David: hi! Are you here for the
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Right.
David: fun question? Me too. The Fun Question, a show where we explore the strange and powerful ways people engage in a life of fun. I'm your host, Dr. David Thomas, the professor of fun, recording live from my hidden lair and back for another week of playful exploration. My guest today is Laura Pearson, founder and head geek at Brand Geek, a law firm focused on, you guessed it, brand protection. Lara has worked with a wide variety of mission-driven brands, including one that caught my eye, Burning Man. Today I did not invite her on to talk about trademark law, but instead to share about her 20 years of participating in the Burn. What is Burning Man and why does it draw over 70,000 people each year to build art and hang out in a temporary city built in the Nevada desert? Part family campout, part art festival, part utopian hippie community, part survivalist compound. And a lot, lot more. What keeps the Burning Man going? And most importantly, what makes it fun? Welcome, Laura. Let's talk about Burning Man.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yay. Thank you for having me.
David: So 20 years is a long time to do anything. maybe take us back to your first Burning Man. Why did you go to this and what did you think you were getting yourself into that first year?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well I don't research things very very much when it comes
David: Ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): to what am I gonna go do next. My mother would call that my impulsivity. but I I had heard lots of friends had talked about it 'cause I live in Ta live north Lake Tahoe, which is very close, relatively speaking, to Burning Man. where they hold Burning Man. And so I was working at a law firm and a friend of mine there decided she told me she and her husband were going. And a lot of my friends that I saw live music with and that I would maybe consider more not more playful, differently play like playful more in the way I am that go to festivals, et cetera. My friend and her husband were very loyally and more for football games and just kind of a I I wouldn't necessarily picture them at Burning Man, but when she said she was gonna go, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go. That sounds that that that even though my friends seem scared, if this lady thinks it's okay, it must be cool. so we went. This was two thousand two and my husband and I drove out in our little RAV4 with a ten by ten tent and a sorry, ten by ten tent and and and tarp and we've set it all up as our little camp in a corner and people looked like like you know, what are you doing? Is that your whole camp? And we were like, yeah, you know, and they were like, okay, we'll we'll keep an eye on you. And then night fell and we wandered out into what's called the playa. And it's it's dark except that there's The amount of things that people do with light, make with light, the the Golden Gate Bridge drives by and I was like, what in the you know, like the the next thing you know, like a rhinoceros comes by and flames come out of its nose and I'm like, what is this is insane. And lights everywhere and like the the the playfulness of the place. and and the mystery of it and the things to explore and the people to meet and my goodness, I I even though we had brought entirely inadequate equipment down to you you need a bicycle and now everybody has e-bikes. I don't, but ever a lot of people have e-bikes. we had razor scooters. Like you can't traverse that area with a razor scooter. Or you build an art car. Like you you take a vehicle
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): that's a you know some some type of vehicle from a golf cart to a a school bus to bigger and you have to completely transform it into art. That moves around and ideally they can take other humans on it as well. And so there's a flaming octopus, there's a cloud bank full of clouds. There's I mean it's the things that people do and and not just like think of, but back in O2, you had to think about it, draw it out, you know, make little models, build it, take it apart, move it to the desert, redo it. just the wow, like that what people would commit themselves to. to doing that to provide enjoyment for themselves and others. And it works. I mean it what a formula.
David: So so you showed up and and like when you were there, I mean it's about seventy thousand people now. How big was it the first year you went? It was still pretty huge.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I mean, it it was thirty five thousand, I think. So and I think yeah, it's now down seventy, but it had been up to eighty at its at its peak, burning man. And honestly to me, it it always just felt enormous. Like I didn't I
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): really don't feel like I felt the change in number of humans from thirty five thousand to s eighty thousand back down to seventy thousand. It's it's it's not that big of an of of a square footage of an area of the whole event. But you're doing it all on bicycle and you're doing it on bicycle like ten hours a day, you know, or you have
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): another car. So like I didn't feel the change in the terms of like how many humans so a few hundred humans feels like a lot. I live in the mountain. but I I think the scale of art has increased. The the scale of fireworks for the man, the scale of the explosions, 'cause things do like, you know, they have propane explosions and things blow up.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): that sounds very violent and unconstructive, but it's it's I mean, it's artistic. It's they don't just bloop, you know.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and yeah, it anyways just wow.
David: And and so for people that haven't been there, I I mean, you know, I think you if you see pictures, it looks like, you know, a bunch of kind of half dressed crazy people in the desert, which I think is authentic to it. But the the city itself is is organized, it has streets. I mean, there there's there's rules and order. I mean, it operates as this little week long, I mean large scale city dedicated to what? Art and self expression. And that's kind of the frame, right? As and and then what happens there is really up to what the people bring with them in their heads or in their cars or in their trucks. And so
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yeah, you know.
David: yes, okay. So your first year, you're basically went to a campo. Tell me about the next year. Did you go, we need more stuff, we need more, more,
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Okay.
David: more glitter, more streamers, more laser beams. I don't know what did you bring the second year?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): so that's a great question. my first inclination is like no glitter, no streamers. So
David: sorry, yeah, yeah. Nothing that's right. We gotta say, it's it's eco friendly, right? Everything that goes to Burning Man gets picked up and taken back. So the last thing you ever wanna do is have to be sweeping glitter up off the desert floor, right?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): my gosh. Yeah. And and in the winter it's a sensitive environment with these little fairy shrimp because it fills up as a lake. and they do their, you know, they do their evolutionary thing and then it goes back to a playa, which again is not like saying maybe I didn't say that. The playa
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): substance is is like baby powder during the day and then if it gets wet it turns into clay. It's a phenomenal experience. yeah, well half dressed is is because it's very warm.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): It's you know, it's in the nineties and hundreds and and you'd be silly to try to I mean some people have to cover up because of the son, but like but so I I remember telling an attorney that I with whom I was working on a litigation matter that I was going to Burning Man and he actually came and visited me and I had like multicolor ribbon braided into my hair and and had my hair b like, you know, extended and and but I wasn't doing any like I wasn't going to meet clients, I was only going to the burn and I remember him being like,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): It's all What did he say? Like it's all druggies and I forgot his other word, but like you know, really negative connotation. And I was like, actually it's
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like doctors and lawyers and professors and scientists
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and you know, it's the right brain, left brain people that are like you know, not zero-sum mentality, it it's it's growth mindset and you know, it it like there's a certain self-selecting, certainly, but but character of human that will is willing to endure the harshness of the physical environment from the consistency of the playa to the heat. And then sometimes at night it can be a hundred and two in a day and like in the forties at night. So like you
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): also have to have clothing for, you know, however long you're out there. Like I'm out there this year it'll only be twelve days, but a lot of people are out there at least for you know, fourteen to twenty days that are just
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): making their camp, making their art and then going home. They're not like part of the putting on the event, you know, they're not part
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): of the Burning Man org or its contractors. it's it's a big it's a big commitment to play, honestly. But it's
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): so i it there's a saying the playa provides, which and the people will say, Well you you don't get the burn you want, you get the burn you need, meaning, like you said, there is a lot of harshness of the environment. There is, if you're at all sensory sensitive of in any form. It is it
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): is a lot to manage, you know? And so there's there's a lot of physical and and you know, potentially emotional challenges that you have to face to be there. And then if you know, if you're open and and feel safe, then you have these magical amazing experiences with incredible humans who are like all out there to connect with each other, to con to, you know, see art, to be inspired, to leave the monkey mind behind and just immerse and engage and and you know, all the things that we know about about play and the neuroscience of play and the And the endorphins and you know, all the chemicals get released. I mean it it my goodness, I just I like get truth from thinking about it. It it is a
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): unique place that can't be replicated. but there but there are there's smaller burns. Like I think you had asked me at some point in our relation you know, our friendship,
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like what if people can't get to the Nevada desert or and so there's
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): it it's expanding. And so a big part of the Burning Man ecosystem now are what they call regionals, regional burns. A lot of Burning Man camps or Burning Man groups will do what they call decompressions. So a decompression is is an independently organized, totally unrelated to Burning Man. And then the regionals, Burning Man is kind of more like a TEDx talk. You know, you have TED that's
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): in the main thing, Burning Man in the desert. And then the regional burns are much more akin to a TEDx talk than the decompressions which are just a group of friends who all burn together, like generally after they've burned, they'll gather in whatever Oakland has one I think, or sometimes it's mid year, but it's a gathering of burners that that are, you know, using a brand that's adjacent to the and to the the org, but I don't think the orn org consider
David: I got you. So so the heart of it though is is the is the August Burning Man event that 70,000 people
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Right.
