed alcoholic establishments.
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00:16:30.371Um, we also have, you know, high prevalence of, probably I mean, I'm not necessarily a connoisseur, but I would expect you know really low quality alcohol being sold in those establishments, really poor role modeling.
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00:16:37.561When I think about it in terms of, you know, people that are in those communities that people look up to and say one day, you know, I want to be like Dr Zabongile Vilagazi.
00:16:37.561 -->
00:16:50.580You know how many of those doctors, zabongile Vilagazi, are walking those streets and actually do anything to sort of empower those kids or even to create just positive role models.
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00:17:19.787The way we live our lives as a primarily disadvantaged or previously disadvantaged community, you know, are there practical things that we need to think about as a society, but then what is it that society itself needs to start shifting in terms of the way we live our lives such that we can improve or even create these sort of holistic individuals that are ready to consume knowledge, be confident and you know in the workplace and express, and so on.
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00:17:26.103So you are correct, we have real issues that needs to be dealt with.
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00:17:37.660It needs a specific mindset and a specific commitment from those who decide that they want to lead us as a society and to be able to drive these things, because these are not easy issues.
00:17:37.660 -->
00:17:50.000But when you mention things like the spatial arrangement of the country, those were decisions taken by a specific system with a clear end goal in mind.
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00:17:59.700They understood what they wanted to achieve and they modeled society around what needed to happen in order for them to achieve what they needed to achieve.
00:17:59.700 -->
00:18:07.320And if that government was able to do that, you ask yourself what makes it so difficult with this current government?
00:18:07.320 -->
00:18:08.712Is it democracy?
00:18:08.712 -->
00:18:10.118Is democracy not working for us?
00:18:10.118 -->
00:18:10.730What is it?
00:18:10.730 -->
00:18:19.744What makes it so challenging for the current government and system to basically remodel society as we know it in order for us to achieve?
00:18:19.849 -->
00:18:29.855Because, going in this train, as we are going, you can see that we can only just hope that by the time it lands, wherever it's going, we'll all be okay.
00:18:29.855 -->
00:18:33.633But we're not going in the right direction, and I think all of us can see that.
00:18:33.633 -->
00:18:36.839And all of these were designed previously.
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00:18:43.840It's not like we woke up and found ourselves with every other second house is selling alcohol in the township.
00:18:43.840 -->
00:18:45.423It didn't happen like that.
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00:18:50.121It was gradual and it was designed to be like that.
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00:18:50.442Why?
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00:19:00.079Because you needed a population that was just too drunk to see what is really going on in their lives.
00:19:00.079 -->
00:19:02.097You know, we're looking for entertainment.
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00:19:05.119Every other space that we can get and every opportunity we can get.
00:19:05.119 -->
00:19:06.531We want to be entertained.
00:19:06.531 -->
00:19:06.853Why?
00:19:06.853 -->
00:19:12.923Because we are running away from the realities that are so painful for us to be able to observe.
00:19:12.923 -->
00:19:19.743So what, then, needs to happen in order to model a different generation?
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00:19:27.230Those things need to be taken out, but how do you do that when you have industries that are benefiting?
00:19:27.832 -->
00:19:31.833and that are sponsoring the government with those benefits, for instance, sa Brewers.
00:19:31.833 -->
00:19:40.582What would be their role if you said that we need to cut down on some of this alcohol consumption?
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00:19:47.636Because, if you ask me, it is one of the biggest challenges we have as a country that we don't seem to be willing to accept?
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00:20:02.272Um, you know, there's many issues that we are dealing with that if we just chose as a leadership that it cannot continue the way it is, we need a different path, it can be done.
00:20:02.394 -->
00:20:15.071When I was at Houteng growth development in the board, some of the initiatives that the government was doing the Houteng government was doing was coming up with.
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00:20:20.992They came up, actually, with the township economic development bill, the first in the country.
00:20:20.992 -->
00:20:27.222It was designed to remodel townships as we know them.
00:20:27.222 -->
00:20:31.897We know townships as a place of dwelling and nothing much.
00:20:31.897 -->
00:20:41.413If you want economic activity, you have to leave the township for you to be included in the economy and then come home late and barely spend time with your children.
