What Problem Does This Solve?

WEBVTT
00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:02.383
Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior Podcast.
00:00:02.383 --> 00:00:10.316
In our experience, we often see organizations and individuals rush toward new technology and equipment, convinced that these shiny solutions will solve their deepest problems.
00:00:10.316 --> 00:00:14.832
But here's a critical question many fail to ask what problem does this solve?
00:00:14.832 --> 00:00:24.091
In today's episode of the Human Behavior Podcast, greg and I explore the reasons behind the allure of new gear, highlighting the significant difference between perceived solutions and genuine needs.
00:00:24.091 --> 00:00:34.686
We discuss real-world examples and practical strategies to help listeners identify when new equipment truly adds value and when it merely serves as a costly distraction or a pacifier for other problems.
00:00:34.686 --> 00:00:46.430
Join us as we dive deeper into understanding the human behavior driving these decisions and uncover how enhancing decision-making skills and investing in training can often provide more substantial long-term benefits than simply upgrading gear.
00:00:46.430 --> 00:00:48.084
Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:00:48.084 --> 00:00:49.148
We hope you enjoyed the episode.
00:00:49.148 --> 00:00:52.930
Don't forget to check out our Patreon channel for additional content and subscriber-only episodes.
00:00:52.930 --> 00:00:57.329
If you enjoyed the podcast, please consider leaving us a review and, more importantly, sharing it with a friend.
00:00:57.329 --> 00:01:00.805
Thank you for your time and remember training changes behavior.
00:01:00.805 --> 00:01:02.151
All right, greg.
00:01:02.420 --> 00:01:12.248
So for today's conversation we've got a good one, and it's around the central theme of what problem does this solve?
00:01:12.367 --> 00:01:23.996
And that question alone is a very simple thought experiment, thought exercise that you can use in a lot of situations and we're going to get into that.
00:01:24.037 --> 00:01:41.040
But I'll give sort of some background on this and just in general, we've talked about this kind of before in general, like what we provide is a thing with a K, not a thing with a G, but we'll get into kind of like why this kind of keeps happening over and over again in a number of different areas.
00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:52.045
And so the idea is a lot of organizations will often invest in tools to fix problems or that are, you know where the problem is actually fundamentally about training, judgment, decision-making.
00:01:52.045 --> 00:01:58.691
We assign a technology to that and that's kind of like throughout human history we've always come up with technological solutions to problems.
00:01:58.691 --> 00:02:02.811
That's not generally the issue, but the issue is it's kind of becomes the wrong solution.
00:02:02.811 --> 00:02:11.745
And so we're going to talk about today about why you know we have that tendency and why, you know, not only is it ineffective but it can be very often dangerous.
00:02:11.745 --> 00:02:18.627
And so you know me, I watch a lot of uh, when I do watch TV, I usually watch some, some sort of documentary.
00:02:19.209 --> 00:02:22.082
Yeah Well, unless my, my wife, you're not watching Golden Girls.
00:02:23.385 --> 00:02:33.413
And then then we're watching Real Housewives of whatever, which I can't stand, but I also find it extremely informative and very, very insightful into pop culture and society as a whole.
00:02:33.413 --> 00:02:34.825
But that's a different episode.
00:02:34.825 --> 00:02:40.072
So today I watched one on the Boeing 737 MAX.
00:02:40.072 --> 00:03:05.079
And so there was all these problems with it, right, and so there was all these problems with it, right?
00:03:05.079 --> 00:03:07.991
So Boeing, their 737 MAX was developed to compete with rival competitor Airbus' more fuel efficient, larger plane.
00:03:07.991 --> 00:03:13.497
So rather than designing a new airframe from scratch, having to go through that whole process massive investment, all kinds of stuff you have to do, what they did was they took their existing 737 platform and added larger engines.
00:03:13.401 --> 00:03:17.915
Now, the key reason why they did this was because the you know pilots who are currently rated and certified to fly the 737 would not have to go through any recertification process.
00:03:17.915 --> 00:03:20.105
It wouldn't be something long, meaning it could be adopted very quickly.
00:03:20.105 --> 00:03:22.568
Everyone like this, like, hey, this gives us this new capability.
00:03:22.568 --> 00:03:28.990
Everyone still has the you know the requirements to continue to fly the plane, so we don't have to change anything.
00:03:28.990 --> 00:03:30.902
Wow, this is a great solution.
00:03:30.902 --> 00:03:33.187
And look at what it's going to do for our bottom line.
00:03:33.187 --> 00:03:35.222
You know, it's basically the same plane.
00:03:35.222 --> 00:03:37.850
So that was kind of the concept behind it.
00:03:37.890 --> 00:03:49.151
But the problem with this new design of adding these larger engines is that the placement of the engines cause the aircraft's nose to pitch upward under certain flight conditions.
00:03:49.151 --> 00:03:55.366
Now, I'm not a pilot, but that's not always a good thing if your nose starts to pitch upward.
00:03:55.366 --> 00:04:02.961
And so, because this design issue what they had, they said, okay, well, we're going to counteract that and we're going to create a technological fix.
00:04:02.961 --> 00:04:18.982
And so they said, rather than again spending the time and the money and the resources and pulling pilots offline and getting them trained up and hey, this is what happens, but you can counteract that what they did was they just implemented this new system called MCAS Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System.
00:04:18.982 --> 00:04:27.954
So the idea was the MCAS automatically pushed the nose of the plane down if it detected that the aircraft was climbing too steeply.
00:04:27.954 --> 00:04:39.475
Now, once again, greg, I am not a pilot, but I think, for a significant amount of the time that you're flying, you don't want the nose of the plane to be pushed downward during your flight.
00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:48.466
I'm not going to sit here and believe that Boeing made a mistake, okay, so if you're trying to get me to 100, I'm just saying that's a little hard to follow.
00:04:48.466 --> 00:04:49.786
So yeah.
00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:50.702
Well, I don't want to get.
00:04:50.702 --> 00:04:53.386
I like my life, I like being above the ground.
00:04:53.386 --> 00:04:56.870
I don't want to get taken out by some Boeing team.
00:04:56.870 --> 00:05:00.201
No, but so here's the thing they didn't.
00:05:00.201 --> 00:05:06.925
Boeing didn't train pilots on the existence of this MCAS system, didn't boeing didn't train pilots on the existence of this mcast system.
00:05:06.925 --> 00:05:08.747
And a lot of the pilots I found out after the investigation they were unaware that was even on their aircraft.
00:05:08.747 --> 00:05:12.439
So they're flying this plane thinking, okay, yeah, it's the same plane, yeah, newer, bigger engines, whatever.
00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:16.430
They didn't even know that there's this thing in there that might push the nose of the plane down.
00:05:16.430 --> 00:05:26.625
So you know, it also relied on a single sensor and if that sensor failed, this system again that pushes the nose of the plane down could activate incorrectly.
00:05:26.625 --> 00:05:34.536
So from this, there were two fatal crashes Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines occurred after this MCAS forced the nose of the plane down repeatedly.
00:05:35.137 --> 00:05:39.810
Flight crews obviously had no idea what was happening, so therefore they had no idea how to correct it.
00:05:39.810 --> 00:05:42.706
So people said, oh, it must've been pilot error, it's like.
00:05:42.706 --> 00:05:51.750
Well, no, it's not my fault if I don't know what's going on, I can't diagnose the problem and let alone, even if I did diagnose the problem, know how to solve it, because no one trained me right.
00:05:51.750 --> 00:05:53.122
So the core failure?
00:05:53.122 --> 00:05:57.273
Obviously, boeing tried to solve a design challenge with automation and software.
00:05:57.273 --> 00:06:03.153
They failed to invest in training in the human beings who would be responsible for managing that automation.
00:06:03.153 --> 00:06:10.891
They relied on the tech instead of investing in decision support, orientation, crew readiness, situational awareness, those kinds of things.
00:06:10.891 --> 00:06:18.923
So, basically, boeing gave these pilots a new capability without giving them the cognitive framework to manage it.
00:06:18.923 --> 00:06:23.192
So it's like here's this new thing, go out and you'll be fine.
00:06:23.192 --> 00:06:25.134
Well, that's not how that stuff works.
00:06:25.134 --> 00:06:31.271
And so the end result of this one 346 lives lost worldwide grounding of the entire 737 max fleet.
00:06:31.271 --> 00:06:46.375
Boeing, I believe, lost over $20 billion in costs and legal claims it's probably even higher than that and then years of reputation damage in the aviation safety, which then compiles anytime you have any other problem right, that's, you know becomes the issue.
00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:55.468
So, like I said, the big, central theme of what we're talking about today is you know, just what problem does this solve?
00:06:55.468 --> 00:07:01.872
That's the central question of today's podcast and today's discussion.
00:07:01.872 --> 00:07:03.927
And what you know?
00:07:03.927 --> 00:07:09.728
It's a very simple, you know, it's a simple thought experiment to coming up with any new solution to anything.
00:07:09.728 --> 00:07:10.560
It's like well, what problem?
00:07:10.581 --> 00:07:21.843
We often come up with solutions to problems that don't exist sometimes, and when it comes down to these types of decisions, like most resource decisions are made reactively, not strategically.
00:07:21.843 --> 00:07:26.858
So the idea is okay, something went wrong, let's buy something to fix it.
00:07:26.858 --> 00:07:30.326
Okay, people say they don't feel confident or something's going on.
00:07:30.326 --> 00:07:42.346
Well, let's buy some gear, right, rather than investing in our people, let's go invest in a product, a system, an app and then just let our people figure it out.
00:07:42.346 --> 00:07:46.353
So you know you have to address some questions, right.
00:07:46.353 --> 00:07:49.019
Is this fix, addressing a root cause or just the symptoms?
00:07:49.019 --> 00:07:52.951
Are we solving for performance or just for optics?
00:07:52.951 --> 00:07:55.043
Right, and tools?
00:07:55.043 --> 00:08:13.230
I've also seen we'll get into this tools are often used as shortcuts for difficult conversations, or they're used in place of having a difficult conversation, and so really, the gear becomes a pacifier, not really a solution.
00:08:13.230 --> 00:08:18.781
So that's kind of big picture, greg, and I know you have some other examples there, but I'll stop and let you jump in here as well.
00:08:19.341 --> 00:08:19.603
Thanks.
00:08:19.603 --> 00:08:29.812
So first I didn't want to have this discussion based on the title, so when I first read you know what problem does this solve?
00:08:29.812 --> 00:08:40.195
The first thing I got is a ponytail Friday shirt wearing guy in the board meeting that's leaning back and asking that question with his arms above his head with his fingers interlaced Right.
00:08:40.801 --> 00:08:42.666
And then the second image I got that's the guy.
00:08:42.666 --> 00:08:45.201
No, no, no, no, no.
00:08:45.201 --> 00:08:49.961
But that's that's the guy trying to sound smart, not actually asking the wrong question, right?
00:08:49.961 --> 00:08:51.346
That's why I'm trying to describe that.
00:08:52.964 --> 00:09:06.100
Yeah, the scientific term is douchebag the same douchebag has inside of his coat pocket, his wool coat pocket, a laminated card and there's a follow-up question is how do we scale this pocket laminated card?
00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:07.403
And there's a follow-up question is how do we scale this?
00:09:07.403 --> 00:09:12.585
And he has no idea that either of those questions are, you know, douchebag one-on-one, that they're just to make it look like he's paying attention and involved in it.
00:09:12.585 --> 00:09:21.960
Then I started reading into it and and when I got to the, the, the 737, I couldn't believe the numbers and I couldn't believe it was Boeing.
00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:31.011
But then you wrote something and it really stuck, it really resonated, and you wrote that most resource decisions are made reactively, not strategically.