David: show up to, build a city, and then as you say, it's like it's a temporary art playground, really. And that's all there is to it. I mean, I I
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yeah.
David: guess in a certain sense, that's there's there that the magic is that. I I'm curious in your mind, what what keeps it
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): What what?
David: going? I mean, how come it hasn't fallen apart into a corporatized, you know, giant mass? How how How have you kept the troublemakers from ruining it? I mean, you know, there's always a troublemaker, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes with bad intentions. Wha why is Burning Man still this fantastic playground?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well I think that's great. The the the core answer is the ten principles and in a true adherence to the ten principles and which I can probably recite but then when I start forgetting them because now I'm feeling nervous and hadn't like looked at them before this so I won't recite them, but you can like pop them in something that you edit. or I can send you a cool I have a cool sticker magnet of them. I can send you a picture if you want to insert it. Anyway, so there's ten principles, but the core are like are the ones that come easily to mind without my anxiety. is
David: Yeah, good.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): radical self-expression, radical participation, leave no trace, which are different, right? Expressing and participating are different. leave no trace. my god, I'm only going to from three to it doesn't matter. Make that section look better, please. I feel like I flopped in. But so there's that. There's the and and the principles truly are just community agreements. Like everyone has who shows up there has hopefully read the survival guide so they know about the physical environment. There are risks. It's a city of eighty thousand strangers. And yes, everyone has paid to get there, but there are, you know, just in any city of 80,000 people, there are going to be, you know, things that that, you know, people that aren't that get f too messed up to how, you know, know what they're doing or have bad intentions. but for the most part, everyone is just so amazing and abides by these, you know, community agreements is really what the principles are, and has read them ahead of time because most people, unlike me, like I showed up because This woman in my laugh room said she wanted to go. And I was Yep, sounds great. With no pretty much no research. I did read if there was a survival guide, I probably at least skimmed it I asked Wesbend what it said. and
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): he would do all our planning at that stage. and then I think the honestly from my perspective is the brand protection. They've had to
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): pr and I mean, yes, I was their attorney for a long time. a trademark attorney outside trademark council for a long time. But the the brand, the ability to say, no, you can't be burning van. No, you can't be burning
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Sun. No, you you know, like to make sure that people aren't confused, to make sure that the people who want to have this experience, this feeling, can can figure out where, you know, who's offering it, what you know, what to expect, because it's always going to be the same. I mean it's never going to be the same, but it, you know, the the setup will always be the same. The streets are always the same. People still the street signs like day two. So you can't you have to know how you're getting around. There's an iBurn app. Like people have created solutions to the challenges that they think, including
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): environmental impact. Because though it is the biggest leave no trace event, it does have a like generators and you know transportation. And so Norcs constantly working on that. But I think it's its challenges are, you know, its leadership has been, it's the same leaders that have been there forever and and and you know everything it's not inert, obviously. It's continually growing and evolving. And I think that doing things differently sometimes takes different people because it's sometimes hard, you know, you when you're so in it. And Marion's
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): an amazing work and and but maybe, you know, I think I don't know. It it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years because I I don't I mean who knows with the world. It's everything's so wow. And it'll be this
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): year that's I I I don't I have a very mixed relationship with AI. But it will be
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): interesting to see how much it shows up. It was there a little bit last year. Like people
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): had, you know, AI things that you were in like the in the level of interactivity you could do in real time. So this year,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I'm sure the way AI is gonna show up in a playful, like, wow, okay, look at, you know.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and yeah, it's it's I don't know if I answered your question, but it it I think people keep going back because it's always novel, new, amazing. worth it. You know, it's worth it for the level
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): of human connection and the level of of of imagination and inspiration and yeah and it's never ever gonna be the same ever.
David: Yeah. Yeah. I think you did answer the question because I think at the heart of it, Burning Man has been able to protect itself because there's a lot of love and affection amongst the people that make Burning Man to keep it that way. And then there's actually a value based structure around it that protects it. I I mean I'd like to think that the rest of the world worked that well. and maybe that's why we need a Burning Man, because it really does it's it's it's an opportunity to say that like a whole bunch of people can get together and actually do something together that's really amazing. But let's talk about that amazing. Let's let's talk about like just to get into it, into what this playground is like, just hit me with like, what's it like to be there for you? I mean, you blend all the years together. What's the experience? What do you see? What do you do? What are some of the highlights for you?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): gosh. Well the highlights are always mostly the people with whom I did the things. and some of my most memorable some of my like yeah most fond memories. I am really close to recruit people who has a art car, probably the most famous art car for visuals called El Popo Magnifico. And it's a flaming
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): octopus and all built from recycled like pie tins and and I don't know what you call that category of kitchenware, but you know, baking tins and things. And yeah, phenomenal. Created by the artist Dwayne Flatmoe, supported by his amazing wife Mickey Flatmo. And anyways, an amazing crew just phenomenal humans. And and so anywhere you're out on that octopus, like like before sound cars became a thing a few years ago and would drive around and just play music as loudly as they possibly you know could without damaging our eardrums, although it probably is. this thing was like the most famous art car. And so people on bicycles will just follow it wherever it goes. And so it's
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): going around and it has, you know, it's doing its flames and it and it's playing good music. And then there's a trail of bicycles. And I mean it like this first of all, the surreal you know, we're
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): powering through the desert. And then another like the Golden Gate Bridge drives up and it hawks and then you decide, Golden Gate Bridge is here. Hey, what are you doing? Well, we're just driving around looking for something to do. Us too. Let's have a dance party. And then they decide, like,
David: Ha ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you want to be the DJ? Well, no, we'll be the DJ, 'cause then we can do the flames. And like I I mean, it's it's
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like, you know, how many people do you know that can ride around a flame on a flaming octopus and then when a Golden Gate Bridge pulls up, stop and have a dance party? Like I I mean, just the it's amazing. So that night, or like, you know, some of the experiences have been somber in the temple, like after I got divorced, I left things in there, but it's still like where could you w where else can I put something in a physical structure, you know, big physical structure, and then watch it get lit on fire with the perfect you know, in intentional and and s like single purpose of of serving as a release for the community. You know, like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like where there's in I mean. I know that that's you know, like a tribal and a native tradition, certainly in lots of places with you know pyres and
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): things, but like in in modern day society, where can you do that? I don't you know, like just the magic of the place and the magic of the people that 'cause if the place I've been there when there's no Breading Man and it's just a big flat playa,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and with occasional mildness of dust. but it
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): yeah, it's like The the people who come and then the things that they create and then the experiences you get to have. One of my favorites is a gosh, I can't believe I'm spacing on the name. But anyways, it's a giant metal box. And on the outside of the box, there's one way in to crawl into the box. It's it's you know,
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): two. One way in. And on the outside of the box are are the insides of pianos. So like the s you know, the strings and they're fixed
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): to this thing. And then on the outside as well, there's mallets and there's like a hammer and there's a, I don't know, a saw, let's say. So people on the outside can use this instrument, because it's,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you know, and people on the inside hear it like really
David: wow.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well in a metal box and it resonates. And
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): it has a name and I can't we'd have to ask, yeah, I cannot believe I'm forgetting the name of it. They they contributed
David: Sorry.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): one year to the temple, to that, to that, you know, like I said, that sacred structure that
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): is there to serve as a release for the community. And yeah, anyways, just like how did they even think of that? Like, who thought of that? And like, thank you. And And then you're in there, you're banging on it and and then you peek in and there's people in there just giggling, you know. You're like, we
David: Yeah that's so cool.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): got to do it again. You're like, I didn't know anyone was in there, I didn't know I could get in. I just saw this thing to play with and I mean, just over and over and over that experience, you know, like, what?
