00:00:03
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business. I'm Peter Griffin, and this week I'm delving into the future of work, or more precisely, the future of your efforts to get a job, because AI is changing the hiring landscape quicker than you probably think. If you've ever wondered about how algorithms are re shaping who gets noticed in the pile of cvs, or what employers are looking for and recruits in the era of AI, you'll want to keep listening. I'm joined on a business of tech this week by Kara Smith, managing director al tauroa for the global recruitment giant Talent, and Jack Jorgensen, general Manager Data, AI and Innovation at AVOC, the talent owned tech company sort of their sister company that does all the tech underpinning their HR and recruitment efforts. Kara told me that applications are coming into Talent in record numbers at the moment. It's a soft market, so any decent position is attracting huge interest across the recruitment industry. AI is scanning mountains of applications and filtering candidates before a human ever looks at them. So what does that mean for companies trying to find real talent amidst the noise? More importantly, what can job seekers actually do to stand out from the crowd of algorithm optimized cvs. Kara and Jack breakdown why it's no longer enough to just hit apply and why personal branding and proactive networking matter more than ever whether you're hiring, hustling, or just hoping to keep your career future proof. Stick around for some really useful advice. Here's the interview with Carra Smith and Jack Jordansen. Cara and Jack, Welcome to the Business of Tech.
00:01:57
Speaker 2: How are you doing? Very good? Thank you whatever, very good, good morning.
00:02:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're an Australia Jack coming in from Melbourne, so thanks for taking the time. Now you're from Avoc, which is a sister company to Talent, the big recruitment company.
00:02:12
Speaker 3: Yeah that's right. Yeah, we work with Talent on project delivery right.
00:02:15
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're going to get into some of the technical aspects of recruitment and the buzzword at the moment, it really is around artificial intelligence and the impact that is having. But Cara, it would be great for you to give us an overview. You've been at Talent well over a decade now in the recruitment game for at least a couple of decades. Keen to get your perspective on what is going on out there at the moment in the New Zealand market. It has been a tough, tough year, but you're seeing more applications than ever before. And this is what we're sort of hearing as well at Business Desk is that any half decent job that goes up is just mobbed with people. So there's a lot of people, you know, two hundred people sometimes applying from mid grade communications manager role, which is I've just never seen before. A lot of my friends who have been made redundant from journalism are finding themselves you're really missing out on jobs that maybe five years ago they would have got. So can you get your perspective on what's happening with applications and the amounts of decent jobs that are out there and how candidates are sort of navigating this at the moment.
00:03:28
Speaker 4: Well, firstly from a market perspective, you know, I think we all went away at Christmas and we're like, you know, we're going to come back in January and the market's going to have magically rebounded, and.
00:03:40
Speaker 2: Obviously that never happened.
00:03:42
Speaker 4: And look, I'm getting to a point and I believe a lot of our clients are getting to a point where I don't think that's going to happen. I think we need to accept that within reason, this is now our new normal. And therefore, what does that mean for candidates who are looking for jobs?
00:03:59
Speaker 2: So you are.
00:04:00
Speaker 4: Application rates have been on the increase for about actually eighteen months now and continue to climb every month. And anecdotally, you know, our clients are just absolutely swamped with applications, as are we as well. So what that does is it creates I think it creates two things.
00:04:19
Speaker 2: One, it creates an incredible amount of noise in.
00:04:21
Speaker 4: The market, and I think secondly, it creates a false perception that there are lots of fantastically skilled and suitable candidates for the role that you are advertising and recruiting for. And I don't really think that's the case. It's noise. There might be gems within that noise, but we're not in a hugely candidate rich market at the highly skilled area. And when you add the complexity on top of that that obviously from an AI and automation overall digital transformation perspective.
00:04:56
Speaker 2: The skill sets that are needed are really grown very very fast.
00:05:01
Speaker 4: That's changing, right, and people quite simply just don't necessarily have all those skills yet because we haven't been involved in those types of projects yet. So your overall question was what how are candidates? How are they navigating that? Look, I think I still talk to candidates that are overly reliant on job boards, They are overly reliant on applying for a job, and they just leave it at that, and that is just not going to be successful. They must use a multi pronged approach. For a market as small as I'm coming to you from Tamakimkodo, Auckland. So for a market as small as Auckland, for a market as small as New Zealand, your personal brand right now is absolutely everything. Because if a hiring manager opens up their their inbox or their ATS and says sees five hundred cvs whether it's right or wrong, They're going to naturally go who do I know and hear or what partner can I partner with that knows someone that can point me to so the right people or the people they think are right, they might not be right. I guess that's an important part rather than just dealing with all of us noise.
00:06:08
Speaker 1: And look, talent does quite a bit of recruitment in the tech related space, a lot of contract roles, particularly with Microsoft, HP and the like, you recruit for those technology stacks. What are you seeing specifically around tech recruitment? What we're sort of hearing overseas is really the tech industry is eating its own dog food when it comes to artificial intelligence and seeing big efficiencies there in software development and the like, and that is definitely leading to job losses but also slower recruitment as well. As we've always had quite a tight market when it comes to tech talent in New Zealand. It's hard to get really good people and we've leaned on immigration to get the people we need. What are you seeing at the moment specifically in tech.
00:06:52
Speaker 4: Specifically for tech, We're seeing a growing need of what I would say the skills around what's going to be happening is happening with in certain AI initiative, So that could be solutions, architecture, that could be data, that could be governance, that could be people who have advised pilot programs, you know, successfully before into scaling implementations. We're seeing a need for leaders who are change agents. We're seeing quite a lot of reorgit that leadership layer as well. And from a software development perspective, yes, we are kind of seeing a bit of a what I would almost call like a sinking lid recruitment policy. That the new normal or the new desired future state is that people will have leaner teams and you will have software development teams who are far more productive due to you know, advances in certain AI tools, et cetera. And so from again going back to the perspective for the candidate, the candidate themselves really need to be investing in do you have do you understand how to utilize those tools to make yourself more productive?
00:08:01
Speaker 2: And does that change?
00:08:02
Speaker 4: And I think it is changing the nature of So then what does a really good tech candidate do If ultimately you're using tools to do the more commoditized tasks, well, then your real strength is in creativity, problem solving, change management, stakeholder management. And I think that actually is the bigger is the bigger change and is going to be the bigger pressure in the market.
00:08:28
Speaker 2: In order to develop those skills.
00:08:29
Speaker 1: AI is changing every industry. The AI Forum's latest survey of businesses found the number of businesses that said they'd let staff go as a result of AI had double. It's still small, about fourteen percent, but it's also saying it's opening opportunities for existing staff, which goes to your point that the skill set is changing and you need to be ready for that. Jack from your point of view, you know these Karen mentioned these ATS's applicant tracking system which probably fill candidates with drid, you know as they tried to get through with their application and actually get in front of someone. What are these systems and how widely used are they now? Buy big recruiters, Every.
