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Welcome back.
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We are back.
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This is a rude awakening. I'm Spraina Jacobs. War all
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over this globe. We have, of course the Iran War,
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Irn War. We got the ongoing War and the gods
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strip Lebanon. Now we have the Sudan, we have Ukraine,
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smaller wars in the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, etc.
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Etc.
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So what is the cost of war on the environment.
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What is the cost of the echoside being waged on
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this planet? Here to talk about that is doctor Leslie
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Joseph and Doctor Leslie Joseph is an Associate Professor of
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civil Engineering at Liberty University. His expertise is in environmental engineering,
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environmental stewardship, and environmental justice and ethics, and he has
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published on the topics of war impacts on the environment.
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Doctor Leslie Joseph, Welcome to a rude awakening.
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Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here
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with you. All Right, So.
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This is uh, it's getting scarier and scarier. There's more
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wars that are happening. It's kind of an ebb and flow.
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I don't know as far as long as long as
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I've been on this planet of war just all over
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the world. So talk to us about uh, talk to
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us about the cost of war on the environment. Uh,
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namely the war that's happening in Iran around it, on
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what they're doing, what's being done to them. Uh, the
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straight of horror moves. Yeah, talk to us about about
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the cost.
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Yeah, no problem. So it's important to recognize that war
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in and of itself will cause environmental damage, environmental harm.
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It will cause environmental harm. I think what's interesting in
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these more recent conflicts and more recent wars is that
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we're seeing these environmental impacts really increase that level we
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haven't seen in the past, and we're seeing actors in
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these wars specifically target environmental infrastructure, aspects of people's environments
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that they rely on for their well being, and a
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continued attempt to really decimate the environments in these areas.
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And so if we're thinking, for instance, about the war
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in Iran, we can talk about how a lot of
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the air strikes and a lot of the bombardments have
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been occurring at oil and gas facilities, at places where
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Iran generates its wealthiness incommon it's revenues, and those industries
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are very polluting in of themselves. So when you actually
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attack them, you're releasing those toxic chemicals, those fumes into
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the air. You're seeing oil spills into the water onto
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the land, and you're seeing these chemicals really migrate across
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large parts of the country and contaminate the environments around them.
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And so as a result, there have been reports of
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acid rain coming down in Iran after some of these
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strikes have destroyed all depots, and that smoke went into
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the air and it rained back down on the people
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that lived there. There's been a lot of discussion about
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the water contamination in for instance, straight up hour, it
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moves in the Dead Sea in those areas where there's
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a lot of fighting taking place, a lot of artillery exchanges,
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there's land mines that around, placing in the strait to
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try to prevent traffic, and so it renders those parts
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of the strait and those parts of the water is
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unusable and essentially off limits to whoever's interested in either
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passing through or using that for their own purposes. And
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so we can see throughout these wars right these conflicts
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tremendous environmental damage, tremendous environmental impact, and tremendous harm to
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people who live in those areas where the environment's being
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so impacted, and so I think it's important to recognize
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that all of these impacts are a part of the
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cost of these wars and of these conflicts, and they
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should not be ignored when we discuss the true nature
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of what war brings to a country or to a people.
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M H.
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Most definitely, most definitely so. And there's actually an article
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that you wrote. I mean, it's almost a year old
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in the news Line magazine, but it's still very important
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right now at this moment. It was specifically about the
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war in Gaza, and you discuss how the impacts of
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what has happened there, the refugee camps, the contamination of water.
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But talk to us a little bit more about it.
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Let me just give the title of that article to
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everybody that is listening, the toxic blowback of Israel's bombs,
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how military action of gods is polluting the land, air,
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and water far beyond the enclaves bounce. So let's see
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from the twenty ninth of July twenty twenty five New
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Lines magazine. I'll have the link on the show description
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page four. A Rude Awakening at KPFA dot org. So
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doctor Leslie Joseph talked to us about let's drill down
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a little bit more.
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Yeah, let's keep talking about let's keep talking about it.
