ELECTRONICS

WEBVTT
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.899
All right, let's bother these waiting brunchers
00:00:03.899 --> 00:00:12.240
What's something that you have in the back of
00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:14.380
your closet that you just like don't know what
00:00:14.380 --> 00:00:19.480
to do with like old electronics Yeah, yeah What
00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:21.559
is like the one thing that you have that's been
00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:23.079
sitting in like the back of your closet that
00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:24.719
you're like I know I got to get rid of this but
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:26.920
I don't know where to take it or what to do with
00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:32.439
it Think In the back of my car, well I have tons
00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:35.500
and tons of like old electronics and there are
00:00:35.500 --> 00:00:38.740
electronic e -waste. I don't have a car so it's
00:00:38.740 --> 00:00:41.100
I don't really have a way to take things like
00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:43.799
broken computer monitors, broken TVs, you know
00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:46.939
I can't haul a 65 inch TV down the street walking
00:00:46.939 --> 00:00:48.640
because I don't have a car and there's not really
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:50.619
a convenient way to get those things collected.
00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:55.100
It's like an old CRT TV for sure because that
00:00:55.100 --> 00:00:57.039
seems like something that I can't just toss out.
00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:58.460
It's a little too heavy. There's probably some
00:00:58.460 --> 00:01:01.799
like toxic something somewhere in there, so that
00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:04.099
is for sure one of those. And I just moved, so
00:01:04.099 --> 00:01:06.400
it's currently sitting in my living room, useless,
00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:09.000
and I don't know where to go. Oh yeah, what's
00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.060
something in your closet that you don't know
00:01:12.060 --> 00:01:16.859
what to do with? Definitely super old electronics.
00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:20.519
I don't know what to do with that. I don't really
00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:22.879
want to just stick it in our small trash bin.
00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:25.579
There's no way I could sell this on Facebook
00:01:25.579 --> 00:01:28.500
Marketplace. It just sits there and collects
00:01:28.500 --> 00:01:31.540
dust. It's like torn or blown up speakers and
00:01:31.540 --> 00:01:37.579
stuff like that. Think about your car for a second.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:40.379
No matter who you are, no matter where you live,
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.180
you expect to repair your car. Brakes wear out,
00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.480
tires go bald, alternators fail, sensors glitch,
00:01:47.659 --> 00:01:50.019
and when that happens, you don't throw the car
00:01:50.019 --> 00:01:53.010
away, you take it to the mechanic. There's an
00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:55.569
entire ecosystem built around keeping cars on
00:01:55.569 --> 00:01:58.370
the road. Trained mechanics, diagnostic tools,
00:01:58.769 --> 00:02:01.790
parts, suppliers, inspection systems, and a whole
00:02:01.790 --> 00:02:04.049
workforce dedicated to maintenance and repair.
00:02:04.530 --> 00:02:07.790
It's normal. It's expected. It's built into our
00:02:07.790 --> 00:02:12.449
culture. But now think about your phone, your
00:02:12.449 --> 00:02:15.990
laptop, your earbuds, the electronics you use
00:02:15.990 --> 00:02:18.990
every day. When something goes wrong with those,
00:02:19.310 --> 00:02:22.250
the story is completely different. They're sealed
00:02:22.250 --> 00:02:25.990
shut. Replacement parts are restricted or proprietary,
00:02:26.710 --> 00:02:29.810
warranties discourage third -party repair, and
00:02:29.810 --> 00:02:32.469
the cost of fixing them is often pushed so close
00:02:32.469 --> 00:02:35.129
to the cost of replacing them that you're nudged
00:02:35.129 --> 00:02:38.789
towards the trash can. Which is what most people
00:02:38.789 --> 00:02:41.969
do. They throw them out. Electronics are the
00:02:41.969 --> 00:02:44.580
fastest growing waste stream in the world. But
00:02:44.580 --> 00:02:47.340
thanks to years of advocacy, there are now laws
00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:49.699
about throwing out electronics, which contain
00:02:49.699 --> 00:02:52.120
metals and other valuable materials that just
00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.819
shouldn't end up in a landfill. As a result,
00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:57.219
pretty much everyone has that pile of random
00:02:57.219 --> 00:02:59.080
electronics that's sitting in their basement
00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:01.740
or closet because they know they can't throw
00:03:01.740 --> 00:03:04.819
them out, but what should they do with them?
00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:07.860
That's exactly what we're exploring in this episode.
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:12.599
Welcome to the Circle Up podcast, where we tell
00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:14.819
the stories of the circular economy in Philadelphia.
00:03:15.259 --> 00:03:19.860
Well, so let's circle up. Steve Figgett, the
00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:22.719
CEO of Sycamore International, runs one of the
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.180
most sophisticated electronics refurbishment
00:03:25.180 --> 00:03:27.879
and reverse logistics operations in the region.
00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.460
His team handles everything from devices that
00:03:31.460 --> 00:03:33.680
come from school districts and corporate campuses
00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.620
to municipal e -waste drop -offs, giving devices
00:03:36.620 --> 00:03:40.000
second, third, and even fourth lives. They even
00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.979
handle solar panels. Steve gives us some real
00:03:42.979 --> 00:03:45.659
talk about what it actually takes to collect,
00:03:45.939 --> 00:03:48.800
sort, repair, and recirculate electronics at
00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:52.139
scale, and why the current system makes it harder
00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:58.199
than it needs to be. My name is Steve Thiggett.
00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:00.740
I'm the founder and CEO of Sycamore International.
00:04:01.060 --> 00:04:04.419
We're coming up on 16 years ago in June, so we've
00:04:04.419 --> 00:04:07.280
been around a minute. My undergrad degree was
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.039
environmental science from Ithaca College up
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.020
in New York. But I was fortunate in that I was
00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:14.199
exposed to computers from when I was six. We
00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.339
always had a computer, played with DOS. My mom
00:04:17.339 --> 00:04:19.660
introduced us to that. She was an old programmer
00:04:19.660 --> 00:04:22.120
back in the day for Computer Sciences Corporation
00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:25.019
and did some cool work at NASA. And so I was
00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:28.079
privy to having computers around. And then I
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:29.939
just grew up tinkering with them and saw that
00:04:29.939 --> 00:04:32.180
there was value to this thing. And then inherently
00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:35.129
it could translate to a business. become a parent
00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:39.430
at some point. The concept was refurbishing electronics
00:04:39.430 --> 00:04:41.389
for reuse. That was the core business model.
00:04:41.610 --> 00:04:44.370
I'd been doing it kind of on the side in college
00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:48.949
as a way to make some ancillary income. So I
00:04:48.949 --> 00:04:51.129
started it basically on a pool table in my mom's
00:04:51.129 --> 00:04:53.589
basement. We put some plywood across it to not
00:04:53.589 --> 00:04:57.569
damage the felt so I didn't get in trouble. But
00:04:57.569 --> 00:05:00.649
yeah, it was basically that. It was initially
00:05:00.649 --> 00:05:04.660
consumers at the time, one by one. initial partner
00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:08.500
I had, and then we were focusing on kind of the
00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:11.379
refurb and some IT support at the time. But it
00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:14.819
seems that ultimately the scaling, there's more
00:05:14.819 --> 00:05:17.339
scalability to actually fixing the equipment
00:05:17.339 --> 00:05:20.120
up and doing it at scale as opposed to doing
00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.779
the IT side. And the sustainability portion of
00:05:22.779 --> 00:05:25.680
it, we didn't have the term circular economy
00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.800
coined at the time, we were calling it a sustainable
00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:32.779
business, which is what it is. But But there's
00:05:32.779 --> 00:05:35.040
a tangible business case to be made for this,
00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:37.819
like a for -profit, independent business case
00:05:37.819 --> 00:05:40.259
to be made for it. So it was one by one. And
00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:42.819
then we started focusing on schools. It was early
00:05:42.819 --> 00:05:44.620
days when one -to -one programs, what they were
00:05:44.620 --> 00:05:46.319
called at the time. So like where there's one
00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.160
laptop for every student. Now it's obviously
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.100
common, but we started seeing an influx of devices
00:05:51.100 --> 00:05:53.240
flowing into them and they didn't really know
00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.360
as much about like the data secured end of life,
00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:57.959
student data sitting there. So that was a value.
00:05:58.060 --> 00:06:00.060
Hey, we're going to destroy the data on this.