00:09:13
Speaker 3: Big recruit is using it. You've got you know, in the New Zealand market, you know, five hundred applicants going for one posting, straining market, it could be thousands of applicants going for a job posting. And if you're not using a system to try to clear through that volume, then you would have to have you know, thousands of people reviewing CBS for a job posting. So these ATS systems, as a gross simplification of what they do is that they will collect and store applicant information pase that information to look for keywords, and then they score that applicant against the job posting. They then help manage that candidate through the progression of the hiring pipeline, you know, scheduling, interviews, rejection notices. It's a centralized system to manage that component. The end, the recruiting firm will have time to hierometrics the source of hiometrics cost per hiometrics. I think it's important for candidates to understand that they are being put into these systems because from a sheer volume perspective, it just has to be done. Having a CV or a resume that is optimized for those is definitely going to help bring your chances up to the top of the pack. However, there are obviously some caveats and some ethics concerns that kind of play into that as well.
00:10:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the sorts of things these ATIS systems are looking for. Keywords are a key one, so looking for common section headings, formats, things like that, and then you've got optical character recognition. If someone sends into maybe a PDF for something with information and even images and there, the systems can extract that and look at it, and then you've got artificial intelligence there as well, extracting information inferring meaning from the context. In that I guess that's the really interesting one. How well that AI is at among five hundred cvs going, Ah, this person has the hard skills, but also the soft skills that are really going to suit this role.
00:11:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's still got a long way to go in regards to identifying those soft skills, especially so as if I was to look at hiring a candidate or going and putting a CV through myself, I'm not there to focus on the skills that I actually have. Now, I'm there to optimize my CV for a system. So it's more about how do I optimize my ranking as opposed to how do I showcase who I am as an individual? And what that does is those systems are going to start overlooking, you know, potential in candidates, because AI can't identify potential in a human being unconventional candidates, so any transferable skills unique non traditional candidates. You know, if we look at your journalistic colleagues that you mentioning before missing out of jobs that they would have normally gotten in the past. You know, these systems, you know someone may have mentioned two or three things more than them, or they've missed a single keyword on their CV which has de ranked them significantly. But they might be really really good for the job anyway. And AI I don't believe is going to make any major leaps and bounds in this regard in the near future, because even though you do have video analysis that's looking at para language analysis in videos, which obviously rides a very fine ethical line for biometric data collection, it's still not going to be anywhere near as good as a recruiter who knows the candidates, who understands the people, who understands your organization and what the culture is there and what they need as a business, and finding the right balance of the technical or the hard skill sets that are required for that role, but also the person and the mentality behind what that organization needs.
00:13:08
Speaker 1: The logical thing for me, I think, faced with this, God forbid, I have to go out there into the workforce in a soft market at the moment, but I would probably go to chat GPT to write my CV for me and prompt it to create a CV and a cover letter that is going to be optimized for putting my best foot forward. Are candidates doing that, and are you seeing that you starting to see the same sort of tropes and style emerging in cvs and cover letters.
00:13:38
Speaker 2: Yes and no, but it's definitely growing.
00:13:40
Speaker 4: I think what concerns me, and I talk to clients about this all the time, is if everyone starts doing that. I get why we're doing that, because we're trying to hit the matches and we're trying to be higher ranked in an ATS or a job board or maybe even a hiring managers taking fifteen cvs they've received from their recruitment partner and they're going, hey, I'm going to chuck this into my co pilot or something similar, and who would you recommend that I interview. I have no doubt all of these things are happening because quite simply, people are playing with the tools and they're low on time.
00:14:12
Speaker 2: So what worries me.
00:14:14
Speaker 4: Is just the the uniformity that starts to that starts to happen. And so I have to bring it back to a point that I made before that a candidate must take you know, I guess the bull by the horns more. They must have a multi pronged approach. They must be thinking about their network, they must be thinking about their personal brand. They must be thinking about can I can I get an internal referral at that organization as well? You know, so that there it's it can't if I think of it just solely relies on their CV. And if that then becomes solely relying on word matching, whether that's after you've engaged with the recruiter or before you've engaged with a recruiter, that that to me is a concern. So you've got to really think about what are the things that in your control. Another thing I would say, and this might sound a bit funny, when we you know, say, you know, spell check your resume and grammar check everything. I'm starting to almost like the odd grammar, the old grammar mistake. And my parents are teachers and they've drilled the stuff into me my whole life. But you know what, because then you know it's authentic. Then you know it's it's like that's a human being that's written that, and they've made a little mistake. Well, you know, mistakes are human and we kind of want those humans. And then the other thing I would say more to a client is if you're if you are taking cvs and putting it into some kind of ranking system, and if you're only working from that judgment, then you know, tell me the last time you hired someone that was a ten out of ten and hung around a long time, was actually engaged, actually learned a lot. It's not going to be the case. We know when we take a new role, if we've got that edge, if we've got that gap, if we have to learn something, we know, we're more engaged in the hiring manager to gets more out of that candidate as well. So that's the part about potential, that's the part about the full picture, and an ATS is not going to be able to give that to you.
00:16:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the human in the loop is really important. And so what does it look like now for one of your typical agents, you know, potentially looking at for great candidates for it contracting roles for instance. So they're getting hundreds of applicants. So is the system sort of creating a shortlist based on rankings, based on all the things we've been talking about, some of those keywords, some of the AI inference, and then they're wading through a short list of candidates.
00:16:36
Speaker 4: Only if and I'm answering from a talent perspective, now, only if we needed to go to that stage.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: I would call that an escalated search.
00:16:46
Speaker 4: So going back to the fact that over the last quarter, eighty two percent of all of our successful placements have not included a job board ashole, and that's because we every single time a role comes in, we're going to our networks, to the collect actives networks as well. Every contract role that comes into the Talent New Zealand business, we raise it and we go, hey, who do you know? So that networking is so so important. We then go to all of our talent pools, to the people that have contracted with us before, et cetera. And most of the time I would hesitate to say two thirds of the time we.
00:17:23
Speaker 2: Can have a short list from that poll.
00:17:26
Speaker 4: Only then would we need to go outside of that, and that might be for your new your niche skills, you're more in demand skills, et cetera. And then it's probably more direct headhunting. Again, another thing we've actually started doing because again we're trying to fight through that noise and fundamentally give our clients more confidence that they can move on this candidate. It's a real person that we've worked with before, et ceteras. We're actually taking reference checks up front, so we're now going we need more information to give to our clients to say you have done a project like that before that you've you know, what are your strengths to paint the candidate as a human being with real strengths and real potential. That's fundamentally what we're doing right now and with seeing some really good things from it.
00:18:13
Speaker 1: So do you recommend that people who are looking for jobs actually go approach recruitment agencies or companies directly and just say, look, I'm on the lookout for work. I think some people actually go to talent agencies and register themselves with them, so you know, contractors and they likes so that you're on their radar. Is that something that people should definitely in this environment be doing, actually reaching out proactively, even if they don't they're not looking for job today but maybe in the near future.
