WEBVTT
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But without testing, they're just guesting.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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They were just I think it could be happening here.
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Let's put a big thing of open cell spray foam along this theme and that'll fix it.
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Yeah, just throwing different stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks.
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And nothing stuck.
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Welcome to the Flow Lab, the podcast where we dive deep into the science of building performance and HBAC innovation.
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Today we bring you another insightful episode into enhance your knowledge and expertise in the field.
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Joining us are your co-hosts, Ben Walker, co-CEO of RetroTech, and Stan Myers, a renowned building science specialist and retrotech trainer.
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Together, they bring a wealth of experience and knowledge to ensure our discussions are both informative and engaging.
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So sit back, relax, and get ready to enter the flow lab where we'll explore the world of building performance.
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Let's get started.
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Well, uh, Michael Greg, thanks for joining us.
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And uh for those of you watching or will be listening, um, I guess you'll see that we also have a new co-host with us uh for this episode, too.
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Uh, I'd like to introduce uh Lee Canigalley from our uh tech support team and our uh dev team too.
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So Lee is kind of the guy that's behind the scenes to make uh all of our software work these days.
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So uh, you know, no pressure on that at all.
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No pressure and uh yeah, that's that's our motto, right?
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No pressure.
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Except for when we need it for the blower door, right?
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Yeah, except for when it's but uh yeah, so Lee's gonna Lee's helping me uh co-host this week or uh for this episode.
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And uh we brought in uh Greg and Michael uh because I think for you know our companies that we work with across North America, they're the ones that probably do the widest variety of testing.
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Um they're not just doing home performance, uh they're also getting into some commercial work well, as well as the enclosure integrity side of things for the fire industry.
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Um and Michael, you called me a few days ago uh talking about testing what?
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That was that gas tracer technology.
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They wanted us they wanted us, they want us to test those prefabed blast proof buildings that are constructed out of metal, and they're brought and then they're brought in off-site.
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They're you know, between uh a thousand square feet and four hundred square feet, and they're blast proof, and so they want us to they want us to do a gas tracer test to find where the air leaks are because they replaced the HVAC dampers.
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So we're trying to convince them, and I guess we're still in a process of trying to convince them to let us come in and do an ASTM E779 blower door test and lure up the gas tracer.
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Yeah, in my experience, if they're asking for that, it's because they're just not aware of blower door testing.
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Um yeah, hopefully they'll they'll decide to go that route.
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But what what are the those blast uh proof rooms?
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What are they uh typically used in?
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Uh industrial settings where there's uh a risk of explosion or or some kind of volatile leak of some sort.
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A lot of the uh refineries, a lot of the chemical manufacturers here in the South Louisiana area all have to have shelters in place due to all the dangerous chemicals they play with.
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So uh they they they all have shelters in place, and several of them have since I guess the federal government said, hey, you're gonna have shelters in place for these employees.
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And through the last 15-20 years, they've rotated out the old brick and mortar and drywall and stick built SIPs and changed them over to these prefab metal buildings that are that can withstand a bomb blast and also can be made airtight.
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Wow.
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That's really interesting.
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So let's kind of I guess back up and start more at the beginning.
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Um Greg, you and Michael have been doing this for quite a while.
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What what got you started and into airtightness testing and and building performance?
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Um Thanks for having us.
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Um I had a house that was really um in bad shape, but my wife was in love with it.
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So uh she had to promise me that she would let me do whatever I had to do before we moved in.
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And that's how I started researching.
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You know, uh their utility bills were just outrageous that this is what she wanted.
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So then I came across Retrotech, across uh some people that could test it, and I was just so amazed that I said, Man, I'm gonna get into that.
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That is that I had such a great feeling.
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I'm I'm gonna give that to others.
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Yeah.
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That's kind of how I started, and just plowed through and learned it uh a little bit from you know Retrotech.
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I took all the classes and then uh ordered the different equipment and just started going for it.
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Yeah, I feel like that's how a lot of us learn the best is just dealing with it personally, right?
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You've got to that's I don't know if our house was that bad when we bought it, but it was we bought it a few years ago.
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It was built in 92 with absolutely nothing performance-wise in mind, and about 30 years of of bad advice and uh and and repairs that I've been seeing along the way as I've been working on it.
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But yeah, I've learned a ton just by working on my own place with my own problems.
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So now that's that's amazing.
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So so you started out uh doing this from the residential side.
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How did you get more into some of the commercial uh stuff that you're doing now?
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A couple of clients that we had done residential work uh contacted us because they there's quite a number of plants and different types of uh you know sensitive uh material location, manufacturers and stuff all along the Gulf Coast and the Mississippi River runs right through Baton Rouge.
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And that also is a good transport for a lot of companies, and so they're all down here in South Louisiana and start going for it.
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Yeah, Michael, if you want to just kind of give us a rundown of what enclosure integrity is and just how that ties into the fire industry and how a blorador is involved with that.
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So any of any of these buildings that have the fire suppression system that uses anything but water, so any type of gas or or fire suppressant, we come in uh and basically just like we're doing in Fantastic, and we measure the room, we get the the dimensions, and then we use the blower door to see how long the agent will actually hold in the air because the agent has to hold for 10 minutes minimum for it to be a good test.
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And uh like Greg said, all up and down the Mississippi River and all along the Gulf Coast, there's so many different chemical companies and refineries that they've all got these fire suppression systems in them.
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So now it's a matter of, hey, when was the last time they were tested?
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Or they've never been tested.
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Well, how do you know if it trips, it's gonna put the fire out?
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Well, we don't.
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So let us come in and test it.
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Or a lot of times we'll partner with a fire suppression company like a Valin or a Pi Barker or somebody that's that's got their foot in the door and they say, Well, we're gonna install the system, but we want a third party to come in and test and verify that it's gonna do what we said it's gonna do.
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And so we just pick our way around to whoever needs us and offer our services and away we go.
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Yeah, that's that's uh that's really cool.
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So basically it's you're you're testing the room uh to make sure that whatever's in there will be protected, you know, from whatever you know, whatever chemical is going to be used.
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And let's say if it's a server room or something, that gas that's used uh to protect it has to retain at a certain height for a certain amount of time.
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Correct.
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Yeah, yeah, and it also has to stay at that certain height and it has to be a certain concentration for that 10-minute time period.
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And if all of that happens correctly, then it's supposed to extinguish the fire.
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And in some of these server rooms, we were in one several years ago.
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The the server room was a hundred million dollars.
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Wow, and they and they were squawking at us about the price of our test.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, you've got a hundred million dollar room full of equipment, but you want to nickel and dime us over the cost of this test that's gonna tell you whether or not the the room will actually be extinguished if the fire alarm is tripped.
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Yeah, it seems a little too important to to nickel and dime on for sure.
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Yes.
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So you guys are located in in South Louisiana.
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Um in the work that you're doing now, about how much of it is is commercial versus residential, or is it like an even spread, or does it change?
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It's very fluid.
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Um I just got done doing a lot of residential, code compliance, residential stuff, and then we're probably next week gonna be thrown right back into the refinery, and it's gonna be room integrity again.
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Uh and so we're gonna be air sealing a blast proof control room and then testing and verifying that it's gonna hold for X amount of minutes and stuff like that.
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But it I would probably say 70, 30, 70 residential, 30, 30 industrial, commercial.
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Okay.
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But last year it might have been 60 commercial and 40 residential.
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So it's very fluid.
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Yeah, it's just who who needs us the most and who's willing to pay and and and actually write the check and let's go.
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A lot of people want us to say, we can come in and do this, this, and this, and they're like, great, and we're two years out, and there's, hey, are you ready to come do this?
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Yeah, we were ready two years ago, but yeah, we're just now getting the PO.
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So you know.
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Yeah, that's something about you guys too, is that you're not just testing, you're actually doing the air sealing uh as well.