00:06:00.379 --> 00:06:03.319
but also it was a nice revenue stream back to
00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.519
them. So we started off by paying schools for
00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.199
their old electronics for anything that we could
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.360
refurbish and anything we couldn't be recycled
00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.399
responsibly. So we started pitching some school
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.360
districts on that and it had legs. We've infused
00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.300
millions of dollars now back into school budgets
00:06:20.300 --> 00:06:23.620
every year. From there we moved out of the basement
00:06:23.620 --> 00:06:27.660
to I brought on Angel Investment Capital, which
00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:31.060
we moved to a fancy garage and then then a mushroom
00:06:31.060 --> 00:06:34.399
house, and then eventually we scale up to warehouse,
00:06:34.699 --> 00:06:36.560
then eventually settle to where we are today,
00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:40.379
which is a much more dedicated facility in West
00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:48.759
Grove. But basically, we collect things. It's
00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.060
anything that plugs into a wall. It goes through
00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:53.459
a process where it's sorted on site. Data -bearing
00:06:53.459 --> 00:06:56.569
devices are brought out. and sorted out for testing
00:06:56.569 --> 00:06:59.629
and data destruction. Everything is evaluated
00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:02.970
for reuse, depending what the device is. And
00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.310
again, sometimes older devices like your iPod,
00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:08.649
that despite being 15 or 20 years old, actually
00:07:08.649 --> 00:07:11.029
might have some value if we can put a new battery
00:07:11.029 --> 00:07:12.870
in it or something. Everything is evaluated.
00:07:13.310 --> 00:07:15.209
So we go through a whole inventory process. And
00:07:15.209 --> 00:07:18.350
then anything that is true e -waste is sorted
00:07:18.350 --> 00:07:23.420
into a variety of categories. for recycling and
00:07:23.420 --> 00:07:25.819
anything that is able to be refurbished. We run
00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:28.759
through, we have about 18 processing technicians
00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:30.980
that are experts in this. We have software driving
00:07:30.980 --> 00:07:34.019
it, the decisions, QR codes that are scanned
00:07:34.019 --> 00:07:37.079
to help teach people how to route things. And
00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:40.040
ultimately those wind up in resale stream. So
00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.819
it might be 50 % online retail. There's domestic
00:07:43.819 --> 00:07:46.339
retailers. We have international distributors
00:07:46.339 --> 00:07:50.470
in Europe and in Southeast Asia. where they sell
00:07:50.470 --> 00:07:53.230
it back to consumers again. And ultimately, everything
00:07:53.230 --> 00:07:57.209
that is complete e -waste is routed into material
00:07:57.209 --> 00:07:58.670
streams where it's not going to be landfilled.
00:07:59.410 --> 00:08:01.449
In the Commonwealth, it's technically illegal
00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:04.509
to landfill electronics, like consumer electronics.
00:08:04.889 --> 00:08:07.949
So there's the legal side of it. But landfills
00:08:07.949 --> 00:08:09.730
aren't necessarily designed or equipped to handle
00:08:09.730 --> 00:08:11.949
all the heavy metals. There's concerns about
00:08:11.949 --> 00:08:14.990
lithium ion battery fires, which is a major concern
00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:19.430
for for commercial municipal waste collections.
00:08:19.889 --> 00:08:22.750
When you see those videos of a trash truck driving
00:08:22.750 --> 00:08:25.910
down Fifth Avenue in New York on fire, it's like,
00:08:26.110 --> 00:08:27.990
that's kind of disturbing. But there are thermal
00:08:27.990 --> 00:08:30.569
events that happen. There are real challenges
00:08:30.569 --> 00:08:36.309
to running trash compactors. It's also relatively
00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:39.190
refined metals. So if we can get them into the
00:08:39.190 --> 00:08:42.070
right material streams, it's far more efficient
00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:45.940
from an environmental... perspective to refine
00:08:45.940 --> 00:08:49.419
electronic waste streams than it is to mine virgin
00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:52.200
soil, mountaintop removals, straight up processing
00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.039
X number of tons of ore to collect, you know,
00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:58.179
refined metals. It's relatively refined. So I
00:08:58.179 --> 00:09:00.340
think the concept of urban mining is the one
00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:02.360
that's starting to be refloated around more recently.
00:09:02.740 --> 00:09:05.620
We're looking at the raw materials in urban settings
00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:08.730
and suburban settings and looking at them for
00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:11.389
mining really raw materials as feedstock into
00:09:11.389 --> 00:09:14.470
refining processes to distill things down into,
00:09:14.470 --> 00:09:16.809
you know, aluminum, copper, you know, really
00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:19.570
base metals again, lithium, you know, different
00:09:19.570 --> 00:09:22.490
polymers for plastics. I mean, repolymerizing
00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:25.169
plastics presents its own challenges, but it's
00:09:25.169 --> 00:09:30.710
better than dumping them in Malaysia. But one
00:09:30.710 --> 00:09:32.730
of the challenges is a lot of consumers don't
00:09:32.730 --> 00:09:36.639
really have easy access to where you can. recycle
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.399
conveniently. So everyone's got these drawers
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:42.100
full of electronics at your home, but you know
00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:43.679
there are also a bunch of old batteries in there
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.960
that might be expanding so it might not necessarily
00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.639
be the safest thing. So there's definitely a
00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.620
challenge. Our core focus is really on accumulating
00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:55.080
large volumes or establishing collection sites
00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.220
where we can accumulate things in bulk because
00:09:58.220 --> 00:10:00.879
it's more efficient to deploy track to sites
00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:02.799
where it's concentrated. So we handle the consumer
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:04.740
electronics program for the state of Delaware.
00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:08.210
We're working on some things in Pennsylvania.
00:10:08.669 --> 00:10:10.669
We're excited about some of the policy changes
00:10:10.669 --> 00:10:13.389
that might be coming through the Pennsylvania
00:10:13.389 --> 00:10:16.169
Senate and House and from the governor's desk
00:10:16.169 --> 00:10:18.309
at some point, too. But there's a market -driven
00:10:18.309 --> 00:10:20.450
approach to make this happen, though there could
00:10:20.450 --> 00:10:24.690
be some updates to some of our legislation and
00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:26.730
laws around it, I think, that could help boost
00:10:26.730 --> 00:10:30.250
it, too. We need more collection sites. There
00:10:30.250 --> 00:10:32.870
are other states that handle it a little bit
00:10:32.870 --> 00:10:34.409
differently than Pennsylvania that are more like
00:10:34.409 --> 00:10:38.340
a consumer -friendly collection events. It does
00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:40.659
matter. We do want to actually recycle these
00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:45.120
things. There's stats that are like only 15 percent
00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.360
of electronic waste is actually collected. There's
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.220
a huge amount that are sitting in people's desks
00:10:49.220 --> 00:10:52.960
and homes right now. They question mark what's
00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.100
actually out there. Typically, we're able to
00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:58.960
pay for assets. We have free consumer collections,
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:04.389
so consumers are not charged to do this. We make
00:11:04.389 --> 00:11:06.690
our profit. I mean, 80 % of our revenue is from
00:11:06.690 --> 00:11:10.149
the refurbishment and resale. About 10 % is from
00:11:10.149 --> 00:11:13.090
recycling, about 10 % services. So the bulk of
00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:17.769
it is true reuse and refurb. There's also a great
00:11:17.769 --> 00:11:19.789
opportunity just to make sure materials are captured
00:11:19.789 --> 00:11:23.210
from, you know, particularly critical minerals
00:11:23.210 --> 00:11:26.070
that are becoming more concerning from the state
00:11:26.070 --> 00:11:28.990
and the federal level, like lithium, for example.
00:11:29.769 --> 00:11:32.769
A lot of people think lithium might not be recyclable
00:11:32.769 --> 00:11:35.269
or is volatile, but you can recycle lithium 20
00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:38.230
times before it's completely depleted. And if
00:11:38.230 --> 00:11:41.950
a battery lasts 10 years, that's a long time.
00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:49.110
There's exciting opportunities in Pennsylvania.
00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:53.090
There's bipartisan interest in protecting data
00:11:53.090 --> 00:11:56.370
that's on devices and consumer devices, making
00:11:56.370 --> 00:11:57.990
sure everyone doesn't have their drawers full
00:11:57.990 --> 00:12:00.600
of all of these electronics that just sit there
00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:03.679
for years and years and years. So the existing
00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.259
legislation doesn't cover some of those devices.
00:12:06.700 --> 00:12:09.179
So there used to be something expanded to cover
00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:13.139
more modern electronics. And then there are some
00:12:13.139 --> 00:12:14.480
things that were kind of missed, I think, in
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:19.120
the original bill that passed back in 2010. But
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:20.480
technology has changed that. There was a lot
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.679
of CRTs. That was the binge focus of the program.
00:12:22.899 --> 00:12:25.639
You're not allowed to throw CRT TVs legally into
00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.350
the landfills. Cathode ray tube is what it stands
00:12:28.350 --> 00:12:31.309
for. So the old big boxy TVs people had those
00:12:31.309 --> 00:12:35.090
giant ones that are weighed 150 pounds. So that
00:12:35.090 --> 00:12:37.570
was the major issue because that is leaded glass.
00:12:37.690 --> 00:12:39.809
So you can't just crush it up. And then there's
00:12:39.809 --> 00:12:43.409
also mercury gas in it. So if you pop it, it's
00:12:43.470 --> 00:12:45.590
it explodes and that's just bad to get into the
00:12:45.590 --> 00:12:48.029
atmosphere. But an interesting thing, and I don't
00:12:48.029 --> 00:12:51.730
mean to completely segue, but some of the CRT
00:12:51.730 --> 00:12:54.409
processors and ultimate downstreams for them
00:12:54.409 --> 00:12:57.129
are going to be the ones, some of the facilities
00:12:57.129 --> 00:12:59.509
are converting processes to handle solar panel
00:12:59.509 --> 00:13:02.490
glass. So it's like kind of an interesting, I
00:13:02.490 --> 00:13:05.090
mean, it's still early for solar panel recycling.