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So I think what's important to recognize in that particular conflict,
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and more broadly the war in general, and environmental pollution
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in general, is that it does not stay wherever you
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think the war's occurring. And so the thrust of that
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piece that I wrote for New Lines of magazine really
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highlight the fact that the environmental impacts of Israel's war
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on Gaza weren't going to stay in Gaza. It was
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going to impact Israel as well. The air pollution that
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they were seeing the air travels and people on the
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border of Israel and Gaza are seeing impacts of their
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air quality. They're seeing toxic chemicals and fumes migrating across
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the border into their country. We're looking at things like
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the pollution that's moving into the Mediterranean Sea from untreated
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sewage because the wastewater treatment plants in Gaza are destroyed
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or they are deprived of electricity to run and operate.
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That Mediterranean Sea is a water source for various countries
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along that coast, not just the Gaza strip. And so
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when that gets polluted, those impacts also affect other people
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beyond Godza itself. And when we think about the idea
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of generating all of this toxic waste and rubble and
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debris from the bombings and the destruction of homes and
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schools and hospitals and other medical facilities and other civilian
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infrastructure that's occurring during this war that's being waged, all
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of that waste has to go somewhere. Someone is going
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to have to remove that waste from the Gadza script
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in order to rebuild and to reconstitute that society. Where
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is that waste going, Who's going to remove it, Where's
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it going to be placed? Those kinds of impacts will
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undoubtedly affect more than just the people who live in Gaza.
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And so when I think about that war in particular,
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and the way that's being waged and the sheer levels
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of destruction that are taking place on this environment, that
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article really wants to highlight that those impacts will not
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remain in Gaza alone. And those impacts include, like I said,
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air pollution, water pollution, ground water pollution. The aquifers are
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being polluted as well, the land, the soil, the infrastructure
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has toxins in it. You know, a lot of the
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buildings are old. There's as best thos, there lead paint
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that gets dispersed and you know, pressed into the environment
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once those buildings are destroyed, particulate matter and dust. And
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when you think about the human costs, the human health impacts,
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those also don't stay there either, as people contract different
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infectious diseases, different water borne diseases from having a lack
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of clean water and sanitation service, a lack of medical
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care and facilities to get their injuries treated and their
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wounds treated, and their sicknesses. We have to remember, before
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the war, these hospitals were treating people who were sick,
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people who needed medical attention. You add to that the
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calamities that are coming from this war, and now you
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have a health care crisis that will not stay. The
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refugee camps, there's disease spreading throughout them. As people leave
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the Strip and try to find safe havens and safe passage,
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they're taking those illuss with them and looking for treatment.
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And so all of these impacts from the war will
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not remain in the gods of Strip, and all these
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impacts are becoming more and more common throughout the world
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as these wars are being waged, and so we have
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to really consider that and think about that, because even
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though we may believe that it's unfortunate that certain areas
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are being destroyed and the environment's being decimated in these ways,
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it will not remain in those particulars areas. It will
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spread and we will have to reckon with it in
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one way or another.
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Absolutely very well clad. Yeah, So talk to Joseph. And
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the second I know is it the second yeah, second paragraph,
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the second paragraph from your article in New Lines magazine.
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You lay it out again, the toxic blowback of Israel's
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bombs from the twenty ninth of July twenty twenty five.
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Dr Leslie, Joseph, you right, and might be a little
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bit redundant. We're just going to repeat it again here.
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Chemicals released or created by bombs that will increase chances
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of birth effects, cancer, respiratory problems, and heart disease are
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spreading through the air, water, and soil. Given the way
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these substances travel, their effects will be felt far beyond Godza.
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Just like you said, perchloriates will travel to Israel and
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the water supply, blocking the thyroids of citizens and leading
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to birth the facts and fertility issues untreated sewage. Just
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like you said, we'll spread through the Mediterranean, reaching countries
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along the coast, including Lebanon and Syria, poisoning drinking water supplies.