David: So I'm I'm curious. I mean, I think, you know, when you think about it as kind of like this cool art playground with these amazing experiences, you know, lights, sounds, you know, dance parties. that's the play side. But you're right. I mean, a big, big part of Burning Man is the ritual side. And and and I'm curious i in in your view, what's that relationship between play and ritual? Cause I think in in most daily life, ritual is somber. boring church stuff and play is what you do after church. And somehow Burning Man kinda p munge it all together into something where they kinda seem symmetrical or I mean, I don't tell me. Like what's what's the sacred and the divine and and the and the you know how does that all work with play at at Burning Man?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well I th I think that it for the p let's see how I word this. I'll just speak for me personally.
David: Perfect, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Novel idea. I I think it has to be that way, personally. I
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I I think that play without reflection results in burnout, just like anything, you know, if you're just
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): doing anything with laser focus and nothing else and you you burn out and then all sorts of negative consequences. So I think that the that the sacred and the gentle, like Bernie Man is a lot of like the nighttime, the loud music, the lights, the you know, all of it all at once from every direction.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And then some is the you know party or is the is the hedonistic aspect.
David: Yeah,
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And then
David: yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): the temple is much more like the the reflective and and you know can reflection exist without hedonism? Probably. I haven't really examined that question. Maybe you have. But
David: No.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): but even even the reflection, like when I I I released something in the temple after Was been denied divorce and I made this collage and it was all my like favorite memories, you know, of of things. And so it
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and it was Playful. I mean making it was hard and I didn't wanna you know, I knew I needed to but wasn't in a space yet to emotionally want to release something.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): but it was still kind of playful and actually I was peddling it out to the temple and a big ass wind came out of nowhere and like half of the pictures pictures blew away
David: Blue up.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and I was like, no, and then I whooped, right? Matter out of place is anything that hits the ground that's not
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): right, essentially. And so I'm running after the pictures, I'm like this fucking figures, you know, my marriage isn't I'm gonna leave.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And one year after I got a divorce from my birthday. and so but that even that, like when I finally picked it up, I like, this is ridiculous. You know what I mean? Like and
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): then I set it in the temple and and then I cried with it for a while. I got hit on by a dude, which was weird. then I was really weird for that situation. And it like it's even nicer see you think. I mean I'm like, god, what? So then I left the temple and I walked out of the temple and it rained. And and I know Like I've it's rained at Burning Man like Torrental, but it it this was a year where it wasn't raining. This was two. It didn't really rain yet. Like very rarely. I think I mean
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): or no, I'm sorry, it's just twenty fifteen. I I'd almost never seen it rain at Burning Man. One day it was a sprinkle and it just it just sprinkled and dragonflies were around. Like as soon as I walked out of the temple. Does it get more playful than that? Like like I I think the universe
David: wow. Yeah, it's magical.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): in nature is like the most, you know, playful thing in the world. I mean, I'm I'm about to go on a week long solo backpacking trip. And then come home and spend two weeks packing for Burning Man. but I have
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): checklists and you know, I know where everything is and it's just pulling it out and staying
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like blah blah blah. But yeah, I think I think both parts to me are playful, but I don't I think it would just exp it would be too much if it didn't have that yin yang. If if it was just like,
David: The balance, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you know, crazy, it would yeah, wouldn't work.
David: I think that's a pretty important insight. So so I mean I guess I'd I have to just get to this question. I mean if I say, Is Burning Man fun? Is it fun for you? Is it is it is it a fun thing or is it something bigger than fun?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): bigger than fun. yeah, it's definitely bigger than fun. yeah, because I mean David, you've got me thinking about all these existential questions just like that survey that I loved of yours. my gosh, I hope you just keep that up somewhere forever and I want to send everyone to it.
David: I'll keep it up.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): yeah, I need to send more people to it. Those questions are so intriguing. And I haven't looked any of the words up in the dictionary. Back to your question, is it bigger than fun? yes, it's definitely bigger than fun. So then my next thought was like, well, is that because of like why really? My next thought was like, Why did I just say that? It's bigger than
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): fun. is that a preconceived notion that fun for itself l like I think it comes down to it what's the definition of fun versus if it is versus the definition of play. I'm sorry I'm getting into this existential thing, but this is sort of like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I I can't really answer your question because now I'm like, whoa, I I really don't know what I mean by that. I just feel it, you know. So
David: what is it that makes Burning Man fun and and where is it bigger than fun?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Ha. what well every I mean the humans, the the the novelty, the creativity, the there's puzzle solving involved. what else makes it fun? it's silly, it's it's you know, it's lighthearted and and then it's like just I say that more so because of the somatics, like more so like it feels like fun. To to my body, it's what fun feels like.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And I'm not all in here. Like yes, there's some like, did we go to that or that or that? Wait, did we see that? Where are we? But it mostly
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I'm just fully present, right? So that that and again
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): play fun presence etymologies.
David: Well, I think, you know, it's so so that's why it feels like fun. W where is it bigger than fun? Like what are the what are the kinds of things you're like, it's that too, but I wouldn't call that fun.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Well, so then I thought ref this is where I the lawyer brain came in because I thought, well, it's the reflection. It's the that was just like the first word was like, it's the reflection. It's the it's the more solitude. Like a lot of times the temple, at least for me, not for but it the
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): temple is more a solitude, you know, it's the Yeah, they're they're more somber, but I don't want to say somber with an any form of there's no judgment in that word, or if there's a less judgmental word, use that there.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): because it's just you know, I don't think of those things as quote fun. But but you know, like the story with me riding out to the temple to release my husband, that was playful to me. Was it fun? I mean there were moments of fun, like the rain and the dragonflies and that was but but I
David: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): don't know if I understand the def difference between fun and play. We can't wait to have that chat with you,
David: so so let's let's talk about this. you know, I I think that, you know, there's something
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): You might think you know.
David: about Burning Man that it's it's in the popular zeitgeist enough that I think people have a pretty good sense of whether it's for them or not. For some people they like the idea of the art, but they can't deal with the the the the the difficulties of camping. For other people, they're like, those just don't look like the kind of people I want to spend a week with. I mean, set all that aside. But for the person that the the the burning man curious that hasn't been, how how do you kind of talk to somebody about like why they should still consider going to Burning Man? Or or or a kind of a secondary question, or is there a way to enjoy Burning Man without going? Is there is there something that that I can burn at home? I can kind of like just get a get a th some of it without getting dirty.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I just
David: So how how do you how do we get people into the Burning Man fun? How do we get them excited about it?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): my gosh. Well, I love that you said without getting dirty, because when you said it, my first thought was like, go get some baby powder. Start doing this to the bottle. Okay, rest
David: Spread it everywhere.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): up. No dirt, no getting dirty.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well, so first I think the answer is yes, you can burn from home. Literally on burn night, and I think actually all week, there is a live stream from the radio station BMIR, and it's on YouTube, I believe. So we live streams.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Burn week. It might I don't know if it's up excuse me during build week. So there's a week prior burn week starts the s at midnight on the Sunday before Labor Day a whole week before Labor Day weekend. Build week starts
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): the prior Sunday. So I don't know how long it's up. But in any event, so yes, you can watch the you can watch the that that's on this road called Espinada looks out at the man. So you can kind of see what's happening and really you know, in real time. but But it's an experience. It's not so I don't think you can truly experience the burn except for at the burn, but there are also regional burns around the co around the world. There's one in Africa, there's one in has been one in Miami. There have been I don't know, there's a handful of them. And and they're like TEDx things. Like the Burning Man organization is involved and they're
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and they're supporting it. and then there's decompressions, which often happen right after the burn in in bigger cities generally, but sometimes mid year. and and you know if you the word burner, even though it d derived from the you know burning man or a burner if you go
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): avidly and enjoy it. if you type in burning you know burner activities or you know into Facebook or wherever you you know get your like things to do, it'll definitely bring up like options of things that are identi and that's a like okay trademark use by the community is to say it's a burner thing. So it's a cool way
David: Okay.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): to like get a get a toe in. but really I don't think there's any way to experience it besides going. And so the reasons that you're gonna come with me next year in
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): your own RV, but well prepared, because like, you know the professor of fun who has if he said burning man curious, there's like
David: Yes.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you know, you'll you'll make it you can't make the dust dot. Well sometimes it doesn't come at all. But yeah, it it you would love it. I mean just having met you in Exeter, I I immediately was like, my God, you go, right? And you were like but I think the r the reasons to go are for the for the novelty, for the for the, you know, what what Mahali Shikt Mihai calls the flow state. because you as someone who loves fun, as someone who knows that that's, you know, a thing that their brain enjoys, I don't see a way that you wouldn't just love it, but but it does come with the trade
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): off of harsh environmental conditions.