00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:08.070
I think it's very early days, but some of those
00:13:08.070 --> 00:13:10.450
facilities will ultimately be the one full process.
00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:15.070
some of the PV glass. So each solar panel has
00:13:15.070 --> 00:13:18.370
trace elements of silver. It has copper in the
00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:20.590
junction box. There's plastics, there's different
00:13:20.590 --> 00:13:24.409
polymers. The glass is typically kind of a heavy
00:13:24.409 --> 00:13:29.129
irony glass, so there's iron in it. But the hardest
00:13:29.129 --> 00:13:31.330
part of separating them is that it's all kind
00:13:31.330 --> 00:13:33.870
of glued together. So you have to dig through
00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:36.659
the front of the panel. It could be kind of a
00:13:36.659 --> 00:13:39.720
nasty process depending how the structure and
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.620
how the panel was built. There's not a single
00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:44.740
standard. So like there's different thicknesses
00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:47.440
and gauges of glass from each manufacturer it
00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.200
changes. So even if you're going to try to set
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.120
up a shearer to shear off the glass off the top,
00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:53.039
you're constantly going to be calibrating it.
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.480
If every panel is different, it would be really
00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:57.940
great to have a standard. I guess I know there's
00:13:57.940 --> 00:14:00.200
been talk about it and some of the bifacial panels
00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.419
that are more contemporary are more recyclable.
00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.100
They don't really think about recyclability when
00:14:06.100 --> 00:14:09.779
they made these things. It's still early for
00:14:09.779 --> 00:14:12.500
solar panel recycling. I think it's very early
00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:17.720
days, but a lot of the warranties are for 20
00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.980
years plus. I mean, I think the original solar
00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:23.419
panels that have been produced are still producing
00:14:23.419 --> 00:14:27.820
voltage. We kind of look at it the same way that
00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:31.360
we look at testing batteries. So if when we're
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.950
testing a solar panel, and it's still producing
00:14:33.950 --> 00:14:37.009
80 % of the rated power of the nameplate on the
00:14:37.009 --> 00:14:39.690
back of the panel, it still will be considered
00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:43.009
usable. One of the reasons we see people doing
00:14:43.009 --> 00:14:47.250
solar panel recycling now is that the price of
00:14:47.250 --> 00:14:50.809
a solar panel has come down anywhere from 4 to
00:14:50.809 --> 00:14:55.149
6x over the last 15 years, but they might be
00:14:55.149 --> 00:14:57.509
twice as efficient by the same surface area.
00:14:57.950 --> 00:15:00.409
So if the two -dimensional plane is twice as
00:15:00.409 --> 00:15:03.070
efficient and it's you know, five times cheaper,
00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:06.830
it makes sense to free upgraded panels just because
00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:08.789
you can put, you know, brand new ones on there.
00:15:10.970 --> 00:15:14.029
It's to be seen what will happen where the market
00:15:14.029 --> 00:15:17.029
goes once this one big beautiful bill kind of
00:15:17.029 --> 00:15:19.289
plays through, and we're just observing it. I'm
00:15:19.289 --> 00:15:22.090
not really sure yet, but there's still a very
00:15:22.090 --> 00:15:24.490
compelling case of putting up solar. It pays
00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:26.610
for itself. There's people who say end of life,
00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:29.129
it consumes more energy to recycle it than it
00:15:29.129 --> 00:15:31.129
actually produced in its whole life. That is
00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:34.139
that is false. There's people that say it costs
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:36.919
more energy to actually make than it, you know,
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.340
than it will ever produce. And regardless of
00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:41.799
the recycling, that's all wrong. This information
00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:43.200
is something that we're always going to be fighting
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.500
in this industry. And definitely when it comes
00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:47.940
to solar panel recycling, there is inherent value.
00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:50.879
There's a robust secondary market for tested
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.519
panels that are truly tested. So we can certify
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:55.279
that it works and we stand behind it with our
00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:02.460
customers. We're completely solar powered. We're
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:04.340
wiping hundreds to thousands of hard drives.
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.019
So when the power goes out, we lose all of those
00:16:08.019 --> 00:16:10.120
hard drives being wiped. So we have to start
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:11.620
the entire process again. That's a whole day
00:16:11.620 --> 00:16:14.220
of production because we have to ensure that
00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:16.399
data is destroyed. It's like the most, the largest
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.139
liability we maintain is the data, well, cybersecurity
00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:25.440
coverage for our company. The power does go out
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.620
here five to seven times a year. That was really
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:30.860
expensive to lose a day of production. We just
00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:33.740
need to have reliable power all the time. I didn't
00:16:33.740 --> 00:16:36.700
want to have a generator as a backup to run off
00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:38.539
of, okay, why don't we just put a giant battery
00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:41.779
for the whole facility, but couple it with on
00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:46.620
-site solar generation. I like being completely
00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:50.100
net zero as far as energy use goes. And we're
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.940
net zero waste. We're not landfilling things
00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:55.100
that come through the facility for processing.
00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:58.559
there's kind of a it's a cool business case we're
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.820
a for -profit business we're not doing this out
00:17:00.820 --> 00:17:03.320
of grants but it's this is just makes sense from
00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.539
a circular economy perspective when you think
00:17:05.539 --> 00:17:07.519
about like you know all cycles carbon cycles
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.319
water cycles it's like everything should be really
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.940
a truly closed loop for better or worse just
00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:16.640
because the industry is growing there's good
00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.839
and bad operators in it So I think it'd be good
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.160
for consumers to become more educated, which
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.099
is in the industry. We need to do a better job
00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:27.359
of this to innate like providing tools so consumers
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.799
know where they can drop it safely. Because just
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:31.740
because someone says they're electronics recycling
00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:34.240
doesn't mean they're doing it the right way.
00:17:34.539 --> 00:17:37.880
Again, like there's electronics recyclers that
00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:42.559
that operate. I know of one in New Jersey that
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:44.700
basically stuff things into shipping containers
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:48.650
and they ship it to the developing world to be
00:17:48.650 --> 00:17:51.569
processed in ways that aren't certified the way
00:17:51.569 --> 00:17:54.670
we do it. The certified facilities that are R2V3
00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:57.630
certified or East Stewart certified in the US.
00:17:58.170 --> 00:18:00.609
It doesn't matter how you do it. It's better
00:18:00.609 --> 00:18:05.130
to not burn wires to collect the copper. Let's
00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:06.750
not pour gasoline on them and just light them
00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:09.369
on fire. There's ways to do it. An industrial
00:18:09.369 --> 00:18:11.049
process that's efficient and environmentally
00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:14.109
friendly and we don't need to externalize our
00:18:14.109 --> 00:18:17.750
environmental costs for to run a profitable business
00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:19.930
in any way but particularly in this industry
00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:22.890
it's like you can do it the right way and the
00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:26.829
right way is with having consumers or large companies
00:18:26.829 --> 00:18:29.609
or school systems know that hey if these guys
00:18:29.609 --> 00:18:32.269
are too certified if they're e -stuart certified
00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:35.490
there's a lot of due diligence that went into
00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:38.549
that to make sure that they care where the materials
00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:44.349
go and how they operate. The idea is to really
00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:47.279
embrace the circular economy. and circular materials
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:54.559
and like think about how we're doing it. We think
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.160
when the legislation gets updated in Pennsylvania,
00:18:57.579 --> 00:18:59.180
there will be more collection sites and there's
00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:00.779
going to be more opportunities for us to service
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.039
those in Philly. There's going to be opportunities
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.619
for companies that are in the city right now
00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:06.799
like one of the most costly portions of this
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.700
industry are the logistics. You're running these
00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:11.970
big trucks through It's hard to collect three
00:19:11.970 --> 00:19:13.750
iPhones from a consumer. You want to collect
00:19:13.750 --> 00:19:16.589
a few hundred or a few thousand at a time or,
00:19:16.589 --> 00:19:19.430
you know, a few thousand pounds. So there's going
00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:21.309
to be an opportunity for smaller companies to
00:19:21.309 --> 00:19:23.950
start up and fill that gap, I think. Emptying
00:19:23.950 --> 00:19:28.029
out your drawers is a good thing. But releasing
00:19:28.029 --> 00:19:30.250
the devices prior to doing that would be a big
00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:34.009
help so they can be reused again. The big thing
00:19:34.009 --> 00:19:37.589
that helps is if your device, if you can, you
00:19:37.589 --> 00:19:39.950
know, people have iCloud locks or different like
00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:43.180
You know, Samsung and Google devices have different
00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:45.799
software locks in the devices. If you can wipe
00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:47.859
it before you give it the thing away and release
00:19:47.859 --> 00:19:49.779
it from that, that will make sure that it can
00:19:49.779 --> 00:19:52.359
be reused again. If it's, if it's software locked.