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Particulates in the air will be blown into Israel and Egypt,
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leading to increased respiratory illness and heart disease for anyone
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in their path. And the carbon released is in large
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enough quantities to measurably increase climate change, affecting every person
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on the planet. Wow. Absolutely devastating consequences we are heading for.
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It seems with all of these so called victories from
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one side or the other, they're not victories at all.
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Do you see the end of our planet coming sooner
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than later? Doctor Leslie Joseph.
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Well with What's interesting is when we think about the
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kind of global climate impacts of war, they often far
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exceed the types of industries that we think about when
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we think about air pollution and climate change and greenhouse
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gas emissions, and even when you think about the infrastructure
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that continues to produce the wars that we're seeing. All
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of that is damaging the environment, all of it. And
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so I do think that if we do not find
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more diplomatic, more political solutions, more approaches to dealing with
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conflicte that don't involve war, we will push ourselves further
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and further toward a reality where the world and the
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earth and the resources becomes scarce, the air becomes unbreathable,
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and we create an environment that is uninhabitable for those
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of us who rely on it, which is every single person.
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And so when we think about that, I do think
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that we have to be mindful of that reality, right,
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And for me, as someone who does a lot of
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environmental justice, I do like to center the more vulnerable
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populations and communities that get the brunt of that first,
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who don't have the resources to insulate themselves from those
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impacts directly. So, for instance, in these wars, there's a
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tremendous increase in greenhouse gas emissions. You know, there's an
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increase in pollution, there's a decrease in the availability of
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resources that we need to sustain ourselves. Right, the land
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gets polluted, their resources become scarce, or they're consolidated by
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the conquering you know, factions or the corporations who seize
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control of certain areas, And so what ends up happening
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is that there's less to go around, and there are
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few people in control of those resources, and so those
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of us who are vulnerable, those of us who are
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on the margins, it's not available. And so now we
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have issues. We have issues paying for our food because
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the prices are sky high. We have issues with fuel
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to be able to travel, go to work, visit family,
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do things that normal people do. We can't do that
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anymore because the resources are so scarce. We find ourselves
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having to come up with other technological advances to try
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to blunt the impacts that we are having on the
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climate and the environment, and it becomes this very toxic
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cycle that we just cannot get ourselves out of until
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we break the cycle, come out of it and think
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of other ways to deal with conflict. And that goes
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even beyond the direct engagement with other countries in terms
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of war. We have to also consider the ways in
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which the military industrial complex as a whole contributes to
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climate change and can contributes to the degradation of our environments.
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And so there have been numerous studies that talk about
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things like pfasts, the forever chemicals and heavy metals being
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in the soils and in the air around military bases,
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and there's a lot of discussion about how energy intensive
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these installations are in terms of consuming fuel for large vehicles,
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for operations and for maintenance, and so just the infrastructure
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itself that we maintain in order to be able to
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conduct war in and of itself is polluting and harmful,
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devastating to the environment, and so all of that has
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to be taken into consideration if we're serious about reducing
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the kind of impact we want to have on the
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environment as a whole. You know, we have you know,
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we talk a lot about fossil fuel industries, and we
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want to move to renewable energy. We want to do
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different things and have a just transition to different fuel sources.
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But what about this ongoing kind of militarism that we
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continue to fund and fuel and promote and project out
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into the world. What impact is that having on the environment?
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I would argue it's a very devastating one that we
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need to be mindful of and somehow combat.
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Exactly exactly, well said Well said well, and doctor Leslie Joseph,
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we have just run out of time. But this is
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the first of many CONVERSATIONSKS that was the voice of
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doctor Leslie Joseph, and he is an Associate professor of
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Civil Engineering at Liberty University and his expertise is in
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environmental engineering, environmental stewardship, and environmental justice and ethics. And
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he has published on this topic of war impacts on
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the environment. Doctor Leslie Joseph, thank you so much for
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being on a Rude Awakening. Truly appreciate you taking the time.
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Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I've thoroughly
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enjoyed our conversation.