00:09:31.011 --> 00:09:39.049
And we have a bunch of police officers and law enforcement corrections courts that listen to the show or that we know personally.
00:09:39.049 --> 00:09:42.179
And I would say, just change out Brian's sentence just a little.
00:09:42.179 --> 00:09:51.620
Most resource decisions are made reactively, not strategically.
00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:52.806
Now let's take that same sentence to the dojo floor.
00:09:52.806 --> 00:09:57.562
Now let's take it slide, stopping up to a police call where shots have been fired and somebody's down and maybe an officer's down.
00:09:57.562 --> 00:10:01.052
Now let's take it out to the training that we're doing on the shooting range.
00:10:01.662 --> 00:10:23.928
If we're making our decisions reactively and we're not implementing or inputting the new and incoming information strategically, then we're going to slide directly towards the problem at full speed, with no further chance of solving it than we had when we were on the outer ring circle in the drain looking at the problem.
00:10:23.928 --> 00:10:25.211
And what do I mean by that?
00:10:25.211 --> 00:10:33.589
I mean that you have to understand that if we don't create a cognitive framework for problems, then we're never going to solve it.
00:10:33.589 --> 00:10:39.192
And, Brian, you said you know, are we solving for performance or just for optics?
00:10:40.259 --> 00:10:51.105
Do you remember during this, a couple of years ago, within the last five years, where police agencies oh man, you can't have an American flag on your police uniform, okay, that's going to piss some people off.
00:10:51.105 --> 00:10:52.625
And then we went the other way.
00:10:52.625 --> 00:10:56.399
Well, you don't want to have shined black boots because that brings in the militant.
00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:05.195
What we are doing, Brian, is on a whim, or on one written complaint, or on hearing somebody say man, that certainly seems like it.
00:11:05.195 --> 00:11:06.702
You know, it's a point of agitation.
00:11:06.702 --> 00:11:12.302
We were changing policy and and it's the same answer over and over and over what?
00:11:12.302 --> 00:11:18.642
What thought did we put behind this before we decided to go forward and fix it Right?
00:11:18.822 --> 00:11:23.864
And and you bring up kind of reinforcing the point that you know this, this tool can be.
00:11:23.864 --> 00:11:24.894
When I said you know this, this a tool can be.
00:11:24.894 --> 00:11:27.772
When I said you know tools are often used as shortcuts for difficult conversations.
00:11:27.772 --> 00:11:39.446
So rather than having a difficult conversation, we wanted to point to the flag or the boots and say that's the problem it's like well you're that, that's clearly not the issue.
00:11:39.686 --> 00:11:42.870
Like you know, it's like what?
00:11:42.931 --> 00:11:44.153
what does that have what?
00:11:44.153 --> 00:11:47.784
What does someone's shoe have to really do with the situation?
00:11:47.784 --> 00:11:56.072
Or is that symbolizing something larger that alludes to the problem that you're actually getting at, but you don't know how to articulate it, so you can point.
00:11:56.072 --> 00:11:57.922
But you, but I can point to that, I can point to that thing.
00:11:57.922 --> 00:11:58.602
You know what I mean.
00:11:58.602 --> 00:12:07.716
So I say, well, that's gotta be it, it's, it's, it's the, it's the red hat you're wearing and it's like well, okay, no, it's not.
00:12:07.836 --> 00:12:15.052
That's a symbol of something that you don't like, so I want to get.
00:12:15.131 --> 00:12:21.168
I know you yeah, you had a good example of that, spurred a memory motion link for me.
00:12:21.168 --> 00:12:23.640
Oh yeah, and I'd love you to bring that up too.
00:12:23.640 --> 00:12:29.827
So I lived through something that most Americans have long forgotten and and let me be the historical record.
00:12:30.701 --> 00:12:35.350
So the civil war the civil war, being the musket man.
00:12:35.350 --> 00:12:41.269
So there was a thing that came out while I was a copper called anti-lock breaking, and they called it ABS.
00:12:41.269 --> 00:12:44.855
And we had a fleet full of, of, of, of, of, of, and they called it ABS.
00:12:44.855 --> 00:12:45.639
And we had a fleet full of Chev's.
00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:56.725
And then we had the other, the big gosh damn boats that I can't think of the name of them, that were out there as the Mark police cars, and all of them because there were fleet vehicles.
00:12:56.725 --> 00:13:00.753
They all came straight from General Motors with the ABS on it.
00:13:00.753 --> 00:13:03.301
Now, there wasn't a warning, there wasn't, by the way.
00:13:03.301 --> 00:13:04.600
We changed all the systems that we told you about before they were just on it.
00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:05.071
Now, there wasn't a warning, there wasn't.
00:13:05.071 --> 00:13:07.836
By the way, we changed all the systems that we told you about before they were just on there.
00:13:08.317 --> 00:13:24.370
And the idea behind it was sound, because it was supposed to allow a driver to maintain steering control and shorten stopping distance, and specifically for emergency situations like slippery surfaces, the gravel roads, those types of things where, if your wheels would lock up, you're going to skid and lose control.
00:13:24.370 --> 00:13:31.066
The only problem, without telling us about it and without the additional training Caprice Classic and the other one I still can't think of.
00:13:31.066 --> 00:13:35.649
They put them on the fleet vehicles and said, hey, let the let the gosh damn accidents begin.
00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:42.265
So what happened is that when you press down on it, you had first thing that came back was a pulse rate.
00:13:42.265 --> 00:13:52.995
The pedal would actually push back towards you and it was a rhythmic pattern like boop, boop, boop, and then, when it did that, it made a clunking sound in the firewall cluck, cluck, cluck.
00:13:52.995 --> 00:14:00.802
And so you thought something failed and you thought, holy shit, the car's falling apart and you weren't stopping.
00:14:00.802 --> 00:14:07.386
Well, you were stopping, you were slowing speed and lessening the inertia, but with the brake pushing back on you and that noise, you thought you had a systems failure.
00:14:07.386 --> 00:14:12.885
So people were just sliding through intersections and ramming the car in front of them and oversteering.
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:14.245
Oh my God, I could tell you the story.
00:14:14.245 --> 00:14:26.913
And we were in gosh damn, what's the name of that little city at eight mile, in Kelly Harper Woods maybe and end of a long pursuit and a dangerous situation with shooting during and after the pursuit.
00:14:26.913 --> 00:14:45.947
And Rick Buley came up because we called for another car and locals were on the scene and Rick Buley had the brand new sled on the fleet and he was pressing it and threw up his hands to tell us I'm coming, and went sliding right through the crime scene and almost killed all of us and took out a light pole, and so we went back to the administration.
00:14:45.947 --> 00:14:51.010
I mean, this all happened in a weekend, brian, and we're going like what the hell happened to our scout cars?
00:14:51.010 --> 00:14:58.772
And all of a sudden our supervisors came the general owners was literally across the street, came back and said oh, it's the ABS.
00:14:58.772 --> 00:15:03.268
So we nicknamed them the anti-STOT brakes because nobody could figure it out.
00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:17.506
Now, brian, with a short amount of time and with all the complaints that we had and all the dangers that happened to him, it evolved significantly because we were speaking directly to the people that were putting them on the cars and they were going oh wow, what a great test case.
00:15:17.506 --> 00:15:18.690
But I would ask you this.
00:15:18.690 --> 00:15:23.169
I would say wouldn't it have been great to try a UX experiment just for the hell of it?
00:15:23.471 --> 00:15:32.710
and say put some people out in the parking lot with, like you know, cones and water bags and stuff, and brian had never occurred.
00:15:32.710 --> 00:15:34.878
And and no, I'm gonna get on and say, oh yeah, we did all this, brian it never occurred.
00:15:34.918 --> 00:15:36.703
Well, yeah, they, they, no, they, they.
00:15:36.703 --> 00:15:38.349
I'm sure they they tested it.
00:15:38.490 --> 00:15:43.403
But but you know, there was no, there was no there was no sharing of what that would be.
00:15:43.543 --> 00:15:55.847
no, and and that was the thing, because you mentioned that and I was like, oh my God, I still remember when I was like 16 years old, so I hadn't been driving legally for that long, right and so I had to lock up the brakes.
00:15:55.847 --> 00:16:08.248
Same thing Someone cut me off and they jumped out into traffic and I remember just slamming on the brakes and at that point I know the ABS had changed a little bit, but it was like this really rapid, like feeling on your foot which is really weird.
00:16:08.248 --> 00:16:13.311
And then so what did it automatically cause me to do is, oh my God, there's something wrong.
00:16:13.311 --> 00:16:15.251
And then I lift my foot up and then I have to put it back down.
00:16:15.251 --> 00:16:18.594
So the idea was that the ABS is there, you know it works.
00:16:18.634 --> 00:16:23.596
You stop faster because, rather than locking up the brakes and sliding through, you actually will stop faster.
00:16:23.596 --> 00:16:25.278
It's been proven to show that's a better system.
00:16:25.278 --> 00:16:33.179
But the first time you experience that you're like, oh my again, it's so counter to anything you've experienced so far that it's completely foreign.
00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:36.186
Until you have that experience unless you have, it was just.
00:16:36.186 --> 00:16:37.327
I still remember that.
00:16:37.327 --> 00:16:40.833
Exactly what intersection I was at too, because I almost clipped the person.
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.288
Two completely different age groups.
00:16:43.288 --> 00:16:44.826
Brian is much older than I am.
00:16:44.826 --> 00:16:47.004
Two different things that we like.
00:16:47.004 --> 00:16:50.697
Brian's a clog fanatic and I certainly hate clogging.
00:16:51.602 --> 00:16:55.274
And we could go down and say the Merc Grand Marquis is that it Might be.
00:16:55.274 --> 00:16:59.346
And what happened is we both came up with the same experience.
00:16:59.346 --> 00:17:01.691
So to me that's significant, brian.
00:17:01.691 --> 00:17:10.974
And if we look at another airline thing, one of the things that we talk about in class is that when you think that your engine is stalled, what do we do?
00:17:10.974 --> 00:17:20.394
Intuitively, we know that what we need to do is bring the nose down to gain the thrust, the lift, get the engines going again.
00:17:20.394 --> 00:17:21.960
And what do we do though?
00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.119
We pull up because we're afraid of the ground again.
00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:25.821
And what do we do though?
00:17:25.821 --> 00:17:26.923
We pull up because we're afraid of the ground.
00:17:26.923 --> 00:17:30.772
So your natural reaction on the ABS was to fight the ABS, which was actually doing the work for you.
00:17:30.772 --> 00:17:38.028
But guess what, if we don't have a mental component and we don't have a training component, then it's going to be like gosh, damn, Martian arithmetic.
00:17:38.028 --> 00:17:41.943
So no, the Crown Vic, the Crown Victoria, was the other one that had it.
00:17:42.765 --> 00:17:43.045
Yeah.
00:17:43.045 --> 00:17:45.269
So this is.
00:17:45.269 --> 00:17:54.090
You know, it's always interesting to me, kind of like, why tools are the default, and so it's really important to understand that, how much it affects us as humans.
00:17:54.090 --> 00:17:56.596
Obviously we're sort of primed for technological advancement.
00:17:56.596 --> 00:17:58.968
That's how the human race has stayed alive.
00:17:58.968 --> 00:18:04.432
We've had to adapt to some situation to make it easier for the purpose of survival.
00:18:04.432 --> 00:18:06.407
I mean, it's just ingrained in our DNA.
00:18:07.101 --> 00:18:12.913
But the tools often become this default for a number of fairly simple reasons.
00:18:12.913 --> 00:18:15.608
One tangible ROI right.
00:18:15.608 --> 00:18:22.471
I get a return on investment, it's easier to budget, it's easier to understand the cost and what I'm going to get back from that.