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So um, was that always the plan?
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Uh, or did it just become uh a need that needed to be filled that you were willing to offer?
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Or uh how did you get into that too?
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Well, once we started testing, they were like failing and they were looking at us going, what do we do?
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And so we started I started uh investigating it and realizing that that was probably the bigger part of the opportunity was that if somebody did fail, they would not know how to repair it or bring it up to code.
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And that's when we uh I started doing the uh air sealing.
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Yeah, that makes sense to be uh you know just kind of the one-stop shop.
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It's like, okay, yeah, here's here's the test.
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Okay, if it fails, we can tell you why and we can fix it.
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I mean, it it makes sense.
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We see a lot of that too.
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We see some weatherization companies that are, you know, doing a lot of that.
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Um we see some HVAC companies that are kind of starting to get into that too.
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But I'm uh I'm assuming in the commercial work that you do, it might be a little bit different.
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Like, for example, if you're if you're testing, you know, a blast-proof room or something like that, like what are you gonna use to seal that if it doesn't uh if it doesn't pass?
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Well, we uh you know initially investigate what the uh pressure might be, but most of the time just air sealing, you know, spray foam and uh some tape.
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Fire fire related, fire-related materials on any of the NFPA stuff.
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You've got to have all fire related, and that's where the expense comes from.
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One one tube of a certain sealant is$120 plus tax.
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So if you use 50 of those in a room, you've built up some pretty sizable uh bills, some extra costs there.
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We've had several that uh repurposed their their room because they didn't like how much it was gonna cost to bring it up to speed.
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Yeah, that's I mean that's part of it, right?
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I mean, if it's gonna work, it's gotta be tight, and you know, that doesn't happen for free.
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So well, and and above the ceiling, sometimes it's another 15-20 feet.
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We have to get scaffolding in and the cost just starts really ramping up.
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Yeah, I can imagine so.
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Uh especially those spaces get pretty large.
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Of the enclosures that you all test, how often do you run into that situation where like things just aren't going to work out and the client ends up just going a different route versus trying to seal it and get a pass?
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Not very many.
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I mean, there's been a few times where they said, yeah, we just won't use this for a shelter in place, or we won't we won't store this vital equipment in here maybe three or four times out of all the stuff.
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And I've been with Greg five years, so uh that's not it doesn't happen very often because the fact that they've already got so much time and money invested into these rooms and the equipment is so vital to the production of the facility that it's it's worth it for them to either try to hire a crew and come in and do it or pay us to do it.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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I'm sure if they uh if they can't use that room as they were planning to, that probably throws a big wrench into things as well.
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So Right.
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If you've got uh you know ten million dollars worth of servers in a room, you're not just gonna up and move the server room.
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Exactly.
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You've got to figure it out.
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So when you're doing the uh when you're doing the fire test, the enclosure integrity test, is it usually for server rooms um that you're seeing down where you are?
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It could be there it could be for anything, but a lot of it is the server rooms, but any room that's protected by by fire protection equipment, really, so it doesn't matter what's in the room, it's just is there a fire suppression system in here other than water?
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Yes, okay, then it needs to be tested and and we need to verify.
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It's more um is the facility protected by an agent, regardless of what it's you know, protecting, whether it's uh compute primarily computers, but also all other sorts of uh equipment.
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So back when you guys, when you started out, you know, you were doing you you went from residential to going into more of this commercial work.
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What was the learning curve like going from just doing like residential blower door testing, getting into something like this?
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I mean, how how how was the work different?
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What else is there uh what is what else is there extra to learn about it?
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Opening every conduit.
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You don't uh taking every plate off the wall, whether it's a switch plate or an outlet cover and completely air sealing that.
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You don't typically do that in every house you go into.
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Yeah.
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Um anywhere there's a penetration of any kind through the through the envelope, you've got to trace it down and figure out, hey, can it leak into the building or can it leak around the penetration?
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And it's just it's tedious.
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The materials all have to be fire rated and they're super expensive, and you just gotta go uh you know foot by foot, completely the all four walls and ceiling and the floors and figure it out.
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Yeah.
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A lot of the rooms that we have have a subfloor, and that brings another level of uh complication.
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You pull up the floor tile and you look, oh, there's 10,000 cables that go in through 10,000 holes.
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So here we go.
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We gotta seal them.
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Yeah, so that space below is actually gonna be part of the enclosure that you're testing, right?
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So you have to take that into consideration too and see where it leads and connects to.
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So yeah, that's a big thing down here back in the they built these a lot of these in the 50s and 60s out of solid concrete block.
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But then, okay, well, we need to run wires.
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Well, let's get a roto hammer and drill through the bricks, and we'll just run our cable through there, and everything will be great.
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Under out of sight, out of mine, under the floor, it's all good, right?
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No, it doesn't work like that.
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We've got to we've got to wall that off now and figure out how we can get enough material in between all of those cables to make it airtight or at least tight enough that it will hold for the specified hold time.
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And there's a software component that's that's involved with this too, um, that may not always be involved with residential.
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Correct.
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Yeah, we we just faced that with one of our clients that we're dealing with now, is they had 2% concentration and they've had it since the 80s, and they assumed that that was enough to extinguish the fire.
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I'm like, dude, we can't even go forward with the test.
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We have to stop right here because there's not enough agent in these canisters to even complete the test.
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We can't we can't move forward.
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We have to stop and be done until you verify there's enough agent to get to the 7% concentration based on the volume of the room.
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That just happened in December with one of our clients here in Baton Rouge that we're dealing with.
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And so they're going back and talking to the designer of the system, and they're trying to but yeah, the sit the the software, you know, the NFPA software that you guys make says it has to be 7% or higher for this particular concentration of this agent, and they had two.
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And I thought I was the crazy one, and it turns out no, I talked to Lee, I talked to people, and they're like, Well, you can't go forward with the test.
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There's nothing to test, there's not enough agent, there's not enough concentration.
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Wow.
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So so that maybe wasn't so much of a problem with the room itself, that was just the the system that was designed.
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And we don't know that we don't know how leaky the room is because we never got to that step.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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So and can you imagine, you know, you've got uh$70 million worth of stuff sitting in a room that you assume is protected for the last 30 years, and had there actually been a fire and you pushed a button, I doubt it would have extinguished anything.
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Yeah, that's scary.
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Mm-hmm.
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So yeah, so with this, uh yeah, the software that's used is called uh Fantastic.
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Fantastic is what we use to do a lot of large commercial building tests.
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Fantastic integrity is a separate piece of software that's used specifically for this, the enclosure integrity uh for the fire uh side of the industry.
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Um, and that's something that our one of our founders, Colin Genge, came up with back in the 80s, um, where he figured out that, yeah, we could actually use blower doors to figure out problems in these types of rooms.
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And um and it's been adopted worldwide ever since.
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And um, I think it's really great that you guys have gotten into this because like I said, you guys are the only ones that I know of in the US that are doing this and home performance.
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Um, it's more common in in Europe and other parts of the world where they'll kind of do like both kinds of testing, but yeah, as far as I know, you guys are the only ones doing it.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:12.559
So across the wide variety of blower door tests that you guys have conducted, what would you say might be the most unique uh project that you've worked on?
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Holy cow.
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I've since sorry, I threw that one at you.
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Uh uh some pictures to you and Lee of you know the guy that aired that I went and tested his little uh 900 square foot house, and I told him you have to airseal where the where the floor meets the walls.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:57.039
And you remember he went out with a can of that cheap spray foam and he went around the actual piers that go up into the house where the piers and the dirt meet, and he put foam around every one of those piers to airseal that house, and then they put trash in the actual space where you should have put the insulation and the spray foam.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.000
You remember that?