David: Well, I I think you've you've uncovered my my secret, which is this entire episode of the podcast was to talk me into going to Burning Man next year. So you you've you've pushed me a little further to the edge. Well, listen, this has been a great conversation and it's almost seems like I don't need to do this, but you know, part of the show is I end on three kind of wacky questions. So I gotta ask you some oddball
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I love it.
David: random questions, but they may just sound like normal Burning Man questions in the context of this conversation. So the first thing I I wanted to ask you. is s so the so Burning Man is a is a gift economy. People don't buy and sell things. And so people are wandering around giving things away. In in your twenty years, what's the weirdest gift you've ever received at Burning Man?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): my gosh. Well, I'm just gonna say the thing that comes to mind. So there's a wishing well in kids' camp. It's on the edge of kids' camp. Kids camp is protected by an ele orange fence and but there's a wishing
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well. And so this was like my I don't know, third or fourth year. And I go and I say l like laughter and bacon or something, giggles and bacon, and I throw and you put your
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): your address, because it is a city, so you have addresses. So I put my address and
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I and I throw it in. And like three hours later, someone comes in camp and they're Hey ping foam, which is my playa name. They're like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): You know, we got a delivery. And I was like, What? And they come up and it's this, I don't know, six year old girl and her mom, and she's just like being super goofy and like does a little performance and I'm like in stitches and I'm like, okay, I'm like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): d you know, like still not have any idea where they came from or what they're here about. And then they're like and look and it's I'd never even seen this before. It's pre made bacon that you literally you
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): could eat it, Rob, but it tastes yucky that way. But they're like, just put it on the hood of your car and it'll cook in the sun. And I was
David: Ha ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like, They're like, we brought you tinfoil too. And like they literally make it and they're like, we'll just hang out and like do our little dance until like and the thing cooked and we shared like bacon. And I was like, Are you serious? You can just go to a wishing well and wish for laughter and bacon and that shows up.
David: And it shows up.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): So yeah. I don't know if it's the weirdest, but it was it was I was like, I'm never coming I'm never not coming there.
David: Well that's yeah, that's that's magical. So okay, so here's your next question. What burning man principle or practice would you bring back into the real world if you could?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well it's funny that you asked that. do you want a long or short answer?
David: No, these are supposed to be short, so it ch you gotta like to get to the point. Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): gosh. I well, right now I think civic engagement.
David: yeah, yeah, no kidding, right, right. N enough said on that, yes. Absolutely. And and maybe more giggles and bacon. Okay, last
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yeah.
David: question. Last question here. you've been twenty times. What would your friends and and fellow burners say is your burner superpower?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): it what is my burner superpower well i'd say sparkling but that's my default world's superpower superpower
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): as well so my god I have I literally have no idea. I'm trying to think of like what would they
David: Ha ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): say and I and like which group of friends, but I'm thinking the spluffy crew, which has a big school bus that's a floating cloud bank.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Well maybe then I live up to my name, ping pong, because I'm like I mean it's also same same with the real world. Sometimes people
David: Yeah,
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): hear ping pong and they're like, 'cause the A D D and I'm like, Yeah, well, touche. No,
David: Ha ha
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): we c it came from somewhere else, but it applies. There you go.
David: There you go. Hey, that that it all counts. I mean, I can't imagine a conversation with Burning Man having a real direct linear analytical line of thought. That that might actually be pointless, right? But I've really had I've really had a great time ping ponging around with you about what Burning Man is and why or why not it, where it's fun, where it might not be fun. It's just been great. And I'm, you know, I got a whole year to think about it, but I gotta figure out how to get to Burning Man next year.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Thank you so much, David. It's been a great time.
David: Thanks. So the cat's out of the bag. The professor of fun has never been to Burning Man. I always like to say I knew about it early on and I just couldn't do it, kids, life, job. And then when I had the ability to maybe get out of the house and go to it, then I thought, you know, it's kinda it's cliche to go to Burning Man. Well, let's just face it, I'm probably afraid. I'm afraid of the dirt, I'm afraid of the heat, I'm afraid of not having the right equipment or not being cool enough or having enough shiny clothes. But really I I think I gotta go. And and why do I have to go? Partly because of this ongoing fascination I have with play and and fun. And I think from the outside at least, and from everyone I've ever talked to, Burning Man is fun. And and why is it fun? I think at the bottom line of it, Burning Man is a functioning civil society with a fire department, with police, with with medical professionals, with a radio station, with essentially rules or laws. I mean, you know, it's a city. It it runs like a city of seventy plus thousand people. You you can't You can't run anarchy at that scale. so there's organization, and and and clearly there's enough organization that it happens every year and people are able to go and enjoy it. So you've got this real city, but what's different about it? It's a city where nobody is working to work, nobody's working to live. Specifically, people are working together to create this environment that opposes the the hostilities of of nature in order to have this communal experience. And the core of that, I mean, there's these 10 principles that Burning Man has, which are fantastic. But I think when I look at it from the perspective of fun, what I think Burning Man really is, is a gigantic city that fully gives you permission to play. And in my work with professors at play, and in my work sometimes as the professor of play, I'll give talks and workshops, and it doesn't matter how long they are. At the end of the day, I'm usually just telling adults it's okay to play. And and and also it's okay to play in the ways that you like to play. It's not like there's a certain prescribed way that you're supposed to play. Well, that just punches all the buttons for Bernie Man. Bernie Man says calm and short of hurting the environment or other people, let your freak flag fly. If if it seems fun to you to to set up a slip and slide in the middle of the desert, go for it. If it seems fun to you to set up a a fortune-telling magic show in the middle of the desert, go for it. If it seems fun to you to set up the world's largest ring around the rosy, go for it. It really doesn't tell you what to do in terms of how to play. And so not only does it give you permission to play, it gives you the permission to play the way you want to. Now, for me, the core of fun, what makes fun so compelling to us as human beings is that fun creates this state that I've talked about in my previous podcast of the is not, this ambiguity of things that allows you to make meaning. And that's really important. When you go to school, generally speaking, you go to you know, a serious art, you know, you're there to receive wisdom. When you go to church, you're there to receive wisdom and understanding. You're being taught. there's not a lot of place to make your own meaning. play is the place where you get to decide good guys, bad guys. I'm alive, I'm not alive, you know, that was a goal, that wasn't a goal. What truly a play. Everything's negotiated, and the only real underlying rule of all play is like, let's just keep changing the play so it'll continue. so so this meaning making, and and again, there's a lot to say there. Burning Man is a place where people go and make their own meaning. And not only do they make their own meaning, they make their own meaning in public. So my performance, my meaning making is done starting with me, then it becomes collaborative with others. So you think about the example that Laura said where They're following the flaming octopus, and then they meet up the another car, and then they decide to collaborate, and they decide to have a dance party. It's like these different pods of meaning kind of coalesce and then they collide and they make shared meaning. And I know this sounds like, what are you talking about? Well, it's because I think that Burning Man is the most unique thing that I know about in the world of creating play at scale. And when you create play at scale, you create ripples of human freedom and effect that we don't really even understand what those mean. And I know I don't understand what it means because I've talked to people that come back from Burning Man and they have almost this religious reverie. They can't quite put into words what happened to them. And I think that's just it. I think that in a playful society, we might live in that state where we would go, as Laura says, between the the the sacred. and and and and and the mundane. We would go between play and the divine. And I think there's something really wonderful about that. so I can't say for sure what Burning Man is. I know when it happens, I know what the rules are, because you can read about those. But I suspect that Burning Man is the best blueprint we have so far of truly what a playful society could be and what's possible. So there you have it. I gotta go to Burning Man next year. See if I can make it.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Right.