00:18:22.471 --> 00:18:32.702
It's much easier to show off hey, look at this thing, look at what we bought versus we'll look at this new capability of our people, or look at how they think now.
00:18:32.702 --> 00:18:39.644
So it's very, very easy just to point to it and say there's the camera, there's the metal detector, there's this.
00:18:39.644 --> 00:18:40.965
We have this thing now.
00:18:40.965 --> 00:18:55.330
This thing is going to save us, this thing's going to help us, we can rely on it, it's effective, it's been tested, it's been engineered and most of the time, really good and does exactly what it's supposed to do.
00:18:55.330 --> 00:18:57.257
I mean, I'm not bashing the tool or the technology itself.
00:18:57.257 --> 00:19:01.912
I'm bashing how we use and how we interact with it, and so it's easier to point at something.
00:19:01.912 --> 00:19:10.991
And then, just because as humans we have sort of that simplicity bias, right, we gravitate towards solutions that are easier to understand and implement.
00:19:11.441 --> 00:19:14.180
It's easier to equip a person than to train one.
00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:20.432
If I take you right, some random person off the street, and I go, okay, what is this person capable of?
00:19:20.432 --> 00:19:25.942
But then I put you in a uniform and I put gear on you and I give you a weapon system and I give you all this stuff.
00:19:25.942 --> 00:19:30.305
Well, suddenly, okay, well, this person, yeah, they've got all the tools they need.
00:19:30.305 --> 00:19:37.888
It's like giving someone you know, hey, here's your garage, completely built out for everything a carpenter would ever need.
00:19:37.888 --> 00:19:38.729
Wow, this is awesome.
00:19:38.729 --> 00:19:42.490
It's like, do you have any training in being a carpenter, cutting wood or anything?
00:19:42.490 --> 00:19:44.592
No, it's like, well, that's all useless.
00:19:44.592 --> 00:19:51.036
Then I mean, it's that part comes first, and so I'm not trying to oversimplify that.
00:19:51.036 --> 00:19:52.296
It really is that simple.
00:19:52.336 --> 00:20:08.141
Sometimes, and, as you know, with anything, with any organization, it's political safety, right, I can say, and which I would go one step further with political safety and said it just makes us feel better, right, if I get better gear right One.
00:20:08.141 --> 00:20:09.567
It's a better soundbite, it's a better headline.
00:20:09.567 --> 00:20:15.359
It's not going to cause friction with people or unions or culture or accountability.
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:17.648
It's like, look, I did everything I could.
00:20:17.648 --> 00:20:19.748
I got my people the best gear out there.
00:20:19.748 --> 00:20:23.842
It's like okay, and we pat each other on the back for that.
00:20:23.842 --> 00:20:26.743
But it's like okay, and we pat each other on the back for that.
00:20:26.743 --> 00:20:31.686
But it's like sometimes it's just done to make us feel better and a big one.
00:20:31.707 --> 00:20:34.509
There's less accountability with that Meaning.
00:20:34.509 --> 00:20:43.496
There's sort of this I can avoid being introspective and really digging in deep, because tools don't challenge leadership decisions.
00:20:43.496 --> 00:20:44.276
They just don't.
00:20:44.276 --> 00:20:50.111
Tools aren't going to talk back to you, they're not going to say, hey, this is so messed up or we're being used incorrectly.
00:20:50.111 --> 00:20:56.345
The tool is just going to do exactly what it was designed to do, and so there's no feedback loop, there's no feedback mechanism.
00:20:56.345 --> 00:20:57.228
Well, training does that.
00:20:57.228 --> 00:21:01.372
Training actually says, oh shit, are we doing this right?
00:21:01.372 --> 00:21:03.768
Is this the right thing to do at?
00:21:03.788 --> 00:21:07.784
this time, Because now you're going through the steps of doing it Exactly.
00:21:07.784 --> 00:21:09.749
It'll magnify it, It'll shine a light on it.
00:21:09.749 --> 00:21:13.865
So to that end and you brought up a couple of great buckets there, Brian.
00:21:13.865 --> 00:21:26.131
And so if we talk about ROI, simplicity, political safety and introspection, if we just have those to throw some darts at you know Nico's a lieutenant on the fire department, so very proud of my son, Nico.
00:21:26.131 --> 00:21:29.611
It's amazing that he has time to do anything with all the fun he has.
00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:37.592
Yeah, I know, especially now he's got the grandparents to watch the kid and the dog anytime he wants.
00:21:37.592 --> 00:21:38.294
Exactly.
00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:41.426
So now you're reading me, so I'll give you an example.
00:21:41.426 --> 00:21:55.500
Federally mandated political safety one smoke alarms, okay, and we talk about smoke alarms for commercial and residential, but there's a glaring study that's been around for a good long time that says that conventional smoke alarms aren't effective at waking up children.
00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:58.990
In fact, only about 20% of the time are they able to do that.
00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:03.789
Okay, nobody's addressed that yet because the body count's not high enough.
00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:04.992
Do you get what I'm trying to say?
00:22:04.992 --> 00:22:11.313
So right now, the return of investment seems to be enough that, even though it's a political thing, nobody's touching it.
00:22:11.313 --> 00:22:15.327
Well then we talk about introspection, and I wrote down let's get ahead of this.
00:22:15.327 --> 00:22:17.426
Can you imagine the first couple of people?
00:22:17.426 --> 00:22:21.106
And, look, homelessness has been around since there's been people without homes.
00:22:21.106 --> 00:22:28.433
But I mean, if you talk about riding the rail and the old bum, you know cutting into the wood to say, hey, this place has got good stew.
00:22:28.433 --> 00:22:31.184
Or you know, watch it, this guy's got a shotgun or whatever else.
00:22:31.184 --> 00:22:37.726
Cops a long time ago and military, certainly, brian, you'll remember this came up with the idea of refugee camps.
00:22:37.726 --> 00:22:48.806
Refugee camp was a short-term solution for somebody that was displaced by a moment of crisis, and guess what those tend to turn into a long-term.
00:22:48.806 --> 00:22:52.821
Hey, we wanted to get ahead of this, but nobody thought what's the expiration date on this?
00:22:52.821 --> 00:22:54.424
When does this turn into a pumpkin?
00:22:54.424 --> 00:22:56.369
This is no longer a good solution.
00:22:56.369 --> 00:23:06.371
And now the hygiene and this and the waste and the you know, and some of them because of the drug use or the mental health challenge, and what happens is it gets out of control.
00:23:06.371 --> 00:23:12.028
But, brian, at the beginning we all had good intentions, we all patted ourselves on the back, going in right.
00:23:12.028 --> 00:23:14.426
Give you just one more.
00:23:14.426 --> 00:23:19.906
I remember when we had to get a new oven and remember we live in the middle of nowhere, so we had to order the shit from Denver.
00:23:19.906 --> 00:23:31.012
That takes a week to get there by rail and then to find a guy to install this system in our house and there was a little metal flange that he had installed on the ground and a metal flange on the bottom of the stove.
00:23:31.012 --> 00:23:32.526
And I was like, what's that for?
00:23:32.526 --> 00:23:34.667
And he says it's for tip overs.
00:23:34.667 --> 00:23:50.422
He said that the old stoves, you could grab them and when you tried to pull them away from the wall they would tip over and land on you and a lot of people died and so I called horseshit.
00:23:50.422 --> 00:23:54.454
And then you know what I found out A child injures themselves from furniture-related tip-overs every 30 minutes in the US and a death occurs every couple of weeks from this.
00:23:54.454 --> 00:23:56.300
So what it is is we don't know what we don't know.
00:23:56.300 --> 00:24:13.482
So when you're asking about the problem, okay, if we don't invest a little bit of time to really take a look at what problem we're solving, what we end up doing is solving for symptoms or solving for something that's on the periphery, a spiral and is that the best expenditure?
00:24:13.482 --> 00:24:15.268
Look, we're always talking about.
00:24:15.268 --> 00:24:16.971
I'll give you one gosh, damn more.
00:24:16.971 --> 00:24:18.122
You remember this?
00:24:18.564 --> 00:24:23.202
Back in the day I was one of probably five in the state of Michigan police rifle instructors.
00:24:23.202 --> 00:24:30.733
I got certified, went out to agencies and back then it was the M16A2, the M14, the M1 Garand.
00:24:30.733 --> 00:24:33.702
Those were the police semi-automatic rifles that people had.
00:24:33.702 --> 00:24:34.243
Why?
00:24:34.243 --> 00:24:37.560
Because the agencies were getting them from that government plan, remember.
00:24:37.560 --> 00:24:42.642
The government would outsource certain weapon systems and then police agencies could pick them up for zero.
00:24:42.642 --> 00:24:49.775
And then what happened is that some of them someone that went through the training that I went through could carry that weapon on duty.
00:24:49.775 --> 00:24:54.518
And then they came up with the rack where you had the shotgun on one side and you could have your police rifle on the other side.
00:24:55.401 --> 00:24:56.385
You know what the movement is now.
00:24:56.385 --> 00:24:59.690
The movement is now back then, every chief of police hated me.
00:24:59.690 --> 00:25:01.185
Nobody's going to police rifle.
00:25:01.185 --> 00:25:03.641
Why would we ever need this, brian?
00:25:03.641 --> 00:25:04.365
Look around now.
00:25:04.365 --> 00:25:10.153
Agencies are retiring their Rem 870s, saying the shotgun, the police shotgun, is too dangerous.
00:25:10.153 --> 00:25:12.240
We have to go to the police rifle.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:45.749
Now, when it comes to research, research light, when it comes to, I'll vote for the, the police rifle, democratic action, or or the loudest voice in the room, or some new chief or general that wants a point and say I brought the military the p38 that takes lead dog in the sled, and now we get an entire agency retrofitting their vehicles or getting a new decal or doing something else where they think they're on the right path, brian, but at the end of the day, it's the training that's a missing component If you invest in training you invest in your people.
00:25:46.963 --> 00:25:48.211
You invest in the cognitive mind.
00:25:48.211 --> 00:25:52.131
Well, that's the whole debate of training versus tools, right?
00:25:52.401 --> 00:25:55.185
It's what's the real ROI, what's the real return on investment?
00:25:55.185 --> 00:26:21.603
And sometimes you do have to quantify that, and I remember working with the Army years ago when we were implementing and giving the buy-off with the ASAT program, and they had to quantify it and say, well, it'll come down to basically the cost of a new pair of boots, and that's tangible.
00:26:21.603 --> 00:26:22.707
I can, I can understand that, I can, I can use that.
00:26:22.707 --> 00:26:27.123
But the, the, the, the idea about the training versus tools and what the real ROI is is you know, gear is just this, it's an at-bang solution.
00:26:27.123 --> 00:26:28.467
So it it.
00:26:28.467 --> 00:26:34.760
It can enhance your execution after, after a decision has already been made.
00:26:34.760 --> 00:26:37.845
It does not affect whether the decision was appropriate.
00:26:37.845 --> 00:26:47.536
So we're saying, we're saying we're, we're going to, we're going to fast forward, that, okay, this is going to happen again, we're going to likely run into this, so this is how we're going to respond to it.
00:26:47.536 --> 00:26:48.236
Better, right?
00:26:48.236 --> 00:26:58.868
I mean that's basically what you're saying, because buying something that helps improve your reaction time tells me you are accepting that the situation is going to happen again and you're choosing, you're making a choice.
00:26:58.868 --> 00:27:07.288
We're not going to do anything about that, we're just going to wait till it happens again, and then that's what we're going to do, and so that's the concept between training.
00:27:07.288 --> 00:27:08.691
Is that left of bang?