00:18:43
Speaker 4: Certainly so I would, And this is where I would be using the likes of chat GPT for I would be going, you know, these are my key strengths, these are the types of opportunities I'm looking in for. What recruitment agencies are specialists in that? So if it's in New Zealand talent specialists, tech and transformation recruitment, and then going proactively going to that organization and saying, hey, keen to pop into your office, keen to you know, shout you a cup of coffee. This is the magic of New Zealand right where we're so close and we're we're this kind of community. So you have to use it to your advantage. Really keen to talk to you proactively around the types of opportunities I'm interested in, you know, by strength some of my successful projects, et cetera, and learn about what you're seeing in the market. I would be trying to do everything a little bit in advance because often when we are engaging, well not often every time when we are, when we do receive a role from a hiring manager, we have to move at speed. So that's why we don't always put up an AD because it slows us down. We have to know the people already and we invest a lot of time at talent meeting, you know, candidates ahead of the curve.
00:19:54
Speaker 1: Traditionally, the good thing about applying to a job a job AD is it sort of seemed on the outside anyway like it was going to be a merit based decision. The recruiters would look at a group of people and people they didn't know or expect to apply for this job, and everyone got a fair crack at it. I think a lot of people would feel a little bit dirty, really sort of trying to make approaches over DMS on LinkedIn or whatever. But that's the reality of it. You've got to have this multi prong approach. But Jack from your point of view, with AI now in the loop looking at some of these applications, I guess the real concern for a talent agency for a company is if the system shows bias against someone you know. There have been some high profile cases as a chap in the US. Derek Mobley, he was an IT guy in North Carolina. He applied for over one hundred jobs, didn't get anything, applied to work Day a software company, and got rejected. Man of color with a disability, and he suspected that the system was flagging him as not appropriate. He took that to court. It's ongoing. I think there have been a number of high profile cases like this where people are going I'm getting nowhere and I'm getting eliminated at an early stage. So how do you deal with that from a bias point of view, making sure that you're not the system is not eliminating people who may be really good but on the surface don't seem appropriate.
00:21:21
Speaker 3: If I had an answer to that question, I think I'd be in a different job. So yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. One of the biggest challenges in that is the large language model, specifically so your chat GPT style AI is really opaque in its decision making and so challenging that AI's decision to understand why a particular candidate was rejected is near on impossible. At the moment, there are tools that are being developed to actually understand the chain of thought in a bit of a deeper way. We would have seen in older AIS before the kind of transformer AI model started coming out in twenty seventeen, those decision trees were very static. But with large language models, it is very, very opaque. From a bias perspective, AI doesn't eliminate bias, it almost codifies it. And so if we're looking at the historical data that that AI model has been trained on, and then for a company who is predominantly hired people from let's say MIT, then it's going to prioritize those traits and in turn amplify the bias within the system. It's kind of like an echo effect where it's you know, this person's from MIT, so they get boosted and they get the next person gets boosted because of that. So pulling the bias out of those models and getting them to be a lot more down the middle is a really really big challenge. But on top of that, if you do get it down the middle, then it's going to promote down the middle candidates. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best fit for your role, for what your organization needs. And so I think that there's really two things to consider. First is that AI is fantastic as a use case to pull the wheat from the chaff. So if you've got people who've never worked in that industry before, you know they've had a role that's in supply chain and now they're going for a finance director, you know they might not have the skill sets to complement that role, and AI can quite quickly remove those candidates from the pool. But then you do really need someone with experience and an understanding of your organization and an understanding of those candidates to ensure that that bias doesn't, you know, move beyond that initial culling and allow those candidates to progress successfully.
00:23:41
Speaker 1: Do you envisage JACK the future of recruitment where it's sort of like almost a fully automated process from job posting to application to sort of onboarding, where a lot of that is effectively AI augmented, but you know, a lot of it is very automated.
00:24:00
Speaker 3: I mean, there are definitely roles where that is applicable. There are definitely sections of the market where I think that that's definitely a use case to support that narrative. For example, entry level positions. You know, in Australia specifically, traditionally, as I was growing up, everybody worked in either a department store or at in fast food as the kind of their first jobs, and I think those roles are perfect for that kind of automated process once you start getting into the more I guess career centric job positions. I don't believe that AI has a part to play in the entire process. However, it's definitely got benefits along the journey of higher to actually placing that candidate.
00:24:47
Speaker 1: I've heard a bit about I haven't seen an example of it, but sort of pre screening interviews that are done with AI. So it may not even be a recruiter on the call, but someone will be as to log onto a platform as answer a series of questions and in the AI analyzes their responses. Is that something that's becoming more common in the industry?
00:25:09
Speaker 3: It is, so what they're looking at there is typically the is the candidate baseline applicable for that, asking them kind of general questions about you know, who they are, are they a citizen? Are they legally allowed to work? They're also looking at para language, so how the candidate speaks their intonation. It's not just you know, text on a page. Then it's it's you know, are they're confident in how they're talking, which I think rides a pretty fine line around kind of ethics and the use of biometric data in that regard. There's also a bit of retric yet to see any actual numbers on it, but there is retric to say that it is used for screening out candidates in ways that allows certain organizations to be more discriminatory. So as an example, if they're you know, they may not they may need someone who can speak English at a very very high level, and they're using that video platform to help remove candidates from there. Personally, I've gone through an interview process many years ago where they use this technology. They wanted me to do an interview like that, and I flat refused. In my opinion, if I'm interviewing for your organization, interviewing for a role, and I'm giving you that respect, I would expect the same respect in return that I would like to speak to a human being. Because I'm while I'm being interviewed to see if I'm the right fit for your organization, I also want to interview the organization to make sure that it's the right fit for me.
00:26:39
Speaker 1: But what do you do, Cara, when you're applying for a job and these processes are built into the system and you're uncomfortable about it, it's sort of hard to go around them. As maybe even inappropriate to try and go around them.
00:26:53
Speaker 4: I think that's a values question for the individual, and whatever the answer is, I would respect it fundamentally if you don't to engage in a certain process, whether you know and that you know, just just recently our clients are doing more face to face interviews again, and you know, and you know COVID, and immediately post COVID that was more online. So even that change, which is kind of a more traditional change, even that change, we had candidates say, you know, I don't really see the need to go into the organization, you know, I would prefer to do this online, et cetera. So there's always changes and processes and it's up to the candidate to engage or not. I did want to go back back a step if I if I could, because I picked up on your point around when you said that you think you had a really fair shot. You know, there's an ad, you respond to the ad.
00:27:44
Speaker 2: You hope that.
00:27:45
Speaker 4: Everyone had been verified and looked at equally and fairly. And I think a really important part for candidates to remember whether it is fair or not, is that at the point that you're in aging with a recruitment consultant, it's often an engagement that is non exclusive, and so by the nature of that, there's an element of speed and effectiveness that needs to take place. So I would just it's just the realities of that. However, I will say we are working a lot more with clients who are asking us to canvas exclusively, and often we're being retained in this manner, canvas could be multi region. Say, for example, we want you to look in both markets. We're going to utilize you as our exclusive partner. We're going to give you two weeks to run this process. We want you to provide us with a balance shortlist. We would love to see you know, Wahan, their Malori, Pacifica, you know, perhaps it's neurodiverse candidates as well. We'd love to see a longer and more balance shortlist. And so we need to see more leadership like that from our clients as well, to say we're not going to have you go for a race for for eight hours. We're going to partner with you early. We're going to provide you with the full picture, and we're going to enable you to go out and run that process. And when we are working in that manner, we are having a talent incredibly successful results for the client. So that's just another thing to keep in mind as well.