David: fun question? Me too. The Fun Question, a show where we explore the strange and powerful ways people engage in a life of fun. I'm your host, Dr. David Thomas, the professor of fun, recording live from my hidden lair and back for another week of playful exploration. My guest today is Laura Pearson, founder and head geek at Brand Geek, a law firm focused on, you guessed it, brand protection. Lara has worked with a wide variety of mission-driven brands, including one that caught my eye, Burning Man. Today I did not invite her on to talk about trademark law, but instead to share about her 20 years of participating in the Burn. What is Burning Man and why does it draw over 70,000 people each year to build art and hang out in a temporary city built in the Nevada desert? Part family campout, part art festival, part utopian hippie community, part survivalist compound. And a lot, lot more. What keeps the Burning Man going? And most importantly, what makes it fun? Welcome, Laura. Let's talk about Burning Man.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yay. Thank you for having me.
David: So 20 years is a long time to do anything. maybe take us back to your first Burning Man. Why did you go to this and what did you think you were getting yourself into that first year?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well I don't research things very very much when it comes
David: Ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): to what am I gonna go do next. My mother would call that my impulsivity. but I I had heard lots of friends had talked about it 'cause I live in Ta live north Lake Tahoe, which is very close, relatively speaking, to Burning Man. where they hold Burning Man. And so I was working at a law firm and a friend of mine there decided she told me she and her husband were going. And a lot of my friends that I saw live music with and that I would maybe consider more not more playful, differently play like playful more in the way I am that go to festivals, et cetera. My friend and her husband were very loyally and more for football games and just kind of a I I wouldn't necessarily picture them at Burning Man, but when she said she was gonna go, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go. That sounds that that that even though my friends seem scared, if this lady thinks it's okay, it must be cool. so we went. This was two thousand two and my husband and I drove out in our little RAV4 with a ten by ten tent and a sorry, ten by ten tent and and and tarp and we've set it all up as our little camp in a corner and people looked like like you know, what are you doing? Is that your whole camp? And we were like, yeah, you know, and they were like, okay, we'll we'll keep an eye on you. And then night fell and we wandered out into what's called the playa. And it's it's dark except that there's The amount of things that people do with light, make with light, the the Golden Gate Bridge drives by and I was like, what in the you know, like the the next thing you know, like a rhinoceros comes by and flames come out of its nose and I'm like, what is this is insane. And lights everywhere and like the the the playfulness of the place. and and the mystery of it and the things to explore and the people to meet and my goodness, I I even though we had brought entirely inadequate equipment down to you you need a bicycle and now everybody has e-bikes. I don't, but ever a lot of people have e-bikes. we had razor scooters. Like you can't traverse that area with a razor scooter. Or you build an art car. Like you you take a vehicle
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): that's a you know some some type of vehicle from a golf cart to a a school bus to bigger and you have to completely transform it into art. That moves around and ideally they can take other humans on it as well. And so there's a flaming octopus, there's a cloud bank full of clouds. There's I mean it's the things that people do and and not just like think of, but back in O2, you had to think about it, draw it out, you know, make little models, build it, take it apart, move it to the desert, redo it. just the wow, like that what people would commit themselves to. to doing that to provide enjoyment for themselves and others. And it works. I mean it what a formula.
David: So so you showed up and and like when you were there, I mean it's about seventy thousand people now. How big was it the first year you went? It was still pretty huge.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I mean, it it was thirty five thousand, I think. So and I think yeah, it's now down seventy, but it had been up to eighty at its at its peak, burning man. And honestly to me, it it always just felt enormous. Like I didn't I
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): really don't feel like I felt the change in number of humans from thirty five thousand to s eighty thousand back down to seventy thousand. It's it's it's not that big of an of of a square footage of an area of the whole event. But you're doing it all on bicycle and you're doing it on bicycle like ten hours a day, you know, or you have
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): another car. So like I didn't feel the change in the terms of like how many humans so a few hundred humans feels like a lot. I live in the mountain. but I I think the scale of art has increased. The the scale of fireworks for the man, the scale of the explosions, 'cause things do like, you know, they have propane explosions and things blow up.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): that sounds very violent and unconstructive, but it's it's I mean, it's artistic. It's they don't just bloop, you know.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and yeah, it anyways just wow.
David: And and so for people that haven't been there, I I mean, you know, I think you if you see pictures, it looks like, you know, a bunch of kind of half dressed crazy people in the desert, which I think is authentic to it. But the the city itself is is organized, it has streets. I mean, there there's there's rules and order. I mean, it operates as this little week long, I mean large scale city dedicated to what? Art and self expression. And that's kind of the frame, right? As and and then what happens there is really up to what the people bring with them in their heads or in their cars or in their trucks. And so
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yeah, you know.
David: yes, okay. So your first year, you're basically went to a campo. Tell me about the next year. Did you go, we need more stuff, we need more, more,
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Okay.
David: more glitter, more streamers, more laser beams. I don't know what did you bring the second year?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): so that's a great question. my first inclination is like no glitter, no streamers. So
David: sorry, yeah, yeah. Nothing that's right. We gotta say, it's it's eco friendly, right? Everything that goes to Burning Man gets picked up and taken back. So the last thing you ever wanna do is have to be sweeping glitter up off the desert floor, right?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): my gosh. Yeah. And and in the winter it's a sensitive environment with these little fairy shrimp because it fills up as a lake. and they do their, you know, they do their evolutionary thing and then it goes back to a playa, which again is not like saying maybe I didn't say that. The playa
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): substance is is like baby powder during the day and then if it gets wet it turns into clay. It's a phenomenal experience. yeah, well half dressed is is because it's very warm.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): It's you know, it's in the nineties and hundreds and and you'd be silly to try to I mean some people have to cover up because of the son, but like but so I I remember telling an attorney that I with whom I was working on a litigation matter that I was going to Burning Man and he actually came and visited me and I had like multicolor ribbon braided into my hair and and had my hair b like, you know, extended and and but I wasn't doing any like I wasn't going to meet clients, I was only going to the burn and I remember him being like,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): It's all What did he say? Like it's all druggies and I forgot his other word, but like you know, really negative connotation. And I was like, actually it's
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like doctors and lawyers and professors and scientists
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and you know, it's the right brain, left brain people that are like you know, not zero-sum mentality, it it's it's growth mindset and you know, it it like there's a certain self-selecting, certainly, but but character of human that will is willing to endure the harshness of the physical environment from the consistency of the playa to the heat. And then sometimes at night it can be a hundred and two in a day and like in the forties at night. So like you
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): also have to have clothing for, you know, however long you're out there. Like I'm out there this year it'll only be twelve days, but a lot of people are out there at least for you know, fourteen to twenty days that are just
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): making their camp, making their art and then going home. They're not like part of the putting on the event, you know, they're not part
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): of the Burning Man org or its contractors. it's it's a big it's a big commitment to play, honestly. But it's
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): so i it there's a saying the playa provides, which and the people will say, Well you you don't get the burn you want, you get the burn you need, meaning, like you said, there is a lot of harshness of the environment. There is, if you're at all sensory sensitive of in any form. It is it
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): is a lot to manage, you know? And so there's there's a lot of physical and and you know, potentially emotional challenges that you have to face to be there. And then if you know, if you're open and and feel safe, then you have these magical amazing experiences with incredible humans who are like all out there to connect with each other, to con to, you know, see art, to be inspired, to leave the monkey mind behind and just immerse and engage and and you know, all the things that we know about about play and the neuroscience of play and the And the endorphins and you know, all the chemicals get released. I mean it it my goodness, I just I like get truth from thinking about it. It it is a
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): unique place that can't be replicated. but there but there are there's smaller burns. Like I think you had asked me at some point in our relation you know, our friendship,
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like what if people can't get to the Nevada desert or and so there's
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): it it's expanding. And so a big part of the Burning Man ecosystem now are what they call regionals, regional burns. A lot of Burning Man camps or Burning Man groups will do what they call decompressions. So a decompression is is an independently organized, totally unrelated to Burning Man. And then the regionals, Burning Man is kind of more like a TEDx talk. You know, you have TED that's
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): in the main thing, Burning Man in the desert. And then the regional burns are much more akin to a TEDx talk than the decompressions which are just a group of friends who all burn together, like generally after they've burned, they'll gather in whatever Oakland has one I think, or sometimes it's mid year, but it's a gathering of burners that that are, you know, using a brand that's adjacent to the and to the the org, but I don't think the orn org consider
David: I got you. So so the heart of it though is is the is the August Burning Man event that 70,000 people
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Right.