00:27:08.691 --> 00:27:09.492
Investment?
00:27:09.492 --> 00:27:13.299
Right, it teaches when to act, how to assess why certain behaviors emerge, all of that stuff.
00:27:17.490 --> 00:27:21.740
But have you trained people to identify the situation where the tool is even needed?
00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:25.778
Have you shown them to recognize ambiguity, risk and prevent indicators?
00:27:25.778 --> 00:27:31.871
Because if you're, if we're not doing that, then then the tool just becomes an.
00:27:31.871 --> 00:27:34.804
It will eventually become another problem, another issue, another.
00:27:34.804 --> 00:27:35.906
We're eventually going to have to get a new one.
00:27:35.906 --> 00:27:36.809
You remember, oh, I did you send it to me.
00:27:36.809 --> 00:27:38.695
You just remind me because you brought up the smoke problem, another issue, another.
00:27:38.695 --> 00:27:39.739
We're eventually going to have to get a new one.
00:27:39.739 --> 00:27:41.667
You remember, oh, I think did you send it to me?
00:27:41.667 --> 00:27:52.885
It was just remind me, cause you brought up the smoke detector, one, but the fire, the first, the one of the fire alarms, where they said that you know they wanted to cut down on people pulling fire alarms uh uh, you know, just for no reason at all.
00:27:53.286 --> 00:27:54.827
So this one reached in it.
00:27:54.827 --> 00:27:55.128
It.
00:27:55.128 --> 00:27:57.432
It grabbed your arm and locked you in.
00:27:57.432 --> 00:28:01.336
So now you're sitting there watching a school start on fire.
00:28:01.336 --> 00:28:09.182
And then you got to choose Do I let everyone know, or do I burn to death, or do I not pull?
00:28:09.202 --> 00:28:11.307
the fire alarm and save myself.
00:28:11.307 --> 00:28:13.573
Think of that, Brian.
00:28:14.925 --> 00:28:16.755
And we go, that's we go, that's we do.
00:28:16.755 --> 00:28:19.848
Well, that's so stupid, it's like no, but that's the first iteration.
00:28:19.848 --> 00:28:21.481
Or that's how do.
00:28:21.481 --> 00:28:23.190
Well, that's so stupid, it's like no, but that's the first iteration, or that's.
00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:23.973
That's, that's how these things work.
00:28:23.973 --> 00:28:25.520
It's going okay here we got this new thing and we implement it.
00:28:25.520 --> 00:28:32.752
We don't realize, like the second third of effects, we don't say what else could happen from it, and so that that first model, there's going to be errors.
00:28:32.752 --> 00:28:36.163
The, the mcast system in the 737, fixed the problem.
00:28:36.163 --> 00:28:37.630
It just no one knew that.
00:28:37.630 --> 00:28:44.851
It solved the issue that had been created by putting these new, larger engines on and changing where they were at, on the wing or whatever.
00:28:44.851 --> 00:28:50.737
It solved that problem but it created a disaster, it created catastrophe.
00:28:50.737 --> 00:28:53.001
That was all completely avoiding things.
00:28:53.001 --> 00:28:59.613
So it's like those questions, you know, that's the kind of heart of the matter.
00:28:59.773 --> 00:29:03.646
To start, with Yep, and I would add this, so I don't remember the name.
00:29:03.646 --> 00:29:05.951
My memory's gone now, folks, I'm sorry.
00:29:05.951 --> 00:29:07.323
Fentanyl's a hell of a drug, lois.
00:29:07.323 --> 00:29:09.048
What's the gear turning point?
00:29:09.048 --> 00:29:10.842
Called for your TA-50 in the Marine Corps.
00:29:10.842 --> 00:29:19.205
Remember the place that was out at Penn where you had to go and there was a shipping thing and the SIF, the Consolidated Issuing Facility, exactly.
00:29:19.386 --> 00:29:22.770
So you know that I used to for Combat Hunter back in the day.
00:29:22.770 --> 00:29:25.954
I used to have to trek across the country with my little Sharpay Jaeger.
00:29:25.954 --> 00:29:37.635
And Jaeger had a buddy and I can't remember his buddy's name that worked for the Special Forces community I think it was Woolley or Woodsy or Woobie or whatever.
00:29:37.635 --> 00:29:42.545
That was out in Grand Junction and he manufactured boots and sleeping bags and gear specifically for the JSOC community.
00:29:42.545 --> 00:29:49.548
That was the best in the business, and so Jaeger was always getting that shit, you know, at the lead and had insider track information.
00:29:49.548 --> 00:29:56.279
And so I remember we met him out one time at that facility and he was going through some of the gear and he was a really nice guy.
00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:03.954
And so we were standing there and it was a bunch of colonels from the Senate and it was a bunch of generals that were listening in on the conversation.
00:30:03.954 --> 00:30:25.029
And there was one guy and I'll never remember his name, but he was a civilian advisor that came to audit what we were doing and he said you know, the question here is do I want them to have that set of boots or that sleeping bag in their TA-50 when they go to combat or do I want them to have Greg's training before they deploy, and everybody got quiet for a minute and said, well, why are we choosing that?
00:30:25.029 --> 00:30:25.601
And he goes.
00:30:25.601 --> 00:30:32.054
That's exactly what we're choosing for every dollar and minute and classroom that we were taking up.
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:43.384
Brian, you remember when we were working for the Marine Corps and you, shelly, and I were in that shower with the open door, shitters, and that was the only place that we could do the training.
00:30:43.384 --> 00:30:55.317
We were all sitting on MRE boxes inside and projecting on the concrete wall, like at Flores or one of those places, and people were coming in and taking a shower after gym and everything and the cord kept getting unplugged or somebody would get electrocuted.
00:30:55.317 --> 00:30:57.165
And we have to slow down while we're doing CPR.
00:30:57.165 --> 00:31:06.076
We never invested the same money or mindset or anything in training until when, until the body bag stopped coming back.
00:31:06.076 --> 00:31:09.911
So the first time a body bag comes back, everybody goes full speed.
00:31:09.911 --> 00:31:10.795
Let's stop this.
00:31:10.795 --> 00:31:15.690
Whether it's cops, whether it's security, doesn't matter what it is, and let's take all these steps.
00:31:15.750 --> 00:31:31.085
And then there's a flurry of typing and all the shit goes on the news and everybody talks a good story and buys a new decal for the vehicle or red and blue lights or whatever right, and then what happens is time goes by and we forget all those lessons learned and we go back to doing shit the same way that we always did it.
00:31:31.085 --> 00:31:31.906
Until what?
00:31:31.906 --> 00:31:37.186
Until the next emergency comes up and that becomes the historical perspective that we go from.
00:31:37.186 --> 00:31:43.905
Is that, see, I told you we needed that, can opener, you know, new light, whatever else?
00:31:43.905 --> 00:31:45.691
We have to stop thinking like that.
00:31:45.691 --> 00:31:56.051
What we have to do is we have to have a practical answer, because you wrote it, and when you sent me the message that we were doing this, you wrote that no device will ever outperform good judgment under pressure.
00:31:56.701 --> 00:32:00.621
And I highlighted that right that meant more than any of those other things to me.
00:32:00.621 --> 00:32:01.763
Yeah, that's cool.
00:32:01.763 --> 00:32:04.589
Yeah, it does the work of three items.
00:32:04.589 --> 00:32:07.182
Yeah, it's cheap and it's unbreakable.
00:32:07.182 --> 00:32:13.182
But you know what, if you can't think your way out from under the situation, you'll never open the pouch that it's hidden in.
00:32:15.585 --> 00:32:30.132
And the kind of ironic thing to me with a lot of this is everyone is concerned which they should be about liability, and so it's like, okay, well, this is something we're liable for.
00:32:30.132 --> 00:32:39.374
So you knew or should have known, but lawsuits are rarely ever about your lack of hardware.
00:32:39.374 --> 00:32:40.984
That's not where it comes from.
00:32:40.984 --> 00:32:48.433
They're about lack of justification or their lack of training or decision making or all that stuff that we're talking about.
00:32:48.433 --> 00:32:53.913
And these mistakes don't happen because of outdated equipment.
00:32:53.913 --> 00:32:56.059
They're happening because of outdated thinking.
00:32:56.059 --> 00:33:08.247
And then, of course, some of the cases we're bringing up, the mistakes are happening again, not because of outdated equipment, because of new equipment, exactly the new thing, and it's going to cause issues.
00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:10.288
And it's like we come to the solution.
00:33:10.288 --> 00:33:12.548
We go, okay, we slap the table, like you said oh, I think this.
00:33:12.548 --> 00:33:14.366
And, yeah, we like what Bill thinks, and you know what Greg?
00:33:14.366 --> 00:33:21.102
Greg's one of our top guys at that, our top guys at that, so that's what he thinks.
00:33:21.102 --> 00:33:21.604
We're going with it.
00:33:21.604 --> 00:33:30.045
It's like, well, well, hang on, like maybe, greg, your opinion is completely correct, 100, right, and it's the standard and everyone should believe it and that's what you should do.
00:33:30.045 --> 00:33:38.410
But but your solution has nothing to do with the actual problem right it's, it's a solution to something, some extraneous factor, yep.
00:33:38.590 --> 00:33:42.782
Yep, right, and again it goes back to just how you know we are.
00:33:42.782 --> 00:33:49.224
And man, when I anything, I seen something new coming down, right, it's the whole, you know you.
00:33:49.224 --> 00:33:53.422
Okay, great, you gave them a scalpel, but you didn't teach them anything about anatomy.
00:33:53.422 --> 00:33:58.393
You gave them this thing, but you didn't teach them about the context of it.
00:33:58.393 --> 00:34:22.213
So it just becomes this abstract thing that I just point to and you know what it just works, or it's just this thing that we do, and so when something happens and it goes wrong, I'm, I'm fucked, I'm screwed I mean, you know it's like, come on so and I, you know, and obviously we're, we're all about.
00:34:22.813 --> 00:34:29.460
We're all about people and humans and and people I've heard described as is, you know, the human weapon system, and that that's fine.
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:32.588
Just the human system you want to, you call it, that, that's fine.
00:34:32.588 --> 00:34:42.213
But but you know, tools are, are inert objects, they, they, they, the, the person utilizing the tool is, is the weapon system.
00:34:42.213 --> 00:34:46.032
It's not, it's not a gun, it's the person operating the gun.
00:34:46.373 --> 00:34:48.880
It's not, you know, it's a human interaction with it.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.909
And then this goes to how I look at all issues.
00:34:50.909 --> 00:34:58.099
Like you know, it's not that drugs aren't the problem, it's drug addiction and people's interaction with the drugs that are the problem.
00:34:58.099 --> 00:35:00.266
The gun is a piece of metal sitting on a freaking table, so it's the's interaction with the drugs that are the problem.
00:35:00.266 --> 00:35:05.601
The gun is a piece of metal sitting on a fricking table, so it's the human interaction with the gun that the problem is.
00:35:05.601 --> 00:35:07.063
And so it all comes back down to that.
00:35:07.103 --> 00:35:18.547
But when you, when you do that, that you're, you're, you're one, you're assigning responsibility to people, and everyone loves doing that in certain situations and saying you're the problem and this is what it is and they got to go.
00:35:18.547 --> 00:35:29.269
But when it comes to then you accepting responsibility for that, it's like, well, no, if I would have had a better tool or if we would have had this thing, then I wouldn't have done that.
00:35:29.269 --> 00:35:33.041
It's like, no, we're not, we haven't mastered sort of vanilla yet, we haven't mastered basics yet.