00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:56.319
So, you know, find my iPhone or, you know, one
00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.279
of those activation locks we call them. If it's
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:00.940
still in there, you can't use it again. You can
00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:03.319
harvest some parts off of it, but you can't actually
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:05.380
reuse the device again and sell it to someone
00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:11.789
else. What are some things that could make e
00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:14.670
-recycling easier? Honestly, I think if there's
00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:18.809
more standardization for just for standards on
00:20:18.809 --> 00:20:21.769
how batteries are put into devices to make them
00:20:21.769 --> 00:20:24.309
removable would go a really, really long way.
00:20:24.329 --> 00:20:26.710
If you're gluing batteries into something, you
00:20:26.710 --> 00:20:29.450
have to unglue them at the end of it. It's so
00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:33.549
tedious. So if there's more standardization into
00:20:33.549 --> 00:20:35.549
that, I mean, I think, honestly, it's a good
00:20:35.549 --> 00:20:38.440
idea to have all of the same power cables. We
00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.140
have so many different types of adapters. I mean,
00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:44.279
it was just out there. We've got to have 20 ,000
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.500
pounds of adapters and just boxes and boxes of
00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:50.480
these things that are all different form factors.
00:20:50.900 --> 00:20:53.400
Standardizing to USB -C ports is a good idea
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.299
for power. And I think that could also apply
00:20:57.299 --> 00:21:00.059
to batteries, how you install them in devices.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.079
Again, it'd be better to stop gluing things together,
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.299
making things removable in a way. This would
00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:15.539
be really helpful. iFixit, they're a great organization.
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.579
They do teardowns of a lot of tech and great
00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:21.660
things from easy to hard as far as recyclability
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.700
goes and repairability goes. Yeah, so I think
00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:28.720
there's talk that way. I mean, the newer iPhones
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.380
are easier to repair because Apple did eventually
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:35.779
listen. But I think there's a lot of manufacturers
00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:38.259
that aren't doing it that way. when the major
00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:41.039
ones start paying attention to that way and making
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.059
batteries replaceable in particular is a big
00:21:45.059 --> 00:22:05.480
step. That was Steve Figgett at Sycamore International,
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:07.900
where they specialize in sustainable electronics
00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:10.759
recycling. If you want to learn more about electronics
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.240
and solar panel recycling, go to sycamoreinternational
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.839
.com. We heard from Steve about what would make
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.779
electronics repair, refurbishment, and recycling
00:22:20.779 --> 00:22:26.180
easier. And the list isn't complicated. Yeah,
00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:29.319
devices need to be built to open, not glued shut.
00:22:30.009 --> 00:22:32.569
Parts and tools need to be available, not locked
00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:36.069
behind manufacturer contracts. Software shouldn't
00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:38.650
block independent technicians. And consumers
00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:40.990
shouldn't be pushed for buying a new device every
00:22:40.990 --> 00:22:44.150
time a battery swells or a screen cracks. And
00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:47.109
those aren't technical impossibilities. They're
00:22:47.109 --> 00:22:49.769
policy choices. And that's exactly where the
00:22:49.769 --> 00:22:52.430
right to repair movement comes in. And it's the
00:22:52.430 --> 00:22:56.670
world a circular economy depends on. Right to
00:22:56.670 --> 00:22:58.789
Repair is about restoring something most people
00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.509
assume they already had, the ability to fix the
00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.509
things they own. It asks one simple question.
00:23:04.890 --> 00:23:07.410
If you bought it, shouldn't you be able to repair
00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:10.910
it? Luckily, we know someone that can break down
00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:13.410
just that question, Aaron Perzanowski at the
00:23:13.410 --> 00:23:16.029
University of Michigan. He literally wrote the
00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:18.430
book on the right to repair. Aaron is one of
00:23:18.430 --> 00:23:20.569
the country's leading scholars on the right to
00:23:20.569 --> 00:23:22.549
repair, and he's going to take us through how
00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:28.720
we got here. My name is Aaron Perzanowski and
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:30.859
I'm a professor of law at the University of Michigan
00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.819
Law School. The book I wrote a few years ago
00:23:34.819 --> 00:23:37.160
is called The Right to Repair Reclaiming the
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.859
Things We Own. This was a project that started
00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:45.819
for me sort of during the pandemic when I was
00:23:45.819 --> 00:23:48.799
teaching remotely and spending a lot of time
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:53.180
alone at home and it was a great chance to write
00:23:53.180 --> 00:23:55.759
a book in a relatively short period of time.
00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.839
And it's trying to give an accessible viewpoint
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.660
into this complicated issue. So it's not written
00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:12.160
for people who are legal experts. It's not written
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:16.420
for people who are repair experts. My goal is
00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:19.099
to kind of guide people through this constellation
00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:22.920
of issues by understanding kind of the historical
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:25.839
perspective of repair, understanding the legal
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.019
rules that interfere with repair. and also the
00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:32.319
legal rules that I think give us some leverage
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:38.299
to push back on these issues. So I think at its
00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:42.480
core, the right to repair is about giving consumers
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.380
control over the things that they buy, right?
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:50.380
We all rely heavily on a whole range of devices
00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:53.180
every day, right? We're glued to our smartphones.
00:24:53.549 --> 00:24:56.490
We're using laptops for work. We're driving around
00:24:56.490 --> 00:24:59.069
in cars that are essentially computers on wheels.
00:24:59.809 --> 00:25:02.369
Our home appliances are connected to the internet
00:25:02.369 --> 00:25:05.789
for reasons that don't always make sense. But
00:25:05.789 --> 00:25:09.930
because we're in such a sort of pervasive technological
00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:13.089
environment, I think it's really crucial that
00:25:13.089 --> 00:25:16.230
people are able to control their interactions
00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:19.170
with those devices. And a big part of that is
00:25:19.170 --> 00:25:21.650
just being able to fix them when they break.
00:25:21.910 --> 00:25:24.980
So I think that's kind of at its core, what the
00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:28.500
right to repair is about. In implementation,
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.500
it's meant a lot of different things. There are
00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:34.660
lots of different problems to solve, like the
00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:39.880
repair landscape is, I think, a complicated one
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:42.920
that has a lot of legal hurdles. And so the right
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:47.299
to repair has movement has taken a number of
00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:49.380
different strategies to try to address those
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:56.109
issues. So companies have been interested in
00:25:56.109 --> 00:25:58.470
planned obsolescence for a long time now. This
00:25:58.470 --> 00:26:00.670
really took off in the kind of post -World War
00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:06.029
II economy when our ability to quickly assemble
00:26:06.029 --> 00:26:09.349
products was sort of outpacing consumer demand
00:26:09.349 --> 00:26:11.410
for products. And so if you're making more than
00:26:11.410 --> 00:26:14.049
people are buying, you need stuff to break so
00:26:14.049 --> 00:26:16.069
that people will go out and spend more money.
00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:19.839
And so sometimes that's a matter of using cheap
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.960
materials. Sometimes that's a matter of making
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:25.019
sure that replacement parts aren't available
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:27.240
in the market. So if one component goes bad,
00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.660
you have little choice but to go out and buy
00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:33.720
a new one. So that's nothing new, really. What
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.640
has changed a lot in the last couple of decades
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.480
is a couple of things. One, we see more and more
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.420
software embedded in our devices. So functionality
00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:49.519
that used to be the byproduct of physical components
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:53.480
is now being executed through electronics that's
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:58.279
controlled by software and software gives um
00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:00.819
manufacturers I think a much more granular level
00:27:00.819 --> 00:27:05.019
of control over how long the product works right
00:27:05.019 --> 00:27:08.279
so a good example of this is there are some home
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.960
printers in the market that are literally programmed
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.980
to stop functioning after they print a set number
00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:18.880
of pages. And the excuse from the printer manufacturer
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.440
is, well, we've got this little sponge in the
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.200
bottom of your printer to soak up excess ink,
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.640
and we estimate that after X number of pages
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:29.839
printed, that sponge is going to be saturated.
00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:32.819
And so for your safety, we disable your printer,
00:27:32.900 --> 00:27:34.900
right? Now, of course, you can go out and buy
00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:36.960
this sponge for like $1 .50, but they don't tell
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.539
you that, right? So software lets you do that
00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.400
sort of thing in a way that was really unthinkable
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.140
before. Software also ties into the other...
00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:47.950
new development here, which is the use of the
00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:52.049
law to interfere with repair. So copyright law
00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:55.809
applies to software and that means not only do
00:27:55.809 --> 00:27:58.410
companies have this sort of practical level of
00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:03.750
control, they can also use legal threats to deny
00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:06.769
consumers access to the software that they need
00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:15.700
to fix the products that they buy. So I think
00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:18.319
in a lot of ways, the pushback started in the
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:28.039
automotive space. Because of the expensive vehicles,
00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:30.500
repair is a really important consideration when
00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:33.299
people are making a decision about what cars
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:36.839
they're going to buy. And because repairs are
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.920
expensive, people are more sensitive to repair
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:44.759
restrictions. 20 years or so ago, when we started
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:49.420
to see the real explosion of sort of electronics
00:28:49.420 --> 00:28:52.700
and software code in vehicles, there started
00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:55.880
to be a real concern that manufacturers could
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:58.779
take steps that would make it difficult, if not
00:28:58.779 --> 00:29:01.319
impossible for independent repair shops to keep
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:04.599
working on cars. And so we still see this to
00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.619
some extent now, right? So if you have like a
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:10.480
crack in your windshield, you can't just go anywhere.