00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:58.720
I think I've got a lot of things.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:11.839
Yeah, that one was just a few weeks ago, just a huge mountain of foam, probably four feet tall from the dirt all the way to the uh floor joist of the house.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.440
That one was yeah, and they were having cupping issues with their hardwood floors in their master area.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:29.440
And I'm like, yeah, I can't get under there to inspect it for you because you've literally built a mountain of foam so so large that I couldn't fit my body in there to get to get in there to look.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:34.720
So I've seen some strange things, and and usually when I see them, you guys see them.
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.319
So I appreciate the photos.
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:41.200
The one where the man died?
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:43.759
Oh, I don't know how much we can talk.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:55.119
Well, we we were just called in to come down to a house in the New Orleans area where entergy is our one of our major energy suppliers, and they dug up a gas line in front of a house.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:55.759
Oh no.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:02.480
Left it open all night, and three people in the house asphyxiated, and there's lawyers involved.
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:31.200
So we had to go down there uh two weeks ago, and we used uh smoke bombs and a and a blower door fan to prove the theory that if gas was was emitting from this hole from this leak all night long, that it could, and we we used the smoke bombs, and they went when we turned the fan on and blew it toward the the venting under the uh crawl space of the house, the venting, which is right next to this hole where this gas line was leaking.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:46.640
And the the attorneys and the architect and the engineer went in and they videoed and it showed the smoke coming into the bedrooms and coming down the halls and going into the return of the HVAC system and being blown through the whole house.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.680
It was incredible.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.079
It's a terrible situation, but it was a super nervous.
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:57.839
Yeah, that's fascinating.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:08.000
But you know, we get into all All kinds of strange situations that you're normal just going in and doing code compliance blower door testing and duck leakage testing don't get into.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.400
So I would say so.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:18.880
And I think it's interesting too that uh you know when I asked you what's the most unique test of out of all the stuff you do, it both of them were residential.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:24.960
Um because when you get into existing homes, I mean it's especially for me, it's something new every time.
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.160
You don't know what's going to be behind the wall or under the house or in the attic.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.079
It's just uh it's yeah, let's see what happens.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:32.559
Yeah.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:40.880
So I mean, we've been in some situations in the commercial side and the industrial side, but it but usually those places are sort of buttoned up.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.480
They've sort of got their act together.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:47.599
They know, hey, there's somebody's life is on the line if this isn't somewhat correct.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:49.839
So they try a little harder.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:58.799
But we've seen some junk on the industrial side too that they called shelters in place, and you'd be better off standing in a field than you would be going into this room.
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:00.160
Oh wow.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:01.599
Yeah.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:02.160
Yeah.
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:08.799
Anybody out there that listens to the podcast and wants to get in touch with us, we'll we'll travel anywhere in the country and test and do this.
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:19.359
We've we've done all over the Gulf South, and we're we're willing to travel anywhere and share our expertise and show people how to do it or what have you.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:38.000
Yeah, so that's where um that's if you at if you were to take someone that's really just kind of has a residential background and wanted to maybe explore into this territory a little bit into getting into more of the commercial work, um, what would be some of your recommendations or or advice?
00:23:41.440 --> 00:24:07.920
Yeah, well, you're gonna need a lot of certifications, you're gonna need a what they call a Twit card, you're gonna need to do a lot of the site-specific training courses, the any of the OSHA certified eight-hour safety courses, and then the any particular industry that you're going into each has their own specific two to three hour test that you have to take just to come on site.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:13.359
So you've got to go through all of that testing and then uh mentioned your your apparel.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:20.240
Oh, you've got to have fire-rated m uh apparel from head to toe, hard hats, safety boots, the whole spiel.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:22.960
But um it can be done.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:34.720
And uh all you've got to do is get to the right safety person or the the right engineer at any of these facilities and say, hey, when was the last time any of your shelters in place were tested?
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.680
When was the last time your rooms were tested for integrity if they have fire suppression?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.680
And away you go.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:46.319
You just, you know, you start the bid process and start taking measurements.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:48.640
Yeah, the liability is an issue also.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:49.440
Oh, yeah.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:57.200
You've got to have several million dollar blanket umbrella policies and and and insurances to cover you and your employees.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:02.640
And usually when we get a new client, they have a different requirement than our past clients.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.759
So we have to free up all over again.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:06.559
Right.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:15.519
Yeah, I'm sure every job site's probably different, you know, especially maybe if you're getting into federal property or something like that, where you have to have you know special training for that specific site.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:17.839
Um, I've I've had to go through that before.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.400
So yeah, commercial is a different beast.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:21.599
Um absolutely.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.920
So yeah, I commend you guys for for tackling both because it's it's not easy.
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.160
And uh to be able to have that experience is uh on both sides is super valuable.
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:39.920
So I've found that uh with when you say commercial, I think of retail, striping office buildings, you know, those type of things.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:55.839
And they uh because of the way I don't know if it's everywhere, but in Louisiana, the owner of the building doesn't care because all the um tenants, you know, the utilities are the responsibility of the whoever's occupying the space.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.480
Right.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.240
So it's everybody's job becomes nobody's job, and they have these huge utility bills, but they're unwilling.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:18.400
You know, we can go in and we we've we've bid several jobs, but we don't get very many because they look at the price tag and they can't really justify on a three-year lease uh investing, which would be, you know, probably a lot more than uh Yeah, because they're not the ones that are actually saving the money on it.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:19.359
So no.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:20.480
Yeah.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:31.039
We had one situation that it was a cigar bar on the end of a strip mall, and the cigar smoke kept floating down to all the other inhabitants in the strip mall.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:37.920
And that was we were called in two or three different times on that same project, and uh we haven't been called in a while.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.880
Owner lived in Ohio that owned the strip mall, right?
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:53.359
And we're in South Louisiana, and and so the cigar bar on the end is the bad guy because its smoke is going down and infiltrating one, two, three, four other spaces in this strip mall.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.640
So we air sealed and air sealed and air sealed, and then okay, everything's great.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.519
And then a year later our phone ring, it's the same guy.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.480
Hey, guess what?
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:04.240
They're still getting cigar smoke.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.920
So we found out it was the fire break in between.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:21.440
There's a outside of the building, there's a you know, maybe a six four and a half by six, four and a half foot wide by maybe three and a half foot tall space that runs the whole length of the building.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:32.319
So they actually had to build a wall to stop the smoke from because it was coming out of the door up through the fire chase and going down through the front of the buildings and then infiltrating back in.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:33.359
So they wow.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.799
I actually, the last guy that called me, that's what I told him to do.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:52.319
Figure out a way to build a fireproof wall out of some cement board or something, something that's gonna not burn or burn slow enough that, and then so that's what they did, and then they used fire-rated materials and they actually closed that breeze way off.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:58.799
It's everything's above your above a finished ceiling, so they couldn't see any of it, but we haven't been called back since.
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.960
So I guess no news is good news.
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:04.240
Right, and that was the one headache of a commercial job.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:11.279
We like to classify all these other ones that we do as industrial because it's usually a plant setting of some sort.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:12.960
So yeah.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.319
But so with the cigar shop, the strip mall, how did you find that uh that air leakage pathway?
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.880
Just blow a door, just a blower door and did you use uh like fog or anything like that?
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.079
Or did you just were you able to feel uh a breeze through that area?
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:33.279
We could see, you could visually see a lot of it because you could see daylight going into the other shop.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:39.599
Oh wow of the where the walls met, you know, and then uh we used the tiny S smoke device.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:56.400
And uh and I think some of it too, which probably hasn't been resolved, is they needed to put backdraft dampers on the bathroom exhaust fans because they're just exhausting up above the drop ceiling, they're not exhausting out of the roof.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:57.200
Oh no.