00:29:16
Speaker 1: So whether people like it or not, really you sort of have to be algorithm friendly in terms of the information you're assembling for recruitment companies or employers to look at.
00:29:28
Speaker 2: Jack.
00:29:28
Speaker 1: Do you think you know ultimately we're all going to have to sort of curate our own data sets that fits those requirements, everything from how we design our LinkedIn pages to our websites. You know, like ten twenty years ago, it was all when you were trying to get your website noticed. It was all about search engine optimization. You had to be algorithm friendly when you designed your website. Essentially, we are having to do that now for how we represent ourselves to potential employers.
00:29:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if I wind back the clock to the let's say the nineteen seventies and you went in for a prospective job, you would dress nicely, make sure that you had a haircut, and you're presenting yourself as the best possible self that you can be for that interview and for that engagement. I think that that's just changed over the years into a CV cover letter style presentation. Then LinkedIn came through, and now we're into a different space of curating your image. It's just shifted from a physical space into a more digital one. So you absolutely do need to be curating your online presence and profile, specifically for the future and for roles that you want in five to ten years time. The data that's being harvested now is going to be on the books for quite a long time. And so if you've got social media presence that's not conducive to who you want to be in ten years, you may want to clean that up so that it's not coming back to or a recruiter in ten or fifteen years and they're looking at it going so you said this, but yeah, absolutely, curating your profile, curating who you are and who your presence is. But I think it's very important not to overcurate the point where it's not authentic to who you are and to your own capability, because then you're selling something that is completely misleading. And you know, while we can look at it and say, well, you know, companies and organizations shouldn't be using AI to do this process, you know, in the same token, we should also say the candidates shouldn't be using AI. However, when push comes to shove, it's going to happen in both directions. It's about, you know, do I make myself as ethical as I can be online? Do I make it, you know, present who I am and get hired for what I can present to the world, versus providing some artificially inflated capability statement which in three to six months is going to turn out to completely in your image, especially in the market the size of New Zealand, where word we'll get around quickly.
00:32:04
Speaker 1: And as always I've having hired a few people myself, there's always the you know, what is different, the different approach someone's taken, and which is quite refreshing in a sea of sort of templated cvs you see on LinkedIn, a lot of people in the tech sector are going posting their CV. This is the CV that got me jobs at Google, Uber and Amazon, and they're usually the most basic. One page is so it seems you know all the strategies you can do in that. What what really appeals to people is just give me the basics, state it plainly, don't try and dress it up too much. Is that what you feel, Caro, when you're looking at a pile of cvs, Give it to me simply. You sell yourself on a page.
00:32:47
Speaker 4: Yes, And you know, going back to one of the first things I said, hiring managers and recruitment companies and large organized talent acquisition teams and organizations are just dealing with so much information and so much noise. The more succinct, the more precise and correct. Go to Jack's point as well, don't say things that aren't real because it will be found out at some point throughout the process. The better, whether that's one, two, three pages, you know, you know, it's kind of arguably up for the candidate, but it must be specific.
00:33:19
Speaker 1: And just finally, going back to what you were saying at the start, that the types of projects you're recruiting for are slightly different now and that's the influence of artificial intelligence. And we've been told, you know, the mundane, the manual, the repetitive is going to disappear increasingly. So your skill set needs to be the soft skills around working with others, collaborating, overseeing the AI agent. Things like quality assessments and assurance are really important. So in terms of how you navigate this job market dynamic that is changing, what should I do as a mid forties guy who's been a wordsmith my entire life, but AI is coming for that industry. Should I be going out and doing free courses from MIT and that around prompt engineering and so showing that I have some interest in upskilling in AI. Or should I be doing soft skill type skill development, doing team leading and that sort of thing, what do you need to have on your CV for the algorithm to go? This person is thinking about the future.
00:34:22
Speaker 4: I think in the short term people definitely need to be taking responsibility of upskilling themselves about AI a one hundred percent. I'm currently doing micro credential right now in Disruptive Technology focused on AI with Francis Valentine at Academy X and speaking of you know, journalists there are and the creative industry in general. There are a significant amount of adult students around the forty to fifty year age from the film commission partaking in this cohort. So that is incredibly important that everyone takes responsibility for that, and then in parallel, yes, really thinking about how does that augment your work now so that you can do more of those human lead things. So as an example, at Talent, we're currently kicking off a pilot, you know, looking at some different LMS for the executive team. I've created a baseline for myself to go, this is how much time I spend with my team now and really, you know, in really important conversations, this is how much time I spend with clients right now.
00:35:28
Speaker 2: I'm wanting to now get better at using you.
00:35:31
Speaker 4: Know, these productivity tools etc. So that I can spend more time in front of clients with my team and basically having more impact than before.
00:35:40
Speaker 1: Well, lots of good tips there and some great insights into what's going on in the New Zealand market. Caras, so thanks so much, Thanks so much, Jack for coming on the Business of Tech.
00:35:50
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
00:35:57
Speaker 1: Thanks to Carra Smith and Jack Jorgensen. Really interesting my key takeaways. Really AI is shaking up recruitment on every level, making it more critical than ever to craft a really good CV that's friendly not only to the algorithms but to the humans as well. Who are going to get a shortlisted bunch of cvs and you really want to stand out there. But you know, and this sounds obvious. I know a lot of friends who are simply fired in an application for a job this year and been a bit indignant about not even getting an acknowledgment off it or not making the shortlist. You can't just stop with the application. You need to cultivate your personal brand, tap into networks, start upskilling in the AI and soft skills that are now the real differentiators and show recruiters and companies' perspective employers that you're willing to upskill and reskill. That's what they want to see. The smartest candidates are moving beyond the job board rat race, you know, going to seek and trade me jobs, making direct connections, and showing both technical acumen and genuine human potential. I think in the tech sector, which talent works in, this is all the more important that you have obviously those those technical skills, but you have all the other skills, the soft skills that they want, as well as that aptitude and AI and that willingness to of skill in AI. I think it's really interesting that while recruiters are using AI, they recognize the serious limitations off it for picking who the best fit candidates are going to be. It's sort of refreshing really that Karen and Jack are advocating, you know, the traditional way of doing things, getting out there, hustling, working any angle that will give you an edge. That's it for the Business of Tech this week. Show notes are in the podcast section at business esk dot co dot nz. Thanks so much to our loyal sponsor two degrees No. I'll catch you next Thursday streaming on iHeartRadio. We're your favorite podcast app for another episode of the Business of Time tick catch you then
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by two Degrees Business. I'm Peter Griffin, and this week I'm delving into the future of work, or more precisely, the future of your efforts to get a job, because AI is changing the hiring landscape quicker than you probably think. If you've ever wondered about how algorithms are re shaping who gets noticed in the pile of cvs, or what employers are looking for and recruits in the era of AI, you'll want to keep listening. I'm joined on a business of tech this week by Kara Smith, managing director al tauroa for the global recruitment giant Talent, and Jack Jorgensen, general Manager Data, AI and Innovation at AVOC, the talent owned tech company sort of their sister company that does all the tech underpinning their HR and recruitment efforts. Kara told me that applications are coming into Talent in record numbers at the moment. It's a soft market, so any decent position is attracting huge interest across the recruitment industry. AI is scanning mountains of applications and filtering candidates before a human ever looks at them. So what does that mean for companies trying to find real talent amidst the noise? More importantly, what can job seekers actually do to stand out from the crowd of algorithm optimized cvs. Kara and Jack breakdown why it's no longer enough to just hit apply and why personal branding and proactive networking matter more than ever whether you're hiring, hustling, or just hoping to keep your career future proof. Stick around for some really useful advice. Here's the interview with Carra Smith and Jack Jordansen. Cara and Jack, Welcome to the Business of Tech.