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Welcome back.
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We are back.
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This is a rude awakening. I'm Spraina Jacobs. War all
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over this globe. We have, of course the Iran War,
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Irn War. We got the ongoing War and the gods
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strip Lebanon. Now we have the Sudan, we have Ukraine,
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smaller wars in the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, etc.
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Etc.
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So what is the cost of war on the environment.
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What is the cost of the echoside being waged on
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this planet? Here to talk about that is doctor Leslie
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Joseph and Doctor Leslie Joseph is an Associate Professor of
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civil Engineering at Liberty University. His expertise is in environmental engineering,
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environmental stewardship, and environmental justice and ethics, and he has
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published on the topics of war impacts on the environment.
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Doctor Leslie Joseph, Welcome to a rude awakening.
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Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here
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with you. All Right, So.
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This is uh, it's getting scarier and scarier. There's more
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wars that are happening. It's kind of an ebb and flow.
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I don't know as far as long as long as
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I've been on this planet of war just all over
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the world. So talk to us about uh, talk to
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us about the cost of war on the environment. Uh,
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namely the war that's happening in Iran around it, on
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what they're doing, what's being done to them. Uh, the
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straight of horror moves. Yeah, talk to us about about
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the cost.
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Yeah, no problem. So it's important to recognize that war
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in and of itself will cause environmental damage, environmental harm.
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It will cause environmental harm. I think what's interesting in
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these more recent conflicts and more recent wars is that
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we're seeing these environmental impacts really increase that level we
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haven't seen in the past, and we're seeing actors in
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these wars specifically target environmental infrastructure, aspects of people's environments
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that they rely on for their well being, and a
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continued attempt to really decimate the environments in these areas.
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And so if we're thinking, for instance, about the war
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in Iran, we can talk about how a lot of
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the air strikes and a lot of the bombardments have
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been occurring at oil and gas facilities, at places where
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Iran generates its wealthiness incommon it's revenues, and those industries
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are very polluting in of themselves. So when you actually
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attack them, you're releasing those toxic chemicals, those fumes into
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the air. You're seeing oil spills into the water onto
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the land, and you're seeing these chemicals really migrate across
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large parts of the country and contaminate the environments around them.
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And so as a result, there have been reports of
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acid rain coming down in Iran after some of these
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strikes have destroyed all depots, and that smoke went into
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the air and it rained back down on the people
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that lived there. There's been a lot of discussion about
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the water contamination in for instance, straight up hour, it
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moves in the Dead Sea in those areas where there's
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a lot of fighting taking place, a lot of artillery exchanges,
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there's land mines that around, placing in the strait to
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try to prevent traffic, and so it renders those parts
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of the strait and those parts of the water is
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unusable and essentially off limits to whoever's interested in either
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passing through or using that for their own purposes. And
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so we can see throughout these wars right these conflicts
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tremendous environmental damage, tremendous environmental impact, and tremendous harm to
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people who live in those areas where the environment's being
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so impacted, and so I think it's important to recognize
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that all of these impacts are a part of the
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cost of these wars and of these conflicts, and they
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should not be ignored when we discuss the true nature
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of what war brings to a country or to a people.
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M H.
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Most definitely, most definitely so. And there's actually an article
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that you wrote. I mean, it's almost a year old
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in the news Line magazine, but it's still very important
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right now at this moment. It was specifically about the
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war in Gaza, and you discuss how the impacts of
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what has happened there, the refugee camps, the contamination of water.
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But talk to us a little bit more about it.
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Let me just give the title of that article to
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everybody that is listening, the toxic blowback of Israel's bombs,
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how military action of gods is polluting the land, air,
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and water far beyond the enclaves bounce. So let's see
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from the twenty ninth of July twenty twenty five New
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Lines magazine. I'll have the link on the show description
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page four. A Rude Awakening at KPFA dot org. So
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doctor Leslie Joseph talked to us about let's drill down
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a little bit more.
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Yeah, let's keep talking about let's keep talking about it.