00:20:41.413 -->
00:20:55.792So those are some of the challenges that, by creating laws and putting a clear strategy behind them and a clear budget behind them, to say that we will create the industries in the township.
00:20:55.792 -->
00:21:02.395Why, if we're looking to build a plant, usually it's in some place that is difficult to access.
00:21:02.395 -->
00:21:38.641Why are we not building those plants in the township where people can walk to work, where people can then be a value chain that, for instance, if you are manufacturing syringes that a Paraguayan hospital across is looking for, you know it can be people in Soweto, for instance, that are manufacturing those syringes that are transporting them to the hospitals that are looking for and by so doing, then create the townships to be economic hubs instead of just places where they house and labor for those who are involved in the value chain of the economy.
00:21:38.849 -->
00:21:47.924So such things can be done, but they always require commitment and the leadership of government when you have the correct leaders in place.
00:21:47.924 -->
00:21:49.113I'm not sure how far.
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00:22:08.189I haven't heard much, since I'm no longer in that space, and I haven't heard much about what has happened with that bill and what are some of the initiatives that have been put in place to still continue making sure that it sees the dividends that it was intended to achieve, that it sees the dividends that it was intended to achieve.
00:22:08.189 -->
00:22:12.829I mean, it's such a thing We've got ideas, individuals come up with those initiatives and then nothing happens to them.
00:22:12.829 -->
00:22:28.190So those are some of these challenges that we have to consciously confront as a people if we are really serious about getting to the places where we need to get to if we are really serious about getting to the places we need to get to.
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00:23:07.701Yes, I do remember the Gauteng provincial government really taking the lead on the township revitalization plan and in fact, in my previous book inspired by that, such that I had conceptualized and really started and launched, as part of this corporate initiative, a sort of township tech innovation hub that had sort of end-to-end digital skills and particularly focused at young people as well end-to-end digital skills, end-to-end software development, you know, and that sort of thing.
00:23:07.701 -->
00:23:30.002And I remember when we started this program I was we didn't know what to expect, right, we didn't know whether we were going to find young people in the township that were interested in technology and that were actively building apps and actively building technology solutions, but we were pleasantly surprised at the number and also the quality and the talent.
00:23:30.002 -->
00:23:48.520So it actually comes back to what you're saying, that there must be some sort of leadership that I think government provides to essentially spur on the investment into local value chains, local technology programs in townships.
00:23:48.520 -->
00:23:55.002My challenge, though, especially with you know you mentioned, for example, the Gauteng Growth Development Agency.
00:23:55.589 -->
00:24:16.509Some of the things that I find there is that we tend to want to support businesses that are almost like traditional type of businesses, like your spaza shops, like your spousal shops, like your bricklaying and so on, and I think the tension has always existed there for me in terms of really, what should we be looking for?
00:24:16.509 -->
00:24:38.333What is the investment we should be making in order to create new sort of businesses, and what is the investment that we should be making in order to create business or to support businesses that are currently sort of livelihood sort of businesses, because, at the end of the day, you do need growth To the point you made.
00:24:38.333 -->
00:24:43.457You can't leave the township, go make some money else and then sort of come back later on.
00:24:43.457 -->
00:24:56.459And so for me there's a question around what are we doing from an innovation perspective in terms of skills development and the investment that we should be making as a country in those township areas?
00:24:58.881 -->
00:25:11.076Yeah, I think we need to create enabling infrastructure, because human beings have capacity that you and I, as we sit here, we could never even estimate.
00:25:11.076 -->
00:25:12.942People will surprise you.
00:25:12.942 -->
00:25:21.432Innovation always comes from spaces that you did not even imagine, because innovation is a response to a problem.
00:25:21.432 -->
00:25:32.771It's always a response to a problem, and you will not know all of the problems and the solutions that are staring at your face if you are not part of the space that has those problems.
00:25:32.771 -->
00:25:43.824So the best people to come up with the solutions are people who are experiencing the challenges, and the role of leadership is to create infrastructure, at least from a government perspective.
00:25:43.824 -->
00:25:54.539Create the infrastructure that will assist people to then solve their or come up with solutions and even new industries that we wouldn't even have imagined.