00:01:57
Speaker 2: How are you doing? Very good? Thank you whatever, very good, good morning.
00:02:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're an Australia Jack coming in from Melbourne, so thanks for taking the time. Now you're from Avoc, which is a sister company to Talent, the big recruitment company.
00:02:12
Speaker 3: Yeah that's right. Yeah, we work with Talent on project delivery right.
00:02:15
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're going to get into some of the technical aspects of recruitment and the buzzword at the moment, it really is around artificial intelligence and the impact that is having. But Cara, it would be great for you to give us an overview. You've been at Talent well over a decade now in the recruitment game for at least a couple of decades. Keen to get your perspective on what is going on out there at the moment in the New Zealand market. It has been a tough, tough year, but you're seeing more applications than ever before. And this is what we're sort of hearing as well at Business Desk is that any half decent job that goes up is just mobbed with people. So there's a lot of people, you know, two hundred people sometimes applying from mid grade communications manager role, which is I've just never seen before. A lot of my friends who have been made redundant from journalism are finding themselves you're really missing out on jobs that maybe five years ago they would have got. So can you get your perspective on what's happening with applications and the amounts of decent jobs that are out there and how candidates are sort of navigating this at the moment.
00:03:28
Speaker 4: Well, firstly from a market perspective, you know, I think we all went away at Christmas and we're like, you know, we're going to come back in January and the market's going to have magically rebounded, and.
00:03:40
Speaker 2: Obviously that never happened.
00:03:42
Speaker 4: And look, I'm getting to a point and I believe a lot of our clients are getting to a point where I don't think that's going to happen. I think we need to accept that within reason, this is now our new normal. And therefore, what does that mean for candidates who are looking for jobs?
00:03:59
Speaker 2: So you are.
00:04:00
Speaker 4: Application rates have been on the increase for about actually eighteen months now and continue to climb every month. And anecdotally, you know, our clients are just absolutely swamped with applications, as are we as well. So what that does is it creates I think it creates two things.
00:04:19
Speaker 2: One, it creates an incredible amount of noise in.
00:04:21
Speaker 4: The market, and I think secondly, it creates a false perception that there are lots of fantastically skilled and suitable candidates for the role that you are advertising and recruiting for. And I don't really think that's the case. It's noise. There might be gems within that noise, but we're not in a hugely candidate rich market at the highly skilled area. And when you add the complexity on top of that that obviously from an AI and automation overall digital transformation perspective.
00:04:56
Speaker 2: The skill sets that are needed are really grown very very fast.
00:05:01
Speaker 4: That's changing, right, and people quite simply just don't necessarily have all those skills yet because we haven't been involved in those types of projects yet. So your overall question was what how are candidates? How are they navigating that? Look, I think I still talk to candidates that are overly reliant on job boards, They are overly reliant on applying for a job, and they just leave it at that, and that is just not going to be successful. They must use a multi pronged approach. For a market as small as I'm coming to you from Tamakimkodo, Auckland. So for a market as small as Auckland, for a market as small as New Zealand, your personal brand right now is absolutely everything. Because if a hiring manager opens up their their inbox or their ATS and says sees five hundred cvs whether it's right or wrong, They're going to naturally go who do I know and hear or what partner can I partner with that knows someone that can point me to so the right people or the people they think are right, they might not be right. I guess that's an important part rather than just dealing with all of us noise.
00:06:08
Speaker 1: And look, talent does quite a bit of recruitment in the tech related space, a lot of contract roles, particularly with Microsoft, HP and the like, you recruit for those technology stacks. What are you seeing specifically around tech recruitment? What we're sort of hearing overseas is really the tech industry is eating its own dog food when it comes to artificial intelligence and seeing big efficiencies there in software development and the like, and that is definitely leading to job losses but also slower recruitment as well. As we've always had quite a tight market when it comes to tech talent in New Zealand. It's hard to get really good people and we've leaned on immigration to get the people we need. What are you seeing at the moment specifically in tech.
00:06:52
Speaker 4: Specifically for tech, We're seeing a growing need of what I would say the skills around what's going to be happening is happening with in certain AI initiative, So that could be solutions, architecture, that could be data, that could be governance, that could be people who have advised pilot programs, you know, successfully before into scaling implementations. We're seeing a need for leaders who are change agents. We're seeing quite a lot of reorgit that leadership layer as well. And from a software development perspective, yes, we are kind of seeing a bit of a what I would almost call like a sinking lid recruitment policy. That the new normal or the new desired future state is that people will have leaner teams and you will have software development teams who are far more productive due to you know, advances in certain AI tools, et cetera. And so from again going back to the perspective for the candidate, the candidate themselves really need to be investing in do you have do you understand how to utilize those tools to make yourself more productive?
00:08:01
Speaker 2: And does that change?
00:08:02
Speaker 4: And I think it is changing the nature of So then what does a really good tech candidate do If ultimately you're using tools to do the more commoditized tasks, well, then your real strength is in creativity, problem solving, change management, stakeholder management. And I think that actually is the bigger is the bigger change and is going to be the bigger pressure in the market.
00:08:28
Speaker 2: In order to develop those skills.
00:08:29
Speaker 1: AI is changing every industry. The AI Forum's latest survey of businesses found the number of businesses that said they'd let staff go as a result of AI had double. It's still small, about fourteen percent, but it's also saying it's opening opportunities for existing staff, which goes to your point that the skill set is changing and you need to be ready for that. Jack from your point of view, you know these Karen mentioned these ATS's applicant tracking system which probably fill candidates with drid, you know as they tried to get through with their application and actually get in front of someone. What are these systems and how widely used are they now? Buy big recruiters, Every.