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So I think what's important to recognize in that particular conflict,
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and more broadly the war in general, and environmental pollution
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in general, is that it does not stay wherever you
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think the war's occurring. And so the thrust of that
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piece that I wrote for New Lines of magazine really
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highlight the fact that the environmental impacts of Israel's war
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on Gaza weren't going to stay in Gaza. It was
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going to impact Israel as well. The air pollution that
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they were seeing the air travels and people on the
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border of Israel and Gaza are seeing impacts of their
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air quality. They're seeing toxic chemicals and fumes migrating across
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the border into their country. We're looking at things like
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the pollution that's moving into the Mediterranean Sea from untreated
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sewage because the wastewater treatment plants in Gaza are destroyed
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or they are deprived of electricity to run and operate.
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That Mediterranean Sea is a water source for various countries
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along that coast, not just the Gaza strip. And so
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when that gets polluted, those impacts also affect other people
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beyond Godza itself. And when we think about the idea
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of generating all of this toxic waste and rubble and
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debris from the bombings and the destruction of homes and
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schools and hospitals and other medical facilities and other civilian
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infrastructure that's occurring during this war that's being waged, all
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of that waste has to go somewhere. Someone is going
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to have to remove that waste from the Gadza script
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in order to rebuild and to reconstitute that society. Where
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is that waste going, Who's going to remove it, Where's
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it going to be placed? Those kinds of impacts will
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undoubtedly affect more than just the people who live in Gaza.
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And so when I think about that war in particular,
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and the way that's being waged and the sheer levels
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of destruction that are taking place on this environment, that
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article really wants to highlight that those impacts will not
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remain in Gaza alone. And those impacts include, like I said,
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air pollution, water pollution, ground water pollution. The aquifers are
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being polluted as well, the land, the soil, the infrastructure
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has toxins in it. You know, a lot of the
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buildings are old. There's as best thos, there lead paint
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that gets dispersed and you know, pressed into the environment
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once those buildings are destroyed, particulate matter and dust. And
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when you think about the human costs, the human health impacts,
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those also don't stay there either, as people contract different
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infectious diseases, different water borne diseases from having a lack
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of clean water and sanitation service, a lack of medical
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care and facilities to get their injuries treated and their
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wounds treated, and their sicknesses. We have to remember, before
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the war, these hospitals were treating people who were sick,
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people who needed medical attention. You add to that the
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calamities that are coming from this war, and now you
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have a health care crisis that will not stay. The
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refugee camps, there's disease spreading throughout them. As people leave
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the Strip and try to find safe havens and safe passage,
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they're taking those illuss with them and looking for treatment.
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And so all of these impacts from the war will
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not remain in the gods of Strip, and all these
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impacts are becoming more and more common throughout the world
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as these wars are being waged, and so we have
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to really consider that and think about that, because even
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though we may believe that it's unfortunate that certain areas
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are being destroyed and the environment's being decimated in these ways,
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it will not remain in those particulars areas. It will
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spread and we will have to reckon with it in
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one way or another.
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Absolutely very well clad. Yeah, So talk to Joseph. And
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the second I know is it the second yeah, second paragraph,
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the second paragraph from your article in New Lines magazine.
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You lay it out again, the toxic blowback of Israel's
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bombs from the twenty ninth of July twenty twenty five.
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Dr Leslie, Joseph, you right, and might be a little
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bit redundant. We're just going to repeat it again here.
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Chemicals released or created by bombs that will increase chances
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of birth effects, cancer, respiratory problems, and heart disease are
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spreading through the air, water, and soil. Given the way
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these substances travel, their effects will be felt far beyond Godza.
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Just like you said, perchloriates will travel to Israel and
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the water supply, blocking the thyroids of citizens and leading
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to birth the facts and fertility issues untreated sewage. Just
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like you said, we'll spread through the Mediterranean, reaching countries
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along the coast, including Lebanon and Syria, poisoning drinking water supplies.