00:25:54.539 -->
00:26:03.317But they can come up with them and have faith in human beings and the capacity for them to solve, in human beings and the capacity for them to solve.
00:26:03.317 -->
00:26:13.446But going back to the earlier point about the ingredients that enable people to then be in a position to solve their own problems confidence in one of them and then the infrastructure.
00:26:13.446 -->
00:26:30.153For instance, there was a project, a broadband project, that, again, we were rolling out at the time I don't know how far it is now but in creating centers for young people to be able to come in and use the internet and network with each other.
00:26:30.153 -->
00:26:40.647You know, like all of those spaces that are designed to allow human beings to be human beings and to be creators, that they are, because naturally human beings are creators.
00:26:40.647 -->
00:26:53.250So you can't unforesee what they will do, but all you can do is enable them, with the innate skills and the environment around them that assist them, to be something more than what they come from.
00:26:53.250 -->
00:27:04.128Like, for instance, in the environment, as you said earlier on, all you see are people who come back from work and go to the shipping to forget their problems, and that's all you seem to see in the space that you're in.
00:27:04.128 -->
00:27:07.229So obviously the cycle will keep on repeating itself.
00:27:07.229 -->
00:27:12.551So you have to replace those with positive centers that enable young people to.
00:27:12.551 -->
00:27:16.690Then, if they want to escape, they can be able to escape there and do new things.
00:27:17.160 -->
00:27:20.289Like, for instance, I see my daughter is doing this TikTok thing.
00:27:20.289 -->
00:27:25.568They're creating content on TikTok and I realized the other day that she's actually doing well.
00:27:25.568 -->
00:27:27.185Like she's got so many people following her.
00:27:27.185 -->
00:27:28.642The things that she's doing.
00:27:28.642 -->
00:27:32.971Well, clearly people love them, and it's a new skill.
00:27:33.031 -->
00:27:34.944I didn't teach her that, the school didn't teach her that.
00:27:35.240 -->
00:27:48.496She just had a phone in her hand and then she started creating all of these things that she's doing and I asked myself, as a parent what am I doing now to enable this talent that I see and the new skills that I see are developing in my daughter?
00:27:52.460 -->
00:27:54.006And I don't even know where to start, because these are new industries.
00:27:54.006 -->
00:28:01.385She's in a better position to show me what she needs and how I can support her in what she needs than me trying to anticipate for her, because she's doing something I wouldn't even have thought she'd be doing.
00:28:01.385 -->
00:28:03.690She just had a phone on hand and she's doing something I wouldn't even have thought she'd be doing.
00:28:03.690 -->
00:28:10.388She just had a phone on her hand and she's creating something that is of value for people to be following her and, who knows, she could even monetize it.
00:28:10.388 -->
00:28:35.950So it's those kind of ways of thinking that we have to accept that we cannot be able to anticipate everything that people could do, but what we can do is not fail our young people by not anticipating the universal qualities that are needed to enable someone to take an idea to the next level.
00:28:36.230 -->
00:28:37.071Yeah, I love that.
00:28:37.071 -->
00:28:49.275So you know, you spoke about the investment in infrastructure in terms of you know what needs to be in townships, and actually not just townships, rural areas as well.
00:28:49.275 -->
00:28:53.009What infrastructure investments need to be there?
00:28:53.009 -->
00:28:57.090My question to you would be well, who needs to make those investments?
00:28:57.090 -->
00:29:00.242Is it government, is it private sector?
00:29:00.242 -->
00:29:11.288Is there a model that would enable those investments to be made in such a way that it is mutually beneficial, whether it is government or public sector?
00:29:11.901 -->
00:29:13.119Well, it has to be both.
00:29:13.119 -->
00:29:16.130Like you said earlier on, each one has to play their part.
00:29:16.130 -->
00:29:18.026Government doesn't have money.
00:29:18.026 -->
00:29:23.665Government takes money from business takes money from me and you for each to be able to do the things that need to be done.
00:29:23.665 -->
00:29:34.061So business generally, we expect businesses to be able to come in with the investments that are required to assist government in the leadership that government has decided.