David: show up to, build a city, and then as you say, it's like it's a temporary art playground, really. And that's all there is to it. I mean, I I
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yeah.
David: guess in a certain sense, that's there's there that the magic is that. I I'm curious in your mind, what what keeps it
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): What what?
David: going? I mean, how come it hasn't fallen apart into a corporatized, you know, giant mass? How how How have you kept the troublemakers from ruining it? I mean, you know, there's always a troublemaker, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes with bad intentions. Wha why is Burning Man still this fantastic playground?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well I think that's great. The the the core answer is the ten principles and in a true adherence to the ten principles and which I can probably recite but then when I start forgetting them because now I'm feeling nervous and hadn't like looked at them before this so I won't recite them, but you can like pop them in something that you edit. or I can send you a cool I have a cool sticker magnet of them. I can send you a picture if you want to insert it. Anyway, so there's ten principles, but the core are like are the ones that come easily to mind without my anxiety. is
David: Yeah, good.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): radical self-expression, radical participation, leave no trace, which are different, right? Expressing and participating are different. leave no trace. my god, I'm only going to from three to it doesn't matter. Make that section look better, please. I feel like I flopped in. But so there's that. There's the and and the principles truly are just community agreements. Like everyone has who shows up there has hopefully read the survival guide so they know about the physical environment. There are risks. It's a city of eighty thousand strangers. And yes, everyone has paid to get there, but there are, you know, just in any city of 80,000 people, there are going to be, you know, things that that, you know, people that aren't that get f too messed up to how, you know, know what they're doing or have bad intentions. but for the most part, everyone is just so amazing and abides by these, you know, community agreements is really what the principles are, and has read them ahead of time because most people, unlike me, like I showed up because This woman in my laugh room said she wanted to go. And I was Yep, sounds great. With no pretty much no research. I did read if there was a survival guide, I probably at least skimmed it I asked Wesbend what it said. and
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): he would do all our planning at that stage. and then I think the honestly from my perspective is the brand protection. They've had to
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): pr and I mean, yes, I was their attorney for a long time. a trademark attorney outside trademark council for a long time. But the the brand, the ability to say, no, you can't be burning van. No, you can't be burning
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Sun. No, you you know, like to make sure that people aren't confused, to make sure that the people who want to have this experience, this feeling, can can figure out where, you know, who's offering it, what you know, what to expect, because it's always going to be the same. I mean it's never going to be the same, but it, you know, the the setup will always be the same. The streets are always the same. People still the street signs like day two. So you can't you have to know how you're getting around. There's an iBurn app. Like people have created solutions to the challenges that they think, including
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): environmental impact. Because though it is the biggest leave no trace event, it does have a like generators and you know transportation. And so Norcs constantly working on that. But I think it's its challenges are, you know, its leadership has been, it's the same leaders that have been there forever and and and you know everything it's not inert, obviously. It's continually growing and evolving. And I think that doing things differently sometimes takes different people because it's sometimes hard, you know, you when you're so in it. And Marion's
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): an amazing work and and but maybe, you know, I think I don't know. It it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years because I I don't I mean who knows with the world. It's everything's so wow. And it'll be this
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): year that's I I I don't I have a very mixed relationship with AI. But it will be
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): interesting to see how much it shows up. It was there a little bit last year. Like people
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): had, you know, AI things that you were in like the in the level of interactivity you could do in real time. So this year,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I'm sure the way AI is gonna show up in a playful, like, wow, okay, look at, you know.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and yeah, it's it's I don't know if I answered your question, but it it I think people keep going back because it's always novel, new, amazing. worth it. You know, it's worth it for the level
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): of human connection and the level of of of imagination and inspiration and yeah and it's never ever gonna be the same ever.
David: Yeah. Yeah. I think you did answer the question because I think at the heart of it, Burning Man has been able to protect itself because there's a lot of love and affection amongst the people that make Burning Man to keep it that way. And then there's actually a value based structure around it that protects it. I I mean I'd like to think that the rest of the world worked that well. and maybe that's why we need a Burning Man, because it really does it's it's it's an opportunity to say that like a whole bunch of people can get together and actually do something together that's really amazing. But let's talk about that amazing. Let's let's talk about like just to get into it, into what this playground is like, just hit me with like, what's it like to be there for you? I mean, you blend all the years together. What's the experience? What do you see? What do you do? What are some of the highlights for you?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): gosh. Well the highlights are always mostly the people with whom I did the things. and some of my most memorable some of my like yeah most fond memories. I am really close to recruit people who has a art car, probably the most famous art car for visuals called El Popo Magnifico. And it's a flaming
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): octopus and all built from recycled like pie tins and and I don't know what you call that category of kitchenware, but you know, baking tins and things. And yeah, phenomenal. Created by the artist Dwayne Flatmoe, supported by his amazing wife Mickey Flatmo. And anyways, an amazing crew just phenomenal humans. And and so anywhere you're out on that octopus, like like before sound cars became a thing a few years ago and would drive around and just play music as loudly as they possibly you know could without damaging our eardrums, although it probably is. this thing was like the most famous art car. And so people on bicycles will just follow it wherever it goes. And so it's
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): going around and it has, you know, it's doing its flames and it and it's playing good music. And then there's a trail of bicycles. And I mean it like this first of all, the surreal you know, we're
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): powering through the desert. And then another like the Golden Gate Bridge drives up and it hawks and then you decide, Golden Gate Bridge is here. Hey, what are you doing? Well, we're just driving around looking for something to do. Us too. Let's have a dance party. And then they decide, like,
David: Ha ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you want to be the DJ? Well, no, we'll be the DJ, 'cause then we can do the flames. And like I I mean, it's it's
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like, you know, how many people do you know that can ride around a flame on a flaming octopus and then when a Golden Gate Bridge pulls up, stop and have a dance party? Like I I mean, just the it's amazing. So that night, or like, you know, some of the experiences have been somber in the temple, like after I got divorced, I left things in there, but it's still like where could you w where else can I put something in a physical structure, you know, big physical structure, and then watch it get lit on fire with the perfect you know, in intentional and and s like single purpose of of serving as a release for the community. You know, like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like where there's in I mean. I know that that's you know, like a tribal and a native tradition, certainly in lots of places with you know pyres and
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): things, but like in in modern day society, where can you do that? I don't you know, like just the magic of the place and the magic of the people that 'cause if the place I've been there when there's no Breading Man and it's just a big flat playa,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and with occasional mildness of dust. but it
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): yeah, it's like The the people who come and then the things that they create and then the experiences you get to have. One of my favorites is a gosh, I can't believe I'm spacing on the name. But anyways, it's a giant metal box. And on the outside of the box, there's one way in to crawl into the box. It's it's you know,
David: Mm-hmm.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): two. One way in. And on the outside of the box are are the insides of pianos. So like the s you know, the strings and they're fixed
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): to this thing. And then on the outside as well, there's mallets and there's like a hammer and there's a, I don't know, a saw, let's say. So people on the outside can use this instrument, because it's,
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you know, and people on the inside hear it like really
David: wow.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well in a metal box and it resonates. And
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): it has a name and I can't we'd have to ask, yeah, I cannot believe I'm forgetting the name of it. They they contributed
David: Sorry.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): one year to the temple, to that, to that, you know, like I said, that sacred structure that
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): is there to serve as a release for the community. And yeah, anyways, just like how did they even think of that? Like, who thought of that? And like, thank you. And And then you're in there, you're banging on it and and then you peek in and there's people in there just giggling, you know. You're like, we
David: Yeah that's so cool.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): got to do it again. You're like, I didn't know anyone was in there, I didn't know I could get in. I just saw this thing to play with and I mean, just over and over and over that experience, you know, like, what?