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:07.039
And so you've got the restrooms for women's and men's for a bar, but there's also staff ref restrooms on the other side that that are right up against the next tenant.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:07.519
Okay.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:15.599
So they need to figure out a way to stop the smoke from going up into the fan and in just into the the space.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.720
Or vent those to the outside like they're supposed to be.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:19.519
Correct.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:20.400
They weren't.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:21.759
So yeah.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.359
But they this place had, I don't know, five or six what they call industrial smoke scrubbers that were in the actual lounge park.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:29.920
Yeah.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.440
None of that made a difference.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:33.119
Yeah, you know, I wouldn't think so at all.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:42.319
It was all just and you could see where this somebody had come in at some point and spray foamed all of this with their their their heavy-duty, you know, commercial spray.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:49.279
And then you can see where they've tried to tape this and that, and you know, but without testing, they're just guesting.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:49.680
Yep.
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:50.079
Right?
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.880
They were just yeah, I think it could be happening here.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:55.839
Let's put a big thing of closed cell spray foam.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.599
I think they used open cell, but either way, let's put a big thing of open cell spray foam along this seam and that'll fix it.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:06.160
Yeah, just throwing different stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks, and nothing's stuck.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.720
And so until we got in there, we put the blower door on it.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:16.960
Oh, yeah, well, here's a whole seam that runs the whole length of this wall that connects right next to the dress shop that's complaining about the smoke smell.
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.519
Let's uh let's seal this wall and see what happens.
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:20.000
Yeah.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:22.000
I had something similar.
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:40.880
I had a uh a hotel that I tested uh towards the end of last year uh that was having high humidity issues, and the the new owners just bought it, and uh they went through one summer and uh called me over the winter to come check it out, and they had their all of their bath fans just vented into the into the space above the attic that was spray foamed.
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:55.680
And then uh but we fogged it too and found that whoever did the spray foam job just went down the roof deck towards the soffit and then just foamed it to the loose fill fiberglass installation and stopped right there.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.160
Yeah, so it went around the foam, under the loose fill, and right where it wanted to go.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:00.799
Yeah.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.559
So holy cow.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.799
Yeah, existing buildings, you'll you'll find some some funky stuff for sure.
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.039
Yeah, but somebody paid a lot of money, probably several tens of thousands to do a whole hook.
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.039
Yeah, they did three buildings like that.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.400
So I would say that's probably 30 to 40k.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:17.920
Yeah, at least.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.000
And it didn't do anything because they didn't know what they were doing.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:22.799
Right?
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:23.359
Yeah.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:29.200
What other questions do you want to try to answer while we're yeah, we've we've covered a lot.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.200
Um, you know, we've we've talked about all different kinds of testing some different projects.
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:48.079
If you were to give any parting words to anyone that's coming into the building performance industry, whether if it's residential, commercial, or industrial, um, because the workforce for all of it is is you know, we can take whoever we can get that's willing to learn it.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:54.160
Um there's not a lot of companies um that are doing this kind of work, and we need it as many people as we can get.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:32:01.359
So um for newcomers that are coming into this kind of stuff, what um what would you advise?
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:03.200
Training.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.359
Training, training, training.
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:16.960
Learn as much as you can, nerd out, go deep, go down the rabbit hole, as far as you can go, and then a lot of it's just trial and error.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:25.839
Uh you know, if you don't know, ask somebody, call you guys, call retrotech, call Lee, call somebody and say, hey, here's what I'm looking at.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:27.839
What would you suggest?
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:40.079
But uh the main thing is get get trained, go through all of the classes you guys offer, take some from some of your competitors, BPI, anybody, but get trained.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:51.359
The more training you have, the better off because you you're likely gonna see something along the way in all of those training classes that you can use when you get up against a strange situation.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:52.319
Absolutely.
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:52.960
I agree.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.599
Greg, you've been you've been doing this for for quite some time.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.359
Is there anything you wish you would have known before you got into any of this that you know now?
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:16.079
Uh well the uh it did change the I don't know what I would call it, the um the playing field changed uh once everybody had to do it.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:27.519
Uh you know, so that really complicated it for our business because that meant there was a greater need than we could meet by far.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:36.720
I mean, very you know, and so people that were in the HVAC's business thought they could do this on the side and serve their clients that way.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:39.200
And this is more for the residential side, correct?
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:39.839
Correct.
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:43.759
Yeah, when it went in when the building code got got implemented in 2015.
00:33:44.160 --> 00:34:20.480
So that uh and we had and the only reason I mentioned is we had to come behind many uh apparently finished jobs that were still a problem, many of them after they'd already been moved in, and um, you know, they were having really serious humidity issues, and down here, uh, you know, there's a lot of moisture in the air, and then it gets trapped, and then it it starts the the biological growth syndrome kicks in, and it's complicated and dangerous.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:31.679
And uh we've seen the results of it, so we are firsthand look seeing that nasty mold or whatever it is, and what it does to people and to material.
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.679
So that's that's kind of I don't know if that answers your question or not, but that's that's what's on my mind.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:39.440
Yeah, no, I'm right there with you.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:47.840
Um, I'm in the southeast also, not as far south as you guys are, but um a humid climate is is tough to make a building behave in.
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.239
Um everything has to go right.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:55.920
So um I would say that's probably the in my area, at least probably yours too.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.880
It you usually the phone rings for existing buildings because of something humidity related.
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.079
Oh, 100%.
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:03.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.159
Yeah.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:13.039
That and and the builders think we're the bad guys and that the government's just out for more money, that all these tests are BS and there's no reason to do them.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.480
A house needs to breathe.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:16.880
All of the stories you've heard your whole life.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:27.199
I mean Michael get a good kick out of uh we find it's hard to get the information out of them because they're kicking it down, but they don't want to admit it because they're uncomfortable.
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:33.760
But if they told us they were uncomfortable, we could help them meet their goals, and so it's a kind of an endless loop.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.880
But so that's it.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.960
We kind of laugh at that when we encounter that.
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:37.280
It's funny.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.119
What do you leave your thermostat set at?
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:40.320
Oh, 75.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:56.480
And then you go in and the day you're testing, and you look at oh, this thermostat set at 64, and you're wondering why there's mold on the second story, but there's nothing happening on the first floor, it's all on the second floor, and you're like, wow, okay.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.400
So, yeah.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:04.480
You you get to meet a lot of different people and you get to see a lot of different things in this business, that's for sure.
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:05.199
Yeah.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:08.320
It's uh one physics lesson after another.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.639
Yes, and I really didn't do physics in college or high school.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:19.519
I went the other way in with chemistry, but I steered clear of physics and now I use it a lot.
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:30.880
So well, uh, I really appreciate you know both of you coming on and spending the time uh just to kind of talk about what you've been up to and how you got started and just sharing the stories.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:40.639
Um I'm sure folks that are listening will find a lot of this intriguing, especially all the different work that you do, um, from dealing with you know humid residential homes to commercial to industrial.
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.559
So um it's fascinating.
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.159
And I'm I know we'll stay in touch um as you get into other stuff.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.880
Looking forward to some other crazy pictures from you, Michael.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:49.519
Okay.
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:58.400
Um you've got the most recent one, so whenever the next crazy one comes along, I'll definitely send it to you for more and leave.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:00.079
We really appreciate it.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:01.519
Absolutely.
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:03.440
We're always happy to work with you guys.
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:04.000
Yes.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.239
And we we do we lean on you a lot.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:13.840
We we're thankful for your relationships and for just being able to pick up the phone and call at any point today and say, hey, here's this idea.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.639
What do you think?
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.119
Or how would you approach this situation?
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.039
So yeah, it makes a difference in our in our business for sure.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.119
Yeah, I'm I'm glad we could be useful.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.719
Um, it's fun for me too.
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.000
You know, every everyone's like a like a new puzzle to try to figure out.
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:29.440
So Yep.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:30.000
Yep.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:31.199
Absolutely.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:35.599
Well, well, thank you both, and uh yeah, we'll catch you next time.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.560
But without testing, they're just guesting.
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:02.799
Yeah.