00:29:34.061 -->
00:29:38.211So the partnerships will always be a non-negotiable.
00:29:38.432 -->
00:29:42.222You need both government and business to do their part.
00:29:42.222 -->
00:30:13.991So the investment must come, must invest in the ethical and committed leadership that will take monies that it gets from investors and put them in the places where it's said they would go, and we won't find ourselves having challenges with disappearing monies or monies that are not spent, that they are there, but because we have individuals in leadership positions in government, because for some reasons, we think government now is a space for those who cannot be anything anymore anywhere else.
00:30:13.991 -->
00:30:23.508So they all run to government and they don't have the skills that is required for them to take the investment that is required and plough it where it is needed.
00:30:23.508 -->
00:30:26.808So those again are other challenges.
00:30:26.808 -->
00:30:46.539To say, is government enabled enough, with technocrats and politicians that understand what needs to be done and are committed to what needs to be done, so that then the trust can be built with private sector to be able to put their money and knowing that the money will go where it is said to be going.
00:30:46.539 -->
00:30:52.151Because you do need the partnership, but the partnerships are always founded on trust.
00:30:52.151 -->
00:31:04.069So when you have this trust deficit between business and government, you find a situation that we find ourselves in where private sector is not investing.
00:31:04.069 -->
00:31:11.470They're just sitting on monies that they could be investing back into the economy because they don't trust that the money will go where it's supposed to go.
00:31:11.470 -->
00:31:22.892And it doesn't help when, year in, year out, you see all of these huge budgets that have been, or monies that would have been budgeted that had not been spent.
00:31:22.892 -->
00:31:38.125It also just doesn't assist that we have money in this country that gets allocated to departments, but those departments cannot use them, simply because they are not geared up to be in a position to know what needs to be done and how it needs to be done and how these monies can be managed.
00:31:38.125 -->
00:31:41.867So those are some of the challenges that at some point we need to decide.
00:31:41.867 -->
00:31:52.404Where do we start to intervene in fixing them, because otherwise it just it can look overwhelming because it's like everywhere you look there's something that is broken.
00:31:52.404 -->
00:31:56.342But at some point we do have to then say we will start here.
00:31:56.521 -->
00:32:09.119If it means that we understand that the role of government is so crucial in leading where we need to be going, then we need to be enabling government with right people, right skills.
00:32:09.119 -->
00:32:10.967It must be attractive to them.
00:32:10.967 -->
00:32:18.968It can't be that when you get right people, right skills, certain things happen and suddenly they are leaving and they don't want to come back to government.
00:32:18.968 -->
00:32:22.109Government cannot be left to people who have nowhere else to go.
00:32:22.109 -->
00:32:30.608It has to attract the best amongst us and because of how crucial it is that, when it's properly managed, all the other things just simply fall into place.
00:32:30.608 -->
00:32:35.250It's the leader, and the leadership that is required for society to move forward.
00:32:35.250 -->
00:32:39.646So then it's that day the departments that have so many vacancies.
00:32:39.646 -->
00:32:44.748Let's make it a non-negotiable that you have to fill those vacancies with the right people, right skills.
00:32:44.748 -->
00:32:46.400And then maybe that's the starting point.
00:32:47.359 -->
00:32:59.528Yeah, I think we need to create enabling infrastructure, because human beings have capacity that you and I, as we sit here, we could never even estimate.
00:33:00.141 -->
00:33:01.365People will surprise you.
00:33:02.400 -->
00:33:09.875Innovation always comes from spaces that you did not even imagine, because innovation is a response to a problem.
00:33:10.196 -->
00:33:21.232It's always a response to a problem and you will not know all of the problems and the solutions that are staring at your face if you are not part of the space that has those problems.
00:33:21.693 -->
00:33:32.267So the best people to come up with the solutions are people who are experiencing the challenges, and the role of leadership is to create infrastructure, at least from a government perspective.
00:33:32.467 -->
00:33:49.087Create the infrastructure that will assist people to then solve their or come up with solutions, and even new industries that we wouldn't even have imagined, but they can come up with them, and even new industries that we wouldn't even have imagined, but they can come up with them and have faith in human beings and the capacity for them to solve.