00:09:13
Speaker 3: Big recruit is using it. You've got you know, in the New Zealand market, you know, five hundred applicants going for one posting, straining market, it could be thousands of applicants going for a job posting. And if you're not using a system to try to clear through that volume, then you would have to have you know, thousands of people reviewing CBS for a job posting. So these ATS systems, as a gross simplification of what they do is that they will collect and store applicant information pase that information to look for keywords, and then they score that applicant against the job posting. They then help manage that candidate through the progression of the hiring pipeline, you know, scheduling, interviews, rejection notices. It's a centralized system to manage that component. The end, the recruiting firm will have time to hierometrics the source of hiometrics cost per hiometrics. I think it's important for candidates to understand that they are being put into these systems because from a sheer volume perspective, it just has to be done. Having a CV or a resume that is optimized for those is definitely going to help bring your chances up to the top of the pack. However, there are obviously some caveats and some ethics concerns that kind of play into that as well.
00:10:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the sorts of things these ATIS systems are looking for. Keywords are a key one, so looking for common section headings, formats, things like that, and then you've got optical character recognition. If someone sends into maybe a PDF for something with information and even images and there, the systems can extract that and look at it, and then you've got artificial intelligence there as well, extracting information inferring meaning from the context. In that I guess that's the really interesting one. How well that AI is at among five hundred cvs going, Ah, this person has the hard skills, but also the soft skills that are really going to suit this role.
00:11:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's still got a long way to go in regards to identifying those soft skills, especially so as if I was to look at hiring a candidate or going and putting a CV through myself, I'm not there to focus on the skills that I actually have. Now, I'm there to optimize my CV for a system. So it's more about how do I optimize my ranking as opposed to how do I showcase who I am as an individual? And what that does is those systems are going to start overlooking, you know, potential in candidates, because AI can't identify potential in a human being unconventional candidates, so any transferable skills unique non traditional candidates. You know, if we look at your journalistic colleagues that you mentioning before missing out of jobs that they would have normally gotten in the past. You know, these systems, you know someone may have mentioned two or three things more than them, or they've missed a single keyword on their CV which has de ranked them significantly. But they might be really really good for the job anyway. And AI I don't believe is going to make any major leaps and bounds in this regard in the near future, because even though you do have video analysis that's looking at para language analysis in videos, which obviously rides a very fine ethical line for biometric data collection, it's still not going to be anywhere near as good as a recruiter who knows the candidates, who understands the people, who understands your organization and what the culture is there and what they need as a business, and finding the right balance of the technical or the hard skill sets that are required for that role, but also the person and the mentality behind what that organization needs.
00:13:08
Speaker 1: The logical thing for me, I think, faced with this, God forbid, I have to go out there into the workforce in a soft market at the moment, but I would probably go to chat GPT to write my CV for me and prompt it to create a CV and a cover letter that is going to be optimized for putting my best foot forward. Are candidates doing that, and are you seeing that you starting to see the same sort of tropes and style emerging in cvs and cover letters.
00:13:38
Speaker 2: Yes and no, but it's definitely growing.
00:13:40
Speaker 4: I think what concerns me, and I talk to clients about this all the time, is if everyone starts doing that. I get why we're doing that, because we're trying to hit the matches and we're trying to be higher ranked in an ATS or a job board or maybe even a hiring managers taking fifteen cvs they've received from their recruitment partner and they're going, hey, I'm going to chuck this into my co pilot or something similar, and who would you recommend that I interview. I have no doubt all of these things are happening because quite simply, people are playing with the tools and they're low on time.
00:14:12
Speaker 2: So what worries me.
00:14:14
Speaker 4: Is just the the uniformity that starts to that starts to happen. And so I have to bring it back to a point that I made before that a candidate must take you know, I guess the bull by the horns more. They must have a multi pronged approach. They must be thinking about their network, they must be thinking about their personal brand. They must be thinking about can I can I get an internal referral at that organization as well? You know, so that there it's it can't if I think of it just solely relies on their CV. And if that then becomes solely relying on word matching, whether that's after you've engaged with the recruiter or before you've engaged with a recruiter, that that to me is a concern. So you've got to really think about what are the things that in your control. Another thing I would say, and this might sound a bit funny, when we you know, say, you know, spell check your resume and grammar check everything. I'm starting to almost like the odd grammar, the old grammar mistake. And my parents are teachers and they've drilled the stuff into me my whole life. But you know what, because then you know it's authentic. Then you know it's it's like that's a human being that's written that, and they've made a little mistake. Well, you know, mistakes are human and we kind of want those humans. And then the other thing I would say more to a client is if you're if you are taking cvs and putting it into some kind of ranking system, and if you're only working from that judgment, then you know, tell me the last time you hired someone that was a ten out of ten and hung around a long time, was actually engaged, actually learned a lot. It's not going to be the case. We know when we take a new role, if we've got that edge, if we've got that gap, if we have to learn something, we know, we're more engaged in the hiring manager to gets more out of that candidate as well. So that's the part about potential, that's the part about the full picture, and an ATS is not going to be able to give that to you.
00:16:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the human in the loop is really important. And so what does it look like now for one of your typical agents, you know, potentially looking at for great candidates for it contracting roles for instance. So they're getting hundreds of applicants. So is the system sort of creating a shortlist based on rankings, based on all the things we've been talking about, some of those keywords, some of the AI inference, and then they're wading through a short list of candidates.
00:16:36
Speaker 4: Only if and I'm answering from a talent perspective, now, only if we needed to go to that stage.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: I would call that an escalated search.
00:16:46
Speaker 4: So going back to the fact that over the last quarter, eighty two percent of all of our successful placements have not included a job board ashole, and that's because we every single time a role comes in, we're going to our networks, to the collect actives networks as well. Every contract role that comes into the Talent New Zealand business, we raise it and we go, hey, who do you know? So that networking is so so important. We then go to all of our talent pools, to the people that have contracted with us before, et cetera. And most of the time I would hesitate to say two thirds of the time we.
00:17:23
Speaker 2: Can have a short list from that poll.
00:17:26
Speaker 4: Only then would we need to go outside of that, and that might be for your new your niche skills, you're more in demand skills, et cetera. And then it's probably more direct headhunting. Again, another thing we've actually started doing because again we're trying to fight through that noise and fundamentally give our clients more confidence that they can move on this candidate. It's a real person that we've worked with before, et ceteras. We're actually taking reference checks up front, so we're now going we need more information to give to our clients to say you have done a project like that before that you've you know, what are your strengths to paint the candidate as a human being with real strengths and real potential. That's fundamentally what we're doing right now and with seeing some really good things from it.
00:18:13
Speaker 1: So do you recommend that people who are looking for jobs actually go approach recruitment agencies or companies directly and just say, look, I'm on the lookout for work. I think some people actually go to talent agencies and register themselves with them, so you know, contractors and they likes so that you're on their radar. Is that something that people should definitely in this environment be doing, actually reaching out proactively, even if they don't they're not looking for job today but maybe in the near future.