00:35:33.041 --> 00:35:43.728
So, so why are we doing this thing when that situation or that, that solution to that problem, we could just avoid the problem in the first place, and I don't think we do that right.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:54.646
We're not very good at well, which is we make little strides or advancements, or people will say it and they'll go, hey, yeah, that's a great concept or idea.
00:35:54.646 --> 00:35:59.382
And then they'll go buy the new thing and it's like, well, wait a minute.
00:35:59.643 --> 00:36:03.405
And tell you to stand down because, well, you don't know, or not even tell you to stand down.
00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:05.849
So I'm like, yeah, we'd love to do that, but we don't have the money.
00:36:05.849 --> 00:36:07.246
It's like, yes, you do.
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:10.222
That's what I'm trying to say, brian.
00:36:10.222 --> 00:36:10.784
Turn it into a choice.
00:36:10.784 --> 00:36:17.501
They turn it into a decision and try to get you on board going you, and try to get you on board going.
00:36:17.501 --> 00:36:19.224
You just don't understand the pressure we're under.
00:36:19.224 --> 00:36:21.844
You know this is an immediate thing that we need to do.
00:36:21.844 --> 00:36:24.367
Yeah, okay, and Wiggies, that's it.
00:36:24.367 --> 00:36:27.208
Wiggies, the best tools in the world for special forces.
00:36:27.208 --> 00:36:33.992
Folks, look up Wiggiescom and if you go there, make sure you give a shout-out to Brian and I Holy shit, my memory is horrible.
00:36:33.992 --> 00:36:35.313
Look back in the day.
00:36:35.313 --> 00:36:42.057
You know that the Edge was the premier self-defense shooting shoot move and communicate academy for everybody.
00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:57.028
And one of the things that we did on the range is we had these little baby paper plates because they were very cheap at the dollar store, the little white ones with the corrugated edge that were probably I don't know six inches around, and then we had much less what would that be?
00:36:57.028 --> 00:37:12.659
Three-inch diameter, and then the other ones that were probably six inch diameter right, no shit about math and a staple gun, and we would staple those up, and what you were taught to do is, from the holster, then from the ready, from whatever position that you were, you had to put a number of rounds in each one of those targets.
00:37:12.659 --> 00:37:38.748
Then we transitioned to a paper target that was significantly bigger, with a small mark that was on it, and it was that hit the small mark with your bullet and then make each subsequent bullet touch the hole from the first bullet, and we would work on that under speed and duress, and then, at the end of the day, we turned the target over and it was a human target with all the X-rings and the 10 rings and everything else on it, and people go holy shit, I can't believe I shot that.
00:37:38.748 --> 00:37:40.112
Well, then guess what we did?
00:37:40.112 --> 00:37:44.150
We deconstructed them by having them shoot at those targets and they couldn't hit a gosh damn thing.
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:46.425
So what's the worst thing when you're shooting?
00:37:46.425 --> 00:38:00.050
It's you, how you think under pressure, the pressure that you put yourself under because the tool that you have, the firearm and the bullets, are manufactured to specification to fire and function the same way every time.
00:38:00.050 --> 00:38:05.349
So if you put them in a machine and a vice and held them there, they would never miss.
00:38:05.349 --> 00:38:07.902
There would have to be a malfunction for them to miss.
00:38:07.902 --> 00:38:11.972
So what's the thing that continues to go wrong with systems?
00:38:11.972 --> 00:38:22.168
And that's the person, the human capital that you have out on the street every day, no matter what that human is doing, whether they're a school security guard or they're working for your HR or anything else.
00:38:22.168 --> 00:38:28.465
It's how they perceive, anticipate, how they react to whatever is going on.
00:38:28.806 --> 00:38:33.864
And, brian, I can tell there's still a problem because we still, after the shooting at the Jewish Museum, what do we get?
00:38:33.864 --> 00:38:35.085
We get, oh, pre-attack indications.
00:38:35.085 --> 00:38:36.768
Museum what do we get?
00:38:36.768 --> 00:38:39.112
We get, oh, pre-attack indications.
00:38:39.112 --> 00:38:40.012
Let's look them up.
00:38:40.012 --> 00:38:47.501
Yeah, okay, let's laminate that.
00:38:47.501 --> 00:38:49.088
Just saying pre-attack, that takes us down the wrong road.
00:38:49.088 --> 00:38:51.579
Understanding anomalous behavior is much more important than whether it's a nine millimeter or 40 cal.
00:38:51.579 --> 00:38:54.788
But why do we fight that Lowest common denominator?
00:38:54.788 --> 00:39:02.733
It's much easier to go to my range instructor, it's much easier to go to my driving instructor or my self-defense instructor and ask them what's the flavor of the day?
00:39:02.733 --> 00:39:04.204
Nobody would argue right now.
00:39:04.204 --> 00:39:06.648
Jiu-jitsu is the flavor of the day for police.
00:39:06.648 --> 00:39:09.244
Okay, is that going to be the same in 11 years?
00:39:09.244 --> 00:39:11.010
Nope, not even close.
00:39:11.010 --> 00:39:12.806
Okay, and I'll predict that right now.
00:39:14.943 --> 00:39:16.204
I won't be around.
00:39:16.244 --> 00:39:18.666
So it's funny how fast it went from.
00:39:18.666 --> 00:39:19.869
It went from.
00:39:19.869 --> 00:39:21.170
You know.
00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:26.436
Hey, all the data and all the research shows that.
00:39:26.436 --> 00:39:37.335
You know, mobility is survivability and if you go to the ground you are X amount more likely to get killed or get into this situation or have something bad happen to you.
00:39:37.335 --> 00:39:39.920
So you don't ever want to, you know, be on the ground.
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:42.106
And then that was quickly reversed.
00:39:42.106 --> 00:39:47.268
You're going to the ground and it's like again what, what, what, what, what?
00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:51.264
just had a complete flip flop there, or is it like what's my argument?
00:39:51.264 --> 00:39:53.269
Constantly with on coffee table?
00:39:53.269 --> 00:39:56.827
Okay, writes a number of books Very popular is out there.
00:39:56.827 --> 00:39:58.606
First of all, he's not a police expert.
00:39:58.606 --> 00:40:01.121
He was you don book.
00:40:01.121 --> 00:40:01.844
It's very popular, he's out there.
00:40:01.844 --> 00:40:02.728
First of all, he's not a police expert.
00:40:02.728 --> 00:40:04.436
You don't qualify as a police expert by speaking to cops or writing a book to cops.
00:40:04.436 --> 00:40:05.179
That's not how that works.
00:40:05.179 --> 00:40:22.150
Second part of that is a lot of his research is based on SLA Marshall's work and when you go back and you start taking a look at faulty research methods, how many people can we in our industry go back and point to where they went and took the wrong exit, brian, and just stayed with it for a good long time?
00:40:22.451 --> 00:40:31.230
And there's stuff people still quote it and you know it's like anybody in situational awareness that says, hey, the OODA loop is the most important thing, cool your jets, romeo.
00:40:31.230 --> 00:40:36.324
The problem is that you're not seeing the big picture because you're too close to it and you're making money.
00:40:36.324 --> 00:40:45.985
The idea is, put your boots on the ground inside of that circle you know doing Kodokan Judo and fight your way out.
00:40:45.985 --> 00:40:46.568
Well, how do you do that?
00:40:46.568 --> 00:40:47.251
Good judgment under pressure.
00:40:47.251 --> 00:40:48.135
And what does that mean Cognitive.
00:40:48.135 --> 00:40:48.597
What does that mean?
00:40:48.597 --> 00:40:54.521
Strategy If you use a good strategy, you will overcome any opponent, and that means predicting and not getting into the situation.
00:40:54.521 --> 00:40:56.382
So what happened with the airlines?
00:40:56.382 --> 00:40:58.445
The airline goes let's just put on a bigger engine.
00:40:58.445 --> 00:41:01.068
And somebody in the back of the room yelled out you know what?
00:41:01.068 --> 00:41:01.628
That's brilliant.
00:41:01.628 --> 00:41:03.210
We already got pilots that can do that.
00:41:03.210 --> 00:41:05.552
And then when they had a problem, what did they do?
00:41:05.552 --> 00:41:06.393
What did they do?
00:41:06.393 --> 00:41:06.873
What was their?
00:41:06.873 --> 00:41:07.936
What was their flash?
00:41:07.936 --> 00:41:08.795
To bang on that, brian.
00:41:18.085 --> 00:41:23.208
Well, let's put another machine on machine and it's like hang on here, we're in a new domain.
00:41:23.288 --> 00:41:31.052
We've lost the plot here on what we're trying to do, and those are some of the common mistakes in any type of resource allocation.
00:41:31.072 --> 00:41:46.331
You brought it up as like, okay, we're choosing between something, or there's a finite amount of resources and time, right, so we have to figure out what's the ROI, what's the best bang for the buck, and so, like we've talked about, the tech solution is always the simple answer.
00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:56.507
But if I'm not also incorporating some sort of training timeline and pipeline and implementation, detailed implementation plan, that could completely backfire.
00:41:56.507 --> 00:41:58.210
And then you know, you, if you.
00:41:58.210 --> 00:42:11.681
So that means if you have a new tool, new piece of gear, but you're still using old SOPs, that 737 is going to crash, like you're, you're, it's going to crash and burn and kill everyone, so so that that's the whole thing.
00:42:11.681 --> 00:42:28.128
So it's like, if you're going to have these hardware upgrades, you have to have sort of or software or, you know, mindset upgrade or training upgrade for the individual, and I think that that's always the necessity, and then from that you don't always necessarily need a hardware upgrade.
00:42:28.128 --> 00:42:39.434
So you're, if you're, if you're cutting out that training to afford some piece of gear, whatever that is like, you have to realize that then and say, well, you have to give something.
00:42:40.155 --> 00:42:41.996
You have to give something up in order to gain something, right?
00:42:41.996 --> 00:42:45.768
Always, no matter what it is, you always have to give something up in order to gain something.
00:42:45.768 --> 00:42:49.731
So what are you gaining versus what you're giving up?
00:42:49.731 --> 00:42:51.644
Are you getting the value there?
00:42:51.644 --> 00:42:54.211
That's just a life you know you could.
00:42:54.211 --> 00:42:56.461
That's just a life motto.
00:42:56.461 --> 00:43:10.556
Right, you have to give something up in order to gain something, but as long as what you're gaining is greater, has greater return on investment, is more effective for you, is a net positive than what you're giving up, then you're doing okay, right.
00:43:10.556 --> 00:43:13.007
You're doing good, right, but that's not always the case in these.
00:43:13.007 --> 00:43:19.170
And so the buy before we analyze it.
00:43:19.170 --> 00:43:21.195
This is going to make us safer.
00:43:21.195 --> 00:43:22.320
That's not a strategy.
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:23.121
It's just not.
00:43:23.382 --> 00:43:26.449
I mean and and and that's the I.
00:43:26.449 --> 00:43:28.393
It's where are you starting with?
00:43:28.393 --> 00:43:28.612
This?
00:43:28.612 --> 00:43:30.728
I think is my biggest issue with this.
00:43:30.728 --> 00:43:43.152
And plus, you know you just talked about all the range stuff and, and I agree and I'm not bashing anything that people are doing, and I certainly don't get into tactics, techniques and procedures, you know.
00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:47.909
But when you say like, hey, you got to be able to think critically under pressure, you got to.
00:43:47.909 --> 00:44:11.711
You know, we got to have this level of skill it's like, well, you're still talking about the human and a lot of that stuff came from especially like the tier one military units, and it's like, well, look, they can think through the situation and think under pressure because it there isn't pressure yet, because they've fired so many gosh darn rounds that they can't miss if they tried right.
00:44:11.711 --> 00:44:16.588
I mean, it's just like the tier one, the special mission units that do a lot of like hostage rescue stuff, like that.