00:00:02.959 --> 00:00:03.120
Right?
00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:05.839
They were just I think it could be happening here.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.439
Let's put a big thing of open cell spray foam along this theme and that'll fix it.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:12.240
Yeah, just throwing different stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks.
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:13.839
And nothing stuck.
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:21.359
Welcome to the Flow Lab, the podcast where we dive deep into the science of building performance and HBAC innovation.
00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:26.879
Today we bring you another insightful episode into enhance your knowledge and expertise in the field.
00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:36.399
Joining us are your co-hosts, Ben Walker, co-CEO of RetroTech, and Stan Myers, a renowned building science specialist and retrotech trainer.
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Together, they bring a wealth of experience and knowledge to ensure our discussions are both informative and engaging.
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So sit back, relax, and get ready to enter the flow lab where we'll explore the world of building performance.
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Let's get started.
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Well, uh, Michael Greg, thanks for joining us.
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And uh for those of you watching or will be listening, um, I guess you'll see that we also have a new co-host with us uh for this episode, too.
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Uh, I'd like to introduce uh Lee Canigalley from our uh tech support team and our uh dev team too.
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So Lee is kind of the guy that's behind the scenes to make uh all of our software work these days.
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So uh, you know, no pressure on that at all.
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No pressure and uh yeah, that's that's our motto, right?
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No pressure.
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Except for when we need it for the blower door, right?
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Yeah, except for when it's but uh yeah, so Lee's gonna Lee's helping me uh co-host this week or uh for this episode.
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And uh we brought in uh Greg and Michael uh because I think for you know our companies that we work with across North America, they're the ones that probably do the widest variety of testing.
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Um they're not just doing home performance, uh they're also getting into some commercial work well, as well as the enclosure integrity side of things for the fire industry.
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Um and Michael, you called me a few days ago uh talking about testing what?
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That was that gas tracer technology.
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They wanted us they wanted us, they want us to test those prefabed blast proof buildings that are constructed out of metal, and they're brought and then they're brought in off-site.
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They're you know, between uh a thousand square feet and four hundred square feet, and they're blast proof, and so they want us to they want us to do a gas tracer test to find where the air leaks are because they replaced the HVAC dampers.
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So we're trying to convince them, and I guess we're still in a process of trying to convince them to let us come in and do an ASTM E779 blower door test and lure up the gas tracer.
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Yeah, in my experience, if they're asking for that, it's because they're just not aware of blower door testing.
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Um yeah, hopefully they'll they'll decide to go that route.
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But what what are the those blast uh proof rooms?
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What are they uh typically used in?
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Uh industrial settings where there's uh a risk of explosion or or some kind of volatile leak of some sort.
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A lot of the uh refineries, a lot of the chemical manufacturers here in the South Louisiana area all have to have shelters in place due to all the dangerous chemicals they play with.
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So uh they they they all have shelters in place, and several of them have since I guess the federal government said, hey, you're gonna have shelters in place for these employees.
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And through the last 15-20 years, they've rotated out the old brick and mortar and drywall and stick built SIPs and changed them over to these prefab metal buildings that are that can withstand a bomb blast and also can be made airtight.
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Wow.
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That's really interesting.
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So let's kind of I guess back up and start more at the beginning.
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Um Greg, you and Michael have been doing this for quite a while.
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What what got you started and into airtightness testing and and building performance?
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Um Thanks for having us.
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Um I had a house that was really um in bad shape, but my wife was in love with it.
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So uh she had to promise me that she would let me do whatever I had to do before we moved in.
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And that's how I started researching.
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You know, uh their utility bills were just outrageous that this is what she wanted.
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So then I came across Retrotech, across uh some people that could test it, and I was just so amazed that I said, Man, I'm gonna get into that.
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That is that I had such a great feeling.
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I'm I'm gonna give that to others.
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Yeah.
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That's kind of how I started, and just plowed through and learned it uh a little bit from you know Retrotech.
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I took all the classes and then uh ordered the different equipment and just started going for it.
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Yeah, I feel like that's how a lot of us learn the best is just dealing with it personally, right?
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You've got to that's I don't know if our house was that bad when we bought it, but it was we bought it a few years ago.
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It was built in 92 with absolutely nothing performance-wise in mind, and about 30 years of of bad advice and uh and and repairs that I've been seeing along the way as I've been working on it.
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But yeah, I've learned a ton just by working on my own place with my own problems.
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So now that's that's amazing.
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So so you started out uh doing this from the residential side.
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How did you get more into some of the commercial uh stuff that you're doing now?
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A couple of clients that we had done residential work uh contacted us because they there's quite a number of plants and different types of uh you know sensitive uh material location, manufacturers and stuff all along the Gulf Coast and the Mississippi River runs right through Baton Rouge.
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And that also is a good transport for a lot of companies, and so they're all down here in South Louisiana and start going for it.
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Yeah, Michael, if you want to just kind of give us a rundown of what enclosure integrity is and just how that ties into the fire industry and how a blorador is involved with that.
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So any of any of these buildings that have the fire suppression system that uses anything but water, so any type of gas or or fire suppressant, we come in uh and basically just like we're doing in Fantastic, and we measure the room, we get the the dimensions, and then we use the blower door to see how long the agent will actually hold in the air because the agent has to hold for 10 minutes minimum for it to be a good test.
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And uh like Greg said, all up and down the Mississippi River and all along the Gulf Coast, there's so many different chemical companies and refineries that they've all got these fire suppression systems in them.
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So now it's a matter of, hey, when was the last time they were tested?
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Or they've never been tested.
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Well, how do you know if it trips, it's gonna put the fire out?
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Well, we don't.
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So let us come in and test it.
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Or a lot of times we'll partner with a fire suppression company like a Valin or a Pi Barker or somebody that's that's got their foot in the door and they say, Well, we're gonna install the system, but we want a third party to come in and test and verify that it's gonna do what we said it's gonna do.
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And so we just pick our way around to whoever needs us and offer our services and away we go.
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Yeah, that's that's uh that's really cool.
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So basically it's you're you're testing the room uh to make sure that whatever's in there will be protected, you know, from whatever you know, whatever chemical is going to be used.
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And let's say if it's a server room or something, that gas that's used uh to protect it has to retain at a certain height for a certain amount of time.
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Correct.
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Yeah, yeah, and it also has to stay at that certain height and it has to be a certain concentration for that 10-minute time period.
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And if all of that happens correctly, then it's supposed to extinguish the fire.
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And in some of these server rooms, we were in one several years ago.
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The the server room was a hundred million dollars.
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Wow, and they and they were squawking at us about the price of our test.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, you've got a hundred million dollar room full of equipment, but you want to nickel and dime us over the cost of this test that's gonna tell you whether or not the the room will actually be extinguished if the fire alarm is tripped.
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Yeah, it seems a little too important to to nickel and dime on for sure.
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Yes.
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So you guys are located in in South Louisiana.
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Um in the work that you're doing now, about how much of it is is commercial versus residential, or is it like an even spread, or does it change?
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It's very fluid.
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Um I just got done doing a lot of residential, code compliance, residential stuff, and then we're probably next week gonna be thrown right back into the refinery, and it's gonna be room integrity again.
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Uh and so we're gonna be air sealing a blast proof control room and then testing and verifying that it's gonna hold for X amount of minutes and stuff like that.
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But it I would probably say 70, 30, 70 residential, 30, 30 industrial, commercial.
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Okay.
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But last year it might have been 60 commercial and 40 residential.
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So it's very fluid.
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Yeah, it's just who who needs us the most and who's willing to pay and and and actually write the check and let's go.
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A lot of people want us to say, we can come in and do this, this, and this, and they're like, great, and we're two years out, and there's, hey, are you ready to come do this?
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Yeah, we were ready two years ago, but yeah, we're just now getting the PO.
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So you know.