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Particulates in the air will be blown into Israel and Egypt,
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leading to increased respiratory illness and heart disease for anyone
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in their path. And the carbon released is in large
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enough quantities to measurably increase climate change, affecting every person
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on the planet. Wow. Absolutely devastating consequences we are heading for.
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It seems with all of these so called victories from
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one side or the other, they're not victories at all.
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Do you see the end of our planet coming sooner
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than later? Doctor Leslie Joseph.
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Well with What's interesting is when we think about the
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kind of global climate impacts of war, they often far
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exceed the types of industries that we think about when
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we think about air pollution and climate change and greenhouse
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gas emissions, and even when you think about the infrastructure
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that continues to produce the wars that we're seeing. All
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of that is damaging the environment, all of it. And
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so I do think that if we do not find
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more diplomatic, more political solutions, more approaches to dealing with
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conflicte that don't involve war, we will push ourselves further
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and further toward a reality where the world and the
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earth and the resources becomes scarce, the air becomes unbreathable,
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and we create an environment that is uninhabitable for those
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of us who rely on it, which is every single person.
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And so when we think about that, I do think
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that we have to be mindful of that reality, right,
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And for me, as someone who does a lot of
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environmental justice, I do like to center the more vulnerable
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populations and communities that get the brunt of that first,
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who don't have the resources to insulate themselves from those
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impacts directly. So, for instance, in these wars, there's a
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tremendous increase in greenhouse gas emissions. You know, there's an
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increase in pollution, there's a decrease in the availability of
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resources that we need to sustain ourselves. Right, the land
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gets polluted, their resources become scarce, or they're consolidated by
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the conquering you know, factions or the corporations who seize
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control of certain areas, And so what ends up happening
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is that there's less to go around, and there are
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few people in control of those resources, and so those
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of us who are vulnerable, those of us who are
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on the margins, it's not available. And so now we
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have issues. We have issues paying for our food because
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the prices are sky high. We have issues with fuel
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to be able to travel, go to work, visit family,
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do things that normal people do. We can't do that
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anymore because the resources are so scarce. We find ourselves
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having to come up with other technological advances to try
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to blunt the impacts that we are having on the
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climate and the environment, and it becomes this very toxic
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cycle that we just cannot get ourselves out of until
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we break the cycle, come out of it and think
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of other ways to deal with conflict. And that goes
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even beyond the direct engagement with other countries in terms
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of war. We have to also consider the ways in
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which the military industrial complex as a whole contributes to
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climate change and can contributes to the degradation of our environments.
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And so there have been numerous studies that talk about
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things like pfasts, the forever chemicals and heavy metals being
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in the soils and in the air around military bases,
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and there's a lot of discussion about how energy intensive
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these installations are in terms of consuming fuel for large vehicles,
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for operations and for maintenance, and so just the infrastructure
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itself that we maintain in order to be able to
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conduct war in and of itself is polluting and harmful,
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devastating to the environment, and so all of that has
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to be taken into consideration if we're serious about reducing
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the kind of impact we want to have on the
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environment as a whole. You know, we have you know,
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we talk a lot about fossil fuel industries, and we
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want to move to renewable energy. We want to do
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different things and have a just transition to different fuel sources.
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But what about this ongoing kind of militarism that we
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continue to fund and fuel and promote and project out
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into the world. What impact is that having on the environment?
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I would argue it's a very devastating one that we
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need to be mindful of and somehow combat.
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Exactly exactly, well said Well said well, and doctor Leslie Joseph,
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we have just run out of time. But this is
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the first of many CONVERSATIONSKS that was the voice of
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doctor Leslie Joseph, and he is an Associate professor of
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Civil Engineering at Liberty University and his expertise is in
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environmental engineering, environmental stewardship, and environmental justice and ethics. And
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he has published on this topic of war impacts on
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the environment. Doctor Leslie Joseph, thank you so much for
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being on a Rude Awakening. Truly appreciate you taking the time.
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Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I've thoroughly
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enjoyed our conversation.