00:44:16.588 --> 00:44:17.960
Right, I've trained and worked with those guys.
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:23.972
And it's like we do so many reps in training that you can, you, you will, you just won't get it wrong.
00:44:23.972 --> 00:44:26.467
You can't because you only know how to do this right thing.
00:44:26.467 --> 00:44:32.086
So when something comes up that's non-standard, you're not overwhelmed in this situation.
00:44:32.086 --> 00:44:34.481
Your cognitive load is less because you've done it so many times.
00:44:34.481 --> 00:44:40.333
Well, guess what that takes years and years and years and years of training experience to get to.
00:44:42.643 --> 00:44:44.387
So the military tier one unit.
00:44:44.387 --> 00:44:49.710
Well, they have that time, they have that luxury, they have that budget, they can afford to do that.
00:44:49.710 --> 00:44:51.887
But most places can't.
00:44:51.887 --> 00:45:00.407
Those are the only types of places that you can get away with that kind of stuff at, and so it's like we're not even at where our failures are really happening.
00:45:00.547 --> 00:45:03.853
And the reason I was bringing up the range stuff is in the decision-making.
00:45:03.853 --> 00:45:08.550
In that too, that has to do with with the, the sort of the cognitive load in those situations.
00:45:08.550 --> 00:45:14.769
But more gear is equals more complexity, which equals more points of failure.
00:45:14.769 --> 00:45:19.664
I mean, the more things you throw at it, the more likely something is to go wrong.
00:45:19.664 --> 00:45:27.496
And so each new tool you introduce, you got to reorient, you got to get reps, you got to have the right context to make it use effectively.
00:45:27.496 --> 00:45:35.914
And so if you're doing all of that additional training that you know you're going to have to do when we get this new thing, is it worth it?
00:45:35.914 --> 00:45:43.934
Or do we just do some new type of training, save our money on the new thing and figure out what the real problem is?
00:45:43.934 --> 00:45:46.909
And it's like that analysis is never done.
00:45:47.539 --> 00:45:48.905
Let's shit in a punch bowl, shall we?
00:45:48.905 --> 00:45:53.751
And let's serve it up fresh to everybody, because we get a lot of trainers that are on here too.
00:45:53.751 --> 00:46:01.507
So if you're a cop and you're a trainer, answer the following question have you ever been on a homicide or a suicide where it was a .22 long rifle?
00:46:02.047 --> 00:46:02.268
Yes.
00:46:02.688 --> 00:46:04.172
Yeah, what about a .32?
00:46:04.172 --> 00:46:05.112
What about a .38?
00:46:05.112 --> 00:46:05.835
What about a .9?
00:46:05.835 --> 00:46:14.766
Go all the way through the different calibers to the worst handgun, which was a single shot pocket Derringer, all the way up to an M98 Barrett with a .50 cal.
00:46:14.766 --> 00:46:16.086
You've seen them all.
00:46:16.086 --> 00:46:22.016
Okay, so it's more important for shot placement, but we all talk about stopping power.
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:24.614
Why do we talk about stopping power?
00:46:24.614 --> 00:46:24.940
Because of fear.
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.385
Why do we talk about it?
00:46:26.385 --> 00:46:26.927
For fear?
00:46:26.927 --> 00:46:30.130
Because we saw the Norinco bank robbery.
00:46:30.130 --> 00:46:31.706
We saw the West Hollywood.
00:46:31.706 --> 00:46:38.766
We saw the agents in Florida get overwhelmed when they went to make the traffic stop and the guys outgunned them.
00:46:38.766 --> 00:46:46.405
We saw the coppers from California Highway Patrol laying on the slab in the morgue and we say never again, that's never going to happen.
00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:53.750
So we have leather gear with higher capacity magazines, and then you know now what we're doing is we're chasing the gear.
00:46:53.750 --> 00:46:56.869
And you know, what we should be chasing is the critical thinking.
00:46:56.869 --> 00:47:10.831
Because if you can outthink a cunning opponent, we know from the pathology that you can kill somebody with a 22 or a 38 or a 32 or a gosh damn slingshot, you know or a nut or a bolt that came off the neighbor's lawnmower.
00:47:10.831 --> 00:47:13.144
So so we understand physics.
00:47:13.144 --> 00:47:14.869
That's something we can wrap our brains around.
00:47:14.869 --> 00:47:22.847
But what we don't understand is how critical thinking will trump any new tool, any new resource that you try to bring to bear.
00:47:23.179 --> 00:47:27.369
The problem, the age-old problem, before deployment in Iraq what's the turning radius on this Vick?
00:47:27.369 --> 00:47:28.552
And none of them knew.
00:47:28.552 --> 00:47:32.028
And how far can it run if you get shot in the oil pan?
00:47:32.028 --> 00:47:33.010
And none of them knew.
00:47:33.010 --> 00:47:39.690
And, brian, you remember that you, teacher and I, we dropped the mic and walked off the range because we didn't want to die with those idiots when they were in combat.
00:47:39.690 --> 00:47:46.027
They were shipping all that gear over and not one person asked the question hey, what happens if we hit and the airbag deploys?
00:47:46.027 --> 00:47:47.811
Is the Vic out of service?
00:47:47.811 --> 00:47:51.690
What happens if we get T-boned in the intersection and the vehicle shuts off?
00:47:51.690 --> 00:47:57.686
You remember those and Brian, that's that now I don't know time, but that's like 20 years ago now that we were asking those questions.
00:47:57.947 --> 00:47:58.608
What happened to that?
00:47:58.608 --> 00:48:13.266
What happened to the curiosity, brian, where all of a sudden somebody in the back, gutenberg, raises their hand and says I'm a Newton, better, this doesn't sound like the best idea, but we've gone past that, because new shit looks cool and it's a race gun.
00:48:13.266 --> 00:48:15.387
And now I want to be like a fast roper.
00:48:15.387 --> 00:48:16.485
That's not your job.
00:48:16.485 --> 00:48:18.987
The more time you're spending on the range, you're not on the road.
00:48:18.987 --> 00:48:22.751
The more time you're spending flipping those tires, you're not out meeting your community.
00:48:22.751 --> 00:48:24.974
Now do I say that they can exist in the same space?
00:48:24.974 --> 00:48:27.757
Of course they can, but that's what you should be working on.
00:48:27.757 --> 00:48:38.206
You should be working on your strategic, operational, tactical plans, not buying new gear and spending all that money you don't have here's it comes down to.
00:48:38.547 --> 00:48:42.472
You know the kind of like well, what questions should we be asking?
00:48:42.472 --> 00:48:44.094
And how do we analyze?
00:48:44.094 --> 00:48:47.429
It how do we get to the kind of how do we actually scope the problem?
00:48:47.429 --> 00:48:59.675
And these are really good questions to ask, but the problem is they have been kind of like you alluded to of your person in the board meeting at the beginning of this talk of how do we scale this.
00:48:59.675 --> 00:49:03.210
It's like wait, you haven't solved, the haven't solved the problem yet, or what?
00:49:03.250 --> 00:49:04.161
problem does this solve?
00:49:04.161 --> 00:49:05.626
It's it's not.
00:49:05.626 --> 00:49:07.170
It's not that, though, like cause.
00:49:07.170 --> 00:49:08.938
What those, those questions do is.
00:49:08.938 --> 00:49:25.615
It forces you to define, clearly define what the problem is, and when you go through the simple thought experiments, you go oh wait a minute, we minute, we're not really approaching this correctly or we're not being clear in this area, and so I always do.
00:49:25.615 --> 00:49:27.340
That, obviously, is what problems are solved.
00:49:27.340 --> 00:49:30.869
But it's like, what is the actual performance gap?
00:49:30.969 --> 00:49:37.132
I actually just even this morning you saw Gary Klein, dr Klein, who we had on, who we love, he posted something about.
00:49:37.132 --> 00:49:53.454
He's like look, when people do historical perspective and they do these case studies or do whatever we're all feeling obsessed with, or we get enlightened to what happened, meaning, okay, here was the time, here's the maps, here's the decision that was made, here's the caliber or here's this, whatever.
00:49:53.454 --> 00:49:59.009
It's like well, but we don't ever get into sort of well, what contributed to these decisions?
00:49:59.009 --> 00:50:00.331
Why did they do that?
00:50:00.331 --> 00:50:02.222
What were all of these contributing factors?
00:50:02.222 --> 00:50:09.282
Because if I can break those down into three biggest ones, I know well these are the three biggest concerns and then I can go back to other situations.
00:50:09.282 --> 00:50:11.126
Well, wait a minute, these are all the same three.
00:50:11.126 --> 00:50:13.862
Wait, these are the same three contributing factors.
00:50:14.663 --> 00:50:15.244
You know what I mean.
00:50:15.244 --> 00:50:17.067
Sometimes it's something you never expected.
00:50:17.067 --> 00:50:22.815
It's dehydration, it's lack of sleep, it's that person didn't understand the graffiti.
00:50:27.344 --> 00:50:27.784
It's something simple.
00:50:27.784 --> 00:50:29.007
Many, many times it's saying what's his name?
00:50:29.007 --> 00:50:30.248
Gabriel Princip.
00:50:30.248 --> 00:50:35.942
You know assassinated Archduke, you know Fernandin, and that started World War I.
00:50:35.942 --> 00:50:37.869
It's like, no, no, that was not, that's not, that was.
00:50:37.889 --> 00:50:38.451
What did that become?
00:50:38.471 --> 00:50:40.215
It's like no, no, that was not.
00:50:40.215 --> 00:50:40.496
That's not.
00:50:40.496 --> 00:50:40.818
That was that.
00:50:40.818 --> 00:50:41.300
What did that become?
00:50:41.300 --> 00:50:47.327
It was no, that was that lit the kindling that was sitting there soaking in gasoline and mounting and mounting and mounting.
00:50:47.327 --> 00:50:52.431
But but all that stuff was the issue, not him carrying out that one single act.
00:50:52.431 --> 00:50:53.583
It wasn't, wasn't that?
00:50:53.583 --> 00:50:54.768
It was all of this other stuff.
00:50:54.768 --> 00:50:56.547
And so it's like what is the performance gap?
00:50:56.547 --> 00:50:59.028
What are the costs of not investing in our people?
00:50:59.028 --> 00:51:04.342
And even the?
00:51:04.342 --> 00:51:04.682
I see it pop.
00:51:04.682 --> 00:51:06.208
I still see it pop up, like once a year on LinkedIn where someone posts the.
00:51:06.208 --> 00:51:06.530
You know it was.
00:51:06.530 --> 00:51:08.115
Maybe it was attributed to Steve Jobs or whoever.
00:51:08.115 --> 00:51:10.014
Probably no one ever said this, but it was.
00:51:10.094 --> 00:51:12.501
It's like clickbait, but it's like, well, where.
00:51:12.501 --> 00:51:16.867
It's like they said, well, you know, hey, we got to train up these people, we got to do all this.
00:51:16.867 --> 00:51:22.275
And it's like, well, what if we train them up and we give them all these skills and all these resources and they leave and they go to another company?
00:51:22.275 --> 00:51:25.248
And the response is okay, well, what if we do all that stuff?
00:51:25.248 --> 00:51:28.481
Or what if we don't do any of that and they stay here and they don't leave?
00:51:28.481 --> 00:51:31.704
And it's like, oh, yeah, I get that.
00:51:31.704 --> 00:51:32.786
You have to look at it in that way.
00:51:32.786 --> 00:51:36.309
But where these questions?
00:51:36.309 --> 00:51:39.672
Where do most of our critical incidents begin and where do they go wrong?
00:51:39.672 --> 00:51:41.574
Like, where did it actually begin?