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Yeah, that's something about you guys too, is that you're not just testing, you're actually doing the air sealing uh as well.
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So um, was that always the plan?
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Uh, or did it just become uh a need that needed to be filled that you were willing to offer?
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Or uh how did you get into that too?
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Well, once we started testing, they were like failing and they were looking at us going, what do we do?
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And so we started I started uh investigating it and realizing that that was probably the bigger part of the opportunity was that if somebody did fail, they would not know how to repair it or bring it up to code.
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And that's when we uh I started doing the uh air sealing.
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Yeah, that makes sense to be uh you know just kind of the one-stop shop.
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It's like, okay, yeah, here's here's the test.
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Okay, if it fails, we can tell you why and we can fix it.
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I mean, it it makes sense.
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We see a lot of that too.
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We see some weatherization companies that are, you know, doing a lot of that.
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Um we see some HVAC companies that are kind of starting to get into that too.
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But I'm uh I'm assuming in the commercial work that you do, it might be a little bit different.
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Like, for example, if you're if you're testing, you know, a blast-proof room or something like that, like what are you gonna use to seal that if it doesn't uh if it doesn't pass?
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Well, we uh you know initially investigate what the uh pressure might be, but most of the time just air sealing, you know, spray foam and uh some tape.
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Fire fire related, fire-related materials on any of the NFPA stuff.
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You've got to have all fire related, and that's where the expense comes from.
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One one tube of a certain sealant is$120 plus tax.
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So if you use 50 of those in a room, you've built up some pretty sizable uh bills, some extra costs there.
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We've had several that uh repurposed their their room because they didn't like how much it was gonna cost to bring it up to speed.
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Yeah, that's I mean that's part of it, right?
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I mean, if it's gonna work, it's gotta be tight, and you know, that doesn't happen for free.
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So well, and and above the ceiling, sometimes it's another 15-20 feet.
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We have to get scaffolding in and the cost just starts really ramping up.
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Yeah, I can imagine so.
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Uh especially those spaces get pretty large.
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Of the enclosures that you all test, how often do you run into that situation where like things just aren't going to work out and the client ends up just going a different route versus trying to seal it and get a pass?
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Not very many.
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I mean, there's been a few times where they said, yeah, we just won't use this for a shelter in place, or we won't we won't store this vital equipment in here maybe three or four times out of all the stuff.
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And I've been with Greg five years, so uh that's not it doesn't happen very often because the fact that they've already got so much time and money invested into these rooms and the equipment is so vital to the production of the facility that it's it's worth it for them to either try to hire a crew and come in and do it or pay us to do it.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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I'm sure if they uh if they can't use that room as they were planning to, that probably throws a big wrench into things as well.
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So Right.
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If you've got uh you know ten million dollars worth of servers in a room, you're not just gonna up and move the server room.
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Exactly.
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You've got to figure it out.
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So when you're doing the uh when you're doing the fire test, the enclosure integrity test, is it usually for server rooms um that you're seeing down where you are?
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It could be there it could be for anything, but a lot of it is the server rooms, but any room that's protected by by fire protection equipment, really, so it doesn't matter what's in the room, it's just is there a fire suppression system in here other than water?
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Yes, okay, then it needs to be tested and and we need to verify.
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It's more um is the facility protected by an agent, regardless of what it's you know, protecting, whether it's uh compute primarily computers, but also all other sorts of uh equipment.
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So back when you guys, when you started out, you know, you were doing you you went from residential to going into more of this commercial work.
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What was the learning curve like going from just doing like residential blower door testing, getting into something like this?
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I mean, how how how was the work different?
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What else is there uh what is what else is there extra to learn about it?
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Opening every conduit.
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You don't uh taking every plate off the wall, whether it's a switch plate or an outlet cover and completely air sealing that.
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You don't typically do that in every house you go into.
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Yeah.
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Um anywhere there's a penetration of any kind through the through the envelope, you've got to trace it down and figure out, hey, can it leak into the building or can it leak around the penetration?
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And it's just it's tedious.
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The materials all have to be fire rated and they're super expensive, and you just gotta go uh you know foot by foot, completely the all four walls and ceiling and the floors and figure it out.
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Yeah.
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A lot of the rooms that we have have a subfloor, and that brings another level of uh complication.
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You pull up the floor tile and you look, oh, there's 10,000 cables that go in through 10,000 holes.
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So here we go.
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We gotta seal them.
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Yeah, so that space below is actually gonna be part of the enclosure that you're testing, right?
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So you have to take that into consideration too and see where it leads and connects to.
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So yeah, that's a big thing down here back in the they built these a lot of these in the 50s and 60s out of solid concrete block.
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But then, okay, well, we need to run wires.
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Well, let's get a roto hammer and drill through the bricks, and we'll just run our cable through there, and everything will be great.
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Under out of sight, out of mine, under the floor, it's all good, right?
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No, it doesn't work like that.
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We've got to we've got to wall that off now and figure out how we can get enough material in between all of those cables to make it airtight or at least tight enough that it will hold for the specified hold time.
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And there's a software component that's that's involved with this too, um, that may not always be involved with residential.
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Correct.
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Yeah, we we just faced that with one of our clients that we're dealing with now, is they had 2% concentration and they've had it since the 80s, and they assumed that that was enough to extinguish the fire.
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I'm like, dude, we can't even go forward with the test.
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We have to stop right here because there's not enough agent in these canisters to even complete the test.
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We can't we can't move forward.
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We have to stop and be done until you verify there's enough agent to get to the 7% concentration based on the volume of the room.
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That just happened in December with one of our clients here in Baton Rouge that we're dealing with.
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And so they're going back and talking to the designer of the system, and they're trying to but yeah, the sit the the software, you know, the NFPA software that you guys make says it has to be 7% or higher for this particular concentration of this agent, and they had two.
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And I thought I was the crazy one, and it turns out no, I talked to Lee, I talked to people, and they're like, Well, you can't go forward with the test.
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There's nothing to test, there's not enough agent, there's not enough concentration.
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Wow.
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So so that maybe wasn't so much of a problem with the room itself, that was just the the system that was designed.
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And we don't know that we don't know how leaky the room is because we never got to that step.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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So and can you imagine, you know, you've got uh$70 million worth of stuff sitting in a room that you assume is protected for the last 30 years, and had there actually been a fire and you pushed a button, I doubt it would have extinguished anything.
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Yeah, that's scary.
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Mm-hmm.
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:21.359
So yeah, so with this, uh yeah, the software that's used is called uh Fantastic.
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Fantastic is what we use to do a lot of large commercial building tests.
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Fantastic integrity is a separate piece of software that's used specifically for this, the enclosure integrity uh for the fire uh side of the industry.
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Um, and that's something that our one of our founders, Colin Genge, came up with back in the 80s, um, where he figured out that, yeah, we could actually use blower doors to figure out problems in these types of rooms.
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And um and it's been adopted worldwide ever since.
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And um, I think it's really great that you guys have gotten into this because like I said, you guys are the only ones that I know of in the US that are doing this and home performance.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:02.640
Um, it's more common in in Europe and other parts of the world where they'll kind of do like both kinds of testing, but yeah, as far as I know, you guys are the only ones doing it.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:12.559
So across the wide variety of blower door tests that you guys have conducted, what would you say might be the most unique uh project that you've worked on?
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:14.319
Holy cow.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:21.359
I've since sorry, I threw that one at you.
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:35.839
Uh uh some pictures to you and Lee of you know the guy that aired that I went and tested his little uh 900 square foot house, and I told him you have to airseal where the where the floor meets the walls.
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And you remember he went out with a can of that cheap spray foam and he went around the actual piers that go up into the house where the piers and the dirt meet, and he put foam around every one of those piers to airseal that house, and then they put trash in the actual space where you should have put the insulation and the spray foam.
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You remember that?