00:29:11.629 --> 00:29:14.430
car dealer would tell you to get that windshield
00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:17.869
repaired because there's all these sensors at
00:29:17.869 --> 00:29:19.869
the front of your car that have to be calibrated
00:29:19.869 --> 00:29:21.789
and you need access to software and it turns
00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:24.390
out that makes it a whole lot more expensive
00:29:24.390 --> 00:29:29.230
to fix that windshield. The worry was every component
00:29:29.230 --> 00:29:31.289
on a car was going to function that way, right?
00:29:31.289 --> 00:29:35.450
If you want to switch out a broken tail light,
00:29:35.609 --> 00:29:37.809
you're going to have to... connect to a computer
00:29:37.809 --> 00:29:44.349
and have that part authenticated. And so Massachusetts
00:29:44.349 --> 00:29:48.170
was an early leader in this space and passed
00:29:48.170 --> 00:29:52.210
an automotive right to repair law that became
00:29:52.210 --> 00:29:54.210
a kind of informal model for the rest of the
00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:57.170
United States, all of the manufacturers and part.
00:29:57.259 --> 00:30:00.500
suppliers basically all agreed to treat that
00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:03.099
law as if it were the law across the entire U
00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:06.119
.S. And so that solved the problem in the automotive
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:11.359
space for a few years until wireless telematic
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:13.579
systems get introduced and that complicates things.
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.920
But we also saw all these same strategies to
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.519
control repair markets. popping up in other spaces,
00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:23.380
right? So, you know, Apple made it really difficult
00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:27.019
for a long time to have anyone other than Apple
00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:30.039
fix your phone. You know, John Deere, as I said,
00:30:30.380 --> 00:30:32.900
pulls the same strategy, showed a lots of companies.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.339
I mean, these are the ones that I think are in
00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:39.380
the headlines most often, but this is not a problem
00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:41.519
that's isolated to just a handful of companies.
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.369
It's really pervasive across... the electronics
00:30:45.369 --> 00:30:48.109
space to the extent that companies that actually
00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:53.170
do go out of their way to Facilitate and encourage
00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:55.849
consumer repair like they get a lot of attention
00:30:55.849 --> 00:30:59.470
for those policies because they're such outliers
00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:05.369
My first book which I wrote with Jason Schultz
00:31:05.369 --> 00:31:08.829
is called the end of ownership and it's a hundred
00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:12.930
percent focusing on this question of the shift
00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:18.900
from us owning tangible assets, physical copies,
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:22.539
and moving in a direction towards sort of licensed
00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:25.380
digital access, whether that's through, you know,
00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:27.059
at the time we wrote that book, it was that kind
00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:30.660
of era of the iTunes music store and, you know,
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.180
downloading an album for $9 .99. And since then,
00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:35.680
right, of course, we've kind of transitioned
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:41.059
into the subscription streaming economy. And
00:31:41.059 --> 00:31:44.380
so I think for me the overarching issue really
00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:48.660
is what does it mean to own something in this
00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:54.819
sort of digitally mediated economy? maybe more
00:31:54.819 --> 00:31:57.119
importantly, what does it mean that we don't
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.299
own anything in this digitally mediated economy,
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:03.039
right? So I think it puts us all in a pretty
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:06.220
precarious position. You know, there's a loss
00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:09.880
of autonomy, there's a loss of control over how
00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:13.220
we interact with things, over whether or not
00:32:13.220 --> 00:32:15.900
the things that we purchased. or think that we
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:18.339
purchased are going to be available tomorrow
00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:21.619
when I wake up, right? Is Amazon gonna decide
00:32:21.619 --> 00:32:23.339
that, actually, I don't get to keep that book?
00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.019
Is Apple gonna decide, oh, actually, we pulled
00:32:26.019 --> 00:32:28.480
that movie from our store, so even though you
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:32.079
spent $20 on it, too bad for you. You should
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.920
have read the fine print, right? And that all
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:40.420
feels maybe like a little trivial in the context
00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:44.230
of entertainment content. One of the things that
00:32:44.230 --> 00:32:46.250
I think is really important about the right to
00:32:46.250 --> 00:32:49.849
repair movement is that it shows what happens
00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:53.849
when we import the same legal concepts and we
00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:58.170
import the same sort of dismissal of ownership
00:32:58.170 --> 00:33:01.789
from a purely digital world to the physical world
00:33:01.789 --> 00:33:04.390
that relies on digital technology, right? So
00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:06.369
it's kind of, you know, it's made its way out
00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:11.380
of just like the pure internet. into the physical
00:33:11.380 --> 00:33:14.279
space that we all occupy every day. When we wrote
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:19.799
that book 10 years ago, I think there were some
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:24.519
people who took the argument seriously, and I
00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.579
think there were some people who... and the stakes
00:33:28.579 --> 00:33:30.880
don't seem particularly high here. And also,
00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:32.799
isn't it really nice and convenient that I can
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:36.000
pay $10 a month for Netflix and watch all these
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.720
movies? And now 10 years later, you're paying
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.799
$25 a month for Netflix and watching way fewer
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:44.480
movies. So, you know, I think there's a sense
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:49.410
in which this puts us... at the mercy of these
00:33:49.410 --> 00:33:53.950
increasingly massive concentrated companies in
00:33:53.950 --> 00:33:58.309
ways that I think we ought to be frankly quite
00:33:58.309 --> 00:34:01.369
frightened about. And I think that's starting
00:34:01.369 --> 00:34:14.860
to sort of sink in for people. Any impediment
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:18.940
to consumers repairing their device, whether
00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:22.739
that is a function of the physical design of
00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:25.800
the product, the software design of the product,
00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:30.199
or the legal restrictions that companies impose
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.380
on those products, I think those are all vectors
00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:41.880
for this impingement of consumer rights. This
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.579
is an issue that comes up in a lot of contexts,
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:47.059
right? Companies decide, we don't really want
00:34:47.059 --> 00:34:50.460
to support this device with new software updates
00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:54.940
anymore. And so we're going to suspend those
00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:57.500
automatic software updates. I wouldn't say it's
00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:00.420
an entirely distinct issue. I think it's a closely
00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:03.739
related problem to the right to repair issues
00:35:03.739 --> 00:35:06.719
that we've been talking about. Sometimes that
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:08.920
means a device just stops functioning altogether.
00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:12.659
If it's one that depends on access to a remote
00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:16.739
server. So maybe the most famous example of this
00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:20.840
is a device called the Revolve that Nest put
00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.380
out maybe, I don't know, this was almost a decade
00:35:23.380 --> 00:35:26.159
ago at this point. And they just announced one
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:29.019
day, hey, it was a home automation hub, right?
00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:32.719
So you would connect this thing to your thermostat
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:35.559
and your automatic blinds and your television,
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:37.820
and it would set the scene for you at various
00:35:37.820 --> 00:35:41.260
times a day. And they just decided one day, we're
00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:43.699
not going to keep this thing working. And on
00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:46.860
X date, it's just going to become a brick. It's
00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:50.219
not going to function at all anymore. Other times,
00:35:50.619 --> 00:35:54.760
like we've had recently with Windows, an announcement
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.639
that, hey, we're not going to support this operating
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.219
system anymore. And so all those devices that
00:36:00.219 --> 00:36:03.199
are relying on this operating system. they're
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.000
just not gonna get software updates, right? And
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.840
if you work in a major corporation or you work
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.860
in a university like I do, you can't run a device
00:36:11.860 --> 00:36:14.440
that's not getting frequent software updates
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:16.480
because it becomes a security vulnerability.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:23.630
So the right to repair. laws that have been enacted
00:36:23.630 --> 00:36:27.769
so far have not directly addressed those issues,
00:36:28.150 --> 00:36:30.170
but I know there's some other model legislation
00:36:30.170 --> 00:36:34.030
out there that does focus on things like providing
00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:38.929
consumers clear notice about the period of time
00:36:38.929 --> 00:36:41.110
during which they should expect software support
00:36:41.110 --> 00:36:44.570
and holding companies accountable for those statements.
00:36:44.989 --> 00:36:48.409
mandating minimum periods of support. And there's
00:36:48.409 --> 00:36:53.369
also, I think, a conversation to be had about
00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:57.789
putting source code in escrow or requiring companies
00:36:57.789 --> 00:37:02.650
to make code available on open source terms if
00:37:02.650 --> 00:37:04.449
they decide they're not going to support these
00:37:04.449 --> 00:37:07.710
devices anymore so that people can do it themselves.