00:33:49.087 -->
00:34:01.906But going back to the earlier point about the ingredients that enable people to then be in a position to solve their own problems confidence in one of them and then the infrastructure.
00:34:01.906 -->
00:34:29.112For instance, there was a project, a broadband project, that, again, we were rolling out at the time I don't know how far it is now, but in creating centers for young people to be able to come in and use the internet and network with each other, you know like all of those spaces that are designed to allow human beings to be human beings and to be creators that they are, because naturally, human beings are creators.
00:34:29.539 -->
00:34:52.588So you can't unforesee what they will do, but all you can do is enable them, with the innate skills and the environment around them and that assist them, to be something more than what they come from, like, for instance, if they're in the environment, as you said earlier on, all you see are people who come back from work and go to the shipping to forget their problems, and that's all you seem to see in the space that you're in.
00:34:52.588 -->
00:34:55.690So obviously, the cycle will keep on repeating itself.
00:34:55.690 -->
00:35:01.012So you have to replace those with positive centers that enable young people to.
00:35:01.012 -->
00:35:08.751Then, if they want to escape, they can be able to escape there and do new things, like, for instance, I see my daughter is doing this TikTok thing.
00:35:08.751 -->
00:35:15.663They're creating content on TikTok and I realized the other day that she's actually doing well, like she's got so many people following her.
00:35:15.663 -->
00:35:20.902The things that she's doing well, clearly people love them and it's a new skill.
00:35:20.922 -->
00:35:22.273I didn't teach her that the I didn't teach her that.
00:35:22.333 -->
00:35:50.608The school didn't teach her that she just had a phone on her hand and then she started creating all of these things that she's doing and I asked myself, as a parent what am I doing now to enable this talent that I see and the new skills that I see are developing in my daughter and I don't even know where to start, because these are new industries she is in a better position to show me what she needs and how I can support her in what she needs than me trying to anticipate for her, because she's doing something I wouldn't even have thought she'd be doing.
00:35:50.608 -->
00:35:58.849She just had a phone on the hand and she's creating something that is of value for people to be following her and, who knows, she could even monetize it.
00:35:58.849 -->
00:36:24.391So it's those kind of ways of thinking that we have to accept that we cannot be able to anticipate everything that people could do, but what we can do is not fail our young people by not anticipating the universal qualities that are needed to enable someone to take an idea to the next level.
00:36:24.690 -->
00:36:25.532Yeah, I love that.
00:36:25.532 -->
00:36:37.733So you know, you spoke about the investment in infrastructure in terms of you know what needs to be in townships, and actually not just townships, rural areas, right as well.
00:36:37.733 -->
00:36:41.469You know what infrastructure investments need to be there.
00:36:41.469 -->
00:36:45.550My question to you would be well, who needs to make those investments?
00:36:45.550 -->
00:36:48.670You know, is it government, is it private sector?
00:36:48.670 -->
00:36:59.755Is there a model that would enable those investments to be made in such a way that it is mutually beneficial, whether it is government or public sector?
00:37:00.400 -->
00:37:01.606Well, it has to be both.
00:37:01.606 -->
00:37:04.626Like you said earlier on, each one has to play their part.
00:37:04.626 -->
00:37:06.489Government doesn't have money.
00:37:06.489 -->
00:37:12.106Government takes money from business, takes money from me and you for it to be able to do the things that need to be done.
00:37:12.106 -->
00:37:22.485So business generally we expect businesses to be able to come in with the investments that are required to assist government in the leadership that government has decided.
00:37:22.485 -->
00:37:26.559So the partnerships will always be a non-negotiable.
00:37:26.559 -->
00:37:30.630You need both the government and business to do their part.
00:37:30.630 -->
00:37:32.304So the investment must come.
00:37:32.423 -->
00:38:02.445Invest in the ethical and committed leadership that will take monies that it gets from investors and put them in the places where it said they would go, and we won't find ourselves having challenges with disappearing monies or monies that are not spent that they are there, but because we have individuals in leadership positions in government, because for some reasons, we think government now is a space for those who cannot be anything anymore and anywhere else.