00:18:43
Speaker 4: Certainly so I would, And this is where I would be using the likes of chat GPT for I would be going, you know, these are my key strengths, these are the types of opportunities I'm looking in for. What recruitment agencies are specialists in that? So if it's in New Zealand talent specialists, tech and transformation recruitment, and then going proactively going to that organization and saying, hey, keen to pop into your office, keen to you know, shout you a cup of coffee. This is the magic of New Zealand right where we're so close and we're we're this kind of community. So you have to use it to your advantage. Really keen to talk to you proactively around the types of opportunities I'm interested in, you know, by strength some of my successful projects, et cetera, and learn about what you're seeing in the market. I would be trying to do everything a little bit in advance because often when we are engaging, well not often every time when we are, when we do receive a role from a hiring manager, we have to move at speed. So that's why we don't always put up an AD because it slows us down. We have to know the people already and we invest a lot of time at talent meeting, you know, candidates ahead of the curve.
00:19:54
Speaker 1: Traditionally, the good thing about applying to a job a job AD is it sort of seemed on the outside anyway like it was going to be a merit based decision. The recruiters would look at a group of people and people they didn't know or expect to apply for this job, and everyone got a fair crack at it. I think a lot of people would feel a little bit dirty, really sort of trying to make approaches over DMS on LinkedIn or whatever. But that's the reality of it. You've got to have this multi prong approach. But Jack from your point of view, with AI now in the loop looking at some of these applications, I guess the real concern for a talent agency for a company is if the system shows bias against someone you know. There have been some high profile cases as a chap in the US. Derek Mobley, he was an IT guy in North Carolina. He applied for over one hundred jobs, didn't get anything, applied to work Day a software company, and got rejected. Man of color with a disability, and he suspected that the system was flagging him as not appropriate. He took that to court. It's ongoing. I think there have been a number of high profile cases like this where people are going I'm getting nowhere and I'm getting eliminated at an early stage. So how do you deal with that from a bias point of view, making sure that you're not the system is not eliminating people who may be really good but on the surface don't seem appropriate.
00:21:21
Speaker 3: If I had an answer to that question, I think I'd be in a different job. So yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. One of the biggest challenges in that is the large language model, specifically so your chat GPT style AI is really opaque in its decision making and so challenging that AI's decision to understand why a particular candidate was rejected is near on impossible. At the moment, there are tools that are being developed to actually understand the chain of thought in a bit of a deeper way. We would have seen in older AIS before the kind of transformer AI model started coming out in twenty seventeen, those decision trees were very static. But with large language models, it is very, very opaque. From a bias perspective, AI doesn't eliminate bias, it almost codifies it. And so if we're looking at the historical data that that AI model has been trained on, and then for a company who is predominantly hired people from let's say MIT, then it's going to prioritize those traits and in turn amplify the bias within the system. It's kind of like an echo effect where it's you know, this person's from MIT, so they get boosted and they get the next person gets boosted because of that. So pulling the bias out of those models and getting them to be a lot more down the middle is a really really big challenge. But on top of that, if you do get it down the middle, then it's going to promote down the middle candidates. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best fit for your role, for what your organization needs. And so I think that there's really two things to consider. First is that AI is fantastic as a use case to pull the wheat from the chaff. So if you've got people who've never worked in that industry before, you know they've had a role that's in supply chain and now they're going for a finance director, you know they might not have the skill sets to complement that role, and AI can quite quickly remove those candidates from the pool. But then you do really need someone with experience and an understanding of your organization and an understanding of those candidates to ensure that that bias doesn't, you know, move beyond that initial culling and allow those candidates to progress successfully.
00:23:41
Speaker 1: Do you envisage JACK the future of recruitment where it's sort of like almost a fully automated process from job posting to application to sort of onboarding, where a lot of that is effectively AI augmented, but you know, a lot of it is very automated.
00:24:00
Speaker 3: I mean, there are definitely roles where that is applicable. There are definitely sections of the market where I think that that's definitely a use case to support that narrative. For example, entry level positions. You know, in Australia specifically, traditionally, as I was growing up, everybody worked in either a department store or at in fast food as the kind of their first jobs, and I think those roles are perfect for that kind of automated process once you start getting into the more I guess career centric job positions. I don't believe that AI has a part to play in the entire process. However, it's definitely got benefits along the journey of higher to actually placing that candidate.
00:24:47
Speaker 1: I've heard a bit about I haven't seen an example of it, but sort of pre screening interviews that are done with AI. So it may not even be a recruiter on the call, but someone will be as to log onto a platform as answer a series of questions and in the AI analyzes their responses. Is that something that's becoming more common in the industry?
00:25:09
Speaker 3: It is, so what they're looking at there is typically the is the candidate baseline applicable for that, asking them kind of general questions about you know, who they are, are they a citizen? Are they legally allowed to work? They're also looking at para language, so how the candidate speaks their intonation. It's not just you know, text on a page. Then it's it's you know, are they're confident in how they're talking, which I think rides a pretty fine line around kind of ethics and the use of biometric data in that regard. There's also a bit of retric yet to see any actual numbers on it, but there is retric to say that it is used for screening out candidates in ways that allows certain organizations to be more discriminatory. So as an example, if they're you know, they may not they may need someone who can speak English at a very very high level, and they're using that video platform to help remove candidates from there. Personally, I've gone through an interview process many years ago where they use this technology. They wanted me to do an interview like that, and I flat refused. In my opinion, if I'm interviewing for your organization, interviewing for a role, and I'm giving you that respect, I would expect the same respect in return that I would like to speak to a human being. Because I'm while I'm being interviewed to see if I'm the right fit for your organization, I also want to interview the organization to make sure that it's the right fit for me.
00:26:39
Speaker 1: But what do you do, Cara, when you're applying for a job and these processes are built into the system and you're uncomfortable about it, it's sort of hard to go around them. As maybe even inappropriate to try and go around them.
00:26:53
Speaker 4: I think that's a values question for the individual, and whatever the answer is, I would respect it fundamentally if you don't to engage in a certain process, whether you know and that you know, just just recently our clients are doing more face to face interviews again, and you know, and you know COVID, and immediately post COVID that was more online. So even that change, which is kind of a more traditional change, even that change, we had candidates say, you know, I don't really see the need to go into the organization, you know, I would prefer to do this online, et cetera. So there's always changes and processes and it's up to the candidate to engage or not. I did want to go back back a step if I if I could, because I picked up on your point around when you said that you think you had a really fair shot. You know, there's an ad, you respond to the ad.
00:27:44
Speaker 2: You hope that.
00:27:45
Speaker 4: Everyone had been verified and looked at equally and fairly. And I think a really important part for candidates to remember whether it is fair or not, is that at the point that you're in aging with a recruitment consultant, it's often an engagement that is non exclusive, and so by the nature of that, there's an element of speed and effectiveness that needs to take place. So I would just it's just the realities of that. However, I will say we are working a lot more with clients who are asking us to canvas exclusively, and often we're being retained in this manner, canvas could be multi region. Say, for example, we want you to look in both markets. We're going to utilize you as our exclusive partner. We're going to give you two weeks to run this process. We want you to provide us with a balance shortlist. We would love to see you know, Wahan, their Malori, Pacifica, you know, perhaps it's neurodiverse candidates as well. We'd love to see a longer and more balance shortlist. And so we need to see more leadership like that from our clients as well, to say we're not going to have you go for a race for for eight hours. We're going to partner with you early. We're going to provide you with the full picture, and we're going to enable you to go out and run that process. And when we are working in that manner, we are having a talent incredibly successful results for the client. So that's just another thing to keep in mind as well.