00:37:09.369 --> 00:37:14.639
So I think that's a big concern as we see you
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:18.760
know, investments in, you know, like very expensive
00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:21.780
electric vehicles that are entirely dependent
00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:24.960
on software. And so when the company goes bankrupt,
00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:27.860
what happens with the software code that you
00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:31.079
need to keep your car, you know, not only operating,
00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:34.280
but safe on the road for everyone else, right?
00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.559
These things can't just be abandoned in the way
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:42.449
that, you know, like some software tool that
00:37:42.449 --> 00:37:45.610
I used in 1995 gets abandoned, right? There's
00:37:45.610 --> 00:37:55.530
some real consequences that flow from this. So
00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:58.849
in the United States, the legislative efforts
00:37:58.849 --> 00:38:02.389
have largely focused on a kind of state -by -state
00:38:02.389 --> 00:38:05.949
campaign. There are important issues that need
00:38:05.949 --> 00:38:09.920
to be addressed by Congress. But it's turned
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:14.900
out that state legislatures are places where
00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:17.900
more things get done than Washington DC, which
00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:19.960
is probably not a surprise to lots of folks.
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.659
State lawmakers, I think, are kind of... in a
00:38:23.659 --> 00:38:25.860
more direct relationship with their constituents.
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.019
So I think they're a little bit more likely to
00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:31.719
be influenced by people in the community who
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.019
come in and say, hey, it's like way too expensive
00:38:34.019 --> 00:38:37.079
to fix my car, or it's way too expensive to get
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:39.360
my tractor up and running again. What are you
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.739
going to do about this? And so. We've seen a
00:38:42.739 --> 00:38:45.260
lot of success in the United States so far in
00:38:45.260 --> 00:38:47.719
getting state -level right to repair laws passed.
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:51.960
Basically what those laws do is that they require
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:58.019
manufacturers to make parts, software, tools,
00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.300
diagnostic information, all of that stuff available
00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:04.880
to consumers and to independent repair providers.
00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:07.440
So that means if you're an ambitious consumer
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.179
and you want to try and fix your tractor yourself,
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.360
go for it. If you want to go to a mom and pop
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:15.719
shop down the road instead of the John Deere
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:18.519
dealer 100 miles away, you have the option to
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:22.300
do that too, so that reduces prices. And I think
00:39:22.300 --> 00:39:24.500
that's been important. It's been effective. At
00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:27.480
this point, I think more than 100 million Americans
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.400
live in states that have passed right to repair
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.199
laws over the last few years. And I think that's
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.940
pretty significant. We've got laws passed in
00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:38.639
California and Texas, which gets you a lot of
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:43.380
the way to 100 million people. There are other
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:46.500
things that I think need to be done, but that's
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:48.880
the progress that's been made so far here in
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:53.030
the U .S. The state right to repair laws that
00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:58.030
have been passed apply to both physical components
00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:01.849
and software components. So if I need some piece
00:40:01.849 --> 00:40:06.730
of software to diagnose or repair or calibrate
00:40:06.730 --> 00:40:09.730
my device, the manufacturer has to make that
00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:13.570
available to the consumer or to the independent
00:40:13.570 --> 00:40:17.880
repair provider. One of the things that state
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:22.280
law can't do is change federal copyright law.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.179
And so there's some changes that I think are
00:40:25.179 --> 00:40:27.559
really important and really necessary that have
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:31.420
to do with software that really are problems
00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:34.360
that Congress needs to address. So one of those
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:37.480
is this idea of digital rights management. So
00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:39.739
these are like software locks, right? They're
00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:42.559
little digital locks that keep you out of certain
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:46.840
components of a device. And federal copyright
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:50.780
law makes it illegal to remove or bypass those
00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:54.780
digital locks. It also makes it illegal to create
00:40:54.780 --> 00:40:57.440
tools to help other people remove those digital
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:02.940
locks. And so oftentimes there are technical
00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:07.599
barriers that are kind of backed up with legal
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:10.420
liability that stop people from even getting
00:41:10.420 --> 00:41:15.980
access to the software that they need to, you
00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:18.920
know, that they need to diagnose a problem with
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.880
their device. I'd like to see some legislation
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:28.039
in that space because, as I said, that's something
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.599
that the state -level laws aren't really in a
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:36.260
position to affect. In the legislation that's
00:41:36.260 --> 00:41:41.559
been passed, we've seen some states that are
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:45.119
happy to take a really broad view and say any
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.019
electronic device is covered by these right to
00:41:48.019 --> 00:41:52.380
repair laws. In other instances, We've seen carve
00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:54.739
-outs for particular industries, right? So in
00:41:54.739 --> 00:41:57.760
states where there might be a really powerful
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.380
agricultural lobby, it's going to be harder to
00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:04.440
get tractors included. Or in some instances,
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.460
there's been pushback to repair for medical devices.
00:42:08.539 --> 00:42:12.170
Now, I'm not persuaded by those arguments. But
00:42:12.170 --> 00:42:15.070
if it's a question of getting a more narrow bill
00:42:15.070 --> 00:42:17.769
passed or getting no bill passed at all, I'll
00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:19.789
take the narrow bill every day, right? I think
00:42:19.789 --> 00:42:23.429
that's a smart trade -off. In part because once
00:42:23.429 --> 00:42:26.469
you prove that the sky isn't going to fall if
00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:29.449
people get to repair their phones and their televisions
00:42:29.449 --> 00:42:32.889
and their refrigerators, then it's easier to
00:42:32.889 --> 00:42:34.510
help people understand that the sky isn't going
00:42:34.510 --> 00:42:37.869
to fall if we let people repair their cars or
00:42:37.869 --> 00:42:41.170
let... trained medical technicians in hospitals
00:42:41.170 --> 00:42:44.289
fix ventilators that aren't working, right? So
00:42:44.289 --> 00:42:47.570
I think the kind of incremental nature of this
00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:51.269
in a lot of ways keeps the momentum going and
00:42:51.269 --> 00:42:53.750
allows advocates to make these arguments even
00:42:53.750 --> 00:42:57.730
more convincingly as time goes on. I do think
00:42:57.730 --> 00:43:02.989
it has had an effect on company policies. Apple,
00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:06.460
I think, is a good example here. Apple... resisted
00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:09.619
right to repair legislation in California for
00:43:09.619 --> 00:43:13.059
years until it became clear to them they were
00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:15.400
going to lose, and that was going to be embarrassing,
00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:17.739
right? And at that point, they said, actually,
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.260
OK, we'll support this legislation. And in fact,
00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:23.980
we're going to create a new program to sell replacement
00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:27.099
parts directly to consumers. That's something
00:43:27.099 --> 00:43:30.289
that Apple never did. for a very long time, their
00:43:30.289 --> 00:43:33.130
policy was very clear. We're not gonna sell you
00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:35.610
a new screen for your iPhone. If you need a screen,
00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:38.610
you come in and you pay us to install it. And
00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:41.289
they moved away from that, partly because of
00:43:41.289 --> 00:43:45.070
legislation, partly, I think, and this is speculation
00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:49.550
on my part, but partly because at the point where
00:43:49.550 --> 00:43:54.440
Lena Con was running the FTC and the Biden, Department
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.019
of Justice was more interested in antitrust enforcement.
00:43:58.019 --> 00:44:01.159
I think they saw, you know, a potential enforcement
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.940
action coming towards them for refusing to make
00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:08.719
these replacement parts available. So we've seen
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:12.599
companies shift around their repair policies,
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.280
loosening them up. And I think that's for the
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.340
best. I think we've also seen some gestures towards
00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:25.000
designing and manufacturing more repairable products.
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:28.019
I think Apple deserves some credit there as well.
00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:32.579
I think we could go further. In the United States,
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:36.780
there's a real reluctance to have regulators
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:41.480
and lawmakers intervene in the design of products,
00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:43.500
right? We tend to take a pretty hands -off approach
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:45.739
and say, listen, you know, they're the experts.
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.059
We'll let them decide how to make their products.
00:44:48.099 --> 00:44:50.690
I think generally that makes sense. We don't
00:44:50.690 --> 00:44:52.469
always do that, right? There came a point where
00:44:52.469 --> 00:44:56.690
we required every automaker in this country to
00:44:56.690 --> 00:44:59.929
put seat belts in their cars, right? And yes,
00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:02.389
that interfered with their freedom to design
00:45:02.389 --> 00:45:05.030
the product in the way that they saw fit, but
00:45:05.030 --> 00:45:09.070
it served an important public purpose. We haven't
00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:11.030
done that yet in the electronics space. I think
00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:16.869
Europe is more inclined to be... Sort of interventionist
00:45:16.869 --> 00:45:19.929
in that way. We've seen this a little bit already.