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I think I've got a lot of things.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:11.839
Yeah, that one was just a few weeks ago, just a huge mountain of foam, probably four feet tall from the dirt all the way to the uh floor joist of the house.
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That one was yeah, and they were having cupping issues with their hardwood floors in their master area.
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And I'm like, yeah, I can't get under there to inspect it for you because you've literally built a mountain of foam so so large that I couldn't fit my body in there to get to get in there to look.
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So I've seen some strange things, and and usually when I see them, you guys see them.
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So I appreciate the photos.
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:41.200
The one where the man died?
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:43.759
Oh, I don't know how much we can talk.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:55.119
Well, we we were just called in to come down to a house in the New Orleans area where entergy is our one of our major energy suppliers, and they dug up a gas line in front of a house.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:55.759
Oh no.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:02.480
Left it open all night, and three people in the house asphyxiated, and there's lawyers involved.
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:31.200
So we had to go down there uh two weeks ago, and we used uh smoke bombs and a and a blower door fan to prove the theory that if gas was was emitting from this hole from this leak all night long, that it could, and we we used the smoke bombs, and they went when we turned the fan on and blew it toward the the venting under the uh crawl space of the house, the venting, which is right next to this hole where this gas line was leaking.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:46.640
And the the attorneys and the architect and the engineer went in and they videoed and it showed the smoke coming into the bedrooms and coming down the halls and going into the return of the HVAC system and being blown through the whole house.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.680
It was incredible.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.079
It's a terrible situation, but it was a super nervous.
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:57.839
Yeah, that's fascinating.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:08.000
But you know, we get into all All kinds of strange situations that you're normal just going in and doing code compliance blower door testing and duck leakage testing don't get into.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.400
So I would say so.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:18.880
And I think it's interesting too that uh you know when I asked you what's the most unique test of out of all the stuff you do, it both of them were residential.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:24.960
Um because when you get into existing homes, I mean it's especially for me, it's something new every time.
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.160
You don't know what's going to be behind the wall or under the house or in the attic.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.079
It's just uh it's yeah, let's see what happens.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:32.559
Yeah.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:40.880
So I mean, we've been in some situations in the commercial side and the industrial side, but it but usually those places are sort of buttoned up.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.480
They've sort of got their act together.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:47.599
They know, hey, there's somebody's life is on the line if this isn't somewhat correct.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:49.839
So they try a little harder.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:58.799
But we've seen some junk on the industrial side too that they called shelters in place, and you'd be better off standing in a field than you would be going into this room.
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:00.160
Oh wow.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:01.599
Yeah.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:02.160
Yeah.
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:08.799
Anybody out there that listens to the podcast and wants to get in touch with us, we'll we'll travel anywhere in the country and test and do this.
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:19.359
We've we've done all over the Gulf South, and we're we're willing to travel anywhere and share our expertise and show people how to do it or what have you.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:38.000
Yeah, so that's where um that's if you at if you were to take someone that's really just kind of has a residential background and wanted to maybe explore into this territory a little bit into getting into more of the commercial work, um, what would be some of your recommendations or or advice?
00:23:41.440 --> 00:24:07.920
Yeah, well, you're gonna need a lot of certifications, you're gonna need a what they call a Twit card, you're gonna need to do a lot of the site-specific training courses, the any of the OSHA certified eight-hour safety courses, and then the any particular industry that you're going into each has their own specific two to three hour test that you have to take just to come on site.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:13.359
So you've got to go through all of that testing and then uh mentioned your your apparel.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:20.240
Oh, you've got to have fire-rated m uh apparel from head to toe, hard hats, safety boots, the whole spiel.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:22.960
But um it can be done.
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:34.720
And uh all you've got to do is get to the right safety person or the the right engineer at any of these facilities and say, hey, when was the last time any of your shelters in place were tested?
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.680
When was the last time your rooms were tested for integrity if they have fire suppression?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.680
And away you go.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:46.319
You just, you know, you start the bid process and start taking measurements.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:48.640
Yeah, the liability is an issue also.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:49.440
Oh, yeah.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:57.200
You've got to have several million dollar blanket umbrella policies and and and insurances to cover you and your employees.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:02.640
And usually when we get a new client, they have a different requirement than our past clients.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.759
So we have to free up all over again.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:06.559
Right.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:15.519
Yeah, I'm sure every job site's probably different, you know, especially maybe if you're getting into federal property or something like that, where you have to have you know special training for that specific site.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:17.839
Um, I've I've had to go through that before.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.400
So yeah, commercial is a different beast.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:21.599
Um absolutely.
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.920
So yeah, I commend you guys for for tackling both because it's it's not easy.
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.160
And uh to be able to have that experience is uh on both sides is super valuable.
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:39.920
So I've found that uh with when you say commercial, I think of retail, striping office buildings, you know, those type of things.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:55.839
And they uh because of the way I don't know if it's everywhere, but in Louisiana, the owner of the building doesn't care because all the um tenants, you know, the utilities are the responsibility of the whoever's occupying the space.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.480
Right.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.240
So it's everybody's job becomes nobody's job, and they have these huge utility bills, but they're unwilling.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:18.400
You know, we can go in and we we've we've bid several jobs, but we don't get very many because they look at the price tag and they can't really justify on a three-year lease uh investing, which would be, you know, probably a lot more than uh Yeah, because they're not the ones that are actually saving the money on it.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:19.359
So no.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:20.480
Yeah.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:31.039
We had one situation that it was a cigar bar on the end of a strip mall, and the cigar smoke kept floating down to all the other inhabitants in the strip mall.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:37.920
And that was we were called in two or three different times on that same project, and uh we haven't been called in a while.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.880
Owner lived in Ohio that owned the strip mall, right?
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:53.359
And we're in South Louisiana, and and so the cigar bar on the end is the bad guy because its smoke is going down and infiltrating one, two, three, four other spaces in this strip mall.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.640
So we air sealed and air sealed and air sealed, and then okay, everything's great.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.519
And then a year later our phone ring, it's the same guy.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.480
Hey, guess what?
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:04.240
They're still getting cigar smoke.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.920
So we found out it was the fire break in between.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:21.440
There's a outside of the building, there's a you know, maybe a six four and a half by six, four and a half foot wide by maybe three and a half foot tall space that runs the whole length of the building.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:32.319
So they actually had to build a wall to stop the smoke from because it was coming out of the door up through the fire chase and going down through the front of the buildings and then infiltrating back in.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:33.359
So they wow.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.799
I actually, the last guy that called me, that's what I told him to do.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:52.319
Figure out a way to build a fireproof wall out of some cement board or something, something that's gonna not burn or burn slow enough that, and then so that's what they did, and then they used fire-rated materials and they actually closed that breeze way off.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:58.799
It's everything's above your above a finished ceiling, so they couldn't see any of it, but we haven't been called back since.
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.960
So I guess no news is good news.
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:04.240
Right, and that was the one headache of a commercial job.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:11.279
We like to classify all these other ones that we do as industrial because it's usually a plant setting of some sort.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:12.960
So yeah.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.319
But so with the cigar shop, the strip mall, how did you find that uh that air leakage pathway?
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.880
Just blow a door, just a blower door and did you use uh like fog or anything like that?
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.079
Or did you just were you able to feel uh a breeze through that area?
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:33.279
We could see, you could visually see a lot of it because you could see daylight going into the other shop.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:39.599
Oh wow of the where the walls met, you know, and then uh we used the tiny S smoke device.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:56.400
And uh and I think some of it too, which probably hasn't been resolved, is they needed to put backdraft dampers on the bathroom exhaust fans because they're just exhausting up above the drop ceiling, they're not exhausting out of the roof.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:57.200
Oh no.