00:29:16
Speaker 1: So whether people like it or not, really you sort of have to be algorithm friendly in terms of the information you're assembling for recruitment companies or employers to look at.
00:29:28
Speaker 2: Jack.
00:29:28
Speaker 1: Do you think you know ultimately we're all going to have to sort of curate our own data sets that fits those requirements, everything from how we design our LinkedIn pages to our websites. You know, like ten twenty years ago, it was all when you were trying to get your website noticed. It was all about search engine optimization. You had to be algorithm friendly when you designed your website. Essentially, we are having to do that now for how we represent ourselves to potential employers.
00:29:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if I wind back the clock to the let's say the nineteen seventies and you went in for a prospective job, you would dress nicely, make sure that you had a haircut, and you're presenting yourself as the best possible self that you can be for that interview and for that engagement. I think that that's just changed over the years into a CV cover letter style presentation. Then LinkedIn came through, and now we're into a different space of curating your image. It's just shifted from a physical space into a more digital one. So you absolutely do need to be curating your online presence and profile, specifically for the future and for roles that you want in five to ten years time. The data that's being harvested now is going to be on the books for quite a long time. And so if you've got social media presence that's not conducive to who you want to be in ten years, you may want to clean that up so that it's not coming back to or a recruiter in ten or fifteen years and they're looking at it going so you said this, but yeah, absolutely, curating your profile, curating who you are and who your presence is. But I think it's very important not to overcurate the point where it's not authentic to who you are and to your own capability, because then you're selling something that is completely misleading. And you know, while we can look at it and say, well, you know, companies and organizations shouldn't be using AI to do this process, you know, in the same token, we should also say the candidates shouldn't be using AI. However, when push comes to shove, it's going to happen in both directions. It's about, you know, do I make myself as ethical as I can be online? Do I make it, you know, present who I am and get hired for what I can present to the world, versus providing some artificially inflated capability statement which in three to six months is going to turn out to completely in your image, especially in the market the size of New Zealand, where word we'll get around quickly.
00:32:04
Speaker 1: And as always I've having hired a few people myself, there's always the you know, what is different, the different approach someone's taken, and which is quite refreshing in a sea of sort of templated cvs you see on LinkedIn, a lot of people in the tech sector are going posting their CV. This is the CV that got me jobs at Google, Uber and Amazon, and they're usually the most basic. One page is so it seems you know all the strategies you can do in that. What what really appeals to people is just give me the basics, state it plainly, don't try and dress it up too much. Is that what you feel, Caro, when you're looking at a pile of cvs, Give it to me simply. You sell yourself on a page.
00:32:47
Speaker 4: Yes, And you know, going back to one of the first things I said, hiring managers and recruitment companies and large organized talent acquisition teams and organizations are just dealing with so much information and so much noise. The more succinct, the more precise and correct. Go to Jack's point as well, don't say things that aren't real because it will be found out at some point throughout the process. The better, whether that's one, two, three pages, you know, you know, it's kind of arguably up for the candidate, but it must be specific.
00:33:19
Speaker 1: And just finally, going back to what you were saying at the start, that the types of projects you're recruiting for are slightly different now and that's the influence of artificial intelligence. And we've been told, you know, the mundane, the manual, the repetitive is going to disappear increasingly. So your skill set needs to be the soft skills around working with others, collaborating, overseeing the AI agent. Things like quality assessments and assurance are really important. So in terms of how you navigate this job market dynamic that is changing, what should I do as a mid forties guy who's been a wordsmith my entire life, but AI is coming for that industry. Should I be going out and doing free courses from MIT and that around prompt engineering and so showing that I have some interest in upskilling in AI. Or should I be doing soft skill type skill development, doing team leading and that sort of thing, what do you need to have on your CV for the algorithm to go? This person is thinking about the future.
00:34:22
Speaker 4: I think in the short term people definitely need to be taking responsibility of upskilling themselves about AI a one hundred percent. I'm currently doing micro credential right now in Disruptive Technology focused on AI with Francis Valentine at Academy X and speaking of you know, journalists there are and the creative industry in general. There are a significant amount of adult students around the forty to fifty year age from the film commission partaking in this cohort. So that is incredibly important that everyone takes responsibility for that, and then in parallel, yes, really thinking about how does that augment your work now so that you can do more of those human lead things. So as an example, at Talent, we're currently kicking off a pilot, you know, looking at some different LMS for the executive team. I've created a baseline for myself to go, this is how much time I spend with my team now and really, you know, in really important conversations, this is how much time I spend with clients right now.
00:35:28
Speaker 2: I'm wanting to now get better at using you.
00:35:31
Speaker 4: Know, these productivity tools etc. So that I can spend more time in front of clients with my team and basically having more impact than before.
00:35:40
Speaker 1: Well, lots of good tips there and some great insights into what's going on in the New Zealand market. Caras, so thanks so much, Thanks so much, Jack for coming on the Business of Tech.
00:35:50
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
00:35:57
Speaker 1: Thanks to Carra Smith and Jack Jorgensen. Really interesting my key takeaways. Really AI is shaking up recruitment on every level, making it more critical than ever to craft a really good CV that's friendly not only to the algorithms but to the humans as well. Who are going to get a shortlisted bunch of cvs and you really want to stand out there. But you know, and this sounds obvious. I know a lot of friends who are simply fired in an application for a job this year and been a bit indignant about not even getting an acknowledgment off it or not making the shortlist. You can't just stop with the application. You need to cultivate your personal brand, tap into networks, start upskilling in the AI and soft skills that are now the real differentiators and show recruiters and companies' perspective employers that you're willing to upskill and reskill. That's what they want to see. The smartest candidates are moving beyond the job board rat race, you know, going to seek and trade me jobs, making direct connections, and showing both technical acumen and genuine human potential. I think in the tech sector, which talent works in, this is all the more important that you have obviously those those technical skills, but you have all the other skills, the soft skills that they want, as well as that aptitude and AI and that willingness to of skill in AI. I think it's really interesting that while recruiters are using AI, they recognize the serious limitations off it for picking who the best fit candidates are going to be. It's sort of refreshing really that Karen and Jack are advocating, you know, the traditional way of doing things, getting out there, hustling, working any angle that will give you an edge. That's it for the Business of Tech this week. Show notes are in the podcast section at business esk dot co dot nz. Thanks so much to our loyal sponsor two degrees No. I'll catch you next Thursday streaming on iHeartRadio. We're your favorite podcast app for another episode of the Business of Time tick catch you then