00:45:20.730 --> 00:45:23.889
So Europe has this eco design directive that's
00:45:23.889 --> 00:45:26.730
been around for a few years And one of the things
00:45:26.730 --> 00:45:29.409
that it does is for certain products like home
00:45:29.409 --> 00:45:34.070
appliances right a washing machine a dryer it
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.639
requires that those products be designed in a
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:40.800
way that they can be disassembled using everyday
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.980
household tools, no special exotic screwdrivers
00:45:44.980 --> 00:45:47.940
needed, and also in a way that you can disassemble
00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:50.519
the device without permanently damaging any of
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:52.900
the components. Because a lot of devices, right,
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:54.800
to actually disassemble them, you're going to
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:58.010
have to do more damage to the product. The U
00:45:58.010 --> 00:46:01.190
.S. hasn't done that. I think we should think
00:46:01.190 --> 00:46:02.869
about it. I think we should take that seriously.
00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:05.489
One thing that the Europeans have been floating
00:46:05.489 --> 00:46:09.809
in the electronics space is a return to the days
00:46:09.809 --> 00:46:12.230
of user replaceable batteries in smartphones.
00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.880
So for the, you know, older folks out there,
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:18.960
right, you might remember having a flip phone
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:22.340
or, you know, a Motorola Razr where you could
00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:26.340
literally with one thumb pop the cover open on
00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:28.480
the back of that device, pull out the battery,
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:32.340
and put in a fresh one. It didn't require spending
00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:35.960
hundreds of dollars. It didn't require, you know,
00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:39.000
specialized tools or anything along those lines.
00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:43.150
So... I would like to see some real thought given
00:46:43.150 --> 00:46:48.190
to those kinds of common sense requirements that
00:46:48.190 --> 00:46:51.570
still give companies plenty of room to innovate,
00:46:51.610 --> 00:46:55.969
but they take these consumer concerns and environmental
00:46:55.969 --> 00:46:58.429
concerns a lot more seriously than we do right
00:46:58.429 --> 00:47:06.130
now. The recycling issue I think is important
00:47:06.130 --> 00:47:09.920
and recycling is absolutely better than throwing
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:13.539
something in a landfill, no doubt about it. But
00:47:13.539 --> 00:47:18.079
I think recycling is often a distant second to
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:22.019
repair, right? Keeping something working as long
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:26.940
as we can is a value that I think we've sort
00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:30.099
of lost sight of. Part of planned obsolescence
00:47:30.099 --> 00:47:36.230
is marketing. Why does Apple... decide every
00:47:36.230 --> 00:47:40.210
year that the iPhone needs to come in some new
00:47:40.210 --> 00:47:45.670
set of colors. The same reason that in the 1950s,
00:47:45.670 --> 00:47:48.849
you know, Ford and GM decided that, you know,
00:47:49.530 --> 00:47:51.949
their cars needed to have bigger and bigger fins
00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:54.909
every year, right? So you could signal that you
00:47:54.909 --> 00:47:59.539
have the latest and greatest item. I think that
00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:02.880
drives a lot of consumer sentiment around these
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:06.219
things. And if we could get back to a point where
00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:11.760
people were actually proud to have a device that's
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:15.260
durable, rather than a device that simply happens
00:48:15.260 --> 00:48:18.179
to be new, I think that would have a big impact.
00:48:19.179 --> 00:48:22.739
So I think it changes the economy, right? We're
00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:27.090
gonna see a shift in spending from purchasing
00:48:27.090 --> 00:48:30.670
new devices to repairing devices. One thing that
00:48:30.670 --> 00:48:35.329
does is take money out of the coffers of trillion
00:48:35.329 --> 00:48:38.849
-dollar corporations and puts that money in the
00:48:38.849 --> 00:48:41.829
hands of local businesses. It also leaves more
00:48:41.829 --> 00:48:44.250
money in the pockets of the consumer in the first
00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:46.829
place that they can go spend on something else,
00:48:46.949 --> 00:48:48.829
right? So I'm not terribly worried about a kind
00:48:48.829 --> 00:48:54.880
of like macroeconomic collapse because of the
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.900
repair economy. One thing we have to take seriously
00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:02.300
though, and this is not often a popular opinion,
00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:05.840
but we have to take seriously the idea that maybe
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:10.019
products need to cost more upfront in exchange
00:49:10.019 --> 00:49:13.340
for greater durability. People don't like the
00:49:13.340 --> 00:49:17.449
idea of Increasing costs I get it cars are too
00:49:17.449 --> 00:49:20.670
expensive already phones are too expensive already
00:49:20.670 --> 00:49:24.550
But part of what's happening right now is a kind
00:49:24.550 --> 00:49:28.110
of dishonesty You know, so a company is willing
00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:31.929
to sell you Let's take John Deere for example,
00:49:32.010 --> 00:49:34.550
right John Deere is willing to sell you a tractor
00:49:34.550 --> 00:49:38.409
for let's say $100 ,000 right not a particularly
00:49:38.409 --> 00:49:40.369
expensive tractor, but you know for most of us
00:49:40.369 --> 00:49:43.909
more tractor than we need You're willing to spend
00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:46.449
that money, but what John Deere doesn't tell
00:49:46.449 --> 00:49:49.989
you is that price includes a bunch of predictions
00:49:49.989 --> 00:49:52.309
about how much money you're going to spend down
00:49:52.309 --> 00:49:57.469
the line on repair and service, right? I think
00:49:57.469 --> 00:50:01.849
we might be better off if companies had to be
00:50:01.849 --> 00:50:05.269
upfront about the total cost of ownership of
00:50:05.269 --> 00:50:08.030
these devices. And if part of what they're pricing
00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:11.050
in is the money they're going to take from us
00:50:11.050 --> 00:50:14.530
over the long run, in the 10 or 20 years that
00:50:14.530 --> 00:50:19.130
you own this particular item. That might lead
00:50:19.130 --> 00:50:22.550
to an increase in the initial price, but I think
00:50:22.550 --> 00:50:25.550
in the long run, it actually saves consumers
00:50:25.550 --> 00:50:29.730
money. It requires a shift from that kind of
00:50:29.730 --> 00:50:33.269
sticker price mentality to the sort of total
00:50:33.269 --> 00:50:37.869
cost of ownership mentality. One way you do that
00:50:37.869 --> 00:50:40.010
is that you force companies to be more honest
00:50:40.010 --> 00:50:42.630
about what they really plan on charging you in
00:50:42.630 --> 00:50:46.110
the long run. I think there are absolutely circumstances
00:50:46.110 --> 00:50:50.610
where at least initially for new products, manufacturers...
00:50:50.750 --> 00:50:54.070
might be in a better position to offer repair
00:50:54.070 --> 00:50:56.909
because they have a better understanding of the
00:50:56.909 --> 00:50:59.130
components of the device, how they're put together.
00:50:59.550 --> 00:51:02.530
That's certainly true. But I think one thing
00:51:02.530 --> 00:51:07.190
we see from sites like iFixit that do teardowns
00:51:07.190 --> 00:51:09.710
of new products is that people who are skilled
00:51:09.710 --> 00:51:12.909
in this space can learn pretty quickly those
00:51:12.909 --> 00:51:16.570
ins and outs. There's a lot of sort of distributed
00:51:16.570 --> 00:51:21.070
expertise out there in the world. And I think
00:51:21.070 --> 00:51:23.269
my vision, and the vision that a lot of folks
00:51:23.269 --> 00:51:26.750
in the right to repair space would endorse, is
00:51:26.750 --> 00:51:28.869
one in which, of course, you should be able to
00:51:28.869 --> 00:51:31.510
go to the manufacturer if you want to, right?
00:51:31.530 --> 00:51:34.309
Of course that option should be available. You
00:51:34.309 --> 00:51:37.510
know, if I need to get my car fixed, my first
00:51:37.510 --> 00:51:40.349
stop is probably going to be to call the dealer,
00:51:40.750 --> 00:51:43.269
right? It might not be my only call, but that's
00:51:43.269 --> 00:51:45.590
probably where I'm going to look first. And so
00:51:45.590 --> 00:51:47.889
if we're in a competitive market where lots of
00:51:47.889 --> 00:51:50.349
people can offer these repair services, that's
00:51:50.349 --> 00:51:53.090
going to keep prices low. And that's also going
00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:56.070
to create incentives for high quality responsive
00:51:56.070 --> 00:51:59.869
repair. When you have a monopoly, not only do
00:51:59.869 --> 00:52:02.150
you get to jack up the prices, but you also get
00:52:02.150 --> 00:52:05.989
to provide sort of bad service. I mean, people
00:52:05.989 --> 00:52:09.869
remember subscribing to cable television, I imagine,
00:52:10.030 --> 00:52:14.000
right? That's an example of, you know, in most
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.539
markets, a company that has monopoly power, so
00:52:16.539 --> 00:52:19.480
they charge you through the roof and everyone
00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:22.980
hates them, right? I don't think that's the vision
00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:25.940
we should have for, you know, the markets for
00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:29.559
repairing our daily devices. There's some good
00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:33.099
resources out there. The website for the Repair
00:52:33.099 --> 00:52:36.440
Association, Repair .org, an organization I'm
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:41.639
on the board of, maintains a pretty active list
00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:44.000
of states where the right to repair has been
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:47.880
enacted, states where legislation has been introduced.