David: So I'm I'm curious. I mean, I think, you know, when you think about it as kind of like this cool art playground with these amazing experiences, you know, lights, sounds, you know, dance parties. that's the play side. But you're right. I mean, a big, big part of Burning Man is the ritual side. And and and I'm curious i in in your view, what's that relationship between play and ritual? Cause I think in in most daily life, ritual is somber. boring church stuff and play is what you do after church. And somehow Burning Man kinda p munge it all together into something where they kinda seem symmetrical or I mean, I don't tell me. Like what's what's the sacred and the divine and and the and the you know how does that all work with play at at Burning Man?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well I th I think that it for the p let's see how I word this. I'll just speak for me personally.
David: Perfect, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Novel idea. I I think it has to be that way, personally. I
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I I think that play without reflection results in burnout, just like anything, you know, if you're just
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): doing anything with laser focus and nothing else and you you burn out and then all sorts of negative consequences. So I think that the that the sacred and the gentle, like Bernie Man is a lot of like the nighttime, the loud music, the lights, the you know, all of it all at once from every direction.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And then some is the you know party or is the is the hedonistic aspect.
David: Yeah,
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And then
David: yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): the temple is much more like the the reflective and and you know can reflection exist without hedonism? Probably. I haven't really examined that question. Maybe you have. But
David: No.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): but even even the reflection, like when I I I released something in the temple after Was been denied divorce and I made this collage and it was all my like favorite memories, you know, of of things. And so it
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and it was Playful. I mean making it was hard and I didn't wanna you know, I knew I needed to but wasn't in a space yet to emotionally want to release something.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): but it was still kind of playful and actually I was peddling it out to the temple and a big ass wind came out of nowhere and like half of the pictures pictures blew away
David: Blue up.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and I was like, no, and then I whooped, right? Matter out of place is anything that hits the ground that's not
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): right, essentially. And so I'm running after the pictures, I'm like this fucking figures, you know, my marriage isn't I'm gonna leave.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And one year after I got a divorce from my birthday. and so but that even that, like when I finally picked it up, I like, this is ridiculous. You know what I mean? Like and
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): then I set it in the temple and and then I cried with it for a while. I got hit on by a dude, which was weird. then I was really weird for that situation. And it like it's even nicer see you think. I mean I'm like, god, what? So then I left the temple and I walked out of the temple and it rained. And and I know Like I've it's rained at Burning Man like Torrental, but it it this was a year where it wasn't raining. This was two. It didn't really rain yet. Like very rarely. I think I mean
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): or no, I'm sorry, it's just twenty fifteen. I I'd almost never seen it rain at Burning Man. One day it was a sprinkle and it just it just sprinkled and dragonflies were around. Like as soon as I walked out of the temple. Does it get more playful than that? Like like I I think the universe
David: wow. Yeah, it's magical.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): in nature is like the most, you know, playful thing in the world. I mean, I'm I'm about to go on a week long solo backpacking trip. And then come home and spend two weeks packing for Burning Man. but I have
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): checklists and you know, I know where everything is and it's just pulling it out and staying
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like blah blah blah. But yeah, I think I think both parts to me are playful, but I don't I think it would just exp it would be too much if it didn't have that yin yang. If if it was just like,
David: The balance, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you know, crazy, it would yeah, wouldn't work.
David: I think that's a pretty important insight. So so I mean I guess I'd I have to just get to this question. I mean if I say, Is Burning Man fun? Is it fun for you? Is it is it is it a fun thing or is it something bigger than fun?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): bigger than fun. yeah, it's definitely bigger than fun. yeah, because I mean David, you've got me thinking about all these existential questions just like that survey that I loved of yours. my gosh, I hope you just keep that up somewhere forever and I want to send everyone to it.
David: I'll keep it up.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): yeah, I need to send more people to it. Those questions are so intriguing. And I haven't looked any of the words up in the dictionary. Back to your question, is it bigger than fun? yes, it's definitely bigger than fun. So then my next thought was like, well, is that because of like why really? My next thought was like, Why did I just say that? It's bigger than
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): fun. is that a preconceived notion that fun for itself l like I think it comes down to it what's the definition of fun versus if it is versus the definition of play. I'm sorry I'm getting into this existential thing, but this is sort of like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I I can't really answer your question because now I'm like, whoa, I I really don't know what I mean by that. I just feel it, you know. So
David: what is it that makes Burning Man fun and and where is it bigger than fun?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Ha. what well every I mean the humans, the the the novelty, the creativity, the there's puzzle solving involved. what else makes it fun? it's silly, it's it's you know, it's lighthearted and and then it's like just I say that more so because of the somatics, like more so like it feels like fun. To to my body, it's what fun feels like.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): And I'm not all in here. Like yes, there's some like, did we go to that or that or that? Wait, did we see that? Where are we? But it mostly
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I'm just fully present, right? So that that and again
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): play fun presence etymologies.
David: Well, I think, you know, it's so so that's why it feels like fun. W where is it bigger than fun? Like what are the what are the kinds of things you're like, it's that too, but I wouldn't call that fun.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Well, so then I thought ref this is where I the lawyer brain came in because I thought, well, it's the reflection. It's the that was just like the first word was like, it's the reflection. It's the it's the more solitude. Like a lot of times the temple, at least for me, not for but it the
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): temple is more a solitude, you know, it's the Yeah, they're they're more somber, but I don't want to say somber with an any form of there's no judgment in that word, or if there's a less judgmental word, use that there.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): because it's just you know, I don't think of those things as quote fun. But but you know, like the story with me riding out to the temple to release my husband, that was playful to me. Was it fun? I mean there were moments of fun, like the rain and the dragonflies and that was but but I
David: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): don't know if I understand the def difference between fun and play. We can't wait to have that chat with you,
David: so so let's let's talk about this. you know, I I think that, you know, there's something
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): You might think you know.
David: about Burning Man that it's it's in the popular zeitgeist enough that I think people have a pretty good sense of whether it's for them or not. For some people they like the idea of the art, but they can't deal with the the the the the difficulties of camping. For other people, they're like, those just don't look like the kind of people I want to spend a week with. I mean, set all that aside. But for the person that the the the burning man curious that hasn't been, how how do you kind of talk to somebody about like why they should still consider going to Burning Man? Or or or a kind of a secondary question, or is there a way to enjoy Burning Man without going? Is there is there something that that I can burn at home? I can kind of like just get a get a th some of it without getting dirty.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I just
David: So how how do you how do we get people into the Burning Man fun? How do we get them excited about it?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): my gosh. Well, I love that you said without getting dirty, because when you said it, my first thought was like, go get some baby powder. Start doing this to the bottle. Okay, rest
David: Spread it everywhere.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): up. No dirt, no getting dirty.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well, so first I think the answer is yes, you can burn from home. Literally on burn night, and I think actually all week, there is a live stream from the radio station BMIR, and it's on YouTube, I believe. So we live streams.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Burn week. It might I don't know if it's up excuse me during build week. So there's a week prior burn week starts the s at midnight on the Sunday before Labor Day a whole week before Labor Day weekend. Build week starts
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): the prior Sunday. So I don't know how long it's up. But in any event, so yes, you can watch the you can watch the that that's on this road called Espinada looks out at the man. So you can kind of see what's happening and really you know, in real time. but But it's an experience. It's not so I don't think you can truly experience the burn except for at the burn, but there are also regional burns around the co around the world. There's one in Africa, there's one in has been one in Miami. There have been I don't know, there's a handful of them. And and they're like TEDx things. Like the Burning Man organization is involved and they're
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): and they're supporting it. and then there's decompressions, which often happen right after the burn in in bigger cities generally, but sometimes mid year. and and you know if you the word burner, even though it d derived from the you know burning man or a burner if you go
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): avidly and enjoy it. if you type in burning you know burner activities or you know into Facebook or wherever you you know get your like things to do, it'll definitely bring up like options of things that are identi and that's a like okay trademark use by the community is to say it's a burner thing. So it's a cool way
David: Okay.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): to like get a get a toe in. but really I don't think there's any way to experience it besides going. And so the reasons that you're gonna come with me next year in
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): your own RV, but well prepared, because like, you know the professor of fun who has if he said burning man curious, there's like
David: Yes.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): you know, you'll you'll make it you can't make the dust dot. Well sometimes it doesn't come at all. But yeah, it it you would love it. I mean just having met you in Exeter, I I immediately was like, my God, you go, right? And you were like but I think the r the reasons to go are for the for the novelty, for the for the, you know, what what Mahali Shikt Mihai calls the flow state. because you as someone who loves fun, as someone who knows that that's, you know, a thing that their brain enjoys, I don't see a way that you wouldn't just love it, but but it does come with the trade
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): off of harsh environmental conditions.