00:51:41.574 --> 00:51:42.414
Where did this start?
00:51:42.414 --> 00:51:44.942
Because we often get laser focused on just that.
00:51:44.942 --> 00:51:45.565
Here's the problem.
00:51:45.565 --> 00:51:47.675
It's like no, no, no, no Wind, that tape back.
00:51:47.675 --> 00:51:48.177
So where?
00:51:48.197 --> 00:51:48.719
did that begin?
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:50.244
I love the NTSB, brian.
00:51:50.244 --> 00:51:50.583
Why?
00:51:50.583 --> 00:51:54.152
Because they're the most introspective agency that we know.
00:51:54.152 --> 00:51:55.461
They're constantly going.
00:51:55.461 --> 00:51:56.702
How many hours did he fly?
00:51:56.702 --> 00:51:57.664
What plane was it?
00:51:57.664 --> 00:51:59.447
What was the barometric pressure?
00:51:59.447 --> 00:52:01.510
What were the weather conditions at the station?
00:52:01.510 --> 00:52:02.271
What was the radio?
00:52:02.271 --> 00:52:03.813
Look, we never do that.
00:52:03.813 --> 00:52:07.251
What we do is we get a PIO to stand in front of people and go look he had a gun.
00:52:07.251 --> 00:52:08.336
Look he had a gun.
00:52:08.336 --> 00:52:11.704
Look here, while we slow down the tape, he had a gun and turned on our officers.
00:52:11.704 --> 00:52:12.003
Why?
00:52:12.003 --> 00:52:16.911
Because, again, fear drives how we're, after action, reviewing those incidents.
00:52:16.911 --> 00:52:18.132
Yeah, and we see that.
00:52:18.132 --> 00:52:19.414
We see that every day.
00:52:19.755 --> 00:52:29.773
You I'll tell you what you epitomize this discussion when you sent me if you removed all your high speed gear, would your people still make good decisions?
00:52:29.773 --> 00:52:30.695
You know what?
00:52:30.695 --> 00:52:35.605
If you're listening to the sound of my voice, write down Brian's words and ask yourself that question.
00:52:35.605 --> 00:52:43.974
And then ask a friend that question If you removed all the high-speed tack gear, all that cool stuff that you got, would your people on the road still be making good decisions?
00:52:43.974 --> 00:52:50.356
Would your people in the classroom, would your employee at the cashier or at customer service?
00:52:50.356 --> 00:52:51.710
Because that's what it applies to.
00:52:51.710 --> 00:52:54.170
It applies to improving yourself, right.
00:52:54.992 --> 00:53:02.675
Well, yeah, because it's like okay, if you got rid of all of the tools, would the person still be able to solve the problem?
00:53:02.675 --> 00:53:04.485
Would they still be able to do it?
00:53:04.485 --> 00:53:08.054
But here's the thing people will not.
00:53:08.054 --> 00:53:13.829
How many organizations do we work with where they are unwilling to answer that or ask that question?
00:53:13.829 --> 00:53:14.570
Because now what?
00:53:14.570 --> 00:53:16.969
Well, now I know, now I know what the problem is.
00:53:16.969 --> 00:53:18.831
Now I'm liable for it if something happens.
00:53:18.831 --> 00:53:20.365
We have staffing, people we still need.
00:53:20.786 --> 00:53:26.365
It's like, well, that's not, you just identified a problem, like you give.
00:53:26.365 --> 00:53:27.509
You always give the example.
00:53:27.509 --> 00:53:33.407
You know everyone's got someone when things go wrong and he got person a is on it.
00:53:33.407 --> 00:53:34.530
It's like who's there?
00:53:34.530 --> 00:53:38.085
Oh, person a, send them everything they need, just just do what they tell you.
00:53:38.085 --> 00:53:39.007
Wait, who's there?
00:53:39.007 --> 00:53:42.275
Oh, person b, get them out of there and go send person a.
00:53:42.275 --> 00:53:54.255
It's like, well, if you already know that, right now you know you've identified what the fucking problem is and and so you actually are liable now, because if you can go back and say that, and you knew, then it's dead weight.
00:53:54.255 --> 00:54:01.076
At that point they're not providing a value to the organization.
00:54:02.547 --> 00:54:07.038
I had one personal situation I'd like to share because you know I want to tell my story.
00:54:07.038 --> 00:54:10.856
So here we are in Afghanistan working with the Ministry of Interior.
00:54:10.856 --> 00:54:32.253
So here we are in Afghanistan working with the Ministry of Interior and they say listen, working with our coalition partners, we'd like to develop a patch, because patches were more important than coins back then.
00:54:32.253 --> 00:54:32.974
And let's have a good design patch.
00:54:32.974 --> 00:54:35.719
And every single one of them had a rifle and a lightning bolt and a machete and an explosion and all those other things.
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:36.619
And I said, well, what about Shauna Bashana?
00:54:36.619 --> 00:54:37.601
What about standing shoulder to shoulder?
00:54:37.601 --> 00:54:39.565
And they go okay, well, we can put that on there, of course, but what else can we put on?
00:54:39.565 --> 00:54:44.907
I go wheelbarrow and a shovel and a rake, and they laughed me out of the room, brian, they laughed me out of the room.
00:54:44.927 --> 00:54:46.849
A couple of weeks later I get a call and go hey, can you come back and see General?
00:54:46.849 --> 00:54:47.771
I can't pronounce his name.
00:54:47.771 --> 00:54:52.715
And I go, yeah, and we go back and here's all the reps in the room and they go hey, we like that patch design.
00:54:52.715 --> 00:54:53.536
You know what.
00:54:53.536 --> 00:54:57.001
We are so hung up on being the force.
00:54:57.001 --> 00:55:00.452
You know that in other countries, when you see a shield, that means defense.
00:55:00.452 --> 00:55:07.686
When you see that on an American patch, that means we're going to use the shield to beat you down and then hook you up and drag you out of there.
00:55:07.967 --> 00:55:09.409
You know, it's all in perception.
00:55:09.409 --> 00:55:16.326
And the perception of having the high speed equipment is for you to placate the people that work with you and for them not to be scared.
00:55:16.326 --> 00:55:22.146
And right now, take a big dose of SDF up because you're saying I'm not afraid when I go on the road.
00:55:22.146 --> 00:55:22.827
Of course you are.
00:55:22.827 --> 00:55:24.873
If you weren't, you wouldn't have all that stuff.
00:55:24.873 --> 00:55:28.090
You would invest in your A game, and your A game is critical thinking.
00:55:28.090 --> 00:55:29.693
That's the performance gap.
00:55:29.693 --> 00:55:30.335
You know what?
00:55:30.335 --> 00:55:40.614
Report writing talking to people walking up and carrying on a conversation, brian, that's where your money is right there, because if you can do that and you can shoot reasonably well, you'll be fine.
00:55:40.614 --> 00:55:44.054
Right, but that's not where we start thinking, would you agree?
00:55:44.054 --> 00:55:47.606
I mean, you're an expert, a subject matter expert.
00:55:47.686 --> 00:55:57.521
I am but and that goes back to a lot of that really has to do with how we measure things right.
00:55:57.521 --> 00:56:07.572
And there's a great I don't know who said it, I think John Peters uses it a lot where it's you know, not everything that we measure matters and not everything that matters gets measured.
00:56:07.572 --> 00:56:11.836
And so how do you do that?
00:56:11.836 --> 00:56:21.746
And this goes into even the PT standards, physical training and how that stuff changes, and everyone's like, well, you should be able to do this and you should have to.
00:56:21.746 --> 00:56:31.048
It's like in no way let me be very clear in no way do any of those exercises and the time you get on those exercises translate to how you will perform your job under pressure.
00:56:31.048 --> 00:56:31.972
You just don't.
00:56:31.972 --> 00:56:37.755
Obviously, you want to be in better shape, you want to do this, but that's not the thing.
00:56:37.755 --> 00:56:45.088
But because I can measure it, because I can time your mile run, greg, because I can count how many pull-ups you can do, Well, it's easy for me.
00:56:45.088 --> 00:56:50.324
But I can measure or I can score your target.
00:56:50.324 --> 00:56:51.505
Right, I can score that.
00:56:51.505 --> 00:56:58.539
I can say, well, here's the number and that's either a pass or that's a fail, or that's need retraining or new this, and so it's very simple.
00:56:58.539 --> 00:57:02.072
It's very, very, very, very fucking simple, right?
00:57:02.072 --> 00:57:02.733
Is it inches?
00:57:02.733 --> 00:57:03.534
Is it meters?
00:57:03.534 --> 00:57:04.677
Is it money?
00:57:04.677 --> 00:57:05.699
How are we measuring this?
00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.847
It's like, well, what about outcomes?
00:57:08.427 --> 00:57:11.409
And this has gone even, especially with policy too.
00:57:11.409 --> 00:57:19.856
I mean, how many times have you seen like a politician or someone be like, oh and we spent this much money on this initiative?
00:57:19.856 --> 00:57:22.498
It's like that's not a measurement of performance.
00:57:22.498 --> 00:57:26.460
The amount of money you spent, that's the cost.
00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:28.443
That's not measuring the outcome.
00:57:28.443 --> 00:57:30.547
What did we get from that?
00:57:30.547 --> 00:57:31.530
What came of doing this?
00:57:31.530 --> 00:57:33.927
What came from and and and?
00:57:33.927 --> 00:57:37.637
Because it's a little bit more complex, people stay away from it and they go.
00:57:37.637 --> 00:57:38.847
I can't justify that in a budget.
00:57:38.847 --> 00:57:46.333
It's like, well, if you're thinking in terms of yearly budgets, then you're fucked, you're, there will be zero improvement.
00:57:46.996 --> 00:57:50.027
You know and that's my biggest thing about any plan coming in, especially I always.
00:57:50.027 --> 00:57:52.856
You know, politicians are just a great example.
00:57:52.856 --> 00:58:04.541
No one goes running for the mayor of a metropolitan city saying here's my 10-, 15 and 20-year plan for reducing crime in the city.
00:58:04.541 --> 00:58:06.510
Not one fucking one does that.
00:58:06.510 --> 00:58:06.731
Why?
00:58:06.731 --> 00:58:08.507
Because, well, that's kind of hard to measure.
00:58:08.507 --> 00:58:23.757
But I can point at this number thing right here, even though that might have to do with the well, we were on a lockdown and things changed and then the economy changed and that's like all of these extraneous factors might have been the issue, that not anything that you did.
00:58:23.757 --> 00:58:27.155
In fact, some of the stuff that you did may have had a negative impact on it.
00:58:27.155 --> 00:58:33.862
So we don't know how to measure this stuff, and that's just very.
00:58:33.862 --> 00:58:39.016
Then it becomes implicitly hard to understand as a human what I'm getting out of something, because I have to see it.
00:58:39.344 --> 00:58:42.313
I have to feel it, even our private sector clients, greg, what did we hear?
00:58:42.313 --> 00:58:44.047
From someone who said you know what?
00:58:44.047 --> 00:58:47.001
I was hesitant, I didn't buy into any of this stuff.
00:58:47.001 --> 00:58:50.110
But you know what Everyone said you guys were the best and you got to bring them in.
00:58:50.110 --> 00:58:54.278
And, oh my God, I am completely bought in.
00:58:54.278 --> 00:58:56.753
I never knew we were going to get this much out of it.
00:58:56.753 --> 00:58:58.190
I never knew that was going to happen.
00:58:58.190 --> 00:58:59.094
Because and why?
00:58:59.094 --> 00:59:00.027
Because?
00:59:00.047 --> 00:59:01.231
they've never seen anything like that.