00:38:02.445 -->
00:38:11.860So they all run to government and they don't have the skills that is required for them to take the investment that is required and plow it where it is needed.
00:38:11.860 -->
00:38:15.266So those again are other challenges.
00:38:15.266 -->
00:38:34.978To say, is government enabled enough, with technocrats and politicians that understand what needs to be done and are committed to what needs to be done, so that then the trust can be built with private sector to be able to put their money and knowing that the money will go where it is said to be going.
00:38:34.978 -->
00:38:40.608Because you do need the partnership, but the partnerships are always founded on trust.
00:38:40.608 -->
00:38:52.530So when you have this trust deficit between business and government, you find a situation that we find ourselves in where the private sector is not investing.
00:38:52.530 -->
00:38:59.925They're just sitting on monies that they could be investing back into the economy because they don't trust that the money will go where it's supposed to go.
00:39:01.242 -->
00:39:11.387And it doesn't help when, year in, year out, you see all of these huge budgets that have been or monies that would have been budgeted that had not been spent.
00:39:11.387 -->
00:39:26.590It also just doesn't assist that we have money in this country that gets allocated to departments, but those departments cannot use them, simply because they are not geared up to be in a position to know what needs to be done, how it needs to be done and how these monies can be managed.
00:39:26.590 -->
00:39:30.327So those are some of the challenges that at some point we need to decide.
00:39:30.327 -->
00:39:40.784Where do we start to intervene in fixing them, because otherwise it just it can look overwhelming because it's like everywhere you look there's something that is broken.
00:39:40.784 -->
00:39:57.634But at some point we do have to then say we will start here If it means that we understand that the role of government is so crucial in leading where we need to be going, then we need to be enabling government with right people, right skills.
00:39:58.260 -->
00:39:59.425It must be attractive to them.
00:39:59.425 -->
00:40:02.567It can't be that when you get right people, right skills, certain things happen and suddenly they are leaving and they don't want to come back to them.
00:40:02.567 -->
00:40:07.427It can't be that when you get dry people right skills, certain things happen and suddenly they are leaving and they don't want to come back to government.
00:40:07.427 -->
00:40:10.567Government cannot be left to people who have nowhere else to go.
00:40:10.567 -->
00:40:19.047It has to attract the best amongst us, and because of how crucial it is that when it's properly managed, all the other things just simply fall into place.
00:40:19.047 -->
00:40:23.692It's the leader, and the leadership that is required for society to move forward.
00:40:23.692 -->
00:40:28.088So then let's start there, the departments that have so many vacancies.
00:40:28.088 -->
00:40:33.186Let's make it a non-negotiable that you have to fill those vacancies with the right people, right skills.
00:40:33.186 -->
00:40:40.603And then maybe that's the starting point and we all focus on that, and then we start everything else that we see it as we progress.
00:40:49.934 -->
00:41:01.809Yeah, so you've mentioned leadership definitely as one of the most key enablers that I think will be able to, you know, help solve some of the challenges that we have.
00:41:01.809 -->
00:41:06.632And I think I would add to that right the idea of prioritization.
00:41:06.632 -->
00:41:22.592So you know, in a previous episode as well, with Dr Badi, it became clear that you know government is really fixated with these sort of crisis the hygiene sort of crisis, right, the electricity hygiene sort of crisis.
00:41:22.592 -->
00:41:29.132But then education sort of is like priority number 15 right at the end.
00:41:29.132 -->
00:42:04.748But when I hear what you're saying in terms of even thinking about how do we enter into the right private partnerships such that we invest in infrastructure in townships, in rural areas, that actually is a holistic approach to even solving education to begin with, and so it tells me that part of that leadership is that we need to prioritize and then start to think about what are the key things that need to be in place for us to really achieve the right education outcomes.
00:42:04.748 -->
00:42:06.384Because it's like a whole lot of.
00:42:06.384 -->
00:42:23.134It's an ecosystem at the end of the day, and it's not necessarily the pass rates that we see on TV, it's not necessarily just the feeding schemes, it's not necessarily just those things, but it's all of these things that you mentioned here today in this episode as well.
00:42:23.980 -->
00:42:33.849So there's also a growing concern about university degrees, right when it comes to education, that they don't guarantee employment.