David: Well, I I think you've you've uncovered my my secret, which is this entire episode of the podcast was to talk me into going to Burning Man next year. So you you've you've pushed me a little further to the edge. Well, listen, this has been a great conversation and it's almost seems like I don't need to do this, but you know, part of the show is I end on three kind of wacky questions. So I gotta ask you some oddball
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I love it.
David: random questions, but they may just sound like normal Burning Man questions in the context of this conversation. So the first thing I I wanted to ask you. is s so the so Burning Man is a is a gift economy. People don't buy and sell things. And so people are wandering around giving things away. In in your twenty years, what's the weirdest gift you've ever received at Burning Man?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): my gosh. Well, I'm just gonna say the thing that comes to mind. So there's a wishing well in kids' camp. It's on the edge of kids' camp. Kids camp is protected by an ele orange fence and but there's a wishing
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well. And so this was like my I don't know, third or fourth year. And I go and I say l like laughter and bacon or something, giggles and bacon, and I throw and you put your
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): your address, because it is a city, so you have addresses. So I put my address and
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): I and I throw it in. And like three hours later, someone comes in camp and they're Hey ping foam, which is my playa name. They're like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): You know, we got a delivery. And I was like, What? And they come up and it's this, I don't know, six year old girl and her mom, and she's just like being super goofy and like does a little performance and I'm like in stitches and I'm like, okay, I'm like
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): d you know, like still not have any idea where they came from or what they're here about. And then they're like and look and it's I'd never even seen this before. It's pre made bacon that you literally you
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): could eat it, Rob, but it tastes yucky that way. But they're like, just put it on the hood of your car and it'll cook in the sun. And I was
David: Ha ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): like, They're like, we brought you tinfoil too. And like they literally make it and they're like, we'll just hang out and like do our little dance until like and the thing cooked and we shared like bacon. And I was like, Are you serious? You can just go to a wishing well and wish for laughter and bacon and that shows up.
David: And it shows up.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): So yeah. I don't know if it's the weirdest, but it was it was I was like, I'm never coming I'm never not coming there.
David: Well that's yeah, that's that's magical. So okay, so here's your next question. What burning man principle or practice would you bring back into the real world if you could?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): well it's funny that you asked that. do you want a long or short answer?
David: No, these are supposed to be short, so it ch you gotta like to get to the point. Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): gosh. I well, right now I think civic engagement.
David: yeah, yeah, no kidding, right, right. N enough said on that, yes. Absolutely. And and maybe more giggles and bacon. Okay, last
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Yeah.
David: question. Last question here. you've been twenty times. What would your friends and and fellow burners say is your burner superpower?
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): it what is my burner superpower well i'd say sparkling but that's my default world's superpower superpower
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): as well so my god I have I literally have no idea. I'm trying to think of like what would they
David: Ha ha ha.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): say and I and like which group of friends, but I'm thinking the spluffy crew, which has a big school bus that's a floating cloud bank.
David: Yeah.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Well maybe then I live up to my name, ping pong, because I'm like I mean it's also same same with the real world. Sometimes people
David: Yeah,
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): hear ping pong and they're like, 'cause the A D D and I'm like, Yeah, well, touche. No,
David: Ha ha
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): we c it came from somewhere else, but it applies. There you go.
David: There you go. Hey, that that it all counts. I mean, I can't imagine a conversation with Burning Man having a real direct linear analytical line of thought. That that might actually be pointless, right? But I've really had I've really had a great time ping ponging around with you about what Burning Man is and why or why not it, where it's fun, where it might not be fun. It's just been great. And I'm, you know, I got a whole year to think about it, but I gotta figure out how to get to Burning Man next year.
Ping Pong (Lara the Lawyer ): Thank you so much, David. It's been a great time.
David: Thanks. So the cat's out of the bag. The professor of fun has never been to Burning Man. I always like to say I knew about it early on and I just couldn't do it, kids, life, job. And then when I had the ability to maybe get out of the house and go to it, then I thought, you know, it's kinda it's cliche to go to Burning Man. Well, let's just face it, I'm probably afraid. I'm afraid of the dirt, I'm afraid of the heat, I'm afraid of not having the right equipment or not being cool enough or having enough shiny clothes. But really I I think I gotta go. And and why do I have to go? Partly because of this ongoing fascination I have with play and and fun. And I think from the outside at least, and from everyone I've ever talked to, Burning Man is fun. And and why is it fun? I think at the bottom line of it, Burning Man is a functioning civil society with a fire department, with police, with with medical professionals, with a radio station, with essentially rules or laws. I mean, you know, it's a city. It it runs like a city of seventy plus thousand people. You you can't You can't run anarchy at that scale. so there's organization, and and and clearly there's enough organization that it happens every year and people are able to go and enjoy it. So you've got this real city, but what's different about it? It's a city where nobody is working to work, nobody's working to live. Specifically, people are working together to create this environment that opposes the the hostilities of of nature in order to have this communal experience. And the core of that, I mean, there's these 10 principles that Burning Man has, which are fantastic. But I think when I look at it from the perspective of fun, what I think Burning Man really is, is a gigantic city that fully gives you permission to play. And in my work with professors at play, and in my work sometimes as the professor of play, I'll give talks and workshops, and it doesn't matter how long they are. At the end of the day, I'm usually just telling adults it's okay to play. And and and also it's okay to play in the ways that you like to play. It's not like there's a certain prescribed way that you're supposed to play. Well, that just punches all the buttons for Bernie Man. Bernie Man says calm and short of hurting the environment or other people, let your freak flag fly. If if it seems fun to you to to set up a slip and slide in the middle of the desert, go for it. If it seems fun to you to set up a a fortune-telling magic show in the middle of the desert, go for it. If it seems fun to you to set up the world's largest ring around the rosy, go for it. It really doesn't tell you what to do in terms of how to play. And so not only does it give you permission to play, it gives you the permission to play the way you want to. Now, for me, the core of fun, what makes fun so compelling to us as human beings is that fun creates this state that I've talked about in my previous podcast of the is not, this ambiguity of things that allows you to make meaning. And that's really important. When you go to school, generally speaking, you go to you know, a serious art, you know, you're there to receive wisdom. When you go to church, you're there to receive wisdom and understanding. You're being taught. there's not a lot of place to make your own meaning. play is the place where you get to decide good guys, bad guys. I'm alive, I'm not alive, you know, that was a goal, that wasn't a goal. What truly a play. Everything's negotiated, and the only real underlying rule of all play is like, let's just keep changing the play so it'll continue. so so this meaning making, and and again, there's a lot to say there. Burning Man is a place where people go and make their own meaning. And not only do they make their own meaning, they make their own meaning in public. So my performance, my meaning making is done starting with me, then it becomes collaborative with others. So you think about the example that Laura said where They're following the flaming octopus, and then they meet up the another car, and then they decide to collaborate, and they decide to have a dance party. It's like these different pods of meaning kind of coalesce and then they collide and they make shared meaning. And I know this sounds like, what are you talking about? Well, it's because I think that Burning Man is the most unique thing that I know about in the world of creating play at scale. And when you create play at scale, you create ripples of human freedom and effect that we don't really even understand what those mean. And I know I don't understand what it means because I've talked to people that come back from Burning Man and they have almost this religious reverie. They can't quite put into words what happened to them. And I think that's just it. I think that in a playful society, we might live in that state where we would go, as Laura says, between the the the sacred. and and and and and the mundane. We would go between play and the divine. And I think there's something really wonderful about that. so I can't say for sure what Burning Man is. I know when it happens, I know what the rules are, because you can read about those. But I suspect that Burning Man is the best blueprint we have so far of truly what a playful society could be and what's possible. So there you have it. I gotta go to Burning Man next year. See if I can make it.