00:59:01.231 --> 00:59:09.476
You get results and they saw tangible results, Brian, last night on the news Blagojevich from Illinois, you're right, oh boy.
00:59:09.476 --> 00:59:11.311
Blago Lagogevich from Illinois.
00:59:11.311 --> 00:59:17.027
You're right, oh boy, he was on pointing and counseling people and taking them to task and I'm thinking, wow, did you learn?
00:59:17.068 --> 00:59:17.911
that when you were in prison.
00:59:17.911 --> 00:59:19.333
Well, that's the thing.
00:59:19.333 --> 00:59:21.869
So here's the thing about him.
00:59:21.869 --> 00:59:30.452
He was kind of railroaded by political corruption and he was also a part of political corruption.
00:59:30.452 --> 00:59:36.592
So it's like you can't be the perpetrator and the victim Like that doesn't work.
00:59:37.204 --> 00:59:39.673
But what I thought and wrote down when I was watching him last night.
00:59:39.673 --> 00:59:49.375
And you're spot on and I love that Brian's a Chicago boy when he talks about laws and legal and bending rules and stuff, I listen because I understand he's got a different perspective.
00:59:49.375 --> 01:00:03.780
But I was thinking last night when I was watching him that you know what you will see an increase in your home security if you only have a sign that says this property is protected by so-and-so alarm system.
01:00:03.780 --> 01:00:13.360
It's a fact and if you put that up okay, if you close your gate, just latch your gate when you go to work it will increase your safety and security at home.
01:00:13.925 --> 01:00:23.398
But, folks, if your life depends on it, at the end of the day it's just a fucking sign and somebody is going to call you on it and somebody is going to climb that fence and they're going to poke their head in your house.
01:00:23.398 --> 01:00:25.773
So are you prepared for that?
01:00:25.773 --> 01:00:37.438
So all these talismans, all these totems that you're waving out there, hey, this thing is going to be it, it's the, there's going to be a new thing, and guns and ammo is going to copy on it and car and driver.
01:00:37.925 --> 01:00:40.250
And now you're going to say was that?
01:00:40.250 --> 01:00:46.391
Did we save a life by spending that 1.8 or 3.6 or whatever million dollars?
01:00:46.391 --> 01:00:53.934
And and I'll shut up after I say this Do you remember the gosh damn camouflage pattern for the Navy that made it impossible if you fell?
01:00:53.974 --> 01:00:54.976
overboard To see.
01:00:55.737 --> 01:00:57.570
Okay, do I need to say more?
01:00:57.570 --> 01:00:59.449
And anybody out there that's in?
01:00:59.449 --> 01:01:06.336
The Navy thank you Okay, but remember we used to be role players and it was like what the hell is that?
01:01:06.336 --> 01:01:10.101
Well if somebody thought that one out come on, come on.
01:01:10.123 --> 01:01:10.403
Where are we?
01:01:10.403 --> 01:01:11.427
Where are we in?
01:01:11.447 --> 01:01:16.317
this and you know what, if you removed all that high-speed gear, are your people still making good decisions?
01:01:16.317 --> 01:01:22.606
And if they're not, you're wrong and it's okay to throw in the towel and back up and start over Tabula rasa.
01:01:22.606 --> 01:01:25.913
Reset is not a bad place to be sometimes.
01:01:28.538 --> 01:01:38.487
Yeah, and you know again, I'm not.
01:01:38.487 --> 01:01:39.672
You know again, I'm not, you know, anti-gear or anti-new tech.
01:01:39.672 --> 01:01:39.972
I, I, just I.
01:01:39.972 --> 01:01:45.753
I don't think a lot of places need to be concerned with it, meaning some of those things are going to work themselves out over time and there's always going to be a new thing.
01:01:45.753 --> 01:01:50.990
You don't have to be on top of every little thing that's that's happening in new things.
01:01:50.990 --> 01:01:58.510
It's just not because some of them are going to go away and some of them are going to stick around, and when it sticks around, go, okay, I guess I'll use that then.
01:01:58.510 --> 01:02:06.610
I mean, it's not a lack of innovation or not being forward thinking, it's going well.
01:02:06.610 --> 01:02:12.840
Here's what we know works and that's going to be the bedrock foundation of everything that we do.
01:02:13.585 --> 01:02:19.436
And then, as new things come in, right, I can ask the appropriate questions, adopt them.
01:02:19.498 --> 01:02:31.989
If I think it'll help me in the way we do things, because it should come from you, how many places have we been where it's like, well, you know, we got to get them better at this and their decision making needs to get a little bit better?
01:02:31.989 --> 01:02:32.364
And you know it's difficult because it's complex?
01:02:32.364 --> 01:02:33.001
It's like, well, you know, we got to get them better at this and their decision-making needs to get a little bit better.
01:02:33.001 --> 01:02:35.092
And you know it's difficult because it's complex.
01:02:35.092 --> 01:02:44.375
It's like here does this decision, this thing you're about to do, is it aligned with the vision, the mission and the values of your organization?
01:02:44.375 --> 01:02:48.152
Oh no, okay, then don't fucking do it, you got it.
01:02:48.152 --> 01:02:51.070
Or change the vision, mission and values, or change We'll fucking do it, you got it.
01:02:51.070 --> 01:02:53.275
Or change the vision, mission and values, or change what it is that you're doing.
01:02:53.275 --> 01:02:57.471
All right, if that's what you have, because then you'll identify oh wait, a minute, we're not doing things correctly.
01:02:57.471 --> 01:03:42.485
We actually do have to do this, and it's you are an influencer, Brian no-transcript.
01:03:42.505 --> 01:03:46.494
Stay proficient and qualified in different weapon systems, right?
01:03:46.494 --> 01:04:02.918
So it was a whole bunch of different ones, and so the way I shot was like with my supporting hand, which is my left hand, I had a specific way, which a lot of people do, and I would sort of have my thumb pointed straight out accompanying that side or accompanying my hand if it was in a pistol.
01:04:02.918 --> 01:04:19.164
And it's like because people go, well, you can hold it this way and then you can move this over and you can move your arm here and do that, and I go, yeah, that's great, but here's the thing this manner in which I hold this pistol is the exact same way I can hold that M4 and that Rem A70 and that M203.
01:04:19.164 --> 01:04:27.853
And so I learned one way and I can use it in a whole bunch of different weapon systems in different situations, absolutely.
01:04:28.847 --> 01:04:33.744
So it's not go, I don't have to think about it, it becomes the way I do things.
01:04:33.744 --> 01:04:46.760
And it was like such a simple way for some people to see like, oh, I get it, if you do thing one way and you can use that in a multitude of of uses, that's better than learning 17 different things or or 10 different ways of doing something or all these different.
01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:49.572
It's like, dude, you gotta simplify, you gotta take the, the.
01:04:49.572 --> 01:04:55.012
It's like it's like your first deployment or first time ever doing something, compared to like later in life.
01:04:55.012 --> 01:04:59.336
Like you know, my first deployment, dude, I had every mag pouch filled.
01:04:59.336 --> 01:05:04.036
I had a drop, you know mag pouch that I carried and it was on man.
01:05:04.036 --> 01:05:06.590
And then years later I was like hey, do you have a?
01:05:06.590 --> 01:05:11.108
Anyone got a rifle or pistol for me to carry, cause I would love to have one?
01:05:11.108 --> 01:05:12.550
Anyone got a rifle or pistol for?
01:05:12.570 --> 01:05:13.773
me to carry Because I would love to have one.
01:05:13.773 --> 01:05:14.835
It's like get rid of all that stuff.
01:05:14.835 --> 01:05:16.659
Think about that with your TA-50.
01:05:16.659 --> 01:05:28.172
I remember every time that I deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, the military sent me with every piece of issued gear that I had.
01:05:28.172 --> 01:05:32.559
And there was me with front and back and duffel bag, drag and everything else, until I got to my unit that was going to start my rotation through that country.
01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:33.519
And guess what I did?
01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:38.612
I threw everything in a Connex and when I was flying back out of that country they reintroduced me with all that gear.
01:05:38.925 --> 01:05:42.856
It was not one of those items I ever used, so turning that shit back in was pretty easy.
01:05:42.856 --> 01:05:52.815
What happens is you're taking up part of my load that could be used for other things salient things that we sat down and thought about and said this trumps that.
01:05:52.815 --> 01:05:55.112
No fight there.
01:05:55.112 --> 01:05:56.809
And then the second part is Brian.
01:05:56.809 --> 01:06:09.353
A cognitive efficiency makes it easier for me when, in a situation, it takes items off of the table so I can consider the products at hand and come up with a strategy not be reactive mode all the time.
01:06:10.045 --> 01:06:12.893
So these are the problems we need to be solving, buddy.
01:06:12.893 --> 01:06:13.615
This is it.
01:06:14.965 --> 01:06:23.630
And I guess my kind of final word would just be that you know, if you can afford the gear and the training, great.
01:06:23.630 --> 01:06:29.375
But if you have to choose, man, I just always choose people, always bet on people.
01:06:29.375 --> 01:06:31.431
I agree, they're going to be there anyway.
01:06:31.431 --> 01:06:33.228
They're always.
01:06:33.228 --> 01:06:39.817
They always have to have a person there, so why wouldn't you want to invest in that individual as much as possible?
01:06:41.047 --> 01:06:51.925
And Brian, if I had to give a final quote because it's a great episode, I love talking about it it would be to quote Balin out loud it's raining vaginas, so I mean that just epitomizes how I'm thinking about it.
01:06:51.925 --> 01:06:52.949
I'm not familiar with that one.
01:06:53.605 --> 01:07:03.655
That's a young girl that has Tourette's and a great show, and every once in a while she slips a zinger out in the public and just you watch how people get fallen in with that.
01:07:03.655 --> 01:07:05.250
So I'll send you a photo.
01:07:05.250 --> 01:07:05.630
Yeah, really.
01:07:05.965 --> 01:07:12.407
Yeah, well, you lost me on that one, I'm going to have to look that up on YouTube after this, unless it's not on YouTube Alien Out Loud, my favorite show now.
01:07:13.429 --> 01:07:14.168
Oh my gosh.
01:07:14.168 --> 01:07:18.251
All right, I'm going to have to do my homework on that one, but all right.
01:07:18.251 --> 01:07:19.211
Well, we covered a lot.
01:07:19.211 --> 01:07:25.275
If anyone obviously has any questions, just reach out to us humanbehaviorpodcasts at gmailcom.
01:07:25.275 --> 01:07:26.076
Go to the Patreon.
01:07:26.076 --> 01:07:27.016
There's more on there.
01:07:27.016 --> 01:07:29.458
You can get recap of everything we talked about.
01:07:29.458 --> 01:07:34.619
You can ask us questions and give us ideas on there or things that you were thinking about.
01:07:34.619 --> 01:07:37.461
And yeah, I think that's about it, but we covered a lot.
01:07:37.481 --> 01:07:38.943
There's a return on your request, but I appreciate everyone.
01:07:38.943 --> 01:07:40.402
Yeah, yeah.
01:07:40.625 --> 01:07:44.115
I appreciate everyone for tuning in and for our Patreon members who support us.
01:07:44.115 --> 01:07:48.351
Keep up the suggestions and questions we like hearing from you all.
01:07:48.351 --> 01:07:55.931
Thank you all for listening to the episode and then if you could give us a like or a thumbs up or rating in the best way.
01:07:55.931 --> 01:08:00.076
Even if you can't do the Patreon, just share an episode with a friend, say, hey, check these guys out.
01:08:00.076 --> 01:08:01.998
It really helps us out a lot in getting the message out.
01:08:01.998 --> 01:08:04.000
So I would appreciate that.
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:10.414
But thanks everyone, and don't forget that training changes behavior.