00:42:33.849 -->
00:42:45.344I mean, I had the privilege of qualifying as an accountant a couple of years ago and it was almost a lot easier to get employment then, and today it's a little bit harder.
00:42:45.344 -->
00:42:51.802And so you know, should we rethink the role of universities in this instance?
00:42:51.802 -->
00:42:59.740When we think about addressing educational challenges for the majority of the population?
00:42:59.740 -->
00:43:05.289What elements should we be thinking about if we were to rethink the role of universities?
00:43:06.992 -->
00:43:08.014Yeah, no, definitely.
00:43:08.014 -->
00:43:29.387By their nature, universities are meant to, you know, teach you how to think and how to solve problems, and right now, what we need as a country, we need more people being active in the economy rather than more people thinking about solutions.
00:43:29.387 -->
00:43:46.110So, yeah, so the role of because I think we made the mistake of putting I don't know more status on university education versus vocational training, and it's one of those things, again, that is a result of the past.
00:43:46.110 -->
00:44:15.853We come from where university entrance was almost impossible for Black people, so we got excited and carried away when we opened up the gates of university for Black people to be able to access, university, for black people to be able to access, and we made it more fashionable and more status attaining if you go to university rather than getting a skill that helps you to do the day-to-day things that all human beings are looking for.
00:44:15.853 -->
00:44:19.346So we need to reverse that and it's all our doing again.
00:44:19.346 -->
00:44:45.630You just put more status there, but we have so many people, especially young people, that we just need to get them active, even if we make it compulsory that you need to have a base before you can think of going to university, you know, because if you still want that status, because we do need university graduates, we do need thinkers, problem solvers, academics we do need them.
00:44:45.900 -->
00:44:52.193But right now what is urgent is that we need active population in the economy.
00:44:52.193 -->
00:44:53.905And how do you get that?
00:44:53.905 -->
00:44:57.590You get that by giving people skills earlier on.
00:44:57.590 -->
00:45:06.994They don't even have to wait for metric to finish their metric and then then start another journey, spend another five, seven years learning some more.
00:45:06.994 -->
00:45:12.208You know, immediately after Matric they need to have the option to start something of their own.
00:45:12.208 -->
00:45:23.074Otherwise, I mean, when you look at the many young people who are unemployed, you can simply conclude that many of them will never be employed.
00:45:23.074 -->
00:45:35.005It's just a logical conclusion that they are a gap, a missing gap or a sacrificial limb in these current states that we find ourselves in, and they will never be employed.
00:45:35.005 -->
00:45:36.945So we need to think quickly.
00:45:36.945 -->
00:45:43.692What do we need to be doing for them to be able to be a productive citizen in this country?
00:45:43.692 -->
00:45:48.168And the training that needs to be given to them immediately as a stopgap?
00:45:48.168 -->
00:45:49.411We need to think about that.
00:45:50.400 -->
00:45:53.190But the university education it's great.
00:45:53.190 -->
00:46:01.382It's good for those who are extremely that way inclined that they are thinkers and they cannot fix anything.
00:46:01.382 -->
00:46:02.422You know there are people like that.
00:46:02.422 -->
00:46:03.422They are thinkers and they cannot fix anything.
00:46:03.422 -->
00:46:04.204You know, there are people like that.
00:46:04.244 -->
00:46:09.628I think probably I'm one of those people that get impatient with anything as simple as doing someone's hair.
00:46:09.628 -->
00:46:16.733I see people who are hairdressers and doing your hair for hours and I'm like yo, I would die, I wouldn't be able to have.
00:46:16.733 -->
00:46:20.117I don't have that patience to sit and do one thing for that long.
00:46:20.117 -->
00:46:22.226I get bored easily.
00:46:22.226 -->
00:46:28.411So I'm that person that I constantly need to think ideas, think new solutions, think bigger picture, abstract thinking.
00:46:28.880 -->
00:46:31.730And there are people like those who then need to go to university.
00:46:31.730 -->
00:46:45.224But for the majority, vocational training needs to be the stream that we start pushing many of our young people to be, but we can even bring it down to high school level.