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:07.039
And so you've got the restrooms for women's and men's for a bar, but there's also staff ref restrooms on the other side that that are right up against the next tenant.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:07.519
Okay.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:15.599
So they need to figure out a way to stop the smoke from going up into the fan and in just into the the space.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.720
Or vent those to the outside like they're supposed to be.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:19.519
Correct.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:20.400
They weren't.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:21.759
So yeah.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.359
But they this place had, I don't know, five or six what they call industrial smoke scrubbers that were in the actual lounge park.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:29.920
Yeah.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.440
None of that made a difference.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:33.119
Yeah, you know, I wouldn't think so at all.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:42.319
It was all just and you could see where this somebody had come in at some point and spray foamed all of this with their their their heavy-duty, you know, commercial spray.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:49.279
And then you can see where they've tried to tape this and that, and you know, but without testing, they're just guesting.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:49.680
Yep.
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:50.079
Right?
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.880
They were just yeah, I think it could be happening here.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:55.839
Let's put a big thing of closed cell spray foam.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.599
I think they used open cell, but either way, let's put a big thing of open cell spray foam along this seam and that'll fix it.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:06.160
Yeah, just throwing different stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks, and nothing's stuck.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.720
And so until we got in there, we put the blower door on it.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:16.960
Oh, yeah, well, here's a whole seam that runs the whole length of this wall that connects right next to the dress shop that's complaining about the smoke smell.
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.519
Let's uh let's seal this wall and see what happens.
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:20.000
Yeah.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:22.000
I had something similar.
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:40.880
I had a uh a hotel that I tested uh towards the end of last year uh that was having high humidity issues, and the the new owners just bought it, and uh they went through one summer and uh called me over the winter to come check it out, and they had their all of their bath fans just vented into the into the space above the attic that was spray foamed.
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:55.680
And then uh but we fogged it too and found that whoever did the spray foam job just went down the roof deck towards the soffit and then just foamed it to the loose fill fiberglass installation and stopped right there.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.160
Yeah, so it went around the foam, under the loose fill, and right where it wanted to go.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:00.799
Yeah.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.559
So holy cow.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.799
Yeah, existing buildings, you'll you'll find some some funky stuff for sure.
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.039
Yeah, but somebody paid a lot of money, probably several tens of thousands to do a whole hook.
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.039
Yeah, they did three buildings like that.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.400
So I would say that's probably 30 to 40k.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:17.920
Yeah, at least.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.000
And it didn't do anything because they didn't know what they were doing.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:22.799
Right?
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:23.359
Yeah.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:29.200
What other questions do you want to try to answer while we're yeah, we've we've covered a lot.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.200
Um, you know, we've we've talked about all different kinds of testing some different projects.
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:48.079
If you were to give any parting words to anyone that's coming into the building performance industry, whether if it's residential, commercial, or industrial, um, because the workforce for all of it is is you know, we can take whoever we can get that's willing to learn it.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:54.160
Um there's not a lot of companies um that are doing this kind of work, and we need it as many people as we can get.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:32:01.359
So um for newcomers that are coming into this kind of stuff, what um what would you advise?
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:03.200
Training.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.359
Training, training, training.
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:16.960
Learn as much as you can, nerd out, go deep, go down the rabbit hole, as far as you can go, and then a lot of it's just trial and error.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:25.839
Uh you know, if you don't know, ask somebody, call you guys, call retrotech, call Lee, call somebody and say, hey, here's what I'm looking at.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:27.839
What would you suggest?
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:40.079
But uh the main thing is get get trained, go through all of the classes you guys offer, take some from some of your competitors, BPI, anybody, but get trained.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:51.359
The more training you have, the better off because you you're likely gonna see something along the way in all of those training classes that you can use when you get up against a strange situation.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:52.319
Absolutely.
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:52.960
I agree.
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.599
Greg, you've been you've been doing this for for quite some time.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.359
Is there anything you wish you would have known before you got into any of this that you know now?
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:16.079
Uh well the uh it did change the I don't know what I would call it, the um the playing field changed uh once everybody had to do it.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:27.519
Uh you know, so that really complicated it for our business because that meant there was a greater need than we could meet by far.
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:36.720
I mean, very you know, and so people that were in the HVAC's business thought they could do this on the side and serve their clients that way.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:39.200
And this is more for the residential side, correct?
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:39.839
Correct.
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:43.759
Yeah, when it went in when the building code got got implemented in 2015.
00:33:44.160 --> 00:34:20.480
So that uh and we had and the only reason I mentioned is we had to come behind many uh apparently finished jobs that were still a problem, many of them after they'd already been moved in, and um, you know, they were having really serious humidity issues, and down here, uh, you know, there's a lot of moisture in the air, and then it gets trapped, and then it it starts the the biological growth syndrome kicks in, and it's complicated and dangerous.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:31.679
And uh we've seen the results of it, so we are firsthand look seeing that nasty mold or whatever it is, and what it does to people and to material.
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.679
So that's that's kind of I don't know if that answers your question or not, but that's that's what's on my mind.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:39.440
Yeah, no, I'm right there with you.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:47.840
Um, I'm in the southeast also, not as far south as you guys are, but um a humid climate is is tough to make a building behave in.
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.239
Um everything has to go right.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:55.920
So um I would say that's probably the in my area, at least probably yours too.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.880
It you usually the phone rings for existing buildings because of something humidity related.
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.079
Oh, 100%.
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:03.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.159
Yeah.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:13.039
That and and the builders think we're the bad guys and that the government's just out for more money, that all these tests are BS and there's no reason to do them.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.480
A house needs to breathe.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:16.880
All of the stories you've heard your whole life.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:27.199
I mean Michael get a good kick out of uh we find it's hard to get the information out of them because they're kicking it down, but they don't want to admit it because they're uncomfortable.
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:33.760
But if they told us they were uncomfortable, we could help them meet their goals, and so it's a kind of an endless loop.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.880
But so that's it.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.960
We kind of laugh at that when we encounter that.
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:37.280
It's funny.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.119
What do you leave your thermostat set at?
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:40.320
Oh, 75.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:56.480
And then you go in and the day you're testing, and you look at oh, this thermostat set at 64, and you're wondering why there's mold on the second story, but there's nothing happening on the first floor, it's all on the second floor, and you're like, wow, okay.
00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.400
So, yeah.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:04.480
You you get to meet a lot of different people and you get to see a lot of different things in this business, that's for sure.
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:05.199
Yeah.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:08.320
It's uh one physics lesson after another.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.639
Yes, and I really didn't do physics in college or high school.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:19.519
I went the other way in with chemistry, but I steered clear of physics and now I use it a lot.
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:30.880
So well, uh, I really appreciate you know both of you coming on and spending the time uh just to kind of talk about what you've been up to and how you got started and just sharing the stories.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:40.639
Um I'm sure folks that are listening will find a lot of this intriguing, especially all the different work that you do, um, from dealing with you know humid residential homes to commercial to industrial.
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.559
So um it's fascinating.
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.159
And I'm I know we'll stay in touch um as you get into other stuff.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.880
Looking forward to some other crazy pictures from you, Michael.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:49.519
Okay.
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:58.400
Um you've got the most recent one, so whenever the next crazy one comes along, I'll definitely send it to you for more and leave.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:00.079
We really appreciate it.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:01.519
Absolutely.
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:03.440
We're always happy to work with you guys.
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:04.000
Yes.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.239
And we we do we lean on you a lot.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:13.840
We we're thankful for your relationships and for just being able to pick up the phone and call at any point today and say, hey, here's this idea.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.639
What do you think?
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.119
Or how would you approach this situation?
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.039
So yeah, it makes a difference in our in our business for sure.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.119
Yeah, I'm I'm glad we could be useful.
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.719
Um, it's fun for me too.
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.000
You know, every everyone's like a like a new puzzle to try to figure out.
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:29.440
So Yep.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:30.000
Yep.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:31.199
Absolutely.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:35.599
Well, well, thank you both, and uh yeah, we'll catch you next time.