00:52:48.099 --> 00:52:50.639
And so you can go there and find out if there's
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.639
a bill pending in your state. And if there is,
00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:57.599
there's often opportunity to submit written comments.
00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:01.829
of these bills. There are hearings where, you
00:53:01.829 --> 00:53:04.449
know, I've attended some hearings where, you
00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:07.969
know, testimony from community members I think
00:53:07.969 --> 00:53:12.829
was incredibly influential in changing the viewpoint
00:53:12.829 --> 00:53:16.130
of legislators. So I think those are two very
00:53:16.130 --> 00:53:18.730
concrete ways that you can get involved. The
00:53:18.730 --> 00:53:21.650
other thing that I think is important is, you
00:53:21.650 --> 00:53:23.909
know, kind of voting with your wallet, right?
00:53:24.690 --> 00:53:30.380
Make decisions when you're... engaging in a purchase
00:53:30.380 --> 00:53:35.940
that are informed by these issues of repairability.
00:53:37.340 --> 00:53:40.559
Think about who you want to spend your money
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.619
with. Think about what businesses you want to
00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:46.539
support. If there's a local... independent repair
00:53:46.539 --> 00:53:49.239
shop in your community, think about stopping
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:52.460
by the next time there's a problem with your
00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:55.260
phone. I've had really great experiences with
00:53:55.260 --> 00:53:57.500
folks that run these small businesses. They're
00:53:57.500 --> 00:53:59.719
incredibly responsive, they're really attentive,
00:54:00.139 --> 00:54:02.059
they're often like smart and interesting people
00:54:02.059 --> 00:54:06.179
and fun to talk to. So I think those are three
00:54:06.179 --> 00:54:09.139
things that you can do that aren't particularly...
00:54:09.070 --> 00:54:12.710
labor -intensive, they don't require any special
00:54:12.710 --> 00:54:16.090
expertise or knowledge, but just kind of sharing
00:54:16.090 --> 00:54:19.369
your own stories I think can be a really powerful
00:54:19.369 --> 00:54:30.110
part of this process. One thing that I've learned
00:54:30.110 --> 00:54:34.659
through this process is that the right to repair
00:54:34.659 --> 00:54:37.840
appeals to lots of different constituencies for
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:40.699
lots of very different reasons, right? So if
00:54:40.699 --> 00:54:43.440
I'm talking to a sort of left -leaning person
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:45.940
about the right to repair, I'm going to focus
00:54:45.940 --> 00:54:48.960
on the environmental impact of kind of disposable
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.000
consumerism, right? We're throwing out all of
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:54.699
these devices, like we throw out an obscene number.
00:54:55.720 --> 00:55:00.059
phones and televisions every year. That's wasteful
00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:02.960
both on the front end because we have to produce
00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:06.019
new devices to replace them and that requires
00:55:06.019 --> 00:55:08.960
right all sorts of mining of rare earth metals
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:10.960
and like lots of environmentally destructive
00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.460
practices just to make these products and then
00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:16.000
we're throwing them into landfills and they're
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.099
all full of heavy metals and you know you know
00:55:19.099 --> 00:55:21.719
chemicals that are gonna poison the groundwater
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:25.610
right that is reason enough for a lot of people
00:55:25.610 --> 00:55:28.550
to take this issue seriously. If I'm talking
00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:32.130
to a more conservative person, I might emphasize
00:55:32.130 --> 00:55:34.730
economic impact here, right? We're going to have
00:55:34.730 --> 00:55:37.289
savings for consumers. We're going to encourage
00:55:37.289 --> 00:55:39.869
small businesses, independent repair shops, our
00:55:39.869 --> 00:55:43.769
local businesses, right? They're not thousand
00:55:43.769 --> 00:55:47.730
store best buy chains around the country, right?
00:55:47.730 --> 00:55:49.969
So that money is going to stay in the local economy.
00:55:50.369 --> 00:55:53.920
And I think I would also emphasize to that that
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.760
same kind of from that same conservative perspective.
00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:00.760
the value of personal property rights. It means
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:03.659
something to own my car, right? And what it ought
00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:07.940
to mean is I can do whatever I please with that
00:56:07.940 --> 00:56:10.420
vehicle within the bounds of the law, right?
00:56:10.460 --> 00:56:13.519
So if I want to fix it when it breaks down, I
00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:15.219
should be able to do that. If I want to modify
00:56:15.219 --> 00:56:18.280
it to perform better for my needs, I ought to
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:21.539
be able to do that too. And so I think there's
00:56:21.539 --> 00:56:25.699
an argument here for everyone, which is... One
00:56:25.699 --> 00:56:27.780
of the reasons that all the polling on the right
00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:31.500
to repair shows, you know, Republicans, Democrats,
00:56:31.820 --> 00:56:36.099
independents, 80 to 90 % approval on this issue.
00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:40.340
And so I think when you get that in front of
00:56:40.340 --> 00:56:44.400
a lawmaker, it's pretty tough for them to resist
00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.880
these arguments, even though there's a lot of
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:49.260
money and a lot of lobbying on the other side
00:56:49.260 --> 00:56:56.820
of the issue. Thanks to Aaron Perzanowski from
00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:59.280
the University of Michigan. You can find his
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:01.860
book, The Right to Repair, reclaiming the things
00:57:01.860 --> 00:57:04.340
that we own at your favorite independent bookseller.
00:57:04.820 --> 00:57:06.840
And thanks again to Steve Figgett at Sycamore
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:09.480
International. You can find out more about electronic
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:12.840
recycling at sycamoreinternational .com. We'll
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:15.219
have those links and more resources in the show
00:57:15.219 --> 00:57:20.929
notes. And that's a wrap on this season of the
00:57:20.929 --> 00:57:23.730
Circle Up podcast. You know, Candice, every time
00:57:23.730 --> 00:57:25.889
I get discouraged about the state of the world,
00:57:26.130 --> 00:57:28.389
I think about all the people and businesses we've
00:57:28.389 --> 00:57:30.329
talked to over the course of this season. And
00:57:30.329 --> 00:57:32.289
it gives me hope that we can get to a circular
00:57:32.289 --> 00:57:35.710
economy here in Philly. Same. And what really
00:57:35.710 --> 00:57:38.150
grounds me is how tangible the progress already
00:57:38.150 --> 00:57:40.570
is. We're not just talking about these ideas.
00:57:40.869 --> 00:57:43.969
We're seeing real service providers, real neighborhoods,
00:57:44.150 --> 00:57:46.989
real businesses. proving that circular systems
00:57:46.989 --> 00:57:50.449
work. Whether it's companies redesigning packaging,
00:57:51.369 --> 00:57:53.250
organizations building reuse infrastructure,
00:57:53.750 --> 00:57:56.409
or community groups keeping materials in circulation,
00:57:56.989 --> 00:57:59.610
the momentum is real and it's happening right
00:57:59.610 --> 00:58:02.010
here in Philadelphia, not in some hypothetical
00:58:02.010 --> 00:58:05.489
future. That's what makes me believe we can scale
00:58:05.489 --> 00:58:11.440
this because people are already doing it. And
00:58:11.440 --> 00:58:13.699
if you've been listening to this season and thinking,
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:17.960
I want to help move this forward, you can. Becoming
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.300
a member or sponsor of Circular Philadelphia
00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:23.480
directly supports the work we're doing to build
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:26.880
the policies, the infrastructure, and the partnerships
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:30.630
that make a circular economy possible. Membership
00:58:30.630 --> 00:58:33.230
strengthens our advocacy and our community network,
00:58:33.570 --> 00:58:36.869
and sponsorship helps us expand programs, convene
00:58:36.869 --> 00:58:39.769
stakeholders, and accelerate real systems change
00:58:39.769 --> 00:58:42.710
across the city. Because the more people and
00:58:42.710 --> 00:58:45.210
the more organizations who step into this work,
00:58:45.670 --> 00:58:48.170
the faster Philadelphia becomes a place where
00:58:48.170 --> 00:58:51.050
circularity isn't the exception. It's the norm.
00:59:02.700 --> 00:59:06.099
Thanks so much for listening to the Circle Podcast.
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:08.980
And if you've enjoyed this series, tell all your
00:59:08.980 --> 00:59:11.860
friends. And a special thanks again to all of
00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:14.199
our contributors throughout the series. Everyone
00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:16.880
who shared their expertise, opened their doors,
00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:19.920
told their stories, and let us bring listeners
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:22.400
behind the scenes of the circular economy in
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.719
action. This season wouldn't exist without their
00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:28.619
time and their commitment to doing things differently.
00:59:30.300 --> 00:59:33.320
The Circle Up podcast is presented by Circular
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:36.260
Philadelphia. It was produced by Meredith Nutting
00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:39.639
at Cool Goon Productions. This podcast was supported
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:41.940
by a grant from Penn Treaty Special Services
00:59:41.940 --> 00:59:44.699
District. If you want to learn more about the
00:59:44.699 --> 00:59:46.800
circular economy, go to circularphiladelphia
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:47.599
.org.