00:46:45.224 -->
00:47:02.233I don't see what is so difficult and maybe it's because I'm not in that space but giving young people maybe skills like doing nails, for instance, and in high school have that skill that if you finish your matric you have that option to provide that skill immediately.
00:47:02.233 -->
00:47:04.708Start doing being a nail technician.
00:47:04.708 -->
00:47:07.349I don't see what would be so difficult about that.
00:47:07.349 -->
00:47:17.693So things like those that I think we need to rethink in order for us to be able to absorb the many young people who are unemployed at the moment.
00:47:19.920 -->
00:47:30.516That's a very interesting thought, because what's currently happening today is that, for those that want to do vocational training, you wait only after you're done with your metric.
00:47:30.516 -->
00:47:41.092There's nothing in the education system that forces you to get a skill today so that you can, by the time you leave school.
00:47:41.092 -->
00:47:45.809You don't have to wait for a learnership, you don't have to wait for vocational training.
00:47:45.809 -->
00:47:49.291You sort of can leave school and already have that skill.
00:47:49.291 -->
00:47:51.789So that's a very interesting thought and thank you for that.
00:47:52.519 -->
00:48:00.168So today has been or rather this episode has been so insightful and thought provoking, and I'd like to just thank you so much for your time.
00:48:00.168 -->
00:48:02.889There is just so much that we can unpack together.
00:48:02.889 -->
00:48:10.809I cannot believe it's like almost a 48-minute conversation already and it just sort of just flew by.
00:48:10.809 -->
00:48:16.913So I'd like to thank you so much for your time, dr Swangilevilagazi.
00:48:16.913 -->
00:48:23.170Really you've given us a lot to think about and in closing, I just want to get your thoughts on.
00:48:23.170 -->
00:48:39.027For young people who are listening to this and sitting at home and want to take charge of their own future you know, while we are trying to figure this out right and they want to sort of actively take charge of their future today, what advice can you give them today?
00:48:39.027 -->
00:48:45.010How can they upskill themselves even when opportunities seem scarce?
00:48:46.740 -->
00:48:56.067Yeah, it's always difficult, because it's almost like you are lying to your children when you tell them that no one is coming to solve your problems.
00:48:56.067 -->
00:49:08.677And when you look at a generation that fought for freedom and look at how young many of them were when they decided to take the responsibility that their parents were too afraid to even think about.
00:49:08.677 -->
00:49:15.440In challenging the apartheid system, for instance, it was young people who had that the guts to stand up and do something.
00:49:15.440 -->
00:49:33.081And I think there's a lot of inspiration that our young people can get, can gain from those generations that you don't necessarily until you are a certain age for you to take charge of your future and your life, because ultimately, your life is yours as a young people.
00:49:33.081 -->
00:49:47.110Yes, we expect adults and parents to be able to think for you, anticipate for you, prepare you, but if they have not done it, you can't sit around and blame that they have not done it for you.
00:49:47.110 -->
00:49:50.818Anticipate for you, prepare you, but if they have not done it, you can't sit around and blame that they have not done it for you.
00:49:50.818 -->
00:49:54.559You just have to figure it out and unfortunately, that's where many of our young people find themselves in right now.
00:49:55.561 -->
00:50:02.987What I would advise them is that they have to accept their reality, that they have to figure it out and they have to get themselves out of the situation, as the adults are still trying to figure it out.
00:50:02.987 -->
00:50:03.606And they have to get themselves out of the situation.
00:50:03.606 -->
00:50:17.610As the adults are still trying to figure it out for them, they are probably in a better position to find solutions for themselves and advise the adults that this is the kind of assistance I need from you to be able to solve my problem.
00:50:17.610 -->
00:50:31.286But our young people have to grow up and they have to do what they need to do to solve their lives for their lives, because otherwise you just sit there and and hope that one day someone will come for you, but at the moment it looks like no one is coming.
00:50:31.286 -->
00:50:33.311So sort yourself out.
00:50:33.311 -->
00:50:35.202Thank you so much for inviting me again.
00:50:35.202 -->
00:50:36.342It was, I really enjoyed myself.
00:50:36.342 -->
00:50:37.164Thank you, bye, thank you